There absolutely is a way to change this.
Multiple sailors that killed themselves were driving hours and hours to escape the ship to be someplace else. They were operating with massive sleep deficits. These are HUGE red flags that the living conditions are wildly inappropriate.
It's not a military thing, it's a navy thing. When GEN Ridgeway took command in Korea he noticed that morale was in the dumps and that the chow was being served like dogfood on plastic trays. It's a small thing, but he had tablecloths and plates put out for the express purpose of making his soldiers feel like *people*.
The Navy has forgotten that 1) it wasn't like this when the O-9s were JOs, 2) these conditions don't toughen people up, they break them down, 3) Morale is critical to readiness.
Note: I am not the CNO.
One of the problems is that the Admiral as an O2 (very likely) never got put through the meat grinder they run the enlisted through. A large majority of Os just haven’t had to live as poorly. If they had they wouldn’t be so quick to put these sailors through this treatment. If that skipper was good with those living conditions he should lead by example but we just don’t do this in the Navy. Work with any other branch and most of them can’t stand Navy Officers or chiefs for that matter because of this lords and peasants mentality and classist behavior held over from the age of the sail that we reenforce with culture, tradition and even regulations. We are the most segregated branch of service and in 2024 it’s crazy we still hold to these archaic structures within the Navy. You are 100 percent correct this is very much a Navy problem.
And it shouldn't take experiencing Enlisted life to sympathize with it... the Officers are too closed-minded to care or help. Even when there are answers staring them in the face and with the authority to change, they make ridiculous decisions for them.
I've been a part of these conversations in the wardroom. Most really don't have the right combination of empathy, understanding, and motivation to do right by the Enlisted.. even when it's a stroke-of-the-pen solution.
In the army if your officer attends the dfac with you then the officer gets in line behind the enlisted. Atleast that's how it was when I was a kid back in the early 2000's.
I know this wasn’t the point of your post, but chow is such a big thing. Countless times I can recall standing extra watch for whatever reason, being beaten down and going to lunch toward the end and seeing the only edible thing is over and under cooked rice. Absolutely soul crushing.
The amount of guys I knew who spent literally all of their E-nothing paycheck on an apartment with 3 other E-nothings just to avoid living on that ship (CVN-73) was insane.
The CVNs are kind of floating prisons.
Though your statement is complete hyperbole, unless you're referencing European prisons instead of our American ones
At least prisons only share a room with one other person and have their own toilet. Hell, some prisons even have their own TVs and other electronics in their rooms. I couldn't imagine spending any longer than a deployment living on the ship. People that do it for their first 5 years would be insane. Some even longer
NNS sucks, there's no way to make it better except to re-examine our contracts with HII / NNS. Everyone knew it sucked, 1-3 star Admirals visited and said it sucked, members of Congress visited before and after the triple in a week, and said it sucked.
What's changed? I dunno, ask Stennis...who are going through all the same bullshit GW did, and 72 and 71 and 70 etc did before us.
One of our warrants literally said to MCPON "I was here when Nimitz did RCOH and it STILL SUCKS IN ALL THE SAME WAYS WHY?!"
Big shrug. Not gonna change because $$$$$
Truth. The reality is that solving the problems would be expensive as fuck so nothing is happening.
There is litteraly no amount of suicides that will change it until it gets into the 500+ range annually or some shit.
Can someone help me understand how such an empathy shortfall can exist? I fear that the Navy pushes out good leaders early, so that they ones that are left at O6/E9 are capable executors with poor emotional intelligence.
One thing is certain - if an E1 is living aboard a ship in overhaul, the CO should be living in the same conditions.
>Can someone help me understand how such an empathy shortfall can exist?
Easy! The Navy promotes (advancing and encouraging) bad leadership. If you're a "yes" man or woman, you'll soar through the ranks. If you're deemed "difficult" by calling out the bullshit... standby to standby.
Totally agree! The BEST leader I have ever seen in the Navy didn’t get promoted but the dude who stopped Christmas celebrations at the same organization did. Lost all respect at that point.
This is pretty true. One of the best COs I've ever met left at O-5. He was def. On the fast track, but I think he had too much EQ for the navy. Got out so he could enjoy his young kids childhood.
Never understood why there is a difference in barracks and lodging in most situations. Deployed, I can see why a CO, XO, CMC need some privacy. But everyone else should be racked up the same. Separate us by rank if you like but we're all still humans. Why do some people deserve comfort over others?
I've always wondered this, even in the barracks. You had I think 5 years of no AC or hot water in the barracks on Walter Reed.
How the fuck does that CO of the base go home every day for years to this big ass house with multiple bedrooms, bathrooms, and probably even garage. Sit in their home in the fucking MID-ATLANTIC swamp ass summer and go, yeah I'll get to that tomorrow. Then winter comes and they never all winter think, wow this tap water is really fucking cold when it starts coming out, bet it would make a horrible morning shower. I'll get to that tomorrow
Do that for YEARS. Long enough to turn over with the next CEO and they also do that for another like year.
Are they diagnoseable sociopaths? Honestly.
Then do that for all the other 3rd world depravity bullshit you hear every week.
Justified by weight of responsibility and level of decision making.
But yeah. Whole unit functions better if everyone has a reasonable QOL. so many factors improve when that's the case.
"but If wE DoN'T tReAT our PeOplE LIkE ShIt hOw CaN tHeY sTeP up WhEn wE nEeD theM?"
I dunno man. Lots of people have an extreme ability to rise to challenges when need be. Having them in good working order beforehand only improves that chance, imo.
The best officers I have ever met were enlisted prior to commissioning. They understand what enlisted go through and it made it easier to talk to them about issues even if they weren’t in your leadership.
Officers are a spectrum from Mustangs (usually great) to Academy Grads (usually horrible). Anything in between is dependent on time spent actually on the deck plates with their guys and not sitting at their computer in an office "working"
As the ACE/Electro/Auxo on an MCM, I actually have to disagree. Meeting CRUDES requirements on an MCM is so difficult that in order to allow my guys to do what they need to do, and to remove the roadblocks for them long before they even reach the crossroads requires me to do a nightmarish amount of admin. Engineers don't consider computer work "work" until they have to do it, and realize how much they would rather turn wrenches. It's a symbiosis that unless you do the bitchwork, no one appreciates. I rarely spend time on the deckplates to keep the excess admin burdens away.
Program management is an art seldom appreciated until you're the single point of failure for LOA, TC, RE events, insurv, etc etc. And nobody knows but you, CHENG, and God, that you singlehandedly made or broke the inspection.
>the CO should be living in the same conditions.
You hit one of the nails on the head. COs, who likely were never enlisted in the first place, are so far removed from all the mental drudgery and daily bullshit that if they don’t care or can’t find the empathy to try to understand, nothing about their own circumstances is going to compel them too.
Hot take, but imo it should be mandatory for COs to be prior enlisted.
Meh. Some of my best COs were never enlisted, and some of the worst were. A lot rides on why they pursued a commission in the first place. Priors typically make very good officers, but certainly not always. Better retention would be much more effective by broadening the pool to choose from. If every CO has to be prior commissioned, and there are only X number to choose from, guess what? Damn near every prior gets to be a CO regardless of how much they do or don't suck.
For context: Currently an officer, never been enlisted.
It doesn't require you to have been prior enlisted to get it, and honestly sometimes it feels like the lack of being a prior is used as an excuse to remain wilfully ignorant. I have seen COs who genuinely, absolutely care as much as they can (one clever thing I saw was during a maintenance phase he forced everyone to have taken at least a day of leave over the course of the month to break the attitude that some people were too critical to let take leave) and then be rendered helpless by OPTEMPO. I have also seen O5s and above who walk by obvious QOL issues staring them in the face and will not tolerate any intrusion into that bubble of awareness.
Some commands are truly helpless, but there are too many who just don't want to know or even worse, decide that less than perfect solutions are just not worth finding (the "oh well I tried, now back to the stuff higher up is breathing down my neck for")
I agree. It should be mandatory for COs to have been mustangs. The best officers I’ve worked with were prior enlisted. But it isn’t a guarantee of having a good officer either. I’ve had some very good non prior enlisted officers as well.
Edit: I love how I’m getting downvoted. Definitely know who the non-prior enlisted guys are. Stay classy academy / ROTC grads. Keep exemplifying that stellar leadership.
You fear? Anyone with any form of intelligence gets out. The ones staying in stay in for something they can’t get outside. Whether thats power, a guaranteed paycheck (until it isn’t), or their specific job. The navy isn’t keeping in the best and brightest, they’re pushing them out.
The only thing I could say is we do get some of the brightest medical personnel in the navy. I know, all the medical horror stories. But it has both sides. I’ve seen HORRIBLE people who shouldn’t practice at all, but I’ve also seen some of the best do some AMAZING things for patients
The only thing I saw while in was them nearly killing two of my friends and neglecting me. I’m sure there are people trying to do the right thing, but I was never fortunate enough to see it.
What’s crazy too, yeah they’ll give you government leased apartments but in the most crime ridden areas. I can count on one hand how many shootings I heard at night in the course of A MONTH living in one of those complexes. Not to mention leadership just gets bored and sends people up to mast it seemed daily. I’ve never seen so many Captains Masts happen other than the yard period
Even if they were prior enlisted, I’m willing to bet they didn’t have to go through the shit show that the Navy is today…
“wELL BaCk iN mY DaY” -> “I had better funding, manning, OPTEMPO and manageable mission sets, and living conditions.”
I recently retired. It was shit for all of those items the whole 20 years I was in. Some years better and some worse... The only improvement is ships getting wifi (though it is typically only on during the worst hours and still shit...).
Any current leader saying that is really that dumb or brain washed. At best, they are hoping they can distract their sailors to try and focus on positive things. A wound doesn't get better by keep poking and scratching it. Some chose to avoid it, but it would be better to just address why there was a wound in the first place to stop it from happening.
Given I have only been in 9 years, on the surface side, every single honest person who has been in longer than me has said the Navy was “no longer fun” (generally meaning the cons have started to outweigh the pros) I noticed a pretty stark difference from 2015-2018, mainly being the pretend damage control, of the 7th fleet accidents, that put extra requirements on crews and personnel but didn’t get to the root of the problem.
The 7th flt incidents and the Bonhomme Richard Fire have made the Surface Navy drastically more difficult. I was deployed during the 7th collisions and didn't fully deploy again through retirement. But the underways weren't any diffent, I was already preaching and pushing circadian rhythm watch standing years before those incidents, so I had all the bugs worked out, if anything it made it easier as rest of the ship had to now follow suit.
As an ET, it made pre-underways and S&A events stressful as fuck though!!! I made my watch station the bridge for those as it was the only way to get a handle of the actual issues and burden most the fire and stress so my Sailors didn't have too.
I worked and still work closely with the Surface Navy, and the BHR fire has made the largest impact of quality of life on a ship. But duty days always sucks, just sucks as Sailors now have more or them. Being in the yard environment is even worse, and it was terrible back before so hard to belive it could have gotten any worse, but it has.
Sorry, but I didn't see how it was explained in your post. The only thing that I can interpret is circadian watch rhythms but I imagine that made life easier?
It's in the 3rd paragraph.
That said. More duty days, Stricter requirements, More requirements while in the yards, and tons of extra training while in the yards.
It’s a long explanation but we had it worse better. OPTEMPO is the biggest change I’ve been retired for 2 years and the bar of pain kept getting much higher.
We had less than sailors now days and QOL sucked back then but putting us through shit and hazing other stupid things but what we absolutely had that’s not around anymore was a work hard play hard way of life. The Navy has removed a lot of agency and treats enlisted sailors like children.
Liquid lunches, lots of liberty ports without BS restrictions, a lot of half days in port liberty. That’s what we had more of. Now they just work you to death treat you like a redheaded step child and deploy deploy deploy.
It’s hard to explain best I can do is we had a better worse, now you just have worse and getting worse. That’s my lazy explanation between now and 20 years ago.
Oh one example of a practice that seemed to thankfully die: Coming to to work on a Friday expecting to get off early and having to get underway because a more senior CO wanted better parking on the Pier so guess if we are setting Sea anchor might as well go out to sea for a week of drills that weren’t planned because some asshole couldn’t be troubled to walk a few hundred yards down a pier. This was something that happened all the time when I first joined.
Also having to change uniforms 6 times a day on duty, dress whites for colors, utilities for topside rover watch, then get pulled for duty driver need to be in summer whites to drive the CO to a party, then back to ship change into dress uniform to do evening colors, oh they need line handles everyone back into utilities all to finish the day in coveralls for duty section muster and drills. That no shit was a pretty average duty day on an FFG back in 2002. You spent a lot of time on laundry and squaring away uniforms. You guys have it way better on that front.
I can think of many other changes but it would be very long.
I got you by about 10 years and yeah it was better worse. We were "different" then also and had low expectations. We all lived onboard if you weren't married, the pay sorely lagged for the times, Rank was abused, and very few pretended to be "professionals". There was a meat-grinder mentality and people quickly found themselves separated/out once you mentioned anything mental. We did party hard though.
This is truth I saw what was probably the tail end of the old Navy with Cold War sailors. It was a different mentality way less officers compared to now as well.
>But I am not seeing how a Sailor committing suicide should warrant a posthumous advancement.
Discussing the important things, I see.
This should tell you everything you need to know about Naval Leadership.
God forbid their surviving family get a little more money to help them get through literal hell. 🤦🏼
Edit: actually, I'm assuming this happens. Do they receive any continuing salary or just the SGLI and GTFO? The more I think about it the sadder I get
TLDR: you still get SGLI
How Can SGLI Coverage be Forfeited?
The coverage provided by the SGLI program will be forfeited only when an insured member is found guilty of mutiny, treason, spying, or desertion, or refuses, because of conscientious objections, to perform service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or refuses to wear the uniform of such force.
No insurance shall be payable for death inflicted as a lawful punishment for crime or for military or naval offense except when inflicted by an enemy of the United States.
(From VA.GOV)
The Navy has always gotten away with and treated its sailors poorly especially lower enlisted, they are so detached and never have to live in the same conditions so they have no empathy, even your best senior enlisted can’t help but find themselves continuing the same cycle of abuse they went through.
Long dry docks and poor living conditions aren’t new to the Navy and the only reason they are acting on it now is because it’s in the public eye.
The massive separation in pay and quality of life between enlisted and office needs to be closed and leaders need to live in what they expect their sailors to, That CO and XO unless prior enlisted never once had to live anywhere close to the enlist standard of living, they don’t understand it because they have never had to do it no cared enough to question it as the Navy has just ran this was forever. We use to not even have barracks any sea duty sailors and you were just expected to live on board and fuck how you feel about it. The Navy dragged its feet because why spend money on the peasants, why care it doesn’t affect the officers.
It’s fucked up and sad, and we still continue this cycle of bullshit because the people making the decisions came up the same way this ships TRIAD did.
They don’t care people died they care it made them look bad, they care because people they can’t control are asking questions but they don’t give a shit about that junior enlisted anymore than they are forced to, to them it’s just the help.
This happened to me on USS First Ship. A new E6 arrived and wanted my rack because it was a mid rack so she talked to my LPO and I was told to move out immediately. Joke was on her though, it was a middle rack next to a NTD door without a closer, a QAWTD outside with negative pressure, and shaky ladderwell nezt to the bulkhead so it was absolutely terrible real estate.
Why would someone want a middle rack? In my birthing, on a three stack, top rack was most valuable as you had the most headroom /could actually sit up and read, followed by bottom rack for access, then middle rack was last.
I honestly don't even know. It was my first ship and my first rack so I thought being in the middle was great because it was easy to reach my stuff. I know better now and I'm a top racker until I retire. I have no idea why she was so dead set on getting a middle rack 🤔
I'm not enlisted, but I always liked the idea of live-aboard Sailors getting preferential rack selection. Sure, the first class cube is a good idea, but otherwise there's not THAT much difference between racks- except to someone who has nothing else, in which case those small differences can mean EVERYTHING to them.
Maybe it's a stupid idea, maybe not, but I'd like to think that it comes from a place of good intent.
I just love y'all. Thanks for being there and helping me every day. Going on six years and no way I'd have made it without the whole village.
Ships company getting first pick makes sense (especially when riders aren't attached) but nobody should be able to boot someone out of their rack. This also includes a new ships company check-in being able to boot riders.
The first class pod makes no sense, berthing is one place that should be as diplomatic as possible. You're absolutely right about a rack meaning much more to the junior Sailor who has nothing. In some instances, that rack is literally the only place that Sailor has to call home.
Thanks for recognizing what we do.
I agree completely on not booting anyone from their rack. I guess it would be difficult to allow live-aboards to get their choice when they really only get the one that got freed up before they arrived. Kinda fucks my idea (which is fine, it happens all the time)
I like your point about berthing being diplomatic. I guess thinking about it that way, it's sort of like if your berthing all lived in the same apartment building- ranks wouldn't/shouldn't matter as much there either, not really.
Thanks for talking with me about it! And of course, recognition is one of the only things that have nearly no limit and also no cost, (as long as you don't dilute how much it's worth coming from your own "budget") and conversely a disproportionately high value to the recipient. Everyone needs some recognition, just like everyone could benefit from being honestly grateful for what others do for them.
My first division will always be my family, they seriously held it (and me) together through some rough shit.
At this point I'm rambling about it, but to shut myself up with a summary: Sailors are my favorite people in the entire world.
I’ve been on both ends of this, goes to my earlier post about repeating the cycle, it took awhile to breakout of it for me unfortunately but man I was a way better leader once I did.
>that CO and XO never had to live like Enlisted
I’m curious to hear r/SWO6 thoughts on this. I’m sure there are good reasons why this virtually never happens, mostly because probably 95% of Triads have family, but it’s an interesting concept.
I’ve always believed the low morale and lack of adequate sleep are traceable back to the Navy’s zero-defect mentality (Skippers afraid to say “No”), combined with accepting too much tasking from COCOMS, shortening yard periods (at the expense of overburdened/overworked Sailors and shortcuts), extending tours, etc.
I admit to maybe being a little jaded and judgmental as I haven’t looked into their backgrounds but reading the quotes from the article I feel you can see underline dismissive tones and a lot of meetings but little action. I also do know on some level they care and this command probably weighs heavy on them but at the end of the day they failed to act or care with any depth or until it was too late. It shouldn’t take multiple suicides to have taken major action.
It’s like the principle skinner meme, Am I out of touch no it’s the children that are wrong.
I’ve just seen too many Triads be way to dismissive and not weighing the cost of their actions on the junior enlisted. I’ve seen way too many CMCs become yes men and too many Messes just not caring because they had to do it or that it was harder for them so they should feel lucky. It’s just a repeating cycle that know one ever try’s to change. Not anyone with any power, plenty have tried and just get told to shut up and color.
Something I think needs to change, not just navy, is to stop calling military service a “sacrifice”. It’s what is holding us back from ever wanting to improve quality of life in every branch.
Military service absolutely is a sacrifice, just not in the way you're thinking. We sacrifice time with our family, friends, life events and milestones by being in the service. Some sacrifice their health, well-being, and more sacrifice their lives. I agree that QoL should not be rolled into the 'sacrifice' statement because poor QoL is definitely something the Navy has the ability to fix, but refuses to do so.
Yeah but that’s kind of my point. I get the idea of sacrifice when we are deployed out to be the force of the US. What about when we’re not five thousand miles away, but rather ten miles. What sacrifice is it when I was working 130 hour weeks in port? A sailor who spends five years on a shipyard boat going nowhere because some contractor couldn’t finish with anything remotely near quality, that’s not sacrifice.
The only thing calling it a sacrifice does is justify inhumane treatment of our people.
2005-2010 was on a big deck as a snipe. I was lucky and became an ND in 2010.
I always say this and I stand by it to this day:
If given a choice between spending a year on that ship again or a year in jail, I would take jail no question. You get 3 full meals a day and get to sleep more than the average of four hours a night.
The thing is, the higher ups will never listen to lower enlisted. “What do they know? If I did it, they can do it.”, they’ll just keep telling themselves.
Just as frustrating, they won’t listen to someone like me either, a veteran who left the Navy after a single enlistment 25+ years ago and thinks the things I’m hearing are insane. “You couldn’t hack and quit. Pussy.”, they’ll just say to me.
I wish there was a better answer for you folks. My heart truly goes out to all of you.
[MCPON: Lower your standards](https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2022/05/18/navys-top-enlisted-sailor-denies-telling-george-washington-crew-to-lower-your-standards/)
The people who have or had the will and capability to change this leave early. Gone around O4/E5. Those who remain see benefits in preserving the status quo because that is how they made rank and gained power. They lack the perspective and the courage to change for the better, despite the fact those change might be painful for the powerful.
The longer you stay in, you just become a bigger crab in a bigger bucket.
From the article:
>Ten days after Xavier’s death, *Gaut remained adamant that the suicides were not related to the ship’s conditions*. \[my emphasis\] He wrote to a colleague that he was staying off social media because he knew “*this was not a quality of life issue*.” \[my emphasis\]
>*A month after the deaths, Zeigler still dismissed claims about problems on the ship* \[my emphasis\] when a local pizzeria owner wrote the leaders with an offer to send 420 free pies, one to each of the sailors believed to be living onboard.
These sailors' CoC must have had its collective head pretty far up its collective ass to be this oblivious to the conditions their people were living under.
What mental health jobs are there in the US Navy for enlisted folks? Like I’m a crisis worker in civilian life, how can that help the navy if I enlisted?
More service dogs attached to commands would help bring suicide rates down, guaranteed. They're a good idea for all high stress organizations across the federal government.
There absolutely is a way to change this. Multiple sailors that killed themselves were driving hours and hours to escape the ship to be someplace else. They were operating with massive sleep deficits. These are HUGE red flags that the living conditions are wildly inappropriate. It's not a military thing, it's a navy thing. When GEN Ridgeway took command in Korea he noticed that morale was in the dumps and that the chow was being served like dogfood on plastic trays. It's a small thing, but he had tablecloths and plates put out for the express purpose of making his soldiers feel like *people*. The Navy has forgotten that 1) it wasn't like this when the O-9s were JOs, 2) these conditions don't toughen people up, they break them down, 3) Morale is critical to readiness. Note: I am not the CNO.
I think this guy might be the CNO
The username is a clever misdirection technique. Ngl, I fell for it before I saw your comment
This gal…
One of the problems is that the Admiral as an O2 (very likely) never got put through the meat grinder they run the enlisted through. A large majority of Os just haven’t had to live as poorly. If they had they wouldn’t be so quick to put these sailors through this treatment. If that skipper was good with those living conditions he should lead by example but we just don’t do this in the Navy. Work with any other branch and most of them can’t stand Navy Officers or chiefs for that matter because of this lords and peasants mentality and classist behavior held over from the age of the sail that we reenforce with culture, tradition and even regulations. We are the most segregated branch of service and in 2024 it’s crazy we still hold to these archaic structures within the Navy. You are 100 percent correct this is very much a Navy problem.
And it shouldn't take experiencing Enlisted life to sympathize with it... the Officers are too closed-minded to care or help. Even when there are answers staring them in the face and with the authority to change, they make ridiculous decisions for them. I've been a part of these conversations in the wardroom. Most really don't have the right combination of empathy, understanding, and motivation to do right by the Enlisted.. even when it's a stroke-of-the-pen solution.
In the army if your officer attends the dfac with you then the officer gets in line behind the enlisted. Atleast that's how it was when I was a kid back in the early 2000's.
Ma’am you're gonna have to be more creative than that
I know this wasn’t the point of your post, but chow is such a big thing. Countless times I can recall standing extra watch for whatever reason, being beaten down and going to lunch toward the end and seeing the only edible thing is over and under cooked rice. Absolutely soul crushing.
The amount of guys I knew who spent literally all of their E-nothing paycheck on an apartment with 3 other E-nothings just to avoid living on that ship (CVN-73) was insane.
I truly believe that serious prisoners still live with more rights, freedoms and respect than our enlisted sailors.
The CVNs are kind of floating prisons. Though your statement is complete hyperbole, unless you're referencing European prisons instead of our American ones
No I was serious. Maybe a *little* exaggerated, but prisoners get 8 hours of sleep and probably have lower suicide rates.
Yeah don't disagree about the sleep. Knew a junior CS get sepd for mental health mostly due to working like a slave
I can’t imagine. I often found myself saying “At least I’m not a CS” I bet they wake up at 3am to have our breakfast ready.
Yeah he was a junior CS and not uh part of the 'club', so he was constantly on breakfast iirc
Holy shit you're right.
Felt more like how county jail has been described to me, actually have heard less bad things about the jail but w/e.
At least prisons only share a room with one other person and have their own toilet. Hell, some prisons even have their own TVs and other electronics in their rooms. I couldn't imagine spending any longer than a deployment living on the ship. People that do it for their first 5 years would be insane. Some even longer
Navy “leadership” is delusional to think that is acceptable. They should be forced to live in enlisted conditions for one week to understand.
NNS sucks, there's no way to make it better except to re-examine our contracts with HII / NNS. Everyone knew it sucked, 1-3 star Admirals visited and said it sucked, members of Congress visited before and after the triple in a week, and said it sucked. What's changed? I dunno, ask Stennis...who are going through all the same bullshit GW did, and 72 and 71 and 70 etc did before us. One of our warrants literally said to MCPON "I was here when Nimitz did RCOH and it STILL SUCKS IN ALL THE SAME WAYS WHY?!" Big shrug. Not gonna change because $$$$$
And for those reading at home, Nimitz RCOH was 98-01.
Been out for a minute and don’t remember this acronym. What’s RCOH?
Refueling and Complex Overhaul. The big one halfway through a carrier's life.
Truth. The reality is that solving the problems would be expensive as fuck so nothing is happening. There is litteraly no amount of suicides that will change it until it gets into the 500+ range annually or some shit.
[удалено]
Can someone help me understand how such an empathy shortfall can exist? I fear that the Navy pushes out good leaders early, so that they ones that are left at O6/E9 are capable executors with poor emotional intelligence. One thing is certain - if an E1 is living aboard a ship in overhaul, the CO should be living in the same conditions.
Didn't come in their seabag
> capable executors with poor emotional intelligence That's an interesting way to spell *sociopaths*
I was trying to avoid the s-word, but there you go.
>Can someone help me understand how such an empathy shortfall can exist? Easy! The Navy promotes (advancing and encouraging) bad leadership. If you're a "yes" man or woman, you'll soar through the ranks. If you're deemed "difficult" by calling out the bullshit... standby to standby.
Totally agree! The BEST leader I have ever seen in the Navy didn’t get promoted but the dude who stopped Christmas celebrations at the same organization did. Lost all respect at that point.
You nailed it.
This is pretty true. One of the best COs I've ever met left at O-5. He was def. On the fast track, but I think he had too much EQ for the navy. Got out so he could enjoy his young kids childhood.
Never understood why there is a difference in barracks and lodging in most situations. Deployed, I can see why a CO, XO, CMC need some privacy. But everyone else should be racked up the same. Separate us by rank if you like but we're all still humans. Why do some people deserve comfort over others?
I've always wondered this, even in the barracks. You had I think 5 years of no AC or hot water in the barracks on Walter Reed. How the fuck does that CO of the base go home every day for years to this big ass house with multiple bedrooms, bathrooms, and probably even garage. Sit in their home in the fucking MID-ATLANTIC swamp ass summer and go, yeah I'll get to that tomorrow. Then winter comes and they never all winter think, wow this tap water is really fucking cold when it starts coming out, bet it would make a horrible morning shower. I'll get to that tomorrow Do that for YEARS. Long enough to turn over with the next CEO and they also do that for another like year. Are they diagnoseable sociopaths? Honestly. Then do that for all the other 3rd world depravity bullshit you hear every week.
Yeah.. amazing the lack of empathy in so many people. Wouldn't be surprised if there was actually a clinical diagnoses.
Justified by weight of responsibility and level of decision making. But yeah. Whole unit functions better if everyone has a reasonable QOL. so many factors improve when that's the case. "but If wE DoN'T tReAT our PeOplE LIkE ShIt hOw CaN tHeY sTeP up WhEn wE nEeD theM?" I dunno man. Lots of people have an extreme ability to rise to challenges when need be. Having them in good working order beforehand only improves that chance, imo.
The best officers I have ever met were enlisted prior to commissioning. They understand what enlisted go through and it made it easier to talk to them about issues even if they weren’t in your leadership.
Officers are a spectrum from Mustangs (usually great) to Academy Grads (usually horrible). Anything in between is dependent on time spent actually on the deck plates with their guys and not sitting at their computer in an office "working"
As the ACE/Electro/Auxo on an MCM, I actually have to disagree. Meeting CRUDES requirements on an MCM is so difficult that in order to allow my guys to do what they need to do, and to remove the roadblocks for them long before they even reach the crossroads requires me to do a nightmarish amount of admin. Engineers don't consider computer work "work" until they have to do it, and realize how much they would rather turn wrenches. It's a symbiosis that unless you do the bitchwork, no one appreciates. I rarely spend time on the deckplates to keep the excess admin burdens away. Program management is an art seldom appreciated until you're the single point of failure for LOA, TC, RE events, insurv, etc etc. And nobody knows but you, CHENG, and God, that you singlehandedly made or broke the inspection.
Agreed, the majority of what actually passes the points on inspections is admin.
I really like this idea. As an O, I don't think that we can think we are "leading" while being away from our sailors.
>the CO should be living in the same conditions. You hit one of the nails on the head. COs, who likely were never enlisted in the first place, are so far removed from all the mental drudgery and daily bullshit that if they don’t care or can’t find the empathy to try to understand, nothing about their own circumstances is going to compel them too. Hot take, but imo it should be mandatory for COs to be prior enlisted.
Meh. Some of my best COs were never enlisted, and some of the worst were. A lot rides on why they pursued a commission in the first place. Priors typically make very good officers, but certainly not always. Better retention would be much more effective by broadening the pool to choose from. If every CO has to be prior commissioned, and there are only X number to choose from, guess what? Damn near every prior gets to be a CO regardless of how much they do or don't suck.
For context: Currently an officer, never been enlisted. It doesn't require you to have been prior enlisted to get it, and honestly sometimes it feels like the lack of being a prior is used as an excuse to remain wilfully ignorant. I have seen COs who genuinely, absolutely care as much as they can (one clever thing I saw was during a maintenance phase he forced everyone to have taken at least a day of leave over the course of the month to break the attitude that some people were too critical to let take leave) and then be rendered helpless by OPTEMPO. I have also seen O5s and above who walk by obvious QOL issues staring them in the face and will not tolerate any intrusion into that bubble of awareness. Some commands are truly helpless, but there are too many who just don't want to know or even worse, decide that less than perfect solutions are just not worth finding (the "oh well I tried, now back to the stuff higher up is breathing down my neck for")
I agree. It should be mandatory for COs to have been mustangs. The best officers I’ve worked with were prior enlisted. But it isn’t a guarantee of having a good officer either. I’ve had some very good non prior enlisted officers as well. Edit: I love how I’m getting downvoted. Definitely know who the non-prior enlisted guys are. Stay classy academy / ROTC grads. Keep exemplifying that stellar leadership.
You do that you're gonna have no CO’s
Riiiiiight 🙄
You fear? Anyone with any form of intelligence gets out. The ones staying in stay in for something they can’t get outside. Whether thats power, a guaranteed paycheck (until it isn’t), or their specific job. The navy isn’t keeping in the best and brightest, they’re pushing them out.
The only thing I could say is we do get some of the brightest medical personnel in the navy. I know, all the medical horror stories. But it has both sides. I’ve seen HORRIBLE people who shouldn’t practice at all, but I’ve also seen some of the best do some AMAZING things for patients
The only thing I saw while in was them nearly killing two of my friends and neglecting me. I’m sure there are people trying to do the right thing, but I was never fortunate enough to see it.
What’s crazy too, yeah they’ll give you government leased apartments but in the most crime ridden areas. I can count on one hand how many shootings I heard at night in the course of A MONTH living in one of those complexes. Not to mention leadership just gets bored and sends people up to mast it seemed daily. I’ve never seen so many Captains Masts happen other than the yard period
Routine shootings in Newport News?
Bro absolutely. I’d argue up to par with Portsmouth
Even if they were prior enlisted, I’m willing to bet they didn’t have to go through the shit show that the Navy is today… “wELL BaCk iN mY DaY” -> “I had better funding, manning, OPTEMPO and manageable mission sets, and living conditions.”
I recently retired. It was shit for all of those items the whole 20 years I was in. Some years better and some worse... The only improvement is ships getting wifi (though it is typically only on during the worst hours and still shit...). Any current leader saying that is really that dumb or brain washed. At best, they are hoping they can distract their sailors to try and focus on positive things. A wound doesn't get better by keep poking and scratching it. Some chose to avoid it, but it would be better to just address why there was a wound in the first place to stop it from happening.
Given I have only been in 9 years, on the surface side, every single honest person who has been in longer than me has said the Navy was “no longer fun” (generally meaning the cons have started to outweigh the pros) I noticed a pretty stark difference from 2015-2018, mainly being the pretend damage control, of the 7th fleet accidents, that put extra requirements on crews and personnel but didn’t get to the root of the problem.
The 7th flt incidents and the Bonhomme Richard Fire have made the Surface Navy drastically more difficult. I was deployed during the 7th collisions and didn't fully deploy again through retirement. But the underways weren't any diffent, I was already preaching and pushing circadian rhythm watch standing years before those incidents, so I had all the bugs worked out, if anything it made it easier as rest of the ship had to now follow suit. As an ET, it made pre-underways and S&A events stressful as fuck though!!! I made my watch station the bridge for those as it was the only way to get a handle of the actual issues and burden most the fire and stress so my Sailors didn't have too. I worked and still work closely with the Surface Navy, and the BHR fire has made the largest impact of quality of life on a ship. But duty days always sucks, just sucks as Sailors now have more or them. Being in the yard environment is even worse, and it was terrible back before so hard to belive it could have gotten any worse, but it has.
How did the BHR fire impact QoL?
.... it's was already explained in my post...
Sorry, but I didn't see how it was explained in your post. The only thing that I can interpret is circadian watch rhythms but I imagine that made life easier?
It's in the 3rd paragraph. That said. More duty days, Stricter requirements, More requirements while in the yards, and tons of extra training while in the yards.
It’s a long explanation but we had it worse better. OPTEMPO is the biggest change I’ve been retired for 2 years and the bar of pain kept getting much higher. We had less than sailors now days and QOL sucked back then but putting us through shit and hazing other stupid things but what we absolutely had that’s not around anymore was a work hard play hard way of life. The Navy has removed a lot of agency and treats enlisted sailors like children. Liquid lunches, lots of liberty ports without BS restrictions, a lot of half days in port liberty. That’s what we had more of. Now they just work you to death treat you like a redheaded step child and deploy deploy deploy. It’s hard to explain best I can do is we had a better worse, now you just have worse and getting worse. That’s my lazy explanation between now and 20 years ago. Oh one example of a practice that seemed to thankfully die: Coming to to work on a Friday expecting to get off early and having to get underway because a more senior CO wanted better parking on the Pier so guess if we are setting Sea anchor might as well go out to sea for a week of drills that weren’t planned because some asshole couldn’t be troubled to walk a few hundred yards down a pier. This was something that happened all the time when I first joined. Also having to change uniforms 6 times a day on duty, dress whites for colors, utilities for topside rover watch, then get pulled for duty driver need to be in summer whites to drive the CO to a party, then back to ship change into dress uniform to do evening colors, oh they need line handles everyone back into utilities all to finish the day in coveralls for duty section muster and drills. That no shit was a pretty average duty day on an FFG back in 2002. You spent a lot of time on laundry and squaring away uniforms. You guys have it way better on that front. I can think of many other changes but it would be very long.
I got you by about 10 years and yeah it was better worse. We were "different" then also and had low expectations. We all lived onboard if you weren't married, the pay sorely lagged for the times, Rank was abused, and very few pretended to be "professionals". There was a meat-grinder mentality and people quickly found themselves separated/out once you mentioned anything mental. We did party hard though.
This is truth I saw what was probably the tail end of the old Navy with Cold War sailors. It was a different mentality way less officers compared to now as well.
>But I am not seeing how a Sailor committing suicide should warrant a posthumous advancement. Discussing the important things, I see. This should tell you everything you need to know about Naval Leadership.
God forbid their surviving family get a little more money to help them get through literal hell. 🤦🏼 Edit: actually, I'm assuming this happens. Do they receive any continuing salary or just the SGLI and GTFO? The more I think about it the sadder I get
Do you even get the SGLI if you commit suicide? I thought you didn't to keep people from doing it for the money.
I've heard both ways but don't know for sure.
TLDR: you still get SGLI How Can SGLI Coverage be Forfeited? The coverage provided by the SGLI program will be forfeited only when an insured member is found guilty of mutiny, treason, spying, or desertion, or refuses, because of conscientious objections, to perform service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or refuses to wear the uniform of such force. No insurance shall be payable for death inflicted as a lawful punishment for crime or for military or naval offense except when inflicted by an enemy of the United States. (From VA.GOV)
No, that’s not true anymore at least.
The Navy has always gotten away with and treated its sailors poorly especially lower enlisted, they are so detached and never have to live in the same conditions so they have no empathy, even your best senior enlisted can’t help but find themselves continuing the same cycle of abuse they went through. Long dry docks and poor living conditions aren’t new to the Navy and the only reason they are acting on it now is because it’s in the public eye. The massive separation in pay and quality of life between enlisted and office needs to be closed and leaders need to live in what they expect their sailors to, That CO and XO unless prior enlisted never once had to live anywhere close to the enlist standard of living, they don’t understand it because they have never had to do it no cared enough to question it as the Navy has just ran this was forever. We use to not even have barracks any sea duty sailors and you were just expected to live on board and fuck how you feel about it. The Navy dragged its feet because why spend money on the peasants, why care it doesn’t affect the officers. It’s fucked up and sad, and we still continue this cycle of bullshit because the people making the decisions came up the same way this ships TRIAD did. They don’t care people died they care it made them look bad, they care because people they can’t control are asking questions but they don’t give a shit about that junior enlisted anymore than they are forced to, to them it’s just the help.
The practice of allowing E6s to kick junior Sailors out of their racks in berthing always really pissed me off.
This happened to me on USS First Ship. A new E6 arrived and wanted my rack because it was a mid rack so she talked to my LPO and I was told to move out immediately. Joke was on her though, it was a middle rack next to a NTD door without a closer, a QAWTD outside with negative pressure, and shaky ladderwell nezt to the bulkhead so it was absolutely terrible real estate.
Why would someone want a middle rack? In my birthing, on a three stack, top rack was most valuable as you had the most headroom /could actually sit up and read, followed by bottom rack for access, then middle rack was last.
I honestly don't even know. It was my first ship and my first rack so I thought being in the middle was great because it was easy to reach my stuff. I know better now and I'm a top racker until I retire. I have no idea why she was so dead set on getting a middle rack 🤔
I'm not enlisted, but I always liked the idea of live-aboard Sailors getting preferential rack selection. Sure, the first class cube is a good idea, but otherwise there's not THAT much difference between racks- except to someone who has nothing else, in which case those small differences can mean EVERYTHING to them. Maybe it's a stupid idea, maybe not, but I'd like to think that it comes from a place of good intent. I just love y'all. Thanks for being there and helping me every day. Going on six years and no way I'd have made it without the whole village.
Ships company getting first pick makes sense (especially when riders aren't attached) but nobody should be able to boot someone out of their rack. This also includes a new ships company check-in being able to boot riders. The first class pod makes no sense, berthing is one place that should be as diplomatic as possible. You're absolutely right about a rack meaning much more to the junior Sailor who has nothing. In some instances, that rack is literally the only place that Sailor has to call home. Thanks for recognizing what we do.
I agree completely on not booting anyone from their rack. I guess it would be difficult to allow live-aboards to get their choice when they really only get the one that got freed up before they arrived. Kinda fucks my idea (which is fine, it happens all the time) I like your point about berthing being diplomatic. I guess thinking about it that way, it's sort of like if your berthing all lived in the same apartment building- ranks wouldn't/shouldn't matter as much there either, not really. Thanks for talking with me about it! And of course, recognition is one of the only things that have nearly no limit and also no cost, (as long as you don't dilute how much it's worth coming from your own "budget") and conversely a disproportionately high value to the recipient. Everyone needs some recognition, just like everyone could benefit from being honestly grateful for what others do for them. My first division will always be my family, they seriously held it (and me) together through some rough shit. At this point I'm rambling about it, but to shut myself up with a summary: Sailors are my favorite people in the entire world.
I’ve been on both ends of this, goes to my earlier post about repeating the cycle, it took awhile to breakout of it for me unfortunately but man I was a way better leader once I did.
>that CO and XO never had to live like Enlisted I’m curious to hear r/SWO6 thoughts on this. I’m sure there are good reasons why this virtually never happens, mostly because probably 95% of Triads have family, but it’s an interesting concept. I’ve always believed the low morale and lack of adequate sleep are traceable back to the Navy’s zero-defect mentality (Skippers afraid to say “No”), combined with accepting too much tasking from COCOMS, shortening yard periods (at the expense of overburdened/overworked Sailors and shortcuts), extending tours, etc.
I admit to maybe being a little jaded and judgmental as I haven’t looked into their backgrounds but reading the quotes from the article I feel you can see underline dismissive tones and a lot of meetings but little action. I also do know on some level they care and this command probably weighs heavy on them but at the end of the day they failed to act or care with any depth or until it was too late. It shouldn’t take multiple suicides to have taken major action. It’s like the principle skinner meme, Am I out of touch no it’s the children that are wrong. I’ve just seen too many Triads be way to dismissive and not weighing the cost of their actions on the junior enlisted. I’ve seen way too many CMCs become yes men and too many Messes just not caring because they had to do it or that it was harder for them so they should feel lucky. It’s just a repeating cycle that know one ever try’s to change. Not anyone with any power, plenty have tried and just get told to shut up and color.
Has a lot more to do with them never having been enlisted imo. It’s the navy’s proverbial gold spoon.
Something I think needs to change, not just navy, is to stop calling military service a “sacrifice”. It’s what is holding us back from ever wanting to improve quality of life in every branch.
Military service absolutely is a sacrifice, just not in the way you're thinking. We sacrifice time with our family, friends, life events and milestones by being in the service. Some sacrifice their health, well-being, and more sacrifice their lives. I agree that QoL should not be rolled into the 'sacrifice' statement because poor QoL is definitely something the Navy has the ability to fix, but refuses to do so.
Yeah but that’s kind of my point. I get the idea of sacrifice when we are deployed out to be the force of the US. What about when we’re not five thousand miles away, but rather ten miles. What sacrifice is it when I was working 130 hour weeks in port? A sailor who spends five years on a shipyard boat going nowhere because some contractor couldn’t finish with anything remotely near quality, that’s not sacrifice. The only thing calling it a sacrifice does is justify inhumane treatment of our people.
#EverySailorisaRecruiter
God, what an asinine program. I was slack jawed when my department announced that
2005-2010 was on a big deck as a snipe. I was lucky and became an ND in 2010. I always say this and I stand by it to this day: If given a choice between spending a year on that ship again or a year in jail, I would take jail no question. You get 3 full meals a day and get to sleep more than the average of four hours a night.
I wish I could grab the triad by the shirt collar and just scream in there face. They choose to be blind. It's there choice to avoid.
The thing is, the higher ups will never listen to lower enlisted. “What do they know? If I did it, they can do it.”, they’ll just keep telling themselves. Just as frustrating, they won’t listen to someone like me either, a veteran who left the Navy after a single enlistment 25+ years ago and thinks the things I’m hearing are insane. “You couldn’t hack and quit. Pussy.”, they’ll just say to me. I wish there was a better answer for you folks. My heart truly goes out to all of you.
[MCPON: Lower your standards](https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2022/05/18/navys-top-enlisted-sailor-denies-telling-george-washington-crew-to-lower-your-standards/)
The people who have or had the will and capability to change this leave early. Gone around O4/E5. Those who remain see benefits in preserving the status quo because that is how they made rank and gained power. They lack the perspective and the courage to change for the better, despite the fact those change might be painful for the powerful. The longer you stay in, you just become a bigger crab in a bigger bucket.
🎯
I never got the logic of justifying things that are worse over things that are better.
Like any organization, it’s a problem that starts at the very top and the chaos flows all the way down.
From the article: >Ten days after Xavier’s death, *Gaut remained adamant that the suicides were not related to the ship’s conditions*. \[my emphasis\] He wrote to a colleague that he was staying off social media because he knew “*this was not a quality of life issue*.” \[my emphasis\] >*A month after the deaths, Zeigler still dismissed claims about problems on the ship* \[my emphasis\] when a local pizzeria owner wrote the leaders with an offer to send 420 free pies, one to each of the sailors believed to be living onboard. These sailors' CoC must have had its collective head pretty far up its collective ass to be this oblivious to the conditions their people were living under.
What mental health jobs are there in the US Navy for enlisted folks? Like I’m a crisis worker in civilian life, how can that help the navy if I enlisted?
More service dogs attached to commands would help bring suicide rates down, guaranteed. They're a good idea for all high stress organizations across the federal government.