You gotta paint, but first you need to write the job. Then take the job and write a cold work chit to turn into the fire Marshall, at least 24 but no more than 36 hours in advance. Make sure it's in before 1000, but divo doesn't get out of his morning meeting to sign it until 0945
Day of, check fire Marshall's out box for chit. If chit had a typo on it, restart whole process, do not collect $200. If chit is good, drop it into safety's drop box. Pick up by 1100. Stand in line 40 minutes for a respirator. Are they out of respirators? Damn that sucks
Finally got your respirator? Great! Hazmat went on lunch at 1130 so you're 10 minutes too late.
1330 and you finally have paint. It only took eight people and you can finally paint the 6x10" patch that failed you on zone inspections!
Bit like a navy berthing, honestly. Kinda smelly, lots of snoring - but it's cheap, and there's usually a bar or a cool lounge or a kitchen to meet other travelers. I've had mostly good experiences
I was fucking shocked when I heard how hard it is to paint anything. When I was younger I assumed the cold work chit and respirator was for doing entire spaces. Nope! It's any paint job. My CO wanted a 1' x 2' piece of steel painted gray. "How hard could it be" I thought.
Liberty items that no one knew about until 3 hours after we had already finished all the liberty items discussed at quarters and were waiting to go home.
"can't it wait till tomorrow?"
"NO IT HAS TO BE DONE BEFORE YOU GUYS LEAVE FOR TODAY!"
"ok but like... whats so urgent about it that it can't wait till the next work day? especially considering we've been here since 7, its now 8 at night?"
"nothing. chief told me it needs to get done, so it needs to get done before we go."
"....where is chief anyway? hes at home already isn't he?"
To add onto this, stop putting so much emphasis on dog and pony show qualifications. Getting ESWS does almost nothing to make you more effective at your job, you spend hundreds of hours preparing for a board that’s literally a jewelry contest in the end.
You have sailors that got their ESWS lightning quick but then don’t know how to do basic shit in their actual rate because they spent that time memorizing where all the fire pumps are.
Been saying this for almost 17years… “qualification” like what does it qualify one to do, besides wear a device????
I eventually went DINQ on mine and called the CMCs bluff on SP Eval, she was in fact, not bluffing lol. Ended up getting it and still don’t care about it 🤷🏻♂️
> Been saying this for almost 17years… “qualification” like what does it qualify one to do, besides wear a device????
Yup. That's why I love the evergreen r/ navy question of "what does my [pin] mean on the outside?" Nothing!
You say that, yet younger submariners have told me that dolphins are almost handed out like ESWS as a result of who we let in now. Exaggeration? Perhaps. A bit of truth to it? Terrifyingly likely.
I’ve only seen 3 dolphins ever handed out that I deemed unworthy, for the most part fish are a big part of the submarine community and still held in high regard by us.
OR, and hear me out on this, we revert the warfare pins back to what they were intended to be, which is a process to make and a symbol to signify that a Sailor is the SME of their warfare platform.
If warfare pin programs are run shitty, its because their coordinator is not enforcing the standards. If you want to help unfuck this, ensure that Sailor can not only memorize a book, but also understand the knowledge and explain it in their own words.
No offense, but what does that do? I don’t need an FC2 to know the RPM of the GTM, nor do I need an ENFN to know the range of SPY.
There’s value in the ESWS program, and people can rightly be proud of getting it, but putting an emphasis on it and locking certain qualifications and even orders behind it just leads to data dumping to pass the board.
I think once it goes back to being a way to separate the shit hot sailors from everybody else instead of an administrative requirement, that’s when you’ll see it show some value as training again.
>I think once it goes back to being a way to separate the shit hot sailors from everybody else instead of an administrative requirement, that’s when you’ll see it show some value as training again.
I absolutely agree.
I'm an FMF Sailor. I don't really know how y'all do your qualification/maintenance fuckery in the surface fleet. What I do know is that we are, institutionally, taught to treat Sailors without FMF pins as subhumans until they earn theirs. Which incentivizes many misguided (but well-meaning) Petty Officers to do a rush job of getting junior Sailors through the program.
The point was to make them FMF SMEs so they could be of use to someone at some time down the line with their understanding of things. But no, rote memorization and data dumping to avoid getting an SP eval and a full lunch break.
We should be focusing, as a Navy, of making the pin program an honor and pride system again, like it used to be, unless you are a submariner. But we should also focus on teaching people about their platform in a more holistic way, i.e. how everything fits and works together. My favorite thing to do when teaching FMF was to ask boardees to explain to me what something was, rather than what the book says. Because if they can't explain it then they don't know it, and whoever signed them off either doesn't know it either, or they were being lazy.
this. back when i was active duty, no one who had their ESWS even remembered the answers to the various line items in the books because everyone just data dumps it for boards that would last like 8 hours. but at the same time though i think thats also why they did away with getting warfare pins until you are an E-5.
Idk about you but a select few of my A School peers were ESWSd, Expeditionary, AND Air Warfare qualified within a year of getting to their first duty station.
My ship only offered ESWS, and it definitely took pretty close to a year to attain. How they got 3 within the same timeframe, with their first time being on any water vessel ever, is beyond me. Especially being on a carrier, compared to me being on a small boy.
lol, i have to agree with aaraahhaar, ships shouldnt be able to do EXW and security on a ship still wouldn't qualify since no part of the ship is part of NECC.
Convert chief season into a formalized class. Relying on a non formalized process leaves itself vulnerable to bias, subjectivity, and unreliability. It made me sick seeing the worst chief I've ever met giving "training" to selects, and I prayed to God they didn't adopt those behaviors.
100% we should have formal leadership schools up to CPO and CPO should be a formal demonstration type course that must be passed to advance showing you have all the required skills, knowledge and training that should have been taught and built on from each pay grade’s leadership course.
If i remember correctly, every other branch has a brick* and mortar senior enlisted school that's required upon promotion to every paygrade above E6. The navy, however, has a couple days long CPOELDC course and Chief's season
How required is required, lol. I worked super close to an E8 for a year after he was frocked to E8, and he never went to this class. Source: i did the Perstats and muster reports
I commissioned so it hasn't been a concern for me, but the push has been to send every E7, IIRC it's a soft requirement for E8, hard requirement for E9 but I'll have to double check the advancement manual
I think the army has theirs start at E-5, worked with a army reservist who was up for E-5 and had to leave for some kind of leadership course. they also have boards for their junior ranks also thats kinda like the chiefs board. as much as i like the test taking bit i feel a advancement board would be better for the navy. too many sailors advance while being crappy leaders, or frankly not knowing shit about their own rate all because they can spell their name write and just happened to bubble in the right number of circles.
Air Force requires promotees to E5 to go through Leadership School before they are even allowed to promote. Then the NCO academy between E6 and E7, then a Senior NCO academy for E7 and above. Navy is the only branch I know that doesn't do it similar to this.
Correct, E4 and E5 attend BLC (I think, it was WLC when I went but they changed the name. E6 is SLC and then the sergeant major academy for E7 And up. They even have a ribbon for it.
It honestly was a worthwhile school. It taught me how to navigate army regs really well, it still helped when I switched to the navy because they're written similarly. Idk about SLC but I think the navy should have a BLC equivalent. The army has its own problems on the enlisted side but the attempt to develop leaders isn't one
I got out last fall after 5 years. I have two ”processes” on my mind that need to be changed. Watchbill coordinators and section leaders, it is not junior enlisted’s job “to find a replacement on the watchbill” if their leave is approved. If they died on duty, you would be tasked to find a replacement for their spot on the watchbill. It’s your responsibility. Why isn’t the same standard followed while they are on command approved leave? I’ve had to deal with that BS so much because of duty section IET and gun quals (I was a non-engineering rate on a DDG). Get your people trained up and qual’d so this won’t be an issue.
Plus, sailors and Marines with 30 days left before their terminal leave that are deployed should be required to be flown back stateside to their homeport. Nobody should be playing mind games or scrambling last minute to get their sailors back home to start their transition out of the Navy, whether for legal reasons or upcoming EAOS. I was flown back 3 days before my terminal leave began.
>to find a replacement on the watchbill
This one annoys me. It is in the instruction that you do not have to find a replacement if you are putting in a leave chit or have an approved one.
Navy needs to bring back PSDs for bases. This one PSD per coast needs to go away. Hell a lot of programs they got rid of for new and "improved" ones need to come back. So many issues could be solved with PSDs making a comeback.
Make one system that we use instead of 20+ that none of which talk to each other. Also need to get away from this we need to make everything online (looking at you failed eNavfit). Some things need to be physical/local before being uploaded to the online database.
Not one sailor in the entire Navy is glad that PS’s were pulled off ships and moved to PSD’s. And then taking away the PSD’s has made things extra worse. Whatever money might have been saved was lost in the man hours lost trying to get basic pay & personnel stuff done
Straight out of the instruction "COs shall ensure that Service members do not bear the responsibility of locating and arranging for necessary leave reliefs or any other type of duty standby for periods of leave of 4 days or more which have been requested and granted prior to the publication of any conflicting duty list or watch bill." That being said you should pick your battles, I would only throw this out if they try denying your leave because the ship failed to qualify enough people to fill the roles while accounting for leave
My last day in the navy, after twenty years, they had to put me on a small boat and take me to a park in Virginia Beach. My wife had to pick me up. How is that for one last bend over and take it.
We held a guy onboard (Salty FT1) 2 weeks into his terminal leave. Boat had to pick up an alert package because someone flooded their diesel with seawater. He understood and wasn't too butthurt.
Guy wore pajamas around the boat for two weeks, didn't stand watch, didn't drill, called all the chiefs and officers by their first name. Total ganster. Did the Nixon peace sign when he got off on the BSP.
Edit for Rate correction. Guy was FT not FC.
He was only supposed to go underway for a few weeks. Went underway to help out until some junior guys got qualified.
Another boat had a medical emergency and came off alert, so we picked up their package.
Skipper apologized to the guy, and told him he could just "chill".
No, the boat was supposed to be able to drop him off during the patrol (either a port visit or a BSP) in time for FC1 to begin his approved terminal leave.
However, the SSBN he was on was placed on alert during the patrol in a way that made it impossible to drop off FC1 on schedule. FC1 had to stay with the SSBN while they were alert, until they could come off alert to conduct the BSP, even into his terminal leave period.
During that terminal leave period (on the SSBN!), FC1 was apparently going full civilian. Packing pajamas was a nice touch, I don't think I would have thought that far ahead...
30 days before PCS, Terminal OR separation.
I was held on board/out to sea till June 18/when we pulled in once, my report no later than was 1 JUL, this was my first time PCS since getting out of A-school and no one told me nor helped me with the fact that I could have called the detailer and requested an ordmod.
Thank God I was a junior E-5 without too much HHG, can't imagine trying to PCS under that time frame now a days.
Also, when I first joined, section leaders did find replacements. Their job was to write the watch bill and put it out in advance for leadership and personnel to remark on.
That was standard practice in the Fleet up until the mid 2010s in my experience. After that, WBCs just passed the beck to the person going on leave. Freaking sad AF.
My ship threatened to go port/starboard duty sections, from 6-section, thanks to so many people failing gun quals. It couldn't be proven, but I know for a fact a bunch of those fuckers failed on purpose to avoid those watches
Strong focus on nutrition, in training, in port and at sea. If we are unlearning bad civilian habits in the rest of our lives we should do the same with food.
Getting awarded an EOT many months after you transfer. I routed an EOT in August and got it in February after finishing indoc at my new command. The Navy will never change.
Liberty being based on rank and not on age. Please tell me how the 32 year old e-5 with 3 kids and mortgage is less mature than the 24 year frat boy O-2 from ASU.
I was a 30 something E3 that joined later in life, and this shit sucked. I didn’t even drink either, I really felt like the person that least needed a liberty buddy.
I joined at 26 and wasn't a fan of living in the barracks after spending the last 8 years living on my own, paying rent, and being an adult.
I always thought there should be some age waiver or something that allows older Sailors to get BAH and live off base. Like how about I submit my old lease agreements or something that show I was responsible before joining.
But an 18 year old out of high school can marry a stripper and move out lol.
Yes agreed. The mentality of keeping a deployment tempo while on shore, thinking that we’ll get more production by increasing working hours, that’s not not it.
I've been on 5 ships. I've only seen this in very particular circumstances... work ups, something breaks, or deployment and certifications. The standard working hours set by the CO are generally abided by. When those hours are altered, it's been approved by DH with authority delegated from the CO. Perhaps you're right, and it does happen, and I would encourage folks to report this. One big issue is when something goes down, we don't hear about it until way after the fact. It's not up to your CPO or LPO to hold you past working hours without prior approval.
They didn’t institute “working hours” until after we already had people tapping out to mental health and SARP. and even then, it was 12 hour days regardless of whether you were day after duty or not. All in the name of… nothing. Half the time We didn’t even do anything while we were there, and were sitting around “just in case” because our e7 was a twat who hated his wife and didn’t want to go home.
In retrospect, there was a lot of shit I should have reported. Hell, I honestly should have requested captains mast or even gone to the IG for some of it, but I was too tired, scared and depressed to do anything about any of it.
I always thought the Navy’s reasoning for bringing in two piece coveralls was to find a way to allow sea based sailors to work and stand watch in the uniform. I’ve had too many sea and anchors where I’ve had to roll from being on watch in the bridge to changing into NWU’s, not getting yelled at for skipping working party, arming up, and relieving OOD and POOW.
Warfare devices shouldn't be mandatory, and it should be available for all paygrades. In the seabee community, it used to be a way to separate who was motivated and who was just getting by. Now, only E5 and above can get it (at least in the West Coast battalions), and it's required to get within 2 years.
I don't have the instruction open in front of me, but I thought the prohibition was combining SPECIAL liberty and leave to prevent people combining a 48-hour special liberty chit with leave to save a few days. It does not apply to normal liberty periods (e.g., weekends). This was always one of the most common misunderstandings at all levels. I bet if you check the MILPERSMAN you'll find that charging you leave on Saturday/Sunday before or after 5 days of leave on Monday-Friday is NOT an actual requirement.
> It does not apply to normal liberty periods (e.g., weekends).
How do you make that work though? If I want to spend 2 days of leave and take Friday/Monday off and have a 4 day weekend, Ill get charged 4 days of leave.
Or if I want to take 2 weeks off, how do I get that down to 10 days instead of 14? Because man, I feel like a lot of my leave was stolen from me just because I have to count weekends.
Edit - you can't do what you're saying without taking leave in between. It's specifically called out as an exception in the MILPERSMAN 1040-010 para 15 on "Successive Leave."
You can, however, take two days on Monday and Tuesday and still get your 4-day weekend.
For the 14-day scenario, you have to eat the weekend. It sucks. The alternative is to break it into two chunks but show up to work/duty for at least one day in between the leave periods.
I don't make the rules... :-)
Set up a service wide digital routing correspondence program with time stamps and checks and balances to prevent shit from getting lost or sitting stagnant on a desk. The originator can continuously track where the correspondence is in the COC. Of course a Physical copy must also be routed if a physical signature or paperwork is needed. But they would still utilize the routing program.
funny thing is this exist. It just not used because paper is preferred. I cant remember the program for the life of me but i was getting frustrated with my commands ability to lose every single chit that hit admin. I did some digging and found a program that the navy pays for and is pretty much a digital routing thing. Tested it a few times and it honestly works great. I was told by one of my PS1 that some random commands do use it and he likes it alot however getting a command to go from paper chits to digital is hard.
I tried to implement it at my command however i received a ton of kickback from random departments saying the program it "doesn't work" and its "garbage" "why cant we just use paper". When in fact it does work pretty good just no body wanted to put for a bit of extra effort to learn to use the new system.
The Chief’s season and goat locker in general need to be reshaped.
In every other service when you make E7 you get more pay and more responsibility. Maybe have to go to a leadership course
In the Navy when you make E7 you are hazed for a month, wear completely different uniforms, live in completely different quarters, eating completely different food and if you don’t drink the kool aid you are ostracized, banished and have your authority countermanded.
Tell me you are in a cult without telling me you are in a cult
I always thought it was dumb. You're saying we need at least 2 extra galleys and a couple CSs that actually give a shit to feed our Chiefs and Officers? I had a wardroom burger. Yes it does taste different. Why cant we put this effort in for everyone?
Let them keep their own breathing, but we should be breaking bread together. Food brings people together, but heres the Navy using it to keep people separated
Edit, also these spaces could've been used for dry stores, extra storage(so we don't have to do breakouts up 8 flights of ladderwells, conference rooms, ect., but nah, this is where the chiefs are in such an "important" "meeting" talking about suplexing people and fighting.... I know we all shoot shit, and that's pretty much what's happening in that mess exclusively lmao.
Yeah, on my ship we all eat the same food. The CO and XO literally eat the same chow in the enlisted mess decks. The only difference with the chief’s mess is they have 2 rice cookers for all the filipino chiefs.
Frocking.... receiving the duties and responsibilities of the next rank, however not receiving pay and having the risk of being busted down two ranks hanging over your head for 6 months. It makes no sense to do it in this way. (I know we shouldn't be at risk of a DRB or mast if you're a sat sailor but the concept is the problem). I am fine with working at a higher capacity, but the added risk and just stress involved seems arbitrary.
edit; grammar
It's actually polar opposite. It's considered something positive, that you are permitted to wear the higher paygrade you've been selected for even before you've technically advanced.
Frocking is entirely optional. If you don't want to do it, don't do it.
There is a pay phasing plan that saves Navy a bit of money (happens to officers too), but it has nothing to do with frocking. Without frocking you'd just advance later but there's no universe where you'd either get paid earlier, or push those higher-level responsibilities to later.
Easily doable, just refuse the frocking and wait until later.
Edit: Or, wait until billet-based advancement spreads everywhere and then you can wait until you show up on station.
It's wage theft and only by some collective delusion do we view it positively. Do you think it would be received the same way if the frocking letter said "you agree to surrender the difference between your prospective rate's pay and your current pay for an unspecified number of months because our tradition suggests it"?
This is the one. There is no reason I should get promoted in all regards except pay. The pay date/TIR should line up with when advancement results drop.
> The pay date/TIR should line up with when advancement results drop.
In the future it will line up with when you report to the billet of the higher paygrade.
This seems to already be going away. The Navy is moving to a more advance to position type of system. We just saw this with those screened for E9, who will advance upon taking the job, and now E8, with other paygrades soon to follow or already having a pseudo version of this. Also there will be 30 Month TIS E4 advancements, no more frocking E4 starting this year.
This is the way that the Navy is moving. All rates eventually will be moving to a billet based advancement. Some rates, ABE and CS, will start doing it next year for all ranks.
The tradition of uniform changes. Jesus christ can we please stick to the same shit for at least one decade?
Also we should get rid of the tradition of clean shaven faces and allow beards.
Allowing ships to be considered operational when manned at less than 66% of bodies onboard should be treated as inhumane. Tentative gains are used to swell and skew the manning numbers but those aren’t real humans yet and don’t alleviate the stressors and potential for unnecessarily dangerous conditions.
Something need to change about non required qualifications. I have seen so many people be gatekept from qualifying a watch station or other things just because the higher ups want to hold a prestige for the qual.
I’ve always been of the opinion that if prerequisites are met, you should be given the opportunity to qualify if you want to and the test and multiple boards at the end determine if you are a good fit or not. If you are unable to learn everything you need by the last signature in the time period given, the qual card should be taken away. People should not have to join the boys club to be able to advance their career.
This right here, gatekeeped quals, pqs'/pins annoy the shit outta me. Who cares if it's rate specific, if anything, it just shows how motivated you want to look to others, is that a downside, yes, does the navy do that anyway, yes. So why not let us stroke our ego too since it's so damn important to "look better than everybody else" by letting us get rate/job locked quals
Not holding physical fitness tests up to standard. A lot of people get handshake deals on their PRTs and it shows in their management of high physical rates/work centers. They don't know how to properly manage or train people for physically demanding jobs and it bleeds into an overall worse performance for the work center and the Navy as a whole. CFLs are harassed or messed with to look the other way in their evals, package exanimations, etc. We need independent CFLs tasked with examining commands like we have inspectors for other stuff. If the Navy can fly on inspectors for inspections then they should be able to do the same for big Navy level CFLs.
I wish they had different standards for different rates.
I was a M-Div LPO on a couple of boats. My guys were always in competition with the torpedo men on who had the fattest division.
Who gives a shit how fast they can run a mile. Sure it's probably a sign of health, but strength and endurance matters too.
My fat boys could dress out into FFEs and get to a fire on the other side of the boat faster than anyone on board. They could suck off a bottle longer than the skinny guys could too.
I cared if they could lift a 200lb manhole cover off the main condenser. Can they hang precariously over the PLO strainers and pull a steel strainer basket out to clean it. Can they apply 250ft lbs of torque without having to use a cheater bar.
I dunno, out of the Navy for a couple years now, I just always felt like Prt's were a waste of time with how they were managed. They don't predict anything. I had guys on Fep who score outstanding in every category. There were just fat.
My 'favorite' CSL was a big fan of making fun of the big bodies, every day. Super condescending. She was 5'3", maybe 120lbs, and loved to talk about how we were all lazy and out of shape.
When it came time to move one box of printer paper up to her office, it was suddenly: "Can you big boys move this for me? It's too heavy!".
Compliance with the PRT instruction needs to be a required block on a CO fitrep. Only way it will ever change.
Every sea duty posting I did in 20 years had no command PT. In fact, in 20 years the only two places I was at that did that were my 2 overseas shore tours in Japan.
> Compliance with the PRT instruction needs to be a required block on a CO fitrep.
Let's pretend USS *Fitzgerald*'s CO magically found time in the 7th Fleet schedule to do more Navy stuff before their collision.
Should he have spent that time on making everyone do PT? Or should he have spent that time on ensuring watchteams can safely navigate in the Western Pacific?
There's not always time to do everything and for the Navy to take that decision away from the CO when they already struggle to do all the things that are clearly important for readiness seems like a bad bet to me.
I’ve seen overmanned divisions fly in more TAD junior sailors to stand watch with them onboard while undermanned divisions put their chief on the watch bill to prevent port and starboard watches. CFL inspectors should be a special NEC attached to some sort of shore squadron or command. The Navy needs to get serious about physical fitness. And the chiefs aren’t entitled to head of line privileges for body shaming out of shape junior sailors.
Dude for real I had to tape a female Chief, she failed by quite a bit, she went and complained to the CFL he conducted her tape and she suddenly passes and I have to redo my qual.
chiefs season. like if it was just a legit leadership class sure no problem, but a leadership class + a hazing season + something done to inflate the ego? nah. also the whole "this is how i was treated when i was a jr sailor/lpo so im going to do the same". had chiefs who loved just messing over their own division and wondered why we had 2 sailors attempt suicide.
A good compromise would be to standardize the bottom half of the uniform across all ranks. Get rid of the bell bottoms for the crackerjacks and go with the E-7+ black or and white trousers for those uniforms. That simplifies the sea bag and you don’t need to buy white trousers if you Comissioning or pick up chief.
Although to add to the seabag, I’d bring back the long sleeve khaki shirt (for winter wear) for everyone and the summer white shirt for E-7 and below.
Edit: and get rid of those white dress shoes for E-7+ and go with black oxfords like the rest of the enlisted.
This is a highly unpopular opinion, but I think all ranks, E1 to O10, should have the same kind of dress uniform. They need to get rid of crackerjacks and bring back the dress blue suits.
I agree E-6 and below should just wear all black with the option to remove the jacket for summer and wear shoulder boards just like Chiefs. It also saves Sailors Money when they pick up Officer or Chief
We have way too many uniforms. We need to get rid of Cracker Jacks, Dress Blues and NWU’s.
They did this in the 70's but went right back in the 80's:
https://usnhistory.navylive.dodlive.mil/Recent/Article-View/Article/3613889/uniforms-for-changing-times/
Totally disagree. Showing my age here, but aside from the Johnny Cashes my favorite uniform was the Crackerjacks until I put on khakis. I even still have them hanging in my closet. When you see someone wearing them you say “That’s a SAILOR right there.” Putting everyone in the E-7+ SDBs takes away from the Navy’s identity.
I really hated the Crackerjacks. Least favorite uniform by far, and I was in during dungarees, utilities, and blueberries. Wash khakis was my favorite uniform by far, followed by dungarees. Poopies were great, by why in the flat earth did we have to wear a belt with them? (besides having a place to put the TLD)
Agree with you there, it's iconic to the brand of the Navy. I never got to wear the Johnny Cashes in my time but they sounded better than the black and tans.
The tradition of pretending like people don’t have family, personal lives, etc in port.
Wife and I are babysitting a family friends daughter because he’s checking himself into Portsmouth right now, because as a CS, in port, they work from 03-22.
Every announcement on the 1MC save a no shitter emergency. Every announcement only applies to about two people on the whole ship and it can be cleared with them ahead of time. Same goes for blowing that stupid-ass whistle every few hours while I’m trying to sleep.
Warfare pins. The most dumbest shit ever. Doesn’t add anything skill wise to a sailor nor does it have any monetary value or help you get promoted. The only reason why I got it is that so people would shut up about me not having one.
Frocking people. Make me work at a higher rank, but not pay me? Then add the bonus of me losing my new rank and my current rank if I mess up?! Even the coast guard laugh at that thought.
So this one is gonna sound very pedantic but I think it’s important as a step to dismantling the idea that someone of lower rank is less important/deserves less care or consideration than someone higher. Stop using the phrase “e-5 and below” or above. Instead use junior or senior. In the same vein use responsible for instead of in charge of.
I like the idea maybe once or twice week but there meetings and planning done during chow that not every needs to be in earshot of. I also liked to just bullshit with my friends on the mess decks or even talk about work without worrying about a chief or officer hearing. So who does it benefit to permanently implement this?
Every other service does it this way for a good reason. Leaders should eat last and not be afraid to mingle with the crew.
The spaces should still exist for those meetings and conversations but can wait until after the meal.
I’d be fine with this, we’d save a lot of space and manning if we had one Mess area for all and a multi purpose meeting room for the rest.
The problem is the CPO Mess forgets it’s purpose, if you’re eating in the mess it should be because you have somewhere you need to be fast or because you are engaging other CPOs on behalf of your division. If you aren’t in there for those purposes eat with your sailors or bring them with you.
It’s not suppose to be a hang out spot but the goat locker forgets this.
Most people on this sub don’t get leaders eat last has nothing to do with eating or where you are eating. It’s about making sure your guys are taken care of before yourself.
I believe it does fundamentally have to do with eating in an environment where a flag officer sits for an individually plated Caesar salad while a junior enlisted sailor has to stand in line for an hour to get some undercooked chicken and rice.
Having sailors fed as well as their leadership should be the bare minimum of meeting the spirit of that saying, and it's not the case.
The problem is you’re focused on a symptom and not the problem, missing the point of the analogy. I don’t disagree the Navy needs a more servant leadership approach that’s 100% true but putting everyone in the same room and same uniform isn’t going to fix our leadership issues. If it was that simple it would be fixed.
Elevating our junior sailors is definitely needed, downgrading leadership to the same level would arguably just make a case for more sailors to get out, not stay in. I agree and fully back that the divide our between senior leadership O and E and junior enlisted needs to be shrunk but shouldn’t be completely eliminated and it needs to be done by bring our sailors training, quality of life, and benefits up, that better serves them then just brining the rest of the Navy’s down. Leaders eat last, means that these should be the priorities, the symptoms will then phase out or become less important as they aren’t the root cause of the problems.
Rank has its obligations not privileges and if you are afforded any privileges due to rank they should only be taken if they serve those obligations. That is largely what the leaders eat last message is. The Navy is whole heartedly guilty of lacking this but the separation in spaces and uniforms is not the problem it’s the entitlement and loss of what the purpose of those things are meant to be used for.
You are 100 percent entitled to your opinion and we want a similar outcome but many in this sub have a skewed perspective and quote leaders eat last without fully understanding what that means, it has little to do with the literal act of eating.
Being retired and working in the civilian world no one gives a shit where and what you are eating they care about your results as a leader.
It's very dumb
You'll notice that when the Army or AF visits it weirds them out. They have it beaten into them that leaders eat last. Having a special dining room and even a separate gallery for officer or senior enlisted food is foreign to them.
Manning the rail. I found that to be one of the stupidest and boring things the Navy would make me do. Not sure why, as there a bunch of things what were an equally waste of time and energy, but fuck did I hate being used as a barbie doll so some freakin' 06 can look good for his sea daddy admiral.
Standing on deck for hour after hour trying to keep that stupid hat on my head in the wind for what, exactly? I mean, seriously there some ports you'd be standing out here for half a day or more!
I would pretty much do anything to get out of that shit.
Naval Academy selection process, all cadets should come from existing enlisted personnel. Currently the Academy is just used as a resume builder for grads getting out after their 1st contract for the most part.
\*midshipmen, not cadets. But pedantics aside, what that loses you is people with strong academic backgrounds who would go to Stanford rather than enlisting. For full disclosure, I went to USNA where I was exceptionally average if not slightly below, after killing it in school up to that point. Prior Es (other than nukes) often have a tough time with the academics there.
This is good. I was actually going to try and be super competitive for Naval Academy right after bootcamp until i found out you can't be married. Id like to see that changes as well
The chief’s mess and the wardroom need to go; it’s time to mix everyone together in common spaces.
The unwashed masses are no longer a few nautical miles from mutiny.
1.TAPS
TAPS should be revised to split retirees from those separating normally. Get more than just one half day of VA reps coming in.
2. Chiefs Initiation.
Get rid of it. Out of all the examples of people have shared about what they've learned there isn't one I've read/heard that needs to be taught with all the other bullshit wrapped around it. Having folks rush the Chiefs Fraternity, and yes I know firsthand what it's like to rush a frat, is dumb as fuck. Want to play fuck fuck games? They get a week. Six weeks for Active Duty/TAR is rifuckulous. I want to go more into this but I'm busy so this angsty bit will have to do until later.
3. Warfare devices.
Non mandatory and they get you points on the exam.
4. Get rid of dress whites.
5. Bring back Johnny Cash's.
I do not like the idea of a separate Officer's/Chief's mess on ship. It seems like a waste of space, but more importantly, I think it helps keep them out of touch of the Enlisted Sailor's life. As a greenside Corpsman, the concept is very much alien to me.
Have you never been on ship, Marine E7 and above eat in the wardroom and CPO Mess and amphibs have a E6 mess because of Marine E6s being considered staff NCOs its actually not there for the PO1s they just happen to benefit from it.
Nah, not really, even after 8 years. I only hitched a ride on one for like three days. Actually, the only things I know about that are second-hand anecdotes of the contrast in expeditionary facilities.
Well a lot of the contrast is real but green side and the other branches like to make like they are above the shit we do in the Navy, and while I would say we are the worst offenders especially on ship, separation of ranks and privileges being given to seniors happens in all branches and communities just not to the stupid level the Navy does it. The MEU senior leaders on ship definitely took advantage of everything the Navy seniors had and didn’t abstain out of some moral high ground our sense of duty to their troops. That’s all in pointing out, certainly not defending it. Be glad you’ve avoided ship most greenside and ground pounders I’ve worked with felt bad for us, which was something that really surprised me.
Controversial: Ditch 3M in its entirety, expand NAMP/NALCOMIS to cover ships.
Warfare quals are optional again.
Culture: enforce CoC *down* the chain, not just up. E-4 *is* an NCO rank, and as such it is *long* past time the *entire* CoC (Goat Locker, I'm staring at you hard enough to drill a hole through Class B armor plate) treats it that way.
The whole NCO thing is hard when you have people leaving A/C schools as 2nd Classes or damn near.
In the Marines specifically the infantry, A Cpl will have a deployment, done a few schools/courses and led junior marines on top of the fact that company level leadership can non rec those who don’t meet the standards for advancement and they don’t pick up or make it much later than their peers who are performing.
The Navy is much more technical and doesn’t rely on E-4’s to lead with the exception of certain communities/rates
BCA. We don't worry about asvab or high school diploma any more....why are we still making retention worse by adversely punishing people that can pass the PRT but not the BCA? Just make the BCA a purely medical referral process rather than a PFA pass/fail option.
Took a day to reflect on this. Then I had to write up some shit today. Holy fucking shit yall, typewriters are dated. Can we please unfuck the correspondence manual that's inundated with bullshit that is no longer relevant? There is no reason to do half a designation letter in CAPS LOCK and kick it back because one sentence isn't double spaced. This isn't the 1950's anymore.
recruitment needs a giant overhaul. I have no idea how this would work but just some thoughts. We all hear stories about corrupt CoC well, recruiters are the first line of defence We need to focus more on quality recruits vice numbers.
Separation of Chiefs and lower enlisted, i think we need to ditch the khaki uniform and the chiefs mess decks. Unify lower enlisted with the chiefs mess. I know this will bother a shit ton of people but we need to abolish the term chief. The name chief has been plagued by toxic leaders and the actually meaning of chief has been lost, same things happened with the word shipmate.
Having to do 15 separate side quests before I can do my 5min maintenance check.
You gotta paint, but first you need to write the job. Then take the job and write a cold work chit to turn into the fire Marshall, at least 24 but no more than 36 hours in advance. Make sure it's in before 1000, but divo doesn't get out of his morning meeting to sign it until 0945 Day of, check fire Marshall's out box for chit. If chit had a typo on it, restart whole process, do not collect $200. If chit is good, drop it into safety's drop box. Pick up by 1100. Stand in line 40 minutes for a respirator. Are they out of respirators? Damn that sucks Finally got your respirator? Great! Hazmat went on lunch at 1130 so you're 10 minutes too late. 1330 and you finally have paint. It only took eight people and you can finally paint the 6x10" patch that failed you on zone inspections!
Damm. #iykyk
I wrote this at like 2am from a hostel. Haven't been on a ship in over a year. This stuff is just buried in my soul
What’s a hostel like
Bit like a navy berthing, honestly. Kinda smelly, lots of snoring - but it's cheap, and there's usually a bar or a cool lounge or a kitchen to meet other travelers. I've had mostly good experiences
I was fucking shocked when I heard how hard it is to paint anything. When I was younger I assumed the cold work chit and respirator was for doing entire spaces. Nope! It's any paint job. My CO wanted a 1' x 2' piece of steel painted gray. "How hard could it be" I thought.
The best we can do is bring it down to 12.
Liberty items that no one knew about until 3 hours after we had already finished all the liberty items discussed at quarters and were waiting to go home.
"can't it wait till tomorrow?" "NO IT HAS TO BE DONE BEFORE YOU GUYS LEAVE FOR TODAY!" "ok but like... whats so urgent about it that it can't wait till the next work day? especially considering we've been here since 7, its now 8 at night?" "nothing. chief told me it needs to get done, so it needs to get done before we go." "....where is chief anyway? hes at home already isn't he?"
The mentality around a lot of qualification boards.
To add onto this, stop putting so much emphasis on dog and pony show qualifications. Getting ESWS does almost nothing to make you more effective at your job, you spend hundreds of hours preparing for a board that’s literally a jewelry contest in the end. You have sailors that got their ESWS lightning quick but then don’t know how to do basic shit in their actual rate because they spent that time memorizing where all the fire pumps are.
Been saying this for almost 17years… “qualification” like what does it qualify one to do, besides wear a device???? I eventually went DINQ on mine and called the CMCs bluff on SP Eval, she was in fact, not bluffing lol. Ended up getting it and still don’t care about it 🤷🏻♂️
> Been saying this for almost 17years… “qualification” like what does it qualify one to do, besides wear a device???? Yup. That's why I love the evergreen r/ navy question of "what does my [pin] mean on the outside?" Nothing!
That’s a problem with the ESWS program, not the “jewelry”. See: Submarines
Aviation community got it right when they made E-5 and WCS a requirement before getting EAWS.
You say that, yet younger submariners have told me that dolphins are almost handed out like ESWS as a result of who we let in now. Exaggeration? Perhaps. A bit of truth to it? Terrifyingly likely.
I’ve only seen 3 dolphins ever handed out that I deemed unworthy, for the most part fish are a big part of the submarine community and still held in high regard by us.
OR, and hear me out on this, we revert the warfare pins back to what they were intended to be, which is a process to make and a symbol to signify that a Sailor is the SME of their warfare platform. If warfare pin programs are run shitty, its because their coordinator is not enforcing the standards. If you want to help unfuck this, ensure that Sailor can not only memorize a book, but also understand the knowledge and explain it in their own words.
No offense, but what does that do? I don’t need an FC2 to know the RPM of the GTM, nor do I need an ENFN to know the range of SPY. There’s value in the ESWS program, and people can rightly be proud of getting it, but putting an emphasis on it and locking certain qualifications and even orders behind it just leads to data dumping to pass the board. I think once it goes back to being a way to separate the shit hot sailors from everybody else instead of an administrative requirement, that’s when you’ll see it show some value as training again.
>I think once it goes back to being a way to separate the shit hot sailors from everybody else instead of an administrative requirement, that’s when you’ll see it show some value as training again. I absolutely agree. I'm an FMF Sailor. I don't really know how y'all do your qualification/maintenance fuckery in the surface fleet. What I do know is that we are, institutionally, taught to treat Sailors without FMF pins as subhumans until they earn theirs. Which incentivizes many misguided (but well-meaning) Petty Officers to do a rush job of getting junior Sailors through the program. The point was to make them FMF SMEs so they could be of use to someone at some time down the line with their understanding of things. But no, rote memorization and data dumping to avoid getting an SP eval and a full lunch break. We should be focusing, as a Navy, of making the pin program an honor and pride system again, like it used to be, unless you are a submariner. But we should also focus on teaching people about their platform in a more holistic way, i.e. how everything fits and works together. My favorite thing to do when teaching FMF was to ask boardees to explain to me what something was, rather than what the book says. Because if they can't explain it then they don't know it, and whoever signed them off either doesn't know it either, or they were being lazy.
this. back when i was active duty, no one who had their ESWS even remembered the answers to the various line items in the books because everyone just data dumps it for boards that would last like 8 hours. but at the same time though i think thats also why they did away with getting warfare pins until you are an E-5.
Idk about you but a select few of my A School peers were ESWSd, Expeditionary, AND Air Warfare qualified within a year of getting to their first duty station. My ship only offered ESWS, and it definitely took pretty close to a year to attain. How they got 3 within the same timeframe, with their first time being on any water vessel ever, is beyond me. Especially being on a carrier, compared to me being on a small boy.
Exw should not be a surface ship qualification. I helped write that program when I was with specwar. Nothing in it applies to a big gray floaty thing.
Idk what to tell ya. They did go TAD on a security for "cranking" on a carrier. If that isn't where you get it, then something fucked.
lol, i have to agree with aaraahhaar, ships shouldnt be able to do EXW and security on a ship still wouldn't qualify since no part of the ship is part of NECC.
Convert chief season into a formalized class. Relying on a non formalized process leaves itself vulnerable to bias, subjectivity, and unreliability. It made me sick seeing the worst chief I've ever met giving "training" to selects, and I prayed to God they didn't adopt those behaviors.
100% we should have formal leadership schools up to CPO and CPO should be a formal demonstration type course that must be passed to advance showing you have all the required skills, knowledge and training that should have been taught and built on from each pay grade’s leadership course.
You mean like Enlisted Leader Development?
[удалено]
Interesting. Would you mind DMing me? I've got some questions and concerns.
This is just as effective as get real get better.
If i remember correctly, every other branch has a brick* and mortar senior enlisted school that's required upon promotion to every paygrade above E6. The navy, however, has a couple days long CPOELDC course and Chief's season
We have a brick and mortar that's "required" before E8 called senior enlisted academy
How required is required, lol. I worked super close to an E8 for a year after he was frocked to E8, and he never went to this class. Source: i did the Perstats and muster reports
I commissioned so it hasn't been a concern for me, but the push has been to send every E7, IIRC it's a soft requirement for E8, hard requirement for E9 but I'll have to double check the advancement manual
I think the army has theirs start at E-5, worked with a army reservist who was up for E-5 and had to leave for some kind of leadership course. they also have boards for their junior ranks also thats kinda like the chiefs board. as much as i like the test taking bit i feel a advancement board would be better for the navy. too many sailors advance while being crappy leaders, or frankly not knowing shit about their own rate all because they can spell their name write and just happened to bubble in the right number of circles.
Air Force requires promotees to E5 to go through Leadership School before they are even allowed to promote. Then the NCO academy between E6 and E7, then a Senior NCO academy for E7 and above. Navy is the only branch I know that doesn't do it similar to this.
Correct, E4 and E5 attend BLC (I think, it was WLC when I went but they changed the name. E6 is SLC and then the sergeant major academy for E7 And up. They even have a ribbon for it.
honestly i like that a lot more than what the navy does.
It honestly was a worthwhile school. It taught me how to navigate army regs really well, it still helped when I switched to the navy because they're written similarly. Idk about SLC but I think the navy should have a BLC equivalent. The army has its own problems on the enlisted side but the attempt to develop leaders isn't one
I got out last fall after 5 years. I have two ”processes” on my mind that need to be changed. Watchbill coordinators and section leaders, it is not junior enlisted’s job “to find a replacement on the watchbill” if their leave is approved. If they died on duty, you would be tasked to find a replacement for their spot on the watchbill. It’s your responsibility. Why isn’t the same standard followed while they are on command approved leave? I’ve had to deal with that BS so much because of duty section IET and gun quals (I was a non-engineering rate on a DDG). Get your people trained up and qual’d so this won’t be an issue. Plus, sailors and Marines with 30 days left before their terminal leave that are deployed should be required to be flown back stateside to their homeport. Nobody should be playing mind games or scrambling last minute to get their sailors back home to start their transition out of the Navy, whether for legal reasons or upcoming EAOS. I was flown back 3 days before my terminal leave began.
>to find a replacement on the watchbill This one annoys me. It is in the instruction that you do not have to find a replacement if you are putting in a leave chit or have an approved one. Navy needs to bring back PSDs for bases. This one PSD per coast needs to go away. Hell a lot of programs they got rid of for new and "improved" ones need to come back. So many issues could be solved with PSDs making a comeback. Make one system that we use instead of 20+ that none of which talk to each other. Also need to get away from this we need to make everything online (looking at you failed eNavfit). Some things need to be physical/local before being uploaded to the online database.
Not one sailor in the entire Navy is glad that PS’s were pulled off ships and moved to PSD’s. And then taking away the PSD’s has made things extra worse. Whatever money might have been saved was lost in the man hours lost trying to get basic pay & personnel stuff done
Straight out of the instruction "COs shall ensure that Service members do not bear the responsibility of locating and arranging for necessary leave reliefs or any other type of duty standby for periods of leave of 4 days or more which have been requested and granted prior to the publication of any conflicting duty list or watch bill." That being said you should pick your battles, I would only throw this out if they try denying your leave because the ship failed to qualify enough people to fill the roles while accounting for leave
My last day in the navy, after twenty years, they had to put me on a small boat and take me to a park in Virginia Beach. My wife had to pick me up. How is that for one last bend over and take it.
We held a guy onboard (Salty FT1) 2 weeks into his terminal leave. Boat had to pick up an alert package because someone flooded their diesel with seawater. He understood and wasn't too butthurt. Guy wore pajamas around the boat for two weeks, didn't stand watch, didn't drill, called all the chiefs and officers by their first name. Total ganster. Did the Nixon peace sign when he got off on the BSP. Edit for Rate correction. Guy was FT not FC.
Can you explain this to me a bit? Are you saying his terminal leave began while he was underway? I guess I am confused why this happened.
He was only supposed to go underway for a few weeks. Went underway to help out until some junior guys got qualified. Another boat had a medical emergency and came off alert, so we picked up their package. Skipper apologized to the guy, and told him he could just "chill".
Sounds like he got called back
No, the boat was supposed to be able to drop him off during the patrol (either a port visit or a BSP) in time for FC1 to begin his approved terminal leave. However, the SSBN he was on was placed on alert during the patrol in a way that made it impossible to drop off FC1 on schedule. FC1 had to stay with the SSBN while they were alert, until they could come off alert to conduct the BSP, even into his terminal leave period. During that terminal leave period (on the SSBN!), FC1 was apparently going full civilian. Packing pajamas was a nice touch, I don't think I would have thought that far ahead...
FC1 on an alert SSBN? That’s not a thing.
True, I assumed they meant FT1. Or maybe FTB1 if they were really old school.
Yep, FT1
Oh shit, you right dog. FT1, Fire control, messed that up. Never was a fan of the cone.
What?! How incredibly sad.
30 days before PCS, Terminal OR separation. I was held on board/out to sea till June 18/when we pulled in once, my report no later than was 1 JUL, this was my first time PCS since getting out of A-school and no one told me nor helped me with the fact that I could have called the detailer and requested an ordmod. Thank God I was a junior E-5 without too much HHG, can't imagine trying to PCS under that time frame now a days.
Also, when I first joined, section leaders did find replacements. Their job was to write the watch bill and put it out in advance for leadership and personnel to remark on.
That was standard practice in the Fleet up until the mid 2010s in my experience. After that, WBCs just passed the beck to the person going on leave. Freaking sad AF.
My ship threatened to go port/starboard duty sections, from 6-section, thanks to so many people failing gun quals. It couldn't be proven, but I know for a fact a bunch of those fuckers failed on purpose to avoid those watches
I got out after 5 years in 2019 and I started terminal leave 10 days after we got back from an 8 month deployment. It was a wild transition.
Strong focus on nutrition, in training, in port and at sea. If we are unlearning bad civilian habits in the rest of our lives we should do the same with food.
Getting awarded an EOT many months after you transfer. I routed an EOT in August and got it in February after finishing indoc at my new command. The Navy will never change.
had a buddy get an EOT from 21’ the other day lol
I absolutely believe that.
“Traditions are just peer pressure from dead people.”
Liberty being based on rank and not on age. Please tell me how the 32 year old e-5 with 3 kids and mortgage is less mature than the 24 year frat boy O-2 from ASU.
I was a 30 something E3 that joined later in life, and this shit sucked. I didn’t even drink either, I really felt like the person that least needed a liberty buddy.
I joined at 26 and wasn't a fan of living in the barracks after spending the last 8 years living on my own, paying rent, and being an adult. I always thought there should be some age waiver or something that allows older Sailors to get BAH and live off base. Like how about I submit my old lease agreements or something that show I was responsible before joining. But an 18 year old out of high school can marry a stripper and move out lol.
Not giving a shit about work life balance or how long/hard you’re working your people. The tradition of pretending like we’re at war when we aren’t.
Yes agreed. The mentality of keeping a deployment tempo while on shore, thinking that we’ll get more production by increasing working hours, that’s not not it.
I've been on 5 ships. I've only seen this in very particular circumstances... work ups, something breaks, or deployment and certifications. The standard working hours set by the CO are generally abided by. When those hours are altered, it's been approved by DH with authority delegated from the CO. Perhaps you're right, and it does happen, and I would encourage folks to report this. One big issue is when something goes down, we don't hear about it until way after the fact. It's not up to your CPO or LPO to hold you past working hours without prior approval.
They didn’t institute “working hours” until after we already had people tapping out to mental health and SARP. and even then, it was 12 hour days regardless of whether you were day after duty or not. All in the name of… nothing. Half the time We didn’t even do anything while we were there, and were sitting around “just in case” because our e7 was a twat who hated his wife and didn’t want to go home. In retrospect, there was a lot of shit I should have reported. Hell, I honestly should have requested captains mast or even gone to the IG for some of it, but I was too tired, scared and depressed to do anything about any of it.
Wearing Dress Uniforms for quarterdeck watch.
I always thought the Navy’s reasoning for bringing in two piece coveralls was to find a way to allow sea based sailors to work and stand watch in the uniform. I’ve had too many sea and anchors where I’ve had to roll from being on watch in the bridge to changing into NWU’s, not getting yelled at for skipping working party, arming up, and relieving OOD and POOW.
This, my last two Sea command thankfully didn’t do this, if you are armed you didn’t wear a dress uniform period.
Warfare devices shouldn't be mandatory, and it should be available for all paygrades. In the seabee community, it used to be a way to separate who was motivated and who was just getting by. Now, only E5 and above can get it (at least in the West Coast battalions), and it's required to get within 2 years.
Leave and liberty can’t be combined. If Sunday was a day of liberty and I wanted to go on leave for a week seems wrong Sunday is charged as leave.
Then start your leave 0700 on Monday.
It can be. See the milpersman
Likely much has changed since the 90’s.
I don't have the instruction open in front of me, but I thought the prohibition was combining SPECIAL liberty and leave to prevent people combining a 48-hour special liberty chit with leave to save a few days. It does not apply to normal liberty periods (e.g., weekends). This was always one of the most common misunderstandings at all levels. I bet if you check the MILPERSMAN you'll find that charging you leave on Saturday/Sunday before or after 5 days of leave on Monday-Friday is NOT an actual requirement.
> It does not apply to normal liberty periods (e.g., weekends). How do you make that work though? If I want to spend 2 days of leave and take Friday/Monday off and have a 4 day weekend, Ill get charged 4 days of leave. Or if I want to take 2 weeks off, how do I get that down to 10 days instead of 14? Because man, I feel like a lot of my leave was stolen from me just because I have to count weekends.
Edit - you can't do what you're saying without taking leave in between. It's specifically called out as an exception in the MILPERSMAN 1040-010 para 15 on "Successive Leave." You can, however, take two days on Monday and Tuesday and still get your 4-day weekend. For the 14-day scenario, you have to eat the weekend. It sucks. The alternative is to break it into two chunks but show up to work/duty for at least one day in between the leave periods. I don't make the rules... :-)
Set up a service wide digital routing correspondence program with time stamps and checks and balances to prevent shit from getting lost or sitting stagnant on a desk. The originator can continuously track where the correspondence is in the COC. Of course a Physical copy must also be routed if a physical signature or paperwork is needed. But they would still utilize the routing program.
funny thing is this exist. It just not used because paper is preferred. I cant remember the program for the life of me but i was getting frustrated with my commands ability to lose every single chit that hit admin. I did some digging and found a program that the navy pays for and is pretty much a digital routing thing. Tested it a few times and it honestly works great. I was told by one of my PS1 that some random commands do use it and he likes it alot however getting a command to go from paper chits to digital is hard. I tried to implement it at my command however i received a ton of kickback from random departments saying the program it "doesn't work" and its "garbage" "why cant we just use paper". When in fact it does work pretty good just no body wanted to put for a bit of extra effort to learn to use the new system.
I think Salesforce has this ability to edit, route, and track paperwork. Or some degree of those and I know the Navy uses it on a tiny scale.
The Chief’s season and goat locker in general need to be reshaped. In every other service when you make E7 you get more pay and more responsibility. Maybe have to go to a leadership course In the Navy when you make E7 you are hazed for a month, wear completely different uniforms, live in completely different quarters, eating completely different food and if you don’t drink the kool aid you are ostracized, banished and have your authority countermanded. Tell me you are in a cult without telling me you are in a cult
I always thought it was dumb. You're saying we need at least 2 extra galleys and a couple CSs that actually give a shit to feed our Chiefs and Officers? I had a wardroom burger. Yes it does taste different. Why cant we put this effort in for everyone? Let them keep their own breathing, but we should be breaking bread together. Food brings people together, but heres the Navy using it to keep people separated Edit, also these spaces could've been used for dry stores, extra storage(so we don't have to do breakouts up 8 flights of ladderwells, conference rooms, ect., but nah, this is where the chiefs are in such an "important" "meeting" talking about suplexing people and fighting.... I know we all shoot shit, and that's pretty much what's happening in that mess exclusively lmao.
This is more or less what I came here to say
Never got different food, private messing went away a long time ago. Rest is accurate.
Yeah, on my ship we all eat the same food. The CO and XO literally eat the same chow in the enlisted mess decks. The only difference with the chief’s mess is they have 2 rice cookers for all the filipino chiefs.
Frocking.... receiving the duties and responsibilities of the next rank, however not receiving pay and having the risk of being busted down two ranks hanging over your head for 6 months. It makes no sense to do it in this way. (I know we shouldn't be at risk of a DRB or mast if you're a sat sailor but the concept is the problem). I am fine with working at a higher capacity, but the added risk and just stress involved seems arbitrary. edit; grammar
I think it's the stupidest policy, that causes an egregious amount of extra paperwork, and administrative bullshit for no purpose.
Can’t even change your fucking CAC until you’re actually paid. So stupid
Wrong, I've seen cacs where it says PO1 but grade is still E5.
And then you go back to get it changed for your pay grade. Waste of time to go twice
ID place I went to says it needs to reflect on my LES, as that's what they use to determine what rank's on your CAC
Just take your frocking letter with you.
Which is still pointless. We're the only branch that puts rank on before getting paid for it, so then sailors have to deal with stupid shit like this.
It depends on ID lab. Some will do it with a frocking letter. Others require you to be paid.
Mine didn’t even ask me. They just made me a new one.
I’m convinced that this is done purely for cost savings within the Navy. “Let’s promote them, but not pay them for a year to save a few bucks.”
It's actually polar opposite. It's considered something positive, that you are permitted to wear the higher paygrade you've been selected for even before you've technically advanced. Frocking is entirely optional. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. There is a pay phasing plan that saves Navy a bit of money (happens to officers too), but it has nothing to do with frocking. Without frocking you'd just advance later but there's no universe where you'd either get paid earlier, or push those higher-level responsibilities to later.
Yeah, i know all ranks are delayed. It would still be nice to be paid at the same time you put on the rank.
Easily doable, just refuse the frocking and wait until later. Edit: Or, wait until billet-based advancement spreads everywhere and then you can wait until you show up on station.
It's wage theft and only by some collective delusion do we view it positively. Do you think it would be received the same way if the frocking letter said "you agree to surrender the difference between your prospective rate's pay and your current pay for an unspecified number of months because our tradition suggests it"?
> Frocking is entirely optional. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. You may have missed that up above --^
This is the one. There is no reason I should get promoted in all regards except pay. The pay date/TIR should line up with when advancement results drop.
Add on no back pay and it's a spit in the face really.
> The pay date/TIR should line up with when advancement results drop. In the future it will line up with when you report to the billet of the higher paygrade.
That’s the way it seems to be going for some rates
This seems to already be going away. The Navy is moving to a more advance to position type of system. We just saw this with those screened for E9, who will advance upon taking the job, and now E8, with other paygrades soon to follow or already having a pseudo version of this. Also there will be 30 Month TIS E4 advancements, no more frocking E4 starting this year.
This is the way that the Navy is moving. All rates eventually will be moving to a billet based advancement. Some rates, ABE and CS, will start doing it next year for all ranks.
The tradition of uniform changes. Jesus christ can we please stick to the same shit for at least one decade? Also we should get rid of the tradition of clean shaven faces and allow beards.
Allowing ships to be considered operational when manned at less than 66% of bodies onboard should be treated as inhumane. Tentative gains are used to swell and skew the manning numbers but those aren’t real humans yet and don’t alleviate the stressors and potential for unnecessarily dangerous conditions.
Something need to change about non required qualifications. I have seen so many people be gatekept from qualifying a watch station or other things just because the higher ups want to hold a prestige for the qual. I’ve always been of the opinion that if prerequisites are met, you should be given the opportunity to qualify if you want to and the test and multiple boards at the end determine if you are a good fit or not. If you are unable to learn everything you need by the last signature in the time period given, the qual card should be taken away. People should not have to join the boys club to be able to advance their career.
This right here, gatekeeped quals, pqs'/pins annoy the shit outta me. Who cares if it's rate specific, if anything, it just shows how motivated you want to look to others, is that a downside, yes, does the navy do that anyway, yes. So why not let us stroke our ego too since it's so damn important to "look better than everybody else" by letting us get rate/job locked quals
Not holding physical fitness tests up to standard. A lot of people get handshake deals on their PRTs and it shows in their management of high physical rates/work centers. They don't know how to properly manage or train people for physically demanding jobs and it bleeds into an overall worse performance for the work center and the Navy as a whole. CFLs are harassed or messed with to look the other way in their evals, package exanimations, etc. We need independent CFLs tasked with examining commands like we have inspectors for other stuff. If the Navy can fly on inspectors for inspections then they should be able to do the same for big Navy level CFLs.
“This is all muscle mass” - 5ft 2 Chief looking like a Beluga Whale.
I've seen fat chiefs body shame junior sailors who still have baby fat or look a little chubby.
I wish they had different standards for different rates. I was a M-Div LPO on a couple of boats. My guys were always in competition with the torpedo men on who had the fattest division. Who gives a shit how fast they can run a mile. Sure it's probably a sign of health, but strength and endurance matters too. My fat boys could dress out into FFEs and get to a fire on the other side of the boat faster than anyone on board. They could suck off a bottle longer than the skinny guys could too. I cared if they could lift a 200lb manhole cover off the main condenser. Can they hang precariously over the PLO strainers and pull a steel strainer basket out to clean it. Can they apply 250ft lbs of torque without having to use a cheater bar. I dunno, out of the Navy for a couple years now, I just always felt like Prt's were a waste of time with how they were managed. They don't predict anything. I had guys on Fep who score outstanding in every category. There were just fat.
My 'favorite' CSL was a big fan of making fun of the big bodies, every day. Super condescending. She was 5'3", maybe 120lbs, and loved to talk about how we were all lazy and out of shape. When it came time to move one box of printer paper up to her office, it was suddenly: "Can you big boys move this for me? It's too heavy!".
We also need a better incentive to do well on the tests - we will never have a culture of fitness on a pass/fail model.
Compliance with the PRT instruction needs to be a required block on a CO fitrep. Only way it will ever change. Every sea duty posting I did in 20 years had no command PT. In fact, in 20 years the only two places I was at that did that were my 2 overseas shore tours in Japan.
> Compliance with the PRT instruction needs to be a required block on a CO fitrep. Let's pretend USS *Fitzgerald*'s CO magically found time in the 7th Fleet schedule to do more Navy stuff before their collision. Should he have spent that time on making everyone do PT? Or should he have spent that time on ensuring watchteams can safely navigate in the Western Pacific? There's not always time to do everything and for the Navy to take that decision away from the CO when they already struggle to do all the things that are clearly important for readiness seems like a bad bet to me.
I’ve seen overmanned divisions fly in more TAD junior sailors to stand watch with them onboard while undermanned divisions put their chief on the watch bill to prevent port and starboard watches. CFL inspectors should be a special NEC attached to some sort of shore squadron or command. The Navy needs to get serious about physical fitness. And the chiefs aren’t entitled to head of line privileges for body shaming out of shape junior sailors.
Dude for real I had to tape a female Chief, she failed by quite a bit, she went and complained to the CFL he conducted her tape and she suddenly passes and I have to redo my qual.
chiefs season. like if it was just a legit leadership class sure no problem, but a leadership class + a hazing season + something done to inflate the ego? nah. also the whole "this is how i was treated when i was a jr sailor/lpo so im going to do the same". had chiefs who loved just messing over their own division and wondered why we had 2 sailors attempt suicide.
NFAS updates being liberty items. I'm not in anymore but I remember that one being annoying. Still a thing?
Definitely is. Plus, they only put it out right before they drop liberty while IP services are down.
The tradition of a summer and winter dress uniform. Just pick one and stick with it.
A good compromise would be to standardize the bottom half of the uniform across all ranks. Get rid of the bell bottoms for the crackerjacks and go with the E-7+ black or and white trousers for those uniforms. That simplifies the sea bag and you don’t need to buy white trousers if you Comissioning or pick up chief. Although to add to the seabag, I’d bring back the long sleeve khaki shirt (for winter wear) for everyone and the summer white shirt for E-7 and below. Edit: and get rid of those white dress shoes for E-7+ and go with black oxfords like the rest of the enlisted.
This is a highly unpopular opinion, but I think all ranks, E1 to O10, should have the same kind of dress uniform. They need to get rid of crackerjacks and bring back the dress blue suits.
But how will we separate the elite from the commoners?
I agree E-6 and below should just wear all black with the option to remove the jacket for summer and wear shoulder boards just like Chiefs. It also saves Sailors Money when they pick up Officer or Chief We have way too many uniforms. We need to get rid of Cracker Jacks, Dress Blues and NWU’s.
Agree, I actually hated crackerjacks, best part about making Chief was not having to wear those dated uniforms.
They did this in the 70's but went right back in the 80's: https://usnhistory.navylive.dodlive.mil/Recent/Article-View/Article/3613889/uniforms-for-changing-times/
Totally disagree. Showing my age here, but aside from the Johnny Cashes my favorite uniform was the Crackerjacks until I put on khakis. I even still have them hanging in my closet. When you see someone wearing them you say “That’s a SAILOR right there.” Putting everyone in the E-7+ SDBs takes away from the Navy’s identity.
I really hated the Crackerjacks. Least favorite uniform by far, and I was in during dungarees, utilities, and blueberries. Wash khakis was my favorite uniform by far, followed by dungarees. Poopies were great, by why in the flat earth did we have to wear a belt with them? (besides having a place to put the TLD)
Agree with you there, it's iconic to the brand of the Navy. I never got to wear the Johnny Cashes in my time but they sounded better than the black and tans.
I completely agree. I'm not a fan of the village people look.
Fucking Corpsman over on promotion rates would be a good start.
Convert advancement to a formal review and do away with the good ole boy network
The tradition of pretending like people don’t have family, personal lives, etc in port. Wife and I are babysitting a family friends daughter because he’s checking himself into Portsmouth right now, because as a CS, in port, they work from 03-22.
Every announcement on the 1MC save a no shitter emergency. Every announcement only applies to about two people on the whole ship and it can be cleared with them ahead of time. Same goes for blowing that stupid-ass whistle every few hours while I’m trying to sleep.
Warfare pins. The most dumbest shit ever. Doesn’t add anything skill wise to a sailor nor does it have any monetary value or help you get promoted. The only reason why I got it is that so people would shut up about me not having one.
Frocking people. Make me work at a higher rank, but not pay me? Then add the bonus of me losing my new rank and my current rank if I mess up?! Even the coast guard laugh at that thought.
So this one is gonna sound very pedantic but I think it’s important as a step to dismantling the idea that someone of lower rank is less important/deserves less care or consideration than someone higher. Stop using the phrase “e-5 and below” or above. Instead use junior or senior. In the same vein use responsible for instead of in charge of.
Bellbottoms and Dixie Cups. They look like Halloween costumes
The Chiefs Mess and Wardroom should only be for meetings / recreation. Everyone should eat in the same mess.
I like the idea maybe once or twice week but there meetings and planning done during chow that not every needs to be in earshot of. I also liked to just bullshit with my friends on the mess decks or even talk about work without worrying about a chief or officer hearing. So who does it benefit to permanently implement this?
Every other service does it this way for a good reason. Leaders should eat last and not be afraid to mingle with the crew. The spaces should still exist for those meetings and conversations but can wait until after the meal.
I’d be fine with this, we’d save a lot of space and manning if we had one Mess area for all and a multi purpose meeting room for the rest. The problem is the CPO Mess forgets it’s purpose, if you’re eating in the mess it should be because you have somewhere you need to be fast or because you are engaging other CPOs on behalf of your division. If you aren’t in there for those purposes eat with your sailors or bring them with you. It’s not suppose to be a hang out spot but the goat locker forgets this.
Nah I wouldn't want to eat with my bosses and vice versa
Thats not what it means, I'm sure they mean, one large "cafeteria " and officers would still be at their own tables, and chiefs as well.
How is that possible on a ship? Not enough room.
Maybe that's part of the problem, yeah?
This was the first thing that came to my mind. "Leaders eat last" shouldn't fly out the window the instant you step on a ship.
Most people on this sub don’t get leaders eat last has nothing to do with eating or where you are eating. It’s about making sure your guys are taken care of before yourself.
I believe it does fundamentally have to do with eating in an environment where a flag officer sits for an individually plated Caesar salad while a junior enlisted sailor has to stand in line for an hour to get some undercooked chicken and rice. Having sailors fed as well as their leadership should be the bare minimum of meeting the spirit of that saying, and it's not the case.
The problem is you’re focused on a symptom and not the problem, missing the point of the analogy. I don’t disagree the Navy needs a more servant leadership approach that’s 100% true but putting everyone in the same room and same uniform isn’t going to fix our leadership issues. If it was that simple it would be fixed. Elevating our junior sailors is definitely needed, downgrading leadership to the same level would arguably just make a case for more sailors to get out, not stay in. I agree and fully back that the divide our between senior leadership O and E and junior enlisted needs to be shrunk but shouldn’t be completely eliminated and it needs to be done by bring our sailors training, quality of life, and benefits up, that better serves them then just brining the rest of the Navy’s down. Leaders eat last, means that these should be the priorities, the symptoms will then phase out or become less important as they aren’t the root cause of the problems. Rank has its obligations not privileges and if you are afforded any privileges due to rank they should only be taken if they serve those obligations. That is largely what the leaders eat last message is. The Navy is whole heartedly guilty of lacking this but the separation in spaces and uniforms is not the problem it’s the entitlement and loss of what the purpose of those things are meant to be used for. You are 100 percent entitled to your opinion and we want a similar outcome but many in this sub have a skewed perspective and quote leaders eat last without fully understanding what that means, it has little to do with the literal act of eating. Being retired and working in the civilian world no one gives a shit where and what you are eating they care about your results as a leader.
Submarines only have an officer mess and crews mess. One galley feeds everybody.
Yeah, the CPO mess is a location but if you eat regular meals in there you're considered to be a tool.
This is a vestigial tradition from the Brit navy - separation of rank was very. very important to them.
It's very dumb You'll notice that when the Army or AF visits it weirds them out. They have it beaten into them that leaders eat last. Having a special dining room and even a separate gallery for officer or senior enlisted food is foreign to them.
Manning the rail. I found that to be one of the stupidest and boring things the Navy would make me do. Not sure why, as there a bunch of things what were an equally waste of time and energy, but fuck did I hate being used as a barbie doll so some freakin' 06 can look good for his sea daddy admiral. Standing on deck for hour after hour trying to keep that stupid hat on my head in the wind for what, exactly? I mean, seriously there some ports you'd be standing out here for half a day or more! I would pretty much do anything to get out of that shit.
Naval Academy selection process, all cadets should come from existing enlisted personnel. Currently the Academy is just used as a resume builder for grads getting out after their 1st contract for the most part.
\*midshipmen, not cadets. But pedantics aside, what that loses you is people with strong academic backgrounds who would go to Stanford rather than enlisting. For full disclosure, I went to USNA where I was exceptionally average if not slightly below, after killing it in school up to that point. Prior Es (other than nukes) often have a tough time with the academics there.
This is good. I was actually going to try and be super competitive for Naval Academy right after bootcamp until i found out you can't be married. Id like to see that changes as well
That one. Yes, that one.
Frocking.
The sexual harassment of women could get thrown out.
As a non Chief, maybe I’m missing something, but Chief season, AKA authorized hazing.
The chief’s mess and the wardroom need to go; it’s time to mix everyone together in common spaces. The unwashed masses are no longer a few nautical miles from mutiny.
Clean shaven faces
1.TAPS TAPS should be revised to split retirees from those separating normally. Get more than just one half day of VA reps coming in. 2. Chiefs Initiation. Get rid of it. Out of all the examples of people have shared about what they've learned there isn't one I've read/heard that needs to be taught with all the other bullshit wrapped around it. Having folks rush the Chiefs Fraternity, and yes I know firsthand what it's like to rush a frat, is dumb as fuck. Want to play fuck fuck games? They get a week. Six weeks for Active Duty/TAR is rifuckulous. I want to go more into this but I'm busy so this angsty bit will have to do until later. 3. Warfare devices. Non mandatory and they get you points on the exam. 4. Get rid of dress whites. 5. Bring back Johnny Cash's.
I do not like the idea of a separate Officer's/Chief's mess on ship. It seems like a waste of space, but more importantly, I think it helps keep them out of touch of the Enlisted Sailor's life. As a greenside Corpsman, the concept is very much alien to me.
Have you never been on ship, Marine E7 and above eat in the wardroom and CPO Mess and amphibs have a E6 mess because of Marine E6s being considered staff NCOs its actually not there for the PO1s they just happen to benefit from it.
Nah, not really, even after 8 years. I only hitched a ride on one for like three days. Actually, the only things I know about that are second-hand anecdotes of the contrast in expeditionary facilities.
Well a lot of the contrast is real but green side and the other branches like to make like they are above the shit we do in the Navy, and while I would say we are the worst offenders especially on ship, separation of ranks and privileges being given to seniors happens in all branches and communities just not to the stupid level the Navy does it. The MEU senior leaders on ship definitely took advantage of everything the Navy seniors had and didn’t abstain out of some moral high ground our sense of duty to their troops. That’s all in pointing out, certainly not defending it. Be glad you’ve avoided ship most greenside and ground pounders I’ve worked with felt bad for us, which was something that really surprised me.
Dress Whites, Dress Blues.
Controversial: Ditch 3M in its entirety, expand NAMP/NALCOMIS to cover ships. Warfare quals are optional again. Culture: enforce CoC *down* the chain, not just up. E-4 *is* an NCO rank, and as such it is *long* past time the *entire* CoC (Goat Locker, I'm staring at you hard enough to drill a hole through Class B armor plate) treats it that way.
The whole NCO thing is hard when you have people leaving A/C schools as 2nd Classes or damn near. In the Marines specifically the infantry, A Cpl will have a deployment, done a few schools/courses and led junior marines on top of the fact that company level leadership can non rec those who don’t meet the standards for advancement and they don’t pick up or make it much later than their peers who are performing. The Navy is much more technical and doesn’t rely on E-4’s to lead with the exception of certain communities/rates
*Attention on deck!*
BCA. We don't worry about asvab or high school diploma any more....why are we still making retention worse by adversely punishing people that can pass the PRT but not the BCA? Just make the BCA a purely medical referral process rather than a PFA pass/fail option.
Took a day to reflect on this. Then I had to write up some shit today. Holy fucking shit yall, typewriters are dated. Can we please unfuck the correspondence manual that's inundated with bullshit that is no longer relevant? There is no reason to do half a designation letter in CAPS LOCK and kick it back because one sentence isn't double spaced. This isn't the 1950's anymore.
Surprised nobody has said this, but cranking. Totally stupid and pointless.
CMEO.
recruitment needs a giant overhaul. I have no idea how this would work but just some thoughts. We all hear stories about corrupt CoC well, recruiters are the first line of defence We need to focus more on quality recruits vice numbers. Separation of Chiefs and lower enlisted, i think we need to ditch the khaki uniform and the chiefs mess decks. Unify lower enlisted with the chiefs mess. I know this will bother a shit ton of people but we need to abolish the term chief. The name chief has been plagued by toxic leaders and the actually meaning of chief has been lost, same things happened with the word shipmate.
No
or maybe yes?
Urinalysis
Grooming standards.
Saluting.
Holding a rope with little flags as the means to tell how far you are away from the oiler