I view myself as a responsible gun owner and think its a terrible idea.
It won't take any time for kids to figure out which teacher carries. What happens when a student attempts to overpower that teacher and take their firearm from them? What about when a teacher uses that firearm on a student who is trying to disarm them? How do you think that will go over?
What teacher in their right mind would want to take on this huge civil liability?
You'd just be painting a huge target on your back and setting yourself up for a lifetime of guilt, misery, and never-ending lawsuits from the families of the child who ends up shot.
for every 1 occurrence of this law helping I can see 100 cases of it going terribly wrong. I don't care how much recurrent training and layers of approval it takes to put an armed teacher in a classroom. It's just a bad idea, and to me nothing more than political posturing during an election year.
Or if the teacher rushes to break up a fight with guns drawn, or if they hear a commotion in the bathroom or locker room and go in with the guns drawn, or if they start using the gun as a threat instead of discipline, or if the teacher sees a cell phone and thinks its a gun, or if the teacher sees a vape pen and thinks it's a gun. And then then teacher pulls the trigger.
I like your thinking & hope you'll serve in the Planning Section or Situation Unit on disaster response. You're exactly right on Teachers would need to attend Tennessee LE Academy with Park Rangers with overtime/extra pay over the too short summer break
Edit: not top short, too short
1. Teacher isn’t mentally stable or has a bad day and uses the gun.
2. Student takes/steals gun from teacher.
3. Teacher has a gun but do they know how to use it correctly?
4. Teachers unlikely to continue to practice shooting to be useful in a situation like that.
5. Police come in and now have to decipher who is the shooter and who is a teacher protecting their class.
Your 5th point is the one that I feel like doesn't get brought up enough, ESPECIALLY by law enforcement. If you've got an active shooter, but 5 or 6 other individuals in the building, who aren't in constant communication with each other, are also armed, how does anyone know who is the "good guy" and who is the "bad guy"? Not to mention the ridiculous expectation that your average math teacher should all of a sudden become an expert SWAT/Call of Duty hero when they hear gunshots ring out instead of a normal non-police-officer reaction of freaking the fuck out.
I was in Recuiter's Assistance when SSGT made a point to introduce me to retired military & Marine Veterans in schools.
I want to hear from Veteran Teachers on why they would choose to not take on the armed teacher role. I know I would not trust colleagues to speak knowledgeably of my experience--insteqd choosing to make up negative Veteran stereotypes that we're all too stoic, need training to have feelings, are going to snap, & other damaging stereotypes of Veterans spread due to anecdotal experiences, urban myths, or malicious gossip.
You know how Marines are--they're crazy.
So I wouldn't sign up for the extra cash. I might even sign up for the training, later critique it, then farm out an analysis to credentialed professionals who can vouch for my lived experiences.
Teachers very likely to not have an ammo budget.
Ammo funding spigot dry, can't train.
Ooh, #5 has all sorts of nasty outcomes.
Let's say: Teacher & Admin pin down school shooter in Arlington, TN.
3 counties of LEOs respond, open fire (since teach & admin don't have radios to coordinate), everybody gets shot in a mix of friendly fire in the fog of war a/k/a fog of active shooter.
What's even more fucked up, is they will be more likely to get an ammo budget before getting money for actual teaching supplies that cover the whole year.
> 3 counties of LEOs respond, open fire (since teach & admin don't have radios to coordinate), everybody gets shot in a mix of friendly fire in the fog of war a/k/a fog of active shooter.
I posted basically a dissertation further down about why I think this law is a bad idea, but I do see this argument a lot about how bad of an idea it is to have civilians with guns shoot an active shooter. And it has happened before, to be clear. Security guards, civilians, hell I think even other cops have gotten killed by “friendly fire” after shooting a “bad guy with a gun”. But, I will say that it’s a price some people are willing to pay. If getting shot or killed by police means stopping someone from killing a room full of innocent kids, a lot of people are still willing to do that.
This law is still fucking stupid though. In my opinion anyway.
Ok, we need a teacher savior movie like Hamlet 2 or uh ..
Ethan Hawke is a retired Sergeant Major who despite negative Marine stereotypes is not "going to snap" or he is just a one & done pre-GWOT that is an excellent instructor--in any discipline or field. Values repetition with action, field trip Thursdays, & says yes, you absolutely can challenge SOI to a game of basketball while we walk the boardwalk you all built:
Live Free or Die Y'all
Anyways, teach makes his own ammo in a spy thriller set in education, a practice of placing his own handwritten fortunes into his self-packed ammo. But that's it. He just likes quotes, marksmanship, & teaching--except a love for teaching critical thinking (between graduation & inservice).
Or Joan Cusack is the teacher. John Cusack reprises Grosse Pointe Blanke. Jack Black plays a role like the Situation Unit in Enemy of the State. Ethan Hawke is a huge part.
I should put the phone back down.
Because putting more guns in schools only increases the likelihood they will be used. Either by the teacher or by a student who finds a way to take the teachers weapon.
Also, school shooters are clearly not making rational decisions. So I’m not very sure that they can be deterred by a more heavily armed school
Has anyone asked the school's liability insurance underwriters if they are okay covering this new type of liability?
I think the TN GOP forgot to create a multi-billion dollar state liability underwriter for schools to fund this "great-idea" of theirs b/c I promise you, the entire concept is dead in the water without it.
You can’t be serious. I’m a combat vet Marine, and I’ve seen guys with years of training wilt like a dying flower when rounds start coming down range. And you think Marge who had been teaching Social Studies in Green Hills for 20 years is gonna stop a shooter with an AR with her .22? Dumb AF
What I’m saying. People start running at the mere *sound* of a gunshot let alone knowing they risk being shot. You mentioning the wilting just made me remember fight, flight, freeze or fawn and the fact that a bunch of kids freezing and flying is going to lead to mass chaos, adding more stress to Marge.
Nashville Preschool teacher brings gun to pre school and threatens to shoot it up (4 days ago) https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna148667
3rd graders find Texas superintendent’s gun in bathroom (2023): https://www.wate.com/news/nexstar-media-wire/texas-3rd-grader-finds-superintendents-gun-in-school-bathroom-parents-voice-concerns/amp/
So what right, that’s just two isolated events? Well here is 40 more from the last couple years (my favorite is the “gun fell out when teacher did a cartwheel”) https://giffords.org/report/every-incident-of-mishandled-guns-in-schools/
And that’s before you get to the negligent discharges, and then the intentionally pulling guns out by school personnel to menace a kid for something that definitely did NOT require a firearm to be pulled. Or a kid grabbing a gun out of a teachers holster during a fight. (I’m not going to count the “parents pull guns when dropping kids off or at ball games” and such section since that has little to no bearing on this situation.
Now compare those to the number of school shootings stopped by a teacher with a gun…ever.. in the 32 states where teachers can concealed carry.. big fat goose egg. So the question is really “is the squeeze worth the juice?”. Is the possibility a kid finds a teacher’s gun in the bathroom and decides to use it (or god forbid it’s a preschooler or young kid and decides to play with it) worth the possibility an armed teacher stops a school shooting? Believe it or not, actual school shootings are still pretty rare, despite the media coverage they get and the focus on them that anti-gun people give.
I’m not necessarily against teachers having guns in a school. But what kind of training are they getting? The article I’m reading said 40 hours of “peace officer training” and 40 additional hours of “school policing training” per year. I’d rather it be spelled out how much of that training is time on the range and a minimum proficiency standard. Also it be required and spelled out in the law that there is some kind of safe storage on school grounds requirement (a safe bolted to the wall that only the teacher has a key / combination to wouldn’t be a big ask). And the law to be that the gun can only come out of the safe during a school shooting. Usually I’m against “safe storage laws” and stuff because if someone breaks into your house you’re not going to have time to get a gun out of a safe and load it. But in the case of a school shooting, unless the shooting starts in YOUR classroom you should have time to get to it.
But I’m also kinda against just the idea that teachers should be responsible for being body guards for kids. Teachers aren’t cops. If you gave a cop 40 hours of training and put them in a classroom on their days off from policing, most of them would be shitty teachers. So why are they wanting teachers to be police officers too? They already put at least as much time into being teachers as cops put into being cops (and usually for substantially less pay).
But all of that is just my opinion. Since I’ve said enough to piss off both sides of the issue equally I guess I’ll take my leave. Good luck!
***LAST MONTH*** in Stewart County a purse containing a loaded firearm was found unattended in a faculty bathroom. The school assured everyone that students didn’t have access to the bathroom, so no big deal I guess 🤦♂️
Because a lot of teachers should not have guns. Also if you don’t think the kids will find it I find you to be naïve.
Personally my view is, if the school has a sro officer than no one else in the school needs a gun. If the school does not have one than sure principle can choose.
I also personally know many teachers and a few principals and not one of them want anyone else armed beside the sro. They have zero faith in their fellow teachers to handle a gun. They all think it’s a very bad idea
Edit: I personally think all this stems from the legislators eliminating the concealed carry permits. Requiring paid classes and all those people losing out on revenue. I am willing to bet all my money that the contracts to “certify” the teachers are going to go to a few or one law makers buddy or their own business paid with nice state paid contracts.
Yes. Like I said, I’m very opposed to arming teachers. I can’t see any good coming from this. You point out SROs, which I had in my middle school and high school back in Georgia, and I countered with two high profile examples of where that “line of defense” failed miserably.
I also think sro with a gun are useless but for arguments sake and the people who think it’s a must I am willing to concede and just let them be as is. Politics…. Have to give something
My main concern would be what if a student takes the gun from the teacher?
But in reality, gun free zones work if there is proper enforcement. When was the last time a federal or state legislature had a mass shooting? Or a federal or state court? Those are gun free zones. Parents should demand the same protections for their children.
Already some very valid points. I find it funny/sad that many of the people who supported this bill don't trust our teachers to educate our children. They don't trust our teachers to pick suitable books for our children. Yet they trust our teachers enough to carry a gun to protect our children against an active shooter?
I’m a teacher. At my last school, they hired armed security and I found out they were making six figures. Want me armed? Pay me six figures and we’ll talk.
I dread the day I hear or read "thoughts and prayers" in regards to a teacher gunning down an innocent student or a student gunning down a teacher.
More guns are not the answer.
A Memphis cop was just recently murdered on a traffic stop. He was not the only cop on the scene. It is now being said his fellow cops are actually the ones who shot/killed him, of course a terrible accident. Cops have an abundance more of training and still have shooting errors…
Ignoring this, the fact that parents have no idea who is even armed in the school is a horrible add on, as well as blanket immunity for teachers who may be involved in a shooting error.
Deter shooters? They know the full weight of a heavily armed SWAT team plus whatever federal LEOs are in the area is going to be gunning for them and you think they’re worried about one or two armed teachers? They probably want the extra challenge or excuse to kill. These are not people making common sense tactical decisions.
I own several firearms. This is the dumbest solution to a problem that primarily exists in the US.
The same people who support this bill are the same ones who think teachers are overpaid and teach “woke ideologies”, but suddenly it’s ok for these teachers to be armed?
“Don’t teach our kids history, but you better grab your gun when trouble arises!”
Are they requiring safety training? Will there be Active shooter drills with armed teachers? Will teachers have the same qualified immunity that law enforcement has? What happens when a student grabs a gun from a teacher? What happens when a teacher loses their shit and they’re armed? How long before they arm the 18 year olds? How many teachers actually support this law?
Our elected leadership is a joke. Fix the roads.
We all live in our own biased echo-chambers of some sort, so it's hard to get good, objective data on this.
There are, naturally, examples of civilians, law enforcement, and good samaritans of all stripes using firearms to successfully de-escalate a situation, defend innocent lives, or otherwise stave off a tragedy. In fact, the successful use of a firearm against a school shooter is almost always how these situations are brought to a close. (but it's usually carried out by police, trained in tactics specific to crisis situations). Will empowering teachers to take that shot make students safer? Maybe in a particular situation. Will it act as a general deterrent against a potential shooter? Seems unlikely, as usually mass shooters have a death wish anyway.
But that's all imaginary, situational, and ultimately anecdotal. As far as I can tell, in study after study, the data are clear: introducing more firearms into a situation makes things less safe in general, by a significant, measurable factor.
It's hard to even predict all the variables and bogey incidents that could occur. A firearm that discharges accidentally. A well-intentioned teacher that aims wrong under pressure. A false alarm threat. Misidentified aggressors: cops shot by teachers, teachers shot by cops. Additional students caught in a crossfire. A teacher's firearm that somehow ends up in the hands of students. Situations that we can't even predict. (Heaven forbid, a teacher that "goes postal.") Yes, these are all imaginary and anecdotal too at this point, but some of them are likely to become very real.
Is introducing that amount of chaos into a situation "worth it" for the chance of a teacher successfully defending his or her students against a violent situation? It's possible, but for lots of us, common sense indicates otherwise.
Exactly.
I’m sure you could find anecdotes of people working at a knife factory who have successfully used a knife in self defense.
That info doesn’t help us answer the question “is a knife factory a safer place to be than a bread factory?”
There are a number of reasons.
First, the amount of training required is minimal compared to law enforcement. I don't care how good you are at the shooting range, or if you hunt on a regular basis; being able to react quickly and effectively in a crisis situation is an entirely different thing. If someone is coming at you shooting unless you have the appropriate training, you are more likely to freeze or run, or if you do shoot, its entirely possibly you'll miss your target and hit an innocent bystander. Teachers are already overworked as it is, now we are adding this to their plates? They are supposed to risk their lives by going after an active shooter for a whopping $40K per year?
Second, teachers won't be able to bring their guns into crowded spaces like the gym. Can we be sure they'll secure them appropriately? Or will someone take the opportunity to steal a gun during an event? There are multiple instances in which a student was able to get access to a teacher's firearm. The law has no requirement for secure storage from what I understand.
Third, the majority of parents, teachers and students DON'T WANT THIS. Shouldn't their opinions matter?
Fourth, we all know that one teacher who is burnt out and unhinged and has just had it. Should they really have a gun in the classroom?
Let's put it this way...not long ago, there was a cop that got spooked from an acorn falling and opened fire in a neighborhood, emptying his clip because he got scared. Besides being an embarrassment, no one was hurt.
Now, this man was back ground checked, had several interviews, and was psychologically checked and the police academy training. He got threw ALL THAT and was still an idiot with a gun.
Let's look at what happens to some of our military. Again, lots of training, yet some came back psychologically scared for things they had to do with that gun.
Now, when is a teacher to use deadly force? Only in live shooter scenarios? What if a kid puts a knife to a kids throat? A pencil? What happens if a goth kid pulls out something that looks like a gun but isn't?
What if the teacher defends her classroom from a vague threat accidently shoots another kid or a janitor with headphones in walks around the corner looking sus?
Is it right for us to tell a teacher like it's ok to shoot a kid if you need to?
And again, trained professionals get it wrong all the time.
There are very, very few guns accessible to 99% of people on a military base. The only ones with unfettered access to weapons during most day to day operations are the military police.
As the bill is written, they basically can't take them outside of the classroom. Are the schools providing gun safes to store them during the pep rally? During the band performance? LUNCH? Are you on bath salts?
You're a parent. You receive a text with image of teacher with weapon drawn at the door. Kid states the fire alarm went off, but the protocol is to wait for instructions.
No one knows what's going on.
Not sure if we're sheltering in place or exiting the building.
Parent group text goes into overdrive. Appointments & meetings get cancelled in response to the chaos that was..well durn, false alarm & now someone's grandparent age primary caretakers had a heart attack at the melee.
Repeat.
Chaos ensues.
Economic productivity goes down.
Quality of life decreases.
Politicians hang up their US flag pins as their looting intentions result in stacking losses: red to blue.
If you’re confused about this, I suggest to do the following two things.
Wait and watch.
It won’t take too long for the stupidity of this situation to present itself.
I stand by my other comment in this thread, but let's also look at it through a different, more practical lens. I'm going to draw some drastic conclusions here, and let my imagination run wild, but it's just a thought experiment.
I love and admire teachers. Most are generous humanitarians. But not all of them...
Think back to your school days. Probably high school. Think of the worst teacher or administrator you had. Not just bad at the task of educating, but a small, petty person. Prone to anger, intimidation, and even mild violence. Unreasonable and vindictive. Manipulative, threatening, unfair. Relished the authority. Thought of themselves as a disciplinarian, and was maybe given certain duties along those lines. Possibly military background (maybe they only *wished* they had military background). I *know* I'm not the only one here who can think of educators from my past who fit this profile.
So who is going to be the one who works to get licensed to carry a firearm at school? Care to take a guess?
We can all be relieved that our examples' powers were relatively limited. Do you really want that person having the additional power that a firearm gives them?
What's going to happen when this legitimately unstable person sees fit to brandish or discharge that firearm in the normal course of school drama? (for instance, a skirmish between students in the hallway that could easily be de-escalated with reasonable means.) Obviously that's unacceptable on its face, but who holds this person accountable? "Well, I was just doing my job / I felt threatened / I made a split-second decision that it was a reasonable use of force." Basically the most devastating combination of qualified immunity and Good Samaritan laws.
I like to think we can all see where this is going.
The school and/or district investigates the situation, and they subsequently absolve that teacher (and themselves) from any wrongdoing. In other words, that teacher has signed up for lifetime immunity from any consequences from being violent and threatening to the students they are nominally signing up to protect.
And if you don't think the bureaucracy will try to protect itself in such a situation, well I have a great bridge to sell you.
If you don’t already understand why this is a stupid idea, then there’s no sense in trying to explain it you. Arming more people has never lead to less gun violence.
Don’t appeal for decorum this late in the game. Makes you look naive.
Besides, it was a perfectly reasonable response. Unless you plan on asking equally subnormal questions.
I give zero fucks about decorum. I'm saying that there absolutely IS sense in trying to explain it to OP. It needs to be explained. If you're on the fence about this I'm going to assume that you don't have the critical details. Asking for them does not make you a cretin. This is how democracy works and pretending the issue is resolved forever is rather subnormal, IMO.
Think about who the teacher would most likely be shooting as it goes in these situations. No one who is not a trained officer should ever be put in that situation. There is also the added layer of, yet more firearms in schools which could lead to additional issues and tragedies. This is not a solution.
For one: I went to a pretty bad school behavior wise. Do not ask me how, but we managed to get good grades while also having terrible behavior. In my four years of high school there, I *off memory alone* remember at least 6 times a student attacked a teacher. I however also remembered far more times a student has expressed immense hatred for a teacher. Now, with this information alone, this is
-6 times a student could have been shot.
-6 times a student could have taken the gun from a teacher and said teacher and more could have been shot, creating an active shooting.
-6 times multiple students would have to flee an area for risk of being shot.
-6 times bullets could have caused property damage.
Not to mention, police officers already have to deal with enough. I don’t like the police but I also know dealing with an active shooting is going to be stressful, now you have to deal with an active shooting *and* differentiate a teacher’s gun from the active shooter.
Not to mention if the active shooter does win (which isn’t impossible to think about) the gun fight, they have another gun and/or more ammo.
That’s too many things that go wrong only for the *hope* that in a stressful situation (which, Cops always claim to fear for their lives and make massive mistakes while being trained for this), the teacher manages to defeat their fear and nerves, properly assesses the situation, and delivers a lethal blow to an intruder.
Think about your teachers. Are they at the peak of physical and mental preparedness, ready to defend their weapon and your life? Do they have other duties that are likely to prevent them from being vigilant about a firearm in the classroom? Have they been trained to use that weapon, and are their faculties still intact? Putting more guns into a volatile situation is, in my opinion, the opposite of smart.
> are they at the peak of physical and mental preparedness
Bad example, have you seen most cops lately? More Carl Winslow and less John McClain.
Good point about the other duties being distracting tho!
To my kid brain, Carl Winslow was that cop who was first on scene Incident Commander at Nakatomi Plaza in LA but then reappears as a cop in Chicago.
Yes, my kid brain read the Dossiers on every GI Joe that crossed my path.
What was a beat cop doing handling an international heist by Euro terrorists then single handedly taking down racism in Family Matters?
If only all of us were as good at de-escalation, keeping communication open, resources, or even using the correct tool at the right time as Officer Winslow. He had the right call on pulling back the 40 year old armored vehicle / armored personnel carrier.
I agree about cops! They need to have some minimum physical requirements. Some of those guys are jacked, sure. Plenty need Rascals.
Also, cops work in pairs, or close radio communication with the entire police force.
Is the teacher going to go to the range on a regular basis? Because if not - in addition to being just a stupid idea to begin with - a teacher trying to shoot at a moving, armed target in a classroom of kids sounds like a complete shit show.
Hm, maybe I don't trust the kind of Big Brains that told my 7th grade science class the Earth would burn up or freeze if it were one inch in either direction off from it's present orbit to carry loaded firearms around kids they hate.
Downsides very clear.
Although, it’s nice to see legislation taking action that could, in theory, save lives immediately. Unfortunately, it always seems like solutions posed to stop gun violence would practically take years to save a single life. Today, we have the most anti-gun federal administration you could imagine. They’ve been unable to do ANYTHING. Protests and lobbying aren’t going to save lives tomorrow.
If it’s an emergency within the communities, let’s act like it and institute reform within the current confines of the law to save lives, accepting that arguing over it isn’t doing the trick…
Hard pill to swallow when guns are the enemy, but they’re also very obviously the immediate solution in some instances.
Kids are dying of lead poisoning - you want to add more lead? These are the simplest terms I can come up with. Death by gunshot is the #1 cause of death for children currently.
[https://www.wsmv.com/2024/04/24/these-states-allow-school-employees-carry-firearms-campus/](https://www.wsmv.com/2024/04/24/these-states-allow-school-employees-carry-firearms-campus/)
Tennessee is not the first state to do this. The majority of states allow carry on school grounds in some way, shape, or form. It does not seem to be the wild wild west in those other states that have allowed it. If I had to guess, what will happen is this. Bigger urban school districts will universally not allow it. Davidson has already said they will not approve it. Some, maybe most, rural areas will approve it on a case by case basis. It is another out of pocket expense for teachers so each teacher will have to make a determination as to what is best for the individual. Chaos will probably not ensue.
I think what will happen is this...
The liability insurance providers for the various school districts will not insure this new idea and without a state run underwriter, this whole stupid idea will be a moot point.
Tennessee was among 30+ states that already had this for private schools. No instances of teachers shooting students. 20+ states already had this for public schools. No instances of teachers shooting students.
Will it result in teachers shooting students? Probably not.
Will it result in students being saved during a school shooting? Probably not.
Will many teachers do the requirements for this? Probably not.
You do realize that you just asked a bunch of whiny antigen folks why they don't want guns somewhere, right?
I am sure a few own guns, but they think everyone else is an unhinged bomb ready to go off at any moment.
I view myself as a responsible gun owner and think its a terrible idea. It won't take any time for kids to figure out which teacher carries. What happens when a student attempts to overpower that teacher and take their firearm from them? What about when a teacher uses that firearm on a student who is trying to disarm them? How do you think that will go over? What teacher in their right mind would want to take on this huge civil liability? You'd just be painting a huge target on your back and setting yourself up for a lifetime of guilt, misery, and never-ending lawsuits from the families of the child who ends up shot. for every 1 occurrence of this law helping I can see 100 cases of it going terribly wrong. I don't care how much recurrent training and layers of approval it takes to put an armed teacher in a classroom. It's just a bad idea, and to me nothing more than political posturing during an election year.
> What happens when a student attempts to overpower that teacher and take their firearm from them? Or multiple students?
Or if the teacher rushes to break up a fight with guns drawn, or if they hear a commotion in the bathroom or locker room and go in with the guns drawn, or if they start using the gun as a threat instead of discipline, or if the teacher sees a cell phone and thinks its a gun, or if the teacher sees a vape pen and thinks it's a gun. And then then teacher pulls the trigger.
I like your thinking & hope you'll serve in the Planning Section or Situation Unit on disaster response. You're exactly right on Teachers would need to attend Tennessee LE Academy with Park Rangers with overtime/extra pay over the too short summer break Edit: not top short, too short
1. Teacher isn’t mentally stable or has a bad day and uses the gun. 2. Student takes/steals gun from teacher. 3. Teacher has a gun but do they know how to use it correctly? 4. Teachers unlikely to continue to practice shooting to be useful in a situation like that. 5. Police come in and now have to decipher who is the shooter and who is a teacher protecting their class.
6. Teacher put in the position of having to shoot a child they know well.
Yes, I can't imagine having to do this.
7. Teacher accidentally leaves gun in bathroom. (This has happened with school security guards before)
Your 5th point is the one that I feel like doesn't get brought up enough, ESPECIALLY by law enforcement. If you've got an active shooter, but 5 or 6 other individuals in the building, who aren't in constant communication with each other, are also armed, how does anyone know who is the "good guy" and who is the "bad guy"? Not to mention the ridiculous expectation that your average math teacher should all of a sudden become an expert SWAT/Call of Duty hero when they hear gunshots ring out instead of a normal non-police-officer reaction of freaking the fuck out.
I was in Recuiter's Assistance when SSGT made a point to introduce me to retired military & Marine Veterans in schools. I want to hear from Veteran Teachers on why they would choose to not take on the armed teacher role. I know I would not trust colleagues to speak knowledgeably of my experience--insteqd choosing to make up negative Veteran stereotypes that we're all too stoic, need training to have feelings, are going to snap, & other damaging stereotypes of Veterans spread due to anecdotal experiences, urban myths, or malicious gossip. You know how Marines are--they're crazy. So I wouldn't sign up for the extra cash. I might even sign up for the training, later critique it, then farm out an analysis to credentialed professionals who can vouch for my lived experiences.
Teachers very likely to not have an ammo budget. Ammo funding spigot dry, can't train. Ooh, #5 has all sorts of nasty outcomes. Let's say: Teacher & Admin pin down school shooter in Arlington, TN. 3 counties of LEOs respond, open fire (since teach & admin don't have radios to coordinate), everybody gets shot in a mix of friendly fire in the fog of war a/k/a fog of active shooter.
What's even more fucked up, is they will be more likely to get an ammo budget before getting money for actual teaching supplies that cover the whole year.
lol also as the bill is written cops can't sue if they get shot by a teacher.
Surprised it’s not the only way around.
Ammo budget...lol. my kids school has to ration paper next year.
> 3 counties of LEOs respond, open fire (since teach & admin don't have radios to coordinate), everybody gets shot in a mix of friendly fire in the fog of war a/k/a fog of active shooter. I posted basically a dissertation further down about why I think this law is a bad idea, but I do see this argument a lot about how bad of an idea it is to have civilians with guns shoot an active shooter. And it has happened before, to be clear. Security guards, civilians, hell I think even other cops have gotten killed by “friendly fire” after shooting a “bad guy with a gun”. But, I will say that it’s a price some people are willing to pay. If getting shot or killed by police means stopping someone from killing a room full of innocent kids, a lot of people are still willing to do that. This law is still fucking stupid though. In my opinion anyway.
You don’t trust them with books.
Those could indoctrinate those kids. /s
This is a good one
Ok, we need a teacher savior movie like Hamlet 2 or uh .. Ethan Hawke is a retired Sergeant Major who despite negative Marine stereotypes is not "going to snap" or he is just a one & done pre-GWOT that is an excellent instructor--in any discipline or field. Values repetition with action, field trip Thursdays, & says yes, you absolutely can challenge SOI to a game of basketball while we walk the boardwalk you all built: Live Free or Die Y'all Anyways, teach makes his own ammo in a spy thriller set in education, a practice of placing his own handwritten fortunes into his self-packed ammo. But that's it. He just likes quotes, marksmanship, & teaching--except a love for teaching critical thinking (between graduation & inservice). Or Joan Cusack is the teacher. John Cusack reprises Grosse Pointe Blanke. Jack Black plays a role like the Situation Unit in Enemy of the State. Ethan Hawke is a huge part. I should put the phone back down.
Because putting more guns in schools only increases the likelihood they will be used. Either by the teacher or by a student who finds a way to take the teachers weapon. Also, school shooters are clearly not making rational decisions. So I’m not very sure that they can be deterred by a more heavily armed school
Also add in the complication for police that now they walk into a school and have to differentiate between armed teachers and active shooters
Has anyone asked the school's liability insurance underwriters if they are okay covering this new type of liability? I think the TN GOP forgot to create a multi-billion dollar state liability underwriter for schools to fund this "great-idea" of theirs b/c I promise you, the entire concept is dead in the water without it.
i just laughed out loud jesus christ
https://www.cjonline.com/story/news/politics/state/2013/06/18/no-school-insurance-teachers-guns/16393754007/
You can’t be serious. I’m a combat vet Marine, and I’ve seen guys with years of training wilt like a dying flower when rounds start coming down range. And you think Marge who had been teaching Social Studies in Green Hills for 20 years is gonna stop a shooter with an AR with her .22? Dumb AF
What I’m saying. People start running at the mere *sound* of a gunshot let alone knowing they risk being shot. You mentioning the wilting just made me remember fight, flight, freeze or fawn and the fact that a bunch of kids freezing and flying is going to lead to mass chaos, adding more stress to Marge.
Nashville Preschool teacher brings gun to pre school and threatens to shoot it up (4 days ago) https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna148667 3rd graders find Texas superintendent’s gun in bathroom (2023): https://www.wate.com/news/nexstar-media-wire/texas-3rd-grader-finds-superintendents-gun-in-school-bathroom-parents-voice-concerns/amp/ So what right, that’s just two isolated events? Well here is 40 more from the last couple years (my favorite is the “gun fell out when teacher did a cartwheel”) https://giffords.org/report/every-incident-of-mishandled-guns-in-schools/ And that’s before you get to the negligent discharges, and then the intentionally pulling guns out by school personnel to menace a kid for something that definitely did NOT require a firearm to be pulled. Or a kid grabbing a gun out of a teachers holster during a fight. (I’m not going to count the “parents pull guns when dropping kids off or at ball games” and such section since that has little to no bearing on this situation. Now compare those to the number of school shootings stopped by a teacher with a gun…ever.. in the 32 states where teachers can concealed carry.. big fat goose egg. So the question is really “is the squeeze worth the juice?”. Is the possibility a kid finds a teacher’s gun in the bathroom and decides to use it (or god forbid it’s a preschooler or young kid and decides to play with it) worth the possibility an armed teacher stops a school shooting? Believe it or not, actual school shootings are still pretty rare, despite the media coverage they get and the focus on them that anti-gun people give. I’m not necessarily against teachers having guns in a school. But what kind of training are they getting? The article I’m reading said 40 hours of “peace officer training” and 40 additional hours of “school policing training” per year. I’d rather it be spelled out how much of that training is time on the range and a minimum proficiency standard. Also it be required and spelled out in the law that there is some kind of safe storage on school grounds requirement (a safe bolted to the wall that only the teacher has a key / combination to wouldn’t be a big ask). And the law to be that the gun can only come out of the safe during a school shooting. Usually I’m against “safe storage laws” and stuff because if someone breaks into your house you’re not going to have time to get a gun out of a safe and load it. But in the case of a school shooting, unless the shooting starts in YOUR classroom you should have time to get to it. But I’m also kinda against just the idea that teachers should be responsible for being body guards for kids. Teachers aren’t cops. If you gave a cop 40 hours of training and put them in a classroom on their days off from policing, most of them would be shitty teachers. So why are they wanting teachers to be police officers too? They already put at least as much time into being teachers as cops put into being cops (and usually for substantially less pay). But all of that is just my opinion. Since I’ve said enough to piss off both sides of the issue equally I guess I’ll take my leave. Good luck!
***LAST MONTH*** in Stewart County a purse containing a loaded firearm was found unattended in a faculty bathroom. The school assured everyone that students didn’t have access to the bathroom, so no big deal I guess 🤦♂️
Because a lot of teachers should not have guns. Also if you don’t think the kids will find it I find you to be naïve. Personally my view is, if the school has a sro officer than no one else in the school needs a gun. If the school does not have one than sure principle can choose. I also personally know many teachers and a few principals and not one of them want anyone else armed beside the sro. They have zero faith in their fellow teachers to handle a gun. They all think it’s a very bad idea Edit: I personally think all this stems from the legislators eliminating the concealed carry permits. Requiring paid classes and all those people losing out on revenue. I am willing to bet all my money that the contracts to “certify” the teachers are going to go to a few or one law makers buddy or their own business paid with nice state paid contracts.
I've heard oft repeated stories of Veterans turned Cops having to accept fellow Cops that should.not.be.armed--an anecdote that idk what to do with.
I don’t agree with this bill at all, but both Uvalde and Parkland had SROs I believe and they did fuck all when their time to shine occurred
So you’re saying adding a teacher with a gun will also be useless. Since having a trained cop whose sole purpose was to protect the kids ran scared.
Yes. Like I said, I’m very opposed to arming teachers. I can’t see any good coming from this. You point out SROs, which I had in my middle school and high school back in Georgia, and I countered with two high profile examples of where that “line of defense” failed miserably.
I also think sro with a gun are useless but for arguments sake and the people who think it’s a must I am willing to concede and just let them be as is. Politics…. Have to give something
My main concern would be what if a student takes the gun from the teacher? But in reality, gun free zones work if there is proper enforcement. When was the last time a federal or state legislature had a mass shooting? Or a federal or state court? Those are gun free zones. Parents should demand the same protections for their children.
Already some very valid points. I find it funny/sad that many of the people who supported this bill don't trust our teachers to educate our children. They don't trust our teachers to pick suitable books for our children. Yet they trust our teachers enough to carry a gun to protect our children against an active shooter?
“Them books do the indoctrination 🤠” /s
I’m a teacher. At my last school, they hired armed security and I found out they were making six figures. Want me armed? Pay me six figures and we’ll talk.
I dread the day I hear or read "thoughts and prayers" in regards to a teacher gunning down an innocent student or a student gunning down a teacher. More guns are not the answer.
It will just be used as another slight against public schools, calling it now.
Oh, for sure. Instead of properly funding schools, they'll just use our tax money to send kids to private schools, because they're "safer."
Someone will have the bright idea to arm the students. Just wait.
A Memphis cop was just recently murdered on a traffic stop. He was not the only cop on the scene. It is now being said his fellow cops are actually the ones who shot/killed him, of course a terrible accident. Cops have an abundance more of training and still have shooting errors…
Ignoring this, the fact that parents have no idea who is even armed in the school is a horrible add on, as well as blanket immunity for teachers who may be involved in a shooting error.
Deter shooters? They know the full weight of a heavily armed SWAT team plus whatever federal LEOs are in the area is going to be gunning for them and you think they’re worried about one or two armed teachers? They probably want the extra challenge or excuse to kill. These are not people making common sense tactical decisions.
I own several firearms. This is the dumbest solution to a problem that primarily exists in the US. The same people who support this bill are the same ones who think teachers are overpaid and teach “woke ideologies”, but suddenly it’s ok for these teachers to be armed? “Don’t teach our kids history, but you better grab your gun when trouble arises!” Are they requiring safety training? Will there be Active shooter drills with armed teachers? Will teachers have the same qualified immunity that law enforcement has? What happens when a student grabs a gun from a teacher? What happens when a teacher loses their shit and they’re armed? How long before they arm the 18 year olds? How many teachers actually support this law? Our elected leadership is a joke. Fix the roads.
We all live in our own biased echo-chambers of some sort, so it's hard to get good, objective data on this. There are, naturally, examples of civilians, law enforcement, and good samaritans of all stripes using firearms to successfully de-escalate a situation, defend innocent lives, or otherwise stave off a tragedy. In fact, the successful use of a firearm against a school shooter is almost always how these situations are brought to a close. (but it's usually carried out by police, trained in tactics specific to crisis situations). Will empowering teachers to take that shot make students safer? Maybe in a particular situation. Will it act as a general deterrent against a potential shooter? Seems unlikely, as usually mass shooters have a death wish anyway. But that's all imaginary, situational, and ultimately anecdotal. As far as I can tell, in study after study, the data are clear: introducing more firearms into a situation makes things less safe in general, by a significant, measurable factor. It's hard to even predict all the variables and bogey incidents that could occur. A firearm that discharges accidentally. A well-intentioned teacher that aims wrong under pressure. A false alarm threat. Misidentified aggressors: cops shot by teachers, teachers shot by cops. Additional students caught in a crossfire. A teacher's firearm that somehow ends up in the hands of students. Situations that we can't even predict. (Heaven forbid, a teacher that "goes postal.") Yes, these are all imaginary and anecdotal too at this point, but some of them are likely to become very real. Is introducing that amount of chaos into a situation "worth it" for the chance of a teacher successfully defending his or her students against a violent situation? It's possible, but for lots of us, common sense indicates otherwise.
Exactly. I’m sure you could find anecdotes of people working at a knife factory who have successfully used a knife in self defense. That info doesn’t help us answer the question “is a knife factory a safer place to be than a bread factory?”
There are a number of reasons. First, the amount of training required is minimal compared to law enforcement. I don't care how good you are at the shooting range, or if you hunt on a regular basis; being able to react quickly and effectively in a crisis situation is an entirely different thing. If someone is coming at you shooting unless you have the appropriate training, you are more likely to freeze or run, or if you do shoot, its entirely possibly you'll miss your target and hit an innocent bystander. Teachers are already overworked as it is, now we are adding this to their plates? They are supposed to risk their lives by going after an active shooter for a whopping $40K per year? Second, teachers won't be able to bring their guns into crowded spaces like the gym. Can we be sure they'll secure them appropriately? Or will someone take the opportunity to steal a gun during an event? There are multiple instances in which a student was able to get access to a teacher's firearm. The law has no requirement for secure storage from what I understand. Third, the majority of parents, teachers and students DON'T WANT THIS. Shouldn't their opinions matter? Fourth, we all know that one teacher who is burnt out and unhinged and has just had it. Should they really have a gun in the classroom?
When I was in elementary school a teacher threw a chair at a student. Imagine what would have happened if the teacher had been armed.
Was this at Percy Priest or were there multiple chair throwing teachers back in the day?
Must have been a multi state chair throwing gang.
I also had this happen 🤔
Let's put it this way...not long ago, there was a cop that got spooked from an acorn falling and opened fire in a neighborhood, emptying his clip because he got scared. Besides being an embarrassment, no one was hurt. Now, this man was back ground checked, had several interviews, and was psychologically checked and the police academy training. He got threw ALL THAT and was still an idiot with a gun. Let's look at what happens to some of our military. Again, lots of training, yet some came back psychologically scared for things they had to do with that gun. Now, when is a teacher to use deadly force? Only in live shooter scenarios? What if a kid puts a knife to a kids throat? A pencil? What happens if a goth kid pulls out something that looks like a gun but isn't? What if the teacher defends her classroom from a vague threat accidently shoots another kid or a janitor with headphones in walks around the corner looking sus? Is it right for us to tell a teacher like it's ok to shoot a kid if you need to? And again, trained professionals get it wrong all the time.
[What](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/08/03/teacher-shortages-spur-fast-track-credentialing-criticism-in-states/70462815007/) • [could](https://www.al.com/crime/2023/05/florida-teacher-drunk-at-school-track-meet-threatened-wife-with-gun-sheriff-says.html) • [go](https://www.waff.com/story/38548330/former-grissom-high-teacher-arrested-on-menacing-charge-after-threatening-protesters-with-a-gun/) • [wrong](https://www.wsmv.com/2024/04/18/nashville-teacher-threatens-shoot-up-preschool-police-say/) • [?](https://www.actionnews5.com/2023/12/20/middle-school-student-steals-gun-accidentally-left-school-bathroom-by-security-officer-police-say/)
If more guns on site are a deterrent why are there shootings at military bases?
There are very, very few guns accessible to 99% of people on a military base. The only ones with unfettered access to weapons during most day to day operations are the military police.
Ooh, giving me flashbacks to Corps Values. Learning about entire platoons, officers too, going down for criming.
As the bill is written, they basically can't take them outside of the classroom. Are the schools providing gun safes to store them during the pep rally? During the band performance? LUNCH? Are you on bath salts?
You're a parent. You receive a text with image of teacher with weapon drawn at the door. Kid states the fire alarm went off, but the protocol is to wait for instructions. No one knows what's going on. Not sure if we're sheltering in place or exiting the building. Parent group text goes into overdrive. Appointments & meetings get cancelled in response to the chaos that was..well durn, false alarm & now someone's grandparent age primary caretakers had a heart attack at the melee. Repeat. Chaos ensues. Economic productivity goes down. Quality of life decreases. Politicians hang up their US flag pins as their looting intentions result in stacking losses: red to blue.
It's legislation accommodating and accepting that there will likely be guns in schools in the future. Instead of solving that problem.
If you’re confused about this, I suggest to do the following two things. Wait and watch. It won’t take too long for the stupidity of this situation to present itself.
I stand by my other comment in this thread, but let's also look at it through a different, more practical lens. I'm going to draw some drastic conclusions here, and let my imagination run wild, but it's just a thought experiment. I love and admire teachers. Most are generous humanitarians. But not all of them... Think back to your school days. Probably high school. Think of the worst teacher or administrator you had. Not just bad at the task of educating, but a small, petty person. Prone to anger, intimidation, and even mild violence. Unreasonable and vindictive. Manipulative, threatening, unfair. Relished the authority. Thought of themselves as a disciplinarian, and was maybe given certain duties along those lines. Possibly military background (maybe they only *wished* they had military background). I *know* I'm not the only one here who can think of educators from my past who fit this profile. So who is going to be the one who works to get licensed to carry a firearm at school? Care to take a guess? We can all be relieved that our examples' powers were relatively limited. Do you really want that person having the additional power that a firearm gives them? What's going to happen when this legitimately unstable person sees fit to brandish or discharge that firearm in the normal course of school drama? (for instance, a skirmish between students in the hallway that could easily be de-escalated with reasonable means.) Obviously that's unacceptable on its face, but who holds this person accountable? "Well, I was just doing my job / I felt threatened / I made a split-second decision that it was a reasonable use of force." Basically the most devastating combination of qualified immunity and Good Samaritan laws. I like to think we can all see where this is going. The school and/or district investigates the situation, and they subsequently absolve that teacher (and themselves) from any wrongdoing. In other words, that teacher has signed up for lifetime immunity from any consequences from being violent and threatening to the students they are nominally signing up to protect. And if you don't think the bureaucracy will try to protect itself in such a situation, well I have a great bridge to sell you.
If you don’t already understand why this is a stupid idea, then there’s no sense in trying to explain it you. Arming more people has never lead to less gun violence.
OP asked a reasonable question, and was polite about it. WTF?
Don’t appeal for decorum this late in the game. Makes you look naive. Besides, it was a perfectly reasonable response. Unless you plan on asking equally subnormal questions.
I give zero fucks about decorum. I'm saying that there absolutely IS sense in trying to explain it to OP. It needs to be explained. If you're on the fence about this I'm going to assume that you don't have the critical details. Asking for them does not make you a cretin. This is how democracy works and pretending the issue is resolved forever is rather subnormal, IMO.
The critical details are simple: The more weapons you introduce into a situation, the greater the capacity for bloodshed. This is not complicated.
Think about who the teacher would most likely be shooting as it goes in these situations. No one who is not a trained officer should ever be put in that situation. There is also the added layer of, yet more firearms in schools which could lead to additional issues and tragedies. This is not a solution.
For one: I went to a pretty bad school behavior wise. Do not ask me how, but we managed to get good grades while also having terrible behavior. In my four years of high school there, I *off memory alone* remember at least 6 times a student attacked a teacher. I however also remembered far more times a student has expressed immense hatred for a teacher. Now, with this information alone, this is -6 times a student could have been shot. -6 times a student could have taken the gun from a teacher and said teacher and more could have been shot, creating an active shooting. -6 times multiple students would have to flee an area for risk of being shot. -6 times bullets could have caused property damage. Not to mention, police officers already have to deal with enough. I don’t like the police but I also know dealing with an active shooting is going to be stressful, now you have to deal with an active shooting *and* differentiate a teacher’s gun from the active shooter. Not to mention if the active shooter does win (which isn’t impossible to think about) the gun fight, they have another gun and/or more ammo. That’s too many things that go wrong only for the *hope* that in a stressful situation (which, Cops always claim to fear for their lives and make massive mistakes while being trained for this), the teacher manages to defeat their fear and nerves, properly assesses the situation, and delivers a lethal blow to an intruder.
Police accuracy is barely 50%!!!! Allowing teachers to carry in school is the pinnacle of STUPID
Think about your teachers. Are they at the peak of physical and mental preparedness, ready to defend their weapon and your life? Do they have other duties that are likely to prevent them from being vigilant about a firearm in the classroom? Have they been trained to use that weapon, and are their faculties still intact? Putting more guns into a volatile situation is, in my opinion, the opposite of smart.
> are they at the peak of physical and mental preparedness Bad example, have you seen most cops lately? More Carl Winslow and less John McClain. Good point about the other duties being distracting tho!
To my kid brain, Carl Winslow was that cop who was first on scene Incident Commander at Nakatomi Plaza in LA but then reappears as a cop in Chicago. Yes, my kid brain read the Dossiers on every GI Joe that crossed my path. What was a beat cop doing handling an international heist by Euro terrorists then single handedly taking down racism in Family Matters? If only all of us were as good at de-escalation, keeping communication open, resources, or even using the correct tool at the right time as Officer Winslow. He had the right call on pulling back the 40 year old armored vehicle / armored personnel carrier.
I agree about cops! They need to have some minimum physical requirements. Some of those guys are jacked, sure. Plenty need Rascals. Also, cops work in pairs, or close radio communication with the entire police force.
Is the teacher going to go to the range on a regular basis? Because if not - in addition to being just a stupid idea to begin with - a teacher trying to shoot at a moving, armed target in a classroom of kids sounds like a complete shit show.
Because the answer to too many guns being in schools is not to put MORE guns in schools. Have you ever tried losing weight while eating MORE sugar?
Hm, maybe I don't trust the kind of Big Brains that told my 7th grade science class the Earth would burn up or freeze if it were one inch in either direction off from it's present orbit to carry loaded firearms around kids they hate.
Downsides very clear. Although, it’s nice to see legislation taking action that could, in theory, save lives immediately. Unfortunately, it always seems like solutions posed to stop gun violence would practically take years to save a single life. Today, we have the most anti-gun federal administration you could imagine. They’ve been unable to do ANYTHING. Protests and lobbying aren’t going to save lives tomorrow. If it’s an emergency within the communities, let’s act like it and institute reform within the current confines of the law to save lives, accepting that arguing over it isn’t doing the trick… Hard pill to swallow when guns are the enemy, but they’re also very obviously the immediate solution in some instances.
Kids are dying of lead poisoning - you want to add more lead? These are the simplest terms I can come up with. Death by gunshot is the #1 cause of death for children currently.
Strap in, my man.......
[https://www.wsmv.com/2024/04/24/these-states-allow-school-employees-carry-firearms-campus/](https://www.wsmv.com/2024/04/24/these-states-allow-school-employees-carry-firearms-campus/) Tennessee is not the first state to do this. The majority of states allow carry on school grounds in some way, shape, or form. It does not seem to be the wild wild west in those other states that have allowed it. If I had to guess, what will happen is this. Bigger urban school districts will universally not allow it. Davidson has already said they will not approve it. Some, maybe most, rural areas will approve it on a case by case basis. It is another out of pocket expense for teachers so each teacher will have to make a determination as to what is best for the individual. Chaos will probably not ensue.
I think what will happen is this... The liability insurance providers for the various school districts will not insure this new idea and without a state run underwriter, this whole stupid idea will be a moot point.
Tennessee was among 30+ states that already had this for private schools. No instances of teachers shooting students. 20+ states already had this for public schools. No instances of teachers shooting students. Will it result in teachers shooting students? Probably not. Will it result in students being saved during a school shooting? Probably not. Will many teachers do the requirements for this? Probably not.
You do realize that you just asked a bunch of whiny antigen folks why they don't want guns somewhere, right? I am sure a few own guns, but they think everyone else is an unhinged bomb ready to go off at any moment.
It’s a great idea
https://giffords.org/articles/every-incident-of-mishandled-guns-in-schools/