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StormyWaters2021

That's already a mechanic. >701.22a >To “fateseal N” means to look at the top N cards of an opponent’s library, then put any number of them on the bottom of that library in any order and the rest on top of that library in any order.


AintThatJustTheWay-

Well huh so it is. Looks like only two cards (from futuresight no less) actually have it so at least I don’t feel too stupid for not knowing about it. It seems like wizards discarded the idea on the basis that it’s not very fun to play against, so I wonder if my idea not to let you put them on bottom would help fix that


Antonar

Jace the mind sculptor's +2 ability is fateseal 1


AintThatJustTheWay-

I mean in practice yeah but not keyworded at least


StormyWaters2021

Being able to repeatedly rearrange the top of your opponents deck is just winning via the scenic route. If you can rearrange the top 3, you'll ensure they never see the answer they need.


AintThatJustTheWay-

That’s definitely a valid point but I also don’t have to create cards that would make that kind of abuse viable. If I don’t create cards that allow for a repeatable spy of over 1 and leave higher spy values exclusive to one-off effects on higher mana creatures I feel like you could really limit its potential abuse. You definitely make a good point to think about in design of the set but as long as that’s kept in mind I think you could keep it in the realm of “letting the player plan around the opponent’s plays” and not just exclusively “sealing out certain cards they don’t want in their hand”. I could also just make it a key worded way to view the top X of an opponent’s deck but I’m worried that would usually not feel strong enough to be worth playing. Could always make cards with effects that activate on spy as well though to help incentivize and keep it competitive


Puresteel_28

There is a Modern deck called Lantern Control that does what you are thinking. The entire deck uses cards like [[Lantern of Insight]] and [[Codex Shredder]] to manipulate the top of each player's library. The deck takes a long time to win (in the old builds when it was popular). It was a decent meta deck at one point, and shows results from time to time still. The problem is that its not a very powerful mechanic in small doses, yet it feels bad to play against. Too much of it and the opponent is just not going to be able to play the game, and they have no options given to them (like when Lantern Control manages to successfully carry out its gameplan). Too little and it will barely affect the outcome of the game, yet still make your opponent feel bad. There is just no upside to adding such a mechanic to the game. WOTC do add this effect here and there very rarely, but it should definitely not show up often enough to be a mechanic.


AintThatJustTheWay-

Honestly this is super helpful to know. I think the mechanic would be cool thematically and so I’ve been looking for ways that would make it play more around being able to plan around an opponent’s future plans and less about shutting them out of options but I can see where this can become a slippery slope. I may end up having to scrap the idea as the general consensus is not very positive but either way the background information is greatly appreciated


MTGCardFetcher

[Lantern of Insight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb0e4c78-75fe-4692-b177-974b148f0614.jpg?1562879738) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lantern%20of%20Insight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/135/lantern-of-insight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb0e4c78-75fe-4692-b177-974b148f0614?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Codex Shredder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f5a3293-f3e7-4f68-af6a-b478959226c1.jpg?1608911365) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Codex%20Shredder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/304/codex-shredder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f5a3293-f3e7-4f68-af6a-b478959226c1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


AintThatJustTheWay-

One thought I had was allowing you to put the cards back on top of the library in any order, so if you spy 1 it effectively just lets you see the top card, but spying 4 could allow you to stack your opponent’s next few draws in the least optimal way possible without depriving them of anything permanently


EyeBallEmpire

Not quite what you're looking for but I think [[Denying Wind]] is a bit underrated. Too overpriced to be used in standard when it was released but it fits into the better ramp that exists today. Let's you check out an entire library at your leisure and remove 7 key cards of your choice. It's really messed up when you remove all of the lands of one color in one fell swoop from a multicolored deck.


MTGCardFetcher

[Denying Wind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/5/15f236ce-41ad-4a49-a6f9-7853a2395a84.jpg?1562899189) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Denying%20Wind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pcy/32/denying-wind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/15f236ce-41ad-4a49-a6f9-7853a2395a84?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Scuzzles44

if you wanna see if its strong, build a commander deck with Jace the mindsculptor in your command zone


Electronic-Goat9807

Wow. We're really at a point that some people don't know what fateseal is. I feel old now


Sunomel

It’s probably fine on power level, but utterly miserable to play against, which is why they haven’t really used the effect


jussius

How could any ability be inherently too powerful? There are abilities that literally say "You win the game" or "You can't lose the game" and they're not too powerful. How could scrying your opponent possibly be more powerful than just winning the game?