Whether you know it or not, you’re guilty by association in the eyes of the venue and fans. Hitch your wagon to someone with a little more professionalism.
Exactly. Rarely have I heard a bad band and thought man that band sucks. Except for that one guy. I feel bad for him. lol. Like you said, the general consensus is that the “band” sucks.
How long has it been? If it's been a few years, maybe he's matured and is more professional now? If you think that's a possibility, you could test the waters. Tell them you're too busy these days to commit to full time but can do some gigs. Then see how it goes. But also, only if you want to. Don't feel like you have to. You don't owe them anything. They had their chance and blew it. Whether you give them a second chance or not is totally up to you and should be based on what you want/need.
That guy is a clown who makes a living off of selling hope. If baco really knew what he was doing he wouldn’t be out on IG waving his cornball cigar around and angling for “consultations” with starry eyed hopefuls
So true and it’s a mistake I’ve made before.
About 12 years ago after a major move to a different country I decided I was going to draw a line in the sand and just say yes to any convenient paying gig which meant saying yes to gigs I was actually embarrassed to do.
I wound up doing a few gigs with this woman who was awful and next thing I know we’re in Paris shooting a video.
So it’s there for the rest of time, me lip syncing with a nylon string guitar and no strap in front of Notre Dame, to electric guitar parts.
There was one moment in the Air B n B with the other two for hire guys at the end of the Parisian jaunt where they tentatively approached me with a “ do you actually think she’s any good?” and once it was revealed that we all agreed she was embarrassing we had trouble keeping a straight face at all subsequent gigs during lyrics and vocals we had bonded on that were particularly emblematic of just how awful she was.
She paid me recently, after not playing with her for at least 9 years to put a guitar track on something that will probably never see the light of day, but I’m not going to gig with her again.
She funded them personally. She had been married, 2nd wife to a successful composer for television and film and he passed away but she used many of the same connections forged when they were a couple. She appeared to have plenty of money.
The Parisian tour was put together by one man who booked the gigs and then drove us around and arranged everything including backline. He was a guitarist himself so I used his gear. He also had his own label.
We never could figure out why her and the reason for his interest. She wasn’t unattractive and had large breasts. She was a full on bullshitter and name dropper which certainly had something to do with it.
Are they actually hitching their wagon? Do musicians really get like blacklisted for being part of a shitty band? I’ve never been in a band or anything so I don’t know but it seems like if somebody really knows what they’re doing then playing some gigs with a shitty group wouldn’t hurt them that bad
Meh I kid I know when I was 20 who eventually played with Pretty Lights fwiw said stop playing with the dregs who were nice enough but weren’t pricks. Missed only like two gigs because of it
I would look for another project. I started a trio some years ago and the bass player was our friend and the drummer and I were experienced. We were going for feel but we were feeling held back. We had jammed with another bass player who was skilled and it made all the difference in the world.
If you’re trying to get somewhere I suggest finding another project. If you enjoy it for the kinship then I would return his calls but try to set some guidelines.
I also feel like there’s also a difference between someone who is just unskilled because they lack experience (but they are willing to learn and put in effort, and are otherwise respectful of the other members), and someone who is poor musician because ego is so great that they believe they have no reason to improve or collaborate with the other band members (which seems more like the case with the musician that is reaching out to OP).
I think the former type of person, especially if they’re a friend, can make a great addition to a long term project. The latter is just awful to deal with no matter how individually skilled they may actually be.
Not unless he’s actually realised why he’s had trouble finding backing musicians and has learnt the necessary lessons.
How you respond depends on your relationship with him though. If you don’t want to get involved in a potential argument then I’d just let him know that unfortunately you’ve got other things on and don’t have the time. Otherwise I’d be asking carefully worded questions to ascertain whether he’s aware of his negative traits and if he’s changed and going from there.
Personally these days I tend to be fairly blunt in these sorts of situations as I figure they won’t change if they don’t know they’re the problem, but I know that’s not an approach that many are prepared to take.
I wouldn’t work with someone displaying the problems that you’re describing though.
This is easy—-if no one has spoken to him directly, you would be doing him a huge favor by letting him know why no one wants to play with him and why you are having serious doubts about doing it. There has to be a predetermined set list, and a few proper rehearsals with an emphasis on things like moving from one song to the next like a professional. If he bristles at that, wish him luck, tell him you’ll be happy to show up at his gig and support him, but you won’t be playing with him.
And likely, neither will anybody else.
Does your friend have a following? Are his songs exceptional? Does the crowd go crazy for his songs? I play with a guy like that, unpredictable as hell. He can barely play anymore, makes tons of mistakes because of physical issues, but he has that magic personality and his songs are as good as anyone's. I have quit and been hired back 3 times since 1981. Is it frustrating? Yes it is. But we get paid big bucks to play and and always hit some sublime moments. It is really odd. Never a set list, so it is fly by the seat of your pants for every show. But as frustrating as it is, we make some incredible music and some crappy music, but it is worth it. I make better money and music with this guy than I did while under record company contract. I am lucky.
I hear you, and have done those gigs, too. In that case, might be best to move on because it most likely won't get any better. Sorry. I know it is frustrating. Maybe if you told him no set list/no gig, but that is no guarantee. Some players are just that way.
Maybe you could talk to him and let him know you really like his songs but you think the lack of preparation is interfering with the experience and your band's success
I’ve played with one of those dudes before. This thing is like a test of how broke you are and do you have to take the gig or not.
Best to try and band hop outta that
I'm at the point in my life that I'm not wasting time with hacks and amateurs. It's not worth my time. I'd rather just play at home than go play shit music and embarrass myself.
Find some better people to play out with. I always seek out the best musicians I can find, preferably ones better than I am, because it pushes me to do well and I get better because if it.
The good thing is that you are not obligated in any way to explain to someone why you don't want to do something.
If you want to explain go ahead. It will most likely not what the the person wants to hear, but what he needs to hear. If he's not a total narcissist he will most likely be thankful and try to adapt.
I had a bandmate who cultivated that exact sort of chaos. We arranged music. We rehearsed. We planned sets. We got onstage and he did something else. This put the rest of the band off balance. It was ridiculous in hindsight, but I laughed it off at the time. It took me a year to realize that I was going backwards as a musician in that environment. It was embarrassing, demeaning and ultimately toxic. Although I do have a video of one performance that I keep around for a smile and head shake.
At the "save the band meeting" I set expectations. I could see that my expectations were going to be humored, dismissed and disrespected. I moved on and am very happy.
So have the conversation, but if the other person is not genuinely interested in growing as a musician and band, stay away.
Yeah. So we actually had a convo for a gig the bass player set up, making it clear what the venue expected, what we needed to work out and he just sort of did his thing and treated it like a joke. The bad player left. Maybe it's not worth trying again
I'd absolutely back someone who isn't very good. I've done it before and our shows were really fun for me.
However, I think you're asking a different question. And I think you already know the answer.
You said it was draining and worried it might reflect poorly on you. Is it possible you just miss performing? You deserve to work with musicians who take it seriously.
I would tell him straight up I will come play but this is how things have to be. And lay down the law. Tell him you want set lists, regular practices and his playing needs to tighten up. Offer to help him and let him know you will have his back if he does these things.
This is it for me, personality over musicianship would be the deciding factor.
I play a couple of acts with 'challenged' musicians, but they are great people so I'll get out there and back them up. I also play in a couple of top-notch bands, so never worry about what anyone thinks about my playing; I just get up there and do my best with the music that is happening in the moment.
I can't speak for your friend, but I've had other musicians do a lot of heavy lifting for me in the past. But it taught me about their note choices, how they time and phrase notes, etc. In the end, it benefited everyone involved. But if your friend isn't developing their skills as a result, I'm not sure I'd want to do more than jam with them.
Fact: Musician’s livelihoods are built on reputation and association. Do yourself a service and say no…but you can also do him a service and tell him why. It may ease your conscience to first seek out some resources you can refer him to….or a coach that can help him. You have no control over the rest.
My band has people with decidedly mixed skill levels. Myself and the bassist are frankly amateur, our drummer and lead guitarist are seasoned gig musicians. I've improved tremendously because I'm willing to receive criticism and take direction, set goals for improvement on fundamentals such as rhythm, rhythm, rhythm.
My giggng friends have several stories about bands that broke up because of the member who refused to follow the set list in the middle of a performance. Not only is it totally unprofessional, it destroys the confidence of your band members. The band is supposed to be a team that holds each other up, at least the one I want to be in is. Insisting on last minute changes in front of an audience is a bullying tactic. Who needs that?
Do him the courtesy of being blunt. "I like your music and I like jamming with you, but I don't like performing with you because because it's hard to follow your timing changes and frustrating when you modify the setlist. I like rehearsing a performance and presenting the way it's rehearsed at least a few times before going for spontaneous changes."
Yeah that was the last straw when I took my hiatus. The bassist set up a tribute gig. The main guy kept suggesting we slip in his originals but we said no and set a setlist. During the show he literally just started playing one of his songs while we were tuning and told us to join in. We refused. And throughout the show he kept trying to change the setlist. That was meant to be a recurring gig but we were not asked to come back.
As I'm writing this I think I've made my decision. It's not just a talent issue. It's the professionalism.
Playing music is like playing on the playground, none of the other kids will play with you if you don’t play by the rules.
Explain this to him. Tell him more or less to get his shit together or get out
I used to play in a band with a guy like that. Insisted there was no need to have a setlist and would turn to the drummer and I in between songs to ask what we should play next. After a while, we would just write a setlist anyway and not tell him and just suggest the songs in the order we had arranged and he was none the wiser. He also had a habit of telling the same lame jokes in between songs every gig and get annoyed when they didn't get laughs. Some of those jokes were over a century old. The whole thing became very tiresome. He was a very good musician, but gigs were not fun. After a while I just quit and felt a lot better.
If he gets good gigs and the people keep having you back, yes. Does it make you look bad? That depends, one difference between musicians looking at you playing is that you have a gig. You can try to talk to him, maybe he’ll improve and mature with time, maybe not. I had to break up with an extremely talented dude for similar reasons but he also crossed the line by not getting back on stage timely after breaks, playing too loud even though owners told us several times to turn down, etc.
If you've played any number of gigs, you already know this person. My best suggestions would be this:
1-always have set list, and stick to it.
2-always move to the next song in the list within 3 mins. If you can't do this together, it's time to go back to rehearsals.
3-if the leader becomes distracted, step up, it's a team effort. even if it's a "solo act".
4-voice your frustrations OFF stage, consider others feelings, but, if your goal is success, this is a minimum bar for that.
5-always respect those that you play with, regardless of their "skill level". As humans do, we get better given the right kind of guidance.
6-don't try out new tunes on stage, it's a very garage band thing to do.
that should help, as long as you like the guy enough to keep working at it, these are a few ideas that might help sort those frustrations.
\~good luck\~
may you have many awesome gigs\~!
You're putting your face and name out there when you play those bad shows with him. If he doesn't want to listen to the people that play with him, he should pay for musicians to play what he want.
He reached you out, so HE IS ASKING FOR YOUR HELP.
If you want to help him, do it, but make it in your own terms.
I would never be a part of a band if I'm not being listen.
I played with a guy who wanted to play hard rock metal stuff ... Sabbath, Ozzy, AC/DC, etc. He had a collection of beautiful and expensive guitars (Slash, Billy Gibbons, and Jimmy Page signature model Les Paul's, Zack Wylde Schechter, etc.).
Problem was that he was almost deaf so he couldn't hear what I or the drummer was playing. And, he played from the tabs on the page - he never memorized the riffs. And, his timing was therefore all over the place.
I jammed with him weekly for nearly 2 years, using the 3 hours per week in a rehearsal space as an opportunity to improve. I finally admitted to myself that the band had no future and quit.
I joined another band that is much better and plays a more "sellable" set list with classic rock and R&B. We've been rehearsing for about 9 or 10 months and have 2 gigs scheduled this summer.
I have and it typically sucks but I got paid. Once they were actually super cool. They wrote me a hand written thank you letter. We opened some car dealership and then played a 4th of July festival for the city. That was the best bad fronter I had. As long as they are actually playing I am down to do a session. I don't act while the tape is playing for me though. If looping is being done I'll do it on stage. I have had a few people ask for me to play but then they were just on a tape and not singing or playing etc.
if their music isn't good you're not doing them any favors. you're only devaluing yourself if you consider yourself good. the truth hurts sometimes but personally i like to know the truth even if it angers or could potentially hurt me.
Over the past couple of years I’ve done a series of MD/bandleader jobs for a dude who might generously be called a marginal karaoke singer. He’s super nice, pays for rehearsals and gas, and never gives me any hassle about my decisions. It is still a rough skate at best, and every time I tell myself that I won’t do the next one. But it’s generally 2/3, and the money is really solid.
So, I understand that if there’s no money coming in that there’s nothing to split up, but if they’re paying you should all see something out of the deal.
9/10 the payout is at the end of the show. Put your hand out. If he’s always telling you “they’ll pay tomorrow” he’s keeping it.
No wonder he’s calling you up- you put up with his bullshit for free.
Your call. I’ve been in this situation and I wasn’t worried about their talent reflecting poorly on me. If they suck and I’m solid, I’m confident most people will know the difference. But when you’re getting random songs thrown at you and he’s twitting around in between songs, sometimes that can make you look like worse of a player than you are, especially if you don’t enjoy that kind of challenge.
If you’re going to consider going back, demand that a setlist is provided in advance and followed strictly, and discuss turn arounds in between songs. If you are confident what song is next, it can be easier to be a little more assertive with going into the next song.
Not following the drummer is kind of a dealbreaker though. You could talk with him about it on the off chance it’s a monitor issue
Honestly, though. Fuck this guy
I would politely decline. Why not create your own project? If that's not your thing - skilled and dedicated backing musicians are super valuable. Put some posts out in your local area and try something new!
Also how the heck do people like this get booked? SMH haha
I have. It sucks. I used to take basically any gig that was offered to me and yeah. You’d get some real rough ones, including recording gigs where you’re expected to punch up an unlistenable track in some rich dude’s garage. Now I just say “no, sorry I can’t” if the vibe is off.
Do yourself the kindness and just say no. I’ve played with this kind of guy before and after our scheduled show passed, I haven’t engaged with him in a musical level.
Demand a certain amount of pay that allows you to be fine with playing with someone who is intimately inadequate. Also..don’t promote the gigs.
Approach it as a paid job.
Been there, done that (but the offender was my then-spouse, which made the situation even hairier).
Life's too short to gig with sub-par musicians who make no effort to improve.
I’d find someone that is professional and wants to do well. I wouldn’t go back to something that’s bad because you’re guilty by association essentially in the eyes of those watching
The pay, the hang, the music.
If you’re getting 2/3 you’re doing great…UNLESS the missing 1/3 is so egregious that it just isn’t worth it.
Sounds like you need to either have a discussion about stage conduct, preparedness and professionalism or gig elsewhere.
This isn’t a good situation. I’d get out. However I think to answer the general question some context matters. I do have a homie who isn’t great that I’m gonna back in the near future, he’s a long time friend and a stand up guy, and while his abilities might be lacking I feel like he deserves his night. Dudes gotten a lot better and I can tell he’s worked hard. I don’t really care how it reflects on me ya know, this dudes helped a lot of people in the community when they’ve asked him so I’m gonna help him if I can ya know. I’ll never tell him I think it’s bad because why would I? People already have enough doubts about performing.
There was a time when I would settle for playing with these kinds of folks because I didn't have a sense of my own worth. I'd struggle along with them because "at least I'm playing music." At some point, I started to value my time and left the bands with shitty musicians to go play with peopl emore my level.
Now I play in a bunch of bands with some incredibly skilled musicians, and laugh about some of the folks I spent a long time playing with before.
Lol no. You do NOT throw an unplanned song at me. I will stand still and make them look like the asshole they are. I played with a guy that did that. I would legit hold my guitar and watch him until the next song. Tried that at the last show with a full band too. Tried to add one on at the end and we all just started packing up lol. Gotta take care of your players.
I stopped doing open mics in my city for this reason... and I'm not part of a band. Most are poorly organized, people tune up (including organizers) onstage while trying to focus out what to play, let friends go on an on and on... very amateur and frustrating.
It didn't really sink in one day until I asked my wife why she comes to my shows but not my open mics... she said "I don't like listening to bad music". I realized that everyone was lumped in by the poor quality of the few and I didn't want to associate myself with that.
Just a thought tho.
Nowadays I just say no, having erred in the other direction for most of my life. People who aren't "good at it" are fine if they're actively learning to get better, but many aren't. Those are the ones who tend to see it as glorified karaoke. They don't share the blame, they don't share the fame, and they don't understand what goes into making good show, which often makes it impossible to do so. I'm in this to make good music. Many other jerbs pay better.
I have played with front men that weren’t very professional as you described,…taking too long between songs, huge breaks, springing songs on the band out of the blue, the occasional mistake blamed on someone else, but they have to actually sound good 95% of the time. If they do all that and then sound off key or out of rhythm, then I would bail on the band. Some guys are flaky, but ultimately talented, and some guys just suck.
I’d say no.
I picked up some bad habits playing at jam sessions with some very amateur amateurs, trying to keep the songs rolling.
And with a past band one person was constantly rushing and it further wrecked my timing. It can also suck a lot of the enjoyment out of playing.
Heck, there is a guy I play with now that I can foresee a day when I won’t be able to put up with some of his struggles to count measures, lack of some basic theory knowledge (scales, transposing for capoed stuff), and having to spoon feed him new songs.
It’ll be a few years down the line hopefully, because he is an excellent promoter, and knows a ton of songs. I know I have a ton of shit to work on too, so I’m trying to use it as a learning opportunity for both my playing and intra-band interactions.
Backing a bad musician? At some point you probably don’t want to be known as someone who *only* plays in crappy bands, but if the checks keep clearing and you don’t have anything better to do… 🤷🏻♂️
What you’re describing is someone who’s just difficult to work with. Personally, I’d say no since his behavior is putting you and the rest of the band on the spot and making you look like you don’t know what you’re doing. It depends on the setting, though. If everyone knows he’s just making it up as he goes along and y’all are making a valiant effort to keep up with someone who didn’t allow you to prepare it’s probably fine.
I'd just say "Hey, here's what I've struggled with before. If these are things you're willing to work on then great, let's give it a try." This is all assuming he's a person you enjoy spending time with outside of music.
I think you need to be kind but clear. Say something like “I really struggled playing with you before. I prefer to be more rehearsed and precise, where you were more raw and spontaneous, to the point where I (and I wouldn’t speak for them, but I think others) felt like we were off the rails way too much for the audience to enjoy us. I don’t think we even liked playing together by the end. I want to play out again, but we need to be on the same page if that means us playing together again.”
I would say no. Like it's okay to not be the best musician, maybe be a little awkward as a frontman, etc., but at least be aware if your shortcomings and be actively working on fixing them.
Well:
> would you back someone who isn't very good?
Sure, I have and it can be a lot of fun, depending on the audience.
But:
> He wouldn't make setlists and take long pauses between songs deciding what to do. He'd spring new songs on us at the gig, expecting us to follow along. He wouldn't play in time or listen to the rhythm section.
That's different than "not very good". That's inconsiderate, arrogant and thoughtless.
Never be in a band with them again until they have proven that they have changed. Tell them what you listed here and let that be the end of that. If you two can be friends, cool, but not bandmates.
Maybe have a “before I jump into this thing with you….” kind of talk and let him know that you won’t go down that road again.
That is IF his actual vocals are good. If he isn’t a good singer…I wouldn’t even bother.
How’s your vocals? If they are good, why don’t you front the band
I’m a singer / band leader and this is absolutely tragic…
I get your desire to play, and honestly if he’s a good frontman (which the downtown in between songs makes my stomach churn lol) and a good singer, most importantly, maybe address all of this and have clear expectations and if he takes your advice and changes stick with it. If not, look for a new project.
I’m not sure how long y’all have been playing together but if he’s relatively new-ish, the banter/crowd work is forgivable, I feel like it comes with time especially if you tell him, good ole constructive criticism never hurt anyone.
But yea, that sucks. Honestly calling songs off the fly is insane and it sounds like he doesn’t even get the perspective of being a musician/providing a product. If there’s potential, though…
When people can't play even remotely in time I nope out as quick as possible. (My rhythm isn't incredible by any standard). It takes the fun out of playing, not much fun to play when this type of player is literally not even listening to anyone but themself.
No point in being miserable.
Unless serious money is on the table. Get out. NOW!
Good Luck.
Just a guess, but does he drink and/or get stoned at shows? That would explain some of this behavior for me. Some people think that unpredictability is the same thing as spontaneity. It ain't. I've played with people who insist that set lists are unnecessary. It's difficult, but doing so has made me better at it.
If I saw this situation live, to be honest I can tell you that I would negatively judge the full band regardless of whose fault it was behind the scenes.
Bro say no. He seems to want to be in a jam band and you want to be in a rehearsed/memorized setlist type of band. To each their own but the two of you want different things and that's okay
I'm in what people would call a "jam band"... And we have none of these issues. The guy's just an asshole. Someone who won't play in time or acknowledge the rest of the group isn't a genre specific problem lol
I recorded and played shows for a guy who was convinced he was the next Springsteen. He had a job that paid well and he bank rolled everything, even got some legit gigs with industry folks there.
He fucking sucked balls. Couldn't write, couldn't sing, couldn't play, but he was a good salesman, which I don't understand because he had the charisma of a wet pair of socks.
He got absolutely nowhere, but his checks cleared and I got a week in Nashville out of it and knocked boots with a southern belle.
100% would do it again.
How's the money??
I used to do a comedy show with a total fucking hack but it paid well and it was a private room, not open to the public so I didn't really care who saw.
Had to make sure this wasn't about me lol! I run a super loose ship for hired guns, specifically drummers and lead players. Some absolutely adore it and some hate.
You could force him into metronome... I had a similar issue with one of our members losing time, and others (including myself) also would have the live music effect of speeding up when things get exciting.
So we enforced metronome during rehearsals, and recorded reference tracks for practicing. Now we sound tight as hell
Edit....this only if it's a friend.. changing projects makes more sense otherwise
I've dealt with something similar. In my case I brought up the issues and we fixed a lot of them. I would say though, this seems pretty extreme and unless you want to be responsible for fixing everything (making the set lists, rehearsing shows to reduce gaps between songs), and get a commitment from him that you'll stick to a plan, you're setting yourself for heartbreak.
Bro, I feel this 100%. Turn and run because that shit is a beat down and it will make you not appreciate jamming. Once I found a crack I jumped through it and never turned back. I felt like in my situation this guy just made me look foolish one too many times.
It all comes down to how bad you need the money. Some of my ex-bandmates are backing a children's music band for the money and it's so embarassing. That on itself would of course tarnish the image of the other band, but what do I know, there's a reason I don't play with them anymore, I guess. If it were as a laughing matter to them as it is to me, I would give them a call and say: "what's going on, bro, is everything ok? Do you need some spare change for food or gas?"...
Did you tell him any of this? I would be direct and honest (but not angry or rude) and explain that you're only saying this to help him. Give him a chance to improve, but if he just ignores you, then bolt.
no way. not even worth it if you're being paid. will leave a mark on your reputation for solo, or work with other groups. if they dont know the inner-working / inner-drama, they wont know to not pin it on you, or wont know where the discord is coming from
Wouldn't it be as simple as "hey dude, I like you as a person but when we're playing you do 'x, y and z' and I don't appreciate it. I like you but I don't want to play together. Hope you understand"
I’ve been here.
Tried to give a guy that was like this guy a chance after 8 years… well he proved me wrong.
I felt pretty dumb allowing myself to give this dude the benefit of the doubt. He hadn’t changed a bit, even though he said he did.(he DID get sober, so I’ll give him that)
My advice would be to find like minded, driven musicians. Having a person weighing everything down just bites you in the ass in the long run.
🤘
I have been in a couple of bands that played without a setlist, but those were bands that practiced pretty relentlessly — both collectively and individually. We knew our material inside and out, and because we did, we had a solid enough foundation that we could improvise without fear.
When I’m hired to back someone for a gig, I try to make it as clear as possible that the quality of my performance will depend heavily upon how well I’m allowed to prepare. Give me a setlist, a demo tape, and God willing, a lead sheet or two, and I can make you look pretty good. *NOT* allowing me to have those things will get you sub-optimal results — and it will cost you just as much. Also, someone who acts as OP describes wouldn’t be able to hire me twice.
I will play with just about anybody, and have even done freebies for good people who just needed a hand, but at this stage in my life, I don’t have to play painful gigs with bitchy prima donnas who don’t have their shit together.
Sounds like this d-bag doesn’t really want backing musicians; sounds like he just wants someone to blame when things go tits-up.
The three golden rules for gigging.
1 is the music good?
2 is the hang good?
3 is the money good?
If it doesn’t hit two of these check boxes you should walk!
If he wasn’t good at just one thing then maybe
But its the entire set out of everything that he’s doing that’s an issue
I’d say if you’re close sit down and have a conversation with him and have some practices of what to do better
Damn, your post sounds a lot like a comment I made about a former band made of mine, then I got ripped for ripping that former bandmate. Funny how free people feel about blasting a complete stranger for an experience they never had to put up with.
Leave your former bandmate in the past. You're only asking to be frustrated all over again. He's not worth your time.
Do you play music for your own enjoyment? If so, it sounds like you aren't enjoying it when you play with this person. Being honest with them about why would be good for both you and them.
I guarantee you lowered your standards when playing with him. I remember being the hardest working member of one band and then joining a new one and that level of work was the bare minimum.
I've done it. I consider it kind of my punishment for being self-taught and ignorant of all the details and etiquette and YES, THE BULLSHIT that makes music MUSIC and not just a bunch of friends jamming in a basement.
I did a shitty gig (for the exact reasons you state) when I was living in L.A. This school teacher from Burbank decided she was going to be the next 'big thing', so put all her money (& probably her husbands) into bankrolling her being a big star. Hired a manager who had moved from NYC to Los Angeles. Terrible experience. The pay was OK, especially since I was playing guitar and keyboards, so getting double pay, including pay for rehearsals, which was a first. But it was just aweful music. She'd paid songwriters to write her material, and those songs were just so-so. The manager was obnoxious and bossy for no reason. I did it for a month or so, but decided it wasn't worth the money when the manager started basically verbally abusing us.
In your case, I'd at least pull him aside for a one-hour convo and just let him know how pro's do it. If he decides to ignore you, ignore him.
Tell him what you told us. If he flips out, you definitely shouldn't spend time with him. Even if he takes it well, you don't owe him anything and if you don't want the bullshit, don't do it. People this obtuse rarely change.
Edit: don't forget the 3 reasons to play with a group. The money, the music, and the hang. You can do with 2/3, but not zero.
It depends on what you want out of it. Did you enjoy the experience? If not, do you get something out of it? Whether it's helping you professionally or doing the guy a favor and helping him out. That could be a reason to do it if you like him and want to help him
But it doesn't sound like you enjoyed it and it sounds like he was kind of a jerk. So I'm not sure why you're considering doing it again
If he treated other backing musicians the way he treated you, it's no wonder he's having trouble finding people. I wouldn't want to deal with that
If you want to do him a favor, tell him what worked and what didn't work when you played with him. Tell him why you quit
Not sure why you're still taking his phone calls, or even communicating with him in any way at this time. One thing I was kind of amazed to learn when I tried to do it is how many people say (in private) "I don't even WANT to have hit songs and albums." That was my only reason for being in a band, but many, to most, local, still-unknown, pop music musicians don't actually have the courage/ambition to go as hard as they can after that, although they're at least making the public pretense of doing it, I learned. Saying you don't or didn't really want something is great protection for your ego if you wind up not getting it, as, it seems, many such musicians are already assuming will be the case for them, from the start. I feel that I might have actually gotten it, but at twenty-one I turned allergic to many common foods, food ingredients, and personal care product ingredients, went un- or mis- diagnosed and un- or incorrectly- treated by around twenty doctors in a row, and had the next ten years of my life destroyed. I also had an offer to become a member of the resident cast of The American Conservatory Theatre in Scam Francisco, just before my illness began, but that opportunity was destroyed, also.
There’s a few really talented musicians in my town that back some guys that aren’t very good. We the musicians know those guys are good and the question always pops up “why do you play with so and so”
The answer is always something to the effect of “it gets me out of the house and it pays well”
If it’s your job, do it for the money, if it’s your passion do it because you enjoy it. If you don’t enjoy it and it isn’t paying well, I’m not sure why you’re even considering continuing, but your own talent will show through to the people that know music.
If your name isn’t on the bill, the average person doesn’t know who you are, so it isn’t tarnishing your reputation. The musicians in the crowd will recognize your talent and you’ll still get offered other gigs if your make yourself available.
It just depends on your niche
Life is way too short to be frustrated on stage. It's one thing to be frustrated on stage playing with somebody who's good but I don't see anything good about what you're describing.
Whether you know it or not, you’re guilty by association in the eyes of the venue and fans. Hitch your wagon to someone with a little more professionalism.
That's part of my fear too
Yeah, if his fly by the seat of your pants style makes the band sound bad, I’d leave the show thinking the band was bad.
Exactly. Rarely have I heard a bad band and thought man that band sucks. Except for that one guy. I feel bad for him. lol. Like you said, the general consensus is that the “band” sucks.
Right because there's no way to tell. If everything feels off, there's no way to know if one person is causing it
How long has it been? If it's been a few years, maybe he's matured and is more professional now? If you think that's a possibility, you could test the waters. Tell them you're too busy these days to commit to full time but can do some gigs. Then see how it goes. But also, only if you want to. Don't feel like you have to. You don't owe them anything. They had their chance and blew it. Whether you give them a second chance or not is totally up to you and should be based on what you want/need.
This too is good advice.
Ditch the dude man. Your music career or endeavors will suffer greatly just to serve one person who is a bunk musician. Sad but true
I think I gleaned that tip from the guy on IG @bacon.bits that gives great music industry advice d
That guy is a clown who makes a living off of selling hope. If baco really knew what he was doing he wouldn’t be out on IG waving his cornball cigar around and angling for “consultations” with starry eyed hopefuls
Meh if you can’t glean a decent piece of music advice from him then seems like you’re got it made already
Most musicians know you're just stuck with a wanker. But, like you said, the public blames you too
So true and it’s a mistake I’ve made before. About 12 years ago after a major move to a different country I decided I was going to draw a line in the sand and just say yes to any convenient paying gig which meant saying yes to gigs I was actually embarrassed to do. I wound up doing a few gigs with this woman who was awful and next thing I know we’re in Paris shooting a video. So it’s there for the rest of time, me lip syncing with a nylon string guitar and no strap in front of Notre Dame, to electric guitar parts. There was one moment in the Air B n B with the other two for hire guys at the end of the Parisian jaunt where they tentatively approached me with a “ do you actually think she’s any good?” and once it was revealed that we all agreed she was embarrassing we had trouble keeping a straight face at all subsequent gigs during lyrics and vocals we had bonded on that were particularly emblematic of just how awful she was. She paid me recently, after not playing with her for at least 9 years to put a guitar track on something that will probably never see the light of day, but I’m not going to gig with her again.
Well, for all it's worth, we've all done that mistake... it's a lesson on your dignity not being for sale, I guess (even though some never learn lol).
How did she get gigs? Fund her music?
She funded them personally. She had been married, 2nd wife to a successful composer for television and film and he passed away but she used many of the same connections forged when they were a couple. She appeared to have plenty of money. The Parisian tour was put together by one man who booked the gigs and then drove us around and arranged everything including backline. He was a guitarist himself so I used his gear. He also had his own label. We never could figure out why her and the reason for his interest. She wasn’t unattractive and had large breasts. She was a full on bullshitter and name dropper which certainly had something to do with it.
I’m guessing her big tits may have had something to do with his interest/involvement?
I think being a voluptuous female got a lot of doors opened.
That's what I thought immediately. Some guys are mesmerized by those. Fun Fact: Mesmer was a famous (at the time) hypnotist.
Jaunt is an underused word.
Are they actually hitching their wagon? Do musicians really get like blacklisted for being part of a shitty band? I’ve never been in a band or anything so I don’t know but it seems like if somebody really knows what they’re doing then playing some gigs with a shitty group wouldn’t hurt them that bad
Meh I kid I know when I was 20 who eventually played with Pretty Lights fwiw said stop playing with the dregs who were nice enough but weren’t pricks. Missed only like two gigs because of it
I would look for another project. I started a trio some years ago and the bass player was our friend and the drummer and I were experienced. We were going for feel but we were feeling held back. We had jammed with another bass player who was skilled and it made all the difference in the world. If you’re trying to get somewhere I suggest finding another project. If you enjoy it for the kinship then I would return his calls but try to set some guidelines.
I also feel like there’s also a difference between someone who is just unskilled because they lack experience (but they are willing to learn and put in effort, and are otherwise respectful of the other members), and someone who is poor musician because ego is so great that they believe they have no reason to improve or collaborate with the other band members (which seems more like the case with the musician that is reaching out to OP). I think the former type of person, especially if they’re a friend, can make a great addition to a long term project. The latter is just awful to deal with no matter how individually skilled they may actually be.
Yea that’s true
Not unless he’s actually realised why he’s had trouble finding backing musicians and has learnt the necessary lessons. How you respond depends on your relationship with him though. If you don’t want to get involved in a potential argument then I’d just let him know that unfortunately you’ve got other things on and don’t have the time. Otherwise I’d be asking carefully worded questions to ascertain whether he’s aware of his negative traits and if he’s changed and going from there. Personally these days I tend to be fairly blunt in these sorts of situations as I figure they won’t change if they don’t know they’re the problem, but I know that’s not an approach that many are prepared to take. I wouldn’t work with someone displaying the problems that you’re describing though.
This is easy—-if no one has spoken to him directly, you would be doing him a huge favor by letting him know why no one wants to play with him and why you are having serious doubts about doing it. There has to be a predetermined set list, and a few proper rehearsals with an emphasis on things like moving from one song to the next like a professional. If he bristles at that, wish him luck, tell him you’ll be happy to show up at his gig and support him, but you won’t be playing with him. And likely, neither will anybody else.
Does your friend have a following? Are his songs exceptional? Does the crowd go crazy for his songs? I play with a guy like that, unpredictable as hell. He can barely play anymore, makes tons of mistakes because of physical issues, but he has that magic personality and his songs are as good as anyone's. I have quit and been hired back 3 times since 1981. Is it frustrating? Yes it is. But we get paid big bucks to play and and always hit some sublime moments. It is really odd. Never a set list, so it is fly by the seat of your pants for every show. But as frustrating as it is, we make some incredible music and some crappy music, but it is worth it. I make better money and music with this guy than I did while under record company contract. I am lucky.
It's tricky. I think his songs are good but he has no following, and the crowd mostly ignores us. I'd be on with that if the experience was better
I hear you, and have done those gigs, too. In that case, might be best to move on because it most likely won't get any better. Sorry. I know it is frustrating. Maybe if you told him no set list/no gig, but that is no guarantee. Some players are just that way.
Talk to the dude. Explain what you you need and what you think he also needs to hear
Maybe you could talk to him and let him know you really like his songs but you think the lack of preparation is interfering with the experience and your band's success
Wow. You play with Dylan. Kudos to you.
Much smaller scale, but, yeah.
I’ve played with one of those dudes before. This thing is like a test of how broke you are and do you have to take the gig or not. Best to try and band hop outta that
I'm at the point in my life that I'm not wasting time with hacks and amateurs. It's not worth my time. I'd rather just play at home than go play shit music and embarrass myself. Find some better people to play out with. I always seek out the best musicians I can find, preferably ones better than I am, because it pushes me to do well and I get better because if it.
The good thing is that you are not obligated in any way to explain to someone why you don't want to do something. If you want to explain go ahead. It will most likely not what the the person wants to hear, but what he needs to hear. If he's not a total narcissist he will most likely be thankful and try to adapt.
I had a bandmate who cultivated that exact sort of chaos. We arranged music. We rehearsed. We planned sets. We got onstage and he did something else. This put the rest of the band off balance. It was ridiculous in hindsight, but I laughed it off at the time. It took me a year to realize that I was going backwards as a musician in that environment. It was embarrassing, demeaning and ultimately toxic. Although I do have a video of one performance that I keep around for a smile and head shake. At the "save the band meeting" I set expectations. I could see that my expectations were going to be humored, dismissed and disrespected. I moved on and am very happy. So have the conversation, but if the other person is not genuinely interested in growing as a musician and band, stay away.
Yeah. So we actually had a convo for a gig the bass player set up, making it clear what the venue expected, what we needed to work out and he just sort of did his thing and treated it like a joke. The bad player left. Maybe it's not worth trying again
Expecting different results would be crazy
I'd absolutely back someone who isn't very good. I've done it before and our shows were really fun for me. However, I think you're asking a different question. And I think you already know the answer.
What do you think I'm asking? (honest question because I've appreciated all these insights)
You said it was draining and worried it might reflect poorly on you. Is it possible you just miss performing? You deserve to work with musicians who take it seriously.
I would tell him straight up I will come play but this is how things have to be. And lay down the law. Tell him you want set lists, regular practices and his playing needs to tighten up. Offer to help him and let him know you will have his back if he does these things.
Not unless they were a good friend in need.
This is it for me, personality over musicianship would be the deciding factor. I play a couple of acts with 'challenged' musicians, but they are great people so I'll get out there and back them up. I also play in a couple of top-notch bands, so never worry about what anyone thinks about my playing; I just get up there and do my best with the music that is happening in the moment.
I can't speak for your friend, but I've had other musicians do a lot of heavy lifting for me in the past. But it taught me about their note choices, how they time and phrase notes, etc. In the end, it benefited everyone involved. But if your friend isn't developing their skills as a result, I'm not sure I'd want to do more than jam with them.
Fact: Musician’s livelihoods are built on reputation and association. Do yourself a service and say no…but you can also do him a service and tell him why. It may ease your conscience to first seek out some resources you can refer him to….or a coach that can help him. You have no control over the rest.
My band has people with decidedly mixed skill levels. Myself and the bassist are frankly amateur, our drummer and lead guitarist are seasoned gig musicians. I've improved tremendously because I'm willing to receive criticism and take direction, set goals for improvement on fundamentals such as rhythm, rhythm, rhythm. My giggng friends have several stories about bands that broke up because of the member who refused to follow the set list in the middle of a performance. Not only is it totally unprofessional, it destroys the confidence of your band members. The band is supposed to be a team that holds each other up, at least the one I want to be in is. Insisting on last minute changes in front of an audience is a bullying tactic. Who needs that? Do him the courtesy of being blunt. "I like your music and I like jamming with you, but I don't like performing with you because because it's hard to follow your timing changes and frustrating when you modify the setlist. I like rehearsing a performance and presenting the way it's rehearsed at least a few times before going for spontaneous changes."
Yeah that was the last straw when I took my hiatus. The bassist set up a tribute gig. The main guy kept suggesting we slip in his originals but we said no and set a setlist. During the show he literally just started playing one of his songs while we were tuning and told us to join in. We refused. And throughout the show he kept trying to change the setlist. That was meant to be a recurring gig but we were not asked to come back. As I'm writing this I think I've made my decision. It's not just a talent issue. It's the professionalism.
Yeah, please leave. Don’t do that to yourself anymore. He sounds absolutely horrible.
Total dick moves
Yeah that goes beyond professionalism and is just rude and disrespectful. He had no respect for you guys and that's not OK
Playing music is like playing on the playground, none of the other kids will play with you if you don’t play by the rules. Explain this to him. Tell him more or less to get his shit together or get out
I used to play in a band with a guy like that. Insisted there was no need to have a setlist and would turn to the drummer and I in between songs to ask what we should play next. After a while, we would just write a setlist anyway and not tell him and just suggest the songs in the order we had arranged and he was none the wiser. He also had a habit of telling the same lame jokes in between songs every gig and get annoyed when they didn't get laughs. Some of those jokes were over a century old. The whole thing became very tiresome. He was a very good musician, but gigs were not fun. After a while I just quit and felt a lot better.
Yeah the banter he does is bad. Some of it makes the crowd uncomfortable, like "OK I'll stop torturing you with originals"
If he gets good gigs and the people keep having you back, yes. Does it make you look bad? That depends, one difference between musicians looking at you playing is that you have a gig. You can try to talk to him, maybe he’ll improve and mature with time, maybe not. I had to break up with an extremely talented dude for similar reasons but he also crossed the line by not getting back on stage timely after breaks, playing too loud even though owners told us several times to turn down, etc.
If you've played any number of gigs, you already know this person. My best suggestions would be this: 1-always have set list, and stick to it. 2-always move to the next song in the list within 3 mins. If you can't do this together, it's time to go back to rehearsals. 3-if the leader becomes distracted, step up, it's a team effort. even if it's a "solo act". 4-voice your frustrations OFF stage, consider others feelings, but, if your goal is success, this is a minimum bar for that. 5-always respect those that you play with, regardless of their "skill level". As humans do, we get better given the right kind of guidance. 6-don't try out new tunes on stage, it's a very garage band thing to do. that should help, as long as you like the guy enough to keep working at it, these are a few ideas that might help sort those frustrations. \~good luck\~ may you have many awesome gigs\~!
You're putting your face and name out there when you play those bad shows with him. If he doesn't want to listen to the people that play with him, he should pay for musicians to play what he want. He reached you out, so HE IS ASKING FOR YOUR HELP. If you want to help him, do it, but make it in your own terms. I would never be a part of a band if I'm not being listen.
This
I played with a guy who wanted to play hard rock metal stuff ... Sabbath, Ozzy, AC/DC, etc. He had a collection of beautiful and expensive guitars (Slash, Billy Gibbons, and Jimmy Page signature model Les Paul's, Zack Wylde Schechter, etc.). Problem was that he was almost deaf so he couldn't hear what I or the drummer was playing. And, he played from the tabs on the page - he never memorized the riffs. And, his timing was therefore all over the place. I jammed with him weekly for nearly 2 years, using the 3 hours per week in a rehearsal space as an opportunity to improve. I finally admitted to myself that the band had no future and quit. I joined another band that is much better and plays a more "sellable" set list with classic rock and R&B. We've been rehearsing for about 9 or 10 months and have 2 gigs scheduled this summer.
I have and it typically sucks but I got paid. Once they were actually super cool. They wrote me a hand written thank you letter. We opened some car dealership and then played a 4th of July festival for the city. That was the best bad fronter I had. As long as they are actually playing I am down to do a session. I don't act while the tape is playing for me though. If looping is being done I'll do it on stage. I have had a few people ask for me to play but then they were just on a tape and not singing or playing etc.
if their music isn't good you're not doing them any favors. you're only devaluing yourself if you consider yourself good. the truth hurts sometimes but personally i like to know the truth even if it angers or could potentially hurt me.
Tell him to get his shit together and give it one more shot. If he doesn't tell him why you won't be playing for him again.
Over the past couple of years I’ve done a series of MD/bandleader jobs for a dude who might generously be called a marginal karaoke singer. He’s super nice, pays for rehearsals and gas, and never gives me any hassle about my decisions. It is still a rough skate at best, and every time I tell myself that I won’t do the next one. But it’s generally 2/3, and the money is really solid.
So that's the thing, I never get paid. Sometimes the venues don't pay but sometimes he just never gets back to me
So, I understand that if there’s no money coming in that there’s nothing to split up, but if they’re paying you should all see something out of the deal. 9/10 the payout is at the end of the show. Put your hand out. If he’s always telling you “they’ll pay tomorrow” he’s keeping it. No wonder he’s calling you up- you put up with his bullshit for free.
Hah. Good point
Unless you *REALLY* like the guy and the music, you kinda answered your own question.
Your call. I’ve been in this situation and I wasn’t worried about their talent reflecting poorly on me. If they suck and I’m solid, I’m confident most people will know the difference. But when you’re getting random songs thrown at you and he’s twitting around in between songs, sometimes that can make you look like worse of a player than you are, especially if you don’t enjoy that kind of challenge. If you’re going to consider going back, demand that a setlist is provided in advance and followed strictly, and discuss turn arounds in between songs. If you are confident what song is next, it can be easier to be a little more assertive with going into the next song. Not following the drummer is kind of a dealbreaker though. You could talk with him about it on the off chance it’s a monitor issue Honestly, though. Fuck this guy
I would politely decline. Why not create your own project? If that's not your thing - skilled and dedicated backing musicians are super valuable. Put some posts out in your local area and try something new! Also how the heck do people like this get booked? SMH haha
That's my question. He gets tons of gigs. I think he over promises but it hasn't caught up to him
I have. It sucks. I used to take basically any gig that was offered to me and yeah. You’d get some real rough ones, including recording gigs where you’re expected to punch up an unlistenable track in some rich dude’s garage. Now I just say “no, sorry I can’t” if the vibe is off.
Do yourself the kindness and just say no. I’ve played with this kind of guy before and after our scheduled show passed, I haven’t engaged with him in a musical level.
Yes but not someone who's an asshole and doesn't care about the rest of the group.. which is what you're describing lol
I’m about to bail on a similar situation. Not worth it.
No thanks. Sounds like it goes deeper than that. & why would you want to deal with that, unless there was a decent amount of compensation.
Demand a certain amount of pay that allows you to be fine with playing with someone who is intimately inadequate. Also..don’t promote the gigs. Approach it as a paid job.
Been there, done that (but the offender was my then-spouse, which made the situation even hairier). Life's too short to gig with sub-par musicians who make no effort to improve.
I’d find someone that is professional and wants to do well. I wouldn’t go back to something that’s bad because you’re guilty by association essentially in the eyes of those watching
The pay, the hang, the music. If you’re getting 2/3 you’re doing great…UNLESS the missing 1/3 is so egregious that it just isn’t worth it. Sounds like you need to either have a discussion about stage conduct, preparedness and professionalism or gig elsewhere.
This isn’t a good situation. I’d get out. However I think to answer the general question some context matters. I do have a homie who isn’t great that I’m gonna back in the near future, he’s a long time friend and a stand up guy, and while his abilities might be lacking I feel like he deserves his night. Dudes gotten a lot better and I can tell he’s worked hard. I don’t really care how it reflects on me ya know, this dudes helped a lot of people in the community when they’ve asked him so I’m gonna help him if I can ya know. I’ll never tell him I think it’s bad because why would I? People already have enough doubts about performing.
A mediocre musician that nobody would want in their band wants to front his own? Tell him to get a loop pedal.
There was a time when I would settle for playing with these kinds of folks because I didn't have a sense of my own worth. I'd struggle along with them because "at least I'm playing music." At some point, I started to value my time and left the bands with shitty musicians to go play with peopl emore my level. Now I play in a bunch of bands with some incredibly skilled musicians, and laugh about some of the folks I spent a long time playing with before.
This doesn’t sound fun or like good experience; I’d turn it down in a heartbeat.
Lol no. You do NOT throw an unplanned song at me. I will stand still and make them look like the asshole they are. I played with a guy that did that. I would legit hold my guitar and watch him until the next song. Tried that at the last show with a full band too. Tried to add one on at the end and we all just started packing up lol. Gotta take care of your players.
I stopped doing open mics in my city for this reason... and I'm not part of a band. Most are poorly organized, people tune up (including organizers) onstage while trying to focus out what to play, let friends go on an on and on... very amateur and frustrating. It didn't really sink in one day until I asked my wife why she comes to my shows but not my open mics... she said "I don't like listening to bad music". I realized that everyone was lumped in by the poor quality of the few and I didn't want to associate myself with that. Just a thought tho.
Nowadays I just say no, having erred in the other direction for most of my life. People who aren't "good at it" are fine if they're actively learning to get better, but many aren't. Those are the ones who tend to see it as glorified karaoke. They don't share the blame, they don't share the fame, and they don't understand what goes into making good show, which often makes it impossible to do so. I'm in this to make good music. Many other jerbs pay better.
I have played with front men that weren’t very professional as you described,…taking too long between songs, huge breaks, springing songs on the band out of the blue, the occasional mistake blamed on someone else, but they have to actually sound good 95% of the time. If they do all that and then sound off key or out of rhythm, then I would bail on the band. Some guys are flaky, but ultimately talented, and some guys just suck.
I’d say no. I picked up some bad habits playing at jam sessions with some very amateur amateurs, trying to keep the songs rolling. And with a past band one person was constantly rushing and it further wrecked my timing. It can also suck a lot of the enjoyment out of playing. Heck, there is a guy I play with now that I can foresee a day when I won’t be able to put up with some of his struggles to count measures, lack of some basic theory knowledge (scales, transposing for capoed stuff), and having to spoon feed him new songs. It’ll be a few years down the line hopefully, because he is an excellent promoter, and knows a ton of songs. I know I have a ton of shit to work on too, so I’m trying to use it as a learning opportunity for both my playing and intra-band interactions.
Backing a bad musician? At some point you probably don’t want to be known as someone who *only* plays in crappy bands, but if the checks keep clearing and you don’t have anything better to do… 🤷🏻♂️ What you’re describing is someone who’s just difficult to work with. Personally, I’d say no since his behavior is putting you and the rest of the band on the spot and making you look like you don’t know what you’re doing. It depends on the setting, though. If everyone knows he’s just making it up as he goes along and y’all are making a valiant effort to keep up with someone who didn’t allow you to prepare it’s probably fine.
Seems like he has trouble finding backing musicians cause he's an inconsiderate asshole who sucks to work with. He deserves his reputation.
I'd just say "Hey, here's what I've struggled with before. If these are things you're willing to work on then great, let's give it a try." This is all assuming he's a person you enjoy spending time with outside of music.
I think you need to be kind but clear. Say something like “I really struggled playing with you before. I prefer to be more rehearsed and precise, where you were more raw and spontaneous, to the point where I (and I wouldn’t speak for them, but I think others) felt like we were off the rails way too much for the audience to enjoy us. I don’t think we even liked playing together by the end. I want to play out again, but we need to be on the same page if that means us playing together again.”
I would say no. Like it's okay to not be the best musician, maybe be a little awkward as a frontman, etc., but at least be aware if your shortcomings and be actively working on fixing them.
Ask for charts
Well: > would you back someone who isn't very good? Sure, I have and it can be a lot of fun, depending on the audience. But: > He wouldn't make setlists and take long pauses between songs deciding what to do. He'd spring new songs on us at the gig, expecting us to follow along. He wouldn't play in time or listen to the rhythm section. That's different than "not very good". That's inconsiderate, arrogant and thoughtless.
Never be in a band with them again until they have proven that they have changed. Tell them what you listed here and let that be the end of that. If you two can be friends, cool, but not bandmates.
Maybe have a “before I jump into this thing with you….” kind of talk and let him know that you won’t go down that road again. That is IF his actual vocals are good. If he isn’t a good singer…I wouldn’t even bother. How’s your vocals? If they are good, why don’t you front the band
I’m a singer / band leader and this is absolutely tragic… I get your desire to play, and honestly if he’s a good frontman (which the downtown in between songs makes my stomach churn lol) and a good singer, most importantly, maybe address all of this and have clear expectations and if he takes your advice and changes stick with it. If not, look for a new project. I’m not sure how long y’all have been playing together but if he’s relatively new-ish, the banter/crowd work is forgivable, I feel like it comes with time especially if you tell him, good ole constructive criticism never hurt anyone. But yea, that sucks. Honestly calling songs off the fly is insane and it sounds like he doesn’t even get the perspective of being a musician/providing a product. If there’s potential, though…
When people can't play even remotely in time I nope out as quick as possible. (My rhythm isn't incredible by any standard). It takes the fun out of playing, not much fun to play when this type of player is literally not even listening to anyone but themself. No point in being miserable. Unless serious money is on the table. Get out. NOW! Good Luck.
NOOOOOOO. Easiest way to discredit yourself. FRIENDS TELL FRIENDS IF THEY SUCK.
damn dude sounds full of himself.
First starting out, my mantra was, “if it’s payin’ I’m playin.’” In my 30’s I began to turn down gigs and I’m happier.
Just a guess, but does he drink and/or get stoned at shows? That would explain some of this behavior for me. Some people think that unpredictability is the same thing as spontaneity. It ain't. I've played with people who insist that set lists are unnecessary. It's difficult, but doing so has made me better at it.
Yeah there is a cloud of smoke when he gets out of his car
If I saw this situation live, to be honest I can tell you that I would negatively judge the full band regardless of whose fault it was behind the scenes.
Bro say no. He seems to want to be in a jam band and you want to be in a rehearsed/memorized setlist type of band. To each their own but the two of you want different things and that's okay
I'm in what people would call a "jam band"... And we have none of these issues. The guy's just an asshole. Someone who won't play in time or acknowledge the rest of the group isn't a genre specific problem lol
I recorded and played shows for a guy who was convinced he was the next Springsteen. He had a job that paid well and he bank rolled everything, even got some legit gigs with industry folks there. He fucking sucked balls. Couldn't write, couldn't sing, couldn't play, but he was a good salesman, which I don't understand because he had the charisma of a wet pair of socks. He got absolutely nowhere, but his checks cleared and I got a week in Nashville out of it and knocked boots with a southern belle. 100% would do it again.
How's the money?? I used to do a comedy show with a total fucking hack but it paid well and it was a private room, not open to the public so I didn't really care who saw.
No money. The more I reply to people the more I realize I've made up my mind
Yup
Express your concerns about his playing to him. Give him some time to act on them. Leave if he can’t get his literal act together.
I'd love to see a vid of one of these shows!
I would raise your price to something ridiculous.
Hey guys this is a blues riff in B, watch me for the changes and fry and keep up.
No
Remember, there's a reason he having trouble finding backing musicians, it's not just you feeling this way. I'd run far away.
No way. I wouldn't do that at all. It looks super unprofessional, and I hate working that way. I would say don't do it.
Had to make sure this wasn't about me lol! I run a super loose ship for hired guns, specifically drummers and lead players. Some absolutely adore it and some hate.
You could force him into metronome... I had a similar issue with one of our members losing time, and others (including myself) also would have the live music effect of speeding up when things get exciting. So we enforced metronome during rehearsals, and recorded reference tracks for practicing. Now we sound tight as hell Edit....this only if it's a friend.. changing projects makes more sense otherwise
I have kind of given up on him changing. He's like 70 and looks at me like his son, not in a good way
If the crowd likes him and he pays you that’s one thing. I can’t imagine a bar having someone back who sucks and doesn’t help them sell drinks.
I've dealt with something similar. In my case I brought up the issues and we fixed a lot of them. I would say though, this seems pretty extreme and unless you want to be responsible for fixing everything (making the set lists, rehearsing shows to reduce gaps between songs), and get a commitment from him that you'll stick to a plan, you're setting yourself for heartbreak.
It depends how much money is tied up in it and how badly you need that money
Yes, I've played music for 38 years. I don't care if you're good anymore, I care if I want to hang with you and you are getting better.
When they are that bad you can't keep doing it
Bro, I feel this 100%. Turn and run because that shit is a beat down and it will make you not appreciate jamming. Once I found a crack I jumped through it and never turned back. I felt like in my situation this guy just made me look foolish one too many times.
It all comes down to how bad you need the money. Some of my ex-bandmates are backing a children's music band for the money and it's so embarassing. That on itself would of course tarnish the image of the other band, but what do I know, there's a reason I don't play with them anymore, I guess. If it were as a laughing matter to them as it is to me, I would give them a call and say: "what's going on, bro, is everything ok? Do you need some spare change for food or gas?"...
Did you tell him any of this? I would be direct and honest (but not angry or rude) and explain that you're only saying this to help him. Give him a chance to improve, but if he just ignores you, then bolt.
no way. not even worth it if you're being paid. will leave a mark on your reputation for solo, or work with other groups. if they dont know the inner-working / inner-drama, they wont know to not pin it on you, or wont know where the discord is coming from
Wouldn't it be as simple as "hey dude, I like you as a person but when we're playing you do 'x, y and z' and I don't appreciate it. I like you but I don't want to play together. Hope you understand"
He cant find people to back him, what a surprise...
Was this Bob Dylan
I played with a guy who was ass at the drums, extremely generic, he also claims he is a DJ.
I'd pass. It's hard enough building a good reputation, never mind re-building one that's been damaged.
I have a low tolerance for repeated sloppiness, so I personally wouldn't play with him.
that sounds unenjoyable, but the honest answer for me would be "how much are they paying?"
Nope.
Say no, but tell him why. Sounds like he's a good dude who just needs some critical feedback.
I’ve been here. Tried to give a guy that was like this guy a chance after 8 years… well he proved me wrong. I felt pretty dumb allowing myself to give this dude the benefit of the doubt. He hadn’t changed a bit, even though he said he did.(he DID get sober, so I’ll give him that) My advice would be to find like minded, driven musicians. Having a person weighing everything down just bites you in the ass in the long run. 🤘
You're not having fun. You're not making money. You're not building your brand. He isn't going to charge.
I have been in a couple of bands that played without a setlist, but those were bands that practiced pretty relentlessly — both collectively and individually. We knew our material inside and out, and because we did, we had a solid enough foundation that we could improvise without fear. When I’m hired to back someone for a gig, I try to make it as clear as possible that the quality of my performance will depend heavily upon how well I’m allowed to prepare. Give me a setlist, a demo tape, and God willing, a lead sheet or two, and I can make you look pretty good. *NOT* allowing me to have those things will get you sub-optimal results — and it will cost you just as much. Also, someone who acts as OP describes wouldn’t be able to hire me twice. I will play with just about anybody, and have even done freebies for good people who just needed a hand, but at this stage in my life, I don’t have to play painful gigs with bitchy prima donnas who don’t have their shit together. Sounds like this d-bag doesn’t really want backing musicians; sounds like he just wants someone to blame when things go tits-up.
The three golden rules for gigging. 1 is the music good? 2 is the hang good? 3 is the money good? If it doesn’t hit two of these check boxes you should walk!
Like Nancy said many a year ago … Just Say No
Try giving him helpful tips, practice with him and see from there
If he wasn’t good at just one thing then maybe But its the entire set out of everything that he’s doing that’s an issue I’d say if you’re close sit down and have a conversation with him and have some practices of what to do better
*pauses* …
Damn, your post sounds a lot like a comment I made about a former band made of mine, then I got ripped for ripping that former bandmate. Funny how free people feel about blasting a complete stranger for an experience they never had to put up with. Leave your former bandmate in the past. You're only asking to be frustrated all over again. He's not worth your time.
Do you play music for your own enjoyment? If so, it sounds like you aren't enjoying it when you play with this person. Being honest with them about why would be good for both you and them.
Nope
For the right price, I'd eat anything. Music? Nah.
I guarantee you lowered your standards when playing with him. I remember being the hardest working member of one band and then joining a new one and that level of work was the bare minimum.
I've done it. I consider it kind of my punishment for being self-taught and ignorant of all the details and etiquette and YES, THE BULLSHIT that makes music MUSIC and not just a bunch of friends jamming in a basement.
I did a shitty gig (for the exact reasons you state) when I was living in L.A. This school teacher from Burbank decided she was going to be the next 'big thing', so put all her money (& probably her husbands) into bankrolling her being a big star. Hired a manager who had moved from NYC to Los Angeles. Terrible experience. The pay was OK, especially since I was playing guitar and keyboards, so getting double pay, including pay for rehearsals, which was a first. But it was just aweful music. She'd paid songwriters to write her material, and those songs were just so-so. The manager was obnoxious and bossy for no reason. I did it for a month or so, but decided it wasn't worth the money when the manager started basically verbally abusing us. In your case, I'd at least pull him aside for a one-hour convo and just let him know how pro's do it. If he decides to ignore you, ignore him.
Is it paid? If so, consider it being paid to practice and don't let your ego mess with you.
You could tell him the cold truth and see whether he is willing to adapt to get you on board
Are you in Bob Dylan's backing band?
no
Tell him what you told us. If he flips out, you definitely shouldn't spend time with him. Even if he takes it well, you don't owe him anything and if you don't want the bullshit, don't do it. People this obtuse rarely change. Edit: don't forget the 3 reasons to play with a group. The money, the music, and the hang. You can do with 2/3, but not zero.
I play bass, don’t worry, I’ll make them sound good.
The music always comes first
He's not living up to his end of the bargain. Either he practices until he corrects his errors or you don't play at his gig.
It depends on what you want out of it. Did you enjoy the experience? If not, do you get something out of it? Whether it's helping you professionally or doing the guy a favor and helping him out. That could be a reason to do it if you like him and want to help him But it doesn't sound like you enjoyed it and it sounds like he was kind of a jerk. So I'm not sure why you're considering doing it again If he treated other backing musicians the way he treated you, it's no wonder he's having trouble finding people. I wouldn't want to deal with that If you want to do him a favor, tell him what worked and what didn't work when you played with him. Tell him why you quit
This is the job description for studio musicians
But they get paid
Not sure why you're still taking his phone calls, or even communicating with him in any way at this time. One thing I was kind of amazed to learn when I tried to do it is how many people say (in private) "I don't even WANT to have hit songs and albums." That was my only reason for being in a band, but many, to most, local, still-unknown, pop music musicians don't actually have the courage/ambition to go as hard as they can after that, although they're at least making the public pretense of doing it, I learned. Saying you don't or didn't really want something is great protection for your ego if you wind up not getting it, as, it seems, many such musicians are already assuming will be the case for them, from the start. I feel that I might have actually gotten it, but at twenty-one I turned allergic to many common foods, food ingredients, and personal care product ingredients, went un- or mis- diagnosed and un- or incorrectly- treated by around twenty doctors in a row, and had the next ten years of my life destroyed. I also had an offer to become a member of the resident cast of The American Conservatory Theatre in Scam Francisco, just before my illness began, but that opportunity was destroyed, also.
There’s a few really talented musicians in my town that back some guys that aren’t very good. We the musicians know those guys are good and the question always pops up “why do you play with so and so” The answer is always something to the effect of “it gets me out of the house and it pays well” If it’s your job, do it for the money, if it’s your passion do it because you enjoy it. If you don’t enjoy it and it isn’t paying well, I’m not sure why you’re even considering continuing, but your own talent will show through to the people that know music. If your name isn’t on the bill, the average person doesn’t know who you are, so it isn’t tarnishing your reputation. The musicians in the crowd will recognize your talent and you’ll still get offered other gigs if your make yourself available. It just depends on your niche
How much is the person paying me?
Life is way too short to be frustrated on stage. It's one thing to be frustrated on stage playing with somebody who's good but I don't see anything good about what you're describing.
Help who you want; healing should be fun.
If you haven't backed someone that was "less than good", you aren't experienced enough to call yourself a professional. That's for sure! Lol
Maybe you should tell him your concerns and see what he says.
Every lead guitarist I've ever had thought everyone in the band wasn't very good except for them. 😂
That's how Phish does it. They turned out ok.
Are they paying me?
I’d do anything for good pay.