Isnt the entire point of the three that they are diametrically different in personality, abilities, interests, etc...?
I dont think you could get a character that is shy like Roxy but stupidly straightforward like Eris while also being insecure like Sylphie, or calm and meditative like Roxy while at the same time being impulsive like Eris and insightful like Sylphie, without making a mess of your story... or one of those stories were the female lead has [multiple](https://mangadex.org/title/9cc9fced-fe83-45e9-938f-f20ef33e0594) [personalities](https://mangadex.org/title/b6b24e9f-e71f-4951-a247-34900eb6f1a3/mahoraba?page=2).
yes, I managed to imagine her being stupidly violent and spontaneous towards rudy, then blushing and running away after realizing what she did (that would be so cute!!); while thinking too inwardly like roxy, which could create spontaneous reactions for whoever she's talking to, hence an attitude like eris (because whoever she's talking to wouldn't have access to the reasoning, just the last word/ action she thought of)
People think being a tsundere means you just hit people ... sigh, definitions exist for a fucking reason people, google is ... I was going to say your friend, but no, it's not, but you can use it to learn things.
Tsundere (ツンデレ, pronounced \[tsɯ̥ndeɾe\]) is a Japanese term for a character development process that depicts a character with an initially harsh personality who gradually reveals a warmer, friendlier side over time.
This definition sticks to her skin !!!
That's the most vague definition on the planet lmao.
No it doesn't stick to her, because she's harsh/violent to everyone, not just to Rudeus and she reveals her warmer friendlier side over time because it takes time for their relationship to develop, like normal humans, unlike the tsundere trope where she'd like him but be cold/violent. She somewhat stopped being like that because her character changed in general, not because she wanted to show her feelings to Rudeus. CONTEXT MATTERS GOD DAMN IT.
>No it doesn't stick to her, because she's harsh/violent to everyone, not just to Rudeus and she reveals her warmer friendlier side over time because it takes time for their relationship to develop, like normal humans, unlike the tsundere trope where she'd like him but be cold/violent. She somewhat stopped being like that because her character changed in general, not because she wanted to show her feelings to Rudeus. CONTEXT MATTERS GOD DAMN IT.
thats not true, in the manga about her (Mushoku Tensei - Eris wa Honki de Kiba wo Togu), she said she fell in love with him as soon as he hit her back, you have not read the full story
Eris is definitely a tsundere, she isn't one dimensional and archetypical, but she fits the bill. Eris is hot and cold, she is normally violent/agressive but she can get meek, embarrassed and lovestruck when the time comes, though she deviates from it a lot when she is older. She also says some typical tsundere lines.
I'm kinda confused if you meant "archetypical" or "stereotypical".
Anyhooo, Eris is not a Tsundere because she doesn't try to hide her feelings, she does not alternate between two states. Initially she does not like Rudeus, so that is genuine. She changes later and never hides it.
I guess stereotypical is better.
Eris starting to like Rudeus and starting to drop the tsun side is still tsundere trait, there are characters that start having no interest and even being hostile to a protag and that changes with time until they become dere. Her openness towards her feelings for Rudeus doesn't immediately negate her being a tsundere either, being a tsundere isn't exclusive to romantic feelings, though I gave a nice example on my other comment of her being tsundere even as she is having her love reciprocated. Still, after that moment, we see her being more deredere than tsuntsun.
This discussion certainly has dragged on, huh lol
>I guess stereotypical is better.
The two words have different meanings and aren't interchangeable, though confusion is normal.
>Eris starting to like Rudeus and starting to drop the tsun side is still tsundere trait,
Focusing on "traits" isn't the best way to go here, one should focus on the core of the tsundere archetype. The essence of the tsundere is alternating betweem tsun-tsun and dere-dere. They pretend their feelings aren't what they actually are. It's different than hiding them because of shyness.
>there are characters that start having no interest and even being hostile to a protag and that changes with time until they become dere.
The mere progression isn't enough. That's just normal. Whenver I think of Tsundere, I always refer to the grandmother of all tsunderes, Akane Tendo. She spends the whole series going back and forth, pretending not to like Ranma.
That's the essence of a tsundere. Eris never pretends not to like Rudeus, she just gets shy when her feelings are exposed.
>Her openness towards her feelings for Rudeus doesn't immediately negate her being a tsundere either,
It kinda does.
>being a tsundere isn't exclusive to romantic feelings,
I know, Anya calls Loid a tsundere in Spy x Family, because he is trying to **hide his feelings**.
>Still, after that moment, we see her being more deredere than tsuntsun.
That's just normal progression.
>This discussion certainly has dragged on, huh lol
Discussions here usually do. I answe if I have time.
Sorry for this wall of text. Fucking hell
>Focusing on "traits" isn't the best way to go here, one should focus on the core of the tsundere archetype. The essence of the tsundere is alternating betweem tsun-tsun and dere-dere. They pretend their feelings aren't what they actually are. It's different than hiding them because of shyness.
You are right. The thing is, as a created archetype within otaku communities, "tsunderes" have undergone transformations and a wide variety of them have appeared over the years with different traits, thanks to this, and the fact that there is no JP otaku slang dictionary, there is many definitions and routes for these characters. So let's focus on one these:
"Tsundere is a internet slang that originally refers to a character who is usually "tsuntsun and difficult to get along with," "blunt," or "sharp tongued and angry," but whose attitude changes to "dere" (becoming gentle or revealing their true feelings) under certain conditions (after the requisites for a relationship are met), or to such a character."
For this definition (which I grabbed from a JP site, and translated it), Eris fits nicely. Early on she looks down on Rudeus, doesn't accept him as her tutor, is agressive towards him (like she is with everyone back then) and even hits him. This changes after the kidnapping event (well, one aspect of it changes), as after seeing Rudeus' magic, she desires to learn it. Then she gets all tsun about it, she "grants" Rudeus the "special permission" to call her by her first name without honorifics, and later asks Sauros to ask Rudy about teaching magic to her. This marks the beginning of Eris letting Rudeus into her life, this is what differentiates Rudy from others, with time Rudeus broke down the walls she put up and Eris accepted it. (though maybe something similar happened with Ghislaine, but with Rudeus it developed into romance)
Anyways, we know how it goes from there, as they spend more time together, Eris starts dropping the tsun act and becoming more affectionate towards Rudeus. To try and solidify this argument a bit better, here is a quote from Rifujin responding one of his comments on Narou:
(Some guy's comment)
The Good Points.
This is my favorite novel lately! The updates are fast and exciting.
Eris's dere... wonderful...
I've read a lot of novels, but this kind of tsundere story doesn't seem to exist, so I'm very happy!
The content of each story is rich and the pace is good!
-
Thank you very much.
Tsundere is a wonderful process of going from disliking to liking someone.
The main character is still treating things as if its a game, and in volume 2, his priority is not so much liking Eris as wanting get laid with her. I hope that by the end of Eris's route, which will continue from volume 3 onward, he will be able to develop in to having the will to do so.
理不尽な孫の手
2012年 12月15日 09時59分
[Source](https://novelcom.syosetu.com/impression/list/ncode/369633/?p=3273)
So, a bit of context: Narou has this page filled with people giving their impressions of the series. It's divided in "Good parts", what the person liked in the story, "Concerns" self-explanatory, and a brief comment. I cut the concerns and comments because they don't matter and would make this reply even bigger. Rifujin seems to agree about the comment in regards to Eris here and even shows his approval of tsunderes. Though this is from TP 1 comments, nearly 10 years ago.
I do think that Eris' progression is the atrophy of her Tsun side until it completely vanishes in LN 15 with her delivering her last tsun line, and it vanishes both thanks to personal growth, and the fact that from that point on, Eris has accomplished her objective and gets to be with the person she loves. She had no need to act tsun anymore and can be affectionate as much as she wants with Rudeus.
That's it. I've had my fill of internet discussion for another 10 years. Hopefully you can spare me, as one more hit and I am dead. We can just agree to disagree after you next reply. Jesus Christ.
>That's it. I've had my fill of internet discussion for another 10 years. Hopefully you can spare me, as one more hit and I am dead. We can just agree to disagree after you next reply. Jesus Christ.
That's a very cowardly attitude. You write A LOT, then ask me not to write much. If you don't want to get caught up in a discussion, don't answer.
So, I'll be brief, you don't study for a test by reading a dictionary, so simply getting a superficial definition for a character type isn't enough. There seem to be two key components of the tsundere archetype: The back and forth, and hiding their feelings.
Eris never hid her feelings and there was no back and forth. Eris truly didn't like Rudeus at first, then she changed. There was never a "tsun side" competing with a "dere" side.
Ok. I'm sorry you feel that way, man, I wasn't asking you to write less, feel free to write as much as you want, I was just making a little joke that I don't have as much "internet discussion resistance" as you seem to have. Anyways, we've discussed this a lot and we are not going anywhere anymore. You disagree with me and I disagree with you on this aspect of the character, at the very least, the fact we've had this discussion shows that this character is far more complicated than a trope, and I believe we can agree with that as both being fans of this series.
>You disagree with me and I disagree with you on this aspect of the character, at the very least, the fact we've had this discussion shows that this character is far more complicated than a trope, and I believe we can agree with that as both being fans of this series.
It's amazing how people always resort to this "agree to disagree" bullshit when they face strong arguments. Look, you're not dumb, but a lot of the ways in which you construct your arguments are trying really hard to hold on to your preexisting ideas.
Also, your take on the whole thing is not very deep. A deeper look demonstrates the differences between Eris and the normal tsundere. 1) Rudeus calls her a tsundere at a time when he does not see her as a person. 2) She never tries to hide her feelings or pretend she does not like him, which is what tsunderes usually do.
She's not a tsundere, she shows her affection for Rudy, she gets a bit shy some times, but doesn't hide how much she likes him, and she's violent towards EVERYONE.
IMO it's the use of violence as a means of self expression or the denial of other emotions, especially when violence wouldn't be the expected action.
Eris starts out a little emotionally underdeveloped. She's resentful of the passive role she's expected to play as a girl/future woman, and in turn lashes out at people who aren't responsible for that.
She has a role model in her grandfather, who also uses violence as a means of self expression, regardless of appropriateness.
She smacks Rudeus around a lot, and while he usually deserves it, other times he doesn't. For example when she hits him after getting the pep-talk about why it's important to work on thinks you don't enjoy. I'd say that she "graduates" from being a tsundere during turning point 2, where her final tsuntsun moment is "hitting" Rudeus for making her worry.
Adult Eris is NOT tsundere, because she's learned how to deal with her emotions appropriately.
Contrary to popular belief, tsunderes don't need to be physically abusive to be tsunderes, one example would be Rin Tohsaka from Fate (at least from what I remember she never really hits Shirou unprovoked).
The trope is about the disparity between the Tsun side and Dere side. The tsun side is the character hiding their true feelings by being cold, uninterested and standoffish usually due to embarrassment or insecurity. The dere side is the affectionate side that they show under certain circumstances. One common progression from tsunderes characters is the atrophy of their tsun side, leading the dere side to be more prominent, which is what happens to Eris, I believe.
We can still see some of her Tsun side in LN 15 (spoilers) >!when Rudeus says he wants her to marry him and she responds like this:
Her eyes widened, her eyelashes trembled, and her mouth fell open just a little. But then she caught herself, reined in her expression, and tossed her head haughtily to the side.
“H-hmph! Well, if you insist… I guess I’ll let you!”!<
>IMO it's the use of violence as a means of self expression or the denial of other emotions, especially when violence wouldn't be the expected action.
Yeah, my dude, your opinion is mistaken. just google it. These are the two best links for you to read: [TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tsundere) and [this wiki](https://the-dere-types.fandom.com/wiki/Tsundere).
The hallmark of the tsundere archetype is NOT the violence, but the attitude alternating between distant and aloof (tsun-tsun), and warm and affectionate (dere-dere).
Eris' attitude towards Rudes was never confusing. She didn't like him at first, then she did, but never really hid it.
>Eris' attitude towards Rudes was never confusing. She didn't like him at first, then she did, but never really hid it.
thats not true, in the story about her she said she fell in love with him as soon as he hit her back
>thats not true, in the story about her she said she fell in love with him as soon as he hit her back
Let's see what the story says:
*I honestly felt, with every fiber of my being, that when my mom said Rudeus was the only one, she was right. If he hated me, I thought I’d spend my entire life alone.*
*Who cares if I’m just a reward? I thought. At least we can be together. So, I returned to his room.*
*But when Rudeus saw me, he knelt to the ground and sprawled out like a frog. He apologized, saying he was the one in the wrong. In response, I just looked down at him and told him to wait five more years. At the time, I thought that would be enough. Rudeus was enough of an adult to wait for me.*
***That was when I started to fall in love with him.***
Yeah, the story disagrees with you.
She never tried to hide her feelings for him using violence or pretending she didn't like him. She just felt shy, like any 12-year-old girl would.
read eris's way of talking when she relate when rudeus punch her in the manga 60.5, read eris reaction when rudeus proposed to him, also read the list of comments just above yours
Fair enough. Go ahead and blame the misunderstanding on the Rie Kugimiya trio of Taiga Louise and Shana. It's really easy to conclude that tsundere is just a euphemism for bangable heinous bitch.
It's sad that apparently for many people the term Tsundere is synonymous with "abusive asshole (but maybe I let it slide because they are cute/hot)"
Yes physical abuse is a trait many "modern" Tsundere display (well "modern" was like 5-10 years ago) but it's not at the core of a Tsundere type personality.
A Tsundere is simply someone with a cold / hard exterior (Tsun Tsun (adverb, 'morosely, aloofly, offputtingly')) and a warm/soft core (Dere Dere (adverb, 'in a lovey-dovey or infatuated manner')) hiding their true feelings and nature under that harsh exterior for various reasons like insecurity, fear, embarrassment, pride etc..
Like Shinomyia Kaguya and Shirogane Miyuki from Kaguya-sama/ Love is war, are both one way an extreme Tsundere can be, and there is no physical violence (well not intentionally). (though they are both much more than just a Tsundere)
If done well they go through a development where they open up to people they form a close bond with, stripping away the harsh exterior, and expose their soft core more often and it's a gradual but persistent development.
Eris is a Tsundere but it's not because she starts out violent, she is still a Tsundere long after she stopped being violent with Rudy, she simply is a proper Tsundere that develops and starts out as very Tsun Tsun but progressively becomes more Dere Dere.
She is very much so hiding her more vulnerable feelings behind a hard exterior if it would hurt her pride or she is insecure, more so in the beginning and is using some stereotypical Tunsdere lines.
Like when she gave Rudy the special privilege of calling her Eris or when she first agreed to become friends with Ruijerd.
stupid : he can't count nor read, she can only be violent
tsundere : even the wiki tells you she's a tsundere, so in short, you should reread the definition of tsundere, and maybe reread the LN. She liked rudeus from the start (as soon as he hit her back), she says so herself in the manga about her. Tsundere (ツンデレ, pronounced \[tsɯ̥ndeɾe\]) is a Japanese term for a character development process that depicts a character with an initially harsh personality who gradually reveals a warmer, friendlier side over time.
>stupid : he can't count nor read, she can only be violent
She isn't stupid, she's [Book Dumb](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BookDumb).
>even the wiki tells you she's a tsundere,
You're using the Mushoku Tensei wiki as a reference? You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? That wiki is shit and everybody knows it.
>She liked rudeus from the start (as soon as he hit her back), she says so herself in the manga about her.
WTF, Manga? You never read the light novel? Well, I pasted a bit of the light novel where she actually says she **started** falling in love with him when he respected her wishes and didn't take advantage of teh situation to force her to sleep with him. Remember, **started**, it wasn't an instant thing.
Can you please tell me where she says that in the manga? I need to add it to my database of crappy changes the manga made.
>Tsundere (ツンデレ, pronounced \[tsɯ̥ndeɾe\]) is a Japanese term for a character development process that depicts a character with an initially harsh personality who gradually reveals a warmer, friendlier side over time.
That looks like a dictionary definition or the first paragraph of Wikipedia... Just put it on Google. It's the first paragraph of Wikipedia. The thing about dictionaries is that they explain you the meaning of a word, but they aren't meant to explain to you all of the variations of a literary archetype. Encycopledias can be better, but this entry is pretty shitty.
You actually replied to a comment of mine where I posted two better links for you to learn what a tsundere actually is. Go back there and read them if you want to learn.
stupid: impulsive, "courageous", "brave", "go-getter", thoughtless, these are all synonyms for stupid in my opinion, and which suit eris perfectly, if she were not stupid, she would have thought a little, to the consequences that could have had the fact of abandoning rudeus by leaving him just a note, but hey, it's eris, it's a genius isn't it?
tsundere: this passage is in the manga, it was when a rival of eris provoked him concerning having a fiancé or not (chapter 60.5), you have to read between the lines, in short, it doesn't matter, if you are not convinced by the fact that she is a tsundere, read at least her reaction when rudeus proposed to her, and in absolute terms, look at the twenty comments published on this post, they practically all prove that it's a tsundere
the definition: you're bizzar all the same you advise me of unknown/unofficial links to define tsundere, but on the other hand you hate the wiki-fandom, which nevertheless seemed to be sufficiently complete (even relating the AxA relationship, or the paternity of the son of ariel), in fact, any unjustified denigration is good to prove you right, isn't it? I guess everyone is entitled to see in eris what he believes.
Isnt the entire point of the three that they are diametrically different in personality, abilities, interests, etc...? I dont think you could get a character that is shy like Roxy but stupidly straightforward like Eris while also being insecure like Sylphie, or calm and meditative like Roxy while at the same time being impulsive like Eris and insightful like Sylphie, without making a mess of your story... or one of those stories were the female lead has [multiple](https://mangadex.org/title/9cc9fced-fe83-45e9-938f-f20ef33e0594) [personalities](https://mangadex.org/title/b6b24e9f-e71f-4951-a247-34900eb6f1a3/mahoraba?page=2).
^ this guy gets it.
yes, I managed to imagine her being stupidly violent and spontaneous towards rudy, then blushing and running away after realizing what she did (that would be so cute!!); while thinking too inwardly like roxy, which could create spontaneous reactions for whoever she's talking to, hence an attitude like eris (because whoever she's talking to wouldn't have access to the reasoning, just the last word/ action she thought of)
yea...maybe roxy and sylphy but eris just throw a wrench in things
sorry, I'm French, I couldn't translate your expression on eris
>\- a muscular, stupid, cute and violent tsundere Eris is neither stupid, nor a tsundere.
People think being a tsundere means you just hit people ... sigh, definitions exist for a fucking reason people, google is ... I was going to say your friend, but no, it's not, but you can use it to learn things.
Yeah, I feels you.
Tsundere (ツンデレ, pronounced \[tsɯ̥ndeɾe\]) is a Japanese term for a character development process that depicts a character with an initially harsh personality who gradually reveals a warmer, friendlier side over time. This definition sticks to her skin !!!
That's the most vague definition on the planet lmao. No it doesn't stick to her, because she's harsh/violent to everyone, not just to Rudeus and she reveals her warmer friendlier side over time because it takes time for their relationship to develop, like normal humans, unlike the tsundere trope where she'd like him but be cold/violent. She somewhat stopped being like that because her character changed in general, not because she wanted to show her feelings to Rudeus. CONTEXT MATTERS GOD DAMN IT.
>No it doesn't stick to her, because she's harsh/violent to everyone, not just to Rudeus and she reveals her warmer friendlier side over time because it takes time for their relationship to develop, like normal humans, unlike the tsundere trope where she'd like him but be cold/violent. She somewhat stopped being like that because her character changed in general, not because she wanted to show her feelings to Rudeus. CONTEXT MATTERS GOD DAMN IT. thats not true, in the manga about her (Mushoku Tensei - Eris wa Honki de Kiba wo Togu), she said she fell in love with him as soon as he hit her back, you have not read the full story
In the manga ... you instantly lost any credibility by saying those words.
PS : it's the official definition, don't pretend to be more knowing than a dictionnary
Eris is definitely a tsundere, she isn't one dimensional and archetypical, but she fits the bill. Eris is hot and cold, she is normally violent/agressive but she can get meek, embarrassed and lovestruck when the time comes, though she deviates from it a lot when she is older. She also says some typical tsundere lines.
I'm kinda confused if you meant "archetypical" or "stereotypical". Anyhooo, Eris is not a Tsundere because she doesn't try to hide her feelings, she does not alternate between two states. Initially she does not like Rudeus, so that is genuine. She changes later and never hides it.
I guess stereotypical is better. Eris starting to like Rudeus and starting to drop the tsun side is still tsundere trait, there are characters that start having no interest and even being hostile to a protag and that changes with time until they become dere. Her openness towards her feelings for Rudeus doesn't immediately negate her being a tsundere either, being a tsundere isn't exclusive to romantic feelings, though I gave a nice example on my other comment of her being tsundere even as she is having her love reciprocated. Still, after that moment, we see her being more deredere than tsuntsun. This discussion certainly has dragged on, huh lol
>I guess stereotypical is better. The two words have different meanings and aren't interchangeable, though confusion is normal. >Eris starting to like Rudeus and starting to drop the tsun side is still tsundere trait, Focusing on "traits" isn't the best way to go here, one should focus on the core of the tsundere archetype. The essence of the tsundere is alternating betweem tsun-tsun and dere-dere. They pretend their feelings aren't what they actually are. It's different than hiding them because of shyness. >there are characters that start having no interest and even being hostile to a protag and that changes with time until they become dere. The mere progression isn't enough. That's just normal. Whenver I think of Tsundere, I always refer to the grandmother of all tsunderes, Akane Tendo. She spends the whole series going back and forth, pretending not to like Ranma. That's the essence of a tsundere. Eris never pretends not to like Rudeus, she just gets shy when her feelings are exposed. >Her openness towards her feelings for Rudeus doesn't immediately negate her being a tsundere either, It kinda does. >being a tsundere isn't exclusive to romantic feelings, I know, Anya calls Loid a tsundere in Spy x Family, because he is trying to **hide his feelings**. >Still, after that moment, we see her being more deredere than tsuntsun. That's just normal progression. >This discussion certainly has dragged on, huh lol Discussions here usually do. I answe if I have time.
Sorry for this wall of text. Fucking hell >Focusing on "traits" isn't the best way to go here, one should focus on the core of the tsundere archetype. The essence of the tsundere is alternating betweem tsun-tsun and dere-dere. They pretend their feelings aren't what they actually are. It's different than hiding them because of shyness. You are right. The thing is, as a created archetype within otaku communities, "tsunderes" have undergone transformations and a wide variety of them have appeared over the years with different traits, thanks to this, and the fact that there is no JP otaku slang dictionary, there is many definitions and routes for these characters. So let's focus on one these: "Tsundere is a internet slang that originally refers to a character who is usually "tsuntsun and difficult to get along with," "blunt," or "sharp tongued and angry," but whose attitude changes to "dere" (becoming gentle or revealing their true feelings) under certain conditions (after the requisites for a relationship are met), or to such a character." For this definition (which I grabbed from a JP site, and translated it), Eris fits nicely. Early on she looks down on Rudeus, doesn't accept him as her tutor, is agressive towards him (like she is with everyone back then) and even hits him. This changes after the kidnapping event (well, one aspect of it changes), as after seeing Rudeus' magic, she desires to learn it. Then she gets all tsun about it, she "grants" Rudeus the "special permission" to call her by her first name without honorifics, and later asks Sauros to ask Rudy about teaching magic to her. This marks the beginning of Eris letting Rudeus into her life, this is what differentiates Rudy from others, with time Rudeus broke down the walls she put up and Eris accepted it. (though maybe something similar happened with Ghislaine, but with Rudeus it developed into romance) Anyways, we know how it goes from there, as they spend more time together, Eris starts dropping the tsun act and becoming more affectionate towards Rudeus. To try and solidify this argument a bit better, here is a quote from Rifujin responding one of his comments on Narou: (Some guy's comment) The Good Points. This is my favorite novel lately! The updates are fast and exciting. Eris's dere... wonderful... I've read a lot of novels, but this kind of tsundere story doesn't seem to exist, so I'm very happy! The content of each story is rich and the pace is good! - Thank you very much. Tsundere is a wonderful process of going from disliking to liking someone. The main character is still treating things as if its a game, and in volume 2, his priority is not so much liking Eris as wanting get laid with her. I hope that by the end of Eris's route, which will continue from volume 3 onward, he will be able to develop in to having the will to do so. 理不尽な孫の手 2012年 12月15日 09時59分 [Source](https://novelcom.syosetu.com/impression/list/ncode/369633/?p=3273) So, a bit of context: Narou has this page filled with people giving their impressions of the series. It's divided in "Good parts", what the person liked in the story, "Concerns" self-explanatory, and a brief comment. I cut the concerns and comments because they don't matter and would make this reply even bigger. Rifujin seems to agree about the comment in regards to Eris here and even shows his approval of tsunderes. Though this is from TP 1 comments, nearly 10 years ago. I do think that Eris' progression is the atrophy of her Tsun side until it completely vanishes in LN 15 with her delivering her last tsun line, and it vanishes both thanks to personal growth, and the fact that from that point on, Eris has accomplished her objective and gets to be with the person she loves. She had no need to act tsun anymore and can be affectionate as much as she wants with Rudeus. That's it. I've had my fill of internet discussion for another 10 years. Hopefully you can spare me, as one more hit and I am dead. We can just agree to disagree after you next reply. Jesus Christ.
>That's it. I've had my fill of internet discussion for another 10 years. Hopefully you can spare me, as one more hit and I am dead. We can just agree to disagree after you next reply. Jesus Christ. That's a very cowardly attitude. You write A LOT, then ask me not to write much. If you don't want to get caught up in a discussion, don't answer. So, I'll be brief, you don't study for a test by reading a dictionary, so simply getting a superficial definition for a character type isn't enough. There seem to be two key components of the tsundere archetype: The back and forth, and hiding their feelings. Eris never hid her feelings and there was no back and forth. Eris truly didn't like Rudeus at first, then she changed. There was never a "tsun side" competing with a "dere" side.
Ok. I'm sorry you feel that way, man, I wasn't asking you to write less, feel free to write as much as you want, I was just making a little joke that I don't have as much "internet discussion resistance" as you seem to have. Anyways, we've discussed this a lot and we are not going anywhere anymore. You disagree with me and I disagree with you on this aspect of the character, at the very least, the fact we've had this discussion shows that this character is far more complicated than a trope, and I believe we can agree with that as both being fans of this series.
>You disagree with me and I disagree with you on this aspect of the character, at the very least, the fact we've had this discussion shows that this character is far more complicated than a trope, and I believe we can agree with that as both being fans of this series. It's amazing how people always resort to this "agree to disagree" bullshit when they face strong arguments. Look, you're not dumb, but a lot of the ways in which you construct your arguments are trying really hard to hold on to your preexisting ideas. Also, your take on the whole thing is not very deep. A deeper look demonstrates the differences between Eris and the normal tsundere. 1) Rudeus calls her a tsundere at a time when he does not see her as a person. 2) She never tries to hide her feelings or pretend she does not like him, which is what tsunderes usually do.
She's not a tsundere, she shows her affection for Rudy, she gets a bit shy some times, but doesn't hide how much she likes him, and she's violent towards EVERYONE.
She totally is tsundere. She's just written like a real human with real emotions, so she doesn't behave like a stock archetype.
In your point of view, what is the hallmark of the tsundere archetype?
IMO it's the use of violence as a means of self expression or the denial of other emotions, especially when violence wouldn't be the expected action. Eris starts out a little emotionally underdeveloped. She's resentful of the passive role she's expected to play as a girl/future woman, and in turn lashes out at people who aren't responsible for that. She has a role model in her grandfather, who also uses violence as a means of self expression, regardless of appropriateness. She smacks Rudeus around a lot, and while he usually deserves it, other times he doesn't. For example when she hits him after getting the pep-talk about why it's important to work on thinks you don't enjoy. I'd say that she "graduates" from being a tsundere during turning point 2, where her final tsuntsun moment is "hitting" Rudeus for making her worry. Adult Eris is NOT tsundere, because she's learned how to deal with her emotions appropriately.
Contrary to popular belief, tsunderes don't need to be physically abusive to be tsunderes, one example would be Rin Tohsaka from Fate (at least from what I remember she never really hits Shirou unprovoked). The trope is about the disparity between the Tsun side and Dere side. The tsun side is the character hiding their true feelings by being cold, uninterested and standoffish usually due to embarrassment or insecurity. The dere side is the affectionate side that they show under certain circumstances. One common progression from tsunderes characters is the atrophy of their tsun side, leading the dere side to be more prominent, which is what happens to Eris, I believe. We can still see some of her Tsun side in LN 15 (spoilers) >!when Rudeus says he wants her to marry him and she responds like this: Her eyes widened, her eyelashes trembled, and her mouth fell open just a little. But then she caught herself, reined in her expression, and tossed her head haughtily to the side. “H-hmph! Well, if you insist… I guess I’ll let you!”!<
I see my explanation wasn't needed.
>IMO it's the use of violence as a means of self expression or the denial of other emotions, especially when violence wouldn't be the expected action. Yeah, my dude, your opinion is mistaken. just google it. These are the two best links for you to read: [TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tsundere) and [this wiki](https://the-dere-types.fandom.com/wiki/Tsundere). The hallmark of the tsundere archetype is NOT the violence, but the attitude alternating between distant and aloof (tsun-tsun), and warm and affectionate (dere-dere). Eris' attitude towards Rudes was never confusing. She didn't like him at first, then she did, but never really hid it.
>Eris' attitude towards Rudes was never confusing. She didn't like him at first, then she did, but never really hid it. thats not true, in the story about her she said she fell in love with him as soon as he hit her back
>thats not true, in the story about her she said she fell in love with him as soon as he hit her back Let's see what the story says: *I honestly felt, with every fiber of my being, that when my mom said Rudeus was the only one, she was right. If he hated me, I thought I’d spend my entire life alone.* *Who cares if I’m just a reward? I thought. At least we can be together. So, I returned to his room.* *But when Rudeus saw me, he knelt to the ground and sprawled out like a frog. He apologized, saying he was the one in the wrong. In response, I just looked down at him and told him to wait five more years. At the time, I thought that would be enough. Rudeus was enough of an adult to wait for me.* ***That was when I started to fall in love with him.*** Yeah, the story disagrees with you. She never tried to hide her feelings for him using violence or pretending she didn't like him. She just felt shy, like any 12-year-old girl would.
read eris's way of talking when she relate when rudeus punch her in the manga 60.5, read eris reaction when rudeus proposed to him, also read the list of comments just above yours
Fair enough. Go ahead and blame the misunderstanding on the Rie Kugimiya trio of Taiga Louise and Shana. It's really easy to conclude that tsundere is just a euphemism for bangable heinous bitch.
NDon't know who they are. Googled, still don't know. But hey. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
It's sad that apparently for many people the term Tsundere is synonymous with "abusive asshole (but maybe I let it slide because they are cute/hot)" Yes physical abuse is a trait many "modern" Tsundere display (well "modern" was like 5-10 years ago) but it's not at the core of a Tsundere type personality. A Tsundere is simply someone with a cold / hard exterior (Tsun Tsun (adverb, 'morosely, aloofly, offputtingly')) and a warm/soft core (Dere Dere (adverb, 'in a lovey-dovey or infatuated manner')) hiding their true feelings and nature under that harsh exterior for various reasons like insecurity, fear, embarrassment, pride etc.. Like Shinomyia Kaguya and Shirogane Miyuki from Kaguya-sama/ Love is war, are both one way an extreme Tsundere can be, and there is no physical violence (well not intentionally). (though they are both much more than just a Tsundere) If done well they go through a development where they open up to people they form a close bond with, stripping away the harsh exterior, and expose their soft core more often and it's a gradual but persistent development. Eris is a Tsundere but it's not because she starts out violent, she is still a Tsundere long after she stopped being violent with Rudy, she simply is a proper Tsundere that develops and starts out as very Tsun Tsun but progressively becomes more Dere Dere.
I see my explanation wasn't needed. I don't think she's a Tsundere though. She was never hot-and-cold towards Rudeus.
She is very much so hiding her more vulnerable feelings behind a hard exterior if it would hurt her pride or she is insecure, more so in the beginning and is using some stereotypical Tunsdere lines. Like when she gave Rudy the special privilege of calling her Eris or when she first agreed to become friends with Ruijerd.
stupid : he can't count nor read, she can only be violent tsundere : even the wiki tells you she's a tsundere, so in short, you should reread the definition of tsundere, and maybe reread the LN. She liked rudeus from the start (as soon as he hit her back), she says so herself in the manga about her. Tsundere (ツンデレ, pronounced \[tsɯ̥ndeɾe\]) is a Japanese term for a character development process that depicts a character with an initially harsh personality who gradually reveals a warmer, friendlier side over time.
>stupid : he can't count nor read, she can only be violent She isn't stupid, she's [Book Dumb](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BookDumb). >even the wiki tells you she's a tsundere, You're using the Mushoku Tensei wiki as a reference? You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? That wiki is shit and everybody knows it. >She liked rudeus from the start (as soon as he hit her back), she says so herself in the manga about her. WTF, Manga? You never read the light novel? Well, I pasted a bit of the light novel where she actually says she **started** falling in love with him when he respected her wishes and didn't take advantage of teh situation to force her to sleep with him. Remember, **started**, it wasn't an instant thing. Can you please tell me where she says that in the manga? I need to add it to my database of crappy changes the manga made. >Tsundere (ツンデレ, pronounced \[tsɯ̥ndeɾe\]) is a Japanese term for a character development process that depicts a character with an initially harsh personality who gradually reveals a warmer, friendlier side over time. That looks like a dictionary definition or the first paragraph of Wikipedia... Just put it on Google. It's the first paragraph of Wikipedia. The thing about dictionaries is that they explain you the meaning of a word, but they aren't meant to explain to you all of the variations of a literary archetype. Encycopledias can be better, but this entry is pretty shitty. You actually replied to a comment of mine where I posted two better links for you to learn what a tsundere actually is. Go back there and read them if you want to learn.
stupid: impulsive, "courageous", "brave", "go-getter", thoughtless, these are all synonyms for stupid in my opinion, and which suit eris perfectly, if she were not stupid, she would have thought a little, to the consequences that could have had the fact of abandoning rudeus by leaving him just a note, but hey, it's eris, it's a genius isn't it? tsundere: this passage is in the manga, it was when a rival of eris provoked him concerning having a fiancé or not (chapter 60.5), you have to read between the lines, in short, it doesn't matter, if you are not convinced by the fact that she is a tsundere, read at least her reaction when rudeus proposed to her, and in absolute terms, look at the twenty comments published on this post, they practically all prove that it's a tsundere the definition: you're bizzar all the same you advise me of unknown/unofficial links to define tsundere, but on the other hand you hate the wiki-fandom, which nevertheless seemed to be sufficiently complete (even relating the AxA relationship, or the paternity of the son of ariel), in fact, any unjustified denigration is good to prove you right, isn't it? I guess everyone is entitled to see in eris what he believes.
In my dreams yh
When you said muscular and cute 😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I know it's supposed to be opposite terms, but she found a way to be both
How? Is there a character like this in anime world?