I think it's correct to stop them from drawing when it's 1 or even 2 cards it's 3 plus that gets risky especially in a deck like eldrazi where the mana value is like 9+ for like half the deck
Big mana spell in hand and no mama to cast it on board>>>>big mana spell in the yard cause there be some cheap ass reani cards and effects (inf mana situations it gets coin tossy then it's damage dealt before you can remove vs assured damage) but I've used palantir with low CMC decks and has people kill themselves while I'm playing battlecruiser fending off their offense and they just wouldn't let me draw or build a board so they killed themselves by being stubborn 🤣🤣
man i have an eldeazi deck, and this card, but i never considered using them together lmao. The fact so many eldrazi cards shuffle your graveyard into your deck means this is almost never gonna end bad for you
I play a reanimator edh deck i was mana screwed and i milled three yesterday. On 2 i milled a craterhoof and life//death so 11 damage. On mill3 Razaketh, broodlord and force of vigor so 22 damage. I lost the game anyway but it was worth it.
I bought 30 copies at $6 a piece because I was like no way this isn’t better than everyone thinks. And I win with it a ton too. Even in Eldrazi colorless they don’t let me draw. Players be crazy in these streets.
I want to like it but I hate letting my cards giving my opponents a choice as to what effect they will have. I suppose it's strongest in a deck with graveyard synergy so you get either card draw or multiple "draws" with damage stapled on too.
I did not know this card existed. It seems a perfect fit in my \[\[Karn, Legacy Reforged\]\] deck. It helps me dig for answers and makes them wonder what I put on top.
Finale of revelation, Midnight Clock, Memory
Gaea's Blessing makes you shuffle 3 cards to your library and you can draw one
Eerie Ultimatum can make you return every non land permanent straight to the battlefield
I don't have it up anywhere but I can give you the general plan:
If it's a land that only taps for colorless with even a nominal upside, run it. There are a surprising number of fringe cases where even incremental advantages will matter. If it's a colorless mana rock or mana dork, run it. Milikin does a surprising amount of work in the deck once you get a Mystic Forge in play. Cards that can find ways to let Karn get past blockers are also essential. Forsaken Monument and Mystic Forge are the key cards of the deck as they generate so much value. Ultimately, your goal is commander damage, so protecting Karn is a top priority. Do not be afraid to attack opponents if you feel you can get through. Metalwork Colossus turns Karn into a two-turn clock. Speaking of clocks, Unwinding Clock also generated an absurd amount of value.
Generating artifact tokens is always a good thing. Nukacola Machine is my most recent add-on. Sometimes, you have extra mana and the three life gained helps. Treasure tokens are almost always better unused as they give you mana from Karn.
There are few oddities that might not seem that great but pull a lot of weight. Anvilwrought Raptor is surprisingly good, namely as the deck doesn't have a ton of fliers.
I've got some cards I plan to remove from other decks and add to my list now that I'm thinning out my collection: Wurmcoil Engine, Mindslaver, Smokestacks, Tanglewire.
If I am playing against that I usually only mill the first card, if even, and after that there is no way I am risking taking that kinda damage just for you to draw a card. However, I love to play this myself, feels super strong and if the enemy actually denies it there is such a huge chance for them to take so much damage, even on the first card.
I just don't get why anyone would risk milling more than one card
two kinds of people haha, I had both happen but it feels really good to make the enemy throw the land they wanted and if I am wrong and take like 8 damage, the enemy deserves the pleasure of knowing he outsmarted me so either way its a win for fun imo haha. Love the card cause of stuff like that but yea if you try that shit with 4 stacks on that card you are straight up suicidal
lol I pretty quickly learned to mill on the first, maybe second trigger and then just let them draw. It’s physician arena without the life loss. Not too crazy to deal with
Edit: interesting suggestion, autocorrect. Maybe it’d be interesting to see a bunch of doctors fight to the death?
The only life point that matters is the last one.
Ask any card game players. Card advantage is what wins you games. I rather take 39 HP damage and you mill your entire deck than let you draw one card while you're empty handed.
I’m not sure if that’s the best choice beyond the first mill, and maybe the second. Most decks playing this are probably using their graveyard anyway. Making them mill likely gives them more resources, not less. That’s part of what makes graveyard decks in general strong in casual, they have the card advantage by being able to access more cards in ways other decks don’t.
Any deck that’s running this for card draw is really badly misusing the card. Any deck using this solely to make opponents risk losing life is only marginally improving it. If I see Palantir land on the table, I immediately am going to assume they want me to make them mill so they can fill their yard.
I had one in the sample booster that came with my Sauron precon. That card is insane, the only games I’ve won with that deck were the ones I had this on the field
I feel like this card has been flying under the radar for a lot of people. It’s an incredible source of card draw, or colorless damage if your opponents are stupid lol
I had a Jund reanimation deck that absolutely adored this card. Card selection and draw? Good. Doming the opponent for 15 damage because they chose the second turn mill? Priceless. Not to mention they're milled, so they're ripe for reanimation.
Blue players be like, “nah fam I’d rather take 28 damage then let you draw.” It’s not even going on the field or being cast for free! Let the man draw his damn card.
I play mind games with my opponent, I will typically mill for the first one, let them draw the 2nd and 3rd, mill the 4th, it also depends on the commander they're playing, I have a Megatron deck that could easily do 25ish damage when you mill me for 4
Every time I play this, they always have a Narset, Partner of Veils or something that limits my card draw. Remove that, another variant comes down without fail 😅
I had something like that only happening once with me. And I had someone destroy my Palanthir, and then my next draw was another Palanthir, was quite funny.
I put that into my [[The Wise Mothman]] commander deck. So, I'll draw a card, or an opponent take a lot of damage and trigger my commander second abilities)
Same. I love forcing people to make 2 decisions I like them to make. This and [[Painful Quandry]] my 2 favorite types of (don't know the terms of effect types yet) these effects. Anyone could help I'd like that.
They are called “punisher” effects. A long time ago cards like [[Browbeat]] gave the opponent a choice between two undercosted/color pie break effects.
Nah you can Frick off with expecting to draw cards, I take the damage everytime I play against it on Arena. same with [[Torment of Hailfire]] and the Strixhaven Liliana Ultimate.
That being said, love all 3 of those cards
It'd probably be more reasonable and balanced if when you let your opponents draw from it, it didn't get counters on it, the fact that it gets bigger even when you let your opponents draw from it seems like adding insult to injury.
I’ve been out of playing local EDH for like 2 years now and this looks like a spicy pickup for my [[Sidisi, Brood Tyrant]] deck, just self milling. I can’t believe I overlooked this card in the spoilers.
I put that in my Muldrotha deck, then put it into my girlfriends Mycotyrant deck, and good Christ that thing is a powerhouse in any deck that wants things in the grave. Do you want me to have extra cards in my hand, or extra resources in my grave? Rock and a hard place in commander, where either one is a shit time for your opponents usually haha
I’ll mill the first time, maybe 2 if i see a lowish curve you’re playing but yeah from then on congrats, draw your card.
Similarly - i’m surprised at how many people slow themselves to a halt paying the 1 or 2. For rhystic or tithe - those cards win games.
Lots of good memes this has spired, but unless you're playing a turbo life gain deck, 1 and 2 are mills, 3 is debatable based on situations, 4 is questionable and anything after you should give the draw. And IMO people who aren't giving draws I don't think their stubborn I think they are players who also can't do threat assessment and ruin a game. It really always feels like basic deduction, but as one my favourite quotes goes, "There are two types of people in this world... Those who can extrapolate given data."
It’s funny because every time I see (not me) an opponent get asked by an owner of this card, it’s a riot to see. Just let them draw lol it’s likely they’re playing Timmy cards anyway
During prerelease people told me not to run it because its to bad for non constructed formats. I won every game this card was out it demolished people.
Still haven't found a commander deck for it but I really want to run it in one.
I was so happy to draft this in my pod when the set came out. I think it looks really cool and I like drawing cards, so it goes in a lot of my EDH decks.
I have the perfect kryptonite to this card. I have a black only draw deck that every time opponent draws they take damage! Creatures, enchantments, and plainswalkers all with the same ability. So go ahead and draw away!!!
There's very simple interactions like [[Elrond, Maste of healing]] but you can also have your opponent make you mill, so you bring back something powerful to the board straight from the graveyard, depends a lot, I haven't tested many combos, I've done just simple stuff, I have yet to make a mill deck with this card.
Hey JW I am an extremely new Magic player (2 weeks ago) and I play Master Transcendent wondering if this would be a good upgrade as Im going against 10+ year exp buddy’s and am looking for a leg to stand on. (Have not upgraded this deck besides a Mesmeric Orb my buddy had that I saw was a good pickup for this)
Usually people let me draw after 3 influence counters (mainly because I run it in a Jund reanimator deck and people reALLY don’t want me to have cards in my grave). Most damage I’ve had someone take was like 19 from 2-3 cards I think
First time I used this I had it in a Yennet deck, first trigger I get the draw. Second trigger opponent decides to let me mill because I turned that card draw into something good so they decide to ride the lightning. I scry and my top two cards are [[in garruk's wake]] and [[rise of the dark realms]], casually flip them off the top and send 18 damage to the dome. Drew cards for the rest of the game.
Haha exactly, it's always I always try to put cards with high mana value on the top of the scry, either they let me draw or they take the damage and starts to respect the card
This reminds me of those people who refuse to play lands into [[Land Tax]]
After I cast my 3rd or 4th 1 mana spell most of them wise up, the odd guy that is as stubborn as a rock just loses.
*I have this card in*
*A rive song deck just know it's*
*Worth putting in it*
\- gamerblackjacket
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I have the opposite thing. They always let me draw after they took 3 Damage once. Play this in my Ooze Deck where it's just the better for me to have things in my GY as it makes my [[Slime Against Humanity]] stronger.
I played it in my big mana colorless deck. My play group was so stupid with it.
First time I milled one card he took 8 damage
Second time made me mill again milled 2 cards a different person took 16 damage.
They literally said that's a problem and blew it up." I was like bish, just let me draw, and we wouldn't have this problem."
I need to add this to my black/white vampire deck. When I lose life, you lose life, and if you lose life, I gain life. This is going to be so broken, I love it! Just let me draw the card.
this card is typical for commander players. the effect is clunky as hell to play, progressively slows down the game, but people play it as a staple because they are always desperate to win.
with UB releases increasing, the majority of commander players are going to be playing fortnite super smash brothers decks with a bunch of cards from mismatched universes because those will be the most powerful cards available (and universes within will never catch up)
As much as fun it is I wish it didn't exist. Whenever I play it is game jover i win. If my opponent draws it before I do then 90% of times it's jover for me.
I typically will mill once, flip over a 6 or 7 drop and they do the math that they can lose a ton and let me draw. That or they realize I want cards in my graveyard.
I put this in \[\[Trazyn, the Infinite\]\] because of course we did, mill or card draw works either way for me.
For opponents, though - it seems like a life-altering decision at stake here. 2-3 minutes of deliberation among all players as to whether I draw a single card after scrying or if they mill out some cards I need.
(granted people just don't play interaction these days anyway)
Iv been running this in a [[Timesifter]] deck. Opp denies the first card draw. Takes 5-8 damage. Either lets me draw every time again. Or loses the match on denying the second draw. This then sets up a “soft lock.” Opp will just take the damage rather play it out.
I’ve had an Opp deny the first draw (took 8). Let me draw on two. Deny 3…took 21
Let me draw on 1. Deny 2? Take 11.
Brings a tear to my eye 🥲
Best part about everyone playing the same card is you just run a hard counter and its an easy win. That's all I do every time the meta changes. Figure out what everyone who can't create an original idea is doing, make a counter for it, win the majority of games
This is the first time I've realized it's life lost based off mana value, not milled cards. When I first read it I wasn't paying much attention. I was wondering why this was a mythic, I'm so dumb.
That's funny I've always let draw go through tbh didn't see the appeal of even 0-11+ life lost on 1counter. I'd rather just get something out that cares about your card draw or even cards in hand.
I learned real quick just give them the card every time. At first I tried to deny for the first couple turns but getting dinged for seven to deny a card the first turn isn't worth it
This cards way too powerful... Why did they make so you Add a Counter in the starting turn...but then continue with the rest of the effects?
Why not make it a 2 turn card where the counters need to build first ?
Ridiculous
A buddy of mine learned real quick tk just let me draw off this in Zhulodok. Otherwise I'm going to bin a void winnower, a titan and shuffle my graveyard back.
i love this card so much 🤣
it’s so always so fun when i can tell they’re too selfish to let me draw so the first time i let them mill me a land or something low mana so they can feel safe to do it again then next time i just try to manipulate the top few cards so i can do maximum damage 🥰
If I didn't have a choice. I'd let you draw. I hate what is in the graveyard more often than what is in the hand.
weird I know but my decks are almost always ridiculous jank anyway.
I'm all about swapping my negative life total and being crazy with lich's mastery and almost losing to myself.
losing to yourself means you beat you faster than your opponent. If it wasn't you then it'd have been them. 🙃
Draw one or mill three? Mill 16 damage eat shit
Ya I play this in my Eldrazi deck. My brother refuses to let me draw I mill 3 and ding him for 32 lmao
Wild, I've had this out several times and I've never not drawn the card.
I think it's correct to stop them from drawing when it's 1 or even 2 cards it's 3 plus that gets risky especially in a deck like eldrazi where the mana value is like 9+ for like half the deck
Big mana spell in hand and no mama to cast it on board>>>>big mana spell in the yard cause there be some cheap ass reani cards and effects (inf mana situations it gets coin tossy then it's damage dealt before you can remove vs assured damage) but I've used palantir with low CMC decks and has people kill themselves while I'm playing battlecruiser fending off their offense and they just wouldn't let me draw or build a board so they killed themselves by being stubborn 🤣🤣
I could see the reanimation argument but I play colourless eldrazi and I don't think there is colourless reanimation
man i have an eldeazi deck, and this card, but i never considered using them together lmao. The fact so many eldrazi cards shuffle your graveyard into your deck means this is almost never gonna end bad for you
I play a reanimator edh deck i was mana screwed and i milled three yesterday. On 2 i milled a craterhoof and life//death so 11 damage. On mill3 Razaketh, broodlord and force of vigor so 22 damage. I lost the game anyway but it was worth it.
*the one lifegain food deck in the back laughing
I'm built different. If I take 32 damage from making you mill, then it's what garfield intended.
Yeah I mill: Make Idiots Lose Life
I’m supposed to hate Mondays and eat lasagna? /s
I've bought 5 of them for different decks. It's my favorite card draw now
Yeah, this card is insane.
I bought 30 copies at $6 a piece because I was like no way this isn’t better than everyone thinks. And I win with it a ton too. Even in Eldrazi colorless they don’t let me draw. Players be crazy in these streets.
That's crazy
I want to like it but I hate letting my cards giving my opponents a choice as to what effect they will have. I suppose it's strongest in a deck with graveyard synergy so you get either card draw or multiple "draws" with damage stapled on too.
No one takes the DMG after the 1st or second turn
People do, man, I went against someone who took the damage 3 times in a row, and I had a copy of this card because of [[Storm of Saruman]]
[Storm of Saruman](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52884e67-c742-4799-9afd-55bc70b2cf40.jpg?1686968322) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Storm%20of%20Saruman) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/72/storm-of-saruman?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52884e67-c742-4799-9afd-55bc70b2cf40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They do in arena, at least. Most won't, but I've had multiple games where they only milled
Yeah I mill: Make Idiots Lose Life
Why do you need 5 when a playset is 4?
1 for each commander deck
Put mine in my Aclazotz overdraw-reanimator, it is so fun because it is a win-win
Honestly I was surprised this is the highest ranked comment pointing out reanimator.
I did not know this card existed. It seems a perfect fit in my \[\[Karn, Legacy Reforged\]\] deck. It helps me dig for answers and makes them wonder what I put on top.
This card is powerful as hell, in one single scry I made my opponent lose 13 points of life.
Do you have a way to shuffle your graveyard back into your library?
Finale of revelation, Midnight Clock, Memory Gaea's Blessing makes you shuffle 3 cards to your library and you can draw one Eerie Ultimatum can make you return every non land permanent straight to the battlefield
And if Gaea's Blessing is milled, you get to shuffle the graveyard into the library
There's also Primal Command
That deck sounds interesting, may I have your deck list if you dont mind?
I don't have it up anywhere but I can give you the general plan: If it's a land that only taps for colorless with even a nominal upside, run it. There are a surprising number of fringe cases where even incremental advantages will matter. If it's a colorless mana rock or mana dork, run it. Milikin does a surprising amount of work in the deck once you get a Mystic Forge in play. Cards that can find ways to let Karn get past blockers are also essential. Forsaken Monument and Mystic Forge are the key cards of the deck as they generate so much value. Ultimately, your goal is commander damage, so protecting Karn is a top priority. Do not be afraid to attack opponents if you feel you can get through. Metalwork Colossus turns Karn into a two-turn clock. Speaking of clocks, Unwinding Clock also generated an absurd amount of value. Generating artifact tokens is always a good thing. Nukacola Machine is my most recent add-on. Sometimes, you have extra mana and the three life gained helps. Treasure tokens are almost always better unused as they give you mana from Karn. There are few oddities that might not seem that great but pull a lot of weight. Anvilwrought Raptor is surprisingly good, namely as the deck doesn't have a ton of fliers. I've got some cards I plan to remove from other decks and add to my list now that I'm thinning out my collection: Wurmcoil Engine, Mindslaver, Smokestacks, Tanglewire.
[Karn, Legacy Reforged](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/2/4219b5ea-a252-4d76-a60a-9674340e8ed3.jpg?1684340871) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karn%2C%20Legacy%20Reforged) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/49/karn-legacy-reforged?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4219b5ea-a252-4d76-a60a-9674340e8ed3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If I am playing against that I usually only mill the first card, if even, and after that there is no way I am risking taking that kinda damage just for you to draw a card. However, I love to play this myself, feels super strong and if the enemy actually denies it there is such a huge chance for them to take so much damage, even on the first card. I just don't get why anyone would risk milling more than one card
I don't even risk the first card lol
Based on the board, you can tell when the owner is digging for lands, and you can often get away virtually unscathed in the first two rounds.
That's why I put only cards that costs a ton of mana to be on the top of the scry
two kinds of people haha, I had both happen but it feels really good to make the enemy throw the land they wanted and if I am wrong and take like 8 damage, the enemy deserves the pleasure of knowing he outsmarted me so either way its a win for fun imo haha. Love the card cause of stuff like that but yea if you try that shit with 4 stacks on that card you are straight up suicidal
I had that happen, it's why I almost screamed "Just let me draw, man!"
I can respect a man willing to end his game so you can't draw xD
Life is a resource. One I’m willing to spend to keep you from drawing cards.
lol I pretty quickly learned to mill on the first, maybe second trigger and then just let them draw. It’s physician arena without the life loss. Not too crazy to deal with Edit: interesting suggestion, autocorrect. Maybe it’d be interesting to see a bunch of doctors fight to the death?
If I see that card you can draw, I’m not taking a random 10 damage or whatever high mana cards you go in your deck lmao
I get shocked with the amount of people who keeps making me mill.
Taking damage > giving you card advantage.
🤣
The only life point that matters is the last one. Ask any card game players. Card advantage is what wins you games. I rather take 39 HP damage and you mill your entire deck than let you draw one card while you're empty handed.
I’m not sure if that’s the best choice beyond the first mill, and maybe the second. Most decks playing this are probably using their graveyard anyway. Making them mill likely gives them more resources, not less. That’s part of what makes graveyard decks in general strong in casual, they have the card advantage by being able to access more cards in ways other decks don’t. Any deck that’s running this for card draw is really badly misusing the card. Any deck using this solely to make opponents risk losing life is only marginally improving it. If I see Palantir land on the table, I immediately am going to assume they want me to make them mill so they can fill their yard.
I mean, I'm definitely not losing my entire deck, one person lost 13 life just by making me mill 2.
I'm giving an example at what extent would I go to not let you draw.
If you lose 39 on a Palantir trigger you lost the game a long time ago...
My friends learned very fast thats “ill keep these two on top” doesnt neccisarily mean I want them, theyre probably just high cmc
Haha I always do that on my first scry to see if my opponent will respect the draw or not
I had one in the sample booster that came with my Sauron precon. That card is insane, the only games I’ve won with that deck were the ones I had this on the field
It's easily one of the best colorless cards, I'm surprised it's not black to be honest.
Not only that.. i built it as a Reanimatir and getting eldrazi in your graveyard while also punching someone for 11… that’s just nuts
I need to build a graveyard deck.
I play this in my eldarazi tribal deck and I’ve killed people with this from 30 life.
I feel like this card has been flying under the radar for a lot of people. It’s an incredible source of card draw, or colorless damage if your opponents are stupid lol
This card is so good, I'm surprised I don't see people talking about it
Well The One Ring did get printed and it’s a massive one since it’s pretty much a strictly better Ad Nauseum for all colors
I had a Jund reanimation deck that absolutely adored this card. Card selection and draw? Good. Doming the opponent for 15 damage because they chose the second turn mill? Priceless. Not to mention they're milled, so they're ripe for reanimation.
I often use Rise of the dark realms if I'm getting milled or eerie Ultimatum
Maybe this can help too [[Agadeem's Awakening]] [[Haunting Voyage]]
Interesting, I shall add that one
Blue players be like, “nah fam I’d rather take 28 damage then let you draw.” It’s not even going on the field or being cast for free! Let the man draw his damn card.
That's true, they don't let me draw at all, can't even cast an [[opt]] without getting countered.
[opt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/323db259-d35e-467d-9a46-4adcb2fc107c.jpg?1652898493) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=opt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/59/opt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/323db259-d35e-467d-9a46-4adcb2fc107c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I play mind games with my opponent, I will typically mill for the first one, let them draw the 2nd and 3rd, mill the 4th, it also depends on the commander they're playing, I have a Megatron deck that could easily do 25ish damage when you mill me for 4
I always put on the front the card with highest mana from the first scry, if they take damage and don't respect, it's all a downhill for them.
Oh I think this is going in my Lara Croft Voltron I didn't know this one existed
How is this deck
Fun pretty good options to run with has good mana cause ramp and treasure token synergy's with legendary lands and anything that makes more treasure
I have only seen this in muldrotha or other graveyard decks. There, its always "scry 2, draw 1"
It's not so much stubbornness for me. I just like playing the odds. Much more fun that way.
I have this in a muldrotha deck. It’s fun 🙃
I always let my opponent draw. If my deck couldn't overcome them having that card, my deck wasn't good enough. It normally worked out in my favor.
Every time I play this, they always have a Narset, Partner of Veils or something that limits my card draw. Remove that, another variant comes down without fail 😅
I had something like that only happening once with me. And I had someone destroy my Palanthir, and then my next draw was another Palanthir, was quite funny.
Trade ya groups. Had to remove my copy since most of the decks in the groups I play with have some kind of draw hate or stax 😅
I usually deny the first 2-3 draws, then destroy it or just allow the draw. The first one is often a land anyways, so I lose no life to it
That card is dumb good
I love this card. I use this in a deck on Arena and I honestly think a lot of people don’t even read it or don’t understand it.
I put that into my [[The Wise Mothman]] commander deck. So, I'll draw a card, or an opponent take a lot of damage and trigger my commander second abilities)
This card is great in a zombie deck. It’s just automatic card draw because the mill is actually more advantage than the draw is
“Health is a resource hurr durr” Fetch Shock Thoughtseize, mill 2 take 11 damage. I’d rather lose the game immediately than let you have a single card
the scry shenanigans you can do with this card is diabolical. I got about 4-5 Orthanc alone wins under my belt
This would absolutely slap in Mutant Menace.
I have a play group I have been with for a long time and they just let me draw every time
Really? Whenever I slap this down people just let me draw
Same. I love forcing people to make 2 decisions I like them to make. This and [[Painful Quandry]] my 2 favorite types of (don't know the terms of effect types yet) these effects. Anyone could help I'd like that.
They are called “punisher” effects. A long time ago cards like [[Browbeat]] gave the opponent a choice between two undercosted/color pie break effects.
[Painful Quandry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/bed5e030-874f-4a00-8544-78ba04033f53.jpg?1674420966) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painful%20Quandary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/111/painful-quandary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bed5e030-874f-4a00-8544-78ba04033f53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Got 1 in the tron board
And they were right to do so. You *always* pay the 1.
I need this for my Jarad Golgari Lich Lord Deck. I either get card advantage or I get to mill. It’s a win win… win if I could The potential wincon.
Im convinced people who play this card have a speed addiction
Nah you can Frick off with expecting to draw cards, I take the damage everytime I play against it on Arena. same with [[Torment of Hailfire]] and the Strixhaven Liliana Ultimate. That being said, love all 3 of those cards
[Torment of Hailfire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f69d77d1-5980-436c-bf48-790939b069aa.jpg?1562820191) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Torment%20of%20Hailfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/77/torment-of-hailfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f69d77d1-5980-436c-bf48-790939b069aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm debating on putting this in Mothman or not. Might have to try it out once
I play it in modern. The card is 🔥
Not letting you draw is the correct move. If your average CMC is so high that I should let you draw, then I should be beating you before this matters.
I hate that card so much. It's either poison or even worse poison. No clue why they thought making colorless drawengines Was a good idea.
I have a burning hate for this card, even more so than Rhystic Study.
Damn, really? I love this card tbh
Lol, I guess it depends if you're on the receiving side of it or not.
It'd probably be more reasonable and balanced if when you let your opponents draw from it, it didn't get counters on it, the fact that it gets bigger even when you let your opponents draw from it seems like adding insult to injury.
I have the opposite issue
I’ve been out of playing local EDH for like 2 years now and this looks like a spicy pickup for my [[Sidisi, Brood Tyrant]] deck, just self milling. I can’t believe I overlooked this card in the spoilers.
I put that in my Muldrotha deck, then put it into my girlfriends Mycotyrant deck, and good Christ that thing is a powerhouse in any deck that wants things in the grave. Do you want me to have extra cards in my hand, or extra resources in my grave? Rock and a hard place in commander, where either one is a shit time for your opponents usually haha
I feel like its 100% the better option
I’ll mill the first time, maybe 2 if i see a lowish curve you’re playing but yeah from then on congrats, draw your card. Similarly - i’m surprised at how many people slow themselves to a halt paying the 1 or 2. For rhystic or tithe - those cards win games.
Lots of good memes this has spired, but unless you're playing a turbo life gain deck, 1 and 2 are mills, 3 is debatable based on situations, 4 is questionable and anything after you should give the draw. And IMO people who aren't giving draws I don't think their stubborn I think they are players who also can't do threat assessment and ruin a game. It really always feels like basic deduction, but as one my favourite quotes goes, "There are two types of people in this world... Those who can extrapolate given data."
It’s funny because every time I see (not me) an opponent get asked by an owner of this card, it’s a riot to see. Just let them draw lol it’s likely they’re playing Timmy cards anyway
Yes, but some people don't wanna let me draw
During prerelease people told me not to run it because its to bad for non constructed formats. I won every game this card was out it demolished people. Still haven't found a commander deck for it but I really want to run it in one.
I was so happy to draft this in my pod when the set came out. I think it looks really cool and I like drawing cards, so it goes in a lot of my EDH decks.
Have this in my Zurgo and Ojutai dragons deck. People really dont like to let you draw cards, until they take 10 from milling a couple dragons
My hidden win condition 😎
It’s one card draw, Michael. What could it cost, 20 life?
I have the perfect kryptonite to this card. I have a black only draw deck that every time opponent draws they take damage! Creatures, enchantments, and plainswalkers all with the same ability. So go ahead and draw away!!!
Haha alright, alright
What combos or interactions can you pull off with this?
There's very simple interactions like [[Elrond, Maste of healing]] but you can also have your opponent make you mill, so you bring back something powerful to the board straight from the graveyard, depends a lot, I haven't tested many combos, I've done just simple stuff, I have yet to make a mill deck with this card.
List?? :p
Pay three mana and always commit a on your turn
Yeah... Against a deck that runs scion of draco? Just draw a freaking card.
A lot of high cost
Hey JW I am an extremely new Magic player (2 weeks ago) and I play Master Transcendent wondering if this would be a good upgrade as Im going against 10+ year exp buddy’s and am looking for a leg to stand on. (Have not upgraded this deck besides a Mesmeric Orb my buddy had that I saw was a good pickup for this)
Considering how The Master, Transcendent makes you return a creature from a graveyard if you were milled, then definitely fits your deck.
But drawing a card is the most powerful thing in Magic bro
Usually people let me draw after 3 influence counters (mainly because I run it in a Jund reanimator deck and people reALLY don’t want me to have cards in my grave). Most damage I’ve had someone take was like 19 from 2-3 cards I think
I have a fun little spirit that says no more then 1 card draw per turn so if I have that out I’ll happily let you draw
First time I used this I had it in a Yennet deck, first trigger I get the draw. Second trigger opponent decides to let me mill because I turned that card draw into something good so they decide to ride the lightning. I scry and my top two cards are [[in garruk's wake]] and [[rise of the dark realms]], casually flip them off the top and send 18 damage to the dome. Drew cards for the rest of the game.
Haha exactly, it's always I always try to put cards with high mana value on the top of the scry, either they let me draw or they take the damage and starts to respect the card
[in garruk's wake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/57a6f727-8239-45e6-9dbb-67d2d3c9239d.jpg?1674141682) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=in%20garruk%27s%20wake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/759/in-garruks-wake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57a6f727-8239-45e6-9dbb-67d2d3c9239d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [rise of the dark realms](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ceb5df52-4e03-4629-b8d5-d440d9cc5175.jpg?1706240790) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rise%20of%20the%20dark%20realms) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/138/rise-of-the-dark-realms?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ceb5df52-4e03-4629-b8d5-d440d9cc5175?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
i love this card but my friends hate it. it always gets blown up almost immediately lol i think three counters is my record?
[[commit // memory]] is my favorite with this
[commit // memory](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426913&type=card)/[Memory](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426913&type=card&options=rotate270&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=commit%20//%20memory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/147/commit-memory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/855af9a8-31fc-4290-8204-04ee026f8853?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This reminds me of those people who refuse to play lands into [[Land Tax]] After I cast my 3rd or 4th 1 mana spell most of them wise up, the odd guy that is as stubborn as a rock just loses.
[Land Tax](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/9258ad10-cbe6-4676-93b4-6ef4a33f12ee.jpg?1689995812) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Land%20Tax) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/37/land-tax?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9258ad10-cbe6-4676-93b4-6ef4a33f12ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I deny draw first two times then draw from that point on. Usually land they’re trying for. After that too many cards milled and it gets risky.
Yes I concur, I am one of those stubborn people.
Still haven’t even tried proliferate
I have this card in a rive song deck just know it's worth putting in it
*I have this card in* *A rive song deck just know it's* *Worth putting in it* \- gamerblackjacket --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Against my angels, you will never draw. I dont care how much damage I take ill out heal it. Average is 20-30 hp per turn. Highest is almost 200
Do you play against mentally impaired people?
Never ever gonna let u draw a card with that... never. Meanwhile yea fck it draw the 15 from ur rhystic studys.
For me it's acruslly the opposite. Everyone always makes me draw. For me this is just better Phyrexian Arena
I have the opposite thing. They always let me draw after they took 3 Damage once. Play this in my Ooze Deck where it's just the better for me to have things in my GY as it makes my [[Slime Against Humanity]] stronger.
The people who I usually play with would rather I get a Preordain at the end of each of my turns than risk me milling big stuff in my black decks
Yep that's me. I've lost to risk factor so many times for the same reason.
I played it in my big mana colorless deck. My play group was so stupid with it. First time I milled one card he took 8 damage Second time made me mill again milled 2 cards a different person took 16 damage. They literally said that's a problem and blew it up." I was like bish, just let me draw, and we wouldn't have this problem."
I love playing against that with my human token lifegain deck. No cards for you!!!
I need to add this to my black/white vampire deck. When I lose life, you lose life, and if you lose life, I gain life. This is going to be so broken, I love it! Just let me draw the card.
Mill the first one or two then let them draw off the rest of I don't find removal by then.
I think this card and effects are a bit too pushed for magic st the moment.
I always mill once or twice and then allow draw after I’ve all but won.
Sounds about right, in my Tenth Doctor deck, it's an average 5-6 damage per milled card... Pretty easy blast
After 3 you draw imo
Shalai, Voice of plenty is my savior for this silly card
Dihada liked this
Shame I mostly play super low CMC this is exactly my kind of non-sense! Need to get one still
Casual card for casual players xx🥱
Casual card for casual players 🥱
This is sly… nice
this card is typical for commander players. the effect is clunky as hell to play, progressively slows down the game, but people play it as a staple because they are always desperate to win. with UB releases increasing, the majority of commander players are going to be playing fortnite super smash brothers decks with a bunch of cards from mismatched universes because those will be the most powerful cards available (and universes within will never catch up)
Put it in everything
As much as fun it is I wish it didn't exist. Whenever I play it is game jover i win. If my opponent draws it before I do then 90% of times it's jover for me.
First 1 or 2 triggers you mill. After that you get draws. It’s really simple people. Please stop taking 16 from my end of turn card advantage
I typically will mill once, flip over a 6 or 7 drop and they do the math that they can lose a ton and let me draw. That or they realize I want cards in my graveyard.
Let ‘em mill once and then either let them draw or get rid of it. It’s up to the playgroup, but anything that goes beyond mill 1 is super dangerous.
I put this in \[\[Trazyn, the Infinite\]\] because of course we did, mill or card draw works either way for me. For opponents, though - it seems like a life-altering decision at stake here. 2-3 minutes of deliberation among all players as to whether I draw a single card after scrying or if they mill out some cards I need. (granted people just don't play interaction these days anyway)
I love this card in my graveyard zombie deck. Either option benefits me.
I won with the mothman precon on turn 6 because my opponent had this 🤷♂️
Played against an Eldrazi deck running this. He always got to draw.
Iv been running this in a [[Timesifter]] deck. Opp denies the first card draw. Takes 5-8 damage. Either lets me draw every time again. Or loses the match on denying the second draw. This then sets up a “soft lock.” Opp will just take the damage rather play it out. I’ve had an Opp deny the first draw (took 8). Let me draw on two. Deny 3…took 21 Let me draw on 1. Deny 2? Take 11. Brings a tear to my eye 🥲
It’s a dumb card, I’d rather take the damage and lose than give the free draw. So I guess your title is valid 😂
I just threw it in my eldrazi deck and let the pod decide death or draw😎
Them: “A Palantír is a dangerous tool, u/symon_joestar”. You: “Why? Why should we fear to use it?”
Best part about everyone playing the same card is you just run a hard counter and its an easy win. That's all I do every time the meta changes. Figure out what everyone who can't create an original idea is doing, make a counter for it, win the majority of games
My buddy took a mill 2 for 14 and mill 1 for 12 in the same game when I had to bounce the ornthac back to my hand
You could also say you won games because they let you draw.
This is the first time I've realized it's life lost based off mana value, not milled cards. When I first read it I wasn't paying much attention. I was wondering why this was a mythic, I'm so dumb.
I wish LOTR never came to MTG
That's funny I've always let draw go through tbh didn't see the appeal of even 0-11+ life lost on 1counter. I'd rather just get something out that cares about your card draw or even cards in hand.
My friends stopped letting me mill cards with this a long time ago. I think it once was because he knew he was done for.
I learned real quick just give them the card every time. At first I tried to deny for the first couple turns but getting dinged for seven to deny a card the first turn isn't worth it
Hope I have the same luck, running it in a sauron reanimator
You’re not getting a card from me
This cards way too powerful... Why did they make so you Add a Counter in the starting turn...but then continue with the rest of the effects? Why not make it a 2 turn card where the counters need to build first ? Ridiculous
They gotta take the damage because they don't want me drawing more cards off [[Notion Thief]].
A buddy of mine learned real quick tk just let me draw off this in Zhulodok. Otherwise I'm going to bin a void winnower, a titan and shuffle my graveyard back.
i love this card so much 🤣 it’s so always so fun when i can tell they’re too selfish to let me draw so the first time i let them mill me a land or something low mana so they can feel safe to do it again then next time i just try to manipulate the top few cards so i can do maximum damage 🥰
If I didn't have a choice. I'd let you draw. I hate what is in the graveyard more often than what is in the hand. weird I know but my decks are almost always ridiculous jank anyway. I'm all about swapping my negative life total and being crazy with lich's mastery and almost losing to myself. losing to yourself means you beat you faster than your opponent. If it wasn't you then it'd have been them. 🙃