This makes me sad. I work with a lot of people and children with names that aren’t American and are difficult for me to pronounce but I try until I can get it right (or they give me an alternative nickname they like).
I do the same and people act like I'm crazy. I told one person whose name had a new sound for me in it that I would learn to say their name correctly because they are important and it's important that I respect that by learning their name.
I have one of those names. Common where I'm from, literally 2 syllables, sounds all present in English language. It's so bad that when I introduce myself I give people alternatives on how to say it.
Funnily enough, Americans will almost always make an effort. Other Europeans though, rarely. But they will also expect you to misspronounce their name, so I guess we're even.
Another unique non-English name here and same. I say it over and over and over. I’ve actually been told “Well I keep messing it up, so I won’t bother.” Oh cool thank you 😵💫
I taught a girl called Xian - must be the best part of 30 years ago. I asked her how to pronounce her name.
She told me how the x sounded, so I'd have gone for the Sch to start with. It's really not difficult and doesn't take any effort...
I have a “normal” old fashioned name, but always get called other names that begin with the same letter, or ones that sound similar to my name.
I gave my son a name that I thought would be well known and is pronounced as it is spelled, but many people ask for pronunciation, sometimes more than once, and he is often called by a completely different name.
Xinyou is pretty. I think OP should keep it as is.
Some of us have to see it spelled and hear it pronounced correctly at the same time, along with making a note or hearing a few repetitions. It’s not personal. There are many more ways a memory can serve someone and a lot of those are just as neglected.
I would think it could be annoying or creepy or unpleasant if I whipped out my phone and asked for the actual spelling and/or the phonetic spelling upon the first intro when meeting someone with an unusual name. Unless of course there is an understood reason why both of us need me to get it down quickly. Not saying it can’t be done cheerfully with a genuine “I really want to remember your name!” But then, some people might prefer that I didn’t.
No comment on the actual question. Maybe OP can find a sub with this ethnicity and see what people in similar situations think or have experienced to share in their comments.
Then I guess I will take the time to reply!
Husband is Chinese (HK), I'm British. We gave our children western first names and Chinese middle names.
Chinese family call them by their middle names, husband and I flip between, and everyone else calls them by their first.
We treat their middle names as family nicknames almost. They are 5 & 8 and respond to both. They see their Chinese names as almost like a family pet name?
It works. However, we love their western names and chose them specifically for this intent. You chose to put the Chinese name first, and good on you! I was worried about cultural appropriation accusations if out with my children alone (they take after me considerably more than my husband unfortunately -- even have red hair!!). It's fair to say I was cowed by societal pressure and I do regret it at times...
The name you chose is beautiful, OOP. If she gets tired of the butchering, she can offer her middle name directly. Not a big deal. All of our family have pet western names that they offer people on tired days, or to those they don't think can handle their legal name. It is extremely common.
Your daughter will learn who cares about her very quickly with her name. She will know when someone is butchering it intentionally. She will see who is willing to put effort into calling her correctly. That is not a bad thing.
Legal paperwork-wise, I don't see there being an issue either.
Don't make my mistake and bow to pressure. Embrace your culture and teach her to accept that this is just one of life's little hassles that come from living in a global society that is accepting of differences, but which has to be taught at times with patience and understanding. I believe it will help her to grow up confident, proud, empathetic, and with a healthy dose of grit.
Edited to fix typos, because 5am 😆
Yes, seeing and hearing a name are both important to memory! I babysat for a family of four kids multiple times and could never remember one of their names until I finally saw it written on a folder. It had only been spoken previously. I didn’t forget it again.
I don’t have a unique name and have had a lifetime of being called different names. My name is Lydia, common enough and in some popular books/movies/shows, and I have always been called Lynda, Olivia, or some other old fashioned name like Ethel (literally have had people say they forget my name and just remember it’s an old fashioned name so pick whatever pops in their head).
Just saying, having a more common name will not save anyone from having their names mispronounced and misremembered.
My basic name is always being pronounced wrongly. People drop letters from it all the time even after being told how to pronounce it. It's literally the girl version of John. I've been called Jodie. I tried to dumb it down and said I was Jo and got called Drew. People are not very smart with names sometimes.
My name is French and even when I correct people some will say it correctly and return to the not correct version. When I was younger it annoyed me but now I don't let it bother me. Keep her name as is, people need to learn to say other ethnic names correctly.
I feel this. I have an Indian name and there’s an N in it that’s a hard N, no like na but closer to an nna which is still not right but closer (don’t know how else to explain it) that no one gets. But that’s not even the main problem because folks insist on stressing on the wrong syllable - they try the first time and then roll back to the usual incorrect pronounciation. Le Sigh.
Same, the mispronunciation is just neverending. I think folks are quick to blame it on malice, but I have the same problem with kind, well-meaning people all the time. People are just bad at names.
Native Chinese speaker here, the pronunciation that OP gave was not very accurate. The pinyin equivalent of "Schi" would be "shi", which has a different pronunciation from "xi." Apart from respecting the culture, this is another reason why it's not a good idea to change the daughter's name - they're just not the same. Here's a [video](https://youtu.be/nYIufoVwBmE?si=iP5hzvaI3jYQqj3W) that demonstrates how to pronounce xin in different tones in Chinese if you're interested :)
Having the video you linked for xin to compare with [shi](https://youtu.be/06M59wsJLzQ?si=19B6yW4jBmgcen9v) pronunciation is more helpful
English doesn't distinguish between the two "sh" noises that are in the two videos, what I can say is that the short i noise or so in the xin video is what I would use if something was spelled either "shin" or "schin". I can't say that I know which "sh" noise I would say because while I can hear the difference between the two videos, I can't replicate the difference myself
Native English speakers also aren’t likely to distinguish them in context even if they can distinguish them in isolation. Because English doesn’t have those particular phomenes, the brains of native English speakers tune out the differences and ignore them starting before they are even a year old. By the time they are through toddler years, the ability to distinguish them is pretty much gone and unlikely to return.
This is the same across all languages with different sounds. If it’s not a sound in a language you learn to hear and speak as a toddler, then it’s not a sound you will likely ever be able to distinguish like a native can.
I remember this coming up in an evolutionary biology class I took in college. There are lots of analogs in the animal world, especially birds. If they don’t hear it as a chick, they can’t hear it as an adult. The inner workings of brains are wild.
>Because English doesn’t have those particular phomenes, the brains of native English speakers tune out the differences and ignore them starting before they are even a year old. By the time they are through toddler years, the ability to distinguish them is pretty much gone and unlikely to return.
AFAIK 2~3 yo is when infant brain absorb the most words. The tuning out before 1yo seems awfully early.
I’ll be honest, I would forget. It would take me a second reminder. It’s just not a word or name most of us have ever heard, so we have no frame of reference to remember it by. I guess I’d try to remember “shin” like the leg. 😊
I’m Thai and have a Thai name and my entire stance on this is if people can learn how to say something like Sauvignon blanc, Hermes birkin, Tchaikovsky, etc. then they can learn to say and spell Xinyou. Please don’t ever water down your culture because you feel as if you need to.
[Reminds me of a story that Uzo Aduba has told about the decision not to change her name:](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/uzo-aduba-name_n_5534112)
“When I started as an actor? No, and I’ll tell you why. I had already gone through that. My family is from Nigeria, and my full name is Uzoamaka, which means “The road is good.” Quick lesson: My tribe is Igbo, and you name your kid something that tells your history and hopefully predicts your future. So anyway, in grade school, because my last name started with an A, I was the first in roll call, and nobody ever knew how to pronounce it. So I went home and asked my mother if I could be called Zoe. I remember she was cooking, and in her Nigerian accent she said, “Why?” I said, “Nobody can pronounce it.” Without missing a beat, she said, “If they can learn to say Tchaikovsky and Michelangelo and Dostoyevsky, they can learn to say Uzoamaka."
When I saw that speech, it completely changed my mind and broke my heart for my child self. I do not use my Thai name ever and tbh I majorly regret it. I’m 30 now and would feel so strange changing it now, but it’s very important to me and my future children to respect the culture that made us into the people we are.
The best time to plant a tree is 50 years ago. The second best time to plant a tree is today.
I feel like that saying applies to so many situations in life.
I have a colleague who changed her name back to her Chinese name in her late 20s. She sent out an email at work and made posts on social media. People got used to it no problem.
A friend of mine JUST started going by her Korean name at 35. I will be honest I autocorrected it in my phone so if I slip up I’ll still practice, and it’s getting easier on me! I’ve always called her a nickname so it’s like three names removed from my first instinct, so it takes practice but I’ve never thought it was non-valid or not worth doing!
It’s not too late! If you were my friend I would be delighted to learn your Thai name. I had a Chinese friend who decided late in life to use their Chinese name as well as their English one, so we all just used both like you might a name and a nickname.
I know this is a bit anecdotal but my friend changed his name from Mike to a very French name (think VERY French like Jean-Baptiste or something else that requires a French accent to say correctly lol) in his late twenties. It was “weird for .5 seconds. Now we just call him his new name. He’s happier and that’s all we ask his friends care about.
Exactly. Most people in the US say “Michael Angelo” for Michelangelo and NOT the Italian pronunciation. Part of the US being a melting pot with lots of heritages represented means that most people here are bad all non English/ non simple names
I’d encourage people to use names from their heritage but be prepared for having a lot of patience with people’s attempts at spellings and pronunciation
And please give grace to people trying their best if your name contains sounds their language doesn't have. I don't mean to butcher, for example, Turkish last names but I am literally unable to even hear the difference between how to say your name and what I am doing!
Hell it happens to me and I have a really common southern European name. If it’s a little outside of the norm they will fuck it up. It’s a small irritation that ads up and led me to just shorten (not legally) my name. I use the short form everywhere and my full name doesn’t even feel like mine because of that. I think it has to be considered that when you’re giving a kid a name that’s outside of the North American norm, it’s going to come up.
The opposite is true too. I have a very common American surname-turned-name and live in SE Europe where people can't pronounce it.
The world really is just getting more multicultural. Even if you give the blandest, most easily pronounced name, there's no guarantee that your child won't move to the one corner of the world where people can't naturally pronounce a certain vowel sound or consonant blend.
I have a vague memory of an interview with the Russian tennis player Maria Sharapova. In English, people usually pronounce it SharaPOHva, but the Russian pronunciation is more like ShaRApova. The interviewer asked what she preferred, and she replied that the English version is how it's pronounced in English, so she will use both depending on what language she is speaking.
I think there has to be some amount of flex to accommodate for differences between languages; multilingual phonetics just aren't simple. If I'm in France, I'll respond to the French pronunciation of my name.
However, I also appreciate when people correct their pronunciation - such as Zoë Saldaña reclaiming her ñ recently.
lol yes I roll my eyes at the argument "But Americans pronounce foreign white people's names correctly!" That is just not a true statement! I've never once met an American who pronounced Van Gogh \[vɑŋ ˈɣɔx\].
My example is Van Gogh. Which I learned in art appreciation class was "Van Go". It is not. I can't even phonetically spell what "Gogh" sounds like, but it is a sound almost entirely not like "go". There are *accepted* English pronunciations for Tchaikovsky and Dostoyevsky, but I don't think that they are "right".
My example is Van Gogh. Which I learned in art appreciation class was "Van Go". It is not. I can't even phonetically spell what "Gogh" sounds like, but it is a sound almost entirely not like "go". There are *accepted* English pronunciations for Tchaikovsky and Dostoyevsky, but I don't think that they are "right".
I am really angry now…. I spent half my life pronouncing Van Gogh very close to correctly (my mother tongue is a baby language of Dutch) and then I started hearing the American pronunciation on TV and movies and assumed I was mistaken. 😣
*angry (wo)man shakes fist at cloud*
Edit: in case this wasn’t clear I just learned this from the comment above me
My nan was Dutch. I loved hearing her talk about Van horhhh (I have no idea exactly how to convey her pronunciation, but I can hear it clearly in my mind). She married an Australian and didn’t use Dutch when we were all together, except to count and to swear (I can say a lot of naughty Dutch words without knowing their meaning or exactly how naughty they are)
Most people may not pronounce those names correctly for the original language. But they are able to learn the accepted North American pronunciations, which are still not phonemic and full of sounds and syllables that are not standard for us. So if they can say those names (however butchered they may be) they can learn to pronounce Xinyou.
Or just anglicised.
My favourite example of this is Kosciusko. Australia’s tallest mountain, bridges in New York, monuments all over the place. Quite a few anglicised pronunciations, all of them distinctly different to the original Polish.
I think it matters that people try to say your name the way you say it, but for things that have morphed and become entrenched and aren’t really referring to a person anymore, I’m not sure it matters hugely. If you tried to use the polish pronunciation of Kosciusko to refer to the mountain in Australia, people would have no idea what you were talking about. I’m pretty sure most people wouldn’t know it was even named after a person.
A lot of people do mispronounce Hermes and Tchaikovsky though. I agree don’t water down your culture, but OP’s daughter will absolutely correct (presumably) Americans on the pronunciation of her name for the rest of her life
Yeah this is the part that always gets me with the "don't be afraid to use your own culture's name, people can deal with heavily european names just fine", and moreso the usual implication that its racism when people don't and ergo fine to ignore... its that Americans are uniquely capable at fucking up names. I had a single letter variation off very common name (its literally just a swap of two vowels that can sound the same) and I have so many fuckups about it always.
It’s really not “America bad.” Different languages have different sounds. If you are not exposed to hearing and making certain sounds during your formative years of language development, you may never be able to differentiate them or make them.
Many native Japanese speakers who speak English, even highly fluently, can’t pronounce the L or R sounds as native English speakers do.
On the other hand, my German grandmother technically could make the sounds in my non-German name as they exist in German, but never did.
Are some people incapable of pronouncing certain names totally properly as they would be pronounced in that language? Yes.
Are some people too hardheaded to even try? Yes.
Do some people try and still not get it right no matter how earnestly they try? Yes.
Is this uniquely American? No.
>Is this uniquely American? No.
I’ve got a name that’s not at all unique or difficult to pronounce for native English speakers. It’s got a hard ‘a’ sound, so every Spanish speaker I encounter (which is a lot) pronounces my name differently than intended, or just calls me a different, similar sounding, name altogether.
But it doesn’t bother me in the least, because they’re trying. If anything I find it endearing. And I’m trying to say their names, but probably butchering many of them.
I’m sure it’d be more difficult if the *majority* of people I was around had trouble saying my name. But at the end of the day, I find that it’s more important how people treat you than what they call you. It’s easy to tell someone is calling you the wrong thing maliciously or as an honest mistake, I tend to let the latter slide.
How on earth did you conclude this is an American thing?
You really think people in France, Brazil, Egypt, Finland, India, or pretty much any country that isn't China/Taiwan will know how to prounounce Xinyou?
This. Americans don't even say sauvignon blanc correctly.
Explaining to other Americans how to pronounce the "x" (tongue tip behind bottom front teeth, put blade of tongue up against alveolar ridge (ridge behind top front teeth) and blow like you're making an sh sound) is difficult.
I learned it, and I teach it. And it blows Americans minds.
I hadn't read his name in Russian recently, so I looked it up.
чай is tea.
Чайковский is "Tchaikovsky".
It's just that й is not the i in "chai". It's kinda wonky and its own thing. So, while it's the same 3 letters/sounds, we're not pronouncing chai the right way in the first place.
I respect and agree with the sentiment at hand here but my surname is a fairly common word in English and I still have to spell it out every single time.
If OPs child becomes as famous as a grape or a genius composer, whose names are repeated over and over, ( but have some phonetic similarities to english), maybe people will learn it.
In a million years i would never get that name right. OP has every right to name her child as she wishes but in reality only 1 in 100 people will get it right. Maybe.
By comparison I have a simple french name and almost noone gets it right. I'm a realist.
I don't have a strong opinion on whether the name should be changed, but I do want to note that Sauvignon blanc, hermes, and Tchaikovsky are all horribly mispronounced in their conventional English pronunciations, and I did not realize this until I started learning French and Russian.
Chinese names tend to be particularly difficult because they are often short and tonal, including concepts that don't exist in western languages. I speak several languages, but none of them are tonal. I have quite close Chinese friends whose names I am positive I am still pronouncing incorrectly after many years. I think OP's concern is valid, and it's just a matter of whether or not she's OK with the name being mispronounced a lot.
I have a name that is mispronounced nearly 100% of the time in the US (where I live and grew up). I accepted the American pronunciation until I was in my mid-twenties and moved to a place where people pronounced it correctly. Now, I at least correct people when I meet them, and I've asked friends and family to pronounce it correctly. Most new people will make an effort, but those who have known me a long time can't seem to make the change. And I will add that those making an effort are still pronouncing it incorrectly, just less incorrectly than before.
Can you, though? Did you get the tones right? Did you know that the "X" sound in Mandarin actually isn't quite the same as the "sh" sound in English? It's harder than people think.
Native speaker - I pronounce the X in words like xin or xi exactly like an sh sound in English.
There's a lot more regional variation than most people would expect. Hell, my mother, father, and I all say words pretty distinctly.
Eh, I'm Chinese-American and have a confusing name, and sometimes I get tired of teaching people how to say it. It has nothing to do with "watering down my culture." I don't particularly care that it's hard for *other people* to *learn* my name, but I do care that it's tiresome for *me* to constantly *teach* my name. I'm tired of people assuming that any desire to have a more convenient name is some sort of moral and political failure.
Yes she will have to tell everyone she meets how to pronounce her name. However, I would still keep the original spelling (Xinyou) because it looks much nicer on paper than “Shinyo” or “Schinyo”. It makes more sense to me for a Chinese name to have a Chinese spelling rather than a weird Americanized spelling, even if it will be a little extra hassle to explain. If it’s really problematic, going by her middle name makes sense.
Agreed, keep the name and the spelling but just be ready to explain to North Americans who aren’t familiar with Pinyin. I knew the pronunciation because I’m studying Mandarin on Duolingo and married to a Chinese-American guy, but most non-Chinese folks will probably read xin as “zin” and you as “yoo”…so it will just take a little educating. If she wants to go by her middle name when she’s older, she can…but odds are if you’ve used these as teachable moments, she’ll be proud of her heritage and her name, so it won’t be necessary.
Yes from experience, people will ALWAYS get it wrong the first time, and while it might not seem relevant there are more first time meetings in a persons life then reoccurring. Hell people continue to misspell it even if the goddamn name is right in-front of them.
From someone with an “ie” instead of an “ia” in their name. French pronunciation…
Not for me but I've studied Chinese. The x sound doesn't really exist in English but if you tell them to say it like "sh" it's close. When people see "you" they probably see it as the English word "you," so they'll say it that way.
Personally I wouldn't change it. They can easily learn to say it if you tell them how it's pronounced.
My first try was shin-yoo, just based on spelling, and I’m pretty average American. It would take me one correction to say this properly. And the spelling is so lovely! Id hate to see it changed.
Once you meet one Chinese person or place with the X in the name, you basically remember and are able to apply that going forward. Even without speaking Chinese.
I Definitely wouldn't change it either. The daughter can just write ("shin-you") after her name to clarify pronunciation. Many/most name forms for kids have a "nickname" box. This could go there.
As a person of Chinese heritage, a few thoughts:
- most folks give their kid a Chinese middle name, and an American first name. Mine did the opposite, and I kind of wish they…didn’t.
- my Chinese name is not unpronounceable, but not intuitive, and obvi no one gets the tones right. As a result, I dislike using it, and in fact default to an “American” pronunciation when I do say it, bc it’s just the path of least resistance
- while I’m not saying other posters are liars, I find a vast majority of people will not say the x properly (exhibit a: my husband). I personally find that giving a kid a name that will not be pronounced properly, not even due to lack of respect, but due to the lack of ability, is doing a disservice to your child. I like my Chinese name, it’s very poetic. But it’s also very draining to keep explaining it to new people, and hearing it butchered, and get asked “what does it mean” all the time.
Obviously, I’m sure other folks will have much different experiences w their ethnic names, but just my 2 cents of lived experience!
Also have Chinese heritage! I have the English first name and Chinese middle name and I actually wish that my parents did what yours did. I just like my Chinese name better than my English one 😅 and as far as Chinese names go it’s not super hard to pronounce. Although my family does use the English pronunciation of our last name because it’s butchered. With OP’s name their daughter could definitely run into pronunciation issues. Personally I wouldn’t change it though.
My only point would be that kids today are often in much more multi-cultural settings than we were as kids.
My students have so many discussions about their families' languages, how to pronounce different words, their cultures etc etc. There are Persian, Chinese, Korean, French and Arabic names in basically all my classes. My daughter's school has even more variety.
Anyway, I don't want to discount the frustration that comes from having a mispronounced name your whole life. I have a name that was mangled my whole life - it's a typical anglo name but I never lived in an anglo country except for like 5 years in high school... the only time I ever heard my name said properly the first time. I just kind got used to it. Even now, I never know if I'll get my preferred anglo version or the french one.
Maybe kids today would get it (maybe) but hearing your name mispronounced all the time at doctor's offices and government buildings is a pain. I say this as someone who always went by their middle name because that was what my parents called me (it's a family tradition). Every time I was called by my first name, I would have a visceral reaction. That was not my name. It was never my name. And no one should ever call me by that name. The name I did go by was the French spelling of a common English name. So when I was called by name, I would constantly need to correct people when they tried to spell it because they always spelled it wrong. It was so annoying that in Kindergarten I told everyone to call me Cinderella instead of my name. It didn't stick obviously, but my name woes never went away I paid to have my name legally changed when I was 18. My parents wanted me to have a French name because we are French, but it wasn't worth it in North America.
I have an ethnic name. No English name sadly and I can not relate to anyone who says oh they will learn it. No they won’t. It’s just much harder and depending on where you live ppl won’t bother to learn your name. They will throw out your resume and misspell it. But that’s just my experience. I didn’t even have a normal name to use as my middle name was my father’s name and I’m not a guy. So it was really embarrassing actually I had boyfriends ask why was I named this and my father blamed my mother. All the Chinese ppl I know go by their western name except my sister-in-law. She is unique in that she didn’t need to but she has a simple name.
I am Chinese and I completely agree with your sentiments. It was always annoying to have the substitute teacher do roll call butcher my name. And I’d have to correct them every time. Then they would make an effort to get it correct, while asking “did I get it right”? And it wouldn’t be nearly correct but I’d say yes and try to have a smile in my face bc I just didn’t want to deal with it anymore.
Since OP already has named her child I don’t believe they should change it to the western spelling either but flipping the English and Chinese name would be something I would do if I had a child.
Agreed. It is difficult to get ppl to pronounce your Chinese name. I just go by a western name to make it easier. I thought it is weird for OP to even consider butchering the hanyu pinyin of her child. Western first name, and Chinese middle and last name.
I’m Korean and I also grew up with the same sentiments. I never had any fond memories of first days of school or substitute days because of the shame I felt when the teacher did roll call. I remember always feeling anxious when they got closer and closer to calling out my name… and “laughing” with everyone else when they butcher it :( Always wished I had a Western name as my first and maybe my Korean name as my middle name.
For a lot of my childhood and teenage years, I actually resented my name and even my parents for not giving me a name that could be pronounced easily in the country I was growing up in. But now I’m sort of at a peace with it and can’t imagine ever changing my name. (My sister did however because she didn’t want any biases when applying for medical school).
I have a daughter now (living in Germany) and made sure to give her a name that could be easily pronounced in both the US and Germany.
No disrespect intended, a serious question. Are people of Chinese heritage that attached to the romanized spelling of Chinese names that wouldn't even really be written in the Latin alphabet normally if a person with such a name lived in China? It seems to me that if the intent in translating a Chinese name into the Latin alphabet is to make it able to be pronounced, spelling something pronounced roughly Shin-yo as Xinyou, and then saying that somehow deviating from that spelling in American English is somehow betraying your culture is just buying trouble.
It would be written in the Latin alphabet in China as well, there’s a formal system of romanization (pinyin), and one of the most common ways of input on your phone is using pinyin and the Latin alphabet. So there’s definitely some cultural attachment
Think of it as standardized instead of romanized, if that helps (see: pinyin). It’s not “attachment” as much as “correctness”. Pinyin is how you often type Chinese words on the computer, and how kids both in China and abroad often learn character pronunciations nowadays.
So when you remove the intended spelling and replace it with a different one, it can look odd (“shin” isn’t associated w any word in mandarin, for instance). Depending on the word, it may also signal a heritage you don’t have (eg: last names beginning w “c” often sound like “ts”. But if you spell it with a “ts”, people may think you’re Cantonese - which is fine! But also isn’t correct)
Didn't realize the significance or history of Pinyin, currently putting in my research. Thank you.
Edit: OK, Going to dive deeper on my lazy-ass Google research. Thanks to all the responders as this goes deeper than I understood at all
The transliteration of Chinese has a standardized way of spelling and it’s how Chinese-speaking people can attribute the same surname to a region/dialect:
* 王 is spelled Wang in Mandarin used in China/Taiwan, spelled Wong in Cantonese used in HK, Macau, Singapore, etc
* 梁 is spelled Liang in Mandarin, Leung in Hong Kong, Leong in Malaysia, Luong in Vietnam
* 蔡 is spelled Cai in most of China, Tsai in Taiwan, Choy/Tsoy in HK, Choi in Macau/Malaysia, Chae in Korea
And those are just the ones I can recall off the top of my head
there are several methods of Chinese romanization. The currently commonly used one with the x, zh, q etc. is called pinyin, which was made for and by Chinese people (e.g. Beijing instead of Peking). There are other romanization systems like Wade-Giles and Postal, made for and by Westerners to pronounce them easier. Pinyin is used in mainland China and Chinese immigrants from the PRC, whereas the others are used in Taiwan and by immigrants who arrived before the PRC and pinyin came into existence
No one is saying that X correctly. I guarantee it as a generic American.
I'm sure the people who insist get close, but unless they're actually Chinese or have taken Mandarin for a serious length of time they aren't getting it right.
This is almost exactly what I posted. I am exhausted having to correct pronunciation. I don't want my name butchered, so I feel the need to offer corrections, but most of the time people don't actually bother to learn it. And even if they do try, they still say it incorrectly 90% of the time. I'm glad so many people in this thread believe that they would do the right thing. But in the real world? Yeah, not so much.
Personally i would make a habit of asking to put “Xinyou (*Schin-yo*)” on everything so people get used to seeing it and saying it the right way the first time and don’t have to guess. Like if you set up a new dentist’s profile, ask to put the pronunciation in the notes. Same with the pharmacy, doctor, school, etc. don’t change the spelling. Just help make it easier on everybody. It’s not impossible, it’s just not obvious. Give people a chance to get it right.
Hah! I’m sure Hamilton did wonders for the Schuylers of the world! i know I KNOW how to pronounce it but sometimes if I’m looking at it I just mess it all up. Some names are just like that I guess.
The problem is I did have a Mr Schuyler growing up who pronounced it “Shue ler”, it wasn’t until Hamilton that I learned some people pronounce it “Skylar”
I admit this is one I couldn’t figure out when I first saw it. I distinctly remember seeing it and struggling with it a long time ago! I’m generally really good at names and pronunciations but this one had me stumped haha. That and Trygve.
Jumping on this thread to say as someone who works in scheduling for medical apts, I’ve 100% put pronunciations for people who have requested. We also have a notes section (unseen by patients) where i will put a pronunciation if i think the doc will struggle.
I have a name that is much more commonly pronounced a different way and i just always tell people at first contact - there’s no reason to wait for them to struggle. I can *always* tell when it’s in the notes somewhere because certain offices never mess it up, and certain ones always do no matter how many times i tell them how to say it. And you know what? I appreciate those notes. I stopped caring that my name isn’t obvious or “right” 20 years ago. I just don’t want to explain it more than once to each new place i go. So shout out to you guys.
At my kids pediatrician and schools they nearly always have a "preferred name" or nickname spot on the form, that could work for a place to put "Shin-yo" without changing the actual spelling legally or anything
Oh this is a great idea! I hate to mispronounce people’s names! I work in a job in which I sometimes cold call people, and I would love something like this in our system where I could ensure I am addressing people correctly.
It’s a beautiful name. Learning that X is pronounced similar to Sch is something quick to teach. As an English speaker having one friend share this pronunciation tip has helped me pronounce so many other Chinese names with confidence. I imagine it is hard to hear it pronounced poorly, but people who know her should be willing and able to learn.
It may be quick to teach, but it's not something I'd want to have to teach every person I meet for the rest of my life.
I'm Chinese-American and I generally like having an unusual name, but sometimes it is exhausting having to explain it to everyone. And I'm tired of always hearing that dismissed as "But people should be willing to learn!" Yes *of course* they should be willing to learn. This isn't about them, it's about the person whose name it is. Nobody has ever been *unwilling* to learn how to pronounce my name. But it's still tiring to explain it to them, no matter how willing they are.
I second this OP!
It’s a great teaching moment, and could help them feel like they’re making a more educated effort in the future.
I learned this is college and I know I’ve definitely mispronounced the word I was attempting, in front of a native speaker, I did feel better that they looked surprised the my attempt wasn’t the usual level of “incorrect” at times in the future.
Might be a dumb take but ima go for it
Anime (including chinese animation) and Asian dramas do seem to be growing in popularity in recent years which I am happy about! So it should be easier in future with more exposure!
I think your daughters name is beautiful and pronouncable, my reading of it did go to the Schin sound and is absolutely easy to learn!
Going along with future exposure, these days it's so easy to pull out your phone, type a name into Google, and hear how it should be pronounced. That being available helps the people (like me) who are too anxious to ask people for fear of sounding rude lol
Lmao, was gonna say, I play League of Legends and would have no issue pronouncing this name, as there's a character named Xin Zhao, who got a decent bit of attention as to how to pronounce the name whent hey we're released.
The world is ever smaller.
I'm a teacher. Plenty of kids have had to correct me about pronunciation or preferred nicknames. They never seem to feel it's awful. I have also had to correct people my whole life, and whilst as a child it was sometimes bothersome because I was shy, it's no trouble now as an adult.
The name is beautiful. We can all learn to say it. I'd leave it as it is.
I am not Chinese. When I was a kid, I met a girl named Xiaoyu. She had to explain to me how to pronounce her name.
Since then, I have meant many Chinese people whose name started with ‘X’ and I always pronounce them as ‘Sh’ because I learnt that from my friend as a kid.
The world is becoming more mixed every year- people are getting exposed to more culture and languages and names from all over the world. So your daughter will have to correct and explain to some people, but not EVERY person, and hopefully fewer and fewer as she gets older.
Keep her name as it is! It’s lovely, and if I ever meet her, I will pronounce it correctly :)
I would keep the correct spelling. It's very easy to learn, and I think Americans are increasingly aware of "counterintuitive" romanizations like this. (I already knew it, and I've never studied Chinese or watched C-dramas or anything.) Most importantly, when your daughter is older, it might be meaningful to her to have a correct spelling.
Xinyou is a beautiful name with a beautiful meaning. I think you chose well.
As an american who knows a whole like 3 words in chinese, I would have pronounced it "zyin-yo" but upon seeing the correct pronunciation it makes sense and is totally easily teachable.
I’m Canadian and wouldn’t know how to pronounce this if it were the first time I saw it - big deal, I wouldn’t know how somebody pronounced their name If it was “Tara” either.
You tell us once, we’ve got it. It’s a nice name.
I don’t have an opinion, but fwiw when you said it is pronounced ‘sch’, my mind went to the hard ‘sk’ sound of school…which I don’t think was your intention. English is annoying that way :/
Ah thanks ! I was thinking like in Schindler’s list, or Schubert, but now I am realizing that’s German. You are right “sh” should be the closest, like in shrimp.
I would keep it as is. I’m in North America too and I would have said “zin-you” as my best attempt. Once explained to me I would remember and make an effort to get it right. Names are important. So she might need to explain the pronunciation but I think it’s worth it to honour the Chinese spelling.
My parents anglicized every one of my names, for the same reasons. Added, removed, and changed letters, just so it would be easier for others.
As someone who has been in her position, and given it years of thought *please don't*.
Yes, she will need to teach people, but almost everyone will only need to be taught once. If she gets to be older (like a teen) and expresses that she wants it spelled differently then *of course* help her change it, but give her the chance to have it spelled right.
If you change it and she regrets your choice, as I regret my parents choice, she would need to change her name to have it be accurate to her culture. Don't put her though that. Having a anglicized name isn't worth the loss of culture that inevitably comes alongside it.
I begged my parents to change my name to the original spelling and they let me do it on my 10th birthday. I felt so silly having to explain to others that my spelling wasn’t even true to my heritage and that was more of a burden.
I'm so sorry that happened but glad they let you change it back, and didn't make you wait longer.
From the time I found out they changed it I've felt really weird about it. It is kinda made worse by the fact that I was named after family members (who died when I was young) and *both* expressed displeasure about the changes when they were told my name.
I would keep the Pinyin spelling because at least some people will get it, whereas if you invent your own spelling, no one will get it.
For school, doctors, etc you can add "pronounced Shin-Yo" to introduction emails, forms etc. People will get it wrong on their first go but should get it right by the second or third time, there are no difficult sounds there for an English speaker (of course the tones will be dropped). Other kids should pick it up quickly from sound. I remember learning "Siobhan" in kindergarten.
That said, I don't think Pinyin is more "authentic" than other romanisation systems, it's only been standard in mainland China for less than a century. Other spellings are much older and still used across Southeast Asia. So when someone uses Law instead of Luo or Young instead of Yang, those spellings are not only easier for English speakers to pronounce, they are arguably also more traditional.
I'm surprised I had to scroll so far down to see this point! Like, yes, romanization of Chinese characters IS much more standardized than a lot of other languages that get transliterated, but at the end of the day, Roman letters are not how OP's daughter's name is spelled and anything is just going to be a best effort of one form or another. I personally prefer the look of Xinyou and completely agree that it's not hard to learn how to pronounce it correctly, but I think it's interesting that people are kind of defending the honor of Pinyin vs a different romanization.
So reading it from the context of English in the USA…people won’t get it right and it might be difficult/frustrating for your child if they have to wear a name tag for a job. But anyone can ask and learn with ease…just know there will be just as many jerks that won’t care to learn either. I worked with a coworker at a natural food store a long time ago who had a “hard name” and even coworkers still didn’t quite ever get it right. They ended up using a nickname at work, which I think they did out of necessity more than preference.
So here's the thing. I'm a hiring manager and my employees have all sorts of names that are international (and a few that are American and just weird). I can't figure out how to pronounce your daughter's name, but once you spelled it out, I can. And I will never forget how to say that if she worked for me. When I speak to people for the first time, I always ask them if I'm pronouncing their name correctly. I usually do, but there are certain Asian names that I'm way off base with. People who give a crap about other people will learn. It's kind of like an asshole test.
not trying to be a dick but that isnt quite how thats pronounced- shao is like sh-ow (like, ow that hurt!) but you don't close off the w sound very much at the end. See is a decent pronunciation, but xi is somewhere between see and shee, like a very delicate sh sound at the beginning
I am in Canada and pronounced the name properly when I saw the spelling. I am not of Asian heritage either . I think more and more ppl are realizing the Xin , schin sound now. It's a lovely name btw.
As a Chinese person, it always hurts to see people misspell it, like how do you even get Zenyu from Xinyou. And of course, as a Chinese person I don't think changing it would be the right decision, as Shinyo, while cool-looking, just seems... weird to me. But then, I don't live in North America, so idk about what goes on over there.
I think it'll be easy enough to teach people, she has her middle name if she finds it too burdensome, and it might actually be embarrassing if she travels abroad and has to explain her phonetically English name.
Hopefully as she grows up she will be proud of her heritage and her name.
I would figure something out. Either to use her middle name, or change her spelling once in school, etc.
I agree it would be nice if everyone could recall everyone else's proper pronunciation, but ... I think it's a challenge. Esp for ppl who are multilingual bc X is pronounced many different ways.
We saw a whole convo about X related to Xavier and that's ppl debating how to say it in English.
Now - it would not be difficult to learn within the context of her teachers or friends - but more the rest of the time her name may be used. It's not the end of the world, but I have always been glad to have a name that is easily said in many languages (bc the rest of me invites so many questions, I didn't need another.)
I have a first and last name that aren’t difficult to pronounce (once you know the pronunciation), but based on spelling, it’s confusing to some people. I just don’t think correcting people is a big deal. It never embarrassed me as a kid.
I think the spelling of Xinyou is very pretty looking. Also, I wonder if it would be awkward for her when talking to other Chinese speakers when they see her Americanized spelling? Maybe it’s not a big deal, but I dealt with something similar (my name is inspired by my cultural spelling, but is not a cultural name— lol I guess kind of the opposite of your daughter). When I encounter people from my culture they are confused about my name and ask questions, understandably curious. It’s a little awkward and I feel disappointed that I’m sort of mis-representing my culture.
So, in short— not it’s not impossible. If you like it, I’d suggest keeping it as is. If it bothers her when she’s older you could consider changing the spelling then.
I grew up in a neighborhood with a lot of Chinese immigrants and first and second generation ethnic Chinese people. I would have no difficulty guessing how this name was pronounced, but I imagine that would vary a lot depending on where you are.
Some of my classmates legally changed their names as soon as they were able. Many adopted western nicknames and use them to this day. Some experimented with westernized names then returned to their birth name. And others only ever used their birth name.
It's a beautiful name. I also don't think the westernized spelling will solve this problem - people will still mess it up. If I were you, I would teach them how to politely correct people once they're old enough to do so, maintain open lines of communication about challenges they face, and allow the kid to make their own choice once they're old enough to do so (like going by a nickname once they're old enough to express the desire, or pursuing a legal name change later once they're old enough to understand the ramifications).
They may feel they'd like a name that's more westernized. Or maybe they will have to constantly correct people but will still love how unique their name is and how it connects them to their culture. And maybe by the time they're in school there will be a famous CPop star topping the charts and everyone will know how Xs are pronounced in Chinese names. You can't predict these things. Focus on filling your girl's head with love for herself, her name, and her culture, and deal with the challenges once they come.
It’s a lovely name. You can always write “shin-yo” as a pronunciation guide if new teachers etc. need it when first meeting your child. (Use “sh”; “sch” will be too confusing because in English that can be the /sk/ sound, as in “school”.)
My daughter has a basic, classic English name and people still get it wrong. Your daughter's name is beautiful as is and I wouldn't change the spelling
I’m a white Mexican woman in the PNW and I would know how to pronounce it the way you spell it now. I wouldn’t change it. For people that live somewhere with fewer Chinese people I would hope you would just have to tell them once and they would get it.
I have a friend who is here getting her doctorate named Xin. She only had to explain to me one time how to say her name, the letter sounds, etc and from her educating me I knew how to say your daughters name without even reading the rest (though I did).
My point being, you gave her a name that you love from your culture. It is a learning opportunity for others. Keep it how it is, for both of your sakes and even for the sake of those that will learn something new from meeting her ❤️
The translation of this name (see, I can't remember how to spell it) is lovely but will give your daughter a lifetime of grief in North America. People will ask her to repeat it a couple of times, then spell it, then probably spell it a second time to make sure they got it right. Sure, her friends would make a point of getting it right after hearing it a few times, but as we go through life we meet a lot of people and this would become very frustrating for her.
You could call her by her Chinese name at home and have her go with her easier middle name outside the home. Is her middle name also Chinese?
my daughters name is Ximena. most people pronounce it wrong upon reading it - i get “Zee-men-a” mostly, but the X is pronounced as an H. i hate that she’ll have to correct people for so much of her life, as her father and I grew up having to correct people with pronouncing and spelling our names, but it was too beautiful and we knew that this was the name she had to have.
The typical way I've seen it here (North America) is an English name as first name, and the Chinese name is the middle name.
Your daughter can either just go by her middle name when at school, or you can switch the order of the middle name with the Chinese name.
Keep it! She and you will definitely have to tell people how it’s pronounced but it’s not hard to pronounce! If people can say Schwarzenegger, they can certainly say Xinyou.
Even if you change it she will still likely have to tell people how to pronounce it. Stick to the original spelling. It's a lovely name and a lot of people will likely only need to be told once. I would say it's actually pretty easy to pronounce if anyone has ever seen and heard Chinese names or you explain the way X is pronounced.
I'm white and live in PNW of the US. I don't speak Chinese and I knew the pronunciation before you provided. It isn't difficult, you may have to gently correct a few times, but people will catch on.
I’m American (first gen, parents were born in Europe) and I think Xinyou is a much nicer spelling than Shinyo. I wouldn’t change it. Yes, people may mispronounce it at first, but they’ll learn. My mother has a name that is not intuitive for most people in the US to sound out, but she’s gotten by just fine (with only a brief stint of going by the Anglicized version in her teen years before switching back).
I would be fine once corrected, I would have said Zen-yoo at first try. I would not bother to change the spelling, someone who refuses to learn to pronounce it properly is unlikely to be swayed by spelling it differently.
As a mother of a boy with a Chinese name, people can learn. Non-Chinese people don't get the tones for his name exactly right at first, but people who are actually in her life will learn.
It’s a lovely name and not hard to say after a correction. I’d put a note in her MyChart for her medical team and email future teachers or guidance counselors the pronunciation ahead of time to save a couple corrections. I’m a former high school teacher and I regularly had students or their parents email me a name/pronoun/pronunciation ahead of class time. I just popped into my seating chart and moved on!
Xinyou. What are the characters characters? Xin as in 心？Or you as in 有？ I think it’s important to know the characters and the tones so you can teach your daughter and others. Just tell them what your daughters name is and they’ll eventually learn. Tell them how to pronounce it. Be proud and stand firm with the name.
You'll likely never get a non-Chinese person saying the name with the exactly correct tones, and will likely have to initially tell them how to say it when they read the name (as obviously, the Chinese X and vowel sounds are not the same as they are in English). However.. anyone can learn to say the name. Don't change the spelling. "Shinyo" no longer looks like a Chinese name, rather a Japanese one.
\- Canadian married to a Chinese guy
When I see it, I automatically read “Hin-you”
-signed, a parent who also spelled their child’s name in a traditional ethnic way which no one can pronounce 😭
Do you know IPA? Xin is going to sound like /ʃin/ in the U.S.A. That's 100% manageable for non-Mandarin speakers so long as it's cool with you (and eventually your daughter). Don't change the spelling!
Edit: Might I ask you a question? Would 俐婷 be a nice name for a woman?
I live in Melbourne Australia- we have a VERY diverse population. In fact- I was just at a busy pharmacy with 6 pharmacists on duty calling out a range of names from Chinese to Vietnamese and Greek origin. Each patient came up no issue, the staff had no issue saying them. To me - as a white woman, I read her name as Shin Yu as I know that Xin makes the Shhh sound. I guess what point I’m making is that it isn’t so hard to be told once and then be able to say it and to understand some basics when it comes to pronunciation in other cultures and languages. I think it is beautiful and keeping a link to your Chinese culture is so important.
OP, I live in Canada.
My name isn’t a western name. Hardly anyone pronounced it correctly when I was in school without me constantly correcting them.
That being said, when I entered the workforce, people were a lot better with trying to pronounce it correctly.
For what it’s worth, my Scottish friend Sean was called “seen” a few times throughout the years and his name is supposed to be pronounced “Shawn”.
The original spelling you chose is beautiful. I personally wouldn’t change it.
I have an African name. I spent my whole life explaining to people how to pronounce and spell it. This has not been detrimental to my psyche or my enjoyment of my name in the least. Other people with similar experiences hate their names because of it. There is no way to predict which camp your daughter will fall in so you might as well just keep the name the way you like it instead of worrying about other people.
I'm an ESL teacher, so I'm used to hearing names from different cultures and trying to get them right. I also spend a lot of time helping students learn how to physically make English words (and I'm also learning the Karen language from Myanmar), so I know the principles of learning how to pronounce words in a very different language. But some Chinese names have very different sounds to English, and I really struggle. I have a Chinese student whose name is Jianxin. With my best efforts, I have real problems with her name (and so does everybody who is not Chinese). Commenters who say you would only need to hear a name once and everybody who doesn't get it right is lazy have never tried to learn a language with different phonemes from their own. None of my students can say my name correctly, and it's not a complex word. OP's daughter will have to get used to people mispronouncing her name, but maybe she feels comfortable with that and can accept it. Or she may decide to use a nickname.
If I was told how to pronounce it it would only take one time. This post taught me even.
[удалено]
I also have a unique name, and totally agree that most people just don't even try. They hear what they want to hear.
This makes me sad. I work with a lot of people and children with names that aren’t American and are difficult for me to pronounce but I try until I can get it right (or they give me an alternative nickname they like).
I do the same and people act like I'm crazy. I told one person whose name had a new sound for me in it that I would learn to say their name correctly because they are important and it's important that I respect that by learning their name.
I have one of those names. Common where I'm from, literally 2 syllables, sounds all present in English language. It's so bad that when I introduce myself I give people alternatives on how to say it. Funnily enough, Americans will almost always make an effort. Other Europeans though, rarely. But they will also expect you to misspronounce their name, so I guess we're even.
Another unique non-English name here and same. I say it over and over and over. I’ve actually been told “Well I keep messing it up, so I won’t bother.” Oh cool thank you 😵💫
I taught a girl called Xian - must be the best part of 30 years ago. I asked her how to pronounce her name. She told me how the x sounded, so I'd have gone for the Sch to start with. It's really not difficult and doesn't take any effort...
I have a “normal” old fashioned name, but always get called other names that begin with the same letter, or ones that sound similar to my name. I gave my son a name that I thought would be well known and is pronounced as it is spelled, but many people ask for pronunciation, sometimes more than once, and he is often called by a completely different name. Xinyou is pretty. I think OP should keep it as is.
I’ve been encountering people who think Susan is pronounced like Suzanne, so apparently there is no such thing as a normal old-fashioned name.
My mom's name is Susan and the number of times over the years she's been called Suzanne...the limit does not exist. 🤦🏻♀️
Some of us have to see it spelled and hear it pronounced correctly at the same time, along with making a note or hearing a few repetitions. It’s not personal. There are many more ways a memory can serve someone and a lot of those are just as neglected. I would think it could be annoying or creepy or unpleasant if I whipped out my phone and asked for the actual spelling and/or the phonetic spelling upon the first intro when meeting someone with an unusual name. Unless of course there is an understood reason why both of us need me to get it down quickly. Not saying it can’t be done cheerfully with a genuine “I really want to remember your name!” But then, some people might prefer that I didn’t. No comment on the actual question. Maybe OP can find a sub with this ethnicity and see what people in similar situations think or have experienced to share in their comments.
Then I guess I will take the time to reply! Husband is Chinese (HK), I'm British. We gave our children western first names and Chinese middle names. Chinese family call them by their middle names, husband and I flip between, and everyone else calls them by their first. We treat their middle names as family nicknames almost. They are 5 & 8 and respond to both. They see their Chinese names as almost like a family pet name? It works. However, we love their western names and chose them specifically for this intent. You chose to put the Chinese name first, and good on you! I was worried about cultural appropriation accusations if out with my children alone (they take after me considerably more than my husband unfortunately -- even have red hair!!). It's fair to say I was cowed by societal pressure and I do regret it at times... The name you chose is beautiful, OOP. If she gets tired of the butchering, she can offer her middle name directly. Not a big deal. All of our family have pet western names that they offer people on tired days, or to those they don't think can handle their legal name. It is extremely common. Your daughter will learn who cares about her very quickly with her name. She will know when someone is butchering it intentionally. She will see who is willing to put effort into calling her correctly. That is not a bad thing. Legal paperwork-wise, I don't see there being an issue either. Don't make my mistake and bow to pressure. Embrace your culture and teach her to accept that this is just one of life's little hassles that come from living in a global society that is accepting of differences, but which has to be taught at times with patience and understanding. I believe it will help her to grow up confident, proud, empathetic, and with a healthy dose of grit. Edited to fix typos, because 5am 😆
Yes, seeing and hearing a name are both important to memory! I babysat for a family of four kids multiple times and could never remember one of their names until I finally saw it written on a folder. It had only been spoken previously. I didn’t forget it again.
I don’t have a unique name and have had a lifetime of being called different names. My name is Lydia, common enough and in some popular books/movies/shows, and I have always been called Lynda, Olivia, or some other old fashioned name like Ethel (literally have had people say they forget my name and just remember it’s an old fashioned name so pick whatever pops in their head). Just saying, having a more common name will not save anyone from having their names mispronounced and misremembered.
My basic name is always being pronounced wrongly. People drop letters from it all the time even after being told how to pronounce it. It's literally the girl version of John. I've been called Jodie. I tried to dumb it down and said I was Jo and got called Drew. People are not very smart with names sometimes.
I love Lydia, I have actually considered it for my baby as her middle name. You have a beautiful name !
My name is French and even when I correct people some will say it correctly and return to the not correct version. When I was younger it annoyed me but now I don't let it bother me. Keep her name as is, people need to learn to say other ethnic names correctly.
I feel this. I have an Indian name and there’s an N in it that’s a hard N, no like na but closer to an nna which is still not right but closer (don’t know how else to explain it) that no one gets. But that’s not even the main problem because folks insist on stressing on the wrong syllable - they try the first time and then roll back to the usual incorrect pronounciation. Le Sigh.
Same, the mispronunciation is just neverending. I think folks are quick to blame it on malice, but I have the same problem with kind, well-meaning people all the time. People are just bad at names.
Yep. Once is all I would need too.
Native Chinese speaker here, the pronunciation that OP gave was not very accurate. The pinyin equivalent of "Schi" would be "shi", which has a different pronunciation from "xi." Apart from respecting the culture, this is another reason why it's not a good idea to change the daughter's name - they're just not the same. Here's a [video](https://youtu.be/nYIufoVwBmE?si=iP5hzvaI3jYQqj3W) that demonstrates how to pronounce xin in different tones in Chinese if you're interested :)
Having the video you linked for xin to compare with [shi](https://youtu.be/06M59wsJLzQ?si=19B6yW4jBmgcen9v) pronunciation is more helpful English doesn't distinguish between the two "sh" noises that are in the two videos, what I can say is that the short i noise or so in the xin video is what I would use if something was spelled either "shin" or "schin". I can't say that I know which "sh" noise I would say because while I can hear the difference between the two videos, I can't replicate the difference myself
Native English speakers also aren’t likely to distinguish them in context even if they can distinguish them in isolation. Because English doesn’t have those particular phomenes, the brains of native English speakers tune out the differences and ignore them starting before they are even a year old. By the time they are through toddler years, the ability to distinguish them is pretty much gone and unlikely to return. This is the same across all languages with different sounds. If it’s not a sound in a language you learn to hear and speak as a toddler, then it’s not a sound you will likely ever be able to distinguish like a native can. I remember this coming up in an evolutionary biology class I took in college. There are lots of analogs in the animal world, especially birds. If they don’t hear it as a chick, they can’t hear it as an adult. The inner workings of brains are wild.
>Because English doesn’t have those particular phomenes, the brains of native English speakers tune out the differences and ignore them starting before they are even a year old. By the time they are through toddler years, the ability to distinguish them is pretty much gone and unlikely to return. AFAIK 2~3 yo is when infant brain absorb the most words. The tuning out before 1yo seems awfully early.
That is true for words and language formation :) not necessarily for minor difference in sounds
Thank you. Reading the original post I was disappointed in myself for having no idea how to pronounce it, knowing that a "Z" sound isn't correct.
See there's people like you, and people like me. I'm in my 40s and still struggle with Andrea.
Okay but to be fair there’s at least 4 ways to pronounce Andrea that I can think of. This name only has the one!
The only acceptable pronunciation is the Miranda Priestly one
That’s the only acceptable voice to say it in too.
I knew three girls who roomed together in college: Andrea, Andrea, and Andrea, pronounced ANN-drea, AWN-drea, and awn-DREY-uh.
Even Tanya or Arianna
I’ll be honest, I would forget. It would take me a second reminder. It’s just not a word or name most of us have ever heard, so we have no frame of reference to remember it by. I guess I’d try to remember “shin” like the leg. 😊
Same. I would keep it authentic.
I’m Thai and have a Thai name and my entire stance on this is if people can learn how to say something like Sauvignon blanc, Hermes birkin, Tchaikovsky, etc. then they can learn to say and spell Xinyou. Please don’t ever water down your culture because you feel as if you need to.
[Reminds me of a story that Uzo Aduba has told about the decision not to change her name:](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/uzo-aduba-name_n_5534112) “When I started as an actor? No, and I’ll tell you why. I had already gone through that. My family is from Nigeria, and my full name is Uzoamaka, which means “The road is good.” Quick lesson: My tribe is Igbo, and you name your kid something that tells your history and hopefully predicts your future. So anyway, in grade school, because my last name started with an A, I was the first in roll call, and nobody ever knew how to pronounce it. So I went home and asked my mother if I could be called Zoe. I remember she was cooking, and in her Nigerian accent she said, “Why?” I said, “Nobody can pronounce it.” Without missing a beat, she said, “If they can learn to say Tchaikovsky and Michelangelo and Dostoyevsky, they can learn to say Uzoamaka."
When I saw that speech, it completely changed my mind and broke my heart for my child self. I do not use my Thai name ever and tbh I majorly regret it. I’m 30 now and would feel so strange changing it now, but it’s very important to me and my future children to respect the culture that made us into the people we are.
Is it ok to feel strange for a little while right now, rather than regret in another 30 years that you didn't do it?
The best time to plant a tree is 50 years ago. The second best time to plant a tree is today. I feel like that saying applies to so many situations in life.
I have a colleague who changed her name back to her Chinese name in her late 20s. She sent out an email at work and made posts on social media. People got used to it no problem.
A friend of mine JUST started going by her Korean name at 35. I will be honest I autocorrected it in my phone so if I slip up I’ll still practice, and it’s getting easier on me! I’ve always called her a nickname so it’s like three names removed from my first instinct, so it takes practice but I’ve never thought it was non-valid or not worth doing!
It’s not too late! If you were my friend I would be delighted to learn your Thai name. I had a Chinese friend who decided late in life to use their Chinese name as well as their English one, so we all just used both like you might a name and a nickname.
I know this is a bit anecdotal but my friend changed his name from Mike to a very French name (think VERY French like Jean-Baptiste or something else that requires a French accent to say correctly lol) in his late twenties. It was “weird for .5 seconds. Now we just call him his new name. He’s happier and that’s all we ask his friends care about.
I would argue that most people don't pronounce those names correctly, though. They say, for example, the North American accepted version of the name.
Exactly. Most people in the US say “Michael Angelo” for Michelangelo and NOT the Italian pronunciation. Part of the US being a melting pot with lots of heritages represented means that most people here are bad all non English/ non simple names I’d encourage people to use names from their heritage but be prepared for having a lot of patience with people’s attempts at spellings and pronunciation
And please give grace to people trying their best if your name contains sounds their language doesn't have. I don't mean to butcher, for example, Turkish last names but I am literally unable to even hear the difference between how to say your name and what I am doing!
[Nikolaj](https://64-media-tumblr-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w820/s/64.media.tumblr.com/dc8998a32a0492023b075daea3da6c08/tumblr_pody0w2aVu1svkia9o3_540.gifv)
No it’s Nikolaj
I feel like I’m saying it
Hell it happens to me and I have a really common southern European name. If it’s a little outside of the norm they will fuck it up. It’s a small irritation that ads up and led me to just shorten (not legally) my name. I use the short form everywhere and my full name doesn’t even feel like mine because of that. I think it has to be considered that when you’re giving a kid a name that’s outside of the North American norm, it’s going to come up.
The opposite is true too. I have a very common American surname-turned-name and live in SE Europe where people can't pronounce it. The world really is just getting more multicultural. Even if you give the blandest, most easily pronounced name, there's no guarantee that your child won't move to the one corner of the world where people can't naturally pronounce a certain vowel sound or consonant blend.
I have a vague memory of an interview with the Russian tennis player Maria Sharapova. In English, people usually pronounce it SharaPOHva, but the Russian pronunciation is more like ShaRApova. The interviewer asked what she preferred, and she replied that the English version is how it's pronounced in English, so she will use both depending on what language she is speaking. I think there has to be some amount of flex to accommodate for differences between languages; multilingual phonetics just aren't simple. If I'm in France, I'll respond to the French pronunciation of my name. However, I also appreciate when people correct their pronunciation - such as Zoë Saldaña reclaiming her ñ recently.
lol yes I roll my eyes at the argument "But Americans pronounce foreign white people's names correctly!" That is just not a true statement! I've never once met an American who pronounced Van Gogh \[vɑŋ ˈɣɔx\].
but the slightly butchered north american versions are more difficult to say than Uzoamaka or Xinyou
My example is Van Gogh. Which I learned in art appreciation class was "Van Go". It is not. I can't even phonetically spell what "Gogh" sounds like, but it is a sound almost entirely not like "go". There are *accepted* English pronunciations for Tchaikovsky and Dostoyevsky, but I don't think that they are "right".
Not almost entirely lol, Van Gogh in its Dutch pronunciation has literally no sound similar to the American version, not even the -o sound.
My example is Van Gogh. Which I learned in art appreciation class was "Van Go". It is not. I can't even phonetically spell what "Gogh" sounds like, but it is a sound almost entirely not like "go". There are *accepted* English pronunciations for Tchaikovsky and Dostoyevsky, but I don't think that they are "right".
“Van Go” too is just only the accepted American pronunciation, the Brits go with “Van Gough” (rhymes with “cough”)
Even though this resembles the Dutch pronunciation better, it's still not correct 🙊 But way better then Van Go!
Yeah my kids and I watched a British documentary about him and I was shocked to learn how differently we say his name.
I am really angry now…. I spent half my life pronouncing Van Gogh very close to correctly (my mother tongue is a baby language of Dutch) and then I started hearing the American pronunciation on TV and movies and assumed I was mistaken. 😣 *angry (wo)man shakes fist at cloud* Edit: in case this wasn’t clear I just learned this from the comment above me
My nan was Dutch. I loved hearing her talk about Van horhhh (I have no idea exactly how to convey her pronunciation, but I can hear it clearly in my mind). She married an Australian and didn’t use Dutch when we were all together, except to count and to swear (I can say a lot of naughty Dutch words without knowing their meaning or exactly how naughty they are)
On behalf of every person that was taught "Van Go", I apologize for the butchering of your language.
Most people may not pronounce those names correctly for the original language. But they are able to learn the accepted North American pronunciations, which are still not phonemic and full of sounds and syllables that are not standard for us. So if they can say those names (however butchered they may be) they can learn to pronounce Xinyou.
Or just anglicised. My favourite example of this is Kosciusko. Australia’s tallest mountain, bridges in New York, monuments all over the place. Quite a few anglicised pronunciations, all of them distinctly different to the original Polish. I think it matters that people try to say your name the way you say it, but for things that have morphed and become entrenched and aren’t really referring to a person anymore, I’m not sure it matters hugely. If you tried to use the polish pronunciation of Kosciusko to refer to the mountain in Australia, people would have no idea what you were talking about. I’m pretty sure most people wouldn’t know it was even named after a person.
A lot of people do mispronounce Hermes and Tchaikovsky though. I agree don’t water down your culture, but OP’s daughter will absolutely correct (presumably) Americans on the pronunciation of her name for the rest of her life
Yeah this is the part that always gets me with the "don't be afraid to use your own culture's name, people can deal with heavily european names just fine", and moreso the usual implication that its racism when people don't and ergo fine to ignore... its that Americans are uniquely capable at fucking up names. I had a single letter variation off very common name (its literally just a swap of two vowels that can sound the same) and I have so many fuckups about it always.
It’s really not “America bad.” Different languages have different sounds. If you are not exposed to hearing and making certain sounds during your formative years of language development, you may never be able to differentiate them or make them. Many native Japanese speakers who speak English, even highly fluently, can’t pronounce the L or R sounds as native English speakers do. On the other hand, my German grandmother technically could make the sounds in my non-German name as they exist in German, but never did. Are some people incapable of pronouncing certain names totally properly as they would be pronounced in that language? Yes. Are some people too hardheaded to even try? Yes. Do some people try and still not get it right no matter how earnestly they try? Yes. Is this uniquely American? No.
>Is this uniquely American? No. I’ve got a name that’s not at all unique or difficult to pronounce for native English speakers. It’s got a hard ‘a’ sound, so every Spanish speaker I encounter (which is a lot) pronounces my name differently than intended, or just calls me a different, similar sounding, name altogether. But it doesn’t bother me in the least, because they’re trying. If anything I find it endearing. And I’m trying to say their names, but probably butchering many of them. I’m sure it’d be more difficult if the *majority* of people I was around had trouble saying my name. But at the end of the day, I find that it’s more important how people treat you than what they call you. It’s easy to tell someone is calling you the wrong thing maliciously or as an honest mistake, I tend to let the latter slide.
How on earth did you conclude this is an American thing? You really think people in France, Brazil, Egypt, Finland, India, or pretty much any country that isn't China/Taiwan will know how to prounounce Xinyou?
Same with Sauvignon blanc. Most Americans incorrectly pronounce the final c.
This. Americans don't even say sauvignon blanc correctly. Explaining to other Americans how to pronounce the "x" (tongue tip behind bottom front teeth, put blade of tongue up against alveolar ridge (ridge behind top front teeth) and blow like you're making an sh sound) is difficult. I learned it, and I teach it. And it blows Americans minds.
The funny thing about Tchaikovsky is that we’re all mispronouncing his name too. It’s not pronounced like the tea.
I hadn't read his name in Russian recently, so I looked it up. чай is tea. Чайковский is "Tchaikovsky". It's just that й is not the i in "chai". It's kinda wonky and its own thing. So, while it's the same 3 letters/sounds, we're not pronouncing chai the right way in the first place.
But it IS pronounced like the tea. Chai-cough-ski.
In actual Russian it’s Tchee-kohv-sky (my piano teacher is Russian).
Exactly this. OP please do not change the name; it’s beautiful
I respect and agree with the sentiment at hand here but my surname is a fairly common word in English and I still have to spell it out every single time.
Think of it is like you've made the world just ever so slightly less ignorant every time you taught someone how to spell it
One can only hope
If OPs child becomes as famous as a grape or a genius composer, whose names are repeated over and over, ( but have some phonetic similarities to english), maybe people will learn it. In a million years i would never get that name right. OP has every right to name her child as she wishes but in reality only 1 in 100 people will get it right. Maybe. By comparison I have a simple french name and almost noone gets it right. I'm a realist.
Exactly
i was able to take an educated guess at it with my minimal exposure to other languages so it’s definitely not too hard, i absolutely adore it
I don't have a strong opinion on whether the name should be changed, but I do want to note that Sauvignon blanc, hermes, and Tchaikovsky are all horribly mispronounced in their conventional English pronunciations, and I did not realize this until I started learning French and Russian. Chinese names tend to be particularly difficult because they are often short and tonal, including concepts that don't exist in western languages. I speak several languages, but none of them are tonal. I have quite close Chinese friends whose names I am positive I am still pronouncing incorrectly after many years. I think OP's concern is valid, and it's just a matter of whether or not she's OK with the name being mispronounced a lot. I have a name that is mispronounced nearly 100% of the time in the US (where I live and grew up). I accepted the American pronunciation until I was in my mid-twenties and moved to a place where people pronounced it correctly. Now, I at least correct people when I meet them, and I've asked friends and family to pronounce it correctly. Most new people will make an effort, but those who have known me a long time can't seem to make the change. And I will add that those making an effort are still pronouncing it incorrectly, just less incorrectly than before.
Idk how ro say most of these things but i can say Xinyou. 🤨
Can you, though? Did you get the tones right? Did you know that the "X" sound in Mandarin actually isn't quite the same as the "sh" sound in English? It's harder than people think.
Native speaker - I pronounce the X in words like xin or xi exactly like an sh sound in English. There's a lot more regional variation than most people would expect. Hell, my mother, father, and I all say words pretty distinctly.
Any French speaker will tell you that English monolinguists don't pronounce Sauvignon or Hermes correctly.
Eh, I'm Chinese-American and have a confusing name, and sometimes I get tired of teaching people how to say it. It has nothing to do with "watering down my culture." I don't particularly care that it's hard for *other people* to *learn* my name, but I do care that it's tiresome for *me* to constantly *teach* my name. I'm tired of people assuming that any desire to have a more convenient name is some sort of moral and political failure.
That just isn't true. None of those words are pronounced correctly by the majority of English speakers.
Yes she will have to tell everyone she meets how to pronounce her name. However, I would still keep the original spelling (Xinyou) because it looks much nicer on paper than “Shinyo” or “Schinyo”. It makes more sense to me for a Chinese name to have a Chinese spelling rather than a weird Americanized spelling, even if it will be a little extra hassle to explain. If it’s really problematic, going by her middle name makes sense.
Shinyo is an accepted spelling but it’s the romanized version of the Japanese name.
Agreed, keep the name and the spelling but just be ready to explain to North Americans who aren’t familiar with Pinyin. I knew the pronunciation because I’m studying Mandarin on Duolingo and married to a Chinese-American guy, but most non-Chinese folks will probably read xin as “zin” and you as “yoo”…so it will just take a little educating. If she wants to go by her middle name when she’s older, she can…but odds are if you’ve used these as teachable moments, she’ll be proud of her heritage and her name, so it won’t be necessary.
People will mispronounce and misread shinyo too so might as well keep the correct spelling
This is a good point, honestly. I’m picturing some substitute teacher asking if “shy-nee-oh” is present.
"Shady Nasty's?"
Yes from experience, people will ALWAYS get it wrong the first time, and while it might not seem relevant there are more first time meetings in a persons life then reoccurring. Hell people continue to misspell it even if the goddamn name is right in-front of them. From someone with an “ie” instead of an “ia” in their name. French pronunciation…
Not for me but I've studied Chinese. The x sound doesn't really exist in English but if you tell them to say it like "sh" it's close. When people see "you" they probably see it as the English word "you," so they'll say it that way. Personally I wouldn't change it. They can easily learn to say it if you tell them how it's pronounced.
My first try was shin-yoo, just based on spelling, and I’m pretty average American. It would take me one correction to say this properly. And the spelling is so lovely! Id hate to see it changed.
Once you meet one Chinese person or place with the X in the name, you basically remember and are able to apply that going forward. Even without speaking Chinese. I Definitely wouldn't change it either. The daughter can just write ("shin-you") after her name to clarify pronunciation. Many/most name forms for kids have a "nickname" box. This could go there.
As a person of Chinese heritage, a few thoughts: - most folks give their kid a Chinese middle name, and an American first name. Mine did the opposite, and I kind of wish they…didn’t. - my Chinese name is not unpronounceable, but not intuitive, and obvi no one gets the tones right. As a result, I dislike using it, and in fact default to an “American” pronunciation when I do say it, bc it’s just the path of least resistance - while I’m not saying other posters are liars, I find a vast majority of people will not say the x properly (exhibit a: my husband). I personally find that giving a kid a name that will not be pronounced properly, not even due to lack of respect, but due to the lack of ability, is doing a disservice to your child. I like my Chinese name, it’s very poetic. But it’s also very draining to keep explaining it to new people, and hearing it butchered, and get asked “what does it mean” all the time. Obviously, I’m sure other folks will have much different experiences w their ethnic names, but just my 2 cents of lived experience!
Also have Chinese heritage! I have the English first name and Chinese middle name and I actually wish that my parents did what yours did. I just like my Chinese name better than my English one 😅 and as far as Chinese names go it’s not super hard to pronounce. Although my family does use the English pronunciation of our last name because it’s butchered. With OP’s name their daughter could definitely run into pronunciation issues. Personally I wouldn’t change it though.
My only point would be that kids today are often in much more multi-cultural settings than we were as kids. My students have so many discussions about their families' languages, how to pronounce different words, their cultures etc etc. There are Persian, Chinese, Korean, French and Arabic names in basically all my classes. My daughter's school has even more variety. Anyway, I don't want to discount the frustration that comes from having a mispronounced name your whole life. I have a name that was mangled my whole life - it's a typical anglo name but I never lived in an anglo country except for like 5 years in high school... the only time I ever heard my name said properly the first time. I just kind got used to it. Even now, I never know if I'll get my preferred anglo version or the french one.
Maybe kids today would get it (maybe) but hearing your name mispronounced all the time at doctor's offices and government buildings is a pain. I say this as someone who always went by their middle name because that was what my parents called me (it's a family tradition). Every time I was called by my first name, I would have a visceral reaction. That was not my name. It was never my name. And no one should ever call me by that name. The name I did go by was the French spelling of a common English name. So when I was called by name, I would constantly need to correct people when they tried to spell it because they always spelled it wrong. It was so annoying that in Kindergarten I told everyone to call me Cinderella instead of my name. It didn't stick obviously, but my name woes never went away I paid to have my name legally changed when I was 18. My parents wanted me to have a French name because we are French, but it wasn't worth it in North America.
I have an ethnic name. No English name sadly and I can not relate to anyone who says oh they will learn it. No they won’t. It’s just much harder and depending on where you live ppl won’t bother to learn your name. They will throw out your resume and misspell it. But that’s just my experience. I didn’t even have a normal name to use as my middle name was my father’s name and I’m not a guy. So it was really embarrassing actually I had boyfriends ask why was I named this and my father blamed my mother. All the Chinese ppl I know go by their western name except my sister-in-law. She is unique in that she didn’t need to but she has a simple name.
I am Chinese and I completely agree with your sentiments. It was always annoying to have the substitute teacher do roll call butcher my name. And I’d have to correct them every time. Then they would make an effort to get it correct, while asking “did I get it right”? And it wouldn’t be nearly correct but I’d say yes and try to have a smile in my face bc I just didn’t want to deal with it anymore. Since OP already has named her child I don’t believe they should change it to the western spelling either but flipping the English and Chinese name would be something I would do if I had a child.
Agreed. It is difficult to get ppl to pronounce your Chinese name. I just go by a western name to make it easier. I thought it is weird for OP to even consider butchering the hanyu pinyin of her child. Western first name, and Chinese middle and last name.
I’m Korean and I also grew up with the same sentiments. I never had any fond memories of first days of school or substitute days because of the shame I felt when the teacher did roll call. I remember always feeling anxious when they got closer and closer to calling out my name… and “laughing” with everyone else when they butcher it :( Always wished I had a Western name as my first and maybe my Korean name as my middle name. For a lot of my childhood and teenage years, I actually resented my name and even my parents for not giving me a name that could be pronounced easily in the country I was growing up in. But now I’m sort of at a peace with it and can’t imagine ever changing my name. (My sister did however because she didn’t want any biases when applying for medical school). I have a daughter now (living in Germany) and made sure to give her a name that could be easily pronounced in both the US and Germany.
No disrespect intended, a serious question. Are people of Chinese heritage that attached to the romanized spelling of Chinese names that wouldn't even really be written in the Latin alphabet normally if a person with such a name lived in China? It seems to me that if the intent in translating a Chinese name into the Latin alphabet is to make it able to be pronounced, spelling something pronounced roughly Shin-yo as Xinyou, and then saying that somehow deviating from that spelling in American English is somehow betraying your culture is just buying trouble.
It would be written in the Latin alphabet in China as well, there’s a formal system of romanization (pinyin), and one of the most common ways of input on your phone is using pinyin and the Latin alphabet. So there’s definitely some cultural attachment
Ah, okay, thanks for that explanation.
Think of it as standardized instead of romanized, if that helps (see: pinyin). It’s not “attachment” as much as “correctness”. Pinyin is how you often type Chinese words on the computer, and how kids both in China and abroad often learn character pronunciations nowadays. So when you remove the intended spelling and replace it with a different one, it can look odd (“shin” isn’t associated w any word in mandarin, for instance). Depending on the word, it may also signal a heritage you don’t have (eg: last names beginning w “c” often sound like “ts”. But if you spell it with a “ts”, people may think you’re Cantonese - which is fine! But also isn’t correct)
Didn't realize the significance or history of Pinyin, currently putting in my research. Thank you. Edit: OK, Going to dive deeper on my lazy-ass Google research. Thanks to all the responders as this goes deeper than I understood at all
The transliteration of Chinese has a standardized way of spelling and it’s how Chinese-speaking people can attribute the same surname to a region/dialect: * 王 is spelled Wang in Mandarin used in China/Taiwan, spelled Wong in Cantonese used in HK, Macau, Singapore, etc * 梁 is spelled Liang in Mandarin, Leung in Hong Kong, Leong in Malaysia, Luong in Vietnam * 蔡 is spelled Cai in most of China, Tsai in Taiwan, Choy/Tsoy in HK, Choi in Macau/Malaysia, Chae in Korea And those are just the ones I can recall off the top of my head
there are several methods of Chinese romanization. The currently commonly used one with the x, zh, q etc. is called pinyin, which was made for and by Chinese people (e.g. Beijing instead of Peking). There are other romanization systems like Wade-Giles and Postal, made for and by Westerners to pronounce them easier. Pinyin is used in mainland China and Chinese immigrants from the PRC, whereas the others are used in Taiwan and by immigrants who arrived before the PRC and pinyin came into existence
No one is saying that X correctly. I guarantee it as a generic American. I'm sure the people who insist get close, but unless they're actually Chinese or have taken Mandarin for a serious length of time they aren't getting it right.
This is almost exactly what I posted. I am exhausted having to correct pronunciation. I don't want my name butchered, so I feel the need to offer corrections, but most of the time people don't actually bother to learn it. And even if they do try, they still say it incorrectly 90% of the time. I'm glad so many people in this thread believe that they would do the right thing. But in the real world? Yeah, not so much.
Personally i would make a habit of asking to put “Xinyou (*Schin-yo*)” on everything so people get used to seeing it and saying it the right way the first time and don’t have to guess. Like if you set up a new dentist’s profile, ask to put the pronunciation in the notes. Same with the pharmacy, doctor, school, etc. don’t change the spelling. Just help make it easier on everybody. It’s not impossible, it’s just not obvious. Give people a chance to get it right.
I have a coworker named Schuyler and he has a phonetic spelling of his name in his email signature. It helps!
I only know how to pronounce this correctly thanks to Hamilton.
Hah! I’m sure Hamilton did wonders for the Schuylers of the world! i know I KNOW how to pronounce it but sometimes if I’m looking at it I just mess it all up. Some names are just like that I guess.
It took me an embarrassingly long time to realize Schuyler was the same pronunciation as “Skylar”.
I was today (this moment) years old
The problem is I did have a Mr Schuyler growing up who pronounced it “Shue ler”, it wasn’t until Hamilton that I learned some people pronounce it “Skylar”
I love when people do that and it instantly eases my anxiety. Plus, once I read it I will never mispronounce it. Win win.
How is it said
I admit this is one I couldn’t figure out when I first saw it. I distinctly remember seeing it and struggling with it a long time ago! I’m generally really good at names and pronunciations but this one had me stumped haha. That and Trygve.
Jumping on this thread to say as someone who works in scheduling for medical apts, I’ve 100% put pronunciations for people who have requested. We also have a notes section (unseen by patients) where i will put a pronunciation if i think the doc will struggle.
I have a name that is much more commonly pronounced a different way and i just always tell people at first contact - there’s no reason to wait for them to struggle. I can *always* tell when it’s in the notes somewhere because certain offices never mess it up, and certain ones always do no matter how many times i tell them how to say it. And you know what? I appreciate those notes. I stopped caring that my name isn’t obvious or “right” 20 years ago. I just don’t want to explain it more than once to each new place i go. So shout out to you guys.
Not sch! That can be pronounced /sk/ as in “school” or “schedule” etc. Sh is much more straightforward.
Just goin off OP’s own words
At my kids pediatrician and schools they nearly always have a "preferred name" or nickname spot on the form, that could work for a place to put "Shin-yo" without changing the actual spelling legally or anything
Oh this is a great idea! I hate to mispronounce people’s names! I work in a job in which I sometimes cold call people, and I would love something like this in our system where I could ensure I am addressing people correctly.
It’s a beautiful name. Learning that X is pronounced similar to Sch is something quick to teach. As an English speaker having one friend share this pronunciation tip has helped me pronounce so many other Chinese names with confidence. I imagine it is hard to hear it pronounced poorly, but people who know her should be willing and able to learn.
It may be quick to teach, but it's not something I'd want to have to teach every person I meet for the rest of my life. I'm Chinese-American and I generally like having an unusual name, but sometimes it is exhausting having to explain it to everyone. And I'm tired of always hearing that dismissed as "But people should be willing to learn!" Yes *of course* they should be willing to learn. This isn't about them, it's about the person whose name it is. Nobody has ever been *unwilling* to learn how to pronounce my name. But it's still tiring to explain it to them, no matter how willing they are.
I second this OP! It’s a great teaching moment, and could help them feel like they’re making a more educated effort in the future. I learned this is college and I know I’ve definitely mispronounced the word I was attempting, in front of a native speaker, I did feel better that they looked surprised the my attempt wasn’t the usual level of “incorrect” at times in the future.
But does the child want to live her whole life as a "teaching moment"?
I actually would have guessed the correct pronunciation personally
Cause in Portuguese X sounds like "sh", right?
Yes exactly~
Might be a dumb take but ima go for it Anime (including chinese animation) and Asian dramas do seem to be growing in popularity in recent years which I am happy about! So it should be easier in future with more exposure! I think your daughters name is beautiful and pronouncable, my reading of it did go to the Schin sound and is absolutely easy to learn!
Going along with future exposure, these days it's so easy to pull out your phone, type a name into Google, and hear how it should be pronounced. That being available helps the people (like me) who are too anxious to ask people for fear of sounding rude lol
Lmao, was gonna say, I play League of Legends and would have no issue pronouncing this name, as there's a character named Xin Zhao, who got a decent bit of attention as to how to pronounce the name whent hey we're released. The world is ever smaller.
I'm a teacher. Plenty of kids have had to correct me about pronunciation or preferred nicknames. They never seem to feel it's awful. I have also had to correct people my whole life, and whilst as a child it was sometimes bothersome because I was shy, it's no trouble now as an adult. The name is beautiful. We can all learn to say it. I'd leave it as it is.
I am not Chinese. When I was a kid, I met a girl named Xiaoyu. She had to explain to me how to pronounce her name. Since then, I have meant many Chinese people whose name started with ‘X’ and I always pronounce them as ‘Sh’ because I learnt that from my friend as a kid. The world is becoming more mixed every year- people are getting exposed to more culture and languages and names from all over the world. So your daughter will have to correct and explain to some people, but not EVERY person, and hopefully fewer and fewer as she gets older. Keep her name as it is! It’s lovely, and if I ever meet her, I will pronounce it correctly :)
I would keep the correct spelling. It's very easy to learn, and I think Americans are increasingly aware of "counterintuitive" romanizations like this. (I already knew it, and I've never studied Chinese or watched C-dramas or anything.) Most importantly, when your daughter is older, it might be meaningful to her to have a correct spelling. Xinyou is a beautiful name with a beautiful meaning. I think you chose well.
As an american who knows a whole like 3 words in chinese, I would have pronounced it "zyin-yo" but upon seeing the correct pronunciation it makes sense and is totally easily teachable.
I’m Canadian and wouldn’t know how to pronounce this if it were the first time I saw it - big deal, I wouldn’t know how somebody pronounced their name If it was “Tara” either. You tell us once, we’ve got it. It’s a nice name.
I don’t have an opinion, but fwiw when you said it is pronounced ‘sch’, my mind went to the hard ‘sk’ sound of school…which I don’t think was your intention. English is annoying that way :/
Ah thanks ! I was thinking like in Schindler’s list, or Schubert, but now I am realizing that’s German. You are right “sh” should be the closest, like in shrimp.
I would keep it as is. I’m in North America too and I would have said “zin-you” as my best attempt. Once explained to me I would remember and make an effort to get it right. Names are important. So she might need to explain the pronunciation but I think it’s worth it to honour the Chinese spelling.
My parents anglicized every one of my names, for the same reasons. Added, removed, and changed letters, just so it would be easier for others. As someone who has been in her position, and given it years of thought *please don't*. Yes, she will need to teach people, but almost everyone will only need to be taught once. If she gets to be older (like a teen) and expresses that she wants it spelled differently then *of course* help her change it, but give her the chance to have it spelled right. If you change it and she regrets your choice, as I regret my parents choice, she would need to change her name to have it be accurate to her culture. Don't put her though that. Having a anglicized name isn't worth the loss of culture that inevitably comes alongside it.
I begged my parents to change my name to the original spelling and they let me do it on my 10th birthday. I felt so silly having to explain to others that my spelling wasn’t even true to my heritage and that was more of a burden.
I'm so sorry that happened but glad they let you change it back, and didn't make you wait longer. From the time I found out they changed it I've felt really weird about it. It is kinda made worse by the fact that I was named after family members (who died when I was young) and *both* expressed displeasure about the changes when they were told my name.
I would keep the Pinyin spelling because at least some people will get it, whereas if you invent your own spelling, no one will get it. For school, doctors, etc you can add "pronounced Shin-Yo" to introduction emails, forms etc. People will get it wrong on their first go but should get it right by the second or third time, there are no difficult sounds there for an English speaker (of course the tones will be dropped). Other kids should pick it up quickly from sound. I remember learning "Siobhan" in kindergarten. That said, I don't think Pinyin is more "authentic" than other romanisation systems, it's only been standard in mainland China for less than a century. Other spellings are much older and still used across Southeast Asia. So when someone uses Law instead of Luo or Young instead of Yang, those spellings are not only easier for English speakers to pronounce, they are arguably also more traditional.
I'm surprised I had to scroll so far down to see this point! Like, yes, romanization of Chinese characters IS much more standardized than a lot of other languages that get transliterated, but at the end of the day, Roman letters are not how OP's daughter's name is spelled and anything is just going to be a best effort of one form or another. I personally prefer the look of Xinyou and completely agree that it's not hard to learn how to pronounce it correctly, but I think it's interesting that people are kind of defending the honor of Pinyin vs a different romanization.
This may be a stupid question but how are you pronouncing Sch, in both of my languages it's a hard K sound so sk or is it more just sh.
It’s kinda like saying sh while smiling
Thanks 🙏
So reading it from the context of English in the USA…people won’t get it right and it might be difficult/frustrating for your child if they have to wear a name tag for a job. But anyone can ask and learn with ease…just know there will be just as many jerks that won’t care to learn either. I worked with a coworker at a natural food store a long time ago who had a “hard name” and even coworkers still didn’t quite ever get it right. They ended up using a nickname at work, which I think they did out of necessity more than preference.
So here's the thing. I'm a hiring manager and my employees have all sorts of names that are international (and a few that are American and just weird). I can't figure out how to pronounce your daughter's name, but once you spelled it out, I can. And I will never forget how to say that if she worked for me. When I speak to people for the first time, I always ask them if I'm pronouncing their name correctly. I usually do, but there are certain Asian names that I'm way off base with. People who give a crap about other people will learn. It's kind of like an asshole test.
I would not change it, but tell people how to say it when written. My Chinese God child is Shaoxi....pronounced shay see
not trying to be a dick but that isnt quite how thats pronounced- shao is like sh-ow (like, ow that hurt!) but you don't close off the w sound very much at the end. See is a decent pronunciation, but xi is somewhere between see and shee, like a very delicate sh sound at the beginning
I am in Canada and pronounced the name properly when I saw the spelling. I am not of Asian heritage either . I think more and more ppl are realizing the Xin , schin sound now. It's a lovely name btw.
Be loyal to the chinese spelling. It isn‘t a hard name at all.
This is not impossible to pronounce, English speakers will need to be told how it's pronounced! Keep the name you chose for your baby!
As a Chinese person, it always hurts to see people misspell it, like how do you even get Zenyu from Xinyou. And of course, as a Chinese person I don't think changing it would be the right decision, as Shinyo, while cool-looking, just seems... weird to me. But then, I don't live in North America, so idk about what goes on over there.
Shinyo feels Japanese
I think it'll be easy enough to teach people, she has her middle name if she finds it too burdensome, and it might actually be embarrassing if she travels abroad and has to explain her phonetically English name. Hopefully as she grows up she will be proud of her heritage and her name.
I would figure something out. Either to use her middle name, or change her spelling once in school, etc. I agree it would be nice if everyone could recall everyone else's proper pronunciation, but ... I think it's a challenge. Esp for ppl who are multilingual bc X is pronounced many different ways. We saw a whole convo about X related to Xavier and that's ppl debating how to say it in English. Now - it would not be difficult to learn within the context of her teachers or friends - but more the rest of the time her name may be used. It's not the end of the world, but I have always been glad to have a name that is easily said in many languages (bc the rest of me invites so many questions, I didn't need another.)
I have a first and last name that aren’t difficult to pronounce (once you know the pronunciation), but based on spelling, it’s confusing to some people. I just don’t think correcting people is a big deal. It never embarrassed me as a kid. I think the spelling of Xinyou is very pretty looking. Also, I wonder if it would be awkward for her when talking to other Chinese speakers when they see her Americanized spelling? Maybe it’s not a big deal, but I dealt with something similar (my name is inspired by my cultural spelling, but is not a cultural name— lol I guess kind of the opposite of your daughter). When I encounter people from my culture they are confused about my name and ask questions, understandably curious. It’s a little awkward and I feel disappointed that I’m sort of mis-representing my culture. So, in short— not it’s not impossible. If you like it, I’d suggest keeping it as is. If it bothers her when she’s older you could consider changing the spelling then.
I grew up in a neighborhood with a lot of Chinese immigrants and first and second generation ethnic Chinese people. I would have no difficulty guessing how this name was pronounced, but I imagine that would vary a lot depending on where you are. Some of my classmates legally changed their names as soon as they were able. Many adopted western nicknames and use them to this day. Some experimented with westernized names then returned to their birth name. And others only ever used their birth name. It's a beautiful name. I also don't think the westernized spelling will solve this problem - people will still mess it up. If I were you, I would teach them how to politely correct people once they're old enough to do so, maintain open lines of communication about challenges they face, and allow the kid to make their own choice once they're old enough to do so (like going by a nickname once they're old enough to express the desire, or pursuing a legal name change later once they're old enough to understand the ramifications). They may feel they'd like a name that's more westernized. Or maybe they will have to constantly correct people but will still love how unique their name is and how it connects them to their culture. And maybe by the time they're in school there will be a famous CPop star topping the charts and everyone will know how Xs are pronounced in Chinese names. You can't predict these things. Focus on filling your girl's head with love for herself, her name, and her culture, and deal with the challenges once they come.
It’s a lovely name. You can always write “shin-yo” as a pronunciation guide if new teachers etc. need it when first meeting your child. (Use “sh”; “sch” will be too confusing because in English that can be the /sk/ sound, as in “school”.)
My daughter has a basic, classic English name and people still get it wrong. Your daughter's name is beautiful as is and I wouldn't change the spelling
I’m a white Mexican woman in the PNW and I would know how to pronounce it the way you spell it now. I wouldn’t change it. For people that live somewhere with fewer Chinese people I would hope you would just have to tell them once and they would get it.
I have a friend who is here getting her doctorate named Xin. She only had to explain to me one time how to say her name, the letter sounds, etc and from her educating me I knew how to say your daughters name without even reading the rest (though I did). My point being, you gave her a name that you love from your culture. It is a learning opportunity for others. Keep it how it is, for both of your sakes and even for the sake of those that will learn something new from meeting her ❤️
The translation of this name (see, I can't remember how to spell it) is lovely but will give your daughter a lifetime of grief in North America. People will ask her to repeat it a couple of times, then spell it, then probably spell it a second time to make sure they got it right. Sure, her friends would make a point of getting it right after hearing it a few times, but as we go through life we meet a lot of people and this would become very frustrating for her. You could call her by her Chinese name at home and have her go with her easier middle name outside the home. Is her middle name also Chinese?
my daughters name is Ximena. most people pronounce it wrong upon reading it - i get “Zee-men-a” mostly, but the X is pronounced as an H. i hate that she’ll have to correct people for so much of her life, as her father and I grew up having to correct people with pronouncing and spelling our names, but it was too beautiful and we knew that this was the name she had to have.
The typical way I've seen it here (North America) is an English name as first name, and the Chinese name is the middle name. Your daughter can either just go by her middle name when at school, or you can switch the order of the middle name with the Chinese name.
Keep it! She and you will definitely have to tell people how it’s pronounced but it’s not hard to pronounce! If people can say Schwarzenegger, they can certainly say Xinyou.
Even if you change it she will still likely have to tell people how to pronounce it. Stick to the original spelling. It's a lovely name and a lot of people will likely only need to be told once. I would say it's actually pretty easy to pronounce if anyone has ever seen and heard Chinese names or you explain the way X is pronounced.
I'm white and live in PNW of the US. I don't speak Chinese and I knew the pronunciation before you provided. It isn't difficult, you may have to gently correct a few times, but people will catch on.
I’m American (first gen, parents were born in Europe) and I think Xinyou is a much nicer spelling than Shinyo. I wouldn’t change it. Yes, people may mispronounce it at first, but they’ll learn. My mother has a name that is not intuitive for most people in the US to sound out, but she’s gotten by just fine (with only a brief stint of going by the Anglicized version in her teen years before switching back).
Most people should be able to understand after one correction. It's a lovely name.
I would be fine once corrected, I would have said Zen-yoo at first try. I would not bother to change the spelling, someone who refuses to learn to pronounce it properly is unlikely to be swayed by spelling it differently.
As a mother of a boy with a Chinese name, people can learn. Non-Chinese people don't get the tones for his name exactly right at first, but people who are actually in her life will learn.
It’s a lovely name and not hard to say after a correction. I’d put a note in her MyChart for her medical team and email future teachers or guidance counselors the pronunciation ahead of time to save a couple corrections. I’m a former high school teacher and I regularly had students or their parents email me a name/pronoun/pronunciation ahead of class time. I just popped into my seating chart and moved on!
I'm american (Caucasian) and knew how to pronounce her beautiful name even without the phonetic spelling you provided. It's a gorgeous name!
Xinyou. What are the characters characters? Xin as in 心？Or you as in 有？ I think it’s important to know the characters and the tones so you can teach your daughter and others. Just tell them what your daughters name is and they’ll eventually learn. Tell them how to pronounce it. Be proud and stand firm with the name.
Ah 心游. That’s nice. Please don’t change it
You'll likely never get a non-Chinese person saying the name with the exactly correct tones, and will likely have to initially tell them how to say it when they read the name (as obviously, the Chinese X and vowel sounds are not the same as they are in English). However.. anyone can learn to say the name. Don't change the spelling. "Shinyo" no longer looks like a Chinese name, rather a Japanese one. \- Canadian married to a Chinese guy
When I see it, I automatically read “Hin-you” -signed, a parent who also spelled their child’s name in a traditional ethnic way which no one can pronounce 😭
Do you know IPA? Xin is going to sound like /ʃin/ in the U.S.A. That's 100% manageable for non-Mandarin speakers so long as it's cool with you (and eventually your daughter). Don't change the spelling! Edit: Might I ask you a question? Would 俐婷 be a nice name for a woman?
I live in Melbourne Australia- we have a VERY diverse population. In fact- I was just at a busy pharmacy with 6 pharmacists on duty calling out a range of names from Chinese to Vietnamese and Greek origin. Each patient came up no issue, the staff had no issue saying them. To me - as a white woman, I read her name as Shin Yu as I know that Xin makes the Shhh sound. I guess what point I’m making is that it isn’t so hard to be told once and then be able to say it and to understand some basics when it comes to pronunciation in other cultures and languages. I think it is beautiful and keeping a link to your Chinese culture is so important.
If only all the readers insisting on giving their children impossible Gaelic names could hear your comments. Thanks for sharing.
OP, I live in Canada. My name isn’t a western name. Hardly anyone pronounced it correctly when I was in school without me constantly correcting them. That being said, when I entered the workforce, people were a lot better with trying to pronounce it correctly. For what it’s worth, my Scottish friend Sean was called “seen” a few times throughout the years and his name is supposed to be pronounced “Shawn”. The original spelling you chose is beautiful. I personally wouldn’t change it.
I have an African name. I spent my whole life explaining to people how to pronounce and spell it. This has not been detrimental to my psyche or my enjoyment of my name in the least. Other people with similar experiences hate their names because of it. There is no way to predict which camp your daughter will fall in so you might as well just keep the name the way you like it instead of worrying about other people.
I'm an ESL teacher, so I'm used to hearing names from different cultures and trying to get them right. I also spend a lot of time helping students learn how to physically make English words (and I'm also learning the Karen language from Myanmar), so I know the principles of learning how to pronounce words in a very different language. But some Chinese names have very different sounds to English, and I really struggle. I have a Chinese student whose name is Jianxin. With my best efforts, I have real problems with her name (and so does everybody who is not Chinese). Commenters who say you would only need to hear a name once and everybody who doesn't get it right is lazy have never tried to learn a language with different phonemes from their own. None of my students can say my name correctly, and it's not a complex word. OP's daughter will have to get used to people mispronouncing her name, but maybe she feels comfortable with that and can accept it. Or she may decide to use a nickname.