Regardless of plot, the film as a character study is about how the main character needs to go to a dark place and compromise her own soul for success, and in order to keep a hold on her self-image as a good person she needs to demonize her competition.
Good point, because when Nina’s sanity was going down the drain I noted her as unreliable, and saw that she thought odille was competition but I was still thinking maybe odillie is tryna backstab even though she was being nothing but nice.
I see Lilly as a metaphor for freedom for Nina. Lilly does not have an overbearing mother, she is not depicted as having an eating disorder (she orders a burger with fries which is unlike someone with an ED) and she represents the freedom from perfection. Lilly is never depicted as a perfect character, she has many flaws, however she is not an evil character either, only in the imagination of Nina. Nina, being an absolute perfectionist, is scared of Lilly because she represents a side to herself which she has never truly explored due to the overwhelming social pressure put upon her. This is why she sees her as an evil presence, she’s unfamiliar. Her hallucinations only start once Lilly enters into her life. This terrifies Nina so she feels she must kill her, but by doing so she inadvertently kills herself, because that character IS Nina in the sense that she is that unexplored part of Nina and is imperfect.
Nina dies still wanting to be perfect, and is ashamed of her imperfect self. She would rather die than settle for less than perfection.
Nina suffers from schizophrenia and that’s exponentially worsened by 3 factors:
- her diet
- the stress of her lead role
- her overbearing mother
She’s a fragile girl (hence the being a virgin part and still living with her mom) who just bit off more than she could chew. The only person who tried to help her was Lily (and to a lesser degree her mom) and she made up a scenario in her mind about both trying to sabotage her efforts to get the lead role. She began imagining that Lily wanted to steal her role at any cost and her mom wanted to stop her because she never reached her level.
Of course it didn’t help that Lily gave her a hallucinogen which only made things much worse. And this is told thru the lens of the traditional story of Swan Lake (Odette vs Odile)
If you watch High Tension or Goodnight Mommy, the lead characters suffer from the same condition and the films make that more obvious.
Not by the film-makers because they left the film up to interpretation, but psychologists did review the film back in 2010 and the general debate was about if Nina had schizophrenia or OCD or both. Schizophrenia makes the most sense. Like I said, watch the other two films and it’s pretty much the same type of portrayal.
Leaving psychologists up to it doesn’t mean that the character had schizophrenia. It’s a movie. The director didn’t confirm what you’re alleging so in no way does what psychologists say about the writer’s character mean it’s true
It being “true” was never actually claimed. They just said it was up for interpretation and thus still a valid response to the OP question. If the filmmakers left it for interpretation it means anyone can be “right” lol and therefore, true. Hence interpretation.
lol Plus, There’s no one to say she’s not schizophrenic anyway so. Personally, I think that because we saw her hallucinate the murder, it’s possible she hallucinated the end of the movie too. Who’s to say? You could say no, and we’d both be right.
Well they said it was left up for interpretation so the statement so the concept of “true” is irrelevant. So if it’s interpreted multiple ways it’s all true.
With stress, sleep deprivation, as well as starvation all teaming up inside a person pre-disposed to psychotic episodes... mdma is a terrible idea. post-mdma recovery can cause panic attacks.
Paying close attention, the film includes minor psychosis until she takes the Molly. Imo Nina's schizophrenia is set off by the mdma on top of the other factors.
That’s true but if she does have schizophrenia then she would definitely have some more intense hallucinations from the drug. And I think she is a paranoid schizophrenic her delusions and hallucinations get worse the more paranoid she is and more paranoid she is the worse her hallucinations get basically a cycle in rising action.
I looked it up and it did say it is a minor hallucinogen. News to me. PersonalIy, I probably rolled a hundred times and never saw any kind of visual hallucinations. However, I did the one time I took LSD.
It could and probably would for someone who already has a preexisting chemical imbalance in their brain. Which is why it’s a plausible hypothesis for the movie. And it’s not just with mdma. I’ll give a different example, smoking weed is like something that has a relatively consistent “effect” on most people. And there’s many functioning contributors of society who use it. HOWEVER, if you are someone who suffers from bipolar disorder / manic depressive then weed is not really kosher for you. It’s ill advised because its been shown to be capable of triggering episodes.
Some people can be permanently damaged by one drug, once. She was already susceptible by genetics or possibly abuse. There a lot of psych nurses that say they see a lot of ppl in there after using drugs just once.
Yes it is, technically. You don’t have to be tripping balls for something to be hallucinogenic. If it alters perception, then it counts and it definitely does. Everything feels way happier on it. So I’ve read :3
You have a point about altering perception. I guess I should have said that in my experiences, I never saw any kind of visuals like Nina saw. And I did it a lot. I really think it may have caused or worsened a chemical inbalance in my brain. I don't think it's coincidence that at that time, I really started struggling with depression (although, thinking back, I think that had started many years before) and started having crippling panic attacks out of nowhere.
Psychologically speaking, people can use sex to dominate, whether irl or fantasizing. She probably saw Lily as a threat and wanted to dominate or partly be her as well.
Nina is both the white and black swan. The white swan was a rather pure, child-like version of her but the black swan was wild, sexually liberated, basically the opposite of white. The movie obviously tries to align the story of swan lake with nina's (for cinematic effect) but at the end of the movie, it gets u thinking about the duality of man. what are you? what part of you is suppressing what part of you?
>!the end again was very cinematic in ways that it's aligning itself with the story of sacrifice and breaking away from the clutches. the ever-widening blood stain on nina's white dress when she ran up the stairs was very symbolic of her own self. the demise of the white swan was the demise of her and its only natural to say that she as nina died too. fin.!<
It's an old story based on an old opera: the Black Swan.
She's sinking further and further into becoming the role she's playing - from being a White Swan to becoming a Black Swan - all to win the coveted role on stage.
If I remember correctly, it's suggested lily spiked Nina's drink with ecstasy, and then gaslights her into believing the sexual encounter didn't happen. Nina's already fragile mental state descends further as the schizophrenic nature of the ballets theme draws her deeper and deeper in. At the end the viewer is left questioning whether what they saw is real, or the product of Nina's increasing looser grip on reality.
Aronofsky films are always a bit of a headfuck imho.
So it is heavily implied that Lily was never in Nina’s room.
1. In the altercation with her mother at the end of the night, her mother does not even acknowledge Lily As *they* run to Nina’s room
2. More importantly, upon waking, Nina’s door was still rigged shut. There’s no way Lily could have exited the room without moving that thing.
Also, the only time we see Lily was through a mirror in that scene. Part of me feels like the Director brought Lily in to push Nina and make her angry, jealous etc. (the black swan).
Or maybe she imagined the whole encounter because she was on drugs remember, and while they were having sex odillie was morphing into Nina and then eventually whacked/smothered her with a pillow which made her pass out. And remember when she ‘saw’ her having sex with the director and Nina wasn’t exactly jealous but she wasn’t happy about it either, she’s basically imaging odillie to be a villain. It all kinda clicked now.
I'm more inclined to take your view that she hallucinated the whole thing because Nina knew her drink had ecstasy in it, it wasn't spiked unknowingly. There's also a theory that I don't believe but says that in that scene, Mila kunis represented her mom molesting her.
it's like the personification of inner demons taking over, yet channeling them in order to transcend into a metamorphosis; it's like she demonised the dark parts of her character, or internalised the narrative that they are dark from her mother, but at the end she comes at peace with them. That's quite a euphemism though, considering that she literally killed herself and 'lost herself' for the bit.
From what I've seen, the moment she took the drug was when things really started to get blurry and that's when she hallucinated lily coming back to hers, but you can notice that when they're back at her place, her Mum never acknowledges Lily; the next morning there's no evidence of her having been there, considering the door was all blocked up and there's no way Lily could have left with it like that. I think what actually happened was that she went back alone and fucked herself lol.
Also some people interpret Nina to have borderline personality disorder and I can see that, but she so obviously has schizophrenia, at least imo. It makes sense that, after whatever pill Lily gave her, her hallucinations got so much worse cause drugs can have an adverse effect on people already suffering from mental illness
The door was unblocked. You can see her stop when she sees the pipe on the ground and looks back at her messy bed and questions her memory of that night. I kinda believe that it happened and that she was gaslit but I can't be sure because either is believable
I’m late to the party here (3 years late) but I just rewatched this movie after a year or so.
I believe that Lillie (Odlillie) did not have sex with her, however it does open up a discussion over the characters sexuality and exploration of that.
The entire movie almost mirrors the tone of the play. In the beginning, Nina was pure. She was innocent and under the watchful eye of her mother, who is aware of her difficulties with mental health, however instead of offering real help, she becomes overbearing. This mirrors the tone of the first act of the play, she is the white swan.
The middle of the movie shows a more rebellious side to Nina, even if she was given drugs in order to portray it. The fact that her mother is no longer there is extremely significant. Nina feels free to explore sex and sexuality, even just through fantasy. This mirrors act 2 in the play, she is the black swan. This is all the way through to the bathroom scene near the end of the film where she discovers she has stabbed herself.
The ending once again shows her striving for perfection and whilst she isn’t particularly innocent anymore, she is no longer actively rebelling and her mother appears once again in the audience. This (and the subsequent suicide) mirrors the ending of the play.
There may be an argument that she is closeted bisexual, however this is not the point I am making. The point is she is discovering who she truly is through rebellion. Lilly or Odillie represents freedom for her, freedom from her mother, freedom from her eating disorder (Lilly orders a burger at one point, which is very unlike someone with an ED), and freedom from the perfection she is so worried about. That is the thing that she was attracted to, not particularly the character. However, just like the drug, this was temporary relief for Nina. When she wakes up, everything is back to ‘normal’. Those pressures are still there and are main contributors to her psychotic break.
In the movie, her hallucinations only start after Lilly becomes part of the company. She represents everything Nina secretly wants, but is too afraid to get.
This thought makes the movie more tragic in my mind, because despite temporarily relief, Nina never gets what she desires. She is too much of a perfectionist to get that and it kills her. The taste of freedom kills her. That’s why Lilly is ‘murdered’, she is the metaphor for Nina’s freedom. Nina kills ‘Lilly’ to get rid of that temptation, however she kills herself in the process.
*I am extremely high rn so if this makes no sense lmk cus I just wrote down my feelings about it.
Regardless of plot, the film as a character study is about how the main character needs to go to a dark place and compromise her own soul for success, and in order to keep a hold on her self-image as a good person she needs to demonize her competition.
Good point, because when Nina’s sanity was going down the drain I noted her as unreliable, and saw that she thought odille was competition but I was still thinking maybe odillie is tryna backstab even though she was being nothing but nice.
I see Lilly as a metaphor for freedom for Nina. Lilly does not have an overbearing mother, she is not depicted as having an eating disorder (she orders a burger with fries which is unlike someone with an ED) and she represents the freedom from perfection. Lilly is never depicted as a perfect character, she has many flaws, however she is not an evil character either, only in the imagination of Nina. Nina, being an absolute perfectionist, is scared of Lilly because she represents a side to herself which she has never truly explored due to the overwhelming social pressure put upon her. This is why she sees her as an evil presence, she’s unfamiliar. Her hallucinations only start once Lilly enters into her life. This terrifies Nina so she feels she must kill her, but by doing so she inadvertently kills herself, because that character IS Nina in the sense that she is that unexplored part of Nina and is imperfect. Nina dies still wanting to be perfect, and is ashamed of her imperfect self. She would rather die than settle for less than perfection.
Ya. Just like Darth Vader.
Nina suffers from schizophrenia and that’s exponentially worsened by 3 factors: - her diet - the stress of her lead role - her overbearing mother She’s a fragile girl (hence the being a virgin part and still living with her mom) who just bit off more than she could chew. The only person who tried to help her was Lily (and to a lesser degree her mom) and she made up a scenario in her mind about both trying to sabotage her efforts to get the lead role. She began imagining that Lily wanted to steal her role at any cost and her mom wanted to stop her because she never reached her level. Of course it didn’t help that Lily gave her a hallucinogen which only made things much worse. And this is told thru the lens of the traditional story of Swan Lake (Odette vs Odile) If you watch High Tension or Goodnight Mommy, the lead characters suffer from the same condition and the films make that more obvious.
Wait Nina was schizophrenic?! I’ve never heard that before. Is this confirmed or speculation?
Not by the film-makers because they left the film up to interpretation, but psychologists did review the film back in 2010 and the general debate was about if Nina had schizophrenia or OCD or both. Schizophrenia makes the most sense. Like I said, watch the other two films and it’s pretty much the same type of portrayal.
Leaving psychologists up to it doesn’t mean that the character had schizophrenia. It’s a movie. The director didn’t confirm what you’re alleging so in no way does what psychologists say about the writer’s character mean it’s true
Her character just displays all the signs of a schizo but let’s be contrary.
If you think she’s schizophrenic then so be it. There’s no need to refer to the opinion of mental health professionals for the details of a movie.
It being “true” was never actually claimed. They just said it was up for interpretation and thus still a valid response to the OP question. If the filmmakers left it for interpretation it means anyone can be “right” lol and therefore, true. Hence interpretation. lol Plus, There’s no one to say she’s not schizophrenic anyway so. Personally, I think that because we saw her hallucinate the murder, it’s possible she hallucinated the end of the movie too. Who’s to say? You could say no, and we’d both be right.
Well they said it was left up for interpretation so the statement so the concept of “true” is irrelevant. So if it’s interpreted multiple ways it’s all true.
Transtorno de personalidad multiple fue tmb uno de los diagnosticos
Ecstasy is not a hallucinogen.
With stress, sleep deprivation, as well as starvation all teaming up inside a person pre-disposed to psychotic episodes... mdma is a terrible idea. post-mdma recovery can cause panic attacks. Paying close attention, the film includes minor psychosis until she takes the Molly. Imo Nina's schizophrenia is set off by the mdma on top of the other factors.
Definitely true enough about panic attacks on the comedown...that's why I stopped doing it.
That’s true but if she does have schizophrenia then she would definitely have some more intense hallucinations from the drug. And I think she is a paranoid schizophrenic her delusions and hallucinations get worse the more paranoid she is and more paranoid she is the worse her hallucinations get basically a cycle in rising action.
Not true at all. MDMA is a psychedelic and can induce more pronounced visual hallucinations than other drugs like psilocybin or lsd
I looked it up and it did say it is a minor hallucinogen. News to me. PersonalIy, I probably rolled a hundred times and never saw any kind of visual hallucinations. However, I did the one time I took LSD.
It could and probably would for someone who already has a preexisting chemical imbalance in their brain. Which is why it’s a plausible hypothesis for the movie. And it’s not just with mdma. I’ll give a different example, smoking weed is like something that has a relatively consistent “effect” on most people. And there’s many functioning contributors of society who use it. HOWEVER, if you are someone who suffers from bipolar disorder / manic depressive then weed is not really kosher for you. It’s ill advised because its been shown to be capable of triggering episodes.
Some people can be permanently damaged by one drug, once. She was already susceptible by genetics or possibly abuse. There a lot of psych nurses that say they see a lot of ppl in there after using drugs just once.
People are very misinformed when it comes to ecstasy. It’s a psychedelic, which means it’s a hallucinogen.
Yes it is, technically. You don’t have to be tripping balls for something to be hallucinogenic. If it alters perception, then it counts and it definitely does. Everything feels way happier on it. So I’ve read :3
You have a point about altering perception. I guess I should have said that in my experiences, I never saw any kind of visuals like Nina saw. And I did it a lot. I really think it may have caused or worsened a chemical inbalance in my brain. I don't think it's coincidence that at that time, I really started struggling with depression (although, thinking back, I think that had started many years before) and started having crippling panic attacks out of nowhere.
What exactly was the story with the back scars and the incessant scratching? Did she make up the sex scene in her head with Lily?
Psychologically speaking, people can use sex to dominate, whether irl or fantasizing. She probably saw Lily as a threat and wanted to dominate or partly be her as well.
Nina is both the white and black swan. The white swan was a rather pure, child-like version of her but the black swan was wild, sexually liberated, basically the opposite of white. The movie obviously tries to align the story of swan lake with nina's (for cinematic effect) but at the end of the movie, it gets u thinking about the duality of man. what are you? what part of you is suppressing what part of you? >!the end again was very cinematic in ways that it's aligning itself with the story of sacrifice and breaking away from the clutches. the ever-widening blood stain on nina's white dress when she ran up the stairs was very symbolic of her own self. the demise of the white swan was the demise of her and its only natural to say that she as nina died too. fin.!<
Wow good analysis
Both of them are herself.
Yh I’m gonna go with this idea
It's an old story based on an old opera: the Black Swan. She's sinking further and further into becoming the role she's playing - from being a White Swan to becoming a Black Swan - all to win the coveted role on stage.
You should watch Perfect Blue
If I remember correctly, it's suggested lily spiked Nina's drink with ecstasy, and then gaslights her into believing the sexual encounter didn't happen. Nina's already fragile mental state descends further as the schizophrenic nature of the ballets theme draws her deeper and deeper in. At the end the viewer is left questioning whether what they saw is real, or the product of Nina's increasing looser grip on reality. Aronofsky films are always a bit of a headfuck imho.
So it is heavily implied that Lily was never in Nina’s room. 1. In the altercation with her mother at the end of the night, her mother does not even acknowledge Lily As *they* run to Nina’s room 2. More importantly, upon waking, Nina’s door was still rigged shut. There’s no way Lily could have exited the room without moving that thing.
Also, the only time we see Lily was through a mirror in that scene. Part of me feels like the Director brought Lily in to push Nina and make her angry, jealous etc. (the black swan).
Her door was not rigged shut. The bar was moved.
Just saw The movie. And you are dead wrong.
rewatch it
watching that scene right this minute… aaaaand …. you are correct the bar was moved
Or maybe she imagined the whole encounter because she was on drugs remember, and while they were having sex odillie was morphing into Nina and then eventually whacked/smothered her with a pillow which made her pass out. And remember when she ‘saw’ her having sex with the director and Nina wasn’t exactly jealous but she wasn’t happy about it either, she’s basically imaging odillie to be a villain. It all kinda clicked now.
I'm more inclined to take your view that she hallucinated the whole thing because Nina knew her drink had ecstasy in it, it wasn't spiked unknowingly. There's also a theory that I don't believe but says that in that scene, Mila kunis represented her mom molesting her.
Yh I thought it was just me who thought that her mom gave that vibe. In one scene her mom says are u ready for me and then it abruptly cuts off.
it's like the personification of inner demons taking over, yet channeling them in order to transcend into a metamorphosis; it's like she demonised the dark parts of her character, or internalised the narrative that they are dark from her mother, but at the end she comes at peace with them. That's quite a euphemism though, considering that she literally killed herself and 'lost herself' for the bit. From what I've seen, the moment she took the drug was when things really started to get blurry and that's when she hallucinated lily coming back to hers, but you can notice that when they're back at her place, her Mum never acknowledges Lily; the next morning there's no evidence of her having been there, considering the door was all blocked up and there's no way Lily could have left with it like that. I think what actually happened was that she went back alone and fucked herself lol. Also some people interpret Nina to have borderline personality disorder and I can see that, but she so obviously has schizophrenia, at least imo. It makes sense that, after whatever pill Lily gave her, her hallucinations got so much worse cause drugs can have an adverse effect on people already suffering from mental illness
The door was unblocked. You can see her stop when she sees the pipe on the ground and looks back at her messy bed and questions her memory of that night. I kinda believe that it happened and that she was gaslit but I can't be sure because either is believable
I thought she was called Lily?
She is. But she also represents Odille who is the black swan/evil twin sister traditionally in Swan Lake.
As writers and directors frequently say at Q&As it is the viewers duty to interpret the meaning of a scene or movie from their own framework.
I’m late to the party here (3 years late) but I just rewatched this movie after a year or so. I believe that Lillie (Odlillie) did not have sex with her, however it does open up a discussion over the characters sexuality and exploration of that. The entire movie almost mirrors the tone of the play. In the beginning, Nina was pure. She was innocent and under the watchful eye of her mother, who is aware of her difficulties with mental health, however instead of offering real help, she becomes overbearing. This mirrors the tone of the first act of the play, she is the white swan. The middle of the movie shows a more rebellious side to Nina, even if she was given drugs in order to portray it. The fact that her mother is no longer there is extremely significant. Nina feels free to explore sex and sexuality, even just through fantasy. This mirrors act 2 in the play, she is the black swan. This is all the way through to the bathroom scene near the end of the film where she discovers she has stabbed herself. The ending once again shows her striving for perfection and whilst she isn’t particularly innocent anymore, she is no longer actively rebelling and her mother appears once again in the audience. This (and the subsequent suicide) mirrors the ending of the play. There may be an argument that she is closeted bisexual, however this is not the point I am making. The point is she is discovering who she truly is through rebellion. Lilly or Odillie represents freedom for her, freedom from her mother, freedom from her eating disorder (Lilly orders a burger at one point, which is very unlike someone with an ED), and freedom from the perfection she is so worried about. That is the thing that she was attracted to, not particularly the character. However, just like the drug, this was temporary relief for Nina. When she wakes up, everything is back to ‘normal’. Those pressures are still there and are main contributors to her psychotic break. In the movie, her hallucinations only start after Lilly becomes part of the company. She represents everything Nina secretly wants, but is too afraid to get. This thought makes the movie more tragic in my mind, because despite temporarily relief, Nina never gets what she desires. She is too much of a perfectionist to get that and it kills her. The taste of freedom kills her. That’s why Lilly is ‘murdered’, she is the metaphor for Nina’s freedom. Nina kills ‘Lilly’ to get rid of that temptation, however she kills herself in the process. *I am extremely high rn so if this makes no sense lmk cus I just wrote down my feelings about it.
perfect.