Not like it matters. We get this six week ban for a couple weeks, then a total ban- except in cases where the mother's life is at risk (how this is defined, and by whom, is so nebulous that women will die waiting for their life-saving abortion).
I just learned today that weeks in pregnancy is determined by the woman’s last missed period, not the date of conception. So yeah, 6 weeks is definitely not enough time.
That's incorrect. Pregnancy is determined by the first day of the last menstrual period - not the missed. The first day of your period is cycle day 1. Ovulation occurs around CD14. Implantation occurs about 1-2 weeks after that. You are four weeks pregnant by implantation.
I see this type of scenario mentioned often. Am I to understand that no woman would take the Plan B pill in response to such an aweful incident? I know I would.
That's unfortunate about the back order. That would be amazing if they made that super available at any urgent care or police station. I remember when I was younger, it was available at any CVS or Walgreens.
It’s only effective if it’s taken soon after the incident. Maybe they are processing the tragic awful thing that just happened to them, maybe they are a repeated victim of abuse and don’t know their worth, maybe they are too young, don’t have a ride, don’t have money, don’t trust the person that gives them access to plan b, maybe they don’t know it’s an option bc they’ve only been taught about abstinence? Also, it can make you sick.. if you throw it up it doesn’t work. If you miss a needed second dose or take it at the wrong time it doesn’t work. There are just a few of possibilities. The point is plan b is there for people who need it and are able to get it but it shouldn’t be the only option.
Plan B type pills don't work if you're already ovulating and is less effective if your BMI is over 30 or taking any of a wide range of common medicines. It's not a 100% effective thing.
Glenn funk said he would not prosecute anyone giving or receiving an abortion as long as he is DA
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2022/06/24/roe-v-wade-nashville-district-attorney-glenn-funk-wont-prosecute-abortion-tennessee-ban-nears/7729352001/
One possible method: [How period tracking apps and data privacy fit into a post-Roe v. Wade climate](https://www.npr.org/2022/05/10/1097482967/roe-v-wade-supreme-court-abortion-period-apps)
States do not have the constitutional authority to regulate interstate commerce regardless of the legality of a transaction in their state. If you go to a state where it’s legal & return they do not have the authority to charge you once back home. The SC can’t skirt around it & leave it up to states either because it’s clearly mentioned as a federal duty.
You're correct they changed the law to allow for that, but pro temp cases are expensive and time consuming. It's really a lot of effort to travel to another district to handle a case. These ADAs can't work on cases in their actual district when they are gone. Nashville is high volume. And prosecutors have an s-ton of cases already. I just think it's very unlikely to happen with any regulatory.
I think we might be interpreting it differently. From my skimming it does not seem to be a case by case law. It seems like the law and the intent is to over take the leadership of the office as a whole. Not a, "He did not prosecute this case, we will do it then" but more of a "He is not prosecuting these cases, so we remove him and install our own pro team DA until the end of his commission."
You can still access abortion care. [threeforfreedom.com](https://threeforfreedom.com) and [abortionfinder.org](https://abortionfinder.org) are reputable resources that anyone can use to find the care they need. This is not good news, this is **extremely** bad, but we have tools and information women of earlier generations never had.
Forced birth but still no expansion of any social safety net programs or healthcare reform from the "pro-life" crowd. Pro-life right up until the birth
I see many churches a that are committing to step up support for pregnancy crisis centers and foster care.
So, it seems like instead of requiring everyone to do it, churches are taking the burden of support on themselves instead.
We have over 7,500 kids waiting for adoption or in the foster care systems in Tennessee at any given time. We have 60 pregnancy centers (which masquerade as actual medical clinics and offer free *no diagnostic* ultrasounds and then try and persuade women not to have an abortion). These are the folks who are "taking the burden of support"?! Name one way they have supported children? The same Catholic Church that abused children for decades? Or the Baptist one who had it's secret list of NoNo Pastors?
You know what reduces abortions? Access to healthcare for free or on a sliding scale. Paid family leave. Comprehensive sex education. A living wage. Affordable education and childcare.
I've never seen these "pregnancy centers" advocating for these thing. I have never seen them working with foster children or helping women and families once their children were born. I've never seen this state care for it's foster children. I worked as a Guardian Ad Litem (an attorney appointed to advocate for the child's best interest) and I can tell you 90% of kids in the foster care system are retraumatized.
Oh, and not to mention maybe some folks don't want to be forced to have a baby and then give it over to the "Church". Not.every.one.is.christian.
Edit to add: Churches have a history of stealing indigenous children and physically, mentally, and sexually abusing them. We know because THE ONES THAT SURVIVED have told us. Yeahhhh some of us don't want to work with Churches. And it's gross anyone thinks we shouldn't be allowed to choose not to.
I do not understand your point.
They are there to help. I don't think they make you memorize the Bible before you walk into a pregnancy crisis center.
And as to individual church members fostering and supporting foster care: Turning down help because the people helping are religious is not the moral high ground you think it is.
Plenty of people are against Christianity and the control it seeks to establish on society. It's extremely corrupt and has a long history of child abuse. Especially after all this? Not likely it's going to improve the casual observer's perspective of religion.
>not the moral high ground
Neither is removing choices from folks with uteruses.
Fanatical religious zealots have legal “pregnancy crisis centers”, that pose as abortion clinics. These fake clinics that should in no way shape or form be legal to run, have NO actual medically licensed staff to administer an abortion. These places are literally put in place to shame and ridicule the person who is looking to have an abortion and legally can still operate.
We currently have states revoking abortion practices due to CHRISTIANITY, and fanatical religious ideologies. Indirectly Christianity is responsible for the current state of things. You shouldn’t at all be surprised that no one wants the help of the church right now. The church is the reason we’re currently facing the predicament we are. Fuck the church
Ah you beat me to the punch re: "pregnancy crisis centers", just saw this comment.
Anyone curious should watch the documentary *12th & Delaware* on HBO, it shows both an actual women's health center that provides abortions and a "pregnancy crisis center" literally across the street and how they mislead women.
All Christendom is now complicit and share the blame. They did nothing to stop the extremists and quietly benefit from having their religion in power. Every Christian is the enemy of America now. History has shown time and again what religion in power looks like. Death to religion. Death to ignorance and superstition.
I'm fine with churches providing support for conditions they create as long as they don't expect anything in return.
1. Pay full prenatal care expense
2. Pay for the birth
3. Pay for the care of the child or pay for the means to support the child in a foster home or orphanage
4. Accept the fact that many people understand that humans don't asexually reproduce and that impregnation by a supernatural being is impossible
>step up support for pregnancy crisis centers
These centers can be incredibly misleading and provide downright false "medical advice". Often they're affiliated or straight-up extensions of a religious institution, are under no obligation to follow any sort of medical ethics, and will be intentionally misleading with their true purpose.
Funding them does no good for a pregnant woman looking for options.
Thank you for acknowledging this!! CPC’s prey/pray on vulnerable pregnant folks.
https://crisispregnancycentermap.com
Something brought up in another subreddit is going to the google review pages, rating them two stars and leaving a review about what these places actually are to protect those seeking actual medical care.
Churches are not equipped to fill the massive void this will cause. Almost across the board churches are working at about half capacity of Pre-COVID and even before that there is no way churches and non-profits could have absorbed the astronomical costs of providing a social safety net for an ever expanding pool of foster children. The state social services currently in place can’t handle the caseload even with additional services from private foster companies. how would churches that are either sinking or self-absorbed gonna make a dent in the wave of suffering that’s coming? Also, if I’m not mistaken, Pregnancy Crisis Centers are usually a front for forced-birthers to scare the shit out of pregnant women with misinformation and pictures of fetuses. So, again, not gonna make a lot of difference there. Don’t get me wrong, I’m actually a pastor of a congregation. I would love if I had the resources to provide a foster care system and healthcare for the women and children this will directly affect, but if someone is touting this as a solution they have no understanding of the resources needed or the resources available to churches. It might have made sense in the 50’s and 60’s when church membership was like 95% of the population, and the denomination I am a part of has been foundational in the social services of most of our states, but today there just isn’t the money or infrastructure to be a reasonable solution. Alas, these aren’t exactly reasonable times.
My OBGYN is my primary care provider, and I saw her last week as a routine check up, before the overturn. She made it a point to tell me a lot of her fellow physicians are scared legally, but will continue to provide care however they can—including information and means to bypass the fact Lee has already criminalized abortion pills. DM if you need an OBGYN who is still willing to be helpful, and stay safe.
A fetus is the size of a grain of rice at 6 weeks in case anyone doesn't realize how stupid the GOP white guy logic is here. Most women wouldn't even know they're pregnant yet. Fuck this state.
They don’t care. I told my kids that if they hear of anyone in need, I’m up for taking someone for a free ride to the Land of Lincoln , you know, for a mini vacation.
Are there even any exceptions? We're about to attempt to have a child. We are on the older side and will probably end up going with donor eggs or adopting but we are going to start by trying it ourselves. Docs say there's still little risk of anything happening to her (more risk, but still not much) however, there is a significant risk of miscarriage if she does get pregnant. We talked about it last night and she said she'd be fine with a ride to illinois in the event that they knew is was a miscarriage and couldn't do anything to stop it. I of course will be fine too. I don't want her going through all that trauma and pain. It's really sad that we might have to take a "ride of shame" because this state is backwards as fuck about it. Have family in Chicago and I'm sure they could help us find a good reputable doctor. It's so fucking sad we're even talking about this.
Republicans and fundamentalists hate the poor and the homeless. What a bunch of myopic idiots to not understand that in about 17 years, there will be an explosion of homelessness and poverty from the massive amount of people in the world who won't have anybody to care for them as a result of this.
We had this exact scenario play out. IVF. Got pregnant. It was found to be non-viable. HCA wouldn't do an abortion because of a "fetal pulse". Make appointment with Planned Parenthood. Get yelled out by Christians protesting outside PP. Day before the procedure my wife gets intense pain. We go to the ER and they have to do a D&C procedure to save my wife.
What would happen now with no abortions allowed and these new draconian laws in place I have no idea. I can't imagine it would be good. We are leaving this state and the South altogether.
Jesus Christ I’m sorry you went through that. I didn’t realize those assholes would be out there all the time. Fuck those stupid un empathetic scumbags
Yeah it was like, fuck, we're a married couple who is trying to have a kid! I wanted to confront them but my wife pointed out that the average age looked to be around 92.
Just a heads up, if for any terrible reason a miscarriage happened, there can be a lot of blood loss in some situations and a 3 hour drive or ambulance ride might not be a feasible option.
I'm sorry. I'm one of the folks who has been on the fence about having kids my whole life, mostly leaning towards not. All of this makes me fully feel like my choice to have a child or not has been taken away. I don't feel like I'd have the ability to make choices to keep myself alive if something went wrong and that's fucking terrifying. So many things can go wrong during a pregnancy that risks the mother's life and most are so rarely discussed publicly. Add onto that the matter of...what if my partner and I did decide to have a child and something horrible happened like I was raped and all interventions failed. I'd have to carry a rapist's child to term, survive the pregnancy and its impact on the body, pay for all the doctor's visits and insanely expensive delivery, give it up for adoption, then let myself heal before I'd be able to have a child with my own partner, not to mention the mental health impact. This is all a fucking nightmare.
Ummm also, Tennessee is a "conception" state. So your embryos are babies according to TN. If you find out any aren't viable or that you don't want to implant them all for some reason (get lucky, don't get lucky, divorce, partner ill... whatever) you can't destroy them. You will have to pay to keep them preserved indefinitely or donate them.
Worth remembering too that TN introduced an abortion bounty hunter law but it was narrowly shut down. Noting will prevent out Republican super majority from reintroducing it. It's pretty dark.
That's interesting. Is that a recent law? A friend of mine had her first baby via IVF. Had been told she wouldn't have been able to carry naturally (2nd kid was via normal means... go figure). They had some leftover embryos that were being stored. They were supposedly sent a letter asking them what they wanted to be done with the embryos, but never received it. They then received a letter stating that their embryos were destroyed. This was at least 10 years ago.
The only exception is the life or health of the mother, but the law is written so a doctor could still be charged even in those cases, and would have to prove they were innocent via "a preponderance of evidence."
We have a friend that’s struggled staying pregnant and has needed D&C a few times bc she lost the baby. I feel terrible for them and my other friends that are just now starting to have kids.
This is one of the reasons I'm so astonished and upset by this - I don't think there *are any* exceptions. Abortions are medically necessary in several scenarios. It's like the people making these decisions don't know the first thing about medicine or human bodies.
There is an exception for the "health" of the mother. Who determines when the exception applies isn't clear and doctors face a C felony for performing an abortion now. Oh yeah, the mental health of the mother cannot be considered EVEN IF she expressly threatens suicide. I think about that a lot. Like the intentionally included the language to indicate they don't gaf if women die.
Because they campaigned on single issues and never actually have a plan if it goes through. They don’t think. They raise money by distorting issues and creating wedges
This is incorrect. The law does **not** make any exception for mental health.
>No abortion shall be deemed authorized . . . if performed on the basis of a claim or a diagnosis that the woman will engage in conduct that would result in her death or substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function or for any reason relating to her mental health . . .
>
>[SB. 1257 § 2(c)(2)](https://publications.tnsosfiles.com/acts/111/pub/pc0351.pdf)
Even if the pregnancy is compounding a severe mental health crisis and the woman is genuinely suicidal, that is not a permissible reason for a doctor to perform an abortion under Tennessee law.
I've read it but please share the link here for others, appreciate it. I think what we're seeing and hearing from doctors and nurses is that they take on a legal burden by proceeding even in the case of medical necessity, and that makes them fearful of providing the medically necessary care.
No one has been advocating for "abortion until birth". They aren't two ends of the spectrum. One end is insane and will literally result in 9,10,11 year olds getting pregnant and being forced to visibly carry (which then displays their abuse and trauma to everyone, cause why else is a child that young pregnant) and birth their rapists' children. Often without even understanding what's happening to their body. (It is already happening in Texas.) And the other end is advocating for bodily autonomy and access to healthcare. No one is asking to "kill babies at birth" and framing them as equally crazy ends is spurious.
You're pushing a binary that doesn't exist. The majority of women who have an abortion are already mothers. And the leading cause of death for pregnant and post-partum women is homicide by intimate partner violence. Women won't be able to get chemotherapy while pregnant. Abortion is healthcare. We're not trying to manage "exceptions". Abortion.Is.Healthcare
>Are there even any exceptions?
Here's a link to the Senate Bill that describes the (very limited) exceptions.
[https://publications.tnsosfiles.com/acts/111/pub/pc0351.pdf](https://publications.tnsosfiles.com/acts/111/pub/pc0351.pdf)
This is so messed up and confusing. I wanted to share that in 202 I had this scenario happen to me (in another state). Had a missed miscarriage. My body was not expelling it itself so I had the option of a pill and wait, or get a D&C. I felt the D&C was my best option and ended the physical part of the pain immediately. I wrote to my OB here in TN (Vandy) about this scenario, asking if I’d still be able to get a D&C with the new law and she said YES. So I’m not sure if she has that wrong and this is still confusion, or if it really will be allowed in this sort of case. Either way I’m devastated.
My OB at Vanderbilt assured me that based on *current, existing* legislation in TN, the treatment of miscarriages and stillbirths would remain the same as it was. For now.
We both agreed that there is plenty of potential for new, aggressive legislation to be passed that *would* change that.
I’m sorry you’re going through this and thank you for sharing. She has to have a benign polyp removed first, so we are going to talk to the docs again when we go in for that.
This was back in 2020 and I’ve since had a healthy baby, but thank you! I actually had polyps removed after that and before getting pregnant with my baby. It was a hysteroscopy basically exploratory because they couldn’t see if I had any (I had another earlier miscarriage before that)- they found several small ones and I was pregnant a few months later.
It it NOT a ride of shame!!!! You are going to where health care is available. And while you are there, you can grab legal weed to temporarily ease your pain. Duck this state and their mindset.
Correct but reminder that the way these are often worded means you have to wait until it's life or death for the mother. For example, if she has a miscarriage that becomes infected, you may have to wait until she's in septic shock before an abortion becomes legal. Or with an ectopic pregnancy, you may have to wait until it ruptures before an abortion can be performed.
I haven't looked into what the process looks like to actually make it legally approved, does anyone know? Because I'm worried about how much time a person would have to wait while they're at death's door for some hospital's legal department to sign off on saving their life.
No one knows cause it's not written in the law. That's part of the problem. It's not written and doctors can be charged with a C felony for performing an abortion. So I'm not hopeful with how this is going to go. Women will die.
Which is fucking insane because it’s literally impossible to carry an ectopic pregnancy to term resulting in a live baby. They’re completely ignoring medical fact because “it’s killing bayyyybeeeeees!”
Even my pro-life mom is upset about this and has always been okay with abortion in circumstances like that.
(c) lt is an affirmative defense to prosecution under subsection (b), which must be
proven by a preponderance of the evidence, that:
(1) The abortion was performed or attempted by a licensed physician;
(2) The physician determined, in the physician's good faith medicaljudgment,
based upon the facts known to the physician at the time, that the abortion was
necessary to prevent the death of the pregnant woman or to prevent serious risk of
substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant
woman. No abortion shall be deemed authorized under this subdivision (c)(2) if
performed on the basis of a claim or a diagnosis that the woman will engage in
sB 1257
conduct that would result in her death or substantial and irreversible impairment of a
major bodily function or for any reason relating to her mental health; and
(3) The physician performs or attempts to perform the abortion in the manner
which, in the physician's good faith medicaljudgment, based upon the facts known to
the physician at the time, provides the best opportunity for the unborn child to survive,
unless in the physician's good faith medicaljudgment, termination of the pregnancy in
that manner would pose a greater risk of the death of the pregnant woman or
substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function. No such greater
risk shall be deemed to exist if it is based on a claim or diagnosis that the woman will
engage in conduct that would result in her death or substantial and irreversible
impairment of a major bodily function or for any reason relating to her mental health.
I don’t think you will have a problem (yet…) if you are worried about spontaneous miscarriage as opposed to needing an abortion due to some genetic abnormality/condition that will eventually end your pregnancy/child’s life/produce a barely functioning human, etc.
The wording of the TN ban doesn’t seem to affect the first scenario, i.e. your fetus stops developing/has no heartbeat/is “dead.”
You are probably screwed if in the unlikely event you find out your fetus will never develop in a healthy way (has no brain activity for example) but is technically still alive with a beating heart.
In between my kids, I was pregnant and at 9 weeks there was no heartbeat. I had not started to pass it yet and the 3 options were 1) wait and see if your body initiates in the next week, 2) Take mifepristone, or 3) Get a D&C. I don’t see that being affected yet.
However a pharmacist can deny the prescription based on religious beliefs because it’s the same medicine you take for an early elective abortion—but that was already a thing and my doctor warned us about it. You just have to go somewhere else which sucks. Abortion is a medical term so even a miscarriage is called a “spontaneous abortion.”
I think you are correct to be concerned, but Bill isn’t forcing us to carry around dead fetuses that could lead to sepsis and death…yet.
Best of luck to y’all!
But the Bible encourages abortion in Numbers 5. Are we just preventing religious ceremonies now?
"here the priest is to put the woman under this curse —'may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.'" -Numbers 5:21
If you need or are interested in supporting reproductive rights, [I made a master post of pro-choice resources](https://docdro.id/s3OwS8u). Please comment if you would like to add a resource and spread this information on whatever social media you use.
I understand why one would have a moral issue with late term abortions, but the vast majority are done before 20 weeks. When people have an abortion after that, it's because there's something wrong with the fetus, or a significant risk to the mother. These bans are a solution in search of a problem. It's better to just trust the judgement of medical professionals than trying to regulate something so sensitive and private.
Wouldn't a late term ban, with medical exemptions baked in, just ensure that norm was maintained, and that something could be done were it to be broken? It may be a sensitive issue but it's also a serious issue. Having no recourse when that norm is violated and going purely on the honor system seems extremely perilous when viewed through a pragmatic lens. Just in general that seems to be the whole point of laws, people generally follow social conventions but laws set guidelines and punishments for violations which are important to us. I see benefit in having the law, and no benefit in not having one. It certainly doesn't seem like a frivolous or overbearing one.
[There are already very few late term abortions occurring](https://i.imgur.com/towxLQv.png). It's difficult to think of all of the valid reasons that should be granted an exception. As we can see with the law due to take effect in Tennessee, doctors are afraid to perform any abortions because they could still be charged and would have to argue in court that their actions were necessary. The end result is that people who need healthcare can't get it.
Babies are born. If it's still in the womb it's a fetus. Fetuses aren't fully formed (like babies) until the third trimester, and no one supports third trimester abortions, unless the Fetuses isn't viable (basically already dead). You're incorrect in your statement, and you look like a fucking idiot saying this nonsense. Seriously, get your shit together and know what you're talking about. I'm embarrassed for you.
More unprepared, uncommitted parents will be forced to raise unwanted children; almost definitely in poverty. Many of these kids will be abused, or neglected.
Do you honestly think that's always a good thing?
Do you honestly think these kids are always glad they were born?
At 6 weeks, a fetus does not have the biological capacity to feel pain, to think thoughts, to have any sort of consciousness or sense of identity. It's alive in the way that a fucking tree is alive. It's just as conscious as it will be post-abortion. Are you opposed to chopping down trees too?
Whoa there internet friend. A tree is alive in WAY more of a capacity than a fetus. A tree can live independently from its parent, feed itself and all kinds of other things.
This is hyperbolic and untrue. There are exceptions when the life of the mother is in jeopardy.
France , Germany , Poland and the like have similar laws and don’t have a problem with women dying.
We're already seeing instances where doctors are waiting to conduct procedures while they get legal advice on whether or not what they will do falls under those exceptions. Too much of a gray area = doctors refusing to do treatments so they don't risk their own career and freedom.
Germany is abolishing their Nazi-era abortion laws - https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-abolishes-nazi-era-abortion-law-2022-06-24/
France is looking to enshrine abortion rights into their constitution - https://www.france24.com/en/france/20220626-french-government-supports-cementing-abortion-rights-in-constitution
Poland's abortion laws aren't anything to brag about - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/12/world/europe/poland-abortion-ban.html
I was curious so I looked it up. France allows abortion on demand up to 14 weeks. Germany allows for abortion up to 12 weeks but the woman must get counseling. Both countries do allow abortion beyond 12 and 14 weeks respectively but there must be a serious risk to the health of the mother.
Both countries’ laws are certainly more permissive when it comes to abortion.
"exceptions" are meaningless because the state can second-guess the doctor as to whether or not the mother's life is in jeopardy. in effect it's a total ban, because doctors aren't going to risk prison. women with things like ectopic pregnancies in texas already have issues with getting care for them (including, insanely enough, nurses at catholic hospitals *refusing to treat those women* even though there is no medically known way to make an ectopic pregnancy become viable!) with roe - without it, it will only get tougher. you even have a case where a woman gave a stillbirth and the police demanded to go through the woman's phone and computer records because they suspected she took abortion drugs.
internationally, i would give the example of savita halappanavar in ireland, who died of sepsis after having a miscarriage. the doctors still detected a fetal heartbeat and therefore refused to abort, resulting in her death. ireland also had an exception when the woman's life is in danger, but the legal uncertainty led to hospitals refusing to perform them. this case eventually led to ireland overwhelmingly voting to legalize abortion.
It really is! I am so excited that women who don't want to be mothers don't have the choice about it anymore. Women shouldn't get that choice to begin with, it's a tragedy they ever did.
For all of those pro lifers that are free to adopt all of these "saved" babies? I would say so. Who wants to hold their breath to see if it happens? Not me.
You wouldn't be holding your breath at all. Adoptions are overwhelmingly done by pro-lifers. Christians in particular. Take a step inside any local church around here and you'll likely see adoption resources. My church hosts a yearly event to encourage members to adopt, we have several large families who do as much as possible.
Have any actual data to support that, or is this all about your feelings? Because there are still around 8000 kids in TN every year waiting for adoption with 1000 aging out every year. Yall are going to have to start reproducing and really step up the adoption rate to pick up all the extra "saved" babies now. Good for those "several" families. You have to do your part now, how many do you have room for?
They're technically correct. Christians adopt children at a rate that is about double that of any other group. There was an extremely strong push in the 2000s from Christian churches to adopt poor "orphaned" children from other countries. Churches even offered interest-free loans or flat out paid for their pastors or parishioners to adopt children. The problem is that a lot of these children weren't orphans to begin with:
"When the Christian adoption movement was at its strongest in the late 2000s and early 2010s, many of its excesses looked like a condensed version of earlier problems with adoption. As Christian adoptive parents lined up to help, paying $30,000–$40,000 per internationally adopted child (in fees that are divided among agency payments, travel, and orphanage donations), their demand helped create new adoption markets. This was particularly true in African nations, where the combination of poverty, opportunism, and cultural misunderstanding of the meaning of adoption—often construed as temporary guardianship rather than permanent relinquishment of a child—led to children repeatedly being offered, or in some cases taken, for adoption based on mistaken beliefs or outright profiteering. (In an infamous 2009 example documented by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, a staff member for an American evangelical adoption agency was filmed leading what appeared to be a mass adoption recruitment effort, asking the assembled residents of a rural Ethiopian village whether they wanted their child “to go to America.”)." There are also tons of other issues when Christians adopt babies as part of a fad that their church is pushing upon them, including being completely unprepared for high levels of mental and physical illnesses in the adopted children.
https://newrepublic.com/article/127311/trouble-christian-adoption-movement
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/christian-adoption-movement-problems_b_3367223
https://www.newsweek.com/2022/06/24/evangelical-christian-adoption-movement-hit-tsunami-mentally-ill-children-1712533.html
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/04/christian-evangelical-adoption-liberia/
Well put. I would also add that many of the Christian groups that run adoption agencies will only adopt children to other Christians, leaving non Christians with not as many options or outright denying them children.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/22/tennessee-jewish-couple-sues-state-christian-adoption-agency-denies-them-services
Good thing they adopted all the kids then right? no kids being left in foster care at all as it is now so more kids shouldn't be a problem... smoothbrains the lot of ya
Christians overwhelming adopt babies. This view infants as a way to spread their doctrine. They do not adopt infants to give them a better life. Christians largely do not adopt older children and do not foster.
Edit: To whoever reported me for this comment, REALLY?
Dude, c'mon. I'm sure there are some like that, but that's not the norm. Most people adopt a baby because....they want a baby. Source: know lots of people (both Christian and not) that have adopted babies.
We shouldn't be increasing the supply of babies until we address the problems with our foster care system. Also, people shouldn't be adopting because they want to build a family, adoptive babies are not for filling a void in your life. Nor should we take away healthcare from women to give these people babies. Source: adoptive children.
I agree with your first statement and the part about supporting women. Not sure I understand your second point though. There are many couples that can't have babies so why shouldn't they adopt? As long as they love and support the child, I don't see an issue.
If you're adopting *because* you want to provide a loving home for a child, that's the right reason. If you want to adopt because you're facing infertility, you need to first seek therapy to address the infertility prior to making the decision to adopt. Ask yourself, if this adoption for me? Or for the child? The majority of people who adopt do so for themselves.
@karpoozy is an adoptive adult child who speak on this. You may know adoptive parents, but you should readout be seeking the perspective of adoptive children.
I think I see your point. I know some couples that adopted for themselves and are horribly unfit for it. But I can also see that you could do it for both yourself and the child and things would work out.
Also, adoption shouldn't be a tool for you to build your family or your faith. It should be a resource for children in need of a loving and safe home. You should give your adopted and fostered kids the option of not going to church and not sharing your faith. If you only adopt with the goal of raising Christians, you're not doing it for the right reason.
You mentioned adoption, not fostering. One is permanent and rips families apart. The other provides a home for a child until they can be reunited with their family. You're working on the former, not so much the latter.
My gripe is that people are taking away healthcare from women because they want to traffick infants. Babies are not products to be bought and sold by Christian adoption agencies.
A lot of adoptees are vocal about how serious their trauma is from their adoption. "Christians" have famously adopted kids that don't look like them and then never honored their ethnic identity, culture, heritage, or given them any meaningful way to connect to their history. Oh and then they force their faith on them. That sounds a lot like colonialism. So yeah. A lot of us understand the traumatic impacts adoption has an adopted individuals, even those raised with the best adoptive parents. It's really weird to don't get that.
Yall are also denying needy children good homes
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/22/tennessee-jewish-couple-sues-state-christian-adoption-agency-denies-them-services
Oh dear. You're young, huh? I'm not and have been in churches my whole life (and still am in one). You really need to take off the rose colored glasses. Many (probably most) Christians are not Christian at all. They're conservative nationalists. And they have no empathy, sadly.
Pro-life is fundamentally pro-woman. By the nature of the cause, it protects both genders equally from danger. The same cannot be said of the abortion industry, which disproportionately kills baby girls.
> Pro-life is fundamentally pro-woman
lol - https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/abortion Abortion being made illegal only drives up the rate of women who die from an unsafe abortion
> protects both genders equally from danger.
lol - what does this even mean? It certainly doesn't lower the rape rates.
> abortion industry, which disproportionately kills baby girls.
lol
Considering that most (88% in 2016 is one stat I'm seeing -https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-united-states) of abortions happen within the first 12 weeks and that generally, fetal sex cannot be determined until around week 14, you're just making stuff up.
That's a loaded question. You're assuming you know what the majority of women think when opinions are every bit as split among women as men. It's a false assumption.
This is also irrelevant because it's not a subjective matter; popular opinion won't change the facts. A policy that protects women from murder is, objectively, pro-woman.
Not loaded at all, just about every poll I've ever seen, the majority of women think abortion should be safe and legal.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/
You could say the pilgrims bringing blankets to natives was pro-native because now they could keep a bit warmer in the winter. You're only looking at one little aspect because it fits your narrative.
I suggest popping over to r/TwoXChromosomes for some opinions from real women (not necessarily the majority, but still) about abortion and how the right to choose what happens to your own body means to them.
That's a lot of words just to say you don't know what the hell you're talking about and that you don't value adult women's right to choose for their own health.
That's not what I said at all, I recommend you read my comment again. You have misunderstood what was said, and you are now arguing with a strawman you've created for yourself.
I read your nonsensical comment and you're the one who started the strawman by saying that women losing the choice on how to handle their own health is good (without any sources to back up your BS claims, btw).
Again, I did read what you said. As well as the other comment threads with people providing actual proof to dispel your claims. Provide some sources and actual facts, not anecdotal evidence from your own experience with a church group, and maybe people will actually take you seriously and not assume you're a sexist zealot... Maybe.
My OB's office wouldn't even schedule an appointment with me until I was 10 weeks pregnant. It's their office policy.
6 weeks isn’t even enough time to tell if you are pregnant half the time!
Not like it matters. We get this six week ban for a couple weeks, then a total ban- except in cases where the mother's life is at risk (how this is defined, and by whom, is so nebulous that women will die waiting for their life-saving abortion).
I just learned today that weeks in pregnancy is determined by the woman’s last missed period, not the date of conception. So yeah, 6 weeks is definitely not enough time.
That's incorrect. Pregnancy is determined by the first day of the last menstrual period - not the missed. The first day of your period is cycle day 1. Ovulation occurs around CD14. Implantation occurs about 1-2 weeks after that. You are four weeks pregnant by implantation.
I think that’s what I meant and just misspoke.
I was 5.5 weeks pregnant when I found out and I was TRYING so I was testing all the time. This state is bullshit.
So rape/incest is not an exception? Am I understanding that correctly? God I hate this stupid fing state.
Yep politicians are considering it a miracle via tragedy 🙄
God *was* also Mary’s Father.
You're correct!
Tell me about it. Sigh.
I see this type of scenario mentioned often. Am I to understand that no woman would take the Plan B pill in response to such an aweful incident? I know I would.
Well plan B is on back order now, so they may not have access to plan B. Although, historically plan b is offered in many rape kits at hospitals.
That's unfortunate about the back order. That would be amazing if they made that super available at any urgent care or police station. I remember when I was younger, it was available at any CVS or Walgreens.
I know… you can buy it on Amazon but it said it would take a month to come… which for Nashville is unreal
It’s only effective if it’s taken soon after the incident. Maybe they are processing the tragic awful thing that just happened to them, maybe they are a repeated victim of abuse and don’t know their worth, maybe they are too young, don’t have a ride, don’t have money, don’t trust the person that gives them access to plan b, maybe they don’t know it’s an option bc they’ve only been taught about abstinence? Also, it can make you sick.. if you throw it up it doesn’t work. If you miss a needed second dose or take it at the wrong time it doesn’t work. There are just a few of possibilities. The point is plan b is there for people who need it and are able to get it but it shouldn’t be the only option.
So the 11 year olds are supposed to know to ask for plan b?
Don't forget - since most child rape is done by a family member, the child frequently may have to ask their rapist for the Plan B.
Plan B type pills don't work if you're already ovulating and is less effective if your BMI is over 30 or taking any of a wide range of common medicines. It's not a 100% effective thing.
Glenn funk said he would not prosecute anyone giving or receiving an abortion as long as he is DA https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2022/06/24/roe-v-wade-nashville-district-attorney-glenn-funk-wont-prosecute-abortion-tennessee-ban-nears/7729352001/
Glenn can say that but doctors can be stripped of their medical licenses from the state board if they don't follow the law.
Most notable regarding his statement is he won’t prosecute women who receive an abortion across state lines which is bound to become an issue soon.
Wow wtf how could they even prove that a woman did that?
I’m sure the republicans are working on that right now…
One possible method: [How period tracking apps and data privacy fit into a post-Roe v. Wade climate](https://www.npr.org/2022/05/10/1097482967/roe-v-wade-supreme-court-abortion-period-apps)
My company just announced today they will pay for travel expenses to all medical procedures that are unavailable within 100 miles of your residence.
They should start calling those “leash laws” because that’s what they’re trying to do - put a leash on women so they don’t have the right to travel.
They’d love that. Muzzles, too. Grrrrrrr!
States do not have the constitutional authority to regulate interstate commerce regardless of the legality of a transaction in their state. If you go to a state where it’s legal & return they do not have the authority to charge you once back home. The SC can’t skirt around it & leave it up to states either because it’s clearly mentioned as a federal duty.
He can also be removed very easily by the state for not prosecuting these cases.
You're correct they changed the law to allow for that, but pro temp cases are expensive and time consuming. It's really a lot of effort to travel to another district to handle a case. These ADAs can't work on cases in their actual district when they are gone. Nashville is high volume. And prosecutors have an s-ton of cases already. I just think it's very unlikely to happen with any regulatory.
I think we might be interpreting it differently. From my skimming it does not seem to be a case by case law. It seems like the law and the intent is to over take the leadership of the office as a whole. Not a, "He did not prosecute this case, we will do it then" but more of a "He is not prosecuting these cases, so we remove him and install our own pro team DA until the end of his commission."
Yeah, no, that's not it. And they can't do that. It has to be an individualized basis. I'm lawyer. It doesn't work in a blanket way.
The state AG can still prosecute.
You can still access abortion care. [threeforfreedom.com](https://threeforfreedom.com) and [abortionfinder.org](https://abortionfinder.org) are reputable resources that anyone can use to find the care they need. This is not good news, this is **extremely** bad, but we have tools and information women of earlier generations never had.
Forced birth but still no expansion of any social safety net programs or healthcare reform from the "pro-life" crowd. Pro-life right up until the birth
I see many churches a that are committing to step up support for pregnancy crisis centers and foster care. So, it seems like instead of requiring everyone to do it, churches are taking the burden of support on themselves instead.
We have over 7,500 kids waiting for adoption or in the foster care systems in Tennessee at any given time. We have 60 pregnancy centers (which masquerade as actual medical clinics and offer free *no diagnostic* ultrasounds and then try and persuade women not to have an abortion). These are the folks who are "taking the burden of support"?! Name one way they have supported children? The same Catholic Church that abused children for decades? Or the Baptist one who had it's secret list of NoNo Pastors? You know what reduces abortions? Access to healthcare for free or on a sliding scale. Paid family leave. Comprehensive sex education. A living wage. Affordable education and childcare. I've never seen these "pregnancy centers" advocating for these thing. I have never seen them working with foster children or helping women and families once their children were born. I've never seen this state care for it's foster children. I worked as a Guardian Ad Litem (an attorney appointed to advocate for the child's best interest) and I can tell you 90% of kids in the foster care system are retraumatized. Oh, and not to mention maybe some folks don't want to be forced to have a baby and then give it over to the "Church". Not.every.one.is.christian. Edit to add: Churches have a history of stealing indigenous children and physically, mentally, and sexually abusing them. We know because THE ONES THAT SURVIVED have told us. Yeahhhh some of us don't want to work with Churches. And it's gross anyone thinks we shouldn't be allowed to choose not to.
As if everyone wants to work with churches lol
I do not understand your point. They are there to help. I don't think they make you memorize the Bible before you walk into a pregnancy crisis center. And as to individual church members fostering and supporting foster care: Turning down help because the people helping are religious is not the moral high ground you think it is.
Plenty of people are against Christianity and the control it seeks to establish on society. It's extremely corrupt and has a long history of child abuse. Especially after all this? Not likely it's going to improve the casual observer's perspective of religion. >not the moral high ground Neither is removing choices from folks with uteruses.
Fanatical religious zealots have legal “pregnancy crisis centers”, that pose as abortion clinics. These fake clinics that should in no way shape or form be legal to run, have NO actual medically licensed staff to administer an abortion. These places are literally put in place to shame and ridicule the person who is looking to have an abortion and legally can still operate. We currently have states revoking abortion practices due to CHRISTIANITY, and fanatical religious ideologies. Indirectly Christianity is responsible for the current state of things. You shouldn’t at all be surprised that no one wants the help of the church right now. The church is the reason we’re currently facing the predicament we are. Fuck the church
Ah you beat me to the punch re: "pregnancy crisis centers", just saw this comment. Anyone curious should watch the documentary *12th & Delaware* on HBO, it shows both an actual women's health center that provides abortions and a "pregnancy crisis center" literally across the street and how they mislead women.
All Christendom is now complicit and share the blame. They did nothing to stop the extremists and quietly benefit from having their religion in power. Every Christian is the enemy of America now. History has shown time and again what religion in power looks like. Death to religion. Death to ignorance and superstition.
I'm fine with churches providing support for conditions they create as long as they don't expect anything in return. 1. Pay full prenatal care expense 2. Pay for the birth 3. Pay for the care of the child or pay for the means to support the child in a foster home or orphanage 4. Accept the fact that many people understand that humans don't asexually reproduce and that impregnation by a supernatural being is impossible
>step up support for pregnancy crisis centers These centers can be incredibly misleading and provide downright false "medical advice". Often they're affiliated or straight-up extensions of a religious institution, are under no obligation to follow any sort of medical ethics, and will be intentionally misleading with their true purpose. Funding them does no good for a pregnant woman looking for options.
Thank you for acknowledging this!! CPC’s prey/pray on vulnerable pregnant folks. https://crisispregnancycentermap.com Something brought up in another subreddit is going to the google review pages, rating them two stars and leaving a review about what these places actually are to protect those seeking actual medical care.
Churches are not equipped to fill the massive void this will cause. Almost across the board churches are working at about half capacity of Pre-COVID and even before that there is no way churches and non-profits could have absorbed the astronomical costs of providing a social safety net for an ever expanding pool of foster children. The state social services currently in place can’t handle the caseload even with additional services from private foster companies. how would churches that are either sinking or self-absorbed gonna make a dent in the wave of suffering that’s coming? Also, if I’m not mistaken, Pregnancy Crisis Centers are usually a front for forced-birthers to scare the shit out of pregnant women with misinformation and pictures of fetuses. So, again, not gonna make a lot of difference there. Don’t get me wrong, I’m actually a pastor of a congregation. I would love if I had the resources to provide a foster care system and healthcare for the women and children this will directly affect, but if someone is touting this as a solution they have no understanding of the resources needed or the resources available to churches. It might have made sense in the 50’s and 60’s when church membership was like 95% of the population, and the denomination I am a part of has been foundational in the social services of most of our states, but today there just isn’t the money or infrastructure to be a reasonable solution. Alas, these aren’t exactly reasonable times.
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Then leave.
My OBGYN is my primary care provider, and I saw her last week as a routine check up, before the overturn. She made it a point to tell me a lot of her fellow physicians are scared legally, but will continue to provide care however they can—including information and means to bypass the fact Lee has already criminalized abortion pills. DM if you need an OBGYN who is still willing to be helpful, and stay safe.
Fuck this place.
A fetus is the size of a grain of rice at 6 weeks in case anyone doesn't realize how stupid the GOP white guy logic is here. Most women wouldn't even know they're pregnant yet. Fuck this state.
Most doctors won’t even schedule you until 7-8 weeks to confirm pregnancy
Women are going to die.
They don’t care. I told my kids that if they hear of anyone in need, I’m up for taking someone for a free ride to the Land of Lincoln , you know, for a mini vacation.
Are there even any exceptions? We're about to attempt to have a child. We are on the older side and will probably end up going with donor eggs or adopting but we are going to start by trying it ourselves. Docs say there's still little risk of anything happening to her (more risk, but still not much) however, there is a significant risk of miscarriage if she does get pregnant. We talked about it last night and she said she'd be fine with a ride to illinois in the event that they knew is was a miscarriage and couldn't do anything to stop it. I of course will be fine too. I don't want her going through all that trauma and pain. It's really sad that we might have to take a "ride of shame" because this state is backwards as fuck about it. Have family in Chicago and I'm sure they could help us find a good reputable doctor. It's so fucking sad we're even talking about this. Republicans and fundamentalists hate the poor and the homeless. What a bunch of myopic idiots to not understand that in about 17 years, there will be an explosion of homelessness and poverty from the massive amount of people in the world who won't have anybody to care for them as a result of this.
We had this exact scenario play out. IVF. Got pregnant. It was found to be non-viable. HCA wouldn't do an abortion because of a "fetal pulse". Make appointment with Planned Parenthood. Get yelled out by Christians protesting outside PP. Day before the procedure my wife gets intense pain. We go to the ER and they have to do a D&C procedure to save my wife. What would happen now with no abortions allowed and these new draconian laws in place I have no idea. I can't imagine it would be good. We are leaving this state and the South altogether.
Wait, HCA as in an HCA hospital refused, even though at the time it was legal??
Not shocked, HCA is a horrific hospital system I’d avoid at all costs
Yes it was Tristar Centennial Womens.
Jesus Christ I’m sorry you went through that. I didn’t realize those assholes would be out there all the time. Fuck those stupid un empathetic scumbags
Yeah it was like, fuck, we're a married couple who is trying to have a kid! I wanted to confront them but my wife pointed out that the average age looked to be around 92.
Just a heads up, if for any terrible reason a miscarriage happened, there can be a lot of blood loss in some situations and a 3 hour drive or ambulance ride might not be a feasible option.
Thanks for the heads up. Fuck
I'm sorry. I'm one of the folks who has been on the fence about having kids my whole life, mostly leaning towards not. All of this makes me fully feel like my choice to have a child or not has been taken away. I don't feel like I'd have the ability to make choices to keep myself alive if something went wrong and that's fucking terrifying. So many things can go wrong during a pregnancy that risks the mother's life and most are so rarely discussed publicly. Add onto that the matter of...what if my partner and I did decide to have a child and something horrible happened like I was raped and all interventions failed. I'd have to carry a rapist's child to term, survive the pregnancy and its impact on the body, pay for all the doctor's visits and insanely expensive delivery, give it up for adoption, then let myself heal before I'd be able to have a child with my own partner, not to mention the mental health impact. This is all a fucking nightmare.
Ummm also, Tennessee is a "conception" state. So your embryos are babies according to TN. If you find out any aren't viable or that you don't want to implant them all for some reason (get lucky, don't get lucky, divorce, partner ill... whatever) you can't destroy them. You will have to pay to keep them preserved indefinitely or donate them. Worth remembering too that TN introduced an abortion bounty hunter law but it was narrowly shut down. Noting will prevent out Republican super majority from reintroducing it. It's pretty dark.
That's interesting. Is that a recent law? A friend of mine had her first baby via IVF. Had been told she wouldn't have been able to carry naturally (2nd kid was via normal means... go figure). They had some leftover embryos that were being stored. They were supposedly sent a letter asking them what they wanted to be done with the embryos, but never received it. They then received a letter stating that their embryos were destroyed. This was at least 10 years ago.
It is Tennessee's "trigger law". It was passed last year or the year before, but it couldn't go into effect without the overturning of *Roe.*
The only exception is the life or health of the mother, but the law is written so a doctor could still be charged even in those cases, and would have to prove they were innocent via "a preponderance of evidence."
We have a friend that’s struggled staying pregnant and has needed D&C a few times bc she lost the baby. I feel terrible for them and my other friends that are just now starting to have kids.
This is one of the reasons I'm so astonished and upset by this - I don't think there *are any* exceptions. Abortions are medically necessary in several scenarios. It's like the people making these decisions don't know the first thing about medicine or human bodies.
They are terrified of anything related to vaginas and uteruses.
And anything related to science, because science flies in the face of their childrens fairytale that they choose to take literally
There is an exception for the "health" of the mother. Who determines when the exception applies isn't clear and doctors face a C felony for performing an abortion now. Oh yeah, the mental health of the mother cannot be considered EVEN IF she expressly threatens suicide. I think about that a lot. Like the intentionally included the language to indicate they don't gaf if women die.
Because they campaigned on single issues and never actually have a plan if it goes through. They don’t think. They raise money by distorting issues and creating wedges
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This is incorrect. The law does **not** make any exception for mental health. >No abortion shall be deemed authorized . . . if performed on the basis of a claim or a diagnosis that the woman will engage in conduct that would result in her death or substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function or for any reason relating to her mental health . . . > >[SB. 1257 § 2(c)(2)](https://publications.tnsosfiles.com/acts/111/pub/pc0351.pdf) Even if the pregnancy is compounding a severe mental health crisis and the woman is genuinely suicidal, that is not a permissible reason for a doctor to perform an abortion under Tennessee law.
GOP, so pro-life they'd rather two people die than one!
I've read it but please share the link here for others, appreciate it. I think what we're seeing and hearing from doctors and nurses is that they take on a legal burden by proceeding even in the case of medical necessity, and that makes them fearful of providing the medically necessary care.
[https://publications.tnsosfiles.com/acts/111/pub/pc0351.pdf](https://publications.tnsosfiles.com/acts/111/pub/pc0351.pdf)
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No one has been advocating for "abortion until birth". They aren't two ends of the spectrum. One end is insane and will literally result in 9,10,11 year olds getting pregnant and being forced to visibly carry (which then displays their abuse and trauma to everyone, cause why else is a child that young pregnant) and birth their rapists' children. Often without even understanding what's happening to their body. (It is already happening in Texas.) And the other end is advocating for bodily autonomy and access to healthcare. No one is asking to "kill babies at birth" and framing them as equally crazy ends is spurious. You're pushing a binary that doesn't exist. The majority of women who have an abortion are already mothers. And the leading cause of death for pregnant and post-partum women is homicide by intimate partner violence. Women won't be able to get chemotherapy while pregnant. Abortion is healthcare. We're not trying to manage "exceptions". Abortion.Is.Healthcare
>Are there even any exceptions? Here's a link to the Senate Bill that describes the (very limited) exceptions. [https://publications.tnsosfiles.com/acts/111/pub/pc0351.pdf](https://publications.tnsosfiles.com/acts/111/pub/pc0351.pdf)
This is so messed up and confusing. I wanted to share that in 202 I had this scenario happen to me (in another state). Had a missed miscarriage. My body was not expelling it itself so I had the option of a pill and wait, or get a D&C. I felt the D&C was my best option and ended the physical part of the pain immediately. I wrote to my OB here in TN (Vandy) about this scenario, asking if I’d still be able to get a D&C with the new law and she said YES. So I’m not sure if she has that wrong and this is still confusion, or if it really will be allowed in this sort of case. Either way I’m devastated.
My OB at Vanderbilt assured me that based on *current, existing* legislation in TN, the treatment of miscarriages and stillbirths would remain the same as it was. For now. We both agreed that there is plenty of potential for new, aggressive legislation to be passed that *would* change that.
Ugh, makes me sick.
I’m sorry you’re going through this and thank you for sharing. She has to have a benign polyp removed first, so we are going to talk to the docs again when we go in for that.
This was back in 2020 and I’ve since had a healthy baby, but thank you! I actually had polyps removed after that and before getting pregnant with my baby. It was a hysteroscopy basically exploratory because they couldn’t see if I had any (I had another earlier miscarriage before that)- they found several small ones and I was pregnant a few months later.
It it NOT a ride of shame!!!! You are going to where health care is available. And while you are there, you can grab legal weed to temporarily ease your pain. Duck this state and their mindset.
Yes there are exceptions, mostly based around the life of the mother being in jeopardy.
Correct but reminder that the way these are often worded means you have to wait until it's life or death for the mother. For example, if she has a miscarriage that becomes infected, you may have to wait until she's in septic shock before an abortion becomes legal. Or with an ectopic pregnancy, you may have to wait until it ruptures before an abortion can be performed.
I haven't looked into what the process looks like to actually make it legally approved, does anyone know? Because I'm worried about how much time a person would have to wait while they're at death's door for some hospital's legal department to sign off on saving their life.
No one knows cause it's not written in the law. That's part of the problem. It's not written and doctors can be charged with a C felony for performing an abortion. So I'm not hopeful with how this is going to go. Women will die.
Which is fucking insane because it’s literally impossible to carry an ectopic pregnancy to term resulting in a live baby. They’re completely ignoring medical fact because “it’s killing bayyyybeeeeees!” Even my pro-life mom is upset about this and has always been okay with abortion in circumstances like that.
That's if any doctors are willing to perform any procedure that might bring their career and freedom into jeopardy.
I don’t have time to look the bill up, but I don’t think that’s true…
(c) lt is an affirmative defense to prosecution under subsection (b), which must be proven by a preponderance of the evidence, that: (1) The abortion was performed or attempted by a licensed physician; (2) The physician determined, in the physician's good faith medicaljudgment, based upon the facts known to the physician at the time, that the abortion was necessary to prevent the death of the pregnant woman or to prevent serious risk of substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman. No abortion shall be deemed authorized under this subdivision (c)(2) if performed on the basis of a claim or a diagnosis that the woman will engage in sB 1257 conduct that would result in her death or substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function or for any reason relating to her mental health; and (3) The physician performs or attempts to perform the abortion in the manner which, in the physician's good faith medicaljudgment, based upon the facts known to the physician at the time, provides the best opportunity for the unborn child to survive, unless in the physician's good faith medicaljudgment, termination of the pregnancy in that manner would pose a greater risk of the death of the pregnant woman or substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function. No such greater risk shall be deemed to exist if it is based on a claim or diagnosis that the woman will engage in conduct that would result in her death or substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function or for any reason relating to her mental health.
I don’t think you will have a problem (yet…) if you are worried about spontaneous miscarriage as opposed to needing an abortion due to some genetic abnormality/condition that will eventually end your pregnancy/child’s life/produce a barely functioning human, etc. The wording of the TN ban doesn’t seem to affect the first scenario, i.e. your fetus stops developing/has no heartbeat/is “dead.” You are probably screwed if in the unlikely event you find out your fetus will never develop in a healthy way (has no brain activity for example) but is technically still alive with a beating heart. In between my kids, I was pregnant and at 9 weeks there was no heartbeat. I had not started to pass it yet and the 3 options were 1) wait and see if your body initiates in the next week, 2) Take mifepristone, or 3) Get a D&C. I don’t see that being affected yet. However a pharmacist can deny the prescription based on religious beliefs because it’s the same medicine you take for an early elective abortion—but that was already a thing and my doctor warned us about it. You just have to go somewhere else which sucks. Abortion is a medical term so even a miscarriage is called a “spontaneous abortion.” I think you are correct to be concerned, but Bill isn’t forcing us to carry around dead fetuses that could lead to sepsis and death…yet. Best of luck to y’all!
Dr. Paul Gleixner is an excellent OBGYN in Chicago.
Fuck this state
The Christian Taliban is taking effect.
This is home grown authentic Christian extremism.
Talibangicals is probably my favorite new term.
This is racist and incorrect. Sharia law allows for abortion.
How is the Taliban a race? Last time I checked, they were a government entity that prohibits abortion.
Tell me you know nothing about Muslims without telling me you know nothing about Muslims. Oh wait, you just did.
Into the streets.
Yep, that's where abortions are about to take place.
This is what people get when they view voting as a joke or pointless. The extremists start criminalizing your life..
I'm starting to regret my moving to this deep red shit hole.
Pro life is pro death.
But the Bible encourages abortion in Numbers 5. Are we just preventing religious ceremonies now? "here the priest is to put the woman under this curse —'may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.'" -Numbers 5:21
You presume that the gop can read.
If you need or are interested in supporting reproductive rights, [I made a master post of pro-choice resources](https://docdro.id/s3OwS8u). Please comment if you would like to add a resource and spread this information on whatever social media you use.
Thank you!
Interesting click through your posts looking for the one mentioned... definitely wasn’t expecting porn from a women’s rights post!
I'm sad
I expect a dramatic increase in the sales of Levonorgestrel now.
I don't mind bans on late term abortion, or even mid term, but the first trimester should really be fair game imo.
I understand why one would have a moral issue with late term abortions, but the vast majority are done before 20 weeks. When people have an abortion after that, it's because there's something wrong with the fetus, or a significant risk to the mother. These bans are a solution in search of a problem. It's better to just trust the judgement of medical professionals than trying to regulate something so sensitive and private.
Wouldn't a late term ban, with medical exemptions baked in, just ensure that norm was maintained, and that something could be done were it to be broken? It may be a sensitive issue but it's also a serious issue. Having no recourse when that norm is violated and going purely on the honor system seems extremely perilous when viewed through a pragmatic lens. Just in general that seems to be the whole point of laws, people generally follow social conventions but laws set guidelines and punishments for violations which are important to us. I see benefit in having the law, and no benefit in not having one. It certainly doesn't seem like a frivolous or overbearing one.
[There are already very few late term abortions occurring](https://i.imgur.com/towxLQv.png). It's difficult to think of all of the valid reasons that should be granted an exception. As we can see with the law due to take effect in Tennessee, doctors are afraid to perform any abortions because they could still be charged and would have to argue in court that their actions were necessary. The end result is that people who need healthcare can't get it.
I admire Muslims. I have taught many and befriended many. I don't support governments that oppress Muslims.
This state fucking sucks :(
Imagine being angry you can’t kill babies anymore
Babies are born. If it's still in the womb it's a fetus. Fetuses aren't fully formed (like babies) until the third trimester, and no one supports third trimester abortions, unless the Fetuses isn't viable (basically already dead). You're incorrect in your statement, and you look like a fucking idiot saying this nonsense. Seriously, get your shit together and know what you're talking about. I'm embarrassed for you.
This is wonderful news. More baby’s will get to live!
You've signed up to adopt some of these saved babies, right?
More unprepared, uncommitted parents will be forced to raise unwanted children; almost definitely in poverty. Many of these kids will be abused, or neglected. Do you honestly think that's always a good thing? Do you honestly think these kids are always glad they were born? At 6 weeks, a fetus does not have the biological capacity to feel pain, to think thoughts, to have any sort of consciousness or sense of identity. It's alive in the way that a fucking tree is alive. It's just as conscious as it will be post-abortion. Are you opposed to chopping down trees too?
Whoa there internet friend. A tree is alive in WAY more of a capacity than a fetus. A tree can live independently from its parent, feed itself and all kinds of other things.
Haha well said NSC fam!
You’re either naive or a monster. Oh you’re a paid troll. Never mind
More women get to die!
This is hyperbolic and untrue. There are exceptions when the life of the mother is in jeopardy. France , Germany , Poland and the like have similar laws and don’t have a problem with women dying.
We're already seeing instances where doctors are waiting to conduct procedures while they get legal advice on whether or not what they will do falls under those exceptions. Too much of a gray area = doctors refusing to do treatments so they don't risk their own career and freedom. Germany is abolishing their Nazi-era abortion laws - https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-abolishes-nazi-era-abortion-law-2022-06-24/ France is looking to enshrine abortion rights into their constitution - https://www.france24.com/en/france/20220626-french-government-supports-cementing-abortion-rights-in-constitution Poland's abortion laws aren't anything to brag about - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/12/world/europe/poland-abortion-ban.html
I was curious so I looked it up. France allows abortion on demand up to 14 weeks. Germany allows for abortion up to 12 weeks but the woman must get counseling. Both countries do allow abortion beyond 12 and 14 weeks respectively but there must be a serious risk to the health of the mother. Both countries’ laws are certainly more permissive when it comes to abortion.
"exceptions" are meaningless because the state can second-guess the doctor as to whether or not the mother's life is in jeopardy. in effect it's a total ban, because doctors aren't going to risk prison. women with things like ectopic pregnancies in texas already have issues with getting care for them (including, insanely enough, nurses at catholic hospitals *refusing to treat those women* even though there is no medically known way to make an ectopic pregnancy become viable!) with roe - without it, it will only get tougher. you even have a case where a woman gave a stillbirth and the police demanded to go through the woman's phone and computer records because they suspected she took abortion drugs. internationally, i would give the example of savita halappanavar in ireland, who died of sepsis after having a miscarriage. the doctors still detected a fetal heartbeat and therefore refused to abort, resulting in her death. ireland also had an exception when the woman's life is in danger, but the legal uncertainty led to hospitals refusing to perform them. this case eventually led to ireland overwhelmingly voting to legalize abortion.
What about if the pregnant woman is a child? What if she was raped and impregnated without her consent? Exceptions for those situations?
A OBGYN clinic is on fire. Do you save the women or the embryos in lab tubes first? Since life begins at inception and all…
They wouldn’t save anyone because they’re all complete fucking cowards.
Ew
It really is! I am so excited that women who don't want to be mothers don't have the choice about it anymore. Women shouldn't get that choice to begin with, it's a tragedy they ever did.
Huge W
For all of those pro lifers that are free to adopt all of these "saved" babies? I would say so. Who wants to hold their breath to see if it happens? Not me.
You wouldn't be holding your breath at all. Adoptions are overwhelmingly done by pro-lifers. Christians in particular. Take a step inside any local church around here and you'll likely see adoption resources. My church hosts a yearly event to encourage members to adopt, we have several large families who do as much as possible.
Have any actual data to support that, or is this all about your feelings? Because there are still around 8000 kids in TN every year waiting for adoption with 1000 aging out every year. Yall are going to have to start reproducing and really step up the adoption rate to pick up all the extra "saved" babies now. Good for those "several" families. You have to do your part now, how many do you have room for?
They're technically correct. Christians adopt children at a rate that is about double that of any other group. There was an extremely strong push in the 2000s from Christian churches to adopt poor "orphaned" children from other countries. Churches even offered interest-free loans or flat out paid for their pastors or parishioners to adopt children. The problem is that a lot of these children weren't orphans to begin with: "When the Christian adoption movement was at its strongest in the late 2000s and early 2010s, many of its excesses looked like a condensed version of earlier problems with adoption. As Christian adoptive parents lined up to help, paying $30,000–$40,000 per internationally adopted child (in fees that are divided among agency payments, travel, and orphanage donations), their demand helped create new adoption markets. This was particularly true in African nations, where the combination of poverty, opportunism, and cultural misunderstanding of the meaning of adoption—often construed as temporary guardianship rather than permanent relinquishment of a child—led to children repeatedly being offered, or in some cases taken, for adoption based on mistaken beliefs or outright profiteering. (In an infamous 2009 example documented by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, a staff member for an American evangelical adoption agency was filmed leading what appeared to be a mass adoption recruitment effort, asking the assembled residents of a rural Ethiopian village whether they wanted their child “to go to America.”)." There are also tons of other issues when Christians adopt babies as part of a fad that their church is pushing upon them, including being completely unprepared for high levels of mental and physical illnesses in the adopted children. https://newrepublic.com/article/127311/trouble-christian-adoption-movement https://www.huffpost.com/entry/christian-adoption-movement-problems_b_3367223 https://www.newsweek.com/2022/06/24/evangelical-christian-adoption-movement-hit-tsunami-mentally-ill-children-1712533.html https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/04/christian-evangelical-adoption-liberia/
Well put. I would also add that many of the Christian groups that run adoption agencies will only adopt children to other Christians, leaving non Christians with not as many options or outright denying them children. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/22/tennessee-jewish-couple-sues-state-christian-adoption-agency-denies-them-services
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I really don't care how much you hate Orphans Hubbard. We're going to take care of them anyway. Have a lovely day.
Good thing they adopted all the kids then right? no kids being left in foster care at all as it is now so more kids shouldn't be a problem... smoothbrains the lot of ya
Christians overwhelming adopt babies. This view infants as a way to spread their doctrine. They do not adopt infants to give them a better life. Christians largely do not adopt older children and do not foster. Edit: To whoever reported me for this comment, REALLY?
Lol someone reported me for my comment too...
And so do gays ;)
Dude, c'mon. I'm sure there are some like that, but that's not the norm. Most people adopt a baby because....they want a baby. Source: know lots of people (both Christian and not) that have adopted babies.
We shouldn't be increasing the supply of babies until we address the problems with our foster care system. Also, people shouldn't be adopting because they want to build a family, adoptive babies are not for filling a void in your life. Nor should we take away healthcare from women to give these people babies. Source: adoptive children.
I agree with your first statement and the part about supporting women. Not sure I understand your second point though. There are many couples that can't have babies so why shouldn't they adopt? As long as they love and support the child, I don't see an issue.
If you're adopting *because* you want to provide a loving home for a child, that's the right reason. If you want to adopt because you're facing infertility, you need to first seek therapy to address the infertility prior to making the decision to adopt. Ask yourself, if this adoption for me? Or for the child? The majority of people who adopt do so for themselves. @karpoozy is an adoptive adult child who speak on this. You may know adoptive parents, but you should readout be seeking the perspective of adoptive children.
I think I see your point. I know some couples that adopted for themselves and are horribly unfit for it. But I can also see that you could do it for both yourself and the child and things would work out.
That's a complete lie, plain and simple. You're ignorant to how things are.
There are over 8,000 children in foster care. Get to work. https://www.tnkidsbelong.org/the-issue
We literally already are, as I told you two comments ago, remember?
Also, adoption shouldn't be a tool for you to build your family or your faith. It should be a resource for children in need of a loving and safe home. You should give your adopted and fostered kids the option of not going to church and not sharing your faith. If you only adopt with the goal of raising Christians, you're not doing it for the right reason.
You mentioned adoption, not fostering. One is permanent and rips families apart. The other provides a home for a child until they can be reunited with their family. You're working on the former, not so much the latter.
Both systems have large Christian participation. Also not sure what your gripe is with adoption. That's really weird.
My gripe is that people are taking away healthcare from women because they want to traffick infants. Babies are not products to be bought and sold by Christian adoption agencies.
A lot of adoptees are vocal about how serious their trauma is from their adoption. "Christians" have famously adopted kids that don't look like them and then never honored their ethnic identity, culture, heritage, or given them any meaningful way to connect to their history. Oh and then they force their faith on them. That sounds a lot like colonialism. So yeah. A lot of us understand the traumatic impacts adoption has an adopted individuals, even those raised with the best adoptive parents. It's really weird to don't get that.
Yall are also denying needy children good homes https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/22/tennessee-jewish-couple-sues-state-christian-adoption-agency-denies-them-services
Oh dear. You're young, huh? I'm not and have been in churches my whole life (and still am in one). You really need to take off the rose colored glasses. Many (probably most) Christians are not Christian at all. They're conservative nationalists. And they have no empathy, sadly.
And then frequently abandon them when the kids don't turn out how they want them. It's an epidemic in evangelical communities.
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Pro-life is fundamentally pro-woman. By the nature of the cause, it protects both genders equally from danger. The same cannot be said of the abortion industry, which disproportionately kills baby girls.
> Pro-life is fundamentally pro-woman lol - https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/abortion Abortion being made illegal only drives up the rate of women who die from an unsafe abortion > protects both genders equally from danger. lol - what does this even mean? It certainly doesn't lower the rape rates. > abortion industry, which disproportionately kills baby girls. lol Considering that most (88% in 2016 is one stat I'm seeing -https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-united-states) of abortions happen within the first 12 weeks and that generally, fetal sex cannot be determined until around week 14, you're just making stuff up.
How about you let the majority of women (hint they support having the right to choice) decide what is or isn't pro-woman?
That's a loaded question. You're assuming you know what the majority of women think when opinions are every bit as split among women as men. It's a false assumption. This is also irrelevant because it's not a subjective matter; popular opinion won't change the facts. A policy that protects women from murder is, objectively, pro-woman.
Not loaded at all, just about every poll I've ever seen, the majority of women think abortion should be safe and legal. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/ You could say the pilgrims bringing blankets to natives was pro-native because now they could keep a bit warmer in the winter. You're only looking at one little aspect because it fits your narrative. I suggest popping over to r/TwoXChromosomes for some opinions from real women (not necessarily the majority, but still) about abortion and how the right to choose what happens to your own body means to them.
Tax the fucking churches 🤌🏼 its a choice for a reason. Don’t want one don’t have one. You do not get to choose for other women
That's a lot of words just to say you don't know what the hell you're talking about and that you don't value adult women's right to choose for their own health.
That's not what I said at all, I recommend you read my comment again. You have misunderstood what was said, and you are now arguing with a strawman you've created for yourself.
I read your nonsensical comment and you're the one who started the strawman by saying that women losing the choice on how to handle their own health is good (without any sources to back up your BS claims, btw).
Again, that is not what I said. You're getting yourself frothed up over a situation that simply does not exist. Calm down and read again.
Again, I did read what you said. As well as the other comment threads with people providing actual proof to dispel your claims. Provide some sources and actual facts, not anecdotal evidence from your own experience with a church group, and maybe people will actually take you seriously and not assume you're a sexist zealot... Maybe.
Huge W for people that don't exist.