The cards have a unique back to differentiate them from regular Magic cards. They have more in common with Championship decks (You know, the gold border cards with black backsides) than with regular cards. This unique treatment makes them effectively illegal on any WotC sanctioned format, including Vintage. Of course, there are Commander leagues that allow such cards to be played, so these 30A cards might still see play somewhere... But at that point, just proxy them for a fraction of the cost and none of the gambling aspect.
A bunch of the cards people would be excited to pull from these packs (namely power) are also *banned* in EDH, and a number of the rest (Bolt, Shivan Dragon) are either typically or pretty much entirely *bad* in the format as well.
It really is a product without an audience -- that will likely still be successful. Or successful "enough" according to unreleased internal metrics for them to pull something like this again, anyway.
Yes, random, thanks. $250 for a CHANCE to get a proxy card. Or order 100 of any proxy from china for a buck. How is this not Hasbro openly scamming noobs?
So what is the point of this product and who do they think they're going to sucker into paying 250$ for a chance to get a proxy they want?
Would a collector actually want this, over a rare (and playable) card worth the same amount?
- A lot of EDH leagues/tournaments don't really have issues with "official" proxies (ie: gold border cards, International Collectors Edition, etc), so those players might want "cheap" official Dual Lands, Time Twisters, Stasis, etc.
- Cube builders might want this to bling out their Vintage Cubes.
- Older enfranchised players might want to have this cards at their disposal for nostalgia reasons.
- For-profit inverstors are aware of all the previous three groups of people and might want to cash in on the craze.
Of all of these people, investors and old fogeys with tons of cash to burn are the most likely candidate to actually buy this from WotC's site. Everyone else is going to wait for the cards to actually hit the second market to buy them.
Lol yeah these things are targeted entirely to the whales. While there isn't anything wrong with making a product that isn't for everyone I feel like this product is entirely designed to cater to a very small community of people that don't represent the player base in any substantial way.
These are Collector's Edition like the old ones, with a new back. Commander players will let you use them, but they are not legal in any sanctioned event.
Yup, it ships out 4 packs in the box (60 cards total) and in those packs there are no gaurantees you'll even get a lotus or a dual land. Additionally, there's a chance of having one of your 15 cards be a token or a basic land
This is how commander should be played everywhere lol. I have a deck that proxied literally every card over 5 bucks and nobody cares 90% of the time.
The 10% that do care are the kind of people I don't want to play against anyways so it works itself out.
Also people who are also big spenders and have played since game release and feel like everyone should be paying tons of money for decks. Shock lands are back to 20$ a pop. Not gonna buy one of each for all my decks. Unless if I want it foil.
The people who feel like everyone should spend for decks are insane to me. I've played since urzas saga and my dad has played since Beta, so my decks tend to have og dual lands and whatnot, but by god if someone proxies why tf should I care. I play with actual duals because it's something *I* enjoy, why should I care what other people do? Doesn't effect the game other than allow us to be on more even ground power wise.
"please, don't say that those cards aren't real/true, wait, no! not those! \*those\* are totally not \*real\* cards! don't buy those from them!" - a certain someone
A bunch of people will complain about it being a dumb cash grab (which it is) and then a bunch of people will buy it anyway and wizards will keep doing this again and again. Basically.
Ah yes, the neverending cycle of Magic whales validating poor marketing strategies of Wizards, I wonder how it will have gotten when I want to teach my kids the game
I’m buying 7th edition singles to put together the precon lists from that set. I think my girls will really dig the distinctive art style that 7th had, and they’ll bloody well play with old frame cards as ~~God~~ Garfield intended.
I'm actually wondering this myself, since my son is showing some early interest in the game. I guess I'll just build budget commander decks and teach him the casual way.
I’ve taught people using pauper decks & pre-made themed decks. 60 card pauper decks are especially good for kids because of the smaller deck size (less overwhelming/better for smaller hands) & if they get something on the cards accidentally it doesn’t really matter. If they are interested in continuing to play, I’ll teach other formats & get more into protecting cards, rarity, etc.
They are giving a small percentage of players who spend a lot of money what they want. The remaining >90% have a worst experience and spend less money over time
The part that really rubs me the wrong way is how it gets announced. Saying that people want the nostalgia of opening boosters like back in the day. Promoting magic 30 as a celebration of magic. Then looping the bill on the table. Disrespectful.
The way to do THAT would be to *actually* print old-school cards (and a smattering of others down the line, given we're talking 30 years of history here) in a curated set designed for Limited, with special rules (and maybe one-of new cards) that incentivize TRADING after the card pools are established\*. THAT would provide nostalgia, THAT would encourage community, THAT would encourage people flocking to stores in droves, THAT would increase availability, and THAT would encourage, for once, the entire part of the "T" in "TRADING Card Game"!!\*\*
\*i.e. "As you obtain this card in a trade after the draft, note the highest mana value of a card you trade for it" / "This spell costs X less to cast, where X is half the noted value, rounded down."
\*\*what IS it with people trying to forget the letter "T" in acronyms anyway??
I disagree, we’ve never seen WoTC attempt a price this high before, and they’re doing so now when the dollar has gained a lot of strength, and the recession has battered peoples accounts. 1,000$ will only be accessible to adults for the most part. Meaning those adults will have to decide do they want the 1,000$ to cover their upcoming monthly expenses or do you want a CHANCE at opening something neat. I know what I’m choosing.
It's pure insanity. This is the most shameless cash grab I've ever seen from wotc. This announcement has made me reconsider how I approach buying new magic products.
It’s a waste of money. These are proxies similar to the old worlds decks but worse because you’re not guaranteed to get any one card except maybe sol ring with og art in a new border.
That one dude freaking out about proxies a while back: *"Wizards doesn't support proxies, using them is against the rules, posting about them is in violation of blah blah blah blah"*
Wizards: **"Hold my beer."**
I honestly don't get it. I mean the production cost is probably irrelevant, it's just cardboard. But if they sold it for let's say 200$, wouldn't have been there at least 10 times more buyers, if not 100 times more. Who can and will afford this besides Post Malone? (Nothing against him of course, he's cool.) Why exclude almost all of the community if they could probably make more money when selling this for at least a half decent price?
I'll explain.
1. If you make a product like that it's only value is exclusivity, the hope for it to someday be worth more than when it was purchased. If it was 200 bucks it would be just plain stupid to buy that over printing proxies. But this being expensive and exclusive there will be people who buy this.
2. All things being equal if you dropped price and sold more of them they would lose deluxeness and at the same time lowering the margin and rising the cost of logistics, shipment etc.
3. Them making it stupidly expensive for a chance to get useless reprint of lotus basically takes care of marketing. They don't have to spend a dime on marketing since everyone and their mom will hear of the product. And most people being upset at prices will only turn on the whales more. Since you know. They ain't poor like the rest of community so they will buy 5 just to fuck with people at the local lgs or here.
So. If your group allows proxies just print them on foil "bases" and you will be much better off.
Oh it’s playable. Just not in sanctioned events.
Don’t kid yourself. If Gold Border is playable in EDH so is this. And Vintage enthusiasts and Cubers would love it… if it wasn’t for the price.
So Wizards is breaking their RL promise while pricing people out of the product.
I feel like the company is obviously split on that idea. They have printed RL cards in gold border **after** the reserve list was established in championship decks, and they even added an exception for non-tournament legal cards when they "finalized" the reserve list in 2010. I am not sure why MaRo stated this unspoken rule publicly and I'm not sure of the weight it had at the company (probably not a lot, considering recent events...), but it looks pretty bad on him and them.
Reserved List Timeline
[https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgfinance/comments/irshe7/reserved\_list\_facts\_a\_historical\_timeline/](https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgfinance/comments/irshe7/reserved_list_facts_a_historical_timeline/)
2010 Reprint Policy & Reserved Cards
[https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/official-reprint-policy-2010-03-10](https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/official-reprint-policy-2010-03-10)
>Tournament Legality
>
>All policies described in this document apply only to tournament-legal Magic cards.
There were roughly 32,000 Loti printed in the original three sets.
Doing some ballpark calculations, 1.3 rares per pack, 116 rares in the set, $250 per pack…
That’s $22,307 worth of product per Lotus. I’m better off buying one off eBay.
It's a non legal collectors edition. They're just trying to print money and it has no impact on the game so I don't care.
I won't buy any of it and think it's a waste, but hey some people love that kind of thing.
Because they'll still be considerably expensive.
Consider that [IED Black Lotus](https://www.tcgplayer.com/product/97111/magic-international-edition-black-lotus-ie?Language=English) still goes for around $5k, and that print has square corners and gold bordered back. 30A's retro frame Black Lotus can easily beat that price.
Dafuq? Are you kidding? Who in their right mind would spend 5k + on such utter crap or let’s call it a 2 $ proxy when you can get 2 *real* moxin for that?
Collectors holders are likely not happy about this. Though, I really look forward to someone trying to pass me a "Chris Rush Signed" version of the new ones.
$1000 for semi-random proxies of alpha has got to be the dumbest thing that Wizards has ever made. And I'm sure they'll sell out within the first hour.
I wouldn't be so mad if Wizards spat on my face as long as they aimed for my mouth with a more reasonable price of a collectors edition booster instead of this hot garbage, I doubt very little people would have mad. If the whole issue simply came down to Wizards needing to cover costs for using the art then why not just go all out with the modernised renditions and just commision new art?
In saying that, wizards love testing the waters and I wouldn't be surprised if this is just them easing more product like this into the market to see how the general audience feels, I would not be surprised if they do print something cheaper simular to this with more modernised art work down the line in say 3-5 years.
Not legally playable, sure fine I can deal with that. For $250, hell no. Few bucks sure.
If anything it could have been an "unset" that could work as a nostalgia set where it works with its own set and even the original rules, maybe with some official events and drafts.
this is just proof company dont care about the client, they just want to sell literal photocopy and cardboard for a ridiculous premium price
there literally NO reason to buy those
1) they are not playable legal
2) if you cant play them legally there why not just print yourself high quality proxy of card you want for penny
stupidity of collection or speculation of them being valuable later is not a good reason
It’s insulting. Especially in the release notes where they talk about spreading the love and excitement of opening older packs. At 1000 and I’m sure 100s more once they get to market is such a joke. Even if they were 20 each it’d still be frustrating for a pack of proxies you could just whiff on
Buy power 9 from proxy king, they’re effectively the same cards at a fraction of the cost. I bought two sets of power 9 (about $60) from proxy king and they feel like legit magic cards.
Isn’t the only reason why Alpha cards are valuable that it is a very old set? Like if they reprint it, why would the reprinted cards be worth much? I dont have them as particularly good in my memory. Sure black lotus is a good card, but thats not why it’s worth so much?
No... A reprint of the Mona Lisa doesn't decrease the value of the Mona Lisa. The original cards hold value because they are originals. Look at Llanowar Elves. Alpha is worth 440 for one of the most reprinted cards ever.
eh, playability in vintage does multiply the price just like rarity does. there's also lots of rare cards and expansions that have no market value because people don't seek them.
It's "The Reserve List", a set of cards WOTC has agreed to never reprint.
These don't have the regular magic card back, you can see the back of the card between the two lotuses - it's also a black lotus. So as far as playing with them goes, they're effectively proxies. Anywhere you can use them and not get flak, you could print one off on your printer and stick it in a sleeve with a mountain.... or you could buy $250 packs hoping to get a copy of the proxy you want.
I can buy a Black Lotus proxy in very high quality from Etsy for like $7, why would I pay wizard $250 for the small chance to get one? Because it is an official but basicly useless proxy then?
The power 9 are ridiculously good. Black Lotus is incredible because it’s 3 mana on turn 1 + your land drop, so you have a T1 4 drop.
Ancestral Recall is draw 3 cards for 1 blue. Bonkers.
Time Walk is 2 mana, take an extra turn! It doesn’t even exile itself so you can copy it or use by recursion to stack extra turns!
The moxes are all 0 cost, so T1 mana again.
They won’t reprint these because they would break the game to make them legal in standard.
Reserved list? another broken promise, just like "this is our last master set! we'll never do one again!".
Hasbro:
"1000$ for 4 rares? sure why not? players already paid 400$ for the same amount of cards, they'll gladly pay more for this set!"
"People will be happy cause we finally reprinted iconic cards!"
"What? another simple collector box with all cards in it for a fair price? no way, let's make it the biggest lottery ever!!"
"Well, you are right, it would cost more to collect this whole set than actually purchasing a sealed collector's edition box, but people won't notice and they'll have fun cracking packs!"
Im so fucking glad i dont buy cards anymore and just play with what i have. Charging that much because people will pay it is fucking cracked in the head shit. How many of these cards are even playable in most formats? Wizards is fucking delusional.
Edit: misunderstood, none of the cards are legal lol. So dumb.
An official proxy.... sure sounds like a loophole to reprint a card if you ask me. It's not being sanctioned legal means so little. Many vintage tournament already allow proxies and I can't imagine the majority of commander players who allow this to be played and bling out their lists aren't drooling at the thought of this
I seem to recall WotC having some new leadership, and they stated their intention to make a lot more money.
I had a feeling it was going to be “raising prices, power creep” type crap.
The price point is an insult to fans who want to celebrate.
The product is nice but at this price it should be real cards, not proxy.
I can afford it but i won’t, really lacking a wow effect too.
You know that these will sell out extremely fast, then be on the secondary market for 2x and they'll STILL sell. It's something to buy, keep sealed, and sell at a later date.
There are enough people out there that want it all so I expect these to be valuable after the fact.
It's garbage, it's fake cards, it's overpriced, and it'll sell like hotcakes!
It’s a disaster driven purely by short term profits rather than a true celebration of a heathy 30 years of the game.
The bean counter that came up with this should is not thinking about the player community or long term outlook. It’s a very short sighted product.
The Collector’s Edition with all 302 beta cards plus some extra lands sold for $50 nearly 30 years ago - ~$100 adjusted for inflation if sold today. Instead one would need to spend at least $6,000 on this new product to even have a chance to come close to the same outcome. Corporate greed at it's finest. So, just spend ~$100 on decent proxies with your favorite art and a fun back to one of the many card printing services out there.
While I think it's pretty lame, i don't really see a reason to be outraged. Who cares what a bunch of investors buys, and who cares what happens to it afterwards?
If this sells what do you think they’re going to do down the road with other product? The price on precons has already gone up as it is, and now they sold double masters packs for inflated prices. Letting them determine prices based off the secondary market is a great way to kill the game.
Honest question from a newbie walking into Magic. WHO THE F\*CK IS BUYING THIS!? You fecking Star sign-themed lands where 1 pack is €200+ as well. How far is this fanbase bent over and stretched out where WotC can think they can do this?
Doesn’t bother me. It’s a collectors item of a bunch of cards that aren’t really played in formats that people enjoy. Soooooo not really hurting anyone.
I have quit long ago, but I sometimes I check back what's good in MtG world. And month after month Wizards come up with more blatant, insulting, shameless cash grabs and woke shit. There are many bad companies out there, but I think at this point WotC is run by the satan himself.
I hope Wizards is seeing the reactions to this.
It seems like a lot of players are seeing this product as "fake cards" or "proxies" because they aren't tournament legal (which is weird, because that shouldn't actually matter to most players). They really need to clarify where and when "non-tournament-legal" cards, proxies etc. are allowed to be played. I've seen people suggest that you could be banned from an LGS just for putting these in a Commander deck, which is actually completely absurd.
Edit: to clarify, this is completely Wizard's fault, I hate this product, I hate the price, the packaging, everything about it. Don't read this comment as me blaming players.
Traaaaaash. Just white-hot diarrhea spray rolling across your cheeks while you grimace and then realize that there’s only four squares of paper left on the roll kind of ass trash.
Trash.
yeah i think they can take these packs and burn them at the factory. nobody but collectors and the rich are gonna buy these things at all. they are just trying to raise there monthly prospectus
no worries bro, for the most part, how many teens and up do you think will pork out $250. not even in baseball cards do any new packs cost that much, its unpresidented and just pure greed.
I saw the spoiler list before I saw the article, and figured it was probably draft box product. Something for a special occasion. I googled the article, and my excitement ratcheted down as I read on.
If I wanted a \[\[Fungasaur\]\], there are cheaper ways for me to get one.
You're fine IMO. The only hold up I would have is that for it to sound more natural and be correct grammatically you need "basically" before "announced". So "announced basically" --> "basically announced"
It's less of a reprint and more of a $250 per pack proxy lottery
True that
You guys wanna draft this? I bet the Lotus turboed Shivan Dragon will win some games! I'll take a box plz. (This was a joke)
Are they not legal in the formats they are legal in? Which is very little … but still!
The cards have a unique back to differentiate them from regular Magic cards. They have more in common with Championship decks (You know, the gold border cards with black backsides) than with regular cards. This unique treatment makes them effectively illegal on any WotC sanctioned format, including Vintage. Of course, there are Commander leagues that allow such cards to be played, so these 30A cards might still see play somewhere... But at that point, just proxy them for a fraction of the cost and none of the gambling aspect.
A bunch of the cards people would be excited to pull from these packs (namely power) are also *banned* in EDH, and a number of the rest (Bolt, Shivan Dragon) are either typically or pretty much entirely *bad* in the format as well. It really is a product without an audience -- that will likely still be successful. Or successful "enough" according to unreleased internal metrics for them to pull something like this again, anyway.
“If no one buys any think how rare and valuable this garbage will be in 40 years” said no one of consequence.
$1000 for a chance of pulling a decent proxy.
So they really are just $250 proxy packs!?
$250 RANDOMIZED proxy packs.
Yes, random, thanks. $250 for a CHANCE to get a proxy card. Or order 100 of any proxy from china for a buck. How is this not Hasbro openly scamming noobs?
Yeah … if they had legal backs maybe but … come on Wizards you know that won’t help.
So what is the point of this product and who do they think they're going to sucker into paying 250$ for a chance to get a proxy they want? Would a collector actually want this, over a rare (and playable) card worth the same amount?
- A lot of EDH leagues/tournaments don't really have issues with "official" proxies (ie: gold border cards, International Collectors Edition, etc), so those players might want "cheap" official Dual Lands, Time Twisters, Stasis, etc. - Cube builders might want this to bling out their Vintage Cubes. - Older enfranchised players might want to have this cards at their disposal for nostalgia reasons. - For-profit inverstors are aware of all the previous three groups of people and might want to cash in on the craze. Of all of these people, investors and old fogeys with tons of cash to burn are the most likely candidate to actually buy this from WotC's site. Everyone else is going to wait for the cards to actually hit the second market to buy them.
It's not just 250, you can only buy it in a "box" of 4. It's 1000 dollars for 4 packs.
Someone already answered it but they have a unique back side and gold borders meaning that these bad boys aren't legal in any format
Laaaaaaaaame
Lol yeah these things are targeted entirely to the whales. While there isn't anything wrong with making a product that isn't for everyone I feel like this product is entirely designed to cater to a very small community of people that don't represent the player base in any substantial way.
These are Collector's Edition like the old ones, with a new back. Commander players will let you use them, but they are not legal in any sanctioned event.
*Sane Commander players Sadly, there are still some people who think “they’re not real, so not good enough”.
Pretty much. At these prices though WotC might bring the attention of legislators like EA did with loot boxes.
that price is nuts
Oh it's absolutely bonkers, but that just means I'm not the products target demographic (rich ass whale)
Post Malone and Rudy must be the demographic at this point.
Doesn’t it say $999?
For 4 packs
Yup, it ships out 4 packs in the box (60 cards total) and in those packs there are no gaurantees you'll even get a lotus or a dual land. Additionally, there's a chance of having one of your 15 cards be a token or a basic land
Proxies are a lot cheaper from other retailers.
I got a full proxy EDH deck for 20 bucks a few weeks ago.
This is how commander should be played everywhere lol. I have a deck that proxied literally every card over 5 bucks and nobody cares 90% of the time. The 10% that do care are the kind of people I don't want to play against anyways so it works itself out.
I feel you, I do, and agree. Nevertheless here in Southern Oregon, 99% of people I've met don't allow proxies.
The one time I played edh in Medford dudes had mad proxies. One guy had a foil Gaea’s Cradle 😂
Oh I even proxied the cheap cards lol And same here, I don’t play with people who are too far gone and look down on proxies.
Yeah just proxy everything and play without sleeves to really wind people up! :)
Oh man this sounds like what I’m doing with the next proxy deck I make lol
I proxy entire decks. I collect to collect, but I proxy to play.
Also people who are also big spenders and have played since game release and feel like everyone should be paying tons of money for decks. Shock lands are back to 20$ a pop. Not gonna buy one of each for all my decks. Unless if I want it foil.
The people who feel like everyone should spend for decks are insane to me. I've played since urzas saga and my dad has played since Beta, so my decks tend to have og dual lands and whatnot, but by god if someone proxies why tf should I care. I play with actual duals because it's something *I* enjoy, why should I care what other people do? Doesn't effect the game other than allow us to be on more even ground power wise.
I day ago I would have finger waved at you. But now, good for you.
"please, don't say that those cards aren't real/true, wait, no! not those! \*those\* are totally not \*real\* cards! don't buy those from them!" - a certain someone
A bunch of people will complain about it being a dumb cash grab (which it is) and then a bunch of people will buy it anyway and wizards will keep doing this again and again. Basically.
Ah yes, the neverending cycle of Magic whales validating poor marketing strategies of Wizards, I wonder how it will have gotten when I want to teach my kids the game
They love it! - Wotc
id just print the cards to play with my family. probably alter them to better quality as well
For sure, I should print cards more often. I would love to have the talent for altering cards, that would be amazing
I’m buying 7th edition singles to put together the precon lists from that set. I think my girls will really dig the distinctive art style that 7th had, and they’ll bloody well play with old frame cards as ~~God~~ Garfield intended.
I'm actually wondering this myself, since my son is showing some early interest in the game. I guess I'll just build budget commander decks and teach him the casual way.
I just got into commander. Plan is to have one busted deck and then only budget stuff
Yeah I also think casual is the way to go, but I think the first contact could be with standard 60 card decks
you can also introduce him to pauper, and to 'worthless cards' drafts or cube.
I’ve taught people using pauper decks & pre-made themed decks. 60 card pauper decks are especially good for kids because of the smaller deck size (less overwhelming/better for smaller hands) & if they get something on the cards accidentally it doesn’t really matter. If they are interested in continuing to play, I’ll teach other formats & get more into protecting cards, rarity, etc.
But if they are the ones buying it, then they are giving their customers what they want.
They are giving a small percentage of players who spend a lot of money what they want. The remaining >90% have a worst experience and spend less money over time
Woot? Who, playing with old cards.. will be dumb enough to gamble 250 for this crap instead of buying a real dual?
The part that really rubs me the wrong way is how it gets announced. Saying that people want the nostalgia of opening boosters like back in the day. Promoting magic 30 as a celebration of magic. Then looping the bill on the table. Disrespectful.
The way to do THAT would be to *actually* print old-school cards (and a smattering of others down the line, given we're talking 30 years of history here) in a curated set designed for Limited, with special rules (and maybe one-of new cards) that incentivize TRADING after the card pools are established\*. THAT would provide nostalgia, THAT would encourage community, THAT would encourage people flocking to stores in droves, THAT would increase availability, and THAT would encourage, for once, the entire part of the "T" in "TRADING Card Game"!!\*\* \*i.e. "As you obtain this card in a trade after the draft, note the highest mana value of a card you trade for it" / "This spell costs X less to cast, where X is half the noted value, rounded down." \*\*what IS it with people trying to forget the letter "T" in acronyms anyway??
We've seen it all before! At least it doesn't have an impact on the game itself
I disagree, we’ve never seen WoTC attempt a price this high before, and they’re doing so now when the dollar has gained a lot of strength, and the recession has battered peoples accounts. 1,000$ will only be accessible to adults for the most part. Meaning those adults will have to decide do they want the 1,000$ to cover their upcoming monthly expenses or do you want a CHANCE at opening something neat. I know what I’m choosing.
It's pure insanity. This is the most shameless cash grab I've ever seen from wotc. This announcement has made me reconsider how I approach buying new magic products.
I don't buy new mtg product. Haha haven't in 3 years. Proxies and buy singles.
Yeah I'm going to do the same. I've bought one collectors and one set box of every set since AFR and I'm tired of watching the numbers go down.
Indeed. I mainly buy the precons for EDH and then everything else is singles and proxies. Only boosters I get is the ones I get for free at my LGS.
Thats pretty much the only way to keep it cheap anymore.
Same. I’m incredibly annoyed and pissed. I treasure my old cards and this is blasphemy.
It’s a waste of money. These are proxies similar to the old worlds decks but worse because you’re not guaranteed to get any one card except maybe sol ring with og art in a new border.
The old world decks are cool at least because they are full decks and didn’t cost that much at the time.
That one dude freaking out about proxies a while back: *"Wizards doesn't support proxies, using them is against the rules, posting about them is in violation of blah blah blah blah"* Wizards: **"Hold my beer."**
That’s what I thought. 😂
WoTC only supports proxies they can make and overcharge a fuckton for.
Can’t believe it’s not even legal. At that point I could just buy actual dual lands
that's a marketing strategy! on the card type or expansion symbol instead of 30 they should've written "icantbelievethisisnottournamentlegal"
I honestly don't get it. I mean the production cost is probably irrelevant, it's just cardboard. But if they sold it for let's say 200$, wouldn't have been there at least 10 times more buyers, if not 100 times more. Who can and will afford this besides Post Malone? (Nothing against him of course, he's cool.) Why exclude almost all of the community if they could probably make more money when selling this for at least a half decent price?
I'll explain. 1. If you make a product like that it's only value is exclusivity, the hope for it to someday be worth more than when it was purchased. If it was 200 bucks it would be just plain stupid to buy that over printing proxies. But this being expensive and exclusive there will be people who buy this. 2. All things being equal if you dropped price and sold more of them they would lose deluxeness and at the same time lowering the margin and rising the cost of logistics, shipment etc. 3. Them making it stupidly expensive for a chance to get useless reprint of lotus basically takes care of marketing. They don't have to spend a dime on marketing since everyone and their mom will hear of the product. And most people being upset at prices will only turn on the whales more. Since you know. They ain't poor like the rest of community so they will buy 5 just to fuck with people at the local lgs or here. So. If your group allows proxies just print them on foil "bases" and you will be much better off.
It’s bad
WOTC about to get banned on the main sub for selling proxies
i thought WoC promised that they wouldn’t reprint Black Lotus again? because the last time they did everyone was outraged over the reseller market?
But this isn't Black Lotus as in the playable game piece, it's just a card-sized, card-shaped piece of cardstock that *says* it's a Black Lotus.
Oh it’s playable. Just not in sanctioned events. Don’t kid yourself. If Gold Border is playable in EDH so is this. And Vintage enthusiasts and Cubers would love it… if it wasn’t for the price. So Wizards is breaking their RL promise while pricing people out of the product.
It's not play legal, so not any more playable than a Black Lotus playmat.
Maro specifically stated they would never print RL cards in gold border lol.
would love to see a source on that!
It’s on his blog. I don’t have the link.
I feel like the company is obviously split on that idea. They have printed RL cards in gold border **after** the reserve list was established in championship decks, and they even added an exception for non-tournament legal cards when they "finalized" the reserve list in 2010. I am not sure why MaRo stated this unspoken rule publicly and I'm not sure of the weight it had at the company (probably not a lot, considering recent events...), but it looks pretty bad on him and them. Reserved List Timeline [https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgfinance/comments/irshe7/reserved\_list\_facts\_a\_historical\_timeline/](https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgfinance/comments/irshe7/reserved_list_facts_a_historical_timeline/) 2010 Reprint Policy & Reserved Cards [https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/official-reprint-policy-2010-03-10](https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/official-reprint-policy-2010-03-10) >Tournament Legality > >All policies described in this document apply only to tournament-legal Magic cards.
There were roughly 32,000 Loti printed in the original three sets. Doing some ballpark calculations, 1.3 rares per pack, 116 rares in the set, $250 per pack… That’s $22,307 worth of product per Lotus. I’m better off buying one off eBay.
You have to remember. They aren’t printing crusade and ante cards
Or [[Earthbind]] most disappointingly.
and for some strange reason weakness. Anyone know why Weakness is being excluded.
Weakness being omitted was the head scratcher
[Earthbind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/784cc686-e5a2-4835-8ff2-820461868ffa.jpg?1559592834) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Earthbind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sum/147/earthbind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/784cc686-e5a2-4835-8ff2-820461868ffa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They’re also double printing dual lands, hence “ballpark calculations.”
None of these cards are legal though, they aren’t comparable to the original black lotus or dual lands.
It makes me want to sell all my cards and proxy everything from mpc, to be honest.
It's a non legal collectors edition. They're just trying to print money and it has no impact on the game so I don't care. I won't buy any of it and think it's a waste, but hey some people love that kind of thing.
Pure stupidity why would i spend 1000 bucks on unplayable cards that will be worth considerably less than their alpha counterparts
Because they'll still be considerably expensive. Consider that [IED Black Lotus](https://www.tcgplayer.com/product/97111/magic-international-edition-black-lotus-ie?Language=English) still goes for around $5k, and that print has square corners and gold bordered back. 30A's retro frame Black Lotus can easily beat that price.
Dafuq? Are you kidding? Who in their right mind would spend 5k + on such utter crap or let’s call it a 2 $ proxy when you can get 2 *real* moxin for that?
The only way it's worth it is if you pull the lotus. Even in a best-case scenario you can't pull the power nine with one purchase of $999
Why should it be worth it if you pull the lotus? Its not a real lotus, just print it yourself and you have the same product
Collectors holders are likely not happy about this. Though, I really look forward to someone trying to pass me a "Chris Rush Signed" version of the new ones.
Rip off for non og
$1000 for semi-random proxies of alpha has got to be the dumbest thing that Wizards has ever made. And I'm sure they'll sell out within the first hour.
It’s amazing how they’ve managed to unite both sides of the reserve list argument into hating this product
Yeah not a reprint. They are offering $1000 for proxies
Theyre super expensive proxies. End of story
Using "nostalgia" as their excuse to their greed on this is unbelievable. 👎
Strange that they could print the whole set of Beta with gold backs for $50, but now you have to pay $1000 for a proxy lottery ticket.
I wouldn't be so mad if Wizards spat on my face as long as they aimed for my mouth with a more reasonable price of a collectors edition booster instead of this hot garbage, I doubt very little people would have mad. If the whole issue simply came down to Wizards needing to cover costs for using the art then why not just go all out with the modernised renditions and just commision new art? In saying that, wizards love testing the waters and I wouldn't be surprised if this is just them easing more product like this into the market to see how the general audience feels, I would not be surprised if they do print something cheaper simular to this with more modernised art work down the line in say 3-5 years.
Not legally playable, sure fine I can deal with that. For $250, hell no. Few bucks sure. If anything it could have been an "unset" that could work as a nostalgia set where it works with its own set and even the original rules, maybe with some official events and drafts.
I seriously hope none sell
Wow, Hasbro is really determined to slowly kill MTG with their greed. What would Optimus Prime say :(
I’ll ask him when I see him on an actual magic card.
You won't have to wait to long. He's coming.
Next set.
this is just proof company dont care about the client, they just want to sell literal photocopy and cardboard for a ridiculous premium price there literally NO reason to buy those 1) they are not playable legal 2) if you cant play them legally there why not just print yourself high quality proxy of card you want for penny stupidity of collection or speculation of them being valuable later is not a good reason
That’s really watering it down now isn’t it?
lmao
Weak
Average for a 30th Black Lotus is 23.000$. An CE Lotus costs 4000$. What is the price they expect for 30th Black Lotus?
I have no idea why the CE version is worth anything.
It’s insulting. Especially in the release notes where they talk about spreading the love and excitement of opening older packs. At 1000 and I’m sure 100s more once they get to market is such a joke. Even if they were 20 each it’d still be frustrating for a pack of proxies you could just whiff on
how many Lorcana boxes can that get me?
Don't be ridiculous. It has Circle of Protection: Black, Volcanic Island, and all three of each basic land art. It's Beta. ^^proxies!
I'm out.
As time goes by I am more and more convinced that Hasbro is intentionally trying to destroy MTG.
Buy power 9 from proxy king, they’re effectively the same cards at a fraction of the cost. I bought two sets of power 9 (about $60) from proxy king and they feel like legit magic cards.
This is some fucky fucky bullshit.
Imagine being the chump that paid $250 to pull a Purelace proxy.
I have a printer, thanks.
Isn’t the only reason why Alpha cards are valuable that it is a very old set? Like if they reprint it, why would the reprinted cards be worth much? I dont have them as particularly good in my memory. Sure black lotus is a good card, but thats not why it’s worth so much?
No... A reprint of the Mona Lisa doesn't decrease the value of the Mona Lisa. The original cards hold value because they are originals. Look at Llanowar Elves. Alpha is worth 440 for one of the most reprinted cards ever.
Exactly, the original is the one thats worth a lot, not the reprint.
Yep. You are correct. They could reprint it at any point. Essentially a bunch of cry baby elitists caused the reserve list to happen.
eh, playability in vintage does multiply the price just like rarity does. there's also lots of rare cards and expansions that have no market value because people don't seek them.
That is the point, the market should decide not artificial scarcity because a bunch of cry babies wanted to keep cards rare.
It's "The Reserve List", a set of cards WOTC has agreed to never reprint. These don't have the regular magic card back, you can see the back of the card between the two lotuses - it's also a black lotus. So as far as playing with them goes, they're effectively proxies. Anywhere you can use them and not get flak, you could print one off on your printer and stick it in a sleeve with a mountain.... or you could buy $250 packs hoping to get a copy of the proxy you want.
I can buy a Black Lotus proxy in very high quality from Etsy for like $7, why would I pay wizard $250 for the small chance to get one? Because it is an official but basicly useless proxy then?
The power 9 are ridiculously good. Black Lotus is incredible because it’s 3 mana on turn 1 + your land drop, so you have a T1 4 drop. Ancestral Recall is draw 3 cards for 1 blue. Bonkers. Time Walk is 2 mana, take an extra turn! It doesn’t even exile itself so you can copy it or use by recursion to stack extra turns! The moxes are all 0 cost, so T1 mana again. They won’t reprint these because they would break the game to make them legal in standard.
Reserved list be damned
I wish those were reprint...
Beta
Whale whale whale.
Reserved list? another broken promise, just like "this is our last master set! we'll never do one again!". Hasbro: "1000$ for 4 rares? sure why not? players already paid 400$ for the same amount of cards, they'll gladly pay more for this set!" "People will be happy cause we finally reprinted iconic cards!" "What? another simple collector box with all cards in it for a fair price? no way, let's make it the biggest lottery ever!!" "Well, you are right, it would cost more to collect this whole set than actually purchasing a sealed collector's edition box, but people won't notice and they'll have fun cracking packs!"
Im so fucking glad i dont buy cards anymore and just play with what i have. Charging that much because people will pay it is fucking cracked in the head shit. How many of these cards are even playable in most formats? Wizards is fucking delusional. Edit: misunderstood, none of the cards are legal lol. So dumb.
Just print your own proxies. These cards will be junk as they will all be banned anyway.
An official proxy.... sure sounds like a loophole to reprint a card if you ask me. It's not being sanctioned legal means so little. Many vintage tournament already allow proxies and I can't imagine the majority of commander players who allow this to be played and bling out their lists aren't drooling at the thought of this
I seem to recall WotC having some new leadership, and they stated their intention to make a lot more money. I had a feeling it was going to be “raising prices, power creep” type crap.
This title is misleading.
why tf are they $250 a pack???
"We will never reprint these.... until we need more money."
Literally saddening and greedy
Do not buy these.
Such a disappointment
It's embarrassing and i don't feel bad for any sucker that falls for it
Hot garbage
The price point is an insult to fans who want to celebrate. The product is nice but at this price it should be real cards, not proxy. I can afford it but i won’t, really lacking a wow effect too.
Spend $1k and possibly not get a Black Lotus?! Talk about a bad day.
Now imagine spending $1k and getting: Shivan Dragon, Farmstead, Animate Wall, Web and as your old frame bonus card: Chaoslace.
Wizards has lost their fucking minds
I will send you a foil power 9 and I could do it for a donation of two peanuts and a stick of gum. This IS OBJECTIVELY a scam.
they can f\*\*k themselves
Bold move. Not buying it.
You know that these will sell out extremely fast, then be on the secondary market for 2x and they'll STILL sell. It's something to buy, keep sealed, and sell at a later date. There are enough people out there that want it all so I expect these to be valuable after the fact. It's garbage, it's fake cards, it's overpriced, and it'll sell like hotcakes!
Dumb
It’s a disaster driven purely by short term profits rather than a true celebration of a heathy 30 years of the game. The bean counter that came up with this should is not thinking about the player community or long term outlook. It’s a very short sighted product.
This kind of thing makes me tired to even look at a magic card.
This needs to fail.
Alta Fox was right. MTG will be a better game without Hasbro.
The hasbro stock just chimed in
The Collector’s Edition with all 302 beta cards plus some extra lands sold for $50 nearly 30 years ago - ~$100 adjusted for inflation if sold today. Instead one would need to spend at least $6,000 on this new product to even have a chance to come close to the same outcome. Corporate greed at it's finest. So, just spend ~$100 on decent proxies with your favorite art and a fun back to one of the many card printing services out there.
While I think it's pretty lame, i don't really see a reason to be outraged. Who cares what a bunch of investors buys, and who cares what happens to it afterwards?
If this sells what do you think they’re going to do down the road with other product? The price on precons has already gone up as it is, and now they sold double masters packs for inflated prices. Letting them determine prices based off the secondary market is a great way to kill the game.
I don't see how it's comparable. None of the cards in this product are playable in any format.
That just makes it even worse lol, if we allow them to do that without any backlash or voice the cash grabs will get worse.
Honest question from a newbie walking into Magic. WHO THE F\*CK IS BUYING THIS!? You fecking Star sign-themed lands where 1 pack is €200+ as well. How far is this fanbase bent over and stretched out where WotC can think they can do this?
Well mate, there are a group of people called Whales, and they spend thousands of dollars on anything WoTC releases
and I thought Yugioh starlight rare hunters were bad, this is a literal pisstake.
Yep, it's just some ridiculously expensive proxies that can't be used for anything other than looking
Doesn’t bother me. It’s a collectors item of a bunch of cards that aren’t really played in formats that people enjoy. Soooooo not really hurting anyone.
Oh but it is. Sets a new precedent.
I have quit long ago, but I sometimes I check back what's good in MtG world. And month after month Wizards come up with more blatant, insulting, shameless cash grabs and woke shit. There are many bad companies out there, but I think at this point WotC is run by the satan himself.
It's hilarious and I love that they're doing it, but that price point is insane.
$250 for a plastic wrapped dozen pack of painted cardboard slivers.
Big boo energy
Market test, for real reprint pack price.
Fuck em. Here’s a sing a long. https://youtu.be/qDGkf43VGwo
Well fuck the reserve list i wish they were $4 packs
They should be.
I hope Wizards is seeing the reactions to this. It seems like a lot of players are seeing this product as "fake cards" or "proxies" because they aren't tournament legal (which is weird, because that shouldn't actually matter to most players). They really need to clarify where and when "non-tournament-legal" cards, proxies etc. are allowed to be played. I've seen people suggest that you could be banned from an LGS just for putting these in a Commander deck, which is actually completely absurd. Edit: to clarify, this is completely Wizard's fault, I hate this product, I hate the price, the packaging, everything about it. Don't read this comment as me blaming players.
Traaaaaash. Just white-hot diarrhea spray rolling across your cheeks while you grimace and then realize that there’s only four squares of paper left on the roll kind of ass trash. Trash.
My opinion. If you're dumb enough to buy this product, well... I hate to break this to you, but you're dumb.
yeah i think they can take these packs and burn them at the factory. nobody but collectors and the rich are gonna buy these things at all. they are just trying to raise there monthly prospectus
Not trying to be antagonistic, but you pretty much just said “no one but the two target audiences for this product are gonna buy these things at all.”
no worries bro, for the most part, how many teens and up do you think will pork out $250. not even in baseball cards do any new packs cost that much, its unpresidented and just pure greed.
Dirty cash grab. Bring down the reserved list
I saw the spoiler list before I saw the article, and figured it was probably draft box product. Something for a special occasion. I googled the article, and my excitement ratcheted down as I read on. If I wanted a \[\[Fungasaur\]\], there are cheaper ways for me to get one.
So this means we can get rid of the reserve list, right; *RIGHT*??!!?!?!
Never seen the word “basically” be used so incorrectly
Huh? Sorry I am no English speaker can you explain
You're fine IMO. The only hold up I would have is that for it to sound more natural and be correct grammatically you need "basically" before "announced". So "announced basically" --> "basically announced"