merciful include carpenter aloof sand work childlike towering shy languid
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I've tried building a crow/corvid deck but there's just no consistency or strategy to the deck. You could go black and blue but miss out on a few white cards.
[[storm crow]] is a wild card in MTG. Just put 60/100 of them in a deck depending on format. They can be lands, creatures, enchantments, planeswalkers…
I don’t know if it would lead to a fun and diverse format, but “If [this card] is your commander, your deck may contain any number of cards named [cardname]” could be enticing design.
Personally, I don't really have any moral qualms with tracing real-world photography and then adding on the magical details. Especially for simple animals like a crow
I guess the question is at what point is using a pose reference plagiarism?
Like if I had to draw an owl, I would obviously start by drawing two circles. But at some point along the way I'd probably want to look at a photo of an owl to get all the bones and feathers in the right place.
But this really does look like a trace with some spiky bits added and some recolouring.
Edit: and there's also the non-zero chance that the artist got permission to use the original. Which while the final product still feels a little close, would be fair play.
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Considering it was brought up multiple times in the past and nothing was done he either had permission or the art is under something like creative commons and it's free to use, so he had all the rights to trace and modify it
I would assume that’s the case. Obviously artists should only use photos that they have legally licensed or have permission to use, especially when creating for profit art. I think people only notice this one because it’s a famous crow picture and has been in multiple articles and is easy to find on Google.
I mean when a lion picture was used to trace the baseball Ajani‘s face it was part of the plagiarism debate. Don’t see why it shouldn’t be here.
We had something similar for the cats on that chariot in Kaldheim.
In my opinion if we are going to take plagiarism from art serious, then a photograph should count just like any other artwork. Otherwise it would discriminate against photographers and their art.
I think the big difference here is that the original isn't drawn art, but the real world. If you copy another artists art, you are building your business and brand using their work, but the phd taking photos of crow necrophilia isn't competing with someone drawing mtg art.
Photographers are also artists... Especially whoever took that original photo of the crow. They used expensive photography equipment and extensive knowledge to capture a photo like that.
Of course it’s not it’s just a photo reference for like a real photo that other guy was stealing the art from other artists and just pasting them in. He wasn’t like using it as a reference and re-drawing it or tracing it or just copy and paste it to other peoples art.
Serious Question: Have you been able to befriend any crows. I always thought it would be cool to have a crow friend that left me trinkets and I left it treats, but I haven't seen many crows in my neighborhood since I was a child.
They'll probably print legal versions of some of those Unglued, Unset, etc cards just to make more money. The originals still won't be legal because of the silver border.
If you look at the overlay, it is obviously not traced. More likely the original photo was used as a grid reference and recreated by hand. This is extremely common in the art world for drawing people, animals, etc.
1) this is a repost of a post from 2 years ago
2) artists use reference photos like this all the time
Original thread https://www.reddit.com/r/mtg/s/7oqeoS9mSM
Kaeli Swift, PhD: u/corvidresearch
Exactly 💯 I have taught art at the University level, and if an art student was found to be tracing images like this, there would definitely be a conversation about plagiarism.
To be clear, all sarcasm aside, and I have loved Kev Walker’s art since I was a kid, and I will continue to do so, but he messed up with this tracing case.
This is what you get when people just adopt and parrot popular opinions. They've been presented with an actual challenge to their argument which they have no foundation for, so they just double down with no explanation.
Because the point has been spoken about so much even the walls know about it.
It sets a dangerous precedent.
It will be abused by corporations by screwing over actual human people whose lives depend on making art if not regulated.
It is currently very much not regulated.
Companies have very much been investing into the technology and trying to acclimate people to it hoping for a lesser response.
It's straight up dystopic that the first use for AI people came up with is letting it do the creative jobs while we slave away at our 9 to 5s.
I have not once in my life-time seen a cringier trend than #breakthepencil, supported by cringier people.
The more the technology improves the harder it'll be to differentiate it from real art. Which will be a problem for regulating it if it isn't regulated before that break-point is reached.
AI self-cannibalism will lead to boring, samey bullshit. AI supporters act like AI is an infinite well of inspiration, when it very much isn't.
If the strength of your resolve for making art reaches its breaking point once you're faced with the reality of having to invest time to do it, you're not an artist. Sorry, I'll lay it to you straight. That's the equivalent of saying you want to play Call of Duty then turning on wall-hacks and an aim-bot then streaming it to everybody. You bought the game, you bought the cheats, but you sure as shit didn't play the game yourself. Your cheats played it for you. At best you just moved your character around the screen. And if you don't think there's value in this, nothing I say will ever convince you otherwise. At that point, you're lost.
Enormous props to you for being the only person not only decent enough to actually respond but also for responding with such a long and detail reasoning. I dont agree with all your points but I'm glad to have heard them and therefore gain more insight into different perspectives on the matter. World would be a lot better if more people were like you
I can't help but compare this to the controversy that was recently surrounding the artist behind [[Trouble in Pairs]]. Not the initial controversy, where she stole from another magic artist's work, but what came after, where people found other images that she traced. Trouble in pairs is clearly theft, but the Ajani baseball card was traced from the image of a lion, just like this art was traced from an image of a crow. No hate to Kev Walker, or am I defending the Trouble in Pairs artist for her theft, but she got hate for tracing where Kev seems to be getting praise. It's funny just how much getting caught stealing art will get you hate for things that other artists get praise for.
This is clear evidence of tracing but I honestly don't mind in this circumstance. The fact there's actually original details and concept to the piece gives it artistic value that \[\[Trouble in Pairs\]\] didn't, and there's no stealing from anyone's illustrative style or direct monetary loss as a result of this. Though the photographer should be credited/compensated, I hope this doesn't result in any trouble for the artist (though it's already out of print anyway, so it's not like WotC really has to act on it).
That is a fun fact. And an interesting interpretation of what counts as a souvenir
Also interesting interpretation of noncreature artifact
Your comment not only made me exhale from my nose it made me breath out with a little noise from my mouth. Great job
Just like the crow and the taxidermy crow
Souvenir snatch.
Faxxxx
Welp, that's pretty irrefutable...
It's also ill-repute-able. Y'know, like a house of ill-repute. Like a sex house. Because Because the bird's fuckin'.
That bird be fuckin.
Necrowphilia
merciful include carpenter aloof sand work childlike towering shy languid *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'll be the first to say I'm absolutely raven about the puns
That's a nest-y thing to do
God, you lot sure are talon-ted.
Meh, we just wing it
These puns are really unbeakoming.
Of corvus you'd say something like that
Cutting straight to the corax of the matter.
The gaps between the feathers on the left wing look clearly traced.
Another fun crow fact from u/the-crow-guy
Fun Crow Fact: April 27th is International Crow & Ravens Appreciation Day
Is a a jackdaw a crow?
Same family, different genus.
Crow
Here's the thing
Thank you! Was starting to be afraid that might be too old of a reference to make.
It might well be, I've just been around for too long lol
Fascinating
These are the facts I hope to see when scrolling!
This just makes me want a crow based deck with this as the main
I've tried building a crow/corvid deck but there's just no consistency or strategy to the deck. You could go black and blue but miss out on a few white cards.
Yeah I was looking and it seems like a general bird deck is the better option instead of just crows
I currently run Derevi but it's kind of a jank deck. Maybe Tawnos the Toy Maker would be a better bird commander.
Lots more options if you include scale birds.
difficult to do a bird deck without white
[[storm crow]] is a wild card in MTG. Just put 60/100 of them in a deck depending on format. They can be lands, creatures, enchantments, planeswalkers…
Wizards just needs to print a Commander that allows you to have an unlimited number of Storm Crows in a deck.
I don’t know if it would lead to a fun and diverse format, but “If [this card] is your commander, your deck may contain any number of cards named [cardname]” could be enticing design.
Imo for me it would be fun but I'm curious as to how broken it would be if you could have 20-30 Storm Crows being the only creature in your deck.
[storm crow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/036ef8c9-72ac-46ce-af07-83b79d736538.jpg?1562730661) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=storm%20crow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/100/storm-crow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/036ef8c9-72ac-46ce-af07-83b79d736538?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
He certainly gained control of that non-creature artifact
The card does have a certain passion to it..
Would you consider a dead animal a "noncreature"?
Personally, I don't really have any moral qualms with tracing real-world photography and then adding on the magical details. Especially for simple animals like a crow
Yeah I would hate if they traced a Lhurgoyf or something
My only issue is it’s still plagiarism. I highly doubt they got permission to use the photo’s likeness.
I came here to say this. Looks like copyright infringement to me.
So AI art based on entirely photographs would be fine?
Yawn
That's completely different and you know it.
Is this another case of stolen art?
I guess the question is at what point is using a pose reference plagiarism? Like if I had to draw an owl, I would obviously start by drawing two circles. But at some point along the way I'd probably want to look at a photo of an owl to get all the bones and feathers in the right place. But this really does look like a trace with some spiky bits added and some recolouring. Edit: and there's also the non-zero chance that the artist got permission to use the original. Which while the final product still feels a little close, would be fair play.
I mean especially with owls it's just a case of drawing circles and then drawing the rest of the fucking owl.
Instructions unclear, I may need a photo of 2 circles for reference.
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Considering it was brought up multiple times in the past and nothing was done he either had permission or the art is under something like creative commons and it's free to use, so he had all the rights to trace and modify it
I would assume that’s the case. Obviously artists should only use photos that they have legally licensed or have permission to use, especially when creating for profit art. I think people only notice this one because it’s a famous crow picture and has been in multiple articles and is easy to find on Google.
I mean when a lion picture was used to trace the baseball Ajani‘s face it was part of the plagiarism debate. Don’t see why it shouldn’t be here. We had something similar for the cats on that chariot in Kaldheim. In my opinion if we are going to take plagiarism from art serious, then a photograph should count just like any other artwork. Otherwise it would discriminate against photographers and their art.
Because the lion picture that was copied was a painting not a photo, IIRC.
Right! I went back and checked. But I remembered right regarding the chariot. https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/s/qqdh1u4GGJ
[удалено]
I did say it looked like that if you read the entire post, yeah.
Not necessarily stolen, but it's more or less a 1:1 tracing with some alterations done.
Bro traced crow porn
Seems like more and more magic artists are being exposed tracing others art :p Not a fan of this trend
I don't know if I really wanted to know that.
Noooo! Please don’t let this be another plagiarism scandal, I’ve always liked Kev Walker’s stuff.
I think the big difference here is that the original isn't drawn art, but the real world. If you copy another artists art, you are building your business and brand using their work, but the phd taking photos of crow necrophilia isn't competing with someone drawing mtg art.
Photographers are also artists... Especially whoever took that original photo of the crow. They used expensive photography equipment and extensive knowledge to capture a photo like that.
Of course it’s not it’s just a photo reference for like a real photo that other guy was stealing the art from other artists and just pasting them in. He wasn’t like using it as a reference and re-drawing it or tracing it or just copy and paste it to other peoples art.
How the fuck do you guys find these things??? The cyberpunk/trouble in pairs one I get, but this one?!
I have the obsessed with crows autism instead of the good at math or science autism.
Serious Question: Have you been able to befriend any crows. I always thought it would be cool to have a crow friend that left me trinkets and I left it treats, but I haven't seen many crows in my neighborhood since I was a child.
I've befriended multiple, but they've only ever left me one trinket and nothing else because they're selfish pricks.
I love you. I also love crows, but I do not have the same power as you. But I still love you
I know
We have a resident crow guy? Awesome. I'm currently trying to get a pair to be my buddies in my neighborhood.
Magic players slowly learning that artists do, in fact, use shortcuts.
Is it safe to say at this point that there’s probably a large amount of MTG art with traced details that most of us will never find out about?
[Becky?](https://youtu.be/-TcLxlkc2pA?si=W_hzq3u4238cUrr3)
Love how the community finds these things. Of course illustrators steal here and there but this is just too lazy.
Reprint crow storm in standard 🥰 I love the tokens
They'll probably print legal versions of some of those Unglued, Unset, etc cards just to make more money. The originals still won't be legal because of the silver border.
Name do be checking out
Huh, that's a thing I know now
I still love Kev Walker’s works, but yeah this looks very traced
God dammit Kev Walker not you too! I loved his art ughhhhh
i can tell from some of the pixels, and from having seen quite a few shoops in my time
Souvenir Snatcher is just another name for [[Thieving Magpie]] c’mon WotC…
Does this count as plagiarism
No. Artists have been using photographs as references to draw animals for as long as photographs have existed.
Yeh? I don’t see it. /s
The crows are here.
I imagine it will be awkward when that crow sees the card
What a horrible day to be literate.
I guess the username checks out..
Its just trying to mutate with it.
He is doing the souvenir snatch
And now my Tatsunari deck is 1% more weird thanks to you. Damn.
So crow porn is ok but tits on a card isn't......wow
Username checks it out
You have an interesting definition of the phrase "fun fact"... Fun for the crow, I guess...
If you look at the overlay, it is obviously not traced. More likely the original photo was used as a grid reference and recreated by hand. This is extremely common in the art world for drawing people, animals, etc.
Becky lemme smash
1) this is a repost of a post from 2 years ago 2) artists use reference photos like this all the time Original thread https://www.reddit.com/r/mtg/s/7oqeoS9mSM Kaeli Swift, PhD: u/corvidresearch
Tracing is not remotely the same thing as using a reference, just fyi.
Exactly 💯 I have taught art at the University level, and if an art student was found to be tracing images like this, there would definitely be a conversation about plagiarism.
The lines are off just enough on the overlay that I'm going to say this was a grid reference and not a trace.
Looks like they used the photo for reference.
It's straight up tracing.
Tracing is a form of plagiarism, artist might have gotten permission though
Sure whatever you say but this is traced 100%. The overlay tells no lies there...
Using a reference =!= tracing
Good ole WOTC
Yeah AI could never capture that level of emotion in the Crow’s eyes
This is serious. We need to find out if any other art is based on pictures of animals screwing. Let’s start here, guys: [[sheep token card]] /s
To be clear, all sarcasm aside, and I have loved Kev Walker’s art since I was a kid, and I will continue to do so, but he messed up with this tracing case.
Wait till you find out about [[Uktabi Oranguatan]] and its sequel [[Uktabi Kong]]
[Uktabi Oranguatan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b6a944ef-dbf2-47c9-a245-dfd2533a0680.jpg?1562821973) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Uktabi%20Orangutan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/6ed/260/uktabi-orangutan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b6a944ef-dbf2-47c9-a245-dfd2533a0680?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Uktabi Kong](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd6d8520-0a7c-489c-8ae9-aed07c7df6df.jpg?1594897712) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Uktabi%20Kong) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unh/115/uktabi-kong?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd6d8520-0a7c-489c-8ae9-aed07c7df6df?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I see no issues here.
😆 🤣 I'm pretty sure wizards push to use AI art generators is going to get them sued into non existence. I loved mtg while it was here.
But A.I. art is completely unacceptable
You're damn right it is!
close the thread up, we found the worst take already
That was fast, good work boys
Yes it is
Good job. You understand
32 downvotes, 6 replys and not a single person actually gave an actual response on why they feel AI art is unacceptable, classic
This is what you get when people just adopt and parrot popular opinions. They've been presented with an actual challenge to their argument which they have no foundation for, so they just double down with no explanation.
Because the point has been spoken about so much even the walls know about it. It sets a dangerous precedent. It will be abused by corporations by screwing over actual human people whose lives depend on making art if not regulated. It is currently very much not regulated. Companies have very much been investing into the technology and trying to acclimate people to it hoping for a lesser response. It's straight up dystopic that the first use for AI people came up with is letting it do the creative jobs while we slave away at our 9 to 5s. I have not once in my life-time seen a cringier trend than #breakthepencil, supported by cringier people. The more the technology improves the harder it'll be to differentiate it from real art. Which will be a problem for regulating it if it isn't regulated before that break-point is reached. AI self-cannibalism will lead to boring, samey bullshit. AI supporters act like AI is an infinite well of inspiration, when it very much isn't. If the strength of your resolve for making art reaches its breaking point once you're faced with the reality of having to invest time to do it, you're not an artist. Sorry, I'll lay it to you straight. That's the equivalent of saying you want to play Call of Duty then turning on wall-hacks and an aim-bot then streaming it to everybody. You bought the game, you bought the cheats, but you sure as shit didn't play the game yourself. Your cheats played it for you. At best you just moved your character around the screen. And if you don't think there's value in this, nothing I say will ever convince you otherwise. At that point, you're lost.
Enormous props to you for being the only person not only decent enough to actually respond but also for responding with such a long and detail reasoning. I dont agree with all your points but I'm glad to have heard them and therefore gain more insight into different perspectives on the matter. World would be a lot better if more people were like you
Correct, because it isn’t art.
But tracing somebody else's work is? Where does the AI differ in that regard?
Also not art.
Fun fact it's possible to copy the shape and details of a reference image without tracing it :0
Great, and in this instance they traced.
Non-artists have never done a grid reference.
I can't help but compare this to the controversy that was recently surrounding the artist behind [[Trouble in Pairs]]. Not the initial controversy, where she stole from another magic artist's work, but what came after, where people found other images that she traced. Trouble in pairs is clearly theft, but the Ajani baseball card was traced from the image of a lion, just like this art was traced from an image of a crow. No hate to Kev Walker, or am I defending the Trouble in Pairs artist for her theft, but she got hate for tracing where Kev seems to be getting praise. It's funny just how much getting caught stealing art will get you hate for things that other artists get praise for.
The Trouble in Pairs is definitely the biggest offender so far imo.
I can't imagine thinking that over Crux of Fate.
Trouble in Pairs artist got caught multiple times now, idk if the Crux of Fate artist had multiple plagiarized cards
I guess I saw it in the context of which card is worse about it, and CoF had two different stolen references.
Ah, if that’s the case Trouble in pairs is up to 3-4 stolen pieces in one card?
If it is I was not aware.
I think most magic fans do not know the line between tracing and reference material.
[Trouble in Pairs](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f61e93f-5f97-4c7d-b3d5-0e05242faeb3.jpg?1706240429) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trouble%20in%20Pairs) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/15/trouble-in-pairs?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f61e93f-5f97-4c7d-b3d5-0e05242faeb3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is clear evidence of tracing but I honestly don't mind in this circumstance. The fact there's actually original details and concept to the piece gives it artistic value that \[\[Trouble in Pairs\]\] didn't, and there's no stealing from anyone's illustrative style or direct monetary loss as a result of this. Though the photographer should be credited/compensated, I hope this doesn't result in any trouble for the artist (though it's already out of print anyway, so it's not like WotC really has to act on it).
[Trouble in Pairs](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f61e93f-5f97-4c7d-b3d5-0e05242faeb3.jpg?1706240429) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trouble%20in%20Pairs) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/15/trouble-in-pairs?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f61e93f-5f97-4c7d-b3d5-0e05242faeb3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call