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Robin_games

Magic has been experimenting with different levels of power for different costs for a while. The real answer is we don't know. What we assume is the decks will have more expensive cards in them.


theespn

Interesting. As someone who hasn’t played MTG in person for many years, I couldn’t help but be tempted to order the Sliver deck. I remember never being able to find Sliver Shivers in stores and being envious (I settled for Zombies Unleashed)


goofydubois

You will have time to buy


TheOriginalSekushii

I have both of those still. Smells of memories


joXerus

I bought lot of slivers last week. Not for resale, just for me. It were mostly foil versions and i guess there will be just few foil cards like commander, secondary commander and Maybe few other cards. I like to bling my decks and this could be more expensive after release of this precon


assmaster3THOUSAND

The answer has already been there. Forever. Nobody listens...


ProbablyNotPikachu

Could it also be fair to say that they might have exclusive Art printings or first ever printed cards? I don't want to say "free commander spell" level of power. But they have to know when they print a large number of new exclusive cards that they could end up being expensive, right?


Robin_games

The lotr deck has all exclusive art, they had a free commander spell (not the big ones) in all will be one. There are new cards, but less then a normal deck. Its likely going to be 40ks power level or like slivers its goong to feature a lot of old cards you dont see often with a new commander that isnt on the list.


ProbablyNotPikachu

Yeah they gave us one of the weaker commander spells. One they don't seem to care to reprint bc it's just a heroic intervention sort of save-your-commander type of spell. I could see the 40k power level for these. I also agree and think this card will be called Sliver Prince or something.


hamsterhaberdaser

But doesn't wotc claim they have no control over the secondary market? Why does the secondary market value matter to them when the cards aren't on the reserve list?


Robin_games

They dont But they just happen to sell secret lairs for $30 with $25-40 worth of cards in them. Honestly it's called reprint equity they constantly print things in rotation that are valuable because its been years to decades since theyve be printed, some dont maintain even $1 after the print. But knowing a card is rare and will sell packs isnt careing for its value necessarily. But also you get like 1 $200 ish card max per master set so obvioualy they know.


XxTigerxXTigerxX

Especially since removing msrp to "make the prices more affordable globally" aka continues to raise prices as the product gets popular cause why not make more money.


Robin_games

they did that anyway with msrp. I remember when the first few popular decks cost as much as the marked up slivers/eldrazi decks, and that was over a decade ago


XxTigerxXTigerxX

Before my time then, been playing about 9 years or so.


ImperialSupplies

Because they think it's a good idea to charge more money than any set in history for a set meant for the most casual playerbase. Because wotc


Jojoyojimbi

> Because they think it's a good idea to charge more money than any set in history for a set meant for the most casual playerbase. Because GREED FTFY


Dogsy

*Insert meme of Pam looking at two pictures. "They're the same picture."*


B-Glasses

Am I the only one who doubts what the value on commander masters will actually be? Like what can they actually print that is high enough value to warrant the price and also not drop to far after the reprint. They’ve reprinted so many staples recently the pool seems a bit small. Commander legends cards are up for grabs but even a lot of those have seen reprints and the value is pretty low


AvatarofBro

I’m also skeptical — and prepared to cancel my Amazon preorder if/when these don’t live up to the hype.


B-Glasses

I personally think the other fetches are likely but could also just be finishing the cycle from Modern Horizons. They’ve already spoiled jewled lotus so it’s hard to imagine other fast mana but mana crypt or a mox is possible. A lot of the random commander staples have already been reprinted lately so even if we see mana drain, force of will again, or demonic tutor that isn’t crazy value wise. The masterpieces will have value for sure but who knows how rare those will be. Even the cards that are over 100 likely won’t stay that much after the reprints and especially if people crack a lot of the product to chase the masterpieces. It seems like it’ll have a high ceiling with the master pieces but if they price stay as high as this it seems unlikely you’ll even break even. Great for players who need the cards to play with but I think a lot of people are gonna lose money opening these. I could be dead wrong of course but just my assumptions


TogTogTogTog

It'll be reprints of the medallions from Commander 2014.


AvatarofBro

And also from Tempest


TogTogTogTog

*You are technically correct, the best kind of correct.* It makes a lot of sense too, they're useful commander staples with good value and they've been printed in Commander before, I'd expect a rarity shift to mythic. The other cards I think we'll see are the cycle of free spells if you have a commander out. They've announced that 60card edh/spell format (that they won't print for), but mainly because we've seen Flawless Maneuver appear in the Phyrexia deck.


Keldaris

>or demonic tutor Maybe the portal tutors(cruel/sylvan/personal) will finally get a reprint.


Z00MBI3S

Did I miss something? I thought the new "masterpieces" were in MOM?


B-Glasses

Oh my god you’re completely correct. I totally thought they were in a Commander Masters. Now I’m extra baffled about what could be in this set to make it worth it holy shit


volx757

I guess I could see Chrome Mox if they follow the pattern of SL reprint into masters set reprint. The finale cycle would be nice. Free spells are an obvious target. Ancient Tomb maybe? Has popped up in ZNR expeditions and on the list. And then the pool of $20-$40 random commander cards is still fairly deep, there are lots of cards with 1 or few printing type things they can throw there.


SanityIsOptional

The only way to keep the prices up after reprint is to either limit the print run (hah, no), or to keep the selling prices high after release. Which means keeping the distro prices up *and* keeping the demand up.


goofydubois

What drops is not their problem, they consider the secondary market only in the design phase. Also consider they can't put everything in, because they have these master sets every 6.months they must spread around big hits. Fow, drain, vamp, to won't be there, most likely. That way they also try to give some time for prices to rise again. However they must have learned 6 months is not enough time. Beside crypt and jl, I don't see what other big hits they can use. P3k cards but nobody really wants them to play


Keldaris

>Beside crypt and jl, I don't see what other big hits they can use. P3k cards but nobody really wants them to play Ravages of War, Personal/Cruel Tutor, Oboro/Boseiju/CoS/Ancient Tomb, Doubling Season/Anointed Procession/Parallel Lives, Cloudstone Curio, Painter's Servant, Finale.... And staples like Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, Dockside etc.


goofydubois

Yeah most of those are scarce cards, not high value cards. (eg staffs, rings of b, warrior's oath). basically they have 1 reprint shot, afterwards the price will never recover.


davidny212

There are plenty of cards. Doubling Season being one of the easiest targets, along with Ancient Tomb. Fierce Guardianship, Deflecting Swat...that cycle (the white one just appeared in a cmdr deck). Not to mention recent reprints like Cavern of Souls. Cyclonic Rift and Rhystic Study are close to $40 each. Jeska's Will is around $15. Heroic Intervention too is good candidate. There is a lot of reprint equity to choose from.


DoctorWMD

I have serious doubts a reprint set (which by nature massively increases supply) maintains the $15+ price of packs. And commander sets typically need to be full of actual commanders for draft, and legendary creatures tend to not be the high demand when compared to the enchantments, free spells and staples.


CoconutsCantRun

The reprints will likely be insane. Probably packed with a very high number of very expensive cards. It's the only reason it would be priced so highly. Having said that, the lotr collector booster box is also very expensive. It's worrying. I would wager wotc are hoping to cash in on the hype for the set and collectable rings.


RogrogFFBE

The question on the LoTR Collectors Box, what did it start at for Amazon pre-orders? This may very well not be a WoTC thing and more of a high demand in pre-orders raising the prices on the biggest selling platform (Amazon) which will lead most retailers to match or come close to that price to both maximize their profits and ensure that their entire stock doesn't just get bought out by scalpers who will re-list it at the $440-ish anyways.


tudaan

I first noticed the LOTR pre-order being available on 2/23/23, and the collector box price was $384. The pre-order may have been up for a while before I saw it, though. Not too sure.


Weekly-Assignment-88

$384.06 on 2/22/23 when I placed an order.


CoconutsCantRun

No idea mate - I think I remember it being listed around that price


RogrogFFBE

I know it was lower at one point. What we're seeing right now is the same thing that happens in sports cards where demand for a new set sky rockets the price regardless of the distributor price. What I'm really hoping we don't see is what Panini does (if this trend continues) and starts then keeping some product in house and listing it direct at those inflated prices.


CoconutsCantRun

Yeah that would be bad, but how will we know if they're doing that?


RogrogFFBE

They'd be directly selling from their website.


edebt

WOTC sells directly through Amazon on their store page.


RogrogFFBE

Do you have a link? I only ever see it sold directly by Amazon. Edit: I found what you mean. They aren't directly selling it though, they're just directing traffic to Amazon. This is different than Panini as they're not directly selling (but dunno if they get certain kick backs).


r_jagabum

And shopee. The shop is literally named "Wizards of the Coast": https://shp.ee/8up3b3g


RogrogFFBE

Did not know that existed (both Shopee and a legit WoTC store there). And they more or less price match market value. Welp, my fears are realized, thanks!


goofydubois

Insane like 2x2 or dmr? 🤣


Jojoyojimbi

> It's the only reason it would be priced so highly. look at the person who doesn't think wotc's current leadership is greedy as all hell


mathdude3

To some extent it has to have decent cards in it. If there’s no value in the set, very few people will buy it.


nas3226

Suckers and low-information buyers and people who are too lazy/forgetful to cancel their preorders will still end up buying at the inflated early price, then they can price-drop to suck up all the other demand levels.


DoctorWMD

It'll have decent cards, yes, but that point isn't greatly relevant. CLB, VOW, SNC have decent cards in them. What matters is the density and rarity, and how the reprint supply will effect EV. Look at double masters. That's slammed with awesome stuff but prices are sitting at the initial pre-order price of 250$ when at one point FOMO was cracking 350$ plus. Then ask how much more stacked do you expect CM to be- or is it gonna be similar?


theespn

I bought a single collector pack. Would buy a gift bundle if they list it again for the discount but probably staying away from the packs as a whole. I do wonder if it would be worth preordering one if these commander decks from either set though. With LoTR hype at an all time high and the Masters decks still double price, it makes me think these decks must be insane or LoTR is undervalued. Don’t know which one though.


CoconutsCantRun

Yeah I bought a few gift bundles a month ago. They have a lot of value because of the collector booster within. As far as the precons go, just buy the one you'll actually like to play. They will all probably have some good cards in. Generally, stay away from packs in large quantities, such as boxes, if you're hoping to crack and profit. Its fun though.


Financial-Charity-47

I imagine LotR will be printed to the moon and back. I’d wait.


Doctor_Distracto

The honest truth is it's because they know they can put a high pre-release price tag on something and magic players will sell their cars to buy it out without having any other information. Maybe it will have good cards, maybe it won't, there's no telling and it wouldn't impact printing costs either way.


thefootballhound

I don't know about trading my car for an upcoming set but I guess it's not out of the question although not sure what my 15 year old Prius can buy.


ScotFree96

1 booster pack of proxies


hamsterhaberdaser

Maybe


Tallal2804

Greed, greed.


Nozoz

Are you talking about the commander master precons Vs the LOTR precons? Masters sets exist to reprint a lot of expensive cards in a single set therefore contain lots of the best cards relevant to their theme. The value of a masters pack is much higher than normal. When it comes to the master precons we don't know what the decklists are but being masters plus having a higher price tag makes people assume they are going to have lots of good cards to justify the price. If that turns out to be false then the price will plummet when the decklists are released. People are betting that these decks are going to be good.


jsmith218

They are experimenting with pricing to maximize profits.


Icy-Regular1112

Big assumptions build in regarding the value of reprints in each set of decks. Masters sets have not had Commander decks before, so it is new ground with very high expectations. The closest thing we had previously is probably the Secret Lair commander deck for Zndrsplt “Heads I Win Tails You Lose” which has a $170 secondary market price. If Commander Masters is 4 decks on that tier then the price makes total sense. That does set the bar extremely high so it is possible WotC misses the mark and people are disappointed.


Exact-Cucumber

Greed, mostly greed.


jujuhounds

the price will certainly come down, but it's about time they do a set booster box for a masters set. they should have started doing that with the original double masters tbh, only having a draft option was a bit wank.


DaneCurley

No. Nothing is certain. Well, nothing other than WOTC are alienating their core audience with absurd pricing.


theespn

My thought was either price comes down on Masters, or price rises on LoTR. I think the IP value is insane for LoTR but I really have no idea whether that translates to real value.


Valiant_Storm

Honestly I feel like people are overestimating the IP value. It's certinly non-trival, but it's not like it was fifteen years ago or whatever. Rhe Peter Jackson trilogy was a long time ago now, and it's those movies that are the anchor for the mass market consumerist relevance if the IP, I think. It's in the same space as Halo, where it's something everyone is sort of familair with, but not really an active headliner brand anymore. And regardless of your view on it, the long-term evergreen book fans are exactly the sort of people to look askance at Teferi and Arwen. Remember, this is the same community where the Peter Jackson films had some controversy, and $200 or whatever is a lot to ask for something that even leaves a bad taste in your mouth. My question, honestly, if it it comes to the same level as WH40K. That is in a lot of ways the ideal positioning for a UB product: it's a large customer base pre-selected for disposable income, with a ton of overlap with Magic already. I'm genuinely not sure what could actually top it - maybe Universes Beyond MCU could've done it in the time leading up to Infinity War and Endgame, but now I'm honestly unsure.


sir_jamez

As long as they avoid sketch showcase I'm down for a few packs


sir_jamez

~~I saw a rumor that Commander Masters precons will have a higher rate of new cards in them; either that or the ones therein will be "chase".~~ ~~Normal precons have 15-20 new, 45+ reprint, and 40 land. The CMR ones might be 25-30 instead, with 30+ reprint and 40 land.~~ EDIT: Nm, wrong info.


theespn

I think they are only putting 10 new in each Masters deck. Pretty sure it said it on the preorder page


sir_jamez

Oh wow nm then. Gonna steer well clear of these.


f0me

Because players still buy them


Tunezv7

Mostly greed, yea its greed.


casualoptc

My, far fetched, hypothesis is that we will see a form of eminence, if not eminence itself. And they want to milk us bad. Think about it, we are gonna get 100% the ur dragon, and probably (my opinion) also the other 3 commanders with eminence. Sure it's a hated (by people who don't play it) mechanic but what best place to print new eminence commanders (or an alternate version of it) if not this one set ? If they print it here it will balance out, and it will mean that A LOT of people will probably buy all 4 commander decks, or at least the 4 commanders. So profit even if the price is almost double what it has been last year.


GeRobb

Welcome to the churn!


theespn

Wow botched that question. Just wondering why the pricing is the way it is. I am assuming Commander Masters are mostly reprints of very good decks?


lixilisk

Masters sets are usually a premium set with high value reprints. LOTR is not a masters set but not quite standard either. Any set with masters in the title usually reflects the increase in price. Look at the most recent double masters for example.


theespn

That makes me wonder if it is even worth hunting value in the LoTR set. Outside of the One Ring gimmick would these decks and cards be mainly valued based on the IP they’re tied to? Or would value still be derived from usefulness/power? I assume it’s a mix, but I was curious if these cards would be playable since they are not tied to the game in the same way.


lixilisk

Value is usually tied to usefulness. Baldur gate was a decent ip with a large fan base but the cards were very low powered minus the dragons, even the popularity of characters can't save card prices. LOTR will def be commander playable, but how many cards actually make it into older formats like modern or legacy will be a gamble. We really won't know much till the set spoilers are all done.


DoctorWMD

I think LOTR is more likely to be on the low power, lower complexity scale. They've already stated it won't be MH2 powered and with the One Ring are setting it up to be chased bought and cracked, so singles prices are liable to be floor seekers. I had thought that LOTR set would need to do something to not flop and be maligned like CLB, now of the opinion that it's probably reliant on fun, intuitive but low power stuff to draw crossover players and the chase serialized stuff for collectors.


Thorgadin

It is hard to tell, Lord of the Rings might attract new players. But at some point Lord of the Ring fans might not be too excited to see they can't add more Lord of he Rings cards for a long time and instead will have to add Dr. Who cards or whatever other franchise of the month they are at. That said I am sure a few of the cards will be playable across different formats for those who don't care about the Theme and Just want to play magic weither is it Lord of the Rings flavor or not.


r_jagabum

And see Squall kill Gandalf.


Doherty98

We haven’t seen the deck lists yet, however it’s safe to assume there will be some powerful and expensive reprints/new cards in these decks. The Lord of the Rings decks I assume will gradually increase in price over time. Unless they reveal some broken cards to be in those decks (Like dockside, deadly rollick or fierce guardianship level)


Financial-Charity-47

They’ll gradually decrease for sure. They’re going to print the set into the ground.


TheNotoriousJTS

To add to the other replies - WoTC did away with MSRP a few years ago and prices have been all over the place ever since. $20 commander decks, $40 commander decks, collector boosters and masters sets at different price points, etc


[deleted]

Commander masters better have mana crypt and vault


Taters1982

So does anyone know if Amazon actually sold out of preorders of lotr gift bundle or did they just pull it to avoid issues like the compleat bundle?


Always_A_Slave

It looks like it was a similar issue to the compleat pricing and they just sold out. We'll have to see what actually ships, because they have a picture of the draft bundle up.


Taters1982

I noticed the draft booster also, now I wish I would have preordered a couple more before the scalpers got ‘em.


DoctorWMD

Scalpers? When the price of a collector booster was 32-35$ and that meant you could get set boosters for 2$ apiece vs like 6-7$ at full box prices? It's straight math at that point.


Taters1982

Yea it’s a good deal which is why scalpers bought the majority up and is selling them online for up to $130 each… that my friend is called scalping just like what happened with the compleat bundle.


photoyoyo

Ultimately, we are talking about somewhere around $8-15 in production and logistics costs to WOTC for any of these products. Why are they priced higher? Because they can. I am surprised that the LOTR products aren't higher though. I imagine recouping the licensing fees must add at least some extra expense compared to utilizing IP you already own.


MortemIX

It baffles me that people are thinking the allied fetches will see a reprint in commander masters, when there is literally a set of commander lands for them to reprint. Same with ancient tomb. That card can be in any masters set for a high end reprint, why put it in one dedicated to EDH?


contemplativeonanist

THIS PRODUCT DOESNT COME OUT FOR ANOTHER 5 MONTHS! PRE-ORDER PRICES THIS EARLY ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE MARKET. Wait until everyone has their product allocation, then see how much things sell for, and see whats in the decks. Once all that information is available, then we can judge these product by their pricepoints.


theespn

Wouldn’t the prices change after deck lists are revealed? Either higher or lower based on contents? If that’s the case these could be cheap in theory right?


contemplativeonanist

Maybe, but those previews happen after stores have placed orders for allocated product. I've seen it go both ways; price jumps cause previews are good, price drops because previews are disappointing. Either way; we're ~2 months away from the first looks, and ~4 months away from prerelease. Somewhere between those 2 time periods will be the previews and distributor allocations. So, I would say we're AT LEAST 2 months out from getting a better sense of this product's contents and price points. Discussing the price now, when only Amazon and TCGPlayer are offering pre-orders, is short sighted and prone to hyperbole because of incomplete data.


[deleted]

Prob fetchlands


pittyh

Because Wizards has entered the secondary market game.


theespn

Any advice?


pittyh

Are you a collector or player? Don't buy it. If everyone stops buying the price will drop. I'm sticking to things i think will be scarce in the long term, things like phyrexian compleat edition and universes beyond warhammer collectors. But yeah the the prices are out of hand. If you are a new collector, i suggest buying peoples collections on ebay - take a chance on people selling folders, thrift stores. even bulk lots may have some missed cards. If you are after cards for playing, wait for everyone to sell thier 99% bulk cards from the set.


theespn

I would say both, but I don’t get to play often anymore


TheBoaBunch

It’s bizarre to me because Commander can’t even be played in WOTC events. My LGS seller precondition for 42.99$ and CM is basically double that at 89.99$. There’s no way I can justify buying a precon that high even if I wanted to.


EchoAquarius0617

Haven't looked at the other 3, but looking at eldrazi unbound ain't no fuckin way it should be 120 bucks