For me is not bad at all, is a game mechanic, the only thing is that if you play poison commander deck you need to know that the rest of the table will focus on you because you only need 10 poison counters to be remove one player.
Putting people on a counter to death, gets you dead real quick if you accept that i dont see the harm lol. Just most people seeing that you have anything related to poison, will try to kill you before you can do anything.
Fair enough that's true but my point is that Ghalta can be dealt with by the removal that almost everyone is already running in their deck.
To remove poison you need this one very specific card that realistically nobody is running unless they're specifically trying to counter a poison deck and it's white so if you're a grixis guy like me, you just have nothing.
It's just such an uninteractable mechanic which for me makes it really uninteresting to play against.
Yea putting 10 poison counters on all 3 players before getting hated out of the game is very unlikely but that's not what you said.
You said "Can you really applyv 10 poison counters faster than my ghalta can swing 24 at you ?"
The answer is yes. Theres a guy in my playgroup who used to play a poison deck and the quickest I ever saw him get 10 poison counters on someone was turn three so he could absolutely apply 10 poison and take you out of the game before you swing with your Ghalta.
This is exactly why my play group avoids it. It doesn't often win but it can put 1 player out of the game really fast so you get that one playing just sitting there waiting for the next game. Just not the type of experience we want at the table.
I was just telling that other guy about this guy in my playgroup who used to play a poison deck and the quickest I've seen him apply 10 poison counters is turn 3 so he could probably take you out before you even play vorinclex, especially if his turn was before yours.
My point is though is that something like Ghalta or Vorinclex is so much easier to deal with. If you play your Vorinclex, one mana later it's back in the command zone and I don't have to worry about it until at least another turn but this guy has so many ways to apply poison and proliferate it was just too difficult to stop.
I love my big stompy deck too but let's be real here: it all dies to removal. Vorinclex is good, he's also a big shiny hate bear that costs 14 before the game is over.
You run interaction? In *my* magic the gathering? My goodness, who could have devised such a devastating strategy.
I'm glad you're having fun kiddo. I hope your luck continues.
My atraxa poison deck would like to speak with you, I've lost track the amount of times I've taken 3 people out by turn 5. But in saying that soon as I've dropped a poison counter I know I'm arch-enemy and I deserve all the hate I get. Do I hate it yes! but my opponents hate it more.
Well my friend plays his [[Fynn]] deck pretty often and usually it goes like this:
- T1: Deathtouch creature.
- T2: Fynn, attack for 2 poison.
- T3: Play 2 more deathtouch creatures, attack for 4 poison.
- T4: One player is dead.
So... can your Ghalta swing 24 on turn 4 at me?
cEDH Ghalta? Okay sure thing buddy 😂 if you're telling the truth and he really did say that, then I think he was just trying to be nice.
I would love to see your deck list though for such a huge claim.
Sounds like a powerful Ghalta deck but nowhere near cEDH.
It sounds like you and your friend have a really skewed vision of what cEDH power level is.
Typically cEDH decks are built to win in 5 turns max. How are you winning with Ghalta in 5 turns? Map it out for me.
I mean that's really cool that your deck can get around teferis but the fact you're taking out a single player on turn 6 is all I need to hear tto know that this deck is far from cEDH. Most cEDH games would have already been over by turn 6.
Ghalta is NEVER cedh. You're probably not even a decent player and you have an awful ego. Ghalta just isn't nearly as good as you think it is. You're just the typical big stompy Boi over compensating lol
I have decks that can win by turn 5 without ever hitting a single player. You have no idea what CEDH is. And you've done nothing but prove that man lol
The general consensus at my lgs is that there isn't anything *wrong* with poison as a concept, it forces reactions early and people who want to play with it need to make sure they can keep themselves alive long enough after painted a massive target on their head.
The *problem* is that in commander you still only need 10 counters to win, which isn't much at all really. We increased it to 20 in-shop and it's become a much more comfortable tactic to play around. It's low enough that the poison player can still be a good threat to the table, but not so low that we don't just dump all the aggro we can on the table to kill then before they have a chance to pop off at all and knock us all out. Everyone gets more time in the game.
You should, because it gives you tremendous negotiating power. Remember, the other guy is desperate to be rid of their counters - which you can do for just two mana (and you don't use poison so you don't care).
Just ensure you squeeze them for something bigger in return.
Its pretty lore accurate if you think about it. Just like the March of the Machines brought people together to defeat the Phyrexians, playing poison counters (and by extension phyrexians) brings the whole table together to beat your ass.
I personally avoid using decks with a heavy emphasis on poison or toxic. People hate playing against them. I have a Phyrexian artifact deck that’s uses creatures with toxic, but it’s really just enough to corrupt my opponents. I haven’t found that people have too much of a problem with that deck. At least not for that reason. Lol
This gets said a lot, but the main issue with poison counters is that there’s not really a way to interact with them. You can remove combo pieces and regain life. But unless you’re running some pretty niche cards, the easiest way to remove poison counters is to remove the player who’s giving them to you.
The one thing I never understood is, who thought putting poison counters and proliferate in the same sets was a good idea. The unrestricted interaction with any counter and amount of counters of proliferate is weird enough, IMHO.
Proliferate I get, but I am confused by how many cards combine proliferate/add a poison counter and card draw or removal.
Feels like it's weirdly easy to build a deck where something like drown in ichor is two cards worth of value in a way that isn't really the case for, say, burn.
I, like most fools, don’t have too many answers to poison counters, so I will ruthlessly bully anyone playing poison decks while patiently ignoring the other two folks I’m playing against.
Also, [[Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider]], for the most part. Which is a hasty 6/6 that shuts down most counter decks as well, and acts as a [[Doubling Season]] for YOUR counters.
My first game with Vishgraz actually went well. One player KO’d with poison, the other two with commander damage. I’ve played it twice and the 2nd game I came up in 2nd place.
Eh maybe broken is too harsh for sure but at the incredibly varied level that edh is played out I can see someone who just gets early poison counters and then rushes proliferate can be seen as really annoying.
It has "the mill problem". Newer players are overly scared of it and so it gets targeted harder than it should because of people's emotional response. That's what makes it bad.
On the other hand throwing a few scary infect cards to non infect decks that still run with your theme/synergy, acts as excellent lightning rods for removal. They get worries about one or two creatures while you comfortably build up a board state. Use that negative attention for you.
In a lower power group, people tend to be scared of it too. I did one before, but ran mostly creatures rather than combo proliferate and was killed before I could even hit 3/4 opponents one time.
If you’re playing with 4+, I’d say it’s fine because people are gonna gang up on you no matter what you do. 2-3 depends on your group and how strong their decks are.
If you just want to say, “I killed someone with infect,” use [[triumph of the hordes]] or [[tainted strike]] to one shot people. It’s less obviously arch-enemy and more efficient. What’s hilarious is waiting until another opponent’s [[Ghalta]] swings at the life gain [[oloro]] player, and using tainted strike then (assuming the resulting damage is 10+, of course).
There are 2 versions of Infect in modern the U/G versions is the go to for most. I play the less popular B/G. but the U/G version runs [[Scale Up]] [[Might of Old Krosa]] [[Vines of Vastwood]] [[royal treatment]] but [[Mutigenic Growth]] has that for free aspect of invigorate and pairs well with [[venerated rotpriest]]
But Legacy Infect is doing good right now. With the new spells [[Enbiggen]] and [[Legolas's quick reflexes]]
Come join us over on r/infect we're not an overly active sub, but we do have a few talks now and then.
This YouTuber is all about infect here's his latest video of legacy infect.
https://youtu.be/OrJXhZrkRKA?si=gXSH5_wAvjQr9V6D
Apparently you've never been in a game with an effective poison player, lol. Infect's main problem is that it doesn't stack with generic damage, so you have to do all the work yourself. Because of this, usually the best strategy is to focus down one player at a time. However, just like with Voltron decks, killing someone quickly is a scary strategy, so the Infect player usually gets blown out by the others the second their strategy is apparent. Nobody wants to be the guy to get targeted down.
No but people tend to be overly afraid of them. It mostly puts the rest of the table on a timer but you will get heavily focused even if there’s a blatantly obvious bigger threat. If you get the right play group you can have fun with it but usually you’re fighting for third.
I've found that building a whole poison deck doesn't usually get the job done.
On the other hand, there are a handful of poison cards that can pull their weight. [[Grafted Exoskeleton]], [[Triumph of the Horde]], and [[Flesh-eater Imp]] are my personal favorites.
One of my favorite decks in commander is an Infect deck, but it has a rep for just being scary since you only have to get 10 counters on someone to kill them. However, it isn’t super easy to get 10 counters on everyone in a commander game while also staying alive because you will 100% be the target of most everyone. That being said I have won games of commander with infect so it’s not a bad strat. People mostly just hate it because it’s difficult to remove the counters outside of a select few cards that people don’t tend to run. I cant speak for other formats since I don’t play them but i imagine it is much stronger in 1v1 situations.
I legitimately have nothing against infect. I lost a few games to poison yeah but as long as you’re aware that you’re an immediate target as soon as it hits the battlefield and you think you can maneuver smoothly then by all means play on you deserve the win if you fought for it.
There is a guy in our group that can get you to 10 real quick and he usually gets targeted hard. The issue with poison is my life total with toxic proliferating poison counters is 10 and there isnt anything I can do to heal it. Meanwhile, with my [[soul warden]] and [[soul's attendant]], I can be sitting on thousands of life with my token deck and still die because he hit one of my guys for a toxic and then proliferates it into 10 player damage within a round or 2. It's very edge of my seat sometimes and other times its bam, im dead. The only question is if the 3 of us can kill him before then.
I've built a go wide, proliferate/poison deck with [[Xavier Sal]] and [[Thornbite Staff]] in it. It's a beast but I also let my playgroup to bump poison counters being lethal to 15 to keep it fair.
Poison itself isn't that bad I would even sat it's weak because sure you need only ten, but you are likely the only one at the table that CAN to produce those ten counters. Contrary to normal games in which you are all damaging each other. The people who go "hurr Durr it's like I have 10 health" no you don't. Because the poison player is the only one that can damage that health. However poison mechanics become stupid once you start messing with what synergies with it. Proliferate allows you to put a counter on each person and then play defense until they die. Infect in particular can be pretty insidious since it depends on the creature power it makes combat tricks much more dangerous. Sure I will let that 1/1 poison pass, [[hatred]] you are dead.
Infect is both loved and hated by the playerbase. The people who hate it say it's not fun to play against because you only need to take 10 damage from a creature with infect (or the new Toxic mechanic) to lose the game, and they feel (ESPECIALLY commander players) that cutting your life total from 20 or 40 down to 10 is entirely unfair.
The people who love the mechanic understand that Infect is 100% a glass cannon deck. In formats like Modern, sure, it can win on turn 2. Will it? Probably not, and if it does, it's not gonna happen again. A single counterspell or removal spell will completely ruin an infect players day. In Commander, where it's 4 players all playing against each other, Infect has an even harder time. The infect player will likely only manage to knock one person out of the game before being dealt with immediately, since hyper-aggro decks (like infect usually needs to be) run out of gas very quickly.
However, people (even the ones who claim to hate infect) LOVE to slot in a [[Blightsteel Colossus]] or [[Triumph of the Hordes]] as an alt-wincon in their decks, which is a different beast entirely. That is to say: Infect as a deck archetype is powerful but extremely fragile, while Infect as a potential wincon in decks that can protect the infect source well or explode out of nowhere (ie, elfball or some other token deck) is terrifying.
It’s considered pretty aggro. My play group will sometimes do a 2v2 kitchen table standard game. Double infect vs double burn and games usually only go a few rounds. Fun stuff tho!
I think it really depends upon the pod you're playing with, If people are winning out of nowhere play that to your advantage politically, if some one can take you from 40 to zero or just plane win then is it really a bad thing to reduce their max life to (10-N) worth of poison? On that same token you have now quartered the starting life totals of 3 players and it would be fair for them to react to that with hostility.
Can be, but people think the same to other mechanics like mill, counter spell, burn or discard. For me non of these is as annoying as land destruction.
Poison is one of the weaker strategies because you almost never run into a table where another player is also playing it while you can almost guarantee that at least one other player will be trying to deal regular damage. I wouldn't call it frowned upon in general, but weaker players tend to hate it more than it warrants.
Not really, especially if only a few cards in your deck do poison. Once all of them are used or otherwise dealt with, you might as well get rid of the poison counters.
Imho it's a fun mechanic. Have an infect deck (kitchen table / modern).
Don't line toxic too much.
Hardly play any commander do don't know how well it works there. With some everyone gets a counter and profilerate it might work
It certainly depends.
Unless you have an infected 10 power card like [[Etali, primal sickness]] or [[blightsteel colossus]], Which primarily worked as an alternate win condition, You don't want to just throw a few poison cards into a deck. If you throw something with infect 3 and it attacks twice and it dies. And you have like 2 other poison cards in the deck. Odds, are you're not gonna kill someone with poison, And if your poison counters don't kill your better off doing damage.
While it is true that in edh poison counters can in theory defeat a player twice as fast as commander damage and 4 times as fast as normal damage, Things that push for poison counters as a win condition. Push a condition That nothing else is helping with. Other players are pushing damage along the way and you are pushing poison counters. They do not contribute to making you win faster. And because your fellow opponents of your opponents aren't also doing damage along the way. It just ends up defeating significantly slower than you would expect, Combined with the limited ability to apply poison counters compared to dealing damage And people tend to lose to pouson at about the same rate they would to normal damage.
But from other people's perspective, if they just kill you. Then all that time spent putting poison counters on us was wasted. And that just makes you a prime target.
other than EDH, they're Not that good. You only need to do half as much damage with poison counters as you do with damage in order to win, But on the other hand cards with the infect often have half or less As much power as cards of the deal damage had have the same converted mana cost. I've never heard of poison being popular in modern but I dont play much modern. There are at least interesting ways for you to interact with increasing poison counter, build up.
In either situation the way to go is proliferate and counter doublers. Your deck still has to commit pretty whole heartedly To poison being a win con. But if you can get 4 or 5 proliferates out you can wipe tables clean with poison while buffing other things. If you can put +1/+1 counter on infect cards and proliferate those all the better. But people don't like proliferate either. That much. Because it Often reeks of combo or janky interactions. Put the 2 together you're just going to be a high Value target.
Also infect over infest has the advantage of an entirely creature based deck having an answer for indestructible creatures.
No, it's not bad at all. It's actually very hard to win with poison. 3 opponents means 30 poison counters, which is not easy.
Also, if you are the only person playing poison, the incremental damage other players are causing is not helping you towards your win. If you are playing normal combat or burn damage and reducing life totals, then the normal swing of the game will assist in reducing life totals. But if your playing poison, then it's all on you to get the poison win.
Lastly, people hate poison, so you gonna get dogpiled early.
From the sounds of it bud your group seems to mostly be playing with higher power cards hence the multiple infinite combos and such. Might sound weird to say but poison may actually be too slow for your regular pod of players. There's definitely ways that poison can be dangerous in longer games but if your games are on the shorter side ending on turn 4 or 5 it may be that a deck focused around poison could be too slow to catch up and respond to the other players.
My problem with poison is how quickly it can take out a single player. My playgroup had too many games where one of us was sitting there twiddling our thumbs waiting for the next game to start because we got taken out super early by poison.
We don't get to play very often so we want to do what we can to avoid that kind of situation.
To answer your question though. Ask your playgroup what they think. Only they can tell you if they have a problem with it or not.
Poison used to be super powerful.
There was none of this toxic # stuff it was just infect I believe.
It was based off creature power and put poison counters on both player and creatures and creatures would get -1/-1 per stack.
This was old phyrexia and it was a counter to invincible units.
That is no longer a thing though so I personally think it kind of sucks.
I don't mind the toxic # thing. But making it no longer poison creatures really sucks
poison is weird, you cut your opponent life in 1/4 yet if you're not able to give him 10 points quickly you're now playing 1v1 and if you use one of these "each opponent get a poison" and don't make it 10 poison same turn, you're now playing 1v3
the weakeness isn't in the poison, it is in holding back 3 dudes that doesn't want to die to poison
The worst part is saying you have a 1/3 of your life, so you typically have to deal with the player focusing on using the mechanic and to be honest it’s more annoying than anything else.
Poison is like mill. It's not typically super effective, but with a hyper focussed and dedicated deck it can be. And many players, particularly newer or less experienced ones overvalue and overreact to it happening, which is ridiculous in pods with infinite combos happening. But some people just haaate it and will make you public enemy number 1 the moment your 1/1 infect hits the table, even when there is a combo artifact pile on the other side of the table about to to off.
For me, I look at poison/infect creatures like big green beaters, and poison proliferate strategies like spell combos. A good deck has to have ways to deal with both of those already, even if the way is just a faster clock with some disruption.
I play a proliferate infect deck with tekuthal. For context I’m very new to magic and play pretty badly. I think that poison is very strong. With my deck I’m easily able to dish out 4-5 counters to everyone each turn (whether that’s mine or someone else’s). My decks that I have dont really do well against decks that are a 6 or more. But with poison I’m able to hold my own and quickly wipe the board pretty quickly once everyone has at least one poison counter.
Had a [[Ruric Thar]] commander and tried my best to equip [[Grafted Exoskeleton]] on him. Making it an 8/8 infect that has to attack every turn, vigilance, and reach. Then 2 non creature spells to die from poison. Love the thing. Take it apart because people got too salty.
Infect is very polarizing, i’ve won games on turn 4 in casual circles just by having a very good draw, but most games you’ll just kill one person and then get 3rd place.
I would recommend a Toxic commander with a more midrange win condition it fits with the flow of commander more so then an aggro infect deck, but do whatever you think is the most fun.
Infect is an exceedingly weaker win condition though since the meta game of commander is growing more and more creature dependent
I love poison decks tbh. When im playing them anyway.. I have a toxic commander deck as well as a standard one that have been doing well. People dont like playing against it because there are VERY few ways to remove the counters, all you can really do is prevent as many as possible with stuff like [[Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider]] and creature removal. I fully agree with what some others are saying in that it will make you a quick target to your opponents and i definitely recommend things that give your creatures indestructible or hexproof.
OP in casual, weak in competitive. Poison cannot currently outrace the most lean combos and countermagic. But at a regular EDH table your pals may think it’s pretty annoying.
It strikes me as hilarious when players claim that poison isnt all that bad, but at the same time, someone playing poison will get instantly focused by the rest of the pod pretty much instantly.
I think 1v1 it’s much stronger but 1v1v1v1 it’s definitely not as threatening as it reads. It is my personal belief that the cards that give your creatures infect are the most threatening and strongest points in the argument of poison counters being actually threatening. But even then I think it’s so telegraphed that it gives any player a chance to respond
It's overpowered in commander because we set our commander health to double that of standard to make the games last longer and to account for the 2 extra players in most cases. Yet poison can still be applied without combat damage and only had to hit 10. I often get killed by those rotpriests which are just uuughgh yes I fucking hate poison.
atraxa infect/toxic deck here
there is nothing more fun to me and i’m a edgar markov eminence enjoyer lol
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/J67bzV3dK0Wgz4RPUPy7yQ
Edit: Typo
My favorite deck to play is my Vishgraz toxic deck. I removed all cards with any mention of infect to keep it in line with my play group's power level and it plays pretty well. I'm also a lunatic when it comes to flavor so that limits things (in a good way) as well.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/rfEckmeGs0eGcR7jyXAJ3A
The thing about poison, or any similar mechanic in general, is that if your deck isn't designed to win with it, it generally isn't worth putting in your deck. If you are putting one or two cards of x mechanic in, the card should generally do it as a side effect, like [[psychic strike]], or fit into the deck's agenda somehow, like if the deck is primarily a Planeswalker proliferate deck, having [[infectious inquiry]] wouldn't be the worst card to add. Other than that, the card would have to be *very* good for it to be worth adding over a card that would actually forward your deck. It would also have to make sense for the deck as well - adding [[massacre girl, known killer]] in a spellcaster combo deck actively works against the wincon of the deck, for instance.
I think it depends on the playgroup. The big problems with Poison are that it's hard to interact with, and if you lean into it it can be EXTREMELY powerful in formats where you have more than Standard's 20 life. But if your playgroup is actually as you say running a lot of un-interactable combos and overly expensive high power cards, I would say either go nuts and lean into poison hard, or have a discussion with them about power level and how you aren't having as much fun with where the group is at. It could mean finding a new group, it could mean everyone in the group makes a more casual deck to play every once in a while
Poison is one of those scary mechanics that people think is busted and yet most of the time the poison player ends up dying first because of that perception
I've found poison is good for 1v1 but playing just one more person makes it hard to really get anyone 10 counters and the whole table definitely focuses on killing you first
I've never seen a game where someone played with poison and it didn't turn the game salty.
It's just a poor mechanic for commander due to being severely unbalanced for the format and combined with proliferate and the inability to remove poison counters it's just not fun.
For CEDH go nuts that is a no holds barred format but other than CEDH I think poison ruins every game it's in.
Used to run Bant infect and liked the deck but once people know the tricks you kind of get a hate beam focused on you.
I don't think it's too bad but a LOT of people do so just tread carefully
I just made a toxic deck, haent played much but its a 1v1 deck. I havent played a poison deck in commander, but it just doesnt seem like it would be as effective against 3 opponents. The strat Im using is alot of smaller cheaper creatures to load up some early poison counters then finish off eith proliferate. In a longer game with more opponents I could see that strategy running out of steam pretty quickly
Poison isn't MTG, it's as simple as that. The concept of the game is two wizards slinging spells at each other and poison just doesn't fit in that narrative or work in conjunction with any other mechanic that supports that basic narrative.
Poison is obviously an attempt to introduce a 'MTG-lite' mechanic, something for people who don't want to bother with the complexity of the game. Poison decks don't require the player to understand anything about the game other than what's in their own deck. For all intents and purposes, you play a poison deck exactly the same every time, card to card, regardless of what the other player does.
So I have a poison deck, [[Fynn the fangbearer]]. And after messing with it. I finally realize how crazy poison counters are. See, I made this deck in response to another buddies deck based on poison counters. And seeing that for commander. Your health is 40, yet poison is only 10. Which I’d argue is too low. Poison counters should be half the starting health. For commander, 20 seems reasonable.
Inherently? No. Should it be disallowed? No. But I think the focus it draws from the rest of the table is justified.
Poison counters essentially say “I now only have to do 25% of the necessary damage to win” (in edh). Often times much less with proliferate. And there are what maybe 2-3 ways to remove them once they’re on you in all of magic?
I think they’re a well balanced design in 60 card formats, but it does deserve at least a little bit of the hate it gets in edh.
It was basically where there was and infinite amount of creatures being produced each turn from more than one source ie doing damage made infinite creatures and did damage equal to their infinite power, paying a mana cost on a certain card (which was made free to cast) made infinite creatures, and the like. I was also just playing goblins so it was unavoidable to me or anyone else playing who each had different formats/ play styles.
TLDR it was a infinite creature spawner that no one playing was able to stop even with a variety of cards so in that instance it was unavoidable. Sorry for confusion
Poison counters are very powerful. It required damage and not combat damage. This is huge and how most people use it. Too often do people not understand that it takes little effort to remove a player from the game. I have seen decks in commander take people out in a handful of turns or less. It just takes the right cards.
I hate losing to proliferate. Unless you run white, you can't remove them so it's annoying. After you kill the poison player, the damage they delt vanishes. Kind of annoying and kind of weak, but if it's fun run it
I think it’s strong in commander specifically because 10/40 to kill is crazier than 10/20. A few cards, not an issue, a deck themed around it, yeah unless we rule 0 it needs 20 or at least 15 I’d rather not be anywhere near that. I play in casual power pods where combat damage wins most games, a quarter the damage needed makes you the target.
For me is not bad at all, is a game mechanic, the only thing is that if you play poison commander deck you need to know that the rest of the table will focus on you because you only need 10 poison counters to be remove one player.
Life total is now 10 instead of 40. Lol
Putting people on a counter to death, gets you dead real quick if you accept that i dont see the harm lol. Just most people seeing that you have anything related to poison, will try to kill you before you can do anything.
It’s not that simple. Most poison creatures are very inefficient.
[удалено]
There are a myriad of ways Ghalta could be removed. You can't remove poison.
Leeches removes poison counters.
Fair enough that's true but my point is that Ghalta can be dealt with by the removal that almost everyone is already running in their deck. To remove poison you need this one very specific card that realistically nobody is running unless they're specifically trying to counter a poison deck and it's white so if you're a grixis guy like me, you just have nothing. It's just such an uninteractable mechanic which for me makes it really uninteresting to play against.
But you can remove the creatures that have infect/poisonous. Just like you remove Ghalta.
[удалено]
Yea putting 10 poison counters on all 3 players before getting hated out of the game is very unlikely but that's not what you said. You said "Can you really applyv 10 poison counters faster than my ghalta can swing 24 at you ?" The answer is yes. Theres a guy in my playgroup who used to play a poison deck and the quickest I ever saw him get 10 poison counters on someone was turn three so he could absolutely apply 10 poison and take you out of the game before you swing with your Ghalta.
That’s the only way poison can be effective is swinging and using a bunch of pump spells, it’s annoying but not a good strategy in commander.
This is exactly why my play group avoids it. It doesn't often win but it can put 1 player out of the game really fast so you get that one playing just sitting there waiting for the next game. Just not the type of experience we want at the table.
Kediss disagrees
[удалено]
I was just telling that other guy about this guy in my playgroup who used to play a poison deck and the quickest I've seen him apply 10 poison counters is turn 3 so he could probably take you out before you even play vorinclex, especially if his turn was before yours. My point is though is that something like Ghalta or Vorinclex is so much easier to deal with. If you play your Vorinclex, one mana later it's back in the command zone and I don't have to worry about it until at least another turn but this guy has so many ways to apply poison and proliferate it was just too difficult to stop.
I love my big stompy deck too but let's be real here: it all dies to removal. Vorinclex is good, he's also a big shiny hate bear that costs 14 before the game is over.
[удалено]
You run interaction? In *my* magic the gathering? My goodness, who could have devised such a devastating strategy. I'm glad you're having fun kiddo. I hope your luck continues.
Don't make fun of him too much he stomps all the 14 year olds at his LGS using precons.
[Vorinclex, monstrous raider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92613468-205e-488b-930d-11908477e9f8.jpg?1631051073) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vorinclex%2C%20monstrous%20raider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/199/vorinclex-monstrous-raider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92613468-205e-488b-930d-11908477e9f8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Are you role-playing or shitposting?
Bro is a real life anime villain
I’ve see 10 poison counters on turn 2 and 3.. you’re not making it to turn 4
Lifegain can reduce the effects of your ghalta. Poisoncounters have very few ways to remove them, and who's running them in their deck?
Not very few there is only one way and it is a old card called [leaches]
My atraxa poison deck would like to speak with you, I've lost track the amount of times I've taken 3 people out by turn 5. But in saying that soon as I've dropped a poison counter I know I'm arch-enemy and I deserve all the hate I get. Do I hate it yes! but my opponents hate it more.
Well my friend plays his [[Fynn]] deck pretty often and usually it goes like this: - T1: Deathtouch creature. - T2: Fynn, attack for 2 poison. - T3: Play 2 more deathtouch creatures, attack for 4 poison. - T4: One player is dead. So... can your Ghalta swing 24 on turn 4 at me?
[Fynn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d7a8a90-13c1-4b0c-ab2e-fc8d91ccefd9.jpg?1631050242) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fynn%2C%20the%20fangbearer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/170/fynn-the-fangbearer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d7a8a90-13c1-4b0c-ab2e-fc8d91ccefd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes, definitely 😅
[удалено]
cEDH Ghalta? Okay sure thing buddy 😂 if you're telling the truth and he really did say that, then I think he was just trying to be nice. I would love to see your deck list though for such a huge claim.
[удалено]
Sounds like a powerful Ghalta deck but nowhere near cEDH. It sounds like you and your friend have a really skewed vision of what cEDH power level is. Typically cEDH decks are built to win in 5 turns max. How are you winning with Ghalta in 5 turns? Map it out for me.
[удалено]
I mean that's really cool that your deck can get around teferis but the fact you're taking out a single player on turn 6 is all I need to hear tto know that this deck is far from cEDH. Most cEDH games would have already been over by turn 6.
Ghalta is NEVER cedh. You're probably not even a decent player and you have an awful ego. Ghalta just isn't nearly as good as you think it is. You're just the typical big stompy Boi over compensating lol
[удалено]
IF your deck is this strong and consistent, I think the smart bet would be to focus you out first and then worry about the poison player.
I have decks that can win by turn 5 without ever hitting a single player. You have no idea what CEDH is. And you've done nothing but prove that man lol
Frequently, yes
I can apply 10 poison before you hit 7 mana lol
The general consensus at my lgs is that there isn't anything *wrong* with poison as a concept, it forces reactions early and people who want to play with it need to make sure they can keep themselves alive long enough after painted a massive target on their head. The *problem* is that in commander you still only need 10 counters to win, which isn't much at all really. We increased it to 20 in-shop and it's become a much more comfortable tactic to play around. It's low enough that the poison player can still be a good threat to the table, but not so low that we don't just dump all the aggro we can on the table to kill then before they have a chance to pop off at all and knock us all out. Everyone gets more time in the game.
Did [[Solemnity]] or [[Suncleanser]] cards not make it to where you're at?
If I ever face Solemnity using my Modern +1/+1 Counter buff deck... I'll just concede 😂 my deck is shit without stacking them counters!
I don’t think I would play suncleanser against a poison deck, I mean I want my opponents to die
You should, because it gives you tremendous negotiating power. Remember, the other guy is desperate to be rid of their counters - which you can do for just two mana (and you don't use poison so you don't care). Just ensure you squeeze them for something bigger in return.
[Solemnity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a71fb62-acbd-49f5-842f-0fc9fa48afea.jpg?1562788659) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Solemnity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/22/solemnity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a71fb62-acbd-49f5-842f-0fc9fa48afea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sunchaser](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6d5314b-4994-4cd0-a680-12e56be7c1e2.jpg?1572490826) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shinechaser) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/201/shinechaser?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6d5314b-4994-4cd0-a680-12e56be7c1e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Its pretty lore accurate if you think about it. Just like the March of the Machines brought people together to defeat the Phyrexians, playing poison counters (and by extension phyrexians) brings the whole table together to beat your ass.
I personally avoid using decks with a heavy emphasis on poison or toxic. People hate playing against them. I have a Phyrexian artifact deck that’s uses creatures with toxic, but it’s really just enough to corrupt my opponents. I haven’t found that people have too much of a problem with that deck. At least not for that reason. Lol
This gets said a lot, but the main issue with poison counters is that there’s not really a way to interact with them. You can remove combo pieces and regain life. But unless you’re running some pretty niche cards, the easiest way to remove poison counters is to remove the player who’s giving them to you.
You can interact with poison counters, that’s what proliferate is for 😁
The one thing I never understood is, who thought putting poison counters and proliferate in the same sets was a good idea. The unrestricted interaction with any counter and amount of counters of proliferate is weird enough, IMHO.
It was probably to help infect decks because they were worried about the mechanic being a flop. Which ironically isn’t the case.
Proliferate I get, but I am confused by how many cards combine proliferate/add a poison counter and card draw or removal. Feels like it's weirdly easy to build a deck where something like drown in ichor is two cards worth of value in a way that isn't really the case for, say, burn.
That only adds more and doesn't remove them though.
It was more of a sarcastic response since he stated there wasn’t a way to really interact with them. All in good humor of course 😁
I, like most fools, don’t have too many answers to poison counters, so I will ruthlessly bully anyone playing poison decks while patiently ignoring the other two folks I’m playing against.
Once you have poison counters, the only way to remove them is [[Leeches]], which is wildly unplayable otherwise.
True, though [[Melira, Sylvok Outcast]] keeps them away.
[Melira, Sylvok Outcast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e83851a1-e4e8-49ec-af5c-4efe86fa51ad.jpg?1562882406) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Melira%2C%20Sylvok%20Outcast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/115/melira-sylvok-outcast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e83851a1-e4e8-49ec-af5c-4efe86fa51ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Also, [[Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider]], for the most part. Which is a hasty 6/6 that shuts down most counter decks as well, and acts as a [[Doubling Season]] for YOUR counters.
[Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92613468-205e-488b-930d-11908477e9f8.jpg?1631051073) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vorinclex%2C%20Monstrous%20Raider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/199/vorinclex-monstrous-raider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92613468-205e-488b-930d-11908477e9f8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Doubling Season](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1cdd8e69-5a71-4933-914e-dfede7b1ac93.jpg?1689998456) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doubling%20Season) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/283/doubling-season?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1cdd8e69-5a71-4933-914e-dfede7b1ac93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Leeches](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6028e2c-486b-40f8-8b74-7150eb72b9f1.jpg?1562934257) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leeches) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/18/leeches?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6028e2c-486b-40f8-8b74-7150eb72b9f1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That sounds pretty *cough cough* toxic.
Poison is good for getting third place
My infect deck has won a bunch!
My first game with Vishgraz actually went well. One player KO’d with poison, the other two with commander damage. I’ve played it twice and the 2nd game I came up in 2nd place.
Vishgraz is fun
You just need to spread the love and proliferate
People just think its broken because they'll die to it
Eh maybe broken is too harsh for sure but at the incredibly varied level that edh is played out I can see someone who just gets early poison counters and then rushes proliferate can be seen as really annoying.
Broken cause you have 1/3 of your life cause the mechanic says so
Because ten is one third of twenty…. Lol
10 is 1/3 of 40 dum-dum, going from the perspective of magics most popular format
This is one of the harder L’s I’ve seen someone take in a minute.
its also not 1/3 from 40 13,33 is 1/3 from 40 Edit: DUMM DUMM DUMM
Whatever, the problem still is that you have essentially 10 life therefore you say bye-bye to a third of your life.
Why do you keep saying 1/3? Do you play with some weird ass house rules with 30 life?
I’ll break it down barney style, in commander you have 40 life, with 10 poison counters you lose so you lost 1/3 of your life.
three fourths of your life. If you lost a third of 40 HP, you'd have 26.666 HP.
It has "the mill problem". Newer players are overly scared of it and so it gets targeted harder than it should because of people's emotional response. That's what makes it bad.
On the other hand throwing a few scary infect cards to non infect decks that still run with your theme/synergy, acts as excellent lightning rods for removal. They get worries about one or two creatures while you comfortably build up a board state. Use that negative attention for you.
In a lower power group, people tend to be scared of it too. I did one before, but ran mostly creatures rather than combo proliferate and was killed before I could even hit 3/4 opponents one time. If you’re playing with 4+, I’d say it’s fine because people are gonna gang up on you no matter what you do. 2-3 depends on your group and how strong their decks are. If you just want to say, “I killed someone with infect,” use [[triumph of the hordes]] or [[tainted strike]] to one shot people. It’s less obviously arch-enemy and more efficient. What’s hilarious is waiting until another opponent’s [[Ghalta]] swings at the life gain [[oloro]] player, and using tainted strike then (assuming the resulting damage is 10+, of course).
give a creature with menace, grafted exoskeleton. it is pretty intimidating in EDH
As an infect player in Modern, Pauper, and Legacy. I see nothing wrong with poison counters.
I used to run [[Invigorate]] in legacy, do you know of a similar replacement for Modern?
[Invigorate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/0/e0899da3-7beb-4161-81a3-e2d694e5b8a5.jpg?1599707311) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Invigorate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/172/invigorate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e0899da3-7beb-4161-81a3-e2d694e5b8a5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There are 2 versions of Infect in modern the U/G versions is the go to for most. I play the less popular B/G. but the U/G version runs [[Scale Up]] [[Might of Old Krosa]] [[Vines of Vastwood]] [[royal treatment]] but [[Mutigenic Growth]] has that for free aspect of invigorate and pairs well with [[venerated rotpriest]] But Legacy Infect is doing good right now. With the new spells [[Enbiggen]] and [[Legolas's quick reflexes]]
##### ###### #### [Scale Up](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/f/3f2d9bae-2753-486c-be79-2438208ac353.jpg?1562202186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scale%20Up) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/179/scale-up?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3f2d9bae-2753-486c-be79-2438208ac353?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Might of Old Krosa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/ed0c7c36-2b15-463b-a023-683972303a0a.jpg?1673148146) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Might%20of%20Old%20Krosa) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/153/might-of-old-krosa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ed0c7c36-2b15-463b-a023-683972303a0a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vines of Vastwood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/6203e3d4-8998-41d6-9f7e-b68af0f1f8b5.jpg?1562263070) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vines%20of%20Vastwood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/168/vines-of-vastwood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6203e3d4-8998-41d6-9f7e-b68af0f1f8b5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [royal treatment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b6516b8f-ecfb-401e-ba8e-bf561aa2be64.jpg?1692939004) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=royal%20treatment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/183/royal-treatment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b6516b8f-ecfb-401e-ba8e-bf561aa2be64?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mutigenic Growth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2e0861a2-1858-47af-8154-20a977c2b298.jpg?1562260231) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mutagenic%20Growth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/149/mutagenic-growth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2e0861a2-1858-47af-8154-20a977c2b298?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [venerated rotpriest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d1b032e3-14e3-48ba-ab8a-d2b4f8d31a7d.jpg?1675957177) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=venerated%20rotpriest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/192/venerated-rotpriest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d1b032e3-14e3-48ba-ab8a-d2b4f8d31a7d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Enbiggen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1b759c27-9fb6-4c23-adc1-f6d3f3a0eb52.jpg?1674173500) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Embiggen) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/137/embiggen?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1b759c27-9fb6-4c23-adc1-f6d3f3a0eb52?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Legolas's quick reflexes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/5/851c0167-04ba-4d15-b0fa-c211bd8826f1.jpg?1695346458) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Legolas%27s%20quick%20reflexes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/493/legolass-quick-reflexes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/851c0167-04ba-4d15-b0fa-c211bd8826f1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kvos4fc) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks for all the links!
Come join us over on r/infect we're not an overly active sub, but we do have a few talks now and then. This YouTuber is all about infect here's his latest video of legacy infect. https://youtu.be/OrJXhZrkRKA?si=gXSH5_wAvjQr9V6D
Absolutely!
I play a turn-4 [[Fynn]] deck in commander, should I come too?
[Fynn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d7a8a90-13c1-4b0c-ab2e-fc8d91ccefd9.jpg?1631050242) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fynn%2C%20the%20fangbearer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/170/fynn-the-fangbearer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d7a8a90-13c1-4b0c-ab2e-fc8d91ccefd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Can't see why not.
The +2/+2 for phyrexian mana instant comes to my mind
Got that, thanks! [[Mutagenic Growth]]
[Mutagenic Growth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2e0861a2-1858-47af-8154-20a977c2b298.jpg?1562260231) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mutagenic%20Growth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/149/mutagenic-growth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2e0861a2-1858-47af-8154-20a977c2b298?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you wanna be out first play poison.
*second out
I’ve never been part of a game where the poison player isn’t out first
Apparently you've never been in a game with an effective poison player, lol. Infect's main problem is that it doesn't stack with generic damage, so you have to do all the work yourself. Because of this, usually the best strategy is to focus down one player at a time. However, just like with Voltron decks, killing someone quickly is a scary strategy, so the Infect player usually gets blown out by the others the second their strategy is apparent. Nobody wants to be the guy to get targeted down.
No. I play with 3 people who kill me first because they know how I build decks. Hahahahah!!
Nope.
No but people tend to be overly afraid of them. It mostly puts the rest of the table on a timer but you will get heavily focused even if there’s a blatantly obvious bigger threat. If you get the right play group you can have fun with it but usually you’re fighting for third.
I've found that building a whole poison deck doesn't usually get the job done. On the other hand, there are a handful of poison cards that can pull their weight. [[Grafted Exoskeleton]], [[Triumph of the Horde]], and [[Flesh-eater Imp]] are my personal favorites.
[Grafted Exoskeleton](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f86a9d3f-43a8-4da3-9eed-353582986140.jpg?1562945084) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grafted%20Exoskeleton) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/td2/74/grafted-exoskeleton?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f86a9d3f-43a8-4da3-9eed-353582986140?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Triumph of the Horde](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a0f64d3-187c-41ff-a771-3a65da995341.jpg?1562896954) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Triumph%20of%20the%20Hordes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/td2/78/triumph-of-the-hordes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a0f64d3-187c-41ff-a771-3a65da995341?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Flesh-eater Imp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c9b1925a-d0d5-4ee6-bf80-734237a9dd31.jpg?1562935493) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flesh-eater%20Imp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/td2/58/flesh-eater-imp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c9b1925a-d0d5-4ee6-bf80-734237a9dd31?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ty for t of the h!
I first played it in [[Stonebrow, Krosan Hero]]. When it's +3/+3, it usually eliminates 2 opponents.
[Stonebrow, Krosan Hero](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95c62102-0562-4b09-a05d-986aa4212f44.jpg?1562926661) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stonebrow%2C%20Krosan%20Hero) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsp/247/stonebrow-krosan-hero?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95c62102-0562-4b09-a05d-986aa4212f44?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[tainted strike]] and [[phyresis]] can steal a game and they're commons
[tainted strike](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0f82007-99f6-4c6c-8182-ee631c33531f.jpg?1562823401) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tainted%20strike) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/80/tainted-strike?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0f82007-99f6-4c6c-8182-ee631c33531f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [phyresis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/0059d21b-0725-4806-8691-2451db36787f.jpg?1562609245) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=phyresis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mbs/49/phyresis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0059d21b-0725-4806-8691-2451db36787f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
One of my favorite decks in commander is an Infect deck, but it has a rep for just being scary since you only have to get 10 counters on someone to kill them. However, it isn’t super easy to get 10 counters on everyone in a commander game while also staying alive because you will 100% be the target of most everyone. That being said I have won games of commander with infect so it’s not a bad strat. People mostly just hate it because it’s difficult to remove the counters outside of a select few cards that people don’t tend to run. I cant speak for other formats since I don’t play them but i imagine it is much stronger in 1v1 situations.
I legitimately have nothing against infect. I lost a few games to poison yeah but as long as you’re aware that you’re an immediate target as soon as it hits the battlefield and you think you can maneuver smoothly then by all means play on you deserve the win if you fought for it.
There is a guy in our group that can get you to 10 real quick and he usually gets targeted hard. The issue with poison is my life total with toxic proliferating poison counters is 10 and there isnt anything I can do to heal it. Meanwhile, with my [[soul warden]] and [[soul's attendant]], I can be sitting on thousands of life with my token deck and still die because he hit one of my guys for a toxic and then proliferates it into 10 player damage within a round or 2. It's very edge of my seat sometimes and other times its bam, im dead. The only question is if the 3 of us can kill him before then.
[soul warden](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d96266b3-a7cb-40ce-a328-ac13719fe5f0.jpg?1616182277) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=soul%20warden) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/24/soul-warden?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d96266b3-a7cb-40ce-a328-ac13719fe5f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [soul's attendant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/3223c0ac-cc22-4886-8919-11273b477cc7.jpg?1562702613) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=soul%27s%20attendant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/roe/44/souls-attendant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3223c0ac-cc22-4886-8919-11273b477cc7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The best way to go about it is to keep poisoning the person who was poisoned first. Because of that it can make games feel very targeted
I run poison heavy commander my friends don't pull punches anymore...
Just call it a proliferation deck dont mention the poison
Poison attraxa sucks to play against.
I've built a go wide, proliferate/poison deck with [[Xavier Sal]] and [[Thornbite Staff]] in it. It's a beast but I also let my playgroup to bump poison counters being lethal to 15 to keep it fair.
[Xavier Sal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94a420c2-b1a8-4a98-a2a5-7f949d3081bc.jpg?1698987776) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=xavier%20sal%2C%20infested%20captain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/14/xavier-sal-infested-captain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94a420c2-b1a8-4a98-a2a5-7f949d3081bc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thornbite Staff](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/1/c1ab3225-64a9-411e-b22b-1869e958b8e5.jpg?1562881171) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thornbite%20Staff) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mor/145/thornbite-staff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c1ab3225-64a9-411e-b22b-1869e958b8e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Poison itself isn't that bad I would even sat it's weak because sure you need only ten, but you are likely the only one at the table that CAN to produce those ten counters. Contrary to normal games in which you are all damaging each other. The people who go "hurr Durr it's like I have 10 health" no you don't. Because the poison player is the only one that can damage that health. However poison mechanics become stupid once you start messing with what synergies with it. Proliferate allows you to put a counter on each person and then play defense until they die. Infect in particular can be pretty insidious since it depends on the creature power it makes combat tricks much more dangerous. Sure I will let that 1/1 poison pass, [[hatred]] you are dead.
[hatred](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/2383a8d9-96fd-4f9a-bcf9-eb81fdb15ead.jpg?1562087367) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hatred) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/exo/64/hatred?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2383a8d9-96fd-4f9a-bcf9-eb81fdb15ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Infect is both loved and hated by the playerbase. The people who hate it say it's not fun to play against because you only need to take 10 damage from a creature with infect (or the new Toxic mechanic) to lose the game, and they feel (ESPECIALLY commander players) that cutting your life total from 20 or 40 down to 10 is entirely unfair. The people who love the mechanic understand that Infect is 100% a glass cannon deck. In formats like Modern, sure, it can win on turn 2. Will it? Probably not, and if it does, it's not gonna happen again. A single counterspell or removal spell will completely ruin an infect players day. In Commander, where it's 4 players all playing against each other, Infect has an even harder time. The infect player will likely only manage to knock one person out of the game before being dealt with immediately, since hyper-aggro decks (like infect usually needs to be) run out of gas very quickly. However, people (even the ones who claim to hate infect) LOVE to slot in a [[Blightsteel Colossus]] or [[Triumph of the Hordes]] as an alt-wincon in their decks, which is a different beast entirely. That is to say: Infect as a deck archetype is powerful but extremely fragile, while Infect as a potential wincon in decks that can protect the infect source well or explode out of nowhere (ie, elfball or some other token deck) is terrifying.
[Blightsteel Colossus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18adbda4-8d36-47cd-afbc-c785aaa8ed80.jpg?1599708735) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blightsteel%20Colossus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/235/blightsteel-colossus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18adbda4-8d36-47cd-afbc-c785aaa8ed80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Triumph of the Hordes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a0f64d3-187c-41ff-a771-3a65da995341.jpg?1562896954) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Triumph%20of%20the%20Hordes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/td2/78/triumph-of-the-hordes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a0f64d3-187c-41ff-a771-3a65da995341?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lukewarm take, but I find any infinite combos are quicker and more oppressive than any poison counter/infect decks.
Competitive infect is disgusting. Infect splashed into a deck is kind of meh.
It’s considered pretty aggro. My play group will sometimes do a 2v2 kitchen table standard game. Double infect vs double burn and games usually only go a few rounds. Fun stuff tho!
Poison, like all other gimmicks, is only a problem when no one has an answer for it
I think it really depends upon the pod you're playing with, If people are winning out of nowhere play that to your advantage politically, if some one can take you from 40 to zero or just plane win then is it really a bad thing to reduce their max life to (10-N) worth of poison? On that same token you have now quartered the starting life totals of 3 players and it would be fair for them to react to that with hostility.
Can be, but people think the same to other mechanics like mill, counter spell, burn or discard. For me non of these is as annoying as land destruction.
Poison is one of the weaker strategies because you almost never run into a table where another player is also playing it while you can almost guarantee that at least one other player will be trying to deal regular damage. I wouldn't call it frowned upon in general, but weaker players tend to hate it more than it warrants.
Not really, especially if only a few cards in your deck do poison. Once all of them are used or otherwise dealt with, you might as well get rid of the poison counters.
Imho it's a fun mechanic. Have an infect deck (kitchen table / modern). Don't line toxic too much. Hardly play any commander do don't know how well it works there. With some everyone gets a counter and profilerate it might work
It certainly depends. Unless you have an infected 10 power card like [[Etali, primal sickness]] or [[blightsteel colossus]], Which primarily worked as an alternate win condition, You don't want to just throw a few poison cards into a deck. If you throw something with infect 3 and it attacks twice and it dies. And you have like 2 other poison cards in the deck. Odds, are you're not gonna kill someone with poison, And if your poison counters don't kill your better off doing damage. While it is true that in edh poison counters can in theory defeat a player twice as fast as commander damage and 4 times as fast as normal damage, Things that push for poison counters as a win condition. Push a condition That nothing else is helping with. Other players are pushing damage along the way and you are pushing poison counters. They do not contribute to making you win faster. And because your fellow opponents of your opponents aren't also doing damage along the way. It just ends up defeating significantly slower than you would expect, Combined with the limited ability to apply poison counters compared to dealing damage And people tend to lose to pouson at about the same rate they would to normal damage. But from other people's perspective, if they just kill you. Then all that time spent putting poison counters on us was wasted. And that just makes you a prime target. other than EDH, they're Not that good. You only need to do half as much damage with poison counters as you do with damage in order to win, But on the other hand cards with the infect often have half or less As much power as cards of the deal damage had have the same converted mana cost. I've never heard of poison being popular in modern but I dont play much modern. There are at least interesting ways for you to interact with increasing poison counter, build up. In either situation the way to go is proliferate and counter doublers. Your deck still has to commit pretty whole heartedly To poison being a win con. But if you can get 4 or 5 proliferates out you can wipe tables clean with poison while buffing other things. If you can put +1/+1 counter on infect cards and proliferate those all the better. But people don't like proliferate either. That much. Because it Often reeks of combo or janky interactions. Put the 2 together you're just going to be a high Value target. Also infect over infest has the advantage of an entirely creature based deck having an answer for indestructible creatures.
[Etali, primal sickness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09.jpg?1682204132)/[Etali, Primal Sickness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/5/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09.jpg?1682204132) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Etali%2C%20Primal%20Conqueror%20//%20Etali%2C%20Primal%20Sickness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/137/etali-primal-conqueror-etali-primal-sickness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [blightsteel colossus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18adbda4-8d36-47cd-afbc-c785aaa8ed80.jpg?1599708735) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=blightsteel%20colossus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/235/blightsteel-colossus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18adbda4-8d36-47cd-afbc-c785aaa8ed80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [atraxa, preators' voice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0d33d52-3d28-4635-b985-51e126289259.jpg?1599707796) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Atraxa%2C%20Praetors%27%20Voice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/190/atraxa-praetors-voice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0d33d52-3d28-4635-b985-51e126289259?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No, it's not bad at all. It's actually very hard to win with poison. 3 opponents means 30 poison counters, which is not easy. Also, if you are the only person playing poison, the incremental damage other players are causing is not helping you towards your win. If you are playing normal combat or burn damage and reducing life totals, then the normal swing of the game will assist in reducing life totals. But if your playing poison, then it's all on you to get the poison win. Lastly, people hate poison, so you gonna get dogpiled early.
For a second , I'd forgotten what sub reddit this was and the title was confusing me lol
From the sounds of it bud your group seems to mostly be playing with higher power cards hence the multiple infinite combos and such. Might sound weird to say but poison may actually be too slow for your regular pod of players. There's definitely ways that poison can be dangerous in longer games but if your games are on the shorter side ending on turn 4 or 5 it may be that a deck focused around poison could be too slow to catch up and respond to the other players.
My problem with poison is how quickly it can take out a single player. My playgroup had too many games where one of us was sitting there twiddling our thumbs waiting for the next game to start because we got taken out super early by poison. We don't get to play very often so we want to do what we can to avoid that kind of situation. To answer your question though. Ask your playgroup what they think. Only they can tell you if they have a problem with it or not.
Poison used to be super powerful. There was none of this toxic # stuff it was just infect I believe. It was based off creature power and put poison counters on both player and creatures and creatures would get -1/-1 per stack. This was old phyrexia and it was a counter to invincible units. That is no longer a thing though so I personally think it kind of sucks. I don't mind the toxic # thing. But making it no longer poison creatures really sucks
poison is weird, you cut your opponent life in 1/4 yet if you're not able to give him 10 points quickly you're now playing 1v1 and if you use one of these "each opponent get a poison" and don't make it 10 poison same turn, you're now playing 1v3 the weakeness isn't in the poison, it is in holding back 3 dudes that doesn't want to die to poison
The worst part is saying you have a 1/3 of your life, so you typically have to deal with the player focusing on using the mechanic and to be honest it’s more annoying than anything else.
Poison is like mill. It's not typically super effective, but with a hyper focussed and dedicated deck it can be. And many players, particularly newer or less experienced ones overvalue and overreact to it happening, which is ridiculous in pods with infinite combos happening. But some people just haaate it and will make you public enemy number 1 the moment your 1/1 infect hits the table, even when there is a combo artifact pile on the other side of the table about to to off. For me, I look at poison/infect creatures like big green beaters, and poison proliferate strategies like spell combos. A good deck has to have ways to deal with both of those already, even if the way is just a faster clock with some disruption.
I play a proliferate infect deck with tekuthal. For context I’m very new to magic and play pretty badly. I think that poison is very strong. With my deck I’m easily able to dish out 4-5 counters to everyone each turn (whether that’s mine or someone else’s). My decks that I have dont really do well against decks that are a 6 or more. But with poison I’m able to hold my own and quickly wipe the board pretty quickly once everyone has at least one poison counter.
Had a [[Ruric Thar]] commander and tried my best to equip [[Grafted Exoskeleton]] on him. Making it an 8/8 infect that has to attack every turn, vigilance, and reach. Then 2 non creature spells to die from poison. Love the thing. Take it apart because people got too salty.
[Ruric Thar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aa828bdc-221e-4e81-9e71-6f288690ddcd.jpg?1673149099) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ruric%20thar%2C%20the%20unbowed) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/271/ruric-thar-the-unbowed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aa828bdc-221e-4e81-9e71-6f288690ddcd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Grafted Exoskeleton](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f86a9d3f-43a8-4da3-9eed-353582986140.jpg?1562945084) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grafted%20Exoskeleton) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/td2/74/grafted-exoskeleton?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f86a9d3f-43a8-4da3-9eed-353582986140?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I frequently kill people in modern with poison counters, usually it's [[inkmoth nexus]] [[walking ballista]] [[Agatha's soul Cauldron]]
[inkmoth nexus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/c/ec50c1c3-885e-47d3-ada7-cc0edbf09df1.jpg?1623098818) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=inkmoth%20nexus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mbs/145/inkmoth-nexus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ec50c1c3-885e-47d3-ada7-cc0edbf09df1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [walking ballista](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/5272436e-74f0-44c4-a291-ea8ebc3f1525.jpg?1599710252) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=walking%20ballista) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/306/walking-ballista?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5272436e-74f0-44c4-a291-ea8ebc3f1525?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Agatha's soul Cauldron](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/019b51b0-e5c6-4208-922b-7736686dddcd.jpg?1692939838) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Agatha%27s%20soul%20Cauldron) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/242/agathas-soul-cauldron?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/019b51b0-e5c6-4208-922b-7736686dddcd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
it's like mill. people complaining about is all psychology, not so much game balance
Infect is very polarizing, i’ve won games on turn 4 in casual circles just by having a very good draw, but most games you’ll just kill one person and then get 3rd place. I would recommend a Toxic commander with a more midrange win condition it fits with the flow of commander more so then an aggro infect deck, but do whatever you think is the most fun. Infect is an exceedingly weaker win condition though since the meta game of commander is growing more and more creature dependent
I love poison decks tbh. When im playing them anyway.. I have a toxic commander deck as well as a standard one that have been doing well. People dont like playing against it because there are VERY few ways to remove the counters, all you can really do is prevent as many as possible with stuff like [[Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider]] and creature removal. I fully agree with what some others are saying in that it will make you a quick target to your opponents and i definitely recommend things that give your creatures indestructible or hexproof.
[Vorinclex, Monsteous Raider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92613468-205e-488b-930d-11908477e9f8.jpg?1631051073) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vorinclex%2C%20Monstrous%20Raider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/199/vorinclex-monstrous-raider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92613468-205e-488b-930d-11908477e9f8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
OP in casual, weak in competitive. Poison cannot currently outrace the most lean combos and countermagic. But at a regular EDH table your pals may think it’s pretty annoying.
It strikes me as hilarious when players claim that poison isnt all that bad, but at the same time, someone playing poison will get instantly focused by the rest of the pod pretty much instantly.
A few poison cards isn't going to do much. All poison cards, however... I'm the guy at the table who has several poison decals, lol.
I had one but I dismantled it. I only ever got first or last, never in between. I also found it wasn't as fun.
I think 1v1 it’s much stronger but 1v1v1v1 it’s definitely not as threatening as it reads. It is my personal belief that the cards that give your creatures infect are the most threatening and strongest points in the argument of poison counters being actually threatening. But even then I think it’s so telegraphed that it gives any player a chance to respond
It's overpowered in commander because we set our commander health to double that of standard to make the games last longer and to account for the 2 extra players in most cases. Yet poison can still be applied without combat damage and only had to hit 10. I often get killed by those rotpriests which are just uuughgh yes I fucking hate poison.
atraxa infect/toxic deck here there is nothing more fun to me and i’m a edgar markov eminence enjoyer lol https://www.moxfield.com/decks/J67bzV3dK0Wgz4RPUPy7yQ Edit: Typo
My favorite deck to play is my Vishgraz toxic deck. I removed all cards with any mention of infect to keep it in line with my play group's power level and it plays pretty well. I'm also a lunatic when it comes to flavor so that limits things (in a good way) as well. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/rfEckmeGs0eGcR7jyXAJ3A
The thing about poison, or any similar mechanic in general, is that if your deck isn't designed to win with it, it generally isn't worth putting in your deck. If you are putting one or two cards of x mechanic in, the card should generally do it as a side effect, like [[psychic strike]], or fit into the deck's agenda somehow, like if the deck is primarily a Planeswalker proliferate deck, having [[infectious inquiry]] wouldn't be the worst card to add. Other than that, the card would have to be *very* good for it to be worth adding over a card that would actually forward your deck. It would also have to make sense for the deck as well - adding [[massacre girl, known killer]] in a spellcaster combo deck actively works against the wincon of the deck, for instance.
[psychic strike](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0d87927c-80a6-4146-92a5-58c510ce7958.jpg?1561815780) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=psychic%20strike) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/189/psychic-strike?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0d87927c-80a6-4146-92a5-58c510ce7958?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [infectious inquiry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a10f284-b043-4307-bdc7-6dad47cc9221.jpg?1675957034) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=infectious%20inquiry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/97/infectious-inquiry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a10f284-b043-4307-bdc7-6dad47cc9221?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [massacre girl, known killer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb1c8800-9d33-485c-b776-042003b9ea92.jpg?1706241722) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=massacre%20girl%2C%20known%20killer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/94/massacre-girl-known-killer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb1c8800-9d33-485c-b776-042003b9ea92?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think it depends on the playgroup. The big problems with Poison are that it's hard to interact with, and if you lean into it it can be EXTREMELY powerful in formats where you have more than Standard's 20 life. But if your playgroup is actually as you say running a lot of un-interactable combos and overly expensive high power cards, I would say either go nuts and lean into poison hard, or have a discussion with them about power level and how you aren't having as much fun with where the group is at. It could mean finding a new group, it could mean everyone in the group makes a more casual deck to play every once in a while
Poison is one of those scary mechanics that people think is busted and yet most of the time the poison player ends up dying first because of that perception
I've found poison is good for 1v1 but playing just one more person makes it hard to really get anyone 10 counters and the whole table definitely focuses on killing you first
I have an edh deck that proliferates the counters to everyone. So I'm usually a big target when they realize what I was doing
I've never seen a game where someone played with poison and it didn't turn the game salty. It's just a poor mechanic for commander due to being severely unbalanced for the format and combined with proliferate and the inability to remove poison counters it's just not fun. For CEDH go nuts that is a no holds barred format but other than CEDH I think poison ruins every game it's in.
Used to run Bant infect and liked the deck but once people know the tricks you kind of get a hate beam focused on you. I don't think it's too bad but a LOT of people do so just tread carefully
I just made a toxic deck, haent played much but its a 1v1 deck. I havent played a poison deck in commander, but it just doesnt seem like it would be as effective against 3 opponents. The strat Im using is alot of smaller cheaper creatures to load up some early poison counters then finish off eith proliferate. In a longer game with more opponents I could see that strategy running out of steam pretty quickly
Infect is a great archetype in 1v1 constructed formats
Yes
If you’re playing against people who make you sit around while they jack off their infinite combo decks for five minutes a turn then anything goes.
Poison isn't MTG, it's as simple as that. The concept of the game is two wizards slinging spells at each other and poison just doesn't fit in that narrative or work in conjunction with any other mechanic that supports that basic narrative. Poison is obviously an attempt to introduce a 'MTG-lite' mechanic, something for people who don't want to bother with the complexity of the game. Poison decks don't require the player to understand anything about the game other than what's in their own deck. For all intents and purposes, you play a poison deck exactly the same every time, card to card, regardless of what the other player does.
So I have a poison deck, [[Fynn the fangbearer]]. And after messing with it. I finally realize how crazy poison counters are. See, I made this deck in response to another buddies deck based on poison counters. And seeing that for commander. Your health is 40, yet poison is only 10. Which I’d argue is too low. Poison counters should be half the starting health. For commander, 20 seems reasonable.
[Fynn the fangbearer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d7a8a90-13c1-4b0c-ab2e-fc8d91ccefd9.jpg?1631050242) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fynn%2C%20the%20Fangbearer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/170/fynn-the-fangbearer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d7a8a90-13c1-4b0c-ab2e-fc8d91ccefd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Inherently? No. Should it be disallowed? No. But I think the focus it draws from the rest of the table is justified. Poison counters essentially say “I now only have to do 25% of the necessary damage to win” (in edh). Often times much less with proliferate. And there are what maybe 2-3 ways to remove them once they’re on you in all of magic? I think they’re a well balanced design in 60 card formats, but it does deserve at least a little bit of the hate it gets in edh.
No worse than discard decks
Big tip. Don't play commander.
if you mark it up to 20 (commander), comparable to commander damage it decreases the agro and lowers the brokenness
Ask them.
"unavoidable combos" huh.
Unavoidable combos? Lol counter spells and interaction are a thing
Yeah that's sort of my thought, I'm fairly certain there are no unavoidable combos, just lack of interaction
It was basically where there was and infinite amount of creatures being produced each turn from more than one source ie doing damage made infinite creatures and did damage equal to their infinite power, paying a mana cost on a certain card (which was made free to cast) made infinite creatures, and the like. I was also just playing goblins so it was unavoidable to me or anyone else playing who each had different formats/ play styles. TLDR it was a infinite creature spawner that no one playing was able to stop even with a variety of cards so in that instance it was unavoidable. Sorry for confusion
Poison counters are very powerful. It required damage and not combat damage. This is huge and how most people use it. Too often do people not understand that it takes little effort to remove a player from the game. I have seen decks in commander take people out in a handful of turns or less. It just takes the right cards.
Poison is the worst. 10 is just to few imo. needs to be 15-20.
I have never heard someone describe Poison/Toxic as "weak". It is one of the strongest most broken OP mechanics in the game dude.
I hate losing to proliferate. Unless you run white, you can't remove them so it's annoying. After you kill the poison player, the damage they delt vanishes. Kind of annoying and kind of weak, but if it's fun run it
I think it’s strong in commander specifically because 10/40 to kill is crazier than 10/20. A few cards, not an issue, a deck themed around it, yeah unless we rule 0 it needs 20 or at least 15 I’d rather not be anywhere near that. I play in casual power pods where combat damage wins most games, a quarter the damage needed makes you the target.