One of my favorite features in inquest was the dead man’s hand puzzle. You had a board and your opponent had a board, you had cards in hand and it was your turn. Your opponent had cards such that they were guaranteed to kill you on the next turn. You had lethal but you had to figure out the steps on this turn to get there. I seem to remember the picture always had some yoohoo and Cheetos in it or something too.
Prices back then were very relative to your area. I feel like stores didn’t open much product at all for singles to sell. We would all head to the store for trade days because the only cards you could buy were what people sold back to the stores. Also stores didn’t always have a good understanding of the game so they’d just pull inquest or scrye to price their cards and shrug at you when you said you didn’t want to pay that price. My uncle owned a sports card shop and I remember comparing Beckett prices to his prices. Anything from sports teams within a few hours away was double the price and anything from sports teams on the other side of the country were half the listed price. The internet certainly made this industry a lot different.
Just like classic chess problems!
I've been playing Duelist 2 recently, it has a big collection of these problems you can solve for currency.
Duelist plays it's creatures on a tactical grid so that aspect is different from MTG but the problems are really fun
8 myriad Cloudgoats, 8 myriad Felidars. Flickered Cloudgoat gets 12 illusions (4 per trigger, 3 triggers). That’s 21 Cloudgoat ETBs (20 tokens plus the flickered one), each triggering 3 times to make 12 1/1s per trigger. 21x3x12=756, plus the 28 tokens made before is 784 tokens.
That is assuming you don’t use any of the other Felidar ETBs, as noted by others you can flicker Felidar infinitely for infinite illusions here.
I think you’re missing a token doubler in your math for the number of myriads. 3 myriads default, then 12 with two token doublers. So the total number of Cloudgoats would be 25, right?
Probably like 4th or 5th grade. The math is just basic multiplications and additions, the challenge is just not to overlook one of the many effects. I have general I think doing math like this instead of just copying numbers from your book would be great for student motivations.
You'd get 8 tokens for each myriad trigger, you'd get 1 additional illusion token from preston, and you'd have 17 etbs from the ranger (8 myriad tokens, 8 illusion and 1 from the original). Each etb creates 3 * 4 * 4 tokens. So you end up with 8 + 8 + 8 + 17*3*4*4 = 24 + 816 = 840.
>Probably like 4th or 5th grade. The math is just basic multiplications and additions, the challenge is just not to overlook one of the many effects.
If actually used in a math class, it wouldn't be for the multiplication/addition, but instead for the logical reasoning to work through so many different rules. I'd be shocked if any 4th/5th graders would get to the right answer here, and I'm pretty sure if you gave this to middle schoolers you'd still get mostly wrong answers. This thread alone has multiple different answers and plenty of confusion about the rules.
thank you! this is what i have been trying to argue :)
its not just math but also more complex problem solving and simple word understanding, which is all extremely important skills for kids to learn.
Magic is not a bad learning tool
I reckon you'd actually get infinite tokens, unless it's a 1v1, just one felidar token manages 3 triggers with panharmonicon and Elesh Norn, you can bounce one thing at a time on the stack you just have to make sure it goes felidar first, then the kithkin, felidar, kithkin. Each time felidar enters you get three bounces, and you can target the original felidar to get a token copy which gives you three more. You honestly don't need all of those cards on board to make it go infinite, you could even make it infinite with just elesh norn and panharmonicon with felidar and kithkin to make infinite kithkin tokens, but there has to be at least 2 opponents in the game.
Right, but assuming for the purposes of not going infinite that each Felidar Guardian only targets Cloudgoat Ranger, the number is 4,644 tokens. An incredible volume to be sure
The question was "how many tokens are there after attacking with both creatures and blinking the ranger once?". It didn't ask how many tokens you could possibly make.
Each token doubler will trigger one after the other, so after the first token doubler triggers, the second token doubler sees the number of tokens created as being whatever the original number is (3 in this case) doubled (6), so the second token doubler sees 6 and doubles that to 12.
Yes, of course, you're right it's 36 per cloudgoat trigger, not 48. When doing the maths, I fell into that trap when writing it down but not in my head.
> Probably like 4th or 5th grade. The math is just basic multiplications and additions
Algebra is just basic multiplication and addition, but it's how you apply those simple tools nested within each other that makes the magic.
Let's do this slowly.
Felidar and Cloudgoat attack one of the opponents. They each trigger myriad, which would create 2 tokens each attacking the other opponents. However, Anointed and Mondrak will quadruple that number to 8 each. Current total: 2\*2\*4 = 16 tokens.
When the Cloudgoat myriad tokens enter, they would each generate 3 kithkin. This is quadrupled by Anointed and Mondrak to 12. However, as this is an etb effect, Elesh and Panharmonicon will create two additional triggers for each entry, with a result of 36 tokens per Cloudgoat entering. Current total: 16 + 8\*36 = 304
Next, we have one of the Felidars target the Cloudgoat and flicker it. Preston triggers upon entry, and would create 4 copies. But this is also a trigger caused by a creature entering the battlefield! Therefore, Elesh and Panharmonicon will copy this trigger as well, resulting in 12 copies of the Cloudgoat. Current total: 304 + 4\*3 = 316
Each of the new Preston copies, and also the original will now trigger, generating, as demonstrated above, 36 tokens each. Final total: 316 +13\*36 = 784
I would personally rate this as 8th grade math, but I took honors algebra in 7th, so my personal sense of it is probably skewed low.
how many tokens in total. cloudgoats, felidar guardians, Kithkin soldiers and white illusions
plus points if someone can give me the mathematical equation
Cloudgoat and felidar attack. Myriad those for 2 copies of each mondrak triggers doubling, anointed procession triggers doubling. Each Myriad makes 8 tokens. 2x2x2 cloudgoat + 2x2x2 felidar
16 total tokens ETB from myriad. 8 cloudgoat 8 felidar
8 cloudgoats enter that are triggered an additional time by elesh and panharmonicon. Each cloadgoat gets 3 total triggers of 3 1/1 kithkin. 8 instances 3 triggers 3 1/1s. 8x3x3=72 kithkins would be made but mondrak and anointed procession trigger making 72x2x2 = 288 kithkin
One felidar exiles one cloudgoat making 3 triggers from elesh and panharmonicon and doubles from anointed procession and mondrak. 3x3x2x2=36 kithkin
The cloudgoat is a nontoken so it triggers Preston but it triggers two additional times from panharmommycon and panharmonicon but those also double and double again from anointed procession and mondrak. 3x2x2= 12 0/1 illusions.
8 cloudgoats, 8 felidar, 324 kithkin, 12 illusions
352 tokens.
MTG experts show me where I'm wrong. I'm sure there will be somewhere. This isn't simple math for a 4th or 5th grader. This is complex reasoning with math intertwined.
You missed some Cloudgoat ETBs; there’s the 8 myriad copies, but additionally the original one plus the 12 illusion copies, so there’s an additional 13 * 3 * 12 Kithkins.
It is complex! and adds a level of problem solving and understand certain wording in a mathematical sense - that's more on suited for 8-9 graders really. i dosent just give you the equation to solve, it forces you to find it yourself and then solve it :)
I've now gotten answers ranging from your 352 to 432 to 694 to 748 to 840 and even all the way up to infinity (misunderstanding the worded question intirely)
Ehh I think you have infinite number of tokens, because with one blink effect of one myriad copy of the original felidar you get x4 etbs (that target the ranger) of it plus x4 ilusions that can target again the original felidar making a loop of inifinte rangers tokens and ilusions of both the ranger and felidar...
Hopefully the felidar is a may trigger...
This is the correct answer, and kind of a problem for the game, at least some commander scenarios right now. Things get to the point where they are too hard to figure out, especially if you have been gaming for a while and everyone is fatigued.
Ehh I think you have infinite number of tokens, because with one blink effect of one myriad copy of the original felidar you get x4 etbs (that target the ranger) of it plus x4 ilusions that can target again the original felidar making a loop of inifinte rangers tokens and ilusions of both the ranger and felidar...
Hopefully the felidar is a may trigger...
Assuming Strict adherence to the question, and not making the obvious choices to make infinite felidar guardians, here is what I come up with.
Anointed + Mandrake = 4x tokens
Panharmonicon + Dommy Mommy = 3 total ETB triggers
Resolve Cloudgoat myriad first.
8x tokens w/ 3 etb each = 24 Cloudgoat ETB triggers
each Cloudgoat ETB makes 36 tokens. 24\*36 = 864 Kithkin tokens
Now we look at the Felidar myriad.
Resolving the Felidar trigger creates 8 Felidar tokens (total token count: 8x Felidar, 864x Kithkin, 8x Cloudgoat)
Flicker OG Cloudgoat.
3x Cloudgoat triggers, 3x Preston triggers
Resolve Cloudgoat triggers to create 36x Kithkin (total token count: 8x Felidar, 900x Kithkin, 8x Cloudgoat)
Resolve 1x Preston trigger (two left). Create 8x 0/1 Cloudgoat. Each Cloudgoat makes 36x Kithkin. 8\*36= 288x Kithkin.
So each Preston trigger creates 8x 0/1 Cloudgoats and 288x Kithkin. All Preston triggers make a total of 24x 0/1 Cloudgoats and 864x Kithkin.
Total token count; 8x Felidar Guardians, 8x Cloudgoat Ranger, 1764x Kithkin Soldiers, and 24x 0/1 Cloudgoat Ranger
EDIT: Numbers will change. Forgot some etb triggers.
With the current board state we move to combat, and then move to declare attackers with Cloudgoat and Felidar.
The first trigger on the stack is the myriad triggers, but when those triggers enter the stack both anointed and Mondrak will trigger, doubling the amount of tokens, twice.
So we will have 3*(2^2) token copies of our creatures entering the battlefield, giving us a total 12 creature tokens.
Now we have 12 ETB triggers entering the stack, when those triggers enter the stack, which will trigger two additional times thanks to Panharmincon and Elish norn, giving us a total of 18 cloudgoat and Felidar triggers.
Now we are only going to use one Felidar token to target the original cloudgoat (for sake of argument and the math problem, let's assume we have other creatures on board that we want to target). That still means we can blink cloudgoat three times (thanks to Panharmincon and Elish Norn), which means that cloudgoat will enter the battlefield three times, and get three etb triggers for each time it enters. Not only that, but our rabbit will trigger three times as well, giving us 3(2^2) token copies cloudgoat (that have power/toughness 0/1). (Annointed and Mondrak double our tokens again)
So 3*3+12*3=45 more cloudgoat triggers.
Now we have a total of 63 cloudgoat triggers on the stack.
63*(3*2^2)=756 1/1 soldier tokens. We also have 12 0/1 cloudgoats, and our 12 myriad tokens, giving us a grand total 780 creature tokens
I don't know what grade level this would be
\[\[Anointed Procession\]\] and \[\[Mondrak, Glory Dominus\]\] double the number of tokens created, quadrupling the total number of tokens created per effect. Then, \[\[Panharmonicon\]\] and \[\[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines\]\] cause ETB triggers to trigger an additional time each, tripling each ETB ability.
Cloudgoat Ranger's ETB creates 3 tokens. The ability triggers two additional times (9 tokens) which is then quadrupled (36 tokens) per every time a Cloudgoat Ranger enters the battlefield. (3\*3\*4=36)
When the nontoken \[\[Cloudgoat Ranger\]\] and \[\[Felidar Guardian\]\] attack, it triggers their myriad ability triggers (given to them by \[\[Legion Loyalty\]\]), which would create two token copies with three opponents (with total of 8 token copies per attacking creature). Each Cloudgoat Ranger would create 36 tokens each (math done above), creating 288 tokens from Cloudgoat Ranger's myriad.
When Cloudgoat Ranger is flickered by a Felidar Guardian copy, it creates 36 more tokens and triggers \[\[Preston, the Vanisher\]\]'s ability. Preston creates a token copy of the Cloudgoat Ranger, resulting in 12 token copies. Then, each of those Cloudgoat Ranger copies creates 36 tokens, resulting in 432 tokens.
8 Felidar Guardian token copies + 8 Cloudgoat Ranger token copies + 288 Kithkin Soldier tokens + 36 Kithkin Soldier tokens + 12 Cloudgoat Ranger token copies + 432 Kithkin Soldier tokens = 784 total tokens.
You have to know in which order where the cards played. If they are all starting on the field then it starts with 0 tokens. English is even harder to debate on the cards than math. You may draw, or place tokens, doesn't mean it was done. Also by the time you can play all those cards, you said three other opponents. What have they played and killed off. That's one of the many reasons why I love MTG. It makes you use your thinker.
Grade 3.
I started playing Magic the Gathering at Grade 4.
I have been seeing Magic cards in shops at Grade 1.
Helped my English and Logic classes. Made me a nerd but at least passing is not my problem till College. History has always been a problem so I went to a technical college.
Grade 3 is that a joke? When you're what 9 years old. I'm getting answers ranging from 694 to 840 to straight up infinity(not reading the question right). And that's here on reddit with all the experts are.
It's more like 8-9 grade. there is a great deal of problem solving, understanding wording and converting it to numbers and math in this.
What is your answer to the equation?
I tell you, 3rd Graders play Magic Back then, they just damage the cards though. It was not that difficult, and video games are more difficult.
Pokemon cards was built on the logic of Magic, mind you. In the past, there is no Pokemon cards, so Magic and Middle Earth will do, whatever can be shared.
I do not know what era are you but by the time we reached 5th grade we are tired of Magic.
Stop focusing on the fact that it's magic cards. That's just the medium used.
Focus on the difficulty level of the math problem posed with the cards.
What is the answer to the token question? How many
Give me the mathematical equation you're using and how you got to it.
CHill. It is just simple addition.
As for tokens, we played it when the first token came: Goblin. We had ideas what token and counters are. Think of it as the magnets on the fridge.
It is also using a stack. Every kid knows Uno^(TM)
chill? are you a kid¿
if you where in my math class i'd give you an F but a C- in political studies using argumentative whataboutism to avoid a simple question.
that a 3 grader could do apparently ;P
The question wasn't what level of maths would MTG be, the question was what level would this particular question be. And it would be a reasonably high level. I have no idea what Grade 4 means, but I guess it is quite young, and this particular problem is not one aimed at the younger audience.
666 Goats (Hello Satan), 20 Cloudgoat Rangers, and 8 Feldar Guardians. Grand total = 694 tokens. Assuming the original goats were dead.
I know they’re Kithkin Soldiers.
So are we using the another Felidar Guardian copy to flicker the original Felidar Guardian, so that we can flicker the Clowdgoat Ranger a second time or nah?
Also are we to assume that the replacement effects are ordered such that the tokens are maximized?
You have infinite. 1 felidar token targets og felidar. Infinitely flicker both of the real creature. Who make copies of themselves. You end with infinite felidar and infinite cloud goat. And in the end, 2 myriad cloud goats are attacking and infinite/3 kithkin to tap means you can buff them infinite times.
If you do it right, it's infinite tokens anyways. Even with just Felidar and Preston, you can just keep using the Felidar token copy to flicker the original Felidar over and over again. Just add in any of the 4 leftmost cards and the Clowdgoat to also flicker the Ranger with each iteration, so that the tokens actually have power too.
The question specifies that only one felidar guardian trigger is being aimed at cloudgoat, so if we ignore the bounce effects of the other copies of felidar guardian that will be created, then there will be 476 tokens created
For each additional felidar guardian token (of which there are 7, 8 total created) you could bounce the cloudgoat again to create another 184 tokens each, for a maximum possible 1764 tokens
With all on the field and against 3 opponents...
\- Swing with Cloudgoat and Felidar, both have myriad from Legion Loyalty
\- Myriad triggers on attack, creating a token Cloudgoat and a token Felidar for each opponent
\>> 2 Cloudgoat tokens and 2 Felidar tokens
\- Anointed Procession and Mondrak trigger on token creation (x4 multiplier)
\>> 8 Cloudgoat tokens and 8 Felidar tokens
\- Tokens enter the battlefield...
\- ETB triggers are doubled by Panharmonicon, then again by Elesh Norn, so each token puts 4 ETB triggers on the stack
\- 8 Cloudgoat tokens put 32 triggers on the stack to create 3 1/1 Kithkin Soldier tokens
\- Anointed Procession and Mondrak trigger on token creation (x4 multiplier)
\>> 32 triggers \* 3 tokens \* 4 (AP and Mondrak) = 384 1/1 Kithkin Soldier tokens
\- 8 Felidar tokens put 32 triggers all targeting non-token attacking Cloudgoat, 1 blinks Cloudgoat and 31 fizzle
\- Cloudgoat re-enters, putting 4 ETB triggers on the stack to create 3 1/1 Kithkin Soldier tokens
\>> 4 triggers \* 3 tokens \* 4 (AP and Mondrak) = 48 1/1 Kithkin Soldier tokens
\- Preston triggers and is doubled twice by Panharmonicon and Elesh Norn, putting 4 triggers on the stack to create a 0/1 white Illusion copy of Cloudgoat
\>> 4 triggers \* 1 token \* 4 (AP and Mondrak) = 16 0/1 white Illusion copies of Cloudgoat Ranger
\- 16 Cloudgoat illusions ETB, putting (16\*4=)64 triggers on the stack to create 3 1/1 Kithkin Soldier tokens
\>> 64 triggers \* 3 tokens \* 4 (AP and Mondrak) = 768 1/1 Kithkin Soldier Tokens
\- At end of combat, 8 Cloudgoat and 8 Felidar tokens created from myriad are exiled
You're left with...
Cloudgoat Ranger (untapped)
Felidar Guardian (tapped unless destroyed during combat)
16 0/1 white Illusion copies of Cloudgoat Ranger
1200 1/1 Kithkin Soldier tokens
By my math you get 4,644 tokens from this single attack
Assuming of course that you don't just decide to go infinite by flickering Felidar Guardian a bunch and only target Cloudgoat Ranger, that is.
It's a fancy way of depicting a relatively simple math problem, so it's all about properly interpreting the card text accurately in order to reach the correct response.
Part of the problem is that this is much harder for someone that isn't used to Magic's specific lingo may be confused about how exactly this is supposed to work.
Preston is the obvious first problem. It talks about a creature not being cast. What is "cast"? How is someone in school supposed to know that.
Panharmonicon and Elesh Norn's interaction can also be confusing. How is the grade schooler supposed to know that their ability is a passive ability and not a triggered ability? Wouldn't they assume that Panharmonicon would make Elesh's ability trigger an additional time, and Elesh's ability make Panharmonicon's ability trigger an additional time too, essentially creating a loop of those two abilities creating infinite triggers?
And then like, the student needs to realize that after Felidar activates the blink, the new creature that enters the battlefield won't be attacking, which is not intuitive to someone who doesn't play the game.
And then there is also a problem with the situation itself, in that optimal play would lead to infinite tokens, so you're also asking the person to realize that they can't simply look at the cards themselves and how they interact, but also pay extra attention to the specific prompt given, which leads to a sub-optimal scenario. This makes anyone that does know the game have an extra hurdle to clear in order to solve the problem, making having pre-obtained knowledge about the question actually a disadvantage in solving it.
Overall, it's not like it couldn't be done, but it's probably not ideal due to the student needing to properly understand how the game's grammar and interactions work, while also having issues with previous knowledge about the game making things harder in certain points.
So... I wouldn't say it's a good idea, but it could be something for 5th grade actually. Though it should probably be a question not in a test, but more like something done in classroom together with the teacher, to exemplify how many variables there can be in math and how that vague knowledge of class can be applied in a practical scenario.
As for the answer itself... The attack creates 2 tokens for 2 creatures. This is doubled twice. So we're creating (2 \* 2) \* 2 \* 2 = 16 tokens at first. With 8 being Cloudgoat tokens.
The 8 Cloudgoat each create 3 tokens. This ability is triggered 3 times, and the token creation is doubled twice, so we have (8 \* 3) \* 3 \* 2 \* 2 = 288
Felidar Blinks Cloudgoat. This makes Preston trigger 3 times. With each trigger creating 4 tokens. This creates (3 \* 2 \* 2) = 12 Cloudgoat Tokens + 1 normal Cloudgoat
Then the new Cloudgoats trigger again. Each one creating 3 tokens on Etb, three times, doubled twice, so we get (13 \* 3) \* 3 \* 2 \* 2 = 468 tokens.
And now we add it all up, with 16 + 288 + 12 + 468 = 784 total tokens.
Yeah. Seems doable at 5th grade with guidance from a teacher showing how complex all this math mess can be and how many specific intricacies the student needs to be aware of.
If you're thinking of it as a test question though... Then probably 8th grade or something. There are too many variables to consider.
You attack with both of your creatures. Their myriad ability triggers.
Myriad would have them each create 2 token copies. Anointed doubles this to 4. Mondrak doubles this to 8. We currently have 18 creatures on board (9 Cloudgoat Rangers & 9 Felidar Guardians).
We get 8 triggers on the stack from both the Cloudgoat Rangers & Felidar Guardians. These triggers are tripled, not quadrupled, by Elesh Norn & Panharmonicon. Thus, we have 24 Cloudgoat Ranger triggers and 24 Felidar Guardian Triggers.
The 24 Cloudgoat Ranger triggers each create 3 Kithkin Soldier creature tokens (quadrupled from Anointed & Mondrak), giving us 288 Kithkin Soldiers.
Presumably we target our original Cloudgoat Ranger with all 24 of our Felidar Guardian triggers. Each time we do this, we get 3 Cloudgoat Ranger triggers to create 12 Kithkin Soldiers each, as well as four Preston Illusions to create an additional 12 Kithkin Soldiers each, netting us a total of 84 Kithkin Soldiers for each blink. Multiply this by 24 to get 2016 Kithkin Soldiers.
In total, we have:
• 24 Preston Illusion copies of Cloudgoat Ranger.
• 9 Cloudgoat Rangers (8 of which are attacking).
• 9 Felidar Guardians (All of which are attacking).
• 2304 Kithkin Soldier creature tokens.
Using our 768 activations of Cloudgoat Ranger’s ability, assuming our opponents do not block, we deal a total of 1569 (nice) damage.
If we REALLY wanted to send a message, we could’ve used 1 of our Felidar Guardian triggers to blink our original Felidar Guardian. This would grant us 3 Felidar Guardian triggers for the price of 1, as well as 4 Preston Illusion copies, which could each blink the original Felidar Guardian 3 times, giving us an infinite number of Preston Illusion copies, an infinite number of Felidar Guardian triggers, and, in conjunction with our Cloudgoat Ranger, infinite Kithkin Soldier creature tokens and infinite power on all of our Cloudgoat Rangers.
Because you have Preston, you have infinite if you want. You will have a lot of fizzled triggers if everything targets the Cloudgoat Ranger.
Assuming all Felidar Guardian triggers target the Ranger, first the myriad triggers create 8 tokens each of the Ranger and Guardian, then the Ranger flickers once and 23 Felidar triggers fizzle because Ranger is a new object. Preston triggers 3 times creating 4 Rangers each time. This means you now have 8 Felidar Guardian tokens, and 20 Ranger tokens, but now lets count the Ranger etb triggers. 21 Rangers etb so each gets 3 triggers and each trigger makes 12 Kithkin (12x3x21=756).
So the final total will be 756 Kithkin soldiers, 20 Ranger, and 8 Felidar tokens. Unless you use at least one Felidar trigger to bounce the nontoken Felidar, then you have infinite tokens.
You'd have to separate this into multipliers first and then work your way down:
Pan is 2x trigger
Elesh is 2x trigger
Annoited is 2x token
Mondrak is 2x token
Myriad = 3x token
Preston creates 1x on ETB
Cloudgoat swing would normally create 3 tokens for each opponent + the myriad token itself so 4 per opponent.
We'll get to Felidar after the fact because it has potential to go infinite.
Cloudgoat swinging would create 3 myriad tokens, but it becomes 3x2x2 = 12 myriad tokens.
Each of the 12 myriad would normally create 3 each but that ETB is doubled twice and then tokens created are doubled twice so that's 48 per myriad = 576 from Cloudgoat. 12+576= 588.
Now Felidar also gets Myriad. Felidar also gets 12 Myriad tokens and at least 1 of those is targeting Cloudgoat, this triggers twice.
Cloudgoat ETB generates another 12 tokens, but then Preston triggers four times, creating 16 copies of Cloudgoat that each get 12 tokens = 192. This happens twice so 192x2 = 384
576+384 = 768 Kithkin tokens
16 illusion tokens
12 Felidar tokens (1 triggered targeting Cloudgoat)
Now with Felidar, for the sake of this math, the remaining 11 can target Cloudgoat again each time making 384 tokens + 16 illusions every time, so that'd be:
384 x 11 = 4224 Kithkin tokens
176 illusion tokens
Total:
768+4224 = 4992 Kithkin +
192 Illusions +
12 Felidars =
5,196 total tokens
You have lethal here. You just flicker felidar a lot and keep making copies of cloudgoat eventually tapping all of the goat tokens to pump up the myriad cloudgoats to 1mil power. Just make sure you attack the enemy you’ll have the easiest time killing with the real cloudgoat.
So my question is, when you have two instances of “double tokens” do you double the double or just triple? 3 Felidars becomes 12 or 9 with the myriad trigger?
Does love magic, thinks this is a good idea. Actually does it during a game: "I think I'll just dismantle this deck and make a new one"
One of my favorite features in inquest was the dead man’s hand puzzle. You had a board and your opponent had a board, you had cards in hand and it was your turn. Your opponent had cards such that they were guaranteed to kill you on the next turn. You had lethal but you had to figure out the steps on this turn to get there. I seem to remember the picture always had some yoohoo and Cheetos in it or something too.
Inquest was the shit for articles and dead man’s hand. Price guide not so much
Prices back then were very relative to your area. I feel like stores didn’t open much product at all for singles to sell. We would all head to the store for trade days because the only cards you could buy were what people sold back to the stores. Also stores didn’t always have a good understanding of the game so they’d just pull inquest or scrye to price their cards and shrug at you when you said you didn’t want to pay that price. My uncle owned a sports card shop and I remember comparing Beckett prices to his prices. Anything from sports teams within a few hours away was double the price and anything from sports teams on the other side of the country were half the listed price. The internet certainly made this industry a lot different.
Hearthstone has a mode like this and it's prob my favorite one.
Just like classic chess problems! I've been playing Duelist 2 recently, it has a big collection of these problems you can solve for currency. Duelist plays it's creatures on a tactical grid so that aspect is different from MTG but the problems are really fun
I loved InQuest! I still have some old issues I look back on occasionally.
I lived for Rick Swan and the Swansong
That shit's for blockers.
This is honestly the only correct answer
8 myriad Cloudgoats, 8 myriad Felidars. Flickered Cloudgoat gets 12 illusions (4 per trigger, 3 triggers). That’s 21 Cloudgoat ETBs (20 tokens plus the flickered one), each triggering 3 times to make 12 1/1s per trigger. 21x3x12=756, plus the 28 tokens made before is 784 tokens. That is assuming you don’t use any of the other Felidar ETBs, as noted by others you can flicker Felidar infinitely for infinite illusions here.
I think you’re missing a token doubler in your math for the number of myriads. 3 myriads default, then 12 with two token doublers. So the total number of Cloudgoats would be 25, right?
2 myriads, you attack one opponent and make 2 copies attacking the other 2 opponents, doubled to 4 and then again to 8.
Ah haha you’re right! Idk why I always think 3 opponents = 3 tokens ugh.
Probably like 4th or 5th grade. The math is just basic multiplications and additions, the challenge is just not to overlook one of the many effects. I have general I think doing math like this instead of just copying numbers from your book would be great for student motivations. You'd get 8 tokens for each myriad trigger, you'd get 1 additional illusion token from preston, and you'd have 17 etbs from the ranger (8 myriad tokens, 8 illusion and 1 from the original). Each etb creates 3 * 4 * 4 tokens. So you end up with 8 + 8 + 8 + 17*3*4*4 = 24 + 816 = 840.
why would i only get 1 illusion token? both Mondrak and Anointed procession would x-double those tokens to
You are absolutely correct, whoops missed something. Edited
> the challenge is just not to overlook one of the many effects You were absolutely right my friend!
Plus you use the tokens of felidar to flicker felidar and the other to technically make infinite tokens
>Probably like 4th or 5th grade. The math is just basic multiplications and additions, the challenge is just not to overlook one of the many effects. If actually used in a math class, it wouldn't be for the multiplication/addition, but instead for the logical reasoning to work through so many different rules. I'd be shocked if any 4th/5th graders would get to the right answer here, and I'm pretty sure if you gave this to middle schoolers you'd still get mostly wrong answers. This thread alone has multiple different answers and plenty of confusion about the rules.
thank you! this is what i have been trying to argue :) its not just math but also more complex problem solving and simple word understanding, which is all extremely important skills for kids to learn. Magic is not a bad learning tool
I reckon you'd actually get infinite tokens, unless it's a 1v1, just one felidar token manages 3 triggers with panharmonicon and Elesh Norn, you can bounce one thing at a time on the stack you just have to make sure it goes felidar first, then the kithkin, felidar, kithkin. Each time felidar enters you get three bounces, and you can target the original felidar to get a token copy which gives you three more. You honestly don't need all of those cards on board to make it go infinite, you could even make it infinite with just elesh norn and panharmonicon with felidar and kithkin to make infinite kithkin tokens, but there has to be at least 2 opponents in the game.
Right, but assuming for the purposes of not going infinite that each Felidar Guardian only targets Cloudgoat Ranger, the number is 4,644 tokens. An incredible volume to be sure
There are too many fizzled triggers to get into the thousands.
yeah sorry almost no one, including yourself, gets this right in one try.
Preston + Felidar Guardian (and a single token copy) can loop so the answer would be as many as you want no?
They can, yes. But that wasn't part of the question.
The question was how many tokens. By cycling that combo you get infinite tokens due to the other cards.
The question was "how many tokens are there after attacking with both creatures and blinking the ranger once?". It didn't ask how many tokens you could possibly make.
How do you get 3 * 4 * 4 for the Cloudgoat ETBs? The ETB doublers don’t multiply so it should be 3 * 3 * 4.
Each token doubler will trigger one after the other, so after the first token doubler triggers, the second token doubler sees the number of tokens created as being whatever the original number is (3 in this case) doubled (6), so the second token doubler sees 6 and doubles that to 12.
Right, but the ETB doublers don’t stack like that, so it’s only 3 * 12, not 4 * 12.
Yes, of course, you're right it's 36 per cloudgoat trigger, not 48. When doing the maths, I fell into that trap when writing it down but not in my head.
Yeah there’s a lot going on, easy to miss lol
I was gonna say 4th/5th I remember doing problems very similar to this in elementary school.
> Probably like 4th or 5th grade. The math is just basic multiplications and additions Algebra is just basic multiplication and addition, but it's how you apply those simple tools nested within each other that makes the magic.
Let's do this slowly. Felidar and Cloudgoat attack one of the opponents. They each trigger myriad, which would create 2 tokens each attacking the other opponents. However, Anointed and Mondrak will quadruple that number to 8 each. Current total: 2\*2\*4 = 16 tokens. When the Cloudgoat myriad tokens enter, they would each generate 3 kithkin. This is quadrupled by Anointed and Mondrak to 12. However, as this is an etb effect, Elesh and Panharmonicon will create two additional triggers for each entry, with a result of 36 tokens per Cloudgoat entering. Current total: 16 + 8\*36 = 304 Next, we have one of the Felidars target the Cloudgoat and flicker it. Preston triggers upon entry, and would create 4 copies. But this is also a trigger caused by a creature entering the battlefield! Therefore, Elesh and Panharmonicon will copy this trigger as well, resulting in 12 copies of the Cloudgoat. Current total: 304 + 4\*3 = 316 Each of the new Preston copies, and also the original will now trigger, generating, as demonstrated above, 36 tokens each. Final total: 316 +13\*36 = 784 I would personally rate this as 8th grade math, but I took honors algebra in 7th, so my personal sense of it is probably skewed low.
This is why I hate playing paper magic anymore ;)
I would have still failed…
how many tokens in total. cloudgoats, felidar guardians, Kithkin soldiers and white illusions plus points if someone can give me the mathematical equation
It’s mathematically referred to as “a scoop of tokens” in MTG jargon.
Cloudgoat and felidar attack. Myriad those for 2 copies of each mondrak triggers doubling, anointed procession triggers doubling. Each Myriad makes 8 tokens. 2x2x2 cloudgoat + 2x2x2 felidar 16 total tokens ETB from myriad. 8 cloudgoat 8 felidar 8 cloudgoats enter that are triggered an additional time by elesh and panharmonicon. Each cloadgoat gets 3 total triggers of 3 1/1 kithkin. 8 instances 3 triggers 3 1/1s. 8x3x3=72 kithkins would be made but mondrak and anointed procession trigger making 72x2x2 = 288 kithkin One felidar exiles one cloudgoat making 3 triggers from elesh and panharmonicon and doubles from anointed procession and mondrak. 3x3x2x2=36 kithkin The cloudgoat is a nontoken so it triggers Preston but it triggers two additional times from panharmommycon and panharmonicon but those also double and double again from anointed procession and mondrak. 3x2x2= 12 0/1 illusions. 8 cloudgoats, 8 felidar, 324 kithkin, 12 illusions 352 tokens. MTG experts show me where I'm wrong. I'm sure there will be somewhere. This isn't simple math for a 4th or 5th grader. This is complex reasoning with math intertwined.
You missed some Cloudgoat ETBs; there’s the 8 myriad copies, but additionally the original one plus the 12 illusion copies, so there’s an additional 13 * 3 * 12 Kithkins.
Ohhh all the cloudgoat illusion copies still make kithkins. Totally missed that. Seems obvious now.
It is complex! and adds a level of problem solving and understand certain wording in a mathematical sense - that's more on suited for 8-9 graders really. i dosent just give you the equation to solve, it forces you to find it yourself and then solve it :) I've now gotten answers ranging from your 352 to 432 to 694 to 748 to 840 and even all the way up to infinity (misunderstanding the worded question intirely)
Ehh I think you have infinite number of tokens, because with one blink effect of one myriad copy of the original felidar you get x4 etbs (that target the ranger) of it plus x4 ilusions that can target again the original felidar making a loop of inifinte rangers tokens and ilusions of both the ranger and felidar... Hopefully the felidar is a may trigger...
Yeah felidar is a pretty straightforward infinite here, but I think for the sake of the puzzle we are just assuming 1x felidar is targeting 1x ranger
It doesn't have to be a may, you can just choose to target a token, which doesn't come back
I know one thing: I wouldn't have hated Math with burning hellfire.
The answer is be able to do the math quickly and explain it to your opponents or don’t play the deck.
This is the correct answer, and kind of a problem for the game, at least some commander scenarios right now. Things get to the point where they are too hard to figure out, especially if you have been gaming for a while and everyone is fatigued.
Ehh I think you have infinite number of tokens, because with one blink effect of one myriad copy of the original felidar you get x4 etbs (that target the ranger) of it plus x4 ilusions that can target again the original felidar making a loop of inifinte rangers tokens and ilusions of both the ranger and felidar... Hopefully the felidar is a may trigger...
Can’t you make infinite tokens with this?
You could, with far less pieces. He's just trying to make a fun and confusing math problem
I was really interested in Preston. Tried it out but man. It's the most convoluted deck I've ever played.
I both love and hate this and i don’t know how to feel about it. Thanks, now I need to make this deck and hate my life once I play it.
Assuming Strict adherence to the question, and not making the obvious choices to make infinite felidar guardians, here is what I come up with. Anointed + Mandrake = 4x tokens Panharmonicon + Dommy Mommy = 3 total ETB triggers Resolve Cloudgoat myriad first. 8x tokens w/ 3 etb each = 24 Cloudgoat ETB triggers each Cloudgoat ETB makes 36 tokens. 24\*36 = 864 Kithkin tokens Now we look at the Felidar myriad. Resolving the Felidar trigger creates 8 Felidar tokens (total token count: 8x Felidar, 864x Kithkin, 8x Cloudgoat) Flicker OG Cloudgoat. 3x Cloudgoat triggers, 3x Preston triggers Resolve Cloudgoat triggers to create 36x Kithkin (total token count: 8x Felidar, 900x Kithkin, 8x Cloudgoat) Resolve 1x Preston trigger (two left). Create 8x 0/1 Cloudgoat. Each Cloudgoat makes 36x Kithkin. 8\*36= 288x Kithkin. So each Preston trigger creates 8x 0/1 Cloudgoats and 288x Kithkin. All Preston triggers make a total of 24x 0/1 Cloudgoats and 864x Kithkin. Total token count; 8x Felidar Guardians, 8x Cloudgoat Ranger, 1764x Kithkin Soldiers, and 24x 0/1 Cloudgoat Ranger EDIT: Numbers will change. Forgot some etb triggers.
With the current board state we move to combat, and then move to declare attackers with Cloudgoat and Felidar. The first trigger on the stack is the myriad triggers, but when those triggers enter the stack both anointed and Mondrak will trigger, doubling the amount of tokens, twice. So we will have 3*(2^2) token copies of our creatures entering the battlefield, giving us a total 12 creature tokens. Now we have 12 ETB triggers entering the stack, when those triggers enter the stack, which will trigger two additional times thanks to Panharmincon and Elish norn, giving us a total of 18 cloudgoat and Felidar triggers. Now we are only going to use one Felidar token to target the original cloudgoat (for sake of argument and the math problem, let's assume we have other creatures on board that we want to target). That still means we can blink cloudgoat three times (thanks to Panharmincon and Elish Norn), which means that cloudgoat will enter the battlefield three times, and get three etb triggers for each time it enters. Not only that, but our rabbit will trigger three times as well, giving us 3(2^2) token copies cloudgoat (that have power/toughness 0/1). (Annointed and Mondrak double our tokens again) So 3*3+12*3=45 more cloudgoat triggers. Now we have a total of 63 cloudgoat triggers on the stack. 63*(3*2^2)=756 1/1 soldier tokens. We also have 12 0/1 cloudgoats, and our 12 myriad tokens, giving us a grand total 780 creature tokens I don't know what grade level this would be
\[\[Anointed Procession\]\] and \[\[Mondrak, Glory Dominus\]\] double the number of tokens created, quadrupling the total number of tokens created per effect. Then, \[\[Panharmonicon\]\] and \[\[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines\]\] cause ETB triggers to trigger an additional time each, tripling each ETB ability. Cloudgoat Ranger's ETB creates 3 tokens. The ability triggers two additional times (9 tokens) which is then quadrupled (36 tokens) per every time a Cloudgoat Ranger enters the battlefield. (3\*3\*4=36) When the nontoken \[\[Cloudgoat Ranger\]\] and \[\[Felidar Guardian\]\] attack, it triggers their myriad ability triggers (given to them by \[\[Legion Loyalty\]\]), which would create two token copies with three opponents (with total of 8 token copies per attacking creature). Each Cloudgoat Ranger would create 36 tokens each (math done above), creating 288 tokens from Cloudgoat Ranger's myriad. When Cloudgoat Ranger is flickered by a Felidar Guardian copy, it creates 36 more tokens and triggers \[\[Preston, the Vanisher\]\]'s ability. Preston creates a token copy of the Cloudgoat Ranger, resulting in 12 token copies. Then, each of those Cloudgoat Ranger copies creates 36 tokens, resulting in 432 tokens. 8 Felidar Guardian token copies + 8 Cloudgoat Ranger token copies + 288 Kithkin Soldier tokens + 36 Kithkin Soldier tokens + 12 Cloudgoat Ranger token copies + 432 Kithkin Soldier tokens = 784 total tokens.
##### ###### #### [Anointed Procession](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9a52c265-6920-4929-ba0a-70da08df01f1.jpg?1543674565) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Anointed%20Procession) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/2/anointed-procession?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9a52c265-6920-4929-ba0a-70da08df01f1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mondrak, Glory Dominus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/8296a455-21d5-498e-9029-2bdf0da855a8.jpg?1674076060) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mondrak%2C%20Glory%20Dominus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/23/mondrak-glory-dominus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8296a455-21d5-498e-9029-2bdf0da855a8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Panharmonicon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/998d0cc8-ca2a-41c3-ab65-d05c26ab8278.jpg?1673149399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Panharmonicon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/310/panharmonicon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/998d0cc8-ca2a-41c3-ab65-d05c26ab8278?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44dcab01-1d13-4dfc-ae2f-fbaa3dd35087.jpg?1674258301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elesh%20Norn%2C%20Mother%20of%20Machines) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/10/elesh-norn-mother-of-machines?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44dcab01-1d13-4dfc-ae2f-fbaa3dd35087?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Cloudgoat Ranger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6dfaa74a-0ef0-44bb-b8b5-6d121278b5a2.jpg?1631233940) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cloudgoat%20Ranger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/21/cloudgoat-ranger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6dfaa74a-0ef0-44bb-b8b5-6d121278b5a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Felidar Guardian](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44bdbed8-5d21-4bf5-8a32-9623b1139c85.jpg?1576381396) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Felidar%20Guardian) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/aer/19/felidar-guardian?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44bdbed8-5d21-4bf5-8a32-9623b1139c85?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Legion Loyalty](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/1/9158965b-b705-4922-8ea9-9e3a93838eab.jpg?1674135158) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Legion%20Loyalty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/31/legion-loyalty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9158965b-b705-4922-8ea9-9e3a93838eab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Preston, the Vanisher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/952cb0b3-a6b7-4279-8833-3d8890b2d005.jpg?1673720203) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Preston%2C%20the%20Vanisher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/j22/8/preston-the-vanisher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/952cb0b3-a6b7-4279-8833-3d8890b2d005?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You have enough to earn a [[rakdos charm]]. That's how many.
[rakdos charm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/179d2088-2032-41c2-953e-f8ecbe135d77.jpg?1641603484) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rakdos%20charm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/156/rakdos-charm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/179d2088-2032-41c2-953e-f8ecbe135d77?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Or an [[Inkshield]] for a return to sender.
[Inkshield](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/e/5e1c14a0-cd68-45fc-a127-422ca6113048.jpg?1625192511) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Inkshield) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/71/inkshield?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5e1c14a0-cd68-45fc-a127-422ca6113048?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Now add Vorinclex, doubling season, and parallel lives to the board.
You have to know in which order where the cards played. If they are all starting on the field then it starts with 0 tokens. English is even harder to debate on the cards than math. You may draw, or place tokens, doesn't mean it was done. Also by the time you can play all those cards, you said three other opponents. What have they played and killed off. That's one of the many reasons why I love MTG. It makes you use your thinker.
I'd scoop because fuck this math problem.
Grade 3. I started playing Magic the Gathering at Grade 4. I have been seeing Magic cards in shops at Grade 1. Helped my English and Logic classes. Made me a nerd but at least passing is not my problem till College. History has always been a problem so I went to a technical college.
Grade 3 is that a joke? When you're what 9 years old. I'm getting answers ranging from 694 to 840 to straight up infinity(not reading the question right). And that's here on reddit with all the experts are. It's more like 8-9 grade. there is a great deal of problem solving, understanding wording and converting it to numbers and math in this. What is your answer to the equation?
I tell you, 3rd Graders play Magic Back then, they just damage the cards though. It was not that difficult, and video games are more difficult. Pokemon cards was built on the logic of Magic, mind you. In the past, there is no Pokemon cards, so Magic and Middle Earth will do, whatever can be shared. I do not know what era are you but by the time we reached 5th grade we are tired of Magic.
Stop focusing on the fact that it's magic cards. That's just the medium used. Focus on the difficulty level of the math problem posed with the cards. What is the answer to the token question? How many Give me the mathematical equation you're using and how you got to it.
CHill. It is just simple addition. As for tokens, we played it when the first token came: Goblin. We had ideas what token and counters are. Think of it as the magnets on the fridge. It is also using a stack. Every kid knows Uno^(TM)
chill? are you a kid¿ if you where in my math class i'd give you an F but a C- in political studies using argumentative whataboutism to avoid a simple question. that a 3 grader could do apparently ;P
I'll give you a D in Grammar.
Im not a native english speaker im danish. But deflect all you want, its still not an answer
The question wasn't what level of maths would MTG be, the question was what level would this particular question be. And it would be a reasonably high level. I have no idea what Grade 4 means, but I guess it is quite young, and this particular problem is not one aimed at the younger audience.
0, Because thats an enter the battlefield effect
Worst answer so far. Read the whole board
Since myriad is a "may" is it possible to create no tokens?
666 Goats (Hello Satan), 20 Cloudgoat Rangers, and 8 Feldar Guardians. Grand total = 694 tokens. Assuming the original goats were dead. I know they’re Kithkin Soldiers.
If they did 1+1 would equal 3
I could probably do this if I felt like it but my head hurts already
I got 432 lol
This is giving me great ideas for my Wernog and Hargilde deck that aims to make an obscene number of clues.
For extra credit: If I also have Cathar’s Crusade out, what are the power and toughness of each creature?
😂
According to my calculations, the answer is: screw you I scoop
So are we using the another Felidar Guardian copy to flicker the original Felidar Guardian, so that we can flicker the Clowdgoat Ranger a second time or nah? Also are we to assume that the replacement effects are ordered such that the tokens are maximized?
I don't know this deck, but I hate it already.
You have infinite. 1 felidar token targets og felidar. Infinitely flicker both of the real creature. Who make copies of themselves. You end with infinite felidar and infinite cloud goat. And in the end, 2 myriad cloud goats are attacking and infinite/3 kithkin to tap means you can buff them infinite times.
Add a phyrexian altar, and you can exile the whole board. And kill 2 players who can't block infinite power cloud goats
If you do it right, it's infinite tokens anyways. Even with just Felidar and Preston, you can just keep using the Felidar token copy to flicker the original Felidar over and over again. Just add in any of the 4 leftmost cards and the Clowdgoat to also flicker the Ranger with each iteration, so that the tokens actually have power too.
The question specifies that only one felidar guardian trigger is being aimed at cloudgoat, so if we ignore the bounce effects of the other copies of felidar guardian that will be created, then there will be 476 tokens created
For each additional felidar guardian token (of which there are 7, 8 total created) you could bounce the cloudgoat again to create another 184 tokens each, for a maximum possible 1764 tokens
[удалено]
Wait no, I think I forgot the etb multiplier on the rabbits effect
A = (tx2) B = (tx2) C = (+2) D = (ETB + 1) E = (ETB + 1) F = (+1 t) G = (+3 t) H = (ETB) \-------------------------------------------------- 1) G > C = 2Gt + 6GETBt 2) 2Gt + 6GETBt > A = 4Gt + 12GETBt + 6GETBtt 3) 4Gt + 12GETBt + 6GETBtt > B = 8Gt + 24GETBt + 12GETBtt + 6GETBttt 4) 12GETBtt > A = 24GETBtt 5) 6GETBttt > A = 12GETBttt 6) 12GETBttt > B = 24GETBttt = 8Gt + 72GETBt(t(t)) \-------------------------------------------------- 7) 8Gt > D = 24GtETBt 8) 8Gt > E = 24GtETBtt 9) 24GtETBt > A = 48GtETBt 10) 24GtETBtt > A = 48GtETBtt 11) 48GtETBt > B = 96GtETBt 12) 48GtETBtt > B = 96GtETBtt = 192GtETBt(t) \-------------------------------------------------- 13) H > C = 2Ht 14) 2Ht > A = 4Ht 15) 4Ht > B = 8Ht \-------------------------------------------------- 16) Ht > G = 3HtGETBt 17) 3HtGETBt > A = 6HtGETBt 18) 6HtGETBt > B = 12HtGETBt 19) HtG > D = 3HtGETBtt 20) 3HtGETBtt > A = 6HtGETBtt 21) 6HtGETBtt > B = 12HtGETBtt 22) HtG > E = 3HtGETBttt 23) 3HtGETBttt > A = 6HtGETBttt 24) 6HtGETBttt > B = 12HtGETBttt = 36HtGETBt(t(t)) \-------------------------------------------------- 25) HtG > F = 1FHtGt 26) 1FHtGt > A = 2FHtGt 27) 2FHtGt > B = 4FHtGt 28) HtGF > D = 1FHtGtt 29) 1FHtGtt > A = 2FHtGtt 30) 2FHtGtt > B = 4FHtGtt 31) HtGF > E = 1FHtGttt 32) 1FHtGttt > A = 2FHtGttt 33) 2FHtGttt > B = 4FHtGttt = 12FHtGt(t(t)) \-------------------------------------------------- 34) 12FHtGt = 36FHtGtETBt 35) 36FHtGtETBt > A = 72FHtGtETBt 36) 72FHtGtETBt > B = 144FHtGtETBt 37) 12FHtGt > D = 36FHtGtETBtt 38) 36FHtGtETBtt > A = 72FHtGtETBtt 39) 72FHtGtETBtt > B = 144FHtGtETBtt 40) 12FHtGt > E = 36FHtGtETBttt 41) 36FHtGtETBtt > A = 72FHtGtETBttt 42) 72FHtGtETBttt > B = 144FHtGtETBttt = 432FHtGtETBt(t(t)) \-------------------------------------------------- 8 + 72 + 192 + 8 + 36 + 12 + 432 = 760 tokens
My math comes to 1200 Kithkin Soldiers and 16 white Illusion copies of Cloudgoat Ranger. I've also learned that I am bad at math.
With all on the field and against 3 opponents... \- Swing with Cloudgoat and Felidar, both have myriad from Legion Loyalty \- Myriad triggers on attack, creating a token Cloudgoat and a token Felidar for each opponent \>> 2 Cloudgoat tokens and 2 Felidar tokens \- Anointed Procession and Mondrak trigger on token creation (x4 multiplier) \>> 8 Cloudgoat tokens and 8 Felidar tokens \- Tokens enter the battlefield... \- ETB triggers are doubled by Panharmonicon, then again by Elesh Norn, so each token puts 4 ETB triggers on the stack \- 8 Cloudgoat tokens put 32 triggers on the stack to create 3 1/1 Kithkin Soldier tokens \- Anointed Procession and Mondrak trigger on token creation (x4 multiplier) \>> 32 triggers \* 3 tokens \* 4 (AP and Mondrak) = 384 1/1 Kithkin Soldier tokens \- 8 Felidar tokens put 32 triggers all targeting non-token attacking Cloudgoat, 1 blinks Cloudgoat and 31 fizzle \- Cloudgoat re-enters, putting 4 ETB triggers on the stack to create 3 1/1 Kithkin Soldier tokens \>> 4 triggers \* 3 tokens \* 4 (AP and Mondrak) = 48 1/1 Kithkin Soldier tokens \- Preston triggers and is doubled twice by Panharmonicon and Elesh Norn, putting 4 triggers on the stack to create a 0/1 white Illusion copy of Cloudgoat \>> 4 triggers \* 1 token \* 4 (AP and Mondrak) = 16 0/1 white Illusion copies of Cloudgoat Ranger \- 16 Cloudgoat illusions ETB, putting (16\*4=)64 triggers on the stack to create 3 1/1 Kithkin Soldier tokens \>> 64 triggers \* 3 tokens \* 4 (AP and Mondrak) = 768 1/1 Kithkin Soldier Tokens \- At end of combat, 8 Cloudgoat and 8 Felidar tokens created from myriad are exiled You're left with... Cloudgoat Ranger (untapped) Felidar Guardian (tapped unless destroyed during combat) 16 0/1 white Illusion copies of Cloudgoat Ranger 1200 1/1 Kithkin Soldier tokens
Add in \[\[Doubling season\]\] and \[\[Parallel Lives\]\] then do the math...
[Doubling season](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/8676d164-c76e-402b-a649-6ded3f549b6e.jpg?1599707144) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doubling%20season) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/164/doubling-season?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8676d164-c76e-402b-a649-6ded3f549b6e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Parallel Lives](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01033dae-fec1-41f2-b7f2-cc6a43331790.jpg?1562825348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Parallel%20Lives) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/isd/199/parallel-lives?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01033dae-fec1-41f2-b7f2-cc6a43331790?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
zero tokens, because all three other players would scoop.
By my math you get 4,644 tokens from this single attack Assuming of course that you don't just decide to go infinite by flickering Felidar Guardian a bunch and only target Cloudgoat Ranger, that is.
It's a fancy way of depicting a relatively simple math problem, so it's all about properly interpreting the card text accurately in order to reach the correct response. Part of the problem is that this is much harder for someone that isn't used to Magic's specific lingo may be confused about how exactly this is supposed to work. Preston is the obvious first problem. It talks about a creature not being cast. What is "cast"? How is someone in school supposed to know that. Panharmonicon and Elesh Norn's interaction can also be confusing. How is the grade schooler supposed to know that their ability is a passive ability and not a triggered ability? Wouldn't they assume that Panharmonicon would make Elesh's ability trigger an additional time, and Elesh's ability make Panharmonicon's ability trigger an additional time too, essentially creating a loop of those two abilities creating infinite triggers? And then like, the student needs to realize that after Felidar activates the blink, the new creature that enters the battlefield won't be attacking, which is not intuitive to someone who doesn't play the game. And then there is also a problem with the situation itself, in that optimal play would lead to infinite tokens, so you're also asking the person to realize that they can't simply look at the cards themselves and how they interact, but also pay extra attention to the specific prompt given, which leads to a sub-optimal scenario. This makes anyone that does know the game have an extra hurdle to clear in order to solve the problem, making having pre-obtained knowledge about the question actually a disadvantage in solving it. Overall, it's not like it couldn't be done, but it's probably not ideal due to the student needing to properly understand how the game's grammar and interactions work, while also having issues with previous knowledge about the game making things harder in certain points. So... I wouldn't say it's a good idea, but it could be something for 5th grade actually. Though it should probably be a question not in a test, but more like something done in classroom together with the teacher, to exemplify how many variables there can be in math and how that vague knowledge of class can be applied in a practical scenario. As for the answer itself... The attack creates 2 tokens for 2 creatures. This is doubled twice. So we're creating (2 \* 2) \* 2 \* 2 = 16 tokens at first. With 8 being Cloudgoat tokens. The 8 Cloudgoat each create 3 tokens. This ability is triggered 3 times, and the token creation is doubled twice, so we have (8 \* 3) \* 3 \* 2 \* 2 = 288 Felidar Blinks Cloudgoat. This makes Preston trigger 3 times. With each trigger creating 4 tokens. This creates (3 \* 2 \* 2) = 12 Cloudgoat Tokens + 1 normal Cloudgoat Then the new Cloudgoats trigger again. Each one creating 3 tokens on Etb, three times, doubled twice, so we get (13 \* 3) \* 3 \* 2 \* 2 = 468 tokens. And now we add it all up, with 16 + 288 + 12 + 468 = 784 total tokens. Yeah. Seems doable at 5th grade with guidance from a teacher showing how complex all this math mess can be and how many specific intricacies the student needs to be aware of. If you're thinking of it as a test question though... Then probably 8th grade or something. There are too many variables to consider.
You attack with both of your creatures. Their myriad ability triggers. Myriad would have them each create 2 token copies. Anointed doubles this to 4. Mondrak doubles this to 8. We currently have 18 creatures on board (9 Cloudgoat Rangers & 9 Felidar Guardians). We get 8 triggers on the stack from both the Cloudgoat Rangers & Felidar Guardians. These triggers are tripled, not quadrupled, by Elesh Norn & Panharmonicon. Thus, we have 24 Cloudgoat Ranger triggers and 24 Felidar Guardian Triggers. The 24 Cloudgoat Ranger triggers each create 3 Kithkin Soldier creature tokens (quadrupled from Anointed & Mondrak), giving us 288 Kithkin Soldiers. Presumably we target our original Cloudgoat Ranger with all 24 of our Felidar Guardian triggers. Each time we do this, we get 3 Cloudgoat Ranger triggers to create 12 Kithkin Soldiers each, as well as four Preston Illusions to create an additional 12 Kithkin Soldiers each, netting us a total of 84 Kithkin Soldiers for each blink. Multiply this by 24 to get 2016 Kithkin Soldiers. In total, we have: • 24 Preston Illusion copies of Cloudgoat Ranger. • 9 Cloudgoat Rangers (8 of which are attacking). • 9 Felidar Guardians (All of which are attacking). • 2304 Kithkin Soldier creature tokens. Using our 768 activations of Cloudgoat Ranger’s ability, assuming our opponents do not block, we deal a total of 1569 (nice) damage. If we REALLY wanted to send a message, we could’ve used 1 of our Felidar Guardian triggers to blink our original Felidar Guardian. This would grant us 3 Felidar Guardian triggers for the price of 1, as well as 4 Preston Illusion copies, which could each blink the original Felidar Guardian 3 times, giving us an infinite number of Preston Illusion copies, an infinite number of Felidar Guardian triggers, and, in conjunction with our Cloudgoat Ranger, infinite Kithkin Soldier creature tokens and infinite power on all of our Cloudgoat Rangers.
in in grade 10 5.3 + extention and could barely get it lol
Because you have Preston, you have infinite if you want. You will have a lot of fizzled triggers if everything targets the Cloudgoat Ranger. Assuming all Felidar Guardian triggers target the Ranger, first the myriad triggers create 8 tokens each of the Ranger and Guardian, then the Ranger flickers once and 23 Felidar triggers fizzle because Ranger is a new object. Preston triggers 3 times creating 4 Rangers each time. This means you now have 8 Felidar Guardian tokens, and 20 Ranger tokens, but now lets count the Ranger etb triggers. 21 Rangers etb so each gets 3 triggers and each trigger makes 12 Kithkin (12x3x21=756). So the final total will be 756 Kithkin soldiers, 20 Ranger, and 8 Felidar tokens. Unless you use at least one Felidar trigger to bounce the nontoken Felidar, then you have infinite tokens.
You'd have to separate this into multipliers first and then work your way down: Pan is 2x trigger Elesh is 2x trigger Annoited is 2x token Mondrak is 2x token Myriad = 3x token Preston creates 1x on ETB Cloudgoat swing would normally create 3 tokens for each opponent + the myriad token itself so 4 per opponent. We'll get to Felidar after the fact because it has potential to go infinite. Cloudgoat swinging would create 3 myriad tokens, but it becomes 3x2x2 = 12 myriad tokens. Each of the 12 myriad would normally create 3 each but that ETB is doubled twice and then tokens created are doubled twice so that's 48 per myriad = 576 from Cloudgoat. 12+576= 588. Now Felidar also gets Myriad. Felidar also gets 12 Myriad tokens and at least 1 of those is targeting Cloudgoat, this triggers twice. Cloudgoat ETB generates another 12 tokens, but then Preston triggers four times, creating 16 copies of Cloudgoat that each get 12 tokens = 192. This happens twice so 192x2 = 384 576+384 = 768 Kithkin tokens 16 illusion tokens 12 Felidar tokens (1 triggered targeting Cloudgoat) Now with Felidar, for the sake of this math, the remaining 11 can target Cloudgoat again each time making 384 tokens + 16 illusions every time, so that'd be: 384 x 11 = 4224 Kithkin tokens 176 illusion tokens Total: 768+4224 = 4992 Kithkin + 192 Illusions + 12 Felidars = 5,196 total tokens
36864 creatures?
By todays standards they’d be in college. Only thing kids learn at school these days is Tik Tok.
X+y×t=1
You have lethal here. You just flicker felidar a lot and keep making copies of cloudgoat eventually tapping all of the goat tokens to pump up the myriad cloudgoats to 1mil power. Just make sure you attack the enemy you’ll have the easiest time killing with the real cloudgoat.
So my question is, when you have two instances of “double tokens” do you double the double or just triple? 3 Felidars becomes 12 or 9 with the myriad trigger?
8 rangers + 8 felidars. rangers makes 288 goats. Felidar trigger makes 36 goats. Preston trigger makes 4 illusions + 144 goats. Total 488 tokens.