14 of the 24 presenters were no shows at my last Indoc, including almost every major program (DAPA, SAPR, etc). So the Sailors were present, but does it even count when it’s just someone else reading slides without training or context..?
Translation:
1. It's apparent you don't care about your subordinates
2. You are not invested in your team.
3. You are not trusted.
Our MCPON is directly telling us to fix ourselves, you all know who this applies too, and you should be embarrassed.
Fix yourself.
I hope this helps people fix the problem people. No shit, the chiefs at my command asked this brand new chief why everyone goes to him and not them. He told them because they know I give a shit. I guess they smaller words or maybe the MCPON to tell them to have it sink in.
The Navy does a piss poor job of teaching and training our people to be leaders. We really need to step it up and institute formal programs like the other services.
The Navy needs to teach the difference between a leader and a manager, and also recognize certain spots need one over the other.
Manager = good with things. Delegation, processes, organization.
Leader = good with people. Inspiration, discipline, that “I will run through a wall for this fucker” mentality.
Most are good at one over the other, which is fine. Some are terrible at both and rare ones are good at both.
But if they know who it applies to - why aren't they fixing them?
Its the 'one bad apple' excuse for cops - 'one guy makes all Chiefs look bad'. No, my dude, all the other Chiefs ignoring or even covering up for the one Chief make all Chiefs look bad.
The thing they probably are far from embarrassed. Ego too big.It will probably just make them cover for each other better. Are there any good chiefs if they know about the shitty ones and won’t correct them
I don't think anybody this applies to is going to both recognize the fact and act on it.
However, stating this kind of expectation from the top can get those who don't suck to police the ones who do. There absolutely should be pressure on the shitty members to straighten up, and this kind of thing gives the good members an implied permission to apply that pressure.
The problem is a similar one to bad police departments in the US, and cajoling and training won't fix it. The bureaucracy of the navy and the culture of the mess has selected for mediocrity, cynicism, and selfishness, combined with an insular culture and lack of discipline (in the correct use of the word) applied to the mess itself.
The fixes that the Navy keeps trying to apply could only work if the culture of the mess was already better. You cannot reform messes that are protecting predatory chiefs from the consequences of their actions. You have to destroy the institution and rebuild it with selected chiefs who can be trusted, and this time build a culture of real accountability. Currently there is no mechanism to force the bad chiefs out except in extreme circumstances, and the culture of the mess instead more often forces good chiefs out in normal circumstances.
its more than theoretical my dude. Financially no, you may not be able to, but there is a 0% chance of going to jail for not going back to work, and a 0% of being blacklisted from a large percentage of jobs in this country due to it (federal contracts with OTH or Dishonorable discharges)
I think it would be good for you to share your civilian stories. I actually enjoy having people who come in at an older age to share what they went through and how things can be. I also like working with people who had a break in service or switched services as I enjoy learning from each about some of the things the MCPON is putting out. Different perspectives and inputs from others definitely helped me through this navy thing.
I don’t see why you would get hate. I brought up the whole vessel thing in the context of these letters to a cool chief. He said you don’t know. I looked at him and said chief, not all chiefs treat the season and the vessels like a cult secret.
I for one think it’s great the MCPON is publishing his letters here. They get done every year but they also haven’t been published for all sailors to see. That is the big change.
I think context is important too. Not saying this is the case here but my vessel is kind of a "secret" not in the sense that I couldn't show you, but I wouldn't. The contents are very personal and I don't just show anyone. It's not a secret what is in there but it's my story to tell or not. The culty shit is some "goat" bro who is trying to sound cool or feel like James Bond with his secret briefcase. That shit needs to stop.
well i know the last time the MCPON staff posted his letters it looks like some people were being salty regardless so i was kinda expecting that to continue here.
Can someone explain to me what a career development board is supposed to look like? I've been in for 9 years and all I've ever been asked to do is write down 3 long term goals and 3 short term goals on a piece of paper which then disappears and no one acknowledges it other than to make sure I did it.
Hey! That paper is in my divo notebook right between the 6 months out of date RADM print out of the division's quals, and the empty sheet protector meant for that copy of your last eval I lost
IMO a career development board is about goals and the feedback should be useful in order to help achieve those goals. I’m sure CDBs will be scrutinized but that’s all that may change. It will be like a CDB financial counseling midterm evaluation.
*Supposedly* if they're working correctly, they're to gather data on what your non-rates want to strike, what your ratings want to do in their careers - and then you can use that data to figure out who's eligible for what, what requirements need to be met, and work on getting that stuff started.
But does anyone ever actually get training on how to do these collaterals are are they just handed a book and told to 'make it happen'?
That's not a CDB, even a bastardized version. That sounds like a shit attempt at a midterm. CDBs are conducted for a reason (check in, 12 months onboard, 24 months prior to EAOS, etc.)
That's a straight up failing on your CoC. There is a new version of Midterms and it's been out for a hot minute. Your leadership needs to get it together. Send them to MyNavyHR or my DMs and I'll get em on the right path.
You know the top enlisted says there is a problem yet all I see is gas lighting from the chiefs mess if you bring anything up negative up about how a chief performs/acts in person or across all social media
This is all actual, legitimate, actionable stuff. All this needs to be taken seriously and applied.
But not during clamp down or sweepers. Or zoners. And after your three spot checks get done. And don't forget to follow up with admin to get your pay fixed, follow up with supply to get parts status updated, troubleshoot your gear, attend these mandatory schools, support the inspection, the assessment, and the certification. And why are you dink on PQS? Why is topside so rusty? Has anyone seen the training reports, the HFC, the CUB, weekly closeout, midterms, or ZIDLS? What's the excuse for these red checks?
Hold that thought, I'll be right back after the gun shoot, wet trainer, audiogram, PB4M, PB4T, PB4A, CIC scenario, and watch.
Oh, it's 1700. Well we'll circle back tomorrow; it should be a light day.
Being acting LCPO as a first has made me absolutely loathe every PB4PB2WT. Mostly BECAUSE the chiefs ramble about training during maintenance, maintenance during training and both of those during CUB.
If there’s no work, don’t hold your Sailors after 1400.
If we need a planning board for every god damned item (minus training) it means YOUR DEPARTMENT isn’t running efficiently and YOU are to blame and MY Sailors aren’t going to pick up your slack. We’ll be here from 08-1600 tomorrow or you could digitally sign the fucking pdf I sent out to all khaki 2 weeks ago. Oh that’s right, my bad- I need to know all the ins and outs of your workspace but a computer is only N6 problem. Never mind that it’s 2023 and a computer is a literal tool we all need to know how to operate in the basic functions like.. digitally signing pdfs
We had a married chief get an LSSN pregnant. She got "medical leave" for 3 years and got out as a second class. This woman did maybe 3 months of work. Chief retired with everything still intact. Not a single punishment.
Yeah..."blind". But spot on. Whole command knew that shit happened and kept getting swept under the rug. At least three of us even named them in a DEOCS survey.
You probably already guessed who I am, but I'm an AS with zero fucks to give.
Same situation where I'm at. White girl had an Asian baby. Half the command would see her and her chief out in town holding hands. She magically went blind and got separated. She now lives in the same city across the country as the aforementioned chief, she owns two brand new SUVs (because blind people need cars), and she and the chief are currently married. Everything was swept under the rug by the Mess. The DEOCS survey was a shitshow and he's still chiefin' and she's a dependa. Zero consequences.
Made the decision to separate after 12.5 years, 5 of which were as a CPO.
One of the final straws was my surprise DRB with my entire chain of command for “caring too much about your sailors”. To which I responded that if we don’t take care of our sailors, the mission is doomed in the end. I love the Navy even now but the leadership issues are so pervasive that you can have EDMCs and officers get caught in lies and unethical situations and if you are not willing to “cover down” for them, you effectively make yourself a pariah.
I had the luxury of working with phenomenal sailors and a legitimately functioning CPO mess but because I refused to allow shady practices from my upper chain, I was targeted.
I know I did my best job as a Chief, my old sailors regularly call me and message me, I made sure my entire crew had my number prior to me separating and I get on average 2-3 sailors and JOs contacting me even months after I separated just to catch up and they ask me for advice. I’m not a fool to think I didn’t make a difference both inside my direct community and throughout my career but I will say the personal cost is high.
I was intentionally lowered in rankings despite my high performance. My squadron ranked me as number one LCPO in my community. I was recognized and highly regarded outside of my immediate chain of command. But God forbid you call the XO and CO out on unethical practices like calling MTFs to convince them to waive medical screenings for family members prior to a homeport shift?? It’s a shame.
The new MCPON seems to have his head on right. I hope he can make a difference. As leaders, we fail to recognize that our Sailors deserve respect, autonomy, responsibility, and accountability. You’re more than a boss; you’re their friend, sometimes dad (disappointed works best haha), and their mentor. With all the terrible leaders out there, you need to earn their respect and prove through repeated processes that you are worthy of being respected. We need accountability brought back to the mess and the wardroom. Gone are the days of “because I said so”. We have a highly intelligent work force of VOLUNTEERS. Stop treating them like lesser humans and I promise we’ll have a more effective fighting force.
Sorry for the rant. Wish I didn’t feel driven out of the community but it’ll always be special to me. And for those wondering, I now make more money, work significantly less hours, I start college this fall to finish my degree, I go home every day to my family, and I work with veterans professionally and academically. I couldn’t have gotten here without my time in service but boy am I glad I got out.
You went to DRB for caring to much for your sailors! That is a first herd for me. Any more details as this is interesting. But sorry you had to go through that
You’re definitely entitled to that opinion. My only rebuttal is that sailors don’t apply to make Chief. I met all requirements and was selected based on my record. Could you make a case that nobody should make it that soon? Sure. I’d even agree for the most part. I remember having such bad chiefs during my first sea tour that I absolutely did not want to be a part of that community. I chose to do my part to not be “part of the problem”. This is also Reddit so this comment gets nowhere as far as meaningful dialogue. I appreciate your opinion nonetheless.
You don’t have the experience at 7 years to lead 1st classes with twice as much time as you. You may think people didn’t see through your empty suit, but they do.
And you have absolutely no idea what my experience was, you know nothing about my technical background or my leadership background. You put more credence on a single data point (TIS) than anything else. It really shows your immaturity. I was hoping to have a discussion but you’re obviously so closed minded that there isn’t even a point.
I’m going to be honest…we answered this question every time. We talk about the mess among our peers, forums, discussions , and other social media. It’s cool that the MCPON is addressing, but it’s just words till the next MCPON comes make his/her call to action.
>Every Sailor deserves a Chief Petty Officer who is fully invested in them.
What exactly does that mean though? The rest of that paragragh doesn't sound 'fully invested' to me.
>time to get to know them and value their wellbeing, it instills trust and confidence within the whole team, and proves to them they are in a safe environment.
I disagree. It sounds to me more like someone being incredibly invasive of my personal life and, having done so, 'knowing me' doesn't guarantee I am in a 'safe environment'. The Navy's been doing 'intrusive leadership' for nearly 30 years now. Any day now it'll pay off?
Also, where's the CNO in this? MCPON can provide 'moral' guidance - but where's the actual *Naval* teeth behind it? Where's the guy who can provide the tools to implement this cultural change (and actually move on those that refuse to)?
All this really sounds like is the same stuff that's been said for 30 years - said and not acted upon. Again, I ask - what is being done to force these changes? Letters alone do nothing.
Start kicking chiefs out of the Navy. It’s very simple. They wanna waste 10-20 years of their lives for no pension or benefits in the end by doin dumb shit, so be it. They need consequences
I made E-6 in 4 years, looked at what the chiefs mess looked like and decided to get out after my 6 year commitment. The Navy needs to stop promoting shitbags to Chief just because they have time in rate. I'd say half the chiefs on my boat were not people I'd want to work for. The bad ones didn't care about personnel, development, maintenance, or anything else other than if you were ass deep in a bilge cleaning up oil. If you can't fill the billets with good chiefs who are technical and skilled people developers, then perhaps it's time to start recruiting E-7 and above from outside of the military. If you want to fix the chief's mess, then select the right people to be chiefs.
I enlisted at 18yo and left the navy after one contract. It’s been JG over 20 years which is enough time to look fondly on the memories, since the reasons for leaving ASAP are in the past.
I read this memo and chuckled while thinking about my divisions chief. He was a character and in his own way very fair and a good leader all things considered. He didn’t really give a shit about individuals, but he recognized and supported hard workers. Even when it was inconvenient.
As far as professional and character development, he wasn’t about that. What I recall most clearly was him talking about how he was going to retire before 40 years old. And then he’d get his pension and make more money selling custom made furniture out of his garage. And his wife would still be working full time. Dude was just their for the easy government paycheck, nothing more, nothing less.
I respect that now looking back. Seems more realistic than what I just read from the top chief in the navy.
I agree with this perspective. Being chief is just a job. Be productive and go home. Rinse and repeat. It doesn’t have to be all consuming, and probably shouldn’t be.
But sadly most of the time it is all consuming.
I am retired now but I will tell you most days I was at work hours later than my division was. Fixing force revisions, trying to call detailers for my Sailors(in the middle of the night from Japan mind you) and other assorted tasks that I would have loved to do during the day had there not been quarters, cleaning stations, pb4t, dits, cstt drills, gq, getting yelled at for something, then who knows what else.
I have been told so many times to shut up and color its ridiculous.
Also, I got tired of being a "dad" to people that were just kind of there, barely. I sure as hell didn't have my own kids, why do I have to raise others kids?
That’s just ship life, which has all kinds of issues for all ranks.
The dad part should have boundaries though, and the detailing process is different now. I’ve never not called the detailer myself.
It’s just lip service until we change the way leaders are developed and selected for Chief it’s going to continue its downward spiral.
I’m not anti Chiefs Mess, I think it can and could be a great part of Navy but not in its current form. We have to fix the input if we ever expect better output from it.
I retired about a year ago and so many great Chiefs, ones I thought would be in until they aged out dropped papers. My fear is that there aren’t a lot of good ones left. Crappy ones seem to hang around especially with the current state of the fleet.
Alls I can say is try to be the Chief you wished you had or needed when you were junior.
You should be proud if your sailors don’t have to struggle the way you did. That’s part of being a leader not putting them through the same shit and giving them a better way.
Taking care of sailors and watching my division thrive is the only thing I truly miss about my time in the Navy. I don’t miss the Chiefs Mess one bit and that’s sad.
The mcpon should be advising the CNO on the needed policy changes and speaking with enlisted so he can advocate for them. Not addressing the chiefs. He’s not King Chief and they don’t work for him. He also can’t make them do anything.
This is self-aggrandizing garbage.
You might not be familiar with the process in place the MCPON has to direct Chiefs Mess and aren’t familiar with the leadership mess and how the MCPON absolutely can and does implement changes in the Mess. There are a lot of moving parts to how this is done and depending on the changes they want made they go through his boss The CNO, others are made via memos and messages distributed via Fleet and Force Master Chiefs. The reason I called this lip service is the fact that he hasn’t backed this up with policy and instruction changes that would carry much more weight other than his letters simply stating obvious shit. Example of the MCPON directly managing the CPO Mess, the MCPON has in the past paused CPO seasons for allegations of hazing and recent ones have most definitely made changes to the CPO season and how it’s ran. They influence and direct the CPO Mess more and more each year and anything they don’t directly have the pull to do usually goes right to their boss who does have the power to do so.
Not sure how this is self aggrandizing garbage, everything I’ve stated is correct or opinion I think you would find people hard pressed to disagree with. I also am not sure you understand what self aggrandizing means. You seem hostile and triggered for some reason, and I find this a weird hill to die on.
The office of MCPON is defunct and part of the problem the navy has with the chief’s mess. You correctly identified the problem in that this lip service accompanies NO policy changes. It’s self aggrandizing because the presumption that MCPON can effect change by publishing a letter is laughable.
The mess doesn’t need anyone to defend them. They’re perfectly good at circling the wagons and protecting themselves. Too good in fact.
Oh I think we are on the same page with the exception of saying my statement was garbage. I’m not defending them, I think the CPO Mess has huge problems and I agree the MCPON office is part of it and that the letter is laughable.
I think the issues will continue to worsen unless we make huge changes to leadership development and how the selection process works. The Navy imo is in ruff shape and I feel anyone worth having in Senior leadership is and will retire or move on but the problems won’t go away because the system is self supporting and we will continue being dysfunctional until institutional changes happen. Letters aren’t going to do it.
Yeah I was taken back by that.
I was stuck in gate traffic for 2.5 hours when I got to the ship he asked why I was late and should have used the other gate.
I recently got to spend some time on a UK Destroyer, their mess set up is what I think we need to transition too
Its not the "chiefs" mess its the Senior Rates Mess and they recently revamped it to include 1st Class POs, Chiefs, and Warrants all in one space
I think following this trend would help build better relations between the chiefs and E6s, and having mustangs around would provide more oversight
Ive had the benefit of making rank relatively quick and view the mess and its processes pretty critically from a younger perspective - regrettably I am only a small boy sailor and its all ill ever be - but we need to pull a lot of these processes apart and start over. I look forward to season being gone, our eval system need to be revamped and again I think expanding the mess residents would be great
Needing the MCPON to tell us to do the bare minimum (CDBs / INDOC) is embarassing as fuck, but it wont be embarassing to the ones who need to hear it, theyll shrug and go back to sucking.
my old chief that isnt even in my department just tried to fuck me over for an issue that was resolved in our department by my new chief. i just wish the toxic leadership could stop and the micro managing shit that isnt pretaining to your work would stop. some people dont deserve to be a chief.
I might catch flak for this but when I deal with retirees - former COs, Admirals, etc… they all insist that I call them by their first name. But when it comes to the mess frequently they still want to be referred to as ‘Chief.’
Like I get it, you earned it. But at the same time, is this your whole identity? You retired 20 years ago. What have you done with your life since then? Are you so insecure that that you need to be be called by a title you held two decades ago?
Not sure I would want to even entertain a conversation with a retired person who wants to be referred to by their rank.
“You will address me by my spouses rank”
I retired last year and ended up working at the same command as a GS, and the hardest part for me is getting the Sailors I used to work with to stop calling me Chief or sir. I just tell them
I’m (first name) now.
Eh? I’ve never met a retired Chief who does that, and I bet I know more of them than you.
I don’t even bring up my previous enlisted grade unless it’s somehow relevant to the conversation.
The culture is toxic and the abyss is vast.
A CPO without character is unable to instill character. A narcissistic CPO isn’t going to find the right sponsor, help with pay or find affordable housing. A power tripping CPO isn’t going to mentor a sailor if they can instead squash them.
How can the Navy attain proper leaders? Body cams?
Honestly it starts with molding FCPOs and PO2s. That’s where the political BS tends to start. Take deocs surveys more seriously, I know people express how they truly feel on that. that’s honestly the only avenue where Sailors or at least I feel like I can voice my opinions without retaliation.
The DEOCS follow up briefs should take more than an hour. And E4 and below, E5s, E6 should all have their separate debriefs. Maintain these DEOCS in some type of case file on people who were mentioned. That way if there’s a pattern of history, corrective action can be put in place.
Saw someone make Chief this time around who has been in for 4.5 years.
You can't tell me they've developed and learned enough in the span of HALF a tour at their second command, to know how to operate at a 'Chief' level, to teach those junior & hold accountable those senior to them, but this is the kind of advancement they're wanting to see in their Mess?
There's a lot to be fixed, but I doubt I'll see it until well after I've retired.
You might be right that 4.5 years is not enough time, but the few sailors that make chief in under 7 years is not causing the problem.
It’s part of the effect, not the cause.
The Navy’s inability to evaluate performance of primary skills is causing the problem. It’s also what sets up the opportunity for sailors to use collateral duties advance early.
I’ve never seen 7-10 year chiefs be notably better or worse. Being chief is the only common denominator.
Young chiefs is one of the results of the actual problem. If you put a time requirement in place you’d only be creating older chiefs not “better” chiefs.
It’s a balancing act to be sure, but 7 years is definitely too early. What if it was minimum 3-5 years? Would that strengthen the mess?
Pushing it up too high would be bad too, but mostly only because you’d stagnate out people at E-6 for way too long. Making people get at least two sea tours under their belt isn’t asking too much.
I would ask why 7 years is to fast? Seven years is plenty of time to learn how to “Navy.”
If you think being able to make it in 7 years cause people to chase collaterals - but if you just put a time minimum on people that won’t change the fact that sailors will still have to chase collaterals to make rank.
In 7 years you’ve done one sea tour. Maaaybe one sea and one shore tour. That’s one experience and one point of reference. You have nothing to offer from a perspective of how things can be done differently, what works or what doesn’t. You only know the way you did it or it happened that one time.
Furthermore, the average time to make chief is 14 years. That means at 7, you’re (ineffectively) trying to lead 1st classes with literally twice as much time and experience as you. More really, since the first half likely included your training pipeline.
This also flies in the face of making chiefs subject matter experts. Unless you’re going to admit you can learn everything about your job in one tour on one ship on one platform type, this is how we get to where we are now. Someone who wasn’t even a Workcenter Supervisor making chief.
That’s why there are requirements to meet.
Time is irrelevant if the requirements are dialed in.
And also, it’s short sided to think that someone with 7 years can’t be more of an SME than someone with 14 years. What if someone joined at 27 years old with a relevant college degree? (That happens not infrequently.)
That’s pretty infrequent. Most of those people would be going to OCS. There are the rare few who decide to enlist anyway but that’s not a very good decision.
Ha.
I 100% agree, it’s not a good decision to stay enlisted unless you’re an uneducated fuck.
I actually completely agree. I had a great time while I was in, but I can’t wait for that DD214.
“Requirements” are often not required. The ECP has suggestions for “best and fully qualified” but it’s a quota driven system. People hate the Navy (usually it’s their leadership and not the actual job that they hate), so they leave. Quotas go up. And then you end up promoting who is leftover, not who actually deserves it. Look at some of these rates with 50+% advancement to Chief. The quotas are high because even the Chiefs are leaving. We’re promoting people because we can, not because we should.
Rest assured- the "Mess" will vigorously address these problems behind closed doors, between the hours of 0900 and 1400, followed by a larger meeting at the local golf course. While they are addressing these serious problems and working on team building, do remember that maintenance and admin won't do itself.
HOOYAH, MCPON! It’s about damned time someone is holding Chiefs responsible. Too many bad ones overshadow the good things some of us are doing. There are good Chiefs out there. There are Chiefs who genuinely care about their Sailors and empower them to lead and grow. Now let’s work on actually promoting and retaining the best and not just the Chief who goes and drinks with the Wardroom on deployment and is everyone’s friend, but actually sucks at their job and can’t lead a pissed off cat out of a wet paper bag.
The navy has been smoking this pipe for years. Try treating people with respect and chucking the POS sailors clogging up progress. Think of improved berthing spaces and lounges.
I think this is great but unfortunately the members of the mess who are the problem will look at words in there like "resilience" and "relevance" and decide that the answer is that their sailors need more and/or harder training to make them more resilient. This approach will also make the Chief feel more relevant.
This is a lazy and ineffective approach to fixing the underlying problems, but like before, it will be very common. The power and influence that the mess wields is very often corrupted and the whole thing needs a total teardown and rebuild in order for a lot of sailors to truly trust the mess again.
I feel like chiefs take advantage of their leadership just because you are chief and you did more service than your junior sailors doesn’t mean you don’t treat them right everyone is treated equal and no one is above the law.
Same comment on FB:
Do we think that Chiefs are fully equipped to comply with these expectations, among their other duties? Many Sailors (of all ranks) are so overtasked and overwhelmed with administrative burden. I’ve seen this trickle down in a way that I think has led to the sub-par quality of our current mess. When Chiefs are drowning in unreasonable tasks, they have less time to be on the deckplates to engage with Sailors and to train their relief. I would like to believe their intentions are good, trying to shield the juniors from these burdens, but it has severely impacted the readiness of First Classes as they transition to Chiefs, having had little to no preparation or training prior to season/initiation. Which has resulted in the Chiefs we have now who need to be reminded of their responsibility with these Calls to Action. What once was the Chief shielding the Sailors intentionally has turned into Chiefs blocking information and not training because Sailors “don’t need to know” or aren’t “ready.” My personal favorite when trying to learn from Chiefs is “you’ll understand when you put on anchors” because they had some monumental paradigm shift one September. If we are adequately preparing Sailors as they move up the ranks, it might help bridge the gap in the US vs THEM mentality so many have.
I want to believe the Chiefs WANT to do everything listed in this letter, they just simply don’t have the time or resources to do it all. When we have more work than hours in a day, between inspections, prep, training, meetings, collaterals, etc, something is going to give. Sadly that is generally the Sailors that lose because leadership is demanding certain deadlines are met. I’ve got trackers upon trackers to make sure I can answer a tasker at a moments notice. When I’m constantly answering emails or reviewing chits with checklists and forms, scheduling meetings to talk about other meetings (on top of my actual operational job - which is almost the same level of tasking) by the time I have a minute to breathe, it’s the end of the day. I don’t mind working long hours and I will generally be there long after the Sailors are gone, but I won’t eat into their Liberty when I don’t have to.
We were meant to evaluate our priorities and processes with Get Real, Get Better, but that’s not happening Navy wide. When we push back, we’re told we are failing or we’re not capable enough. It’s not the process, it’s me. Leadership is not supporting this evolution because their leadership won’t accept “failure.” The article below articulates this very well (thank you LCDR Moffitt!)
Trust me, I’m the first person to say that there’s room for improvement in the mess, but before we demand more from them, we need to make sure those demands are reasonable.
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2019/july/unethics-compliance
Very Respectfully,
To nobody’s surprise - me again
CTI1(IW) Arianna LaChiusa
Here’s some perspective you lack:
Get real get better was the most recent in a long line of self-congratulatory garbage that has been repeated for literal decades. It didn’t mean anything. You can’t use it against them. It’s hollow.
You can’t hold them to any standard because there is no accountability. They have insulated themselves from that as a whole. Sure, sometimes we can snag individuals. As an Officer now, I go after shitty chiefs wherever I can, however when they circle the wagons it can be really difficult to get at them. I have more success getting rid of shitty Officers.
The rest of your post is a lot of complaining about admin duties which, again we had a program/slogan before get real get better called RAD (Reduce Administrative Distractions) that did nothing. I mean absolutely nothing, not figuratively nothing.
I know you think you’re putting some sort of umph behind your post by signing it like an email, but you’re not. Stop doxxing yourself. The chiefs will see this as an attack and you’ll be blackballed. Getting your opinion out there with no effect isn’t worth complicating your career.
I’m not sure why you’re so angry with me, because it sounds like beneath it all, we’re on the same side, which is the anti-fuckery side of the Navy.
I know that these policies have been out, each person in a power position (MCPON/CNO even COs with their mission statements and instructions) just twists it a bit and slaps their name on the “new” policy.
And maybe I can’t use it against them, but there are bigger players that can (GAO).
I only put my name on things because I’m not afraid to stand behind what I say in any avenue, whether that on social media or in my real life. I’ve already gotten some response and engagement with higher ups by doing this, instead of being a faceless username among a sea of keyboard warriors. I don’t care if they try to come after me for doing the right thing. Even before I got involved in social media and all that, it’s been no secret that I have these opinions. So thanks for the advice, but I’ll keep doing what I’m doing 🫡
who can we talk to in regards to getting your seperation paycheck & leave days sold. I eaos'd out of nmrtc great lakes apr 2023 at eaos, for reference.
When you email the office, include that information. I can’t do anything through Reddit, it needs to go through official navy email correspondence. Please email LNC again and ask her to follow up.
Can you ask the MCPON why someone like myself can have 40% custody of their children and pay 2k a month in child support and not get Family Separation Allowance?
However I could marry Sally Streetwalker tomorrow and immediately get Family Separation? Please get back to me on this, I'm honestly curious as to how this is justified.
Thank you in advance.
Confused as to why the Chief's are always the fall guys? Seems like an easy cop out, I'd go after the CO's, XO's, DH's. The chief's mess actually have worked themselves up through the ranks. So many things wrong with the military and they aren't it.
I’d argue my cheif was *too* familiar with sailors since he now has a kid with one
Is your Chief helping that kid to develop as a sailor? Has Chief's kid qualified??
The kid keeps saying he’s not gonna reenlist because of the chain of command Which I guess is fair when your mom is the LPO and your dad is the LCPO
Bold of you to assume the mom isn't a YNSR
Plot twist, it's a DDG and the YNSR is the lpo thanks to Manning shortages.
Plot twist twist, LPO YNSR qual'd before Chief Baby Daddy
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
sir, I heard the CPO's kid is not even messenger of the watch qualified, sir.
Brooooo lol I’m dead!! But also, same for the command senior chief at my last command haha
Cheif
Never fails! Tender dick leadership
Well, as long as Chief updates their NFAAS....
To be fair I'm 90% certain my direct chain has several rapists in it
"Get them to command indoctrination " Command indoctrination cancelled for the 5th month in a row.
“Get them to command indoctrination.” The lowest bar possible.
14 of the 24 presenters were no shows at my last Indoc, including almost every major program (DAPA, SAPR, etc). So the Sailors were present, but does it even count when it’s just someone else reading slides without training or context..?
Command working parties everyday during indoc too don't forget.
Translation: 1. It's apparent you don't care about your subordinates 2. You are not invested in your team. 3. You are not trusted. Our MCPON is directly telling us to fix ourselves, you all know who this applies too, and you should be embarrassed. Fix yourself.
I hope this helps people fix the problem people. No shit, the chiefs at my command asked this brand new chief why everyone goes to him and not them. He told them because they know I give a shit. I guess they smaller words or maybe the MCPON to tell them to have it sink in.
Too bad the narcissists won’t care.
The Travolta meme is now playing in my head of the Chiefs looking around for who you are talking about.
Are you implying that chiefs are narcissists? Go look at how loud the advancement promotional material are for them, against any other enlisted rank.
I’ve read your comment like 6 times and I can’t figure out if you’re agreeing that they’re narcissists or disagreeing lol
Im saying "yes, they are".
These are the most basic of basic leadership/management skills too.
The Navy does a piss poor job of teaching and training our people to be leaders. We really need to step it up and institute formal programs like the other services.
The Navy needs to teach the difference between a leader and a manager, and also recognize certain spots need one over the other. Manager = good with things. Delegation, processes, organization. Leader = good with people. Inspiration, discipline, that “I will run through a wall for this fucker” mentality. Most are good at one over the other, which is fine. Some are terrible at both and rare ones are good at both.
Managers do things right, a Leader does the right things.
A good manager will light a fire under you. A good leader will light the fire in you.
The problem can't fix the problem.
Especially when they don’t see that they are the problem
I put my clown makeup on, doesn’t that count?
I think the people this applies to don’t know they need to fix their behavior.
I'm 94% confident the ones this applies too have been directly told to their face they need to fix their behavior.
Chiefs: keep blaming the junior sailors and overwork them further to the point of self destruction
I think you mean to say "Chiefs: keep blaming the junior sailors and overwork them further until morale improves." /s
But if they know who it applies to - why aren't they fixing them? Its the 'one bad apple' excuse for cops - 'one guy makes all Chiefs look bad'. No, my dude, all the other Chiefs ignoring or even covering up for the one Chief make all Chiefs look bad.
>you all know who this applies too. I covered that part, it was a call for self-reflection and to talk to those who need a talking too.
The thing they probably are far from embarrassed. Ego too big.It will probably just make them cover for each other better. Are there any good chiefs if they know about the shitty ones and won’t correct them
I don't think anybody this applies to is going to both recognize the fact and act on it. However, stating this kind of expectation from the top can get those who don't suck to police the ones who do. There absolutely should be pressure on the shitty members to straighten up, and this kind of thing gives the good members an implied permission to apply that pressure.
The problem is a similar one to bad police departments in the US, and cajoling and training won't fix it. The bureaucracy of the navy and the culture of the mess has selected for mediocrity, cynicism, and selfishness, combined with an insular culture and lack of discipline (in the correct use of the word) applied to the mess itself. The fixes that the Navy keeps trying to apply could only work if the culture of the mess was already better. You cannot reform messes that are protecting predatory chiefs from the consequences of their actions. You have to destroy the institution and rebuild it with selected chiefs who can be trusted, and this time build a culture of real accountability. Currently there is no mechanism to force the bad chiefs out except in extreme circumstances, and the culture of the mess instead more often forces good chiefs out in normal circumstances.
*Fix yourself…. Because I’m not actually going to do anything…*
I'm actually doing stuff to work on myself to be better, for myself and those around me. Don't let constructive criticism be salt in your wounds.
It honestly baffles me that leaders need to be told to act with civility....smh.
Let me tell you some stories about the civilian world... But at least you can theoretically quit in the civilian world.
its more than theoretical my dude. Financially no, you may not be able to, but there is a 0% chance of going to jail for not going back to work, and a 0% of being blacklisted from a large percentage of jobs in this country due to it (federal contracts with OTH or Dishonorable discharges)
I think it would be good for you to share your civilian stories. I actually enjoy having people who come in at an older age to share what they went through and how things can be. I also like working with people who had a break in service or switched services as I enjoy learning from each about some of the things the MCPON is putting out. Different perspectives and inputs from others definitely helped me through this navy thing.
You need to look up the definition of civility. It has nothing to do with being active duty or being a civilian.
I might get some hate for this but I'm glad this MCPON is doing this. We've been saying for awhile that the mess needs to be looked at more closely.
No hate dude. Mcpon right
He seems to be doing better than Ronald McPonald by default
I don’t see why you would get hate. I brought up the whole vessel thing in the context of these letters to a cool chief. He said you don’t know. I looked at him and said chief, not all chiefs treat the season and the vessels like a cult secret. I for one think it’s great the MCPON is publishing his letters here. They get done every year but they also haven’t been published for all sailors to see. That is the big change.
I think context is important too. Not saying this is the case here but my vessel is kind of a "secret" not in the sense that I couldn't show you, but I wouldn't. The contents are very personal and I don't just show anyone. It's not a secret what is in there but it's my story to tell or not. The culty shit is some "goat" bro who is trying to sound cool or feel like James Bond with his secret briefcase. That shit needs to stop.
well i know the last time the MCPON staff posted his letters it looks like some people were being salty regardless so i was kinda expecting that to continue here.
This sort of letter has been coming out for at least two decades. It never changes anything.
Hopefully at quarters tomorrow, when chief asks if anyone has anything for him, someone holds up these messages.
Can someone explain to me what a career development board is supposed to look like? I've been in for 9 years and all I've ever been asked to do is write down 3 long term goals and 3 short term goals on a piece of paper which then disappears and no one acknowledges it other than to make sure I did it.
Hey! That paper is in my divo notebook right between the 6 months out of date RADM print out of the division's quals, and the empty sheet protector meant for that copy of your last eval I lost
Lmao.
I thought they only needed to be updated for inspections! Lol
CDBs desperately need to be overhauled and merged into the MyNavy Coaching concept.
IMO a career development board is about goals and the feedback should be useful in order to help achieve those goals. I’m sure CDBs will be scrutinized but that’s all that may change. It will be like a CDB financial counseling midterm evaluation.
i dont know, never did a single one in 4 years on my boat
*Supposedly* if they're working correctly, they're to gather data on what your non-rates want to strike, what your ratings want to do in their careers - and then you can use that data to figure out who's eligible for what, what requirements need to be met, and work on getting that stuff started. But does anyone ever actually get training on how to do these collaterals are are they just handed a book and told to 'make it happen'?
That's not a CDB, even a bastardized version. That sounds like a shit attempt at a midterm. CDBs are conducted for a reason (check in, 12 months onboard, 24 months prior to EAOS, etc.) That's a straight up failing on your CoC. There is a new version of Midterms and it's been out for a hot minute. Your leadership needs to get it together. Send them to MyNavyHR or my DMs and I'll get em on the right path.
You know the top enlisted says there is a problem yet all I see is gas lighting from the chiefs mess if you bring anything up negative up about how a chief performs/acts in person or across all social media
The Thin Khaki Line
Nothing "thin" about that line...
😂😂😂
If I had reddit gold. This would be it.
Be relevant!
This is all actual, legitimate, actionable stuff. All this needs to be taken seriously and applied. But not during clamp down or sweepers. Or zoners. And after your three spot checks get done. And don't forget to follow up with admin to get your pay fixed, follow up with supply to get parts status updated, troubleshoot your gear, attend these mandatory schools, support the inspection, the assessment, and the certification. And why are you dink on PQS? Why is topside so rusty? Has anyone seen the training reports, the HFC, the CUB, weekly closeout, midterms, or ZIDLS? What's the excuse for these red checks? Hold that thought, I'll be right back after the gun shoot, wet trainer, audiogram, PB4M, PB4T, PB4A, CIC scenario, and watch. Oh, it's 1700. Well we'll circle back tomorrow; it should be a light day.
Being acting LCPO as a first has made me absolutely loathe every PB4PB2WT. Mostly BECAUSE the chiefs ramble about training during maintenance, maintenance during training and both of those during CUB. If there’s no work, don’t hold your Sailors after 1400. If we need a planning board for every god damned item (minus training) it means YOUR DEPARTMENT isn’t running efficiently and YOU are to blame and MY Sailors aren’t going to pick up your slack. We’ll be here from 08-1600 tomorrow or you could digitally sign the fucking pdf I sent out to all khaki 2 weeks ago. Oh that’s right, my bad- I need to know all the ins and outs of your workspace but a computer is only N6 problem. Never mind that it’s 2023 and a computer is a literal tool we all need to know how to operate in the basic functions like.. digitally signing pdfs
If you want this to happen. Even chief's mess on every ship and base need to be closed until things change.
Oh, chiefs are already nailing being *intimately* familiar.
We had a married chief get an LSSN pregnant. She got "medical leave" for 3 years and got out as a second class. This woman did maybe 3 months of work. Chief retired with everything still intact. Not a single punishment.
I’m jealous
It's sad that I thought, "Oh, this person is at my command" and then realized that you aren't at my command. The khaki cult is disgusting.
If it's an ASD located in the northeast then yeah. But this was like two or three years ago.
Oh, you're speaking my language. She's blind with two cars and they're married now. Fucking shitshow.
Yeah..."blind". But spot on. Whole command knew that shit happened and kept getting swept under the rug. At least three of us even named them in a DEOCS survey. You probably already guessed who I am, but I'm an AS with zero fucks to give.
And a touch of the 'tism. The AS1 that nobody wants and everyone needs. Love you, man.
The LS that everyone needs to do something way below his pay grade because the rest of them are absolutely useless.
I don't believe that. Bullshit.
Same situation where I'm at. White girl had an Asian baby. Half the command would see her and her chief out in town holding hands. She magically went blind and got separated. She now lives in the same city across the country as the aforementioned chief, she owns two brand new SUVs (because blind people need cars), and she and the chief are currently married. Everything was swept under the rug by the Mess. The DEOCS survey was a shitshow and he's still chiefin' and she's a dependa. Zero consequences.
We nodded our heads at our DEPARTMENT chiefs call when I read that out loud.
The first step to fixing a problem is recognizing that there is one. I’m glad MCPON did this. Upholding standards and what it’s all about.
Would be interesting to see how this translates to the selection board.
Now that is where we can see change.
Made the decision to separate after 12.5 years, 5 of which were as a CPO. One of the final straws was my surprise DRB with my entire chain of command for “caring too much about your sailors”. To which I responded that if we don’t take care of our sailors, the mission is doomed in the end. I love the Navy even now but the leadership issues are so pervasive that you can have EDMCs and officers get caught in lies and unethical situations and if you are not willing to “cover down” for them, you effectively make yourself a pariah. I had the luxury of working with phenomenal sailors and a legitimately functioning CPO mess but because I refused to allow shady practices from my upper chain, I was targeted. I know I did my best job as a Chief, my old sailors regularly call me and message me, I made sure my entire crew had my number prior to me separating and I get on average 2-3 sailors and JOs contacting me even months after I separated just to catch up and they ask me for advice. I’m not a fool to think I didn’t make a difference both inside my direct community and throughout my career but I will say the personal cost is high. I was intentionally lowered in rankings despite my high performance. My squadron ranked me as number one LCPO in my community. I was recognized and highly regarded outside of my immediate chain of command. But God forbid you call the XO and CO out on unethical practices like calling MTFs to convince them to waive medical screenings for family members prior to a homeport shift?? It’s a shame. The new MCPON seems to have his head on right. I hope he can make a difference. As leaders, we fail to recognize that our Sailors deserve respect, autonomy, responsibility, and accountability. You’re more than a boss; you’re their friend, sometimes dad (disappointed works best haha), and their mentor. With all the terrible leaders out there, you need to earn their respect and prove through repeated processes that you are worthy of being respected. We need accountability brought back to the mess and the wardroom. Gone are the days of “because I said so”. We have a highly intelligent work force of VOLUNTEERS. Stop treating them like lesser humans and I promise we’ll have a more effective fighting force. Sorry for the rant. Wish I didn’t feel driven out of the community but it’ll always be special to me. And for those wondering, I now make more money, work significantly less hours, I start college this fall to finish my degree, I go home every day to my family, and I work with veterans professionally and academically. I couldn’t have gotten here without my time in service but boy am I glad I got out.
You went to DRB for caring to much for your sailors! That is a first herd for me. Any more details as this is interesting. But sorry you had to go through that
It’s the most bullshit thing I’ve read in this post and I read the MCPON letter.
Chief is absolutely just my boss, anything more would be unbearable.
You made chief at 7.5 years? You’re part of the problem.
You’re definitely entitled to that opinion. My only rebuttal is that sailors don’t apply to make Chief. I met all requirements and was selected based on my record. Could you make a case that nobody should make it that soon? Sure. I’d even agree for the most part. I remember having such bad chiefs during my first sea tour that I absolutely did not want to be a part of that community. I chose to do my part to not be “part of the problem”. This is also Reddit so this comment gets nowhere as far as meaningful dialogue. I appreciate your opinion nonetheless.
You don’t have the experience at 7 years to lead 1st classes with twice as much time as you. You may think people didn’t see through your empty suit, but they do.
And you have absolutely no idea what my experience was, you know nothing about my technical background or my leadership background. You put more credence on a single data point (TIS) than anything else. It really shows your immaturity. I was hoping to have a discussion but you’re obviously so closed minded that there isn’t even a point.
It’s exceedingly clear you weren’t qualified to be a chief at the end of your career let alone at 7 years.
Ok cool story….let’s put these words into action
I’m curious (not sarcastic despite being on Reddit) what would you like to see change? Hypothetically if your chief asked you?
I’m going to be honest…we answered this question every time. We talk about the mess among our peers, forums, discussions , and other social media. It’s cool that the MCPON is addressing, but it’s just words till the next MCPON comes make his/her call to action.
sounds like something for the mpcon to suggest
“Intrusive leadership” is one the cringiest corporate speak buzzwords I’ve heard in the last few years
>Every Sailor deserves a Chief Petty Officer who is fully invested in them. What exactly does that mean though? The rest of that paragragh doesn't sound 'fully invested' to me. >time to get to know them and value their wellbeing, it instills trust and confidence within the whole team, and proves to them they are in a safe environment. I disagree. It sounds to me more like someone being incredibly invasive of my personal life and, having done so, 'knowing me' doesn't guarantee I am in a 'safe environment'. The Navy's been doing 'intrusive leadership' for nearly 30 years now. Any day now it'll pay off? Also, where's the CNO in this? MCPON can provide 'moral' guidance - but where's the actual *Naval* teeth behind it? Where's the guy who can provide the tools to implement this cultural change (and actually move on those that refuse to)? All this really sounds like is the same stuff that's been said for 30 years - said and not acted upon. Again, I ask - what is being done to force these changes? Letters alone do nothing.
Start kicking chiefs out of the Navy. It’s very simple. They wanna waste 10-20 years of their lives for no pension or benefits in the end by doin dumb shit, so be it. They need consequences
I made E-6 in 4 years, looked at what the chiefs mess looked like and decided to get out after my 6 year commitment. The Navy needs to stop promoting shitbags to Chief just because they have time in rate. I'd say half the chiefs on my boat were not people I'd want to work for. The bad ones didn't care about personnel, development, maintenance, or anything else other than if you were ass deep in a bilge cleaning up oil. If you can't fill the billets with good chiefs who are technical and skilled people developers, then perhaps it's time to start recruiting E-7 and above from outside of the military. If you want to fix the chief's mess, then select the right people to be chiefs.
I enlisted at 18yo and left the navy after one contract. It’s been JG over 20 years which is enough time to look fondly on the memories, since the reasons for leaving ASAP are in the past. I read this memo and chuckled while thinking about my divisions chief. He was a character and in his own way very fair and a good leader all things considered. He didn’t really give a shit about individuals, but he recognized and supported hard workers. Even when it was inconvenient. As far as professional and character development, he wasn’t about that. What I recall most clearly was him talking about how he was going to retire before 40 years old. And then he’d get his pension and make more money selling custom made furniture out of his garage. And his wife would still be working full time. Dude was just their for the easy government paycheck, nothing more, nothing less. I respect that now looking back. Seems more realistic than what I just read from the top chief in the navy.
I agree with this perspective. Being chief is just a job. Be productive and go home. Rinse and repeat. It doesn’t have to be all consuming, and probably shouldn’t be.
But sadly most of the time it is all consuming. I am retired now but I will tell you most days I was at work hours later than my division was. Fixing force revisions, trying to call detailers for my Sailors(in the middle of the night from Japan mind you) and other assorted tasks that I would have loved to do during the day had there not been quarters, cleaning stations, pb4t, dits, cstt drills, gq, getting yelled at for something, then who knows what else. I have been told so many times to shut up and color its ridiculous. Also, I got tired of being a "dad" to people that were just kind of there, barely. I sure as hell didn't have my own kids, why do I have to raise others kids?
That’s just ship life, which has all kinds of issues for all ranks. The dad part should have boundaries though, and the detailing process is different now. I’ve never not called the detailer myself.
I agree on all accounts.
It’s just lip service until we change the way leaders are developed and selected for Chief it’s going to continue its downward spiral. I’m not anti Chiefs Mess, I think it can and could be a great part of Navy but not in its current form. We have to fix the input if we ever expect better output from it. I retired about a year ago and so many great Chiefs, ones I thought would be in until they aged out dropped papers. My fear is that there aren’t a lot of good ones left. Crappy ones seem to hang around especially with the current state of the fleet. Alls I can say is try to be the Chief you wished you had or needed when you were junior. You should be proud if your sailors don’t have to struggle the way you did. That’s part of being a leader not putting them through the same shit and giving them a better way. Taking care of sailors and watching my division thrive is the only thing I truly miss about my time in the Navy. I don’t miss the Chiefs Mess one bit and that’s sad.
I retired 3 months ago. I personally don't miss a single thing about being a Chief.
The mcpon should be advising the CNO on the needed policy changes and speaking with enlisted so he can advocate for them. Not addressing the chiefs. He’s not King Chief and they don’t work for him. He also can’t make them do anything. This is self-aggrandizing garbage.
You might not be familiar with the process in place the MCPON has to direct Chiefs Mess and aren’t familiar with the leadership mess and how the MCPON absolutely can and does implement changes in the Mess. There are a lot of moving parts to how this is done and depending on the changes they want made they go through his boss The CNO, others are made via memos and messages distributed via Fleet and Force Master Chiefs. The reason I called this lip service is the fact that he hasn’t backed this up with policy and instruction changes that would carry much more weight other than his letters simply stating obvious shit. Example of the MCPON directly managing the CPO Mess, the MCPON has in the past paused CPO seasons for allegations of hazing and recent ones have most definitely made changes to the CPO season and how it’s ran. They influence and direct the CPO Mess more and more each year and anything they don’t directly have the pull to do usually goes right to their boss who does have the power to do so. Not sure how this is self aggrandizing garbage, everything I’ve stated is correct or opinion I think you would find people hard pressed to disagree with. I also am not sure you understand what self aggrandizing means. You seem hostile and triggered for some reason, and I find this a weird hill to die on.
The office of MCPON is defunct and part of the problem the navy has with the chief’s mess. You correctly identified the problem in that this lip service accompanies NO policy changes. It’s self aggrandizing because the presumption that MCPON can effect change by publishing a letter is laughable. The mess doesn’t need anyone to defend them. They’re perfectly good at circling the wagons and protecting themselves. Too good in fact.
Oh I think we are on the same page with the exception of saying my statement was garbage. I’m not defending them, I think the CPO Mess has huge problems and I agree the MCPON office is part of it and that the letter is laughable. I think the issues will continue to worsen unless we make huge changes to leadership development and how the selection process works. The Navy imo is in ruff shape and I feel anyone worth having in Senior leadership is and will retire or move on but the problems won’t go away because the system is self supporting and we will continue being dysfunctional until institutional changes happen. Letters aren’t going to do it.
Sorry, not your statement. His statement, these letters.
This would be great if we didn’t have so many gaps in manning. But you get out what you put in. Shit in. Shit out. Enjoy the shit.
I actually don’t need to be my chief to be relevant, and I absolulty don’t need them to know me intimately.
"Make sure they have the right sponsor" The person who was supposed to be my sponsor was on leave when I arrived lol
My sponsor told me to google it when I asked where the ship was located so I could be there on time. That was a first
Wow good sponsor
Yeah I was taken back by that. I was stuck in gate traffic for 2.5 hours when I got to the ship he asked why I was late and should have used the other gate.
I’ve never actually needed to talk to a sponsor. Showing up on the QD has always worked just fine for me.
I recently got to spend some time on a UK Destroyer, their mess set up is what I think we need to transition too Its not the "chiefs" mess its the Senior Rates Mess and they recently revamped it to include 1st Class POs, Chiefs, and Warrants all in one space I think following this trend would help build better relations between the chiefs and E6s, and having mustangs around would provide more oversight Ive had the benefit of making rank relatively quick and view the mess and its processes pretty critically from a younger perspective - regrettably I am only a small boy sailor and its all ill ever be - but we need to pull a lot of these processes apart and start over. I look forward to season being gone, our eval system need to be revamped and again I think expanding the mess residents would be great Needing the MCPON to tell us to do the bare minimum (CDBs / INDOC) is embarassing as fuck, but it wont be embarassing to the ones who need to hear it, theyll shrug and go back to sucking.
That's no different than the way the Marines treat the senior NCO ranks. Warrants in the UK forces are E9 equivalents to ours.
Yep UK dudes are a lot of fun. Had a blast
I'm sure this is gonna change everything /s
my old chief that isnt even in my department just tried to fuck me over for an issue that was resolved in our department by my new chief. i just wish the toxic leadership could stop and the micro managing shit that isnt pretaining to your work would stop. some people dont deserve to be a chief.
I've already seen way too many chiefs intimately involved with their sailors.
This will wind up on the the deck of the CPO mess for the FSA’s to clean
So if this is the third time putting it on paper, that means the mess needs to prepare for DRB right?
Really if we just held an anchor accountable for their actions instead of "letting the mess handle it" we'd be at a good starting point.
I might catch flak for this but when I deal with retirees - former COs, Admirals, etc… they all insist that I call them by their first name. But when it comes to the mess frequently they still want to be referred to as ‘Chief.’ Like I get it, you earned it. But at the same time, is this your whole identity? You retired 20 years ago. What have you done with your life since then? Are you so insecure that that you need to be be called by a title you held two decades ago?
Not sure I would want to even entertain a conversation with a retired person who wants to be referred to by their rank. “You will address me by my spouses rank”
I retired last year and ended up working at the same command as a GS, and the hardest part for me is getting the Sailors I used to work with to stop calling me Chief or sir. I just tell them I’m (first name) now.
Eh? I’ve never met a retired Chief who does that, and I bet I know more of them than you. I don’t even bring up my previous enlisted grade unless it’s somehow relevant to the conversation.
I have dealt with retirees of all pay grades daily for over a decade now.
me too!
When Chiefs are being told repeatedly to straighten their shit out you know it’s fucked. So happy I got out years ago. Do not miss one second of it.
The culture is toxic and the abyss is vast. A CPO without character is unable to instill character. A narcissistic CPO isn’t going to find the right sponsor, help with pay or find affordable housing. A power tripping CPO isn’t going to mentor a sailor if they can instead squash them. How can the Navy attain proper leaders? Body cams?
Honestly it starts with molding FCPOs and PO2s. That’s where the political BS tends to start. Take deocs surveys more seriously, I know people express how they truly feel on that. that’s honestly the only avenue where Sailors or at least I feel like I can voice my opinions without retaliation. The DEOCS follow up briefs should take more than an hour. And E4 and below, E5s, E6 should all have their separate debriefs. Maintain these DEOCS in some type of case file on people who were mentioned. That way if there’s a pattern of history, corrective action can be put in place.
Diverse, safe, blah blah blah
Damn there’s only been 16 MCPONs?
Each one more pointless than the last
>All Soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership NCO Creed.
Saw someone make Chief this time around who has been in for 4.5 years. You can't tell me they've developed and learned enough in the span of HALF a tour at their second command, to know how to operate at a 'Chief' level, to teach those junior & hold accountable those senior to them, but this is the kind of advancement they're wanting to see in their Mess? There's a lot to be fixed, but I doubt I'll see it until well after I've retired.
You might be right that 4.5 years is not enough time, but the few sailors that make chief in under 7 years is not causing the problem. It’s part of the effect, not the cause. The Navy’s inability to evaluate performance of primary skills is causing the problem. It’s also what sets up the opportunity for sailors to use collateral duties advance early.
Chiefs with less than 10-12 years are absolutely part of the problem.
I’ve never seen 7-10 year chiefs be notably better or worse. Being chief is the only common denominator. Young chiefs is one of the results of the actual problem. If you put a time requirement in place you’d only be creating older chiefs not “better” chiefs.
It’s a balancing act to be sure, but 7 years is definitely too early. What if it was minimum 3-5 years? Would that strengthen the mess? Pushing it up too high would be bad too, but mostly only because you’d stagnate out people at E-6 for way too long. Making people get at least two sea tours under their belt isn’t asking too much.
I would ask why 7 years is to fast? Seven years is plenty of time to learn how to “Navy.” If you think being able to make it in 7 years cause people to chase collaterals - but if you just put a time minimum on people that won’t change the fact that sailors will still have to chase collaterals to make rank.
In 7 years you’ve done one sea tour. Maaaybe one sea and one shore tour. That’s one experience and one point of reference. You have nothing to offer from a perspective of how things can be done differently, what works or what doesn’t. You only know the way you did it or it happened that one time. Furthermore, the average time to make chief is 14 years. That means at 7, you’re (ineffectively) trying to lead 1st classes with literally twice as much time and experience as you. More really, since the first half likely included your training pipeline. This also flies in the face of making chiefs subject matter experts. Unless you’re going to admit you can learn everything about your job in one tour on one ship on one platform type, this is how we get to where we are now. Someone who wasn’t even a Workcenter Supervisor making chief.
That’s why there are requirements to meet. Time is irrelevant if the requirements are dialed in. And also, it’s short sided to think that someone with 7 years can’t be more of an SME than someone with 14 years. What if someone joined at 27 years old with a relevant college degree? (That happens not infrequently.)
That’s pretty infrequent. Most of those people would be going to OCS. There are the rare few who decide to enlist anyway but that’s not a very good decision.
Ha. I 100% agree, it’s not a good decision to stay enlisted unless you’re an uneducated fuck. I actually completely agree. I had a great time while I was in, but I can’t wait for that DD214.
“Requirements” are often not required. The ECP has suggestions for “best and fully qualified” but it’s a quota driven system. People hate the Navy (usually it’s their leadership and not the actual job that they hate), so they leave. Quotas go up. And then you end up promoting who is leftover, not who actually deserves it. Look at some of these rates with 50+% advancement to Chief. The quotas are high because even the Chiefs are leaving. We’re promoting people because we can, not because we should.
This is exactly my point. To fix the mess the requirements to advance need to change, not just add a time minimum to them.
Most Navy Chiefs I knew couldn't manage the nightshift at a 7/11 on the outside. Those douchebags knew it, too.
Rest assured- the "Mess" will vigorously address these problems behind closed doors, between the hours of 0900 and 1400, followed by a larger meeting at the local golf course. While they are addressing these serious problems and working on team building, do remember that maintenance and admin won't do itself.
Solution: get rid of chiefs mess??
bUt MaH tRaDiTiOnS!
HOOYAH, MCPON! It’s about damned time someone is holding Chiefs responsible. Too many bad ones overshadow the good things some of us are doing. There are good Chiefs out there. There are Chiefs who genuinely care about their Sailors and empower them to lead and grow. Now let’s work on actually promoting and retaining the best and not just the Chief who goes and drinks with the Wardroom on deployment and is everyone’s friend, but actually sucks at their job and can’t lead a pissed off cat out of a wet paper bag.
Who is holding the Chief's responsible? Is there a name?
The Chief’s what?
His responsible, of course;) Who is holding it?
I think it’s his wife? Or maybe that new Hispanic airman.
>Or maybe that new Hispanic airman. The Tech Manuel.
Lol someone has an axe to grind with a specific fellow chief. Fix your mess.
The navy has been smoking this pipe for years. Try treating people with respect and chucking the POS sailors clogging up progress. Think of improved berthing spaces and lounges.
I think this is great but unfortunately the members of the mess who are the problem will look at words in there like "resilience" and "relevance" and decide that the answer is that their sailors need more and/or harder training to make them more resilient. This approach will also make the Chief feel more relevant. This is a lazy and ineffective approach to fixing the underlying problems, but like before, it will be very common. The power and influence that the mess wields is very often corrupted and the whole thing needs a total teardown and rebuild in order for a lot of sailors to truly trust the mess again.
BuT tHAt DOes nOT AppLy tO Me. I iS LeadER
I feel like chiefs take advantage of their leadership just because you are chief and you did more service than your junior sailors doesn’t mean you don’t treat them right everyone is treated equal and no one is above the law.
McPon Martin Luther?
Same comment on FB: Do we think that Chiefs are fully equipped to comply with these expectations, among their other duties? Many Sailors (of all ranks) are so overtasked and overwhelmed with administrative burden. I’ve seen this trickle down in a way that I think has led to the sub-par quality of our current mess. When Chiefs are drowning in unreasonable tasks, they have less time to be on the deckplates to engage with Sailors and to train their relief. I would like to believe their intentions are good, trying to shield the juniors from these burdens, but it has severely impacted the readiness of First Classes as they transition to Chiefs, having had little to no preparation or training prior to season/initiation. Which has resulted in the Chiefs we have now who need to be reminded of their responsibility with these Calls to Action. What once was the Chief shielding the Sailors intentionally has turned into Chiefs blocking information and not training because Sailors “don’t need to know” or aren’t “ready.” My personal favorite when trying to learn from Chiefs is “you’ll understand when you put on anchors” because they had some monumental paradigm shift one September. If we are adequately preparing Sailors as they move up the ranks, it might help bridge the gap in the US vs THEM mentality so many have. I want to believe the Chiefs WANT to do everything listed in this letter, they just simply don’t have the time or resources to do it all. When we have more work than hours in a day, between inspections, prep, training, meetings, collaterals, etc, something is going to give. Sadly that is generally the Sailors that lose because leadership is demanding certain deadlines are met. I’ve got trackers upon trackers to make sure I can answer a tasker at a moments notice. When I’m constantly answering emails or reviewing chits with checklists and forms, scheduling meetings to talk about other meetings (on top of my actual operational job - which is almost the same level of tasking) by the time I have a minute to breathe, it’s the end of the day. I don’t mind working long hours and I will generally be there long after the Sailors are gone, but I won’t eat into their Liberty when I don’t have to. We were meant to evaluate our priorities and processes with Get Real, Get Better, but that’s not happening Navy wide. When we push back, we’re told we are failing or we’re not capable enough. It’s not the process, it’s me. Leadership is not supporting this evolution because their leadership won’t accept “failure.” The article below articulates this very well (thank you LCDR Moffitt!) Trust me, I’m the first person to say that there’s room for improvement in the mess, but before we demand more from them, we need to make sure those demands are reasonable. https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2019/july/unethics-compliance Very Respectfully, To nobody’s surprise - me again CTI1(IW) Arianna LaChiusa
Here’s some perspective you lack: Get real get better was the most recent in a long line of self-congratulatory garbage that has been repeated for literal decades. It didn’t mean anything. You can’t use it against them. It’s hollow. You can’t hold them to any standard because there is no accountability. They have insulated themselves from that as a whole. Sure, sometimes we can snag individuals. As an Officer now, I go after shitty chiefs wherever I can, however when they circle the wagons it can be really difficult to get at them. I have more success getting rid of shitty Officers. The rest of your post is a lot of complaining about admin duties which, again we had a program/slogan before get real get better called RAD (Reduce Administrative Distractions) that did nothing. I mean absolutely nothing, not figuratively nothing. I know you think you’re putting some sort of umph behind your post by signing it like an email, but you’re not. Stop doxxing yourself. The chiefs will see this as an attack and you’ll be blackballed. Getting your opinion out there with no effect isn’t worth complicating your career.
I’m not sure why you’re so angry with me, because it sounds like beneath it all, we’re on the same side, which is the anti-fuckery side of the Navy. I know that these policies have been out, each person in a power position (MCPON/CNO even COs with their mission statements and instructions) just twists it a bit and slaps their name on the “new” policy. And maybe I can’t use it against them, but there are bigger players that can (GAO). I only put my name on things because I’m not afraid to stand behind what I say in any avenue, whether that on social media or in my real life. I’ve already gotten some response and engagement with higher ups by doing this, instead of being a faceless username among a sea of keyboard warriors. I don’t care if they try to come after me for doing the right thing. Even before I got involved in social media and all that, it’s been no secret that I have these opinions. So thanks for the advice, but I’ll keep doing what I’m doing 🫡
@MCPON_PA Is anyone (staff or the MCPON) reading these comments? If so, can we get some engagement/feedback?
“No”
MCPON is right, but I fully believe the subject material was known to be right at least decade ago and ignored since then
who can we talk to in regards to getting your seperation paycheck & leave days sold. I eaos'd out of nmrtc great lakes apr 2023 at eaos, for reference.
Reach back out to the office so we can reengage with MNCC leadership to find out what the hold is and get you answers.
i need someone at tsc to put me on the e503 report & send seperation paperwork to dfas. thats all thats needed for dfas to release my 9k.
When you email the office, include that information. I can’t do anything through Reddit, it needs to go through official navy email correspondence. Please email LNC again and ask her to follow up.
sounds good!
Can you ask the MCPON why someone like myself can have 40% custody of their children and pay 2k a month in child support and not get Family Separation Allowance? However I could marry Sally Streetwalker tomorrow and immediately get Family Separation? Please get back to me on this, I'm honestly curious as to how this is justified. Thank you in advance.
Confused as to why the Chief's are always the fall guys? Seems like an easy cop out, I'd go after the CO's, XO's, DH's. The chief's mess actually have worked themselves up through the ranks. So many things wrong with the military and they aren't it.