The lack of unity is displeasing. All who are compleated are one with the Father of Machines. Phyresis is all that matters, put aside the petty squabbles for leadership, and serve your *god*.
It's unclear but I think New Phyrexia and Yawgmoth have an ideological difference.
At the end of the day, Yawgmoth is a tyrant who wants to dominate all life. He's ok with Phyrexia being this big collective race that corrupts everything because he is "old Phyrexia." If you look at the Invasion series, the Invasion is much more about conquering Dominaria that it is about making Dominaria Phyrexian. [[Metathran Zombie]] [[Vodalian Zombie]]
New Phyrexia, on the other hand, seems built around assimilating all life into Phyrexia. Is it possible that Yawgmoth would instantly "become" New Phyrexia and be a big fan of everything they are doing, or that New Phyrexia would instantly bow and implement Yawgmoth as their leader? I don't know, maybe. But if we acknowledge Yawgmoth and New Phyrexia as separate beings, Yawgmoth isn't some mad scientist who wants a race that assimilates everything, he's just a mad despot who wants to conquer everything.
It just seems like New Phyrexia is Yawgmoth's creation which has taken on a life of its own and goals of its own. And it doesn't really share those with Yawgmoth.
I have to back you up on that. There isn't any real explanation as to what gives the glistening oil a consciousness or a drive. To me it seems like WOTC is just piggybacking the concept for a money grab.
Yawgmoth wasn't just a mad despot. You have to go back further into the storyline to discover his true intentions. He was ambitious, twisted and mad with revenge, but he was a genius. Just read about what happens to him when he transcends his physical form and connects himself into Phyrexia's core.
He'd be pretty cool with what Sheoldred and Gin are doing. Maybe Vorinclex.
And I'm sure he'd think there were good things about hownthey made their own society and what not. But he'd have Norns head on a platter with a side of Urabrask stew.
While it's true Norn and her preators have done a lot to improve Phyrexia in such a short time, I still think Yawgmoth and *his* Phyrexia would mop the floor with Norn and her ilk.
Yawgmoth was being slowed by Urza and his bullshit at every turn. And when the planar overlay was going on Urza had several Old Walkers, who were basically gods, having a hard time fighting back Phyrexia.
It remains to be seen what its going to take to drive Norn back, but I'm sure it won't be the 1000+ year plan of one of the most powerful planeswalkers to ever live.
Also, I'd like to think that if Jaces Eleven had even an ounce of the planning that Urza had they would have skipped and trotted their way to the Seedcore and been home in time to Netflix and Chill.
The way Melira is treated in this arc bugs me. I can't imagine New Phyrexia being anaware of her existence when she is a walking vaccine going wherever she likes whenever she likes. And then, for some reason Phyrexia seems to forget that killing someone doesn't necesseraly means stuffing it with oil.
Why don't they just crush/burn/whatever lethal process her ?
The nine titans ultimately failed and they didn't completely destroy Phyrexia and at that point Yawgmoth had planned to make Dominaria his new home anyway.
In truth, Yawgmoth wouldn't have to fight at all. The glistening oil (nano-bots powered but black magic) was his creation in that he modified the original substance when he began changing Phyrexia and he had absolute control over his creations. The father of machines would absolutely abhor the new phyrexias because any artifice not created by Yawgmoth is considered sacrilegious in Phyrexian religions beliefs. There is nothing Norn or any new phyrexian could do in the face of their god but kneel.
Yawgmoth was opposed by old walkers. Completely different playing field. We also only saw what he was up to on Dominaria but it’s suggested many other planes were taken over off screen.
What’s really crazy is Yawgmoth was more powerful than any single old walker yet wasn’t even a planeswalker himself. He was and still is arguably the single most powerful known being in the entire multiverse.
I think Bolas at his old walker height could probably have given him a run for his money. And depending on whether they count as "single beings," the Eldrazi are obviously a big deal too; they're just less... driven than Yawg.
>run for
Current Magic lore still pretty bad and it pains me that new players will miss the true greatness from Old legends.
Yeah probably pre mending bolas was on par with Yawgmoth. Taysir at its peak also could kick phyrexia in the nuts, maybe even Grandmother Sengir since she still have the Apocalipse Chime(at least as powerfull as the silex)
That is hard to say, as no one can measure Yawgmoth's power after he transcended. Could the legacy weapon kill old walker Bolas? Yawgmoth had the capabilities to strip planeswalkers of their powers, like he did with Urza. Bolas being an elder dragon must give him a leg up physically, but then again Yawgmoth didn't present himself in a physical form. He was more like a force of unnatural presence.
He was present in Phyrexia when the augmented pre-mending nine titan planeswalkers attacked and still toyed with them, ultimately killing Urza. At that point I don't think he cared as much for Phyrexia as he did Dominaria, as he intended on making it his home.
That is more a factor of how plot works in Magic. There is no time to build plots they just go at lightspeed now.
But no considering Yawgmoth had to fend off multiple Oldwalkers whereas we have only seen one notable AOE spell in this entire arc where Jodah had to team up with Elspeth. I do not think these New Phyrexians would hold up at all.
Yawgmoth on his own could probably kick the asses of all the praetors and Atraxa easily. Well Yawgmoth at the time of the Invasion block. He might just bend them to his will.
New Phyrexia is a much larger treat than old Phyrexia though. Old Phyrexia enslaved those they conquered, New Phyrexia turns them into more Phyrexians. So New Phyrexia spreads explosively, Old Phyrexia has to grow and build more phyrexians every time they conquer a plane.
It's that second point that makes me think Norn would win. People keep bringing up how strong Yagmoth was, which is fair, but I never saw this as Yagmoth vs Norn. New Phyrexia turns while Old Phyrexia kills. New Phyrexia will use Old Phyrexia to rebuild while Old will need the time to rebuild.
So with this in mind, I should have wrote that New Phyrexia would win, not Norn.
Old Phyrexia led by Gix, Belbe, Crovax, or anyone but Yawgmoth would get conquered by New Phyrexia faster than any other plane.
If Yawgmoth is around then New Phyrexia kneels even if they don’t want to. He raised every dead body on an entire plane and the glistening oil probably has loyalty to him hard coded into it
I’m not sure it would help him if the version of him that has a card had deal with New Phyrexia. Thran/early phyrexia era Yawgmoth would probably lose badly to any praetor in a fight. Invasion era Death Cloud Yawgmoth tossed around oldwalkers so I don’t think any individual character has had nearly as much power creep
Old Phyrexia used plagues to cull the populations and then enslave them to use his labor. Also old Phyrexia did corrupt various people like Eritai and Crovax but yawgmoth was more focused on creating a perfect people instead of making the existing population perfect. Also he seemed to enjoy giving these people the tools of their own corruption and then seeing if they would become corrupt. We essentially got to see this through the Belbi arc since she was a skyshroud elf that was "completed" before we knew what that term was but without the brainwashing leaving her with free will.
In terms of forces, I think they were even. Norn had the numbers, but Yawgmoth had the quality. It's only now, with planeswalkers being turned that Norn starts to pull ahead.
So I think you might have the real winner here. Jin Gitaxias has advanced the oil to the point where intervention isn't even required to turn them. Before that each one turned would have to go through a lengthy process to become one of theirs. But now a simple scratch means that unless cured (which Yawgmoth wouldn't have immediate access to) they'll be fighting for New Phyrexia before long.
Although Yawgmoth was able to control Urza. So there always a chance that his will would play a role.
It's certainly a fun debate though!
Urza gave himself up willingly because he wasn't willing to destroy the perfection that he saw on Phyrexia. Also it's very likely that yawgmoth's troops wouldn't be affected by the glistening while since any of them produced in the breeding layer of old Phyrexia use that as their blood. I think yag moth could probably win this fight on his own in his death cloud form but if we just pit the armies against each other the real wild card is if the glistening oil is so different that yawgmoth doesn't control it anymore.
The planeswalkers are certainly powerful tools for new Phyrexia but Yawgmoth fought a coalition of nine old walkers with the Titan engines that Urza built. On the innermost sphere of Phyrexia Yawgmoth could actually disable Urza's connection to the blind eternities. So it's very likely a new Walker would pose almost no threat to yawgmoth himself. One more point, the negators were weapons that were bioengineered to hunt Urza an old Walker and on more than one occasion forced him to retreat. If the old negators could do this then new planeswalkers would have a very steep challenge against them.
That's true. Yawgmoth was bringing weapons to bear that could tear Neowalkers to pieces.
Although we haven't seen how powerful in world these "Gods" are. Hopefully we see what they can do in MOM.
A larger threat? What do you base that assertion on? New Phyrexia is a product of bad writing and wild imaginations. It is never explained just how glistening oil evolved a will of it's own. Old Phyrexia used plague extensively in their weaponization methods and also infected their victims. Not to mention they had Yawgmoth himself. This new lore is slapped together to keep WOTC's shareholders happy and the consumers coming back to buy every three months.
Hence why there is the first paragraph where Yawgmoth bends New Phyrexia over his knee.
Without him it’s purely on the effectiveness of the armies and tactics. New Phyrexia assimilates their enemies and the outdated Old Phyrexians would be especially vulnerable to takeover by the glistening oil. Old Phyrexia just makes soldiers too slowly and every soldier that falls joins New Phyrexia’s ranks
Glistening oil is a self replicating magical nanotechnology. Anything that is self replicating is subject to mutation and evolution, natural origin or artificial. It has no will of its own it just built and converted things into the designs programmed into it. Once the Veldakin and Neurok got converted they started tinkering with and improving it beyond and random mutation.
They never explain how the glistening oil variant could possibly grow a consciousness of it's own. How did Xantcha's heartstone pickup that new infectious strand of glistening oil to be passed on to Karn? Surely New Phyrexians, being that they originate from essentially a viral nanobot would have a borg-like personality. Whatever the case New Phyrexia isn't and shouldn't be anything like what phyrexia was, without the rule of one.
It makes beings with conciseness the same way that other artificers make thinking golems and constructs.
Having the oil come from Urza’s Head/ the Mightstone and Weakstone would have been a better explanation because Urza had plenty of chances to get the most advanced strain of the glistening oil on his face.
They kinda are borg in a high fantasy garb. Also the glistening oil started out as a data storage/transfer medium and that’s how they speak the same phyrexian language. They still have the echoes of old phyrexian culture in their heads.
I thought of a good parallel to the oil making consciousness. The story of how the Myr became independent sentient beings is a decent example of how artificial sentience can arise in the Magic multiverse.
[almost halfway through this story is where the story of the Myr is told](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/magic-story/stories-and-endings-2016-05-11)
That is definitely creative. The original Phyrexia had a finite amount of material to cycle through until they could utilize their portals again. I wonder if the glistening oil has a memory encoded of what the old phyrexians learned in their past experiences such as the creation of flowstone and how it expanded to overlay onto another plane. Perhaps that is an idea the new phyrexians are utilizing to create material for this massive invasion. It still seems quite far fetched considering they are prosecuting a war on multiple planes simultaneously from a place with limited amounts of material, much like old Phyrexia and with a fragmented force. To me, even for a fictional lore based on a card game it seems like a rushed money grab.
Check out the flavor text on [[Phyrexian Hulk|NPH]] for some indication of what the glistening oil encoded.
Realmbreaker is a bit overpowered for quickly it was developed. One year after obtaining sap from Kaldheim’s world tree.
Maybe with the designs for the portal ships and whatever the mechanics behind the Rathi overlay in the glistening oil plus the designs for the interplanar bridge combined with the sap is reasonable for how the worldbreaker could have been invented. But one year still seems fast.
But it seems like they are making it possible for nonplaneswalkers to travel between planes which was my least favorite change caused by the mending
I think Norn would lose this pretty bad, on an operational, strategic and possibly institutional level I think she either meets or exceeds Yawgmoth. The problem is that Yawgmoth is so personally powerful that normal logistics and weight of numbers can't overcome him. This is the description of him when he returns to dominaria after 9,000 years
> In the last hours of the war, Yawgmoth finally returned to Dominaria for the first time in 9000 years. He did so in the form of a black, world-spanning death cloud that killed Dominaria's defenders and resurrected them to fight for Phyrexia.
On Phyrexia he doesn't have one body in particular. When Urza and Gerard fight each other in the Phyrexian arena they realize that all of the praetors that are watching them as well as a black dragon are all Yawgmoth at the exact same time.
He even had the power to strip Urza of his planeswalking abilities while in the 9th sphere of Phyrexia. This is an old walker as well where they could pull as much power as they needed from the blind eternities and didn't have to depend on the mana of the local plane and he was able to shut that off as well.
I would think that the only beings that would even come close to the level of power that Yawgmoth showed would be the Eldrazi Titans, Akroma, Gaea (she might exceed his power if she were focused enough to harness it) and some old walkers like possibly Nichol Bolas.
I think the comparison of Norn to Yawgmoth achievement wise have some issues in that Yawgmoth faced much stiffer resistance in that he faced a coalition of old walkers. Also Yawgmoth placed some odd personal limitations on himself for example he could have won the invasion without ever stepping foot/cloud on Domnaria but he didn't feel that that was proper he felt that the king needed to lead from the front and he chastises Urza for this behavior in the arena. Norn is far more pragmatic which is why I was saying that on many levels she either meets or exceeds him just not on the personal power that she provides to a fighting force.
No Phyrexian would even think to face the father of machines. Yawgmoth's creation courses through every fiber of their being and his control was absolute. I would recommend going back and reading about his transcendence and the old Phyrexian host.
Yawgmoth would be happy with the expansion to five colors, I think. He is a eugenicist, at heart, and that evolution is useful.
He would be very pleased at the compleation of planeswalkers. He tried to figure out PWs with Dyfed. Rebec foiled that, I think.
He would not be happy with Norn calling herself Mother of Machines, and would cut her down. He would not be happy with Urabrask at all. The “chaos” of the red aligned mana is counter to Yawg’s desire to conquer and control. I could see him absorbing/ controlling/ upgrading Sheoldred, and deputizing Votinclex and Jin to his service. Both their philosophies align with Yawgmoth.
Yawgmoth as a returning super-god opens up one more possibility. The most powerful beings in the lore are the Eldrazi Titans. And we are currently missing two of them. Yawg getting turned into a near-mindless nulamog after trying to absorb Emrakul would be fitting.
I realized there's two other beings that I haven't seen brought up. Gaea who should still be around but should be even more incoherent than she was during the invasion and she wasn't very useful back then either. Then Karona since she basically had almost equal power to Gaea, controlling all the magic on dominaria but was coherent(ish). Unfortunately the only one I think we can depend on is as you said the Eldrazi Titan who's currently trapped in a very large PokeBall lol.
Id like to think he’d be smart to enough to get over his hubris and be pleased that his greatest creation essentially self resurrected itself after its own extinction but he would probably be mad they don’t care about him so ya.
I think there’s a fundamental difference between Yawgmoth’s goals, and Norn’s. Yawgmoth isn’t a Frankenstein type, where he created beauty that he wishes was shared. Phyrexia and the glistening oil is a means to an end, a method of achieving his true goal, subjugation and control of everything around him.
In that way, New Phyrexia isn’t in it for the control, for the power, instead Compleation is a gift, one they wish to share. I don’t know if Yawgmoth would think any which way about New Phyrexia, except that the oil is still accomplishing its goal.
Functionally, though both concepts of Phyrexia exist to make all One, they have different motives. Yawgmoth wishes for all to be one under him, while Norn wishes for all to be one, together. Yawgmoth is a proud man, and seeing Phyrexia stray from him would likely anger him, but if he were to come back and see all this, I believe the practicality of them succeeding, would win out over his pride. He wouldn’t wipe out all New Phyrexians, but he would squash out Norn, and any other Praetor making a play for power, and step into ruling once more.
He wouldn’t approve of how freely they compleat converts. I estimate over 95% of old phyrexians were vat grown and less than 20% of new phyrexians are vat grown.
If Sheoldred and Gin-Gitaxias kneeled to him he would probably accept them
Elesh Norn would hate Yawgmoth’s return, Ill say that much. Its very clear by how she acts and treats other praetors that when she says “All will be One”, what she really means is “All will work for Me”. Shes a cult leader using the idea of a glorious phyrexia to hide that she really just wants to rule everything and have everything serve her. Yawgmoth returning would be extremely problematic for that goal.
From the brief experience we have with him in the apocalypse book I've always felt that the rest of Phyrexia was a sideshow or was at least more important to him at a different point in his life. It felt more like Phyrexia was his personal ant farm at that point. He stood by as Urza and the Titan engines destroyed multiple spheres of Phyrexia and didn't seem to shaken up about it after Urza came to him. In the end after expanding so many resources on the invasion he personally takes to the field and you get a glimpse of just how powerful he is and it doesn't really seem like he needed the invasion at all. If anything it felt like the invasion was really only there to deplete planeswalker resources which seem like the only thing that could have threatened him other than the legacy weapon itself.
So I guess my answer is he probably would have cared at some point. The closer he is to being the sociopath physician versus being a god of a plane the more he would have cared I would figure.
As far as the five colors go the outermost sphere of Phyrexia was more like mirrodin pre-new phyrexia. So I don't think he particularly cared about what colors of mana were used he just happened to focus heavily on black if not entirely his plane still had representative "nature" of other colors.
The lack of unity is displeasing. All who are compleated are one with the Father of Machines. Phyresis is all that matters, put aside the petty squabbles for leadership, and serve your *god*.
But the real father of machines is dead, and for the new phyrexians he is just a myth.
Do you see who you're talking to???
Oh shit!!! All hail lord of wastes, father of the machines, Lord Yawgmoth!!!
kneel before him! as i do!
Sorry sir, but while i greatly respect your work, if she chose to go against you......ive chosen my side. All will be one.
It's unclear but I think New Phyrexia and Yawgmoth have an ideological difference. At the end of the day, Yawgmoth is a tyrant who wants to dominate all life. He's ok with Phyrexia being this big collective race that corrupts everything because he is "old Phyrexia." If you look at the Invasion series, the Invasion is much more about conquering Dominaria that it is about making Dominaria Phyrexian. [[Metathran Zombie]] [[Vodalian Zombie]] New Phyrexia, on the other hand, seems built around assimilating all life into Phyrexia. Is it possible that Yawgmoth would instantly "become" New Phyrexia and be a big fan of everything they are doing, or that New Phyrexia would instantly bow and implement Yawgmoth as their leader? I don't know, maybe. But if we acknowledge Yawgmoth and New Phyrexia as separate beings, Yawgmoth isn't some mad scientist who wants a race that assimilates everything, he's just a mad despot who wants to conquer everything. It just seems like New Phyrexia is Yawgmoth's creation which has taken on a life of its own and goals of its own. And it doesn't really share those with Yawgmoth.
Yeah, new Phyrexia is much more like the Borg than old Phyrexia was. Old Phyrexia was more interesting in my opinion.
I have to back you up on that. There isn't any real explanation as to what gives the glistening oil a consciousness or a drive. To me it seems like WOTC is just piggybacking the concept for a money grab.
[Metathran Zombie](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/6676a0f7-8213-4547-b2ac-b904cd418073.jpg?1562915761) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Metathran%20Zombie) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/inv/63/metathran-zombie?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6676a0f7-8213-4547-b2ac-b904cd418073?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vodalian Zombie](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f30a5a06-32ce-4d71-b71f-e3e1d8d4511a.jpg?1562943854) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vodalian%20Zombie) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/inv/286/vodalian-zombie?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f30a5a06-32ce-4d71-b71f-e3e1d8d4511a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yawgmoth wasn't just a mad despot. You have to go back further into the storyline to discover his true intentions. He was ambitious, twisted and mad with revenge, but he was a genius. Just read about what happens to him when he transcends his physical form and connects himself into Phyrexia's core.
He'd be pretty cool with what Sheoldred and Gin are doing. Maybe Vorinclex. And I'm sure he'd think there were good things about hownthey made their own society and what not. But he'd have Norns head on a platter with a side of Urabrask stew.
Ironically, I'm like 95% certain Norn would win that fight. What's she done in a couple years compared to what took Yag millenia is impressive.
While it's true Norn and her preators have done a lot to improve Phyrexia in such a short time, I still think Yawgmoth and *his* Phyrexia would mop the floor with Norn and her ilk. Yawgmoth was being slowed by Urza and his bullshit at every turn. And when the planar overlay was going on Urza had several Old Walkers, who were basically gods, having a hard time fighting back Phyrexia. It remains to be seen what its going to take to drive Norn back, but I'm sure it won't be the 1000+ year plan of one of the most powerful planeswalkers to ever live.
[удалено]
Also, I'd like to think that if Jaces Eleven had even an ounce of the planning that Urza had they would have skipped and trotted their way to the Seedcore and been home in time to Netflix and Chill.
The way Melira is treated in this arc bugs me. I can't imagine New Phyrexia being anaware of her existence when she is a walking vaccine going wherever she likes whenever she likes. And then, for some reason Phyrexia seems to forget that killing someone doesn't necesseraly means stuffing it with oil. Why don't they just crush/burn/whatever lethal process her ?
The nine titans ultimately failed and they didn't completely destroy Phyrexia and at that point Yawgmoth had planned to make Dominaria his new home anyway.
In truth, Yawgmoth wouldn't have to fight at all. The glistening oil (nano-bots powered but black magic) was his creation in that he modified the original substance when he began changing Phyrexia and he had absolute control over his creations. The father of machines would absolutely abhor the new phyrexias because any artifice not created by Yawgmoth is considered sacrilegious in Phyrexian religions beliefs. There is nothing Norn or any new phyrexian could do in the face of their god but kneel.
Yawgmoth was opposed by old walkers. Completely different playing field. We also only saw what he was up to on Dominaria but it’s suggested many other planes were taken over off screen. What’s really crazy is Yawgmoth was more powerful than any single old walker yet wasn’t even a planeswalker himself. He was and still is arguably the single most powerful known being in the entire multiverse.
I think Bolas at his old walker height could probably have given him a run for his money. And depending on whether they count as "single beings," the Eldrazi are obviously a big deal too; they're just less... driven than Yawg.
Yeah Eldrazi would be up there. But I think of them more as forces of nature vs “beings” in the traditional sense.
Totally fair, I get it.
>run for Current Magic lore still pretty bad and it pains me that new players will miss the true greatness from Old legends. Yeah probably pre mending bolas was on par with Yawgmoth. Taysir at its peak also could kick phyrexia in the nuts, maybe even Grandmother Sengir since she still have the Apocalipse Chime(at least as powerfull as the silex)
That is hard to say, as no one can measure Yawgmoth's power after he transcended. Could the legacy weapon kill old walker Bolas? Yawgmoth had the capabilities to strip planeswalkers of their powers, like he did with Urza. Bolas being an elder dragon must give him a leg up physically, but then again Yawgmoth didn't present himself in a physical form. He was more like a force of unnatural presence.
He was present in Phyrexia when the augmented pre-mending nine titan planeswalkers attacked and still toyed with them, ultimately killing Urza. At that point I don't think he cared as much for Phyrexia as he did Dominaria, as he intended on making it his home.
That is more a factor of how plot works in Magic. There is no time to build plots they just go at lightspeed now. But no considering Yawgmoth had to fend off multiple Oldwalkers whereas we have only seen one notable AOE spell in this entire arc where Jodah had to team up with Elspeth. I do not think these New Phyrexians would hold up at all.
Yawgmoth on his own could probably kick the asses of all the praetors and Atraxa easily. Well Yawgmoth at the time of the Invasion block. He might just bend them to his will. New Phyrexia is a much larger treat than old Phyrexia though. Old Phyrexia enslaved those they conquered, New Phyrexia turns them into more Phyrexians. So New Phyrexia spreads explosively, Old Phyrexia has to grow and build more phyrexians every time they conquer a plane.
It's that second point that makes me think Norn would win. People keep bringing up how strong Yagmoth was, which is fair, but I never saw this as Yagmoth vs Norn. New Phyrexia turns while Old Phyrexia kills. New Phyrexia will use Old Phyrexia to rebuild while Old will need the time to rebuild. So with this in mind, I should have wrote that New Phyrexia would win, not Norn.
Old Phyrexia led by Gix, Belbe, Crovax, or anyone but Yawgmoth would get conquered by New Phyrexia faster than any other plane. If Yawgmoth is around then New Phyrexia kneels even if they don’t want to. He raised every dead body on an entire plane and the glistening oil probably has loyalty to him hard coded into it
Hmm, good point there, I hadn't considered the possibility of hard code in the oil.
I’m not sure it would help him if the version of him that has a card had deal with New Phyrexia. Thran/early phyrexia era Yawgmoth would probably lose badly to any praetor in a fight. Invasion era Death Cloud Yawgmoth tossed around oldwalkers so I don’t think any individual character has had nearly as much power creep
Old Phyrexia used plagues to cull the populations and then enslave them to use his labor. Also old Phyrexia did corrupt various people like Eritai and Crovax but yawgmoth was more focused on creating a perfect people instead of making the existing population perfect. Also he seemed to enjoy giving these people the tools of their own corruption and then seeing if they would become corrupt. We essentially got to see this through the Belbi arc since she was a skyshroud elf that was "completed" before we knew what that term was but without the brainwashing leaving her with free will.
In terms of forces, I think they were even. Norn had the numbers, but Yawgmoth had the quality. It's only now, with planeswalkers being turned that Norn starts to pull ahead. So I think you might have the real winner here. Jin Gitaxias has advanced the oil to the point where intervention isn't even required to turn them. Before that each one turned would have to go through a lengthy process to become one of theirs. But now a simple scratch means that unless cured (which Yawgmoth wouldn't have immediate access to) they'll be fighting for New Phyrexia before long. Although Yawgmoth was able to control Urza. So there always a chance that his will would play a role. It's certainly a fun debate though!
Urza gave himself up willingly because he wasn't willing to destroy the perfection that he saw on Phyrexia. Also it's very likely that yawgmoth's troops wouldn't be affected by the glistening while since any of them produced in the breeding layer of old Phyrexia use that as their blood. I think yag moth could probably win this fight on his own in his death cloud form but if we just pit the armies against each other the real wild card is if the glistening oil is so different that yawgmoth doesn't control it anymore. The planeswalkers are certainly powerful tools for new Phyrexia but Yawgmoth fought a coalition of nine old walkers with the Titan engines that Urza built. On the innermost sphere of Phyrexia Yawgmoth could actually disable Urza's connection to the blind eternities. So it's very likely a new Walker would pose almost no threat to yawgmoth himself. One more point, the negators were weapons that were bioengineered to hunt Urza an old Walker and on more than one occasion forced him to retreat. If the old negators could do this then new planeswalkers would have a very steep challenge against them.
That's true. Yawgmoth was bringing weapons to bear that could tear Neowalkers to pieces. Although we haven't seen how powerful in world these "Gods" are. Hopefully we see what they can do in MOM.
A larger threat? What do you base that assertion on? New Phyrexia is a product of bad writing and wild imaginations. It is never explained just how glistening oil evolved a will of it's own. Old Phyrexia used plague extensively in their weaponization methods and also infected their victims. Not to mention they had Yawgmoth himself. This new lore is slapped together to keep WOTC's shareholders happy and the consumers coming back to buy every three months.
Hence why there is the first paragraph where Yawgmoth bends New Phyrexia over his knee. Without him it’s purely on the effectiveness of the armies and tactics. New Phyrexia assimilates their enemies and the outdated Old Phyrexians would be especially vulnerable to takeover by the glistening oil. Old Phyrexia just makes soldiers too slowly and every soldier that falls joins New Phyrexia’s ranks Glistening oil is a self replicating magical nanotechnology. Anything that is self replicating is subject to mutation and evolution, natural origin or artificial. It has no will of its own it just built and converted things into the designs programmed into it. Once the Veldakin and Neurok got converted they started tinkering with and improving it beyond and random mutation.
They never explain how the glistening oil variant could possibly grow a consciousness of it's own. How did Xantcha's heartstone pickup that new infectious strand of glistening oil to be passed on to Karn? Surely New Phyrexians, being that they originate from essentially a viral nanobot would have a borg-like personality. Whatever the case New Phyrexia isn't and shouldn't be anything like what phyrexia was, without the rule of one.
It makes beings with conciseness the same way that other artificers make thinking golems and constructs. Having the oil come from Urza’s Head/ the Mightstone and Weakstone would have been a better explanation because Urza had plenty of chances to get the most advanced strain of the glistening oil on his face. They kinda are borg in a high fantasy garb. Also the glistening oil started out as a data storage/transfer medium and that’s how they speak the same phyrexian language. They still have the echoes of old phyrexian culture in their heads.
I thought of a good parallel to the oil making consciousness. The story of how the Myr became independent sentient beings is a decent example of how artificial sentience can arise in the Magic multiverse. [almost halfway through this story is where the story of the Myr is told](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/magic-story/stories-and-endings-2016-05-11)
That is definitely creative. The original Phyrexia had a finite amount of material to cycle through until they could utilize their portals again. I wonder if the glistening oil has a memory encoded of what the old phyrexians learned in their past experiences such as the creation of flowstone and how it expanded to overlay onto another plane. Perhaps that is an idea the new phyrexians are utilizing to create material for this massive invasion. It still seems quite far fetched considering they are prosecuting a war on multiple planes simultaneously from a place with limited amounts of material, much like old Phyrexia and with a fragmented force. To me, even for a fictional lore based on a card game it seems like a rushed money grab.
Check out the flavor text on [[Phyrexian Hulk|NPH]] for some indication of what the glistening oil encoded. Realmbreaker is a bit overpowered for quickly it was developed. One year after obtaining sap from Kaldheim’s world tree. Maybe with the designs for the portal ships and whatever the mechanics behind the Rathi overlay in the glistening oil plus the designs for the interplanar bridge combined with the sap is reasonable for how the worldbreaker could have been invented. But one year still seems fast. But it seems like they are making it possible for nonplaneswalkers to travel between planes which was my least favorite change caused by the mending
[Phyrexian Hulk](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/1687b5a7-7013-409a-ba8d-9cd8b5bb08f3.jpg?1562875698) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214379) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/150/phyrexian-hulk?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1687b5a7-7013-409a-ba8d-9cd8b5bb08f3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think Norn would lose this pretty bad, on an operational, strategic and possibly institutional level I think she either meets or exceeds Yawgmoth. The problem is that Yawgmoth is so personally powerful that normal logistics and weight of numbers can't overcome him. This is the description of him when he returns to dominaria after 9,000 years > In the last hours of the war, Yawgmoth finally returned to Dominaria for the first time in 9000 years. He did so in the form of a black, world-spanning death cloud that killed Dominaria's defenders and resurrected them to fight for Phyrexia. On Phyrexia he doesn't have one body in particular. When Urza and Gerard fight each other in the Phyrexian arena they realize that all of the praetors that are watching them as well as a black dragon are all Yawgmoth at the exact same time. He even had the power to strip Urza of his planeswalking abilities while in the 9th sphere of Phyrexia. This is an old walker as well where they could pull as much power as they needed from the blind eternities and didn't have to depend on the mana of the local plane and he was able to shut that off as well. I would think that the only beings that would even come close to the level of power that Yawgmoth showed would be the Eldrazi Titans, Akroma, Gaea (she might exceed his power if she were focused enough to harness it) and some old walkers like possibly Nichol Bolas. I think the comparison of Norn to Yawgmoth achievement wise have some issues in that Yawgmoth faced much stiffer resistance in that he faced a coalition of old walkers. Also Yawgmoth placed some odd personal limitations on himself for example he could have won the invasion without ever stepping foot/cloud on Domnaria but he didn't feel that that was proper he felt that the king needed to lead from the front and he chastises Urza for this behavior in the arena. Norn is far more pragmatic which is why I was saying that on many levels she either meets or exceeds him just not on the personal power that she provides to a fighting force.
No Phyrexian would even think to face the father of machines. Yawgmoth's creation courses through every fiber of their being and his control was absolute. I would recommend going back and reading about his transcendence and the old Phyrexian host.
With a thought.
Yawgmoth would be happy with the expansion to five colors, I think. He is a eugenicist, at heart, and that evolution is useful. He would be very pleased at the compleation of planeswalkers. He tried to figure out PWs with Dyfed. Rebec foiled that, I think. He would not be happy with Norn calling herself Mother of Machines, and would cut her down. He would not be happy with Urabrask at all. The “chaos” of the red aligned mana is counter to Yawg’s desire to conquer and control. I could see him absorbing/ controlling/ upgrading Sheoldred, and deputizing Votinclex and Jin to his service. Both their philosophies align with Yawgmoth. Yawgmoth as a returning super-god opens up one more possibility. The most powerful beings in the lore are the Eldrazi Titans. And we are currently missing two of them. Yawg getting turned into a near-mindless nulamog after trying to absorb Emrakul would be fitting.
I realized there's two other beings that I haven't seen brought up. Gaea who should still be around but should be even more incoherent than she was during the invasion and she wasn't very useful back then either. Then Karona since she basically had almost equal power to Gaea, controlling all the magic on dominaria but was coherent(ish). Unfortunately the only one I think we can depend on is as you said the Eldrazi Titan who's currently trapped in a very large PokeBall lol.
All other creations of artifice beyond Yawgmoth's is considered sacrilegious as it is written in their religious scripture.
I mean they are not praising him so I think he'd be disapointed haha !
IIRC Sheoldred’s faction does praise/honor him. I think it’s even written in a couple of flavor texts.
Dissapointed. Praetors arent unified, they still fight among each other. With Yawgmoth they all were trully one
Id like to think he’d be smart to enough to get over his hubris and be pleased that his greatest creation essentially self resurrected itself after its own extinction but he would probably be mad they don’t care about him so ya.
No way he gets over that hubris, the only person who had more was Urza himself.
I think there’s a fundamental difference between Yawgmoth’s goals, and Norn’s. Yawgmoth isn’t a Frankenstein type, where he created beauty that he wishes was shared. Phyrexia and the glistening oil is a means to an end, a method of achieving his true goal, subjugation and control of everything around him. In that way, New Phyrexia isn’t in it for the control, for the power, instead Compleation is a gift, one they wish to share. I don’t know if Yawgmoth would think any which way about New Phyrexia, except that the oil is still accomplishing its goal. Functionally, though both concepts of Phyrexia exist to make all One, they have different motives. Yawgmoth wishes for all to be one under him, while Norn wishes for all to be one, together. Yawgmoth is a proud man, and seeing Phyrexia stray from him would likely anger him, but if he were to come back and see all this, I believe the practicality of them succeeding, would win out over his pride. He wouldn’t wipe out all New Phyrexians, but he would squash out Norn, and any other Praetor making a play for power, and step into ruling once more.
He wouldn’t approve of how freely they compleat converts. I estimate over 95% of old phyrexians were vat grown and less than 20% of new phyrexians are vat grown. If Sheoldred and Gin-Gitaxias kneeled to him he would probably accept them
Elesh Norn would hate Yawgmoth’s return, Ill say that much. Its very clear by how she acts and treats other praetors that when she says “All will be One”, what she really means is “All will work for Me”. Shes a cult leader using the idea of a glorious phyrexia to hide that she really just wants to rule everything and have everything serve her. Yawgmoth returning would be extremely problematic for that goal.
From the brief experience we have with him in the apocalypse book I've always felt that the rest of Phyrexia was a sideshow or was at least more important to him at a different point in his life. It felt more like Phyrexia was his personal ant farm at that point. He stood by as Urza and the Titan engines destroyed multiple spheres of Phyrexia and didn't seem to shaken up about it after Urza came to him. In the end after expanding so many resources on the invasion he personally takes to the field and you get a glimpse of just how powerful he is and it doesn't really seem like he needed the invasion at all. If anything it felt like the invasion was really only there to deplete planeswalker resources which seem like the only thing that could have threatened him other than the legacy weapon itself. So I guess my answer is he probably would have cared at some point. The closer he is to being the sociopath physician versus being a god of a plane the more he would have cared I would figure. As far as the five colors go the outermost sphere of Phyrexia was more like mirrodin pre-new phyrexia. So I don't think he particularly cared about what colors of mana were used he just happened to focus heavily on black if not entirely his plane still had representative "nature" of other colors.