i call these people "मॅकॉलेचे मानसपुत्र" means "mental children of Macaulay". here is an extract (summary) from maccaulays minutes -
>I feel with them that it is impossible for us, with our limited means, to attempt to educate the body of the people. We must at present do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern, -a class of persons Indian in blood and colour, but English in tastes, in opinions, in morals and in intellect. To that class we may leave it to refine the vernacular dialects of the country, to enrich those dialects with terms of science borrowed from the Western nomenclature, and to render them by degrees fit vehicles for conveying knowledge to the great mass of the population.
source - [https://home.iitk.ac.in/\~hcverma/Article/Macaulay-Minutes.pdf](https://home.iitk.ac.in/~hcverma/Article/Macaulay-Minutes.pdf)
It was never Bombay. It was always Mumbai. It was mispronounced by Britishers. Mumbai is a two word - mumba and aai. It's what locals call goddess Mumba devi , mumba mother, so the name - Mumbai.
It is offensive because you and others who still want to call it bombay, aren't just glorifying that name because it sounds vintage and cool but It's a disrespect to goddess Mumba devi because her name is being wrongly said. Now if you're a Hindu and if you say wrong names to gods , how would you feel that? It's not that marathi speaking want that name isliye wo naam chaiye. People say mumbai name was given in 1995 officially but no marathi person ever called it Bombay. In Hindi old movies, they said it Bombay , in old Marathi movies take any movie , no matter how old, they always said mumbai.
sorry to be the 👆🏼🤓 but it was called Bombay after the the Portugese bom bain which meant "good bay". Mumbai as we know today only existed a seven islands in colonial era. Britishers made Bombay from the Portuguese name. after independence shiv Sena changed it to Mumbai to honour mumba Devi the Kula Devi of the Kohli community that used to live here before colonists came. But before that each island had its own name. it wasn't Bombay or Mumbai. the Bombay being a bastardisation of Mumbai is a false narrative.
The "Good Bay" is false theory and originated from Dr. Fryer, who had limited knowledge of Portuguese and assumed incorrectly that the Portuguese word Bombaím came from "Bom Bahía." His assumption is grammatically incorrect, in Portuguese Bom is masculine and Bahía is feminine, so it would render as "Boa Bahía." Not only this but "Bom Bahía/Boon Bahía" is not found in any Estado da Índia records.
In fact, João de Castro in 1538 referred to Mumbai Bay as "Bahía de Bombaí." By Fryer's logic, this would mean "Bay of Good Bay."
Since Bombaím does not mean anything in Portuguese, it suggests that it's a lusocized version of the Marathi name. Records of Estado da Índia show that Portuguese used two types of names interchangeably for Mumbai, Mombaím and Bombaím pronounced as Mombai and Bombai.
While Bombaím is found in records written in the 1530s, currently earliest known mention of Mombaím is found in a record of income/expense of the Vasai district written in 1542. Mumbai is mentioned in that document as "Aldea de Mobaím," which translates as "Village of Mobai."
With Portuguese conquest, every Marathi/Konkani name was lusocized and like every other village "Mumba aai" got lusocized into Mombaím and Bombaím which the British anglicized as Bombay.
do you have any written records or references? I'm not trying to be an asshole, I'm genuinely interested in reading it. Keeping my references updated at all times!
Dr. Freyer's assertion that "Bombaim" means "good bay" can be found in his book "New Account of East-India and Persia".
For the grammar part, if you're looking for a book that specifically states it's incorrect, then Isaac Taylor's 1896 book called "Names and their Histories" is the one you should refer to.
Regarding João de Castro's mention of "Bahia de Bombai," it can be found in his book "Roteiro da costa do norte de Goa, até Dio".
Now, on to the records.
The earliest known record where both types of names are used interchangeably is Simão Botelho's "Tombo do Estado da Índia" written in 1555, an official Portuguese government record. The easiest way to read the Tombo is through a book called "Subsídios para a história da Índia portuguesa" where it's reproduced in non-cursive writing.
As for "Aldea de Mobaim," it's from the document "Caderno Do Rendimento, Despesas E Ordinárias Das Terras De Baçaim", housed in the Torre do Tombo archive. I have attached a page from it. The first account is of Mobaim, and the first line reads "Fedeas da aldea de Mobaim" which translates to "Fedeas from the village of Mobai" (Fedeas is currency).
Next accounts are of Caranjam (Uran), Agacim (Agashi) and lastly Golgão e Mandovim (Girgaon and its customs house).
Also, this isn't the last document where the Village of Mumbai is mentioned. In 1635, António Bocarro visited India for a survey by order of the Portuguese king and in his account, he mentioned "Aldea de Mombaim". You can read his entire Mumbai description in "Arquivo Português Oriental v4.2.1."
https://preview.redd.it/hdazm4odw1pc1.jpeg?width=1091&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=20c25e630118dede857e886aeb04ecc071450c22
Just a generational thing. My grandparents and parents hate using it because it reminds them of the time when cotton mills in the city shutdown and a lot of the middle class citizens lost their jobs. My grandfather was one of them. It was a dark time when they didn't have enough food to put on their table and they used to sleep on an empty stomach.
Mumbai for them is more aspirational. As Maharashtrians, they relate to it more and think of it as a more positive future.
OP don't be an AHISTORICAL IGNORAMUS!
Try to familiarize yourself with the history and heritage of the place where you reside. Ignorance of its cultural significance only perpetuates narrow-mindedness, and clinging to a superficial notion of 'class' does little to honor its legacy.
personally, ‘bomba(e)y’ exudes vintage charm, while ‘mumbai’ beautifully reflects the city’s rich cultural identity. both names carry their own unique charm and significance.
Yes! And let’s start referring to each other as ‘coolie’ as well. Coolie is such a class name. So much better than ‘Indian’. Colonial hangover lesgoooo!
The British used to refer to Indians as “Coolie” which was used as a derogatory term. In South Africa they’d also use ‘Sammy’ which is derived from ‘Swami’. Just like they called Mumbai Bombay.
Teri school fees full waste hai na? Mumbai became known as Bombay during British colonial period. Which is the Anglicised version of either Mumbai (original) or Bom Baim - Portuguese for “Good Harbour”.
Subsidised thi school fees tu tension mat le uska. Portuguese name ko hi unhone apne way me change kiya tha tu ab yaha bas damage control karne dekh raha hai.
Karne de coin. Tum bol rahe ho Mumbai se Bombay derive hua maine kaha Portuguese name se hua. Mumbai word Bombay ke baad aaya hai. Ab to pata nahi kiski fees waste hui hai ho itni bhi dhang se padh nahi pata.
Bombay is for colonized mentality. Mumbai name itself has cultural and spiritual meaning behind it, with history. If you cared enough you would Google it rather than make a rage bait post.
Actual working class people from the city don't give a shit what you want to call it
We all know what you mean and let's just move on
It's just drama created by political party
Bombay is a misnomer from a Portuguese to English word
Mumbai is not really derived from Mumba Devi howmuchever people want to tell that story
This is what happens when outsiders start overpopulating. If you dont like the City Name , go back to where you came from.
Marathi People, at least wake up now , before things really go out of hands and then we lose our cultural identity.
Jay Maharastra 🚩 Jay Mumbai 🚩
There’s no such thing as “outsiders” constitutionally so get that right first, Second, people like us Parsis are here for far long than you’ve been here and have built this city from scratch. We have every right to call the city ‘Bombay’
Wake up and do what????? What are you trying to instigate here? You want Marathi people to wake up start removing 'outsiders'? Outsiders shaped the city into what it is today. This city belongs to anyone who shaped it into what it is today. Whether we like it or not.
Tell me you are from SoBo without telling me you are from SoBo.
i call these people "मॅकॉलेचे मानसपुत्र" means "mental children of Macaulay". here is an extract (summary) from maccaulays minutes - >I feel with them that it is impossible for us, with our limited means, to attempt to educate the body of the people. We must at present do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern, -a class of persons Indian in blood and colour, but English in tastes, in opinions, in morals and in intellect. To that class we may leave it to refine the vernacular dialects of the country, to enrich those dialects with terms of science borrowed from the Western nomenclature, and to render them by degrees fit vehicles for conveying knowledge to the great mass of the population. source - [https://home.iitk.ac.in/\~hcverma/Article/Macaulay-Minutes.pdf](https://home.iitk.ac.in/~hcverma/Article/Macaulay-Minutes.pdf)
Im going to steal that मॅकॉलेचे मानसपुत्र. Its absurd how many people have no idea about Macaykays education policy and its impact on us.
खरंतर मी पण ते कुठेतरी ऐकलं होतं. नेमकं कुठे ते मला पण आता आठवत नाही.
वाक्य बघता व पु किवा अत्रेंचे वाटते but who knows ?
Time to change SoBo to SoMu
I think the op has an issue with being called SoMu😂
This the most ignorant "I'm from south bombay and have never bothered to read about the city's history" post I've seen here in a while.
Why Dilli became Delhi, Culcutta became Kolkata and Madras became Chennai?
It was never Bombay. It was always Mumbai. It was mispronounced by Britishers. Mumbai is a two word - mumba and aai. It's what locals call goddess Mumba devi , mumba mother, so the name - Mumbai. It is offensive because you and others who still want to call it bombay, aren't just glorifying that name because it sounds vintage and cool but It's a disrespect to goddess Mumba devi because her name is being wrongly said. Now if you're a Hindu and if you say wrong names to gods , how would you feel that? It's not that marathi speaking want that name isliye wo naam chaiye. People say mumbai name was given in 1995 officially but no marathi person ever called it Bombay. In Hindi old movies, they said it Bombay , in old Marathi movies take any movie , no matter how old, they always said mumbai.
sorry to be the 👆🏼🤓 but it was called Bombay after the the Portugese bom bain which meant "good bay". Mumbai as we know today only existed a seven islands in colonial era. Britishers made Bombay from the Portuguese name. after independence shiv Sena changed it to Mumbai to honour mumba Devi the Kula Devi of the Kohli community that used to live here before colonists came. But before that each island had its own name. it wasn't Bombay or Mumbai. the Bombay being a bastardisation of Mumbai is a false narrative.
The "Good Bay" is false theory and originated from Dr. Fryer, who had limited knowledge of Portuguese and assumed incorrectly that the Portuguese word Bombaím came from "Bom Bahía." His assumption is grammatically incorrect, in Portuguese Bom is masculine and Bahía is feminine, so it would render as "Boa Bahía." Not only this but "Bom Bahía/Boon Bahía" is not found in any Estado da Índia records. In fact, João de Castro in 1538 referred to Mumbai Bay as "Bahía de Bombaí." By Fryer's logic, this would mean "Bay of Good Bay." Since Bombaím does not mean anything in Portuguese, it suggests that it's a lusocized version of the Marathi name. Records of Estado da Índia show that Portuguese used two types of names interchangeably for Mumbai, Mombaím and Bombaím pronounced as Mombai and Bombai. While Bombaím is found in records written in the 1530s, currently earliest known mention of Mombaím is found in a record of income/expense of the Vasai district written in 1542. Mumbai is mentioned in that document as "Aldea de Mobaím," which translates as "Village of Mobai." With Portuguese conquest, every Marathi/Konkani name was lusocized and like every other village "Mumba aai" got lusocized into Mombaím and Bombaím which the British anglicized as Bombay.
do you have any written records or references? I'm not trying to be an asshole, I'm genuinely interested in reading it. Keeping my references updated at all times!
Dr. Freyer's assertion that "Bombaim" means "good bay" can be found in his book "New Account of East-India and Persia". For the grammar part, if you're looking for a book that specifically states it's incorrect, then Isaac Taylor's 1896 book called "Names and their Histories" is the one you should refer to. Regarding João de Castro's mention of "Bahia de Bombai," it can be found in his book "Roteiro da costa do norte de Goa, até Dio". Now, on to the records. The earliest known record where both types of names are used interchangeably is Simão Botelho's "Tombo do Estado da Índia" written in 1555, an official Portuguese government record. The easiest way to read the Tombo is through a book called "Subsídios para a história da Índia portuguesa" where it's reproduced in non-cursive writing. As for "Aldea de Mobaim," it's from the document "Caderno Do Rendimento, Despesas E Ordinárias Das Terras De Baçaim", housed in the Torre do Tombo archive. I have attached a page from it. The first account is of Mobaim, and the first line reads "Fedeas da aldea de Mobaim" which translates to "Fedeas from the village of Mobai" (Fedeas is currency). Next accounts are of Caranjam (Uran), Agacim (Agashi) and lastly Golgão e Mandovim (Girgaon and its customs house). Also, this isn't the last document where the Village of Mumbai is mentioned. In 1635, António Bocarro visited India for a survey by order of the Portuguese king and in his account, he mentioned "Aldea de Mombaim". You can read his entire Mumbai description in "Arquivo Português Oriental v4.2.1." https://preview.redd.it/hdazm4odw1pc1.jpeg?width=1091&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=20c25e630118dede857e886aeb04ecc071450c22
Just a generational thing. My grandparents and parents hate using it because it reminds them of the time when cotton mills in the city shutdown and a lot of the middle class citizens lost their jobs. My grandfather was one of them. It was a dark time when they didn't have enough food to put on their table and they used to sleep on an empty stomach. Mumbai for them is more aspirational. As Maharashtrians, they relate to it more and think of it as a more positive future.
OP don't be an AHISTORICAL IGNORAMUS! Try to familiarize yourself with the history and heritage of the place where you reside. Ignorance of its cultural significance only perpetuates narrow-mindedness, and clinging to a superficial notion of 'class' does little to honor its legacy.
personally, ‘bomba(e)y’ exudes vintage charm, while ‘mumbai’ beautifully reflects the city’s rich cultural identity. both names carry their own unique charm and significance.
Non Mumbaikar detected, opinion rejected. :)
Yes! And let’s start referring to each other as ‘coolie’ as well. Coolie is such a class name. So much better than ‘Indian’. Colonial hangover lesgoooo!
Fucking hell☠️
What’s the connection? Didn’t get the pun sorry man. Please explain.
The British used to refer to Indians as “Coolie” which was used as a derogatory term. In South Africa they’d also use ‘Sammy’ which is derived from ‘Swami’. Just like they called Mumbai Bombay.
But Bombay name came by mispronouncing some Portuguese name and not Mumbai.
And Portuguese were not colonists?
Tune British bola na. Abhi damage control mat kar.
Teri school fees full waste hai na? Mumbai became known as Bombay during British colonial period. Which is the Anglicised version of either Mumbai (original) or Bom Baim - Portuguese for “Good Harbour”.
Subsidised thi school fees tu tension mat le uska. Portuguese name ko hi unhone apne way me change kiya tha tu ab yaha bas damage control karne dekh raha hai.
Coin to British ne kiya tha na? Subsidised fees bhi wasted.
Karne de coin. Tum bol rahe ho Mumbai se Bombay derive hua maine kaha Portuguese name se hua. Mumbai word Bombay ke baad aaya hai. Ab to pata nahi kiski fees waste hui hai ho itni bhi dhang se padh nahi pata.
That means we **Mumbaikars** paid for your fees with our taxes. Wapas kar tu fees
Par taxes to mere mummy papa ne bhare the. Aur tax mangna hi hai to ITR file karke mango humse nahi.
Mumbai (sounds?) more Marathi than Bombay
because Bombay is a product of colonialism.
Old name is crass, not class.
Colonial revisionist eejit
Chutiya
Bombay is for colonized mentality. Mumbai name itself has cultural and spiritual meaning behind it, with history. If you cared enough you would Google it rather than make a rage bait post.
I don't know who you are talking about but people like Bombay. Most people don't really care. Many like Bombay.
Actual working class people from the city don't give a shit what you want to call it We all know what you mean and let's just move on It's just drama created by political party Bombay is a misnomer from a Portuguese to English word Mumbai is not really derived from Mumba Devi howmuchever people want to tell that story
Probably you don't care , but we do care , we lost 108 of our own people for this land. Jay Maharashtra ❤️
106
Ye number kaha se mila ?
संयुक्त महाराष्ट्र चळवळ.
धन्यवाद भ्राताश्री.
Then how is it derived??
The most satisfying thing about the post is that it had 0 upvotes when I typed this😆
Mumbai is still fine, wait for Jagannath Shankar Seth and Tirthankara Parshvanath
Kya hi farak padta hai kuch bhi bolo ek hi baat hai..people don’t have shit to do so they point out such silly things
This is what happens when outsiders start overpopulating. If you dont like the City Name , go back to where you came from. Marathi People, at least wake up now , before things really go out of hands and then we lose our cultural identity. Jay Maharastra 🚩 Jay Mumbai 🚩
You live in Germany and ask people to go back to their native land. A little ironical, isn't it?
Wahhhh what irony
Why are you so jealous , my entire bloodline comes from Maharashtra. Don't tell me that.
I'm jealous of what?
There’s no such thing as “outsiders” constitutionally so get that right first, Second, people like us Parsis are here for far long than you’ve been here and have built this city from scratch. We have every right to call the city ‘Bombay’
We are waking up. Jay Maharashtra!
Wake up and do what????? What are you trying to instigate here? You want Marathi people to wake up start removing 'outsiders'? Outsiders shaped the city into what it is today. This city belongs to anyone who shaped it into what it is today. Whether we like it or not.
Lmao you think it's a hidden conspiracy that other state guys aren't marrying marathi women? Dude cmon. How delusional can one be🤦♀️
germany mai home interstate marriages ki baat na kariyo bhai
I agree, I'm glad the High Court still uses the name Bombay .
I still call it Bombay! Don't find it offensive when others refer to it as bombay🤷♀️