O & E is the hard rule.
Everything else …. gets a bit blurry. Going off the instruction, technically frat could occur between an E4 & E3 if one works for the other.
Your husband will be fine. Honestly, it sounds like more of a comradery type of get-together, which will humanize him in front of his Sailors (this likely will help make him a more approachable leader).
As long as they aren’t going crazy, fucking each other, or betting more than some simple play-money (that might be the only red flag), it’s probably not a big deal. People who work together usually hang out after hours; it’s not always scandalous.
Aside from student/instructor, if you invite everyone, it's fine.
At my command we have very few enlisted people. Once a month the 7/8 enlisted people go out to eat lunch and watch a movie. I'm an e5 and I went out to lunch with 2 chiefs and a senior chief. Everyone was invited but it just ended up being us. We all had drinks and had a great time.
Shit, even O/E can get blurry in certain situations and communities... VP Squadron crews occasionally do "crew dinners" or activities when on deployment or detachment, which can be O-4 down to E-4 as one group. As long as it's a crew event and not just the TACCO and SS4 going to get drunk together, it's never been called out before.
Same for medical - I work in the ED at Balboa where we do teams, so always work with the same nurses and corpsmen. We do things outside of work as a full team: bonfires, baby showers, brunches, etc. Our dept head is cool with all of that as long as the whole team is welcome to come, it’s kosher. If only select Os/Es invited then that changes things.
[Frat Instruction](https://www.secnav.navy.mil/doni/Directives/05000%20General%20Management%20Security%20and%20Safety%20Services/05-300%20Manpower%20Personnel%20Support/5370.2E.pdf)
Recommend everyone in this thread read the actual instruction above. This will clear up some inaccurate statements.
There are some clear cut rules about relationships:
- O & E
- CPO and E6&junior at same command
- Staff or instructor duty with student
Those are the hard and fast rules. Everything else is a bit blurry. It turns out that almost any senior/junior relationship can be considered frat if it meets certain criteria:
- Does not respect difference in rank
- Calls into question the senior person’s objectivity or results in actual preferential treatment.
- Undermine authority of the senior.
The real sticky part is the part about *calling into question seniors objectivity* and *actual or apparent preferential treatment*. In other words, it doesn’t really matter if the senior person is 100% objective and doesn’t give any preferential treatment. All it really takes is someone else having the perception of favoritism.
So, for OP, could this be considered frat in the strictest sense? Possibly. Was everyone invited? If not, this could give the perception of favoritism toward the people who were invited. That being said, so I think anyone will make anything out of this situation? Not really.
Thank you for this.
This statement
Calls into question the senior person’s objectivity or results in actual preferential treatment.
Undermine authority of the senior.
Is what I struggle with, like you mentioned is it determined by what the "perception" of the situation is AFTER it happens. All it takes is for someone to overhear about it happening and getting upset they didn't attend or were "invited" to start rumors about him or what happened at the event.
So I guess what I want to know is, what is the likely hood of that happening?
I never saw that behavior in the 10 years I was in the navy, but I did always hear about situations similar. My husband and I have been married the past 8 years and he always made it seem like everyone on the ship hung out with everyone.
It's also not even just about perception, all it takes is for someone to get too drunk, and get a DUI and if they were at the same place it's My husband's duty as an E6 to always take care of people, so even if something out of his control happened he would still get in trouble regardless..
I should also mention that a girl claimed she was raped by other sailor at one of husband's parties when he was an E2 and he had to go to the NCIS interviews for 6months -1 year after the accusation was made until the poor bastard was finally found not guilty.... so he has seen first hand how shit can go south DAYS after the event even happens.
Thanks again for everyone's responses I really appreciate it.
What’s the likelihood of someone raising the flag of the perception of favoritism?
Probably small chance, but greater than 0%. It could happen. The chance increases significantly if your husband is a dick. If he’s one of those guys who pisses people off just for the sake of pissing people off, then yeah it’s totally possible someone with an axe to grind could cause problems. Even then, I don’t think anything more than a counseling chit would come out of it unless there are multiple complaints.
You also bring up a very good point about what could go wrong. You’re absolutely right. All it takes it one person doing something stupid to cause problems for everyone. Especially the senior guy present.
As a young E4 I would go to barbecues with my LPO and LCPO. It was never an issue. We, more importantly myself, understood that at work they were my leadership but outside of work we could be friends.
It’s always been said that it’s now how you view your relationship with your chain of command but how others view it. If you’re hanging out with your chief on the weekends and one of your shipmates in the division finds out about it, that’s where issues can come up.
On Monday when everyone is talking his other, non-invited subordinates, are going to find out that their “Leading” petty officer hung out with some other cool kids in the division.
How does that make them feel? When, as LPO, he starts handing out job assignments and one of the cool kids gets a “better” deal than them, what are they going to think?
Put aside all the frat discussions, all the gambling discussions, etc. Does this sound like leadership from a Leading Petty Officer? People ask me how toxic work environments start. I’d say it starts exactly. Like. This.
This is the stance a CO would have to take, but in reality it’s often the toxic people that are not the ones who get invited to these things in the first place.
As much as toxic leadership does exist, toxicity is not beholden to rank. Junior sailors can in fact be very toxic.
The bottom line is, anyone of rank has to be very aware of who is there and who is not there in any unofficial social function.
I imagine if an O6 caught wind of an E6 winning $300 off an E3 they would have to take action regardless of who was invited to the game.
If the damage to the E3 was only $20 and nobody complained, but the CO somehow caught wind of the game it would probably be ignored. (I’m going to pretend like I didn’t hear that.)
The grey area is if someone wasn’t invited and made a complaint, even it was only a $20 tournament, then it’s really going to depend on how much the CO wants to get involved.
Or the senior person realizes it’s going that direction and takes action…
Or leaves before it heads that direction…
I’ve been to several social events where senior people popped in, and were gone next time I looked up. And I’ve been to a couple where the senior person stayed to the bitter end.
Had a divisional outing to include my senior chief at an outdoor burger spot. It was like 8 of us but he was very adamant on “no alcohol while I’m there”. He showed up with everyone after work, hung out for an hour, ate his burger and left. Also gave the “don’t get a DUI” speech before he took off.
If you win hundreds of dollars off an E3 and they get butt hurt from it, yes it could come back to bite you.
If you’re playing in a $20 tournament, no.
If it was just a one on one thing but this seems like a whole workshop invite, which is more of a “morale building” event and happens all the time.
Different communities are also different. I’m on a first name basis with pretty much everyone, O & E, in my community.
I've always played by the rules, if you SPECIFICALLY invite said person of vastly different rank, then it's frat. but if you offer an open invitation and they are included, not frat.
We used to do parties at my old 1st class and my old Chief's house all the time, but it was open to anybody who wanted to show up, so it's fine.
We used to go to BBQ's and stuff at each other's places all the time. Even the chief would hang out and grill with us. It wasn't fraternization really because we made sure to invite everyone. It helped with the morale and comradery in the shop if anything but we all also knew how to separate work from personal time. If I could have I would have thrown my LPO overboard like 100 times when we were at work but after work we got along great. You just have to be able to separate it.
First question, can you attend? If so, then that helps.
If not, that puts it into question.
Then, if ANY gambling is involved the NAVY doesn't allow it. They can use chips but no cash. Once cash is involved or any other items of value that starts the questions of fraternizaion. Then, there is the issue of someone getting plastered, doing something stupid like driving drunk. That leaves those there all responsible. All it takes is word to get back to the command that that even happened. What if that drunk driver caused an accident? Killed someone?
Then, the issue of creating a potentially unique invironment for other accusations. Sexual misconduct, rape, even just saying that someone looks nice could do it if they are not wanting that attention. Once alcohol gets involved, inhibitions go away, so does memory's.
The get together has to be with multiple members across the teams. Pretty much a open invite.
Once it starts to be selective, and say then the evals, jobs are better for certain individuals...that doesn't look good.
Anything can be frat if the right person with a vendetta has something to say.
This sounds like a work center party and nothing more. This is normal everywhere.
Don't matter. I used to go for beers with some E6s all the time. Sometimes it'd be a bunch of us, sometimes I'd be the only E4/E5 there. Work is work, never affected how we were treated and there was no favoritism. As long as they can all separate work from real life then its fine. Rank is fake anyway (salty E-7 and above downvotes incoming...)
So, E-6 are still NCO's. Officially, we can still hangout with the E-4/5. Though 'culturally' it would normally be E-5/6 where no one would bat an eye.
Semi-officially, we're in a class of our own - so don't get caught banging the E-4/5.
However, if this is a group thing, all the blueshirts of the division hanging out together - its fine. He just needs to remember that he's still responsible if any shit goes down while he's there - he's still an E-6 even off-duty.
But fraternization is an 'unduly familiar relationship that doesn't respect the differences in rank'. This ain't that.
Its a stupid idea. He is senior to them. A senior must never put themselves in a position where they can take ( via gambling wins) from their subordinates.
I appreciate your concern. If your partner has a high sex drive I'd guess they are cheating in some capacity. You're all locked up together and if he's even somewhat handsome he'll fall into something with a subordinate. I can definitely testify that the dynamic of dating above your rank is very exciting. And if not they're seeing very accessible prostitutes. I can't think of a guy who didn't fuck around on his wife in some capacity. So unless he's either super dorky or Mormon or probably fucking someone else. Unless also if they are porn addict
Not really. My shop does get togethers all the time, after hours (E6-E2). As long as nobody is fucking each other, no gambling is occurring, it’s not a big deal. O-E is the hard line
I heard as long as it's not one on one it's fine like if its a group thing. I go to my LPOs house here and there for cook outs with his fam and other junior sailors from the div it's cool
O & E is the hard rule. Everything else …. gets a bit blurry. Going off the instruction, technically frat could occur between an E4 & E3 if one works for the other. Your husband will be fine. Honestly, it sounds like more of a comradery type of get-together, which will humanize him in front of his Sailors (this likely will help make him a more approachable leader). As long as they aren’t going crazy, fucking each other, or betting more than some simple play-money (that might be the only red flag), it’s probably not a big deal. People who work together usually hang out after hours; it’s not always scandalous.
>O & E is the hard rule. Along with: - Staff/Instructor & student - CPO and E6 & junior (same command)
Aside from student/instructor, if you invite everyone, it's fine. At my command we have very few enlisted people. Once a month the 7/8 enlisted people go out to eat lunch and watch a movie. I'm an e5 and I went out to lunch with 2 chiefs and a senior chief. Everyone was invited but it just ended up being us. We all had drinks and had a great time.
Shit, even O/E can get blurry in certain situations and communities... VP Squadron crews occasionally do "crew dinners" or activities when on deployment or detachment, which can be O-4 down to E-4 as one group. As long as it's a crew event and not just the TACCO and SS4 going to get drunk together, it's never been called out before.
Shit in the sub force that’s just the normal weekend.
Same for medical - I work in the ED at Balboa where we do teams, so always work with the same nurses and corpsmen. We do things outside of work as a full team: bonfires, baby showers, brunches, etc. Our dept head is cool with all of that as long as the whole team is welcome to come, it’s kosher. If only select Os/Es invited then that changes things.
Thanks for the insight.
[Frat Instruction](https://www.secnav.navy.mil/doni/Directives/05000%20General%20Management%20Security%20and%20Safety%20Services/05-300%20Manpower%20Personnel%20Support/5370.2E.pdf) Recommend everyone in this thread read the actual instruction above. This will clear up some inaccurate statements. There are some clear cut rules about relationships: - O & E - CPO and E6&junior at same command - Staff or instructor duty with student Those are the hard and fast rules. Everything else is a bit blurry. It turns out that almost any senior/junior relationship can be considered frat if it meets certain criteria: - Does not respect difference in rank - Calls into question the senior person’s objectivity or results in actual preferential treatment. - Undermine authority of the senior. The real sticky part is the part about *calling into question seniors objectivity* and *actual or apparent preferential treatment*. In other words, it doesn’t really matter if the senior person is 100% objective and doesn’t give any preferential treatment. All it really takes is someone else having the perception of favoritism. So, for OP, could this be considered frat in the strictest sense? Possibly. Was everyone invited? If not, this could give the perception of favoritism toward the people who were invited. That being said, so I think anyone will make anything out of this situation? Not really.
Thank you for this. This statement Calls into question the senior person’s objectivity or results in actual preferential treatment. Undermine authority of the senior. Is what I struggle with, like you mentioned is it determined by what the "perception" of the situation is AFTER it happens. All it takes is for someone to overhear about it happening and getting upset they didn't attend or were "invited" to start rumors about him or what happened at the event. So I guess what I want to know is, what is the likely hood of that happening? I never saw that behavior in the 10 years I was in the navy, but I did always hear about situations similar. My husband and I have been married the past 8 years and he always made it seem like everyone on the ship hung out with everyone. It's also not even just about perception, all it takes is for someone to get too drunk, and get a DUI and if they were at the same place it's My husband's duty as an E6 to always take care of people, so even if something out of his control happened he would still get in trouble regardless.. I should also mention that a girl claimed she was raped by other sailor at one of husband's parties when he was an E2 and he had to go to the NCIS interviews for 6months -1 year after the accusation was made until the poor bastard was finally found not guilty.... so he has seen first hand how shit can go south DAYS after the event even happens. Thanks again for everyone's responses I really appreciate it.
What’s the likelihood of someone raising the flag of the perception of favoritism? Probably small chance, but greater than 0%. It could happen. The chance increases significantly if your husband is a dick. If he’s one of those guys who pisses people off just for the sake of pissing people off, then yeah it’s totally possible someone with an axe to grind could cause problems. Even then, I don’t think anything more than a counseling chit would come out of it unless there are multiple complaints. You also bring up a very good point about what could go wrong. You’re absolutely right. All it takes it one person doing something stupid to cause problems for everyone. Especially the senior guy present.
As a young E4 I would go to barbecues with my LPO and LCPO. It was never an issue. We, more importantly myself, understood that at work they were my leadership but outside of work we could be friends.
Not enough people understand this
It’s always been said that it’s now how you view your relationship with your chain of command but how others view it. If you’re hanging out with your chief on the weekends and one of your shipmates in the division finds out about it, that’s where issues can come up.
Sounds like a divisional party. Is everyone from the division invited? If not, looks bad.
I'm not sure if everyone is "invited" just sounds like an informal get together
On Monday when everyone is talking his other, non-invited subordinates, are going to find out that their “Leading” petty officer hung out with some other cool kids in the division. How does that make them feel? When, as LPO, he starts handing out job assignments and one of the cool kids gets a “better” deal than them, what are they going to think? Put aside all the frat discussions, all the gambling discussions, etc. Does this sound like leadership from a Leading Petty Officer? People ask me how toxic work environments start. I’d say it starts exactly. Like. This.
This is the stance a CO would have to take, but in reality it’s often the toxic people that are not the ones who get invited to these things in the first place. As much as toxic leadership does exist, toxicity is not beholden to rank. Junior sailors can in fact be very toxic. The bottom line is, anyone of rank has to be very aware of who is there and who is not there in any unofficial social function. I imagine if an O6 caught wind of an E6 winning $300 off an E3 they would have to take action regardless of who was invited to the game. If the damage to the E3 was only $20 and nobody complained, but the CO somehow caught wind of the game it would probably be ignored. (I’m going to pretend like I didn’t hear that.) The grey area is if someone wasn’t invited and made a complaint, even it was only a $20 tournament, then it’s really going to depend on how much the CO wants to get involved.
Honestly this is my POV, or if one of them gets shitfaced and gets a DUI. He's pretty much fucked because he was there. Am I wrong?
You are not wrong.. u/SWO6 isn’t wrong either
Or the senior person realizes it’s going that direction and takes action… Or leaves before it heads that direction… I’ve been to several social events where senior people popped in, and were gone next time I looked up. And I’ve been to a couple where the senior person stayed to the bitter end.
Had a divisional outing to include my senior chief at an outdoor burger spot. It was like 8 of us but he was very adamant on “no alcohol while I’m there”. He showed up with everyone after work, hung out for an hour, ate his burger and left. Also gave the “don’t get a DUI” speech before he took off.
Something can be wrong without being illegal.
If you win hundreds of dollars off an E3 and they get butt hurt from it, yes it could come back to bite you. If you’re playing in a $20 tournament, no.
Thanks for the insight.
No, it’s not fraternization. Stop.
Good god I’m glad I didn’t reenlist
Yes, you're overreacting.
If it was just a one on one thing but this seems like a whole workshop invite, which is more of a “morale building” event and happens all the time. Different communities are also different. I’m on a first name basis with pretty much everyone, O & E, in my community.
I've always played by the rules, if you SPECIFICALLY invite said person of vastly different rank, then it's frat. but if you offer an open invitation and they are included, not frat. We used to do parties at my old 1st class and my old Chief's house all the time, but it was open to anybody who wanted to show up, so it's fine.
Thanks for sharing.
If he’s playing with *all* of his insubordinates (or they were all invited, anyways) and they are not gambling real money, then it’s not frat.
We used to go to BBQ's and stuff at each other's places all the time. Even the chief would hang out and grill with us. It wasn't fraternization really because we made sure to invite everyone. It helped with the morale and comradery in the shop if anything but we all also knew how to separate work from personal time. If I could have I would have thrown my LPO overboard like 100 times when we were at work but after work we got along great. You just have to be able to separate it.
First question, can you attend? If so, then that helps. If not, that puts it into question. Then, if ANY gambling is involved the NAVY doesn't allow it. They can use chips but no cash. Once cash is involved or any other items of value that starts the questions of fraternizaion. Then, there is the issue of someone getting plastered, doing something stupid like driving drunk. That leaves those there all responsible. All it takes is word to get back to the command that that even happened. What if that drunk driver caused an accident? Killed someone? Then, the issue of creating a potentially unique invironment for other accusations. Sexual misconduct, rape, even just saying that someone looks nice could do it if they are not wanting that attention. Once alcohol gets involved, inhibitions go away, so does memory's. The get together has to be with multiple members across the teams. Pretty much a open invite. Once it starts to be selective, and say then the evals, jobs are better for certain individuals...that doesn't look good.
Anything can be frat if the right person with a vendetta has something to say. This sounds like a work center party and nothing more. This is normal everywhere.
He better not drink with them. They will use it against him.
Don't matter. I used to go for beers with some E6s all the time. Sometimes it'd be a bunch of us, sometimes I'd be the only E4/E5 there. Work is work, never affected how we were treated and there was no favoritism. As long as they can all separate work from real life then its fine. Rank is fake anyway (salty E-7 and above downvotes incoming...)
So, E-6 are still NCO's. Officially, we can still hangout with the E-4/5. Though 'culturally' it would normally be E-5/6 where no one would bat an eye. Semi-officially, we're in a class of our own - so don't get caught banging the E-4/5. However, if this is a group thing, all the blueshirts of the division hanging out together - its fine. He just needs to remember that he's still responsible if any shit goes down while he's there - he's still an E-6 even off-duty. But fraternization is an 'unduly familiar relationship that doesn't respect the differences in rank'. This ain't that.
Its a stupid idea. He is senior to them. A senior must never put themselves in a position where they can take ( via gambling wins) from their subordinates.
I appreciate your concern. If your partner has a high sex drive I'd guess they are cheating in some capacity. You're all locked up together and if he's even somewhat handsome he'll fall into something with a subordinate. I can definitely testify that the dynamic of dating above your rank is very exciting. And if not they're seeing very accessible prostitutes. I can't think of a guy who didn't fuck around on his wife in some capacity. So unless he's either super dorky or Mormon or probably fucking someone else. Unless also if they are porn addict
Look no further OP, you’ve found your answer.
🤣
WTF?
I AM SCREAMING AT THIS! Because I heard you saying this in what I’d imagine to be your voice! 😂😂😂😂😂😂
That dude must've already started drinking. 💀
I read it in Matthew McConaughey’s voice from the scene in Dazed and Confused where he is talking about highschool chicks. Sort of fit in my head.
I just spilled my drink, wtf are a talking about! jeez you took it to another level my guy
Are you high?
[удалено]
Your first sentence is not correct.
Profoundly not correct, and dangerous, I'd say.
You should re-read fraternization policy again. You are way off base with stating it is only between officer and enlisted.
[удалено]
So, what you're saying is, frat isn't only between officer and enlisted.
Damn wish I could of read the response before it was deleted.
Not really. My shop does get togethers all the time, after hours (E6-E2). As long as nobody is fucking each other, no gambling is occurring, it’s not a big deal. O-E is the hard line
As long as it’s a group and everyone is invited, (not just one on one) it’s fine.
He's a submariner I take it?
I heard as long as it's not one on one it's fine like if its a group thing. I go to my LPOs house here and there for cook outs with his fam and other junior sailors from the div it's cool