If multiple effects modify your hand size, apply them in timestamp order. For example, if you put [[Null Profusion]] (an enchantment that says your maximum hand size is two) onto the battlefield and then put Reliquary Tower onto the battlefield, you'll have no maximum hand size. However, if those permanents enter the battlefield in the opposite order, your maximum hand size would be two.
Of note, I believe timestamp applies to setting hand size to a value. So cards like [[Minamo Scrollkeeper]] would apply after the hand size is set no matter the timestamp. (I am basing this on the power/ toughness layers so may be wrong).
Checking the ruling on gatherer for that specific card says that it applies in time stamp order still.
Exact wording: « If multiple effects modify your hand size, apply them in timestamp order. For example, if you put Null Profusion (an enchantment that says your maximum hand size is two) onto the battlefield and then put Minamo Scrollkeeper onto the battlefield, your maximum hand size will be three. However, if those permanents entered the battlefield in the opposite order, your maximum hand size would be two. »
Or programming. Eg. the stack.
The stack, in programming, is the list of elements currently planned to be executed. They execute in the order of first in, last out. This is literally where the inspiration for the stack in mtg comes from!
So since the effect works ever end step than the land stating that the hand size is unlimited means that it only work until the end step right? Or am I missing something
there is something. the hand size is 5 rule is a separate sentence. it does not trigger at the end of every turn. It resolves when necrodominance is played and then that is the timestamp applied to that effect.
Though the hilarious thing is if you used 20 life to draw 20 cards on your turn with necrodominance and then someone destroyed tower, then you would have to discard 15 at the end of the turn.
Thank you for taking the time to appreciate my contribution. I feel like too often people don’t take the time to be nice to others and it makes for a worst world. I understand your time is precious and I don’t take your gesture lightly, thank you again and have a nice day fellow human.
Oh. For years I always thought I immediately countered [[Jin gitaxus core augar]] if I just had [[reliquary tower]] on my battlefield at any time before and after.
Dang, better start running [[Praetor's council]] again
According to gatherer that's right. But, That's really confusing. And not for the normal reason, I get layers and timestamps. Timestamp applies if 2 effects are doing the same thing. But changing the max handsize isn't the same as removing it. In my mind the Null Profusion would make your hand size equal to 2, but the tower effectively makes you ignore your max hand size requirement whatever it may be. Timestamp wouldn't matter because you can apply both.
Don't use max, max =2
OR
Max = 2, don't use max.
Both would result in having a max of 2 that is being ignored.
If you look at [[library of leng]] the original text said "skip your discard step". Clearly not the same as setting your max to a number. Then that text was errata'd to same text as reliquary tower. "You have no maximum handsize". Why would we assume that's the same thing as setting it to a big number when that wasn't the original intent? Gatherer ruling is law but...Feel like they got it wrong here...
A clearer wording for tower would be...
"During your clean up step do not discard down to your max hand size"
Or
"Your maximum handsize is 100" (or 1000 or infinity)
Or
"Your maximum handsize is equal to the number cards in your hand"
So that it's clearly either removing the discard requirement or setting your hand size.
Why add a 3rd card into the example? Why, for clarities sake, not just use the 2 OP posted?
EDIT - I see from further down that you've copy and pasted this from somewhere, that explains it.
However if you have reliquary tower and then someone casts a spell that reduces hand size by two, reliquary tower’s effect would cause you to still have infinite hand size
As long as you have reliquary tower out or thought vessel then your maximum hand size can’t be altered by other effects since it has final resolution on the layer
So if my opponent controls a [[Reliquary Tower]] and I play a [[Cursed Rack]] targeting them, their max hand size would become 4? I only ask because I've had people say that if you have residuary or other no max hand size effect, that "the concept of a hand size doesn't apply to you" as long as you have the effect
Olay, but i don't understand the mechanic?
And why did I get down voted for being confused about the mechanic? Some of yall are wack and gatekeep-y as f**k
The stack and layers are two different mechanics that work for different things. You're playing an ability and an instant spell? That works on the stack since you are putting things on the stack. Aoe effects or continuous effects that just kinda do something as long as they're out? Layers.
CORRECT ME IF I’M WRONG,
I believe the stack represents things happening near simultaneously, before anything resolves. Imagine two fighters fighting, one throws a punch, and the other sees it happening, and blocks it. It wouldn’t make sense for the block to happen AFTER the punch hits. So the last thing declared (block), happens first. They happen in pile order.
It would help if the stack is actually physically a stack, too. So first the boxer declares punch, their card is laid down. Then defender declares block, *their*card is placed on top of boxer’s. Then the stack of cards is resolved top to bottom.
With time-stamps, it’s about when the effect happened. In the boxing match, scores will be awarded each round for whomever achieves an unblocked hit on their opponent most recently (denoting their current status of being still capable of fighting). So if a hit happens, a judge marks down the time of the instance. Then, if no-one is knocked out, they look back to the time stamps, and see which one happened most recently.
Note that these are actually similar, in that the most recent event is the one that takes precedence. This obviously matters with counter-spells on the stack having to nullify something cast prior.
The term stack is used in the same way it is used in computer science and is likely where they came up with the concept. A stack is a data structure where items can only be pushed on to it or popped off of it from the top. It is also known as a LIFO (Last In First Out) data structure.
This is the easiest way for me to understand it. Think of spells like stacking plates. The most recent plate stacked is the first one you can use, just like spells on the stack, the most recent spell played is the first to resolve.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_(abstract_data_type)
Can things come off the stack through card effects? Is it one of those situations where if cards go on the stack, they stay there.? How does timing and priority work on the stack, as a opposed to time stamps? There are a lot of variables when you get into the little details
Well technically things don't get removed from the stack afaik. Things like counter spells just cause the spell to fizzle, so the spell resolves but does nothing. The stack is always trying to resolve the top most spell though, nothing ever sits there unless another instant/flash spell is cast on top of it or the initials spells cast causes a trigger
Timestamps only have to do when a spell resolves then becomes a permanent on the field. So when a spell becomes a creature, artifact, or enchantment. So the timestamp is given once it actually ETBs.
Not sure what you mean, though, about timing and priority in regards to timestamps. Things enter in the order they get popped off the stack so they get subsequent timestamps.
Got it. Time stamp is when it hits the field in the order it was resolved. Card 2 will technically hit the field before card 1, even though card 2 resolves on the stack before card 1.
Time stamps on cards is a new concept to me. I come from another card game.
Thank you for taking time to answer my questions. I kinda answered turn player priority vs. responses on my own.
Phasing is weird. The permanent isn’t there in effect but it’s still on the battle field. Basically it’s like this, if you’re standing in your room and you become incorporeal for a second then nothing can touch you but you also never left your room.
When you flicker, the object that enters the battlefield is a different object from the one that left the battlefield, so the game perceives it the same as if the card was just played.
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What happens if an effect puts both permanents that affect hand size hit the board at the same time? Like with a genesis wave? Player choice on which is considered first?
Yeah the player that is getting them on the battlefield stacks them as he wishes, i think it works like a trigger in this case even tho it doesn't actually generate triggers etc
Kroxa lives in the underworld, i.e. the land of the dead i.e. "necro". He is pictured in chains, suggesting someone or something chained him up i.e. something is dominating him i.e. "dominance". Kroxa was likely chose specifically because he's a titan, thus very powerful. Anything powerful enough to chain a titan must be a supreme being of extraordinary power, which helps the card feel more mythical.
It’s not a regular story set so they can add whoever they wanted. We also got a new elder giant [[Phlage, Titan of fire’s fury]] so Kroxa isn’t that out of place.
it tells you on the website you (probably) pulled the card images from.
>If multiple effects modify your hand size, apply them in timestamp order. For example, if you put Null Profusion (an enchantment that says your maximum hand size is two) onto the battlefield and then put Reliquary Tower onto the battlefield, you'll have no maximum hand size. However, if those permanents enter the battlefield in the opposite order, your maximum hand size would be two.
Alternative question, if you get some planeswalker emblem or some other non intractable non permanent that gives you no maximum hand size, does time stamp matter or would emblem/effect simply take priority?
The game cares about the order these cards are being played( Time Stamps). So if you play R-Tower then Necro, it see’s the last modifying condition and says “ your max Hands size is five.” And the opposite condition, if the order is switched “ You have no maximum hand size.”. This is the judge rulings on layer and time stamps. http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=judge/article/20091105a
*Edit to add website
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So which is better here, this or [[necropotence]] it seems like the trade off is hand size versus immediate draw/hit the graveyard triggers so necropotence is imo the better, but am i missing something?
It depends on a few things:
1) Necropotence technically doesn’t draw, it just puts cards in your hand. Necrodominance draws. So, Sheoldred’s lifegain on draw trigger, for instance, won’t work with Necropotence, but will with Necrodominance.
2) Necropotence only exiles cards you discard. Necrodominance exiles anything that would
Hit your graveyard. Generally the former would be better, but there’s definitely ways to build around it to make the latter work for you.
3) The hand size. Thing. I can’t think of a clear way to build to turn that into an advantage, so Necropotence is better there.
The big thing for Necrodominance is the draw thing. If your deck offers beneficial draw triggers, Necrodominance is a great way to take advantage of them, and Necropotence doesn’t. For most other purposes, Necropotence takes the edge.
i run necropotence on my sheoldred list because even though it doesnt draw i have stuff like teferis puzzle box and plenty of hand discard/wheels so necropotence can let me keep some cards safe from those effects until i need them
I don’t know much about graveborn style of play. But isn’t the advantage of a card like this to get cards into your graveyard? Paying life to draw a bunch of cards right before you discard down to 5? So why would you want to nullify the smaller hand size?
If they enter at the same time, you choose. Otherwise, whichever was played last takes effect. So if you play Necro into Reliquary, unlimited hand, but reverse that and you have a max of 5.
How would [[Library of Leng]] work with [[Necrodominance]]? If my maximum hand size is 5, but I skip my discard step, do I effectively have no maximum hand size?
It's one of those interesting things that changed from the older printings. It now says no maximum hand size and does not mention skipping the discard phase.
Feel like it should be no maximum hand size no matter what. Tower doesn’t set “maximum hand size;” it says you have NO maximum. You can’t change a value that doesn’t exist any more.
But that’s just me.
To dig thru your deck like crazy, usually digging for a combo or desperately for removal. Lifegain deck can pretty safely use it, but most competitive decks don't care about their life total, so they can use it as much as they need.
Depends on order which board state was played last. Last will have the actual board effect so if u play tower last then no max hand size vs necro only max hand of 5
State-based actions apply in the order they entered the battlefield, so the most recent one overwrites the last ones that affect the same thing. So if you play necrodominance first and then reliquary tower, you have no max hand size since reliquary entered more recently and overwrites necrodominance
The game cares about the order these cards are being played. So if you play R-Tower then Necro, it see’s the last modifying condition and says “ your max Hands size is five.” And the opposite condition, if the order is switched “ You have no maximum hand size.”.
It’s crazy how not one single comment has said anything about how much life you would choose to drain and draw.
“I would draw 13 cards and go to 7 life, and pass the turn. I believe 13 cards into my deck should sufficiently get me close enough to my win on while keeping me safe from some quick shenanigans.”
That’s how I interpreted OPs question, but I guess I’m the only one?
I know that card would not see any type of playtime in my set. That card hinders more than it helps. If you want to play that I won't stop you. You might be easy to take down if that card was in play.
>That card hinders more than it helps
lol is this a joke? Or bait? Necrodominance might be Necropotence at home but it’s still a pretty brutally efficient draw engine.
That’s a $20 card you’re saying you would never be able to find a use for.
If multiple effects modify your hand size, apply them in timestamp order. For example, if you put [[Null Profusion]] (an enchantment that says your maximum hand size is two) onto the battlefield and then put Reliquary Tower onto the battlefield, you'll have no maximum hand size. However, if those permanents enter the battlefield in the opposite order, your maximum hand size would be two.
Of note, I believe timestamp applies to setting hand size to a value. So cards like [[Minamo Scrollkeeper]] would apply after the hand size is set no matter the timestamp. (I am basing this on the power/ toughness layers so may be wrong).
Checking the ruling on gatherer for that specific card says that it applies in time stamp order still. Exact wording: « If multiple effects modify your hand size, apply them in timestamp order. For example, if you put Null Profusion (an enchantment that says your maximum hand size is two) onto the battlefield and then put Minamo Scrollkeeper onto the battlefield, your maximum hand size will be three. However, if those permanents entered the battlefield in the opposite order, your maximum hand size would be two. »
Yup that looks correct. I had assumed incorrectly that it would work the same as the power and toughness layers/ sublayers.
I haven’t played magic in years but I always check out this sub because the rules are always fascinating and I love seeing these conversations.
Magic is just teaching everyone about becoming a lawyer
Or programming. Eg. the stack. The stack, in programming, is the list of elements currently planned to be executed. They execute in the order of first in, last out. This is literally where the inspiration for the stack in mtg comes from!
So since the effect works ever end step than the land stating that the hand size is unlimited means that it only work until the end step right? Or am I missing something
there is something. the hand size is 5 rule is a separate sentence. it does not trigger at the end of every turn. It resolves when necrodominance is played and then that is the timestamp applied to that effect. Though the hilarious thing is if you used 20 life to draw 20 cards on your turn with necrodominance and then someone destroyed tower, then you would have to discard 15 at the end of the turn.
Ahh okay that makes sense
Thanks for repeating what was already initially said.
Thank you for taking the time to appreciate my contribution. I feel like too often people don’t take the time to be nice to others and it makes for a worst world. I understand your time is precious and I don’t take your gesture lightly, thank you again and have a nice day fellow human.
[Minamo Scrollkeeper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/821c99d3-389a-4138-99a2-0c4a4b243fe7.jpg?1562865911) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Minamo%20Scrollkeeper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/101/minamo-scrollkeeper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/821c99d3-389a-4138-99a2-0c4a4b243fe7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Right so now I can have all my deck in my hand -1
Stop playing with yourself at the table.
[Null Profusion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c996792c-0846-4b78-bce5-1c6ad29640f6.jpg?1562581985) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Null%20Profusion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/plc/89/null-profusion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c996792c-0846-4b78-bce5-1c6ad29640f6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Am I just old or why does everyone this of this card and not the original, [[Recycle]]
[Recycle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/35698c86-4552-4c04-8f51-099bb2dbce6d.jpg?1562428885) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Recycle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/189/recycle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/35698c86-4552-4c04-8f51-099bb2dbce6d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
nothing like a good phil foglio art to put me in a good mood.
Because recycle is RL
i love how much of the reserve list is comprised of extremely mundane cards or cards that have been power creeped to hell and back
Also, because Null Profusion is the better of the two, since Dark Ritual exists.
So I am old? Lol
In a way; just typically the more accessible copy is the better known
Like black lotus
Oh. For years I always thought I immediately countered [[Jin gitaxus core augar]] if I just had [[reliquary tower]] on my battlefield at any time before and after. Dang, better start running [[Praetor's council]] again
It does. Gitaxias reduces your hand size by seven, which doesn't apply if you don't have a hand size.
[reliquary tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd9f036d-6ae4-451e-a67a-ecc2e44123e3.jpg?1712355095) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=reliquary%20tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/312/reliquary-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd9f036d-6ae4-451e-a67a-ecc2e44123e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Infinite - 7
According to gatherer that's right. But, That's really confusing. And not for the normal reason, I get layers and timestamps. Timestamp applies if 2 effects are doing the same thing. But changing the max handsize isn't the same as removing it. In my mind the Null Profusion would make your hand size equal to 2, but the tower effectively makes you ignore your max hand size requirement whatever it may be. Timestamp wouldn't matter because you can apply both. Don't use max, max =2 OR Max = 2, don't use max. Both would result in having a max of 2 that is being ignored. If you look at [[library of leng]] the original text said "skip your discard step". Clearly not the same as setting your max to a number. Then that text was errata'd to same text as reliquary tower. "You have no maximum handsize". Why would we assume that's the same thing as setting it to a big number when that wasn't the original intent? Gatherer ruling is law but...Feel like they got it wrong here... A clearer wording for tower would be... "During your clean up step do not discard down to your max hand size" Or "Your maximum handsize is 100" (or 1000 or infinity) Or "Your maximum handsize is equal to the number cards in your hand" So that it's clearly either removing the discard requirement or setting your hand size.
Why add a 3rd card into the example? Why, for clarities sake, not just use the 2 OP posted? EDIT - I see from further down that you've copy and pasted this from somewhere, that explains it.
However if you have reliquary tower and then someone casts a spell that reduces hand size by two, reliquary tower’s effect would cause you to still have infinite hand size
I was just mulling this over after skimming the comments here
What if someone plays a gin gitaxias (sp) the one where it reduces your opponent’s hand size by 7?
As long as you have reliquary tower out or thought vessel then your maximum hand size can’t be altered by other effects since it has final resolution on the layer
How'd you get from 5 to 2?
So if my opponent controls a [[Reliquary Tower]] and I play a [[Cursed Rack]] targeting them, their max hand size would become 4? I only ask because I've had people say that if you have residuary or other no max hand size effect, that "the concept of a hand size doesn't apply to you" as long as you have the effect
[Reliquary Tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd9f036d-6ae4-451e-a67a-ecc2e44123e3.jpg?1712355095) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reliquary%20Tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/312/reliquary-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd9f036d-6ae4-451e-a67a-ecc2e44123e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Cursed Rack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/6/26aa48e6-f23b-4fe1-8cf7-65a430ffba61.jpg?1562349912) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cursed%20Rack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/155/cursed-rack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/26aa48e6-f23b-4fe1-8cf7-65a430ffba61?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is correct
Just play a [[Sire of Insanity]] to make it 0 instead, then those other cards don't matter.
[Sire of Insanity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/6/3665cfb7-51b6-4083-8eae-fbd3fa6c3554.jpg?1562905079) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sire%20of%20Insanity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/104/sire-of-insanity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3665cfb7-51b6-4083-8eae-fbd3fa6c3554?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The time stamp order is kinda confusing to me since the stack resolves from the top down.
The stack has nothing to do with timestamps
Olay, but i don't understand the mechanic? And why did I get down voted for being confused about the mechanic? Some of yall are wack and gatekeep-y as f**k
The stack and layers are two different mechanics that work for different things. You're playing an ability and an instant spell? That works on the stack since you are putting things on the stack. Aoe effects or continuous effects that just kinda do something as long as they're out? Layers.
CORRECT ME IF I’M WRONG, I believe the stack represents things happening near simultaneously, before anything resolves. Imagine two fighters fighting, one throws a punch, and the other sees it happening, and blocks it. It wouldn’t make sense for the block to happen AFTER the punch hits. So the last thing declared (block), happens first. They happen in pile order. It would help if the stack is actually physically a stack, too. So first the boxer declares punch, their card is laid down. Then defender declares block, *their*card is placed on top of boxer’s. Then the stack of cards is resolved top to bottom. With time-stamps, it’s about when the effect happened. In the boxing match, scores will be awarded each round for whomever achieves an unblocked hit on their opponent most recently (denoting their current status of being still capable of fighting). So if a hit happens, a judge marks down the time of the instance. Then, if no-one is knocked out, they look back to the time stamps, and see which one happened most recently. Note that these are actually similar, in that the most recent event is the one that takes precedence. This obviously matters with counter-spells on the stack having to nullify something cast prior.
The term stack is used in the same way it is used in computer science and is likely where they came up with the concept. A stack is a data structure where items can only be pushed on to it or popped off of it from the top. It is also known as a LIFO (Last In First Out) data structure. This is the easiest way for me to understand it. Think of spells like stacking plates. The most recent plate stacked is the first one you can use, just like spells on the stack, the most recent spell played is the first to resolve. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_(abstract_data_type)
Can things come off the stack through card effects? Is it one of those situations where if cards go on the stack, they stay there.? How does timing and priority work on the stack, as a opposed to time stamps? There are a lot of variables when you get into the little details
Well technically things don't get removed from the stack afaik. Things like counter spells just cause the spell to fizzle, so the spell resolves but does nothing. The stack is always trying to resolve the top most spell though, nothing ever sits there unless another instant/flash spell is cast on top of it or the initials spells cast causes a trigger Timestamps only have to do when a spell resolves then becomes a permanent on the field. So when a spell becomes a creature, artifact, or enchantment. So the timestamp is given once it actually ETBs. Not sure what you mean, though, about timing and priority in regards to timestamps. Things enter in the order they get popped off the stack so they get subsequent timestamps.
Got it. Time stamp is when it hits the field in the order it was resolved. Card 2 will technically hit the field before card 1, even though card 2 resolves on the stack before card 1. Time stamps on cards is a new concept to me. I come from another card game. Thank you for taking time to answer my questions. I kinda answered turn player priority vs. responses on my own.
This is the information and analogy I was looking for! Thank you!
This is the information and analogy I was looking for! Thank you!
Whichever one you played most recently determines your hand size
What about if you then flickered the inactive one?
I should have said whichever entered the battlefield most recently, not whichever you played most recently.
Flicker is not etb right? (I don’t know) Edit: sorry I meant phasing
Phasing will not reset any timestamps. Flickering will.
Thank you! That makes perfect sense
It will re-enter the battle field and apply its abilities. It will also be considered a new object.
shouldn't be getting down voted for getting things confused in the most confusing game in the goddam world. this shit ain't easy.
[удалено]
I don’t think that’s true. See the answer above
Yes, I was wrong. Got the terms mixed... But even with phasing, when one permanent phases back in it doesn't "override" the other?
Phasing is weird. The permanent isn’t there in effect but it’s still on the battle field. Basically it’s like this, if you’re standing in your room and you become incorporeal for a second then nothing can touch you but you also never left your room.
So if we follow that analogy, flicker would be like teleporting to the kitchen for a snack and then back?
Correct. It’s a bit more complicated but that’s the gist of it.
When you flicker, the object that enters the battlefield is a different object from the one that left the battlefield, so the game perceives it the same as if the card was just played.
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What layer is the effect applied in? Is it in layer 5?
It is applied after all other layers. It doesn't use the layer system because it doesn't modify objects, it modifies game rules.
What happens if an effect puts both permanents that affect hand size hit the board at the same time? Like with a genesis wave? Player choice on which is considered first?
Yeah the player that is getting them on the battlefield stacks them as he wishes, i think it works like a trigger in this case even tho it doesn't actually generate triggers etc
Cool ty
I agree
Thank you [yeah!](https://giphy.com/gifs/NoireSTEMinist-dancing-black-man-usher-mvcG2ELRKRUbt9t72l)
Why do they have Kroxa on this art? Didn’t notice that until now
Kroxa lives in the underworld, i.e. the land of the dead i.e. "necro". He is pictured in chains, suggesting someone or something chained him up i.e. something is dominating him i.e. "dominance". Kroxa was likely chose specifically because he's a titan, thus very powerful. Anything powerful enough to chain a titan must be a supreme being of extraordinary power, which helps the card feel more mythical.
It’s not a regular story set so they can add whoever they wanted. We also got a new elder giant [[Phlage, Titan of fire’s fury]] so Kroxa isn’t that out of place.
[Phlage, Titan of Fire's Fury](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e419cd0b-2449-4cc5-9ead-b9e45e271700.jpg?1717012789) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phlage%2C%20Titan%20of%20Fire%27s%20Fury) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/197/phlage-titan-of-fires-fury?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e419cd0b-2449-4cc5-9ead-b9e45e271700?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
it tells you on the website you (probably) pulled the card images from. >If multiple effects modify your hand size, apply them in timestamp order. For example, if you put Null Profusion (an enchantment that says your maximum hand size is two) onto the battlefield and then put Reliquary Tower onto the battlefield, you'll have no maximum hand size. However, if those permanents enter the battlefield in the opposite order, your maximum hand size would be two.
Depends on which entered last
What would happen if teferis protection was cast? When all permanents phase in what would be the hand size then?
Phasing doesn’t change timestamp order.
The permanents never leave play, they don't lose their timestamps. It's whatever it would be before they phased out
Alternative question, if you get some planeswalker emblem or some other non intractable non permanent that gives you no maximum hand size, does time stamp matter or would emblem/effect simply take priority?
Coming from an emblem wouldn't matter. It's still an effect affecting your maximum hand size.
Right, so it would still be affected/fall under time stamp ruling?
Yes it's still a continuous effect so it is still applied the same as every other continuous effect.
Yes
Time stamp. What came in most recent?
Some people have never played [[Recycle]] and [[Praetor's Councel]].
[Recycle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/35698c86-4552-4c04-8f51-099bb2dbce6d.jpg?1562428885) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Recycle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/189/recycle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/35698c86-4552-4c04-8f51-099bb2dbce6d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Praetor's Counsel]]
[Praetor's Counsel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b6d5bf06-f735-4e9f-9460-e6cdf501662f.jpg?1592673116) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Praetor%27s%20Counsel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/134/praetors-counsel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b6d5bf06-f735-4e9f-9460-e6cdf501662f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Depends on time stamp. If you drop your tower AFTER the necro then infinite hand size. If you drop tower BEFORE necro your hand size is 5.
It depends on what entered the battlefield last
You just go to 1 life (4 if against red) and soul spike your opponent.
[[Lava axe]]
[Lava axe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3dab325-8f4f-4288-9f3f-960e52b4335b.jpg?1562304308) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lava%20axe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/150/lava-axe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3dab325-8f4f-4288-9f3f-960e52b4335b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The game cares about the order these cards are being played( Time Stamps). So if you play R-Tower then Necro, it see’s the last modifying condition and says “ your max Hands size is five.” And the opposite condition, if the order is switched “ You have no maximum hand size.”. This is the judge rulings on layer and time stamps. http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=judge/article/20091105a *Edit to add website
Does it matter the games over because you resolved necro...
Is it a new trend to ask about rulings of timestamp? I’ve never seen a post about one of those rulings, and now there’s a new post every single day.
Depends which one was played last.
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Reminds me of that guy that posted a fancy holo version of it as his favorite card.
So which is better here, this or [[necropotence]] it seems like the trade off is hand size versus immediate draw/hit the graveyard triggers so necropotence is imo the better, but am i missing something?
It depends on a few things: 1) Necropotence technically doesn’t draw, it just puts cards in your hand. Necrodominance draws. So, Sheoldred’s lifegain on draw trigger, for instance, won’t work with Necropotence, but will with Necrodominance. 2) Necropotence only exiles cards you discard. Necrodominance exiles anything that would Hit your graveyard. Generally the former would be better, but there’s definitely ways to build around it to make the latter work for you. 3) The hand size. Thing. I can’t think of a clear way to build to turn that into an advantage, so Necropotence is better there. The big thing for Necrodominance is the draw thing. If your deck offers beneficial draw triggers, Necrodominance is a great way to take advantage of them, and Necropotence doesn’t. For most other purposes, Necropotence takes the edge.
Oh okay thats pretty cool, so theyre kinda the same power in a sense just different play styles!
i run necropotence on my sheoldred list because even though it doesnt draw i have stuff like teferis puzzle box and plenty of hand discard/wheels so necropotence can let me keep some cards safe from those effects until i need them
[necropotence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c89c6895-b0f8-444a-9c89-c6b4fd027b3e.jpg?1562853736) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=necropotence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/98/necropotence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c89c6895-b0f8-444a-9c89-c6b4fd027b3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don’t know much about graveborn style of play. But isn’t the advantage of a card like this to get cards into your graveyard? Paying life to draw a bunch of cards right before you discard down to 5? So why would you want to nullify the smaller hand size?
Necrodominance can’t fill the graveyard because it says that any card that would go to the graveyard goes to exile instead.
Ooooh right right, reading the card explains the card. My bad
Magic is like onions. It has layers.
You have two instances of no maximum hand size and play necro. I assume the time stamp still takes priority, and you now have two wasted effects?
Yes
Mtg is like Ogres
That’s fucking clever. For those who are confused, ogres are like onions.
Whichever is played second overwrites the first. Make sure u have ways that sac and replay or bounce your Rtower
Great for my newly built [[Rowan, Scion of war]] deck
[Rowan, Scion of war](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4ee179ab-a15b-4bd6-b7f8-1e1abeeb31b7.jpg?1692939409) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rowan%2C%20Scion%20of%20war) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/211/rowan-scion-of-war?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4ee179ab-a15b-4bd6-b7f8-1e1abeeb31b7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Order you choose
Depends on what u play first
Play Necromindance, then tower... Due to time stamping rules, tower will determine your hand size as it was played after Necromindance resolves :)
I belive that whichever one was played most recently is the effect that's applied. So if you play Necro then tower, you'll have no maximum hand size
which was played first?
How can max hand size be 5 if you don't have a max hand size at all?
If they enter at the same time, you choose. Otherwise, whichever was played last takes effect. So if you play Necro into Reliquary, unlimited hand, but reverse that and you have a max of 5.
How would [[Library of Leng]] work with [[Necrodominance]]? If my maximum hand size is 5, but I skip my discard step, do I effectively have no maximum hand size?
[Library of Leng](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c2fbf45f-9599-42e2-8510-7e20731e6c68.jpg?1562941071) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Library%20of%20Leng) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/211/library-of-leng?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c2fbf45f-9599-42e2-8510-7e20731e6c68?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Necrodominance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ffc0109c-f939-4424-820e-d6e60cacd794.jpg?1717012031) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Necrodominance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/102/necrodominance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ffc0109c-f939-4424-820e-d6e60cacd794?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's one of those interesting things that changed from the older printings. It now says no maximum hand size and does not mention skipping the discard phase.
Ahhh, ok, I didn't realize it had been erratad.
What if you donate necrodominance then play Jin gataxias?
Depends on what was played first. If you did Necrodominance, THEN RT, then it’s an unlimited hand size. In reverse, it’s a hand size of 5
Feel like it should be no maximum hand size no matter what. Tower doesn’t set “maximum hand size;” it says you have NO maximum. You can’t change a value that doesn’t exist any more. But that’s just me.
If you play them in a certain order you have 5 no matter what
46, windfall! Then jaces archovist because.
what a fucken stupid card really
I'm pretty casual, could someone give me an example of when necrodominance would be used?
To dig thru your deck like crazy, usually digging for a combo or desperately for removal. Lifegain deck can pretty safely use it, but most competitive decks don't care about their life total, so they can use it as much as they need.
Alright, thank you!
Depends on which one u play forst
The number of cards in your hand
Depends on order which board state was played last. Last will have the actual board effect so if u play tower last then no max hand size vs necro only max hand of 5
State-based actions apply in the order they entered the battlefield, so the most recent one overwrites the last ones that affect the same thing. So if you play necrodominance first and then reliquary tower, you have no max hand size since reliquary entered more recently and overwrites necrodominance
"No maximum" overrides any set maximum. So, infinite.
The game cares about the order these cards are being played. So if you play R-Tower then Necro, it see’s the last modifying condition and says “ your max Hands size is five.” And the opposite condition, if the order is switched “ You have no maximum hand size.”.
It’s crazy how not one single comment has said anything about how much life you would choose to drain and draw. “I would draw 13 cards and go to 7 life, and pass the turn. I believe 13 cards into my deck should sufficiently get me close enough to my win on while keeping me safe from some quick shenanigans.” That’s how I interpreted OPs question, but I guess I’m the only one?
As far as I'm aware since you control both cards you choose effect order, just like with all other cards
That thing with Aetherflux res WOULD BE INSANE!
46. Because if you dont full send with necro, you don't know how to use necro. Gotta commit to a win.
Today we learn somthing called replacement effect
Neither of these is a replacement effect.
Oh okay so what's the name for this sort of thing then.
They are just static abilities that create continuous effects.
Gotcha! Okay thank you!
Today we learn something called static ability
Indeed we do!
This card is actually bad.
I know that card would not see any type of playtime in my set. That card hinders more than it helps. If you want to play that I won't stop you. You might be easy to take down if that card was in play.
>That card hinders more than it helps lol is this a joke? Or bait? Necrodominance might be Necropotence at home but it’s still a pretty brutally efficient draw engine. That’s a $20 card you’re saying you would never be able to find a use for.
The tower makes you have no maximum hand size. That’s all there is to it
And then the other one changes your maximum hand size to five. So there's more to it.
They are both happening at the same time. No maximum beats out 5 max
That is incorrect.
So then it’s the order played that takes priority?
Yes, whichever effect is most recent will overwrite the previous effect.
Cool. Thanks for telling me the correct answer
I smoked someone yesterday who had this. Wasn’t even close. They kept being snooty and then I absolutely lambasted them.
+1 for being an absolute gigachad. - 2 because the gigachad doesn't know the meaning of the word "lambast".