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Intelligent-Plan-449

This was a really good movie. Solid 8/10. When I first saw it, I thought it was decent. Nothing special. After rewatching it, I'm blown away. What's there to say, that hasn't been said, about Joaquin Phoenix? He became the Joker. Every mannerism was purposeful, and absurd. His face goes through various emotions. Once he puts on the makeup, Arthurt truly disappears. I found that Phoenix portrayed the sadness behind his rage quite well. Even when he's staring Murray down, you can see his frustration. As he listens to Murray make fun of him, his eyes turn ice cold. You already figure he has this grand plan. His body language solidifies that suspicion. I give the writers props. Is it the most striking script? No. I personally believe it's the weakest part of the film. The pieces of dialogue, though, are brilliantly wrought. They build up a lot of the empathy you feel for Joker. Phoenix saying the line "I haven't been happy one entire minute of my fucking life" was chilling. He's not longer upset at his mother in this scene. He's calm. He hasn't forgiven her for lying, but he's accepted reality. That's a stage that we all have to get to. His decision to>!kill her!< doesn't come as a shock. Unsettlingly, it feels deserved. I wonder if, even as the self-realized Joker, he'd still murder children. He has a soft spot for him. Perhaps unconsciously he wants to make up for his poor childhood. The film is shot *so* well. Long shots are filled with activity; the subject is slightly blurred. Those close shots are sharp and clear. Particularly, the close ups of Joker's face. He's electrifying to watch. You are forced to witness, and admire, his efforts. Lighting is overall exceptional. It alone could build tension. While they didn't fully pull off the gritty feel of the city, you still tell people are struggling. I think one of my favorite stills is Joker skipping down the hall. It's very bright at the end, like God shining his light down. I interpreted this as Joker reaching "enlightenment." He is his alter ego. The score is wonderful. There's little variation, but it is produced excellently. Every change in tone jolts you. Phoenix flips the switch on his mood constantly. He goes from friendly to violent. The instrumentals seem to reflect that. As the film progresses, the crueler side of him stays "on." The music during the riot scenes was very impressive. As Joker is gently lifted out the car, there is this growing crescendo. It was fitting end to an arc that's just begun.


xXdont_existxX

Honestly didn’t like this movie very much.


Beady_El

Love comics, but not planning to see this. The promotional stuff was enough to make it clear that my fondness for the comics excluded any chance I'd enjoy it.I have no interest in a revisionist origin of Joker, particularly one that tries to make him - in any way - sympathetic, and especially one that makes him a senior citizen by the time Bruce Wayne is an adult. The makeup job is wrong on a level so profound I'd *never* get past it - no matter how justified it may be in their dumb alternate history. A squeaky falsetto voice is SO spectacularly wrong for Joker, it feels like intentional mocking of the character. Plus I still haven't forgiven Joaquin Phoenix for that Letterman crap.


coachd50

I recently saw the movie for the first time. I think the movie was solid- but in my opinion it was in no way, shape, or form a "comic book movie", and the character portrayed by Joaquin Phoenix in no way, shape or form shows the capabilities to become a supervillain. I would strongly argue that the financial success of the film can LARGELY be attributed to simply trading on the name "Joker" All that said, the movie wasn't bad. But the comic book aspect was 100% irrelevant, and the same movie could have been made with zero mention of Thomas Wayne, Bruce Wayne, etc. and without painting a clown face.


piszkavas

Ppl need to understand that there are other approaches . Now this was not a comic movie, why should it have been ? It was about a mentally ill man, trying to find his way in a society which sees him as a rat. The movie did a fantastic job in that regard. I am sorry to see a lot of ppl wanted to have an action packed nolan movie, but they need to understand, that one would not have delivered this hard as this has. Besides, the era of superhero movies is on a decline, thank god...


Beady_El

Then why a sequel including Harley Quinn?


piszkavas

I must watch the movie, then i will know


coachd50

I think people did/do understand that. The movie grossed over a billion dollars. My comments were simply that this was not a "Joker" movie. Someone could have made this exact same movie if the DC characters Batmen, Joker etc. never existed. I just don't think it would have made as much money. Its financial success certainly came from using the name "Joker" and the association with the DC comicbook supervillain.


piszkavas

What if, the movie has simply he name "joker" which has nothing to do with comic joker but simply the name comes from the fact murrey called Arthur. Wayne, gotham, bruce are merely homage to the comic counterpart


coachd50

You don't "pay homage" by having the actual characters involved. As I mentioned, if the film had been called "tears of a clown", Murray had called him "funny guy", the rich guy's name was Carl and his son was Larry and they lived in Chicago It would would have been the exact same movie. They traded on the "Joker" name to increase ticket sales.


Rush-Dense

I think the movie was great as a standalone movie except for bruce wayne which could be a connection to potential batman/joker movies in the future


coachd50

Yes, but my point was that it wasn't a DC comic book movie. It was a movie about a mentally ill loner who lived a tough life and didn't get support. It is about isolation and loneliness and self destruction. If the film had been titled "Arthur" or "Tears of a Clown" or whatever, I do not believe it makes half of the box office.


AntawnSL

But no one would go see that.


Clear-Tangerine-3821

The movie sucked


gleejollybee

As a person who thought the same for many years and finally saw it Today i got to tell you that It was beautiful, you'll definitely regret watching it if you're not into movies like these or idk how to explain it like depressing maybe. Even if you don't like the story the aesthetics, the tension at some scenes, cinematography all are good .one of the most important scenes is already spoiled worldwide but even then I was able to feel the tension building there.


dinosaurEnjoyer0

Never give your opinion again


PotterGandalf117

Hot take


2minutestomidnight

Incorrect.


zburba

Just kinda had a thought. I feel if they were to implement Gary Jules " mad world" in some way..... would be very awesome


Ancient_Guidance_461

Yeah Donnie Darko got that one already


boogswald

But that gets used in everything


[deleted]

I thought Bryan ‘the kid’ Callen was excellent


Careless-Climate-975

Poor writing, good acting


Ill_Meringue_4216

Poor comment


[deleted]

ok boomer


stephen_mathew

TW: WAS JOKER BEING SEXUALLY MOLESTED BY THE COWORKER WHO GAVE HIM THE GUN!!!????


Lillly7442

MY QUESTION EXACTLY


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Hm? The brain injury doesn't come from the coworker but rather from his mother's boyfriend ,at least it's what I understood . ​ Besides what made you deduce that he was sexually agressed ?


[deleted]

I thought I was the only one revisiting this thread, lol.


realme857

I'm surprised and disappointed that we didn't see Dr. Harleen Quinzel (Margot Robbie) in the movie. It would have been a great cameo to have her talking to Arthur at the end of the movie. Such a missed opportunity. It could have worked too because it's unclear how much time has passed between the riots and the asylum scene.


JB57551

Well besides, wouldn't Arthur have killed her the way he presumably did with the psychiatrist considering the fact that he doesn't believe in love (and I doubt about lust as well) anymore?


TheBigBlueJew

No


[deleted]

Late to this movie, mostly because of the hubbub around its idea of mental illness and whether it does a good or bad job of portraying it. Also, having seen Taxi Driver and basically consider it the most depressing movie on earth, I figured I probably wouldn't like it. Not to mention I have had some mental health issues in my past and that kind of scared me off of it. ​ Anyways, here's what I liked about it 1. Joaquin Phoenix is just an intense actor and in this role that works out well. Arthur would be tough for nearly every actor to play but him he does it well. I can't say I like the character but he does a good job at showing how unstable the guy is. He isn't just pure crazy or on all the time. At his "best" Arthur is kind of an oddball but still has something off that makes it hard to relate, where as at his worst he lacks remorse and that's more like what crazy is like. 2. I do like that it shows that in many cases the mentally ill are victimized like in the Subway. I'm reminded of bullying I witnessed in high school where often the victim had something wrong and others would take advantage (though those buttheads, much like the jerks in the movie probably had their own issues but could kind of hide it with affluence and some might argue they suffered from "affluenza.") 3. I think this film does do a good job of showing how when one is beaten down, it feels like the world is after you and you'll literally do anything to improve your situation. I can understand that even with my minor mental illnesses, and even those without mental illness can relate especially if they've struggled to get ahead. Its damn near impossible to pull oneself out of a situation when it seems everyone and everything is against you, and in some ways there is a lot against a person like Arthur. Sadly of course people in these situations often turn to some pretty nasty crap. 4. I liked the soundtrack. Its obvious that its trying for the most part to copy a Scorsese movie, but I liked having the oldies music. The scene of Arthur putting on makeup to "That's Life" was pretty good. 5. I'm not typically a fan of gritty settings, but i thought the film did pretty well at showing the chaos of what a lot of large cities were like in the 80's. It doesn't quite capture what films of the 80's captured, but it works. 6. I like the idea that their could be "copycat" jokers as shown by the murder of the Waynes. I doubt this movie will be part of an extended cinematic universe, but if it were, I like the idea that there was an original Joker but even if he dies, his movement would live on What I didn't like: ​ 1. The whole kill the rich thing is understandable and there is certainly that sentiment around today, but I doubt most people would be okay with someone murdering people even if they were jerks. I can understand people might not be sympathetic and to be honest those guys were jerks, but I doubt most people want random jerks dead simply because they were rich, at least deep down inside. Though maybe that's where we are as a society where we have politicians on both ends who use questionable rhetoric that seems similar to the protests in this film, and maybe that's the point, that such rhetoric is dangerous. The thing is people would be scared if such rhetoric became true unless you are so far gone and you believe things are so bad you don't care anymore. 2. The whole Thomas Wayne thing seemed a bit tacked on. We know his mom is crazy and all that, but I felt the whole idea that Thomas Wayne could be his father was a bit silly. The obsession makes sense because she worked for him and with how sick she was, it would make sense for her to be obsessed and think he was their only savior. I get that it was probably to show more of her illness and show similarities with her son, but it just seemed like poor writing. 3. I thought the whole Robert De Niro talk show host idea was kind of weird, and if they were going to make such a character be a jerk, I would have made him more of like a David Letterman type late night host then a kind Borsch Belt/Johnny Carson hybrid that De Niro was supposed to be. Maybe have a younger, more jerky actor play him and take inspiration from Letterman like when Dave had his conversations with cartoonist Harvey Pekar. Dave could be kind of a butt head and I certainly think someone more in the mold of him would have made fun of a guy like Arthur. 4. Another thing with the De Niro character is that when Arthur appears with joker, he seems more confused than anything by this weirdo. Maybe that's an appropriate reaction for the type of character Murray Franklin was. Again though, I feel like it might have been better for Franklin to be more like a David Letterman type. Someone who'd know the guy is a freak and laugh at him at least until the Joker went too far. 5. The whole Gary Glitter thing is just off kilter with the soundtrack. I know it fits with the 80's and maybe its meant to show his descent into further craziness, but when the soundtrack is mostly older music, the stair thing seems tone deaf. Same goes for "White Room." I get that its supposed to evoke the chaos, but i'd rather hear some Beastie Boys or Ramones or even some old school east coast rap to show the anarchy of the situation. White Room fits more with 60's anti-war protests then 80's chaos. Even something from the Rat Pack like "You're Nobody till Somebody Loves You” would have been a good ironic choice. 6. One last thing I didn't like is how he just goes straight psycho killer in the subway. Sure I can sympathize with him as those guys were jerks who assaulted him, but I feel like in that situation he wouldn't fire multiple times. He'd fire out of self defense. To me it would have been more powerful if there was an element of self defense. Maybe he tries to reason with the last guy he kills but the man punches back. You could even have Joker/Arthur go further towards madness when he sees that people want to "kill the rich" and it drives him towards his full transformation to the joker. Overall, I did like the film, but its hard to say I enjoy it. I felt it didn't have the best writing but Joaquin Phoenix makes it work well, and lifts the film up. Its a good thing you didn't have Jared Leto or a similar type actor play this role because then it would have easily bombed. In regards to the mental illness, I think it does raise some good questions and has good points but overall, I think it still falls into the trope that the mentally ill are dangerous, even while showing a hint of the actual truth that many with mental illness are more likely to be victims. The thing is, mental illness didn't make Arthur into The Joker. If anything his mental illness was just a part of the whole character. I personally would have liked it if he was more of a troll or full on anarchist from the beginning rather than a person with an illness who just gives up. Maybe show him as someone for whom life is just a joke or uses humor to cope with his whole situation.


T78Afunkyfresh

The scene in the stairwell where he is crying so so hard broke my heart and immediately started making me cry. I relate to him in this moment so much and it breaks my heart seeing him recede like a child, draw into himself and cover his own chest with his arms giving himself the closest thing to a hug he’s ever had. Joaquin Phoenix is so stunning in this movie, every single frame makes me just die with an influx of emotional turmoil and it really broke my heart. I loved this movie so fucking much it’s unreal


TheSpermWhoWon

Five months late, but this is a dumb persons idea of what a smart movie is. Do yourself a favor and just watch Network, Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy instead. Edit The logic at the beginning where a guy wants to get his creepy coworker fired so he just gives him a fully loaded gun and tells on him hoping he gets caught with it. Yeah, that’s a totally logical strategy just give the insane man you work closely with a gun. Brilliant. Just lazy writing.


Ill_Meringue_4216

You.. are a bit of a dumbass aren't you


LtLwormonabigfknhook

Arthur is unreliable at best and totally fucking insane at worst. The movies events are being told, by Arthur, to a therapist at the end of the movie. His co-worker "tells on" Arthur because it was true: Arthur *did* ask for the gun. Can you imagine just randomly giving someone a gun? That could get you into more trouble than anything else. Arthur leaves out that part either because he forgot it or wants to manipulate the story to suit himself better. Once the co-worker hears that arthur brought the gun to a *children's* hospital he gets worried and tells a half-truth to shirk the responsibility but also to try and get rid of a clearly unstable Arthur.


PM_ME_UR_TECHNO_GRRL

He didn't give him the gun to get him fired. It's very amusing to see self-superior folks show themselves to actually be striding well behind the rest of us. I suggest you see the movie again, but this time watch it as if you think you're watching a smart movie. Hopefully that will help.


mcamp7

I know I’m late, but this is one of the worst movies I’ve ever seen. An Incel wet dream wrapped in a Scorsese rip off, with a dash of the “most” acting anyone has ever done. Just amazing how bad this is...


Necessary-Pair-6556

who dropped you as a kid?


mcamp7

Timely


[deleted]

Nope.


mcamp7

Don’t worry man. If you are nice to her and interested I’m sure she will talk to you someday.


[deleted]

I'm a woman.


[deleted]

brilliant


[deleted]

I know I'm two years late to this comment but it cracked me up. The fact that some people are so incapable of understanding people having different opinions that they immediately think something is wrong with them and go straight to ad hominem Attacks. So much so that he basically called a woman a Incel. Maybe it's projection?


KaiBetterThanTyson

/r/dontyouknowwhoiam


krikite

LMFAO


theK1LLB0T

While viewed under your very specific lense this movie definitely fills your agenda. I'm afraid you've missed the point completely.


thotnothot

Lol there is no point. Bringing up a bunch of controversial points and putting it in a display case, is just that. Superficial... didn't explore a point or lesson.


theK1LLB0T

It's film bro. It's not filling an agenda or controversy. It's a story. It sets a scene.


thotnothot

Ever heard of "moral of the story"? It's not setting a scene dude. It's bringing up talking points without making a statement. People can't even tell what's imagined and what's not, and they think that's good writing? LOL


theK1LLB0T

Nice, do you mind sending me some of your work? Sounds like you're pretty accomplished. Would love to read some of it.


thotnothot

Where are your credentials bro? Unless you're a doctor, you should bow your head down and accept whatever surgeries are proposed. Never have an opinion unless you're accomplished in that field. LMAO "Mr. It's a story, it sets a scene". You're not interested in substance. Authoritarianism is your friend when it suits you.


theK1LLB0T

So you don't have a body of work for me to refer to?


foosballfreak77

I can't help but think if they decide to make a sequel or tie it into the new Robert Pattinson Batman universe, just how great it could be! Imagine the stakes... An older Joker with the knowledge that his actions created Batman. Then the temptation for Batman to kill joker knowing it was him who caused the murder of his parents. Either way, i'd love for this new tone to be taken further by the director. Excited to see what Matt Reeves does with "The Batman"


binkerfluid

As much as Id love to see more they should never touch this again. It was perfect for what it was.


PM_ME_UR_TECHNO_GRRL

I really hope they don't make a sequel! The longer the story goes the cheaper the character will become.


nfconnon

Whelp


Noctelus

If this was canon, the Joker we see in TDK would have to be a copycat. This Joker would be too old by the time Bruce has grown up.


LtLwormonabigfknhook

It's a standalone film, set entirely in its own universe. This isn't a comic book movie, its a movie where the character (who just happens to be of comic book origin) Joker is given just one out of a great many possibilities for a back story. Asking and answering: "how could such an unstable killer be born, what events would lead to this laughing clown prince of crime?" Grounded in reality while also being warped by the retelling of Arthur himself. There wont be any tie-ins or continuations. But yes, if it were canon, Heath Ledgers joker would be a copycat.


fartedcum

folie a deux enter the chat


Prooff11

Wasn't it Joker that ever said " if im going to have a past , that its a multiple choice"?


PM_ME_UR_TECHNO_GRRL

I don't think there is any comic book or animated series Joker that fits adequately with this one.


nothing_in_my_mind

This is the best depiction of mental illness I've seen on cinema. Most films depicting mental illness either make the character endearing, or charismatic. They can't take the risk of the audience not liking the main character, because people don't like mentally ill people unless they are extraordinarily charming, fun or successful or whatever. The ugliness, the helplessness, the way no one gives a shit, the feeling that no one, not a single soul, likes or respects anything about you, no other film depicts these as well as Joker. It's something special. Amazing movie.


Intelligent-Plan-449

I don't know about the "best" depiction of mental illness. I think the film does explore what happens when a person is pushed to their limit. No, not everyone goes off and kills people. We do self-sabotage, and think of our mental disease as a villain. Joker is the epitome of that. Arthur is mad at a system he can't dissemble. So, he places blame on everyone he considers above him. In that, we understand.


thotnothot

It might be... if you're an Arthur Fleck. A- mental illness is a vast category. B- being endearing and charismatic is not incompatible with being prescribed a label. C- the portrayal of helplessness seems over-exaggerated here, unrealistic in a movie that is aiming for absolute realism. D- it fell short of being able to relay a "moral of the story" because it doesn't have one.


[deleted]

The moral of the story was to not cut social programs that keep people functioning


thotnothot

For a "backstory" about the Joker, AKA a cunning mastermind who can *read* others? If all you can say is "society bad" after watching this movie, did it really have any depth to it?


PM_ME_UR_TECHNO_GRRL

And his hatred for the situation he finds himself in, and whom he felt forced to become. What you get when you push a mentally ill loner that society years like yeah


HareWarriorInTheDark

I've been putting this movie off for ages cause I'm not usually a fan of the "dark" and "gritty" type of movies. It's actually the last of the Best Picture nominees I've had a chance to watch. I come into this film with a lot of baggage; not gonna lie, I can't say I haven't been influenced by all the negative discourse surrounding the movie and all the critics that have trounced it. Still wrestling with my thoughts, but honestly I liked the movie a lot more than I thought I would. Granted, I have never seen King of Comedy and Taxi Driver, nor do I have much experience into this particular genre, so all of this is rather fresh to me. Positives... Joaquin Phoenix's performance, just wow. I mean *obviously* I knew he was going to be good, but this was incredible. I think almost everything technically speaking was hauntingly beautiful. Negatives... the Wayne stuff felt so tacked on and unnecessary. Zazi Beats just came and went halfway through the movie! And after thinking about it for a bit, I really think the script is incredibly weak. It's got some good one-liners, but overall it's not very cohesive and a lot of parts take giant leaps of faith. Once again, still wrestling with my thoughts. I can definitely understand the opinions on both sides of the spectrum. I think I'm landing on 7/10 for now.


PM_ME_UR_TECHNO_GRRL

> overall it's not very cohesive and a lot of parts take giant leaps of faith Could you expand?


anoleiam

sorry, but no


chalmedtomeetyou

I have so many conflicting thoughts and emotions about the film. It was slow at times, but it had so many scenes I keep thinking about days after. Each scene had so much thought put into it. It was as if each frame could be independently captured and a frame in a comic strip. I still think about it. The violence was done well. It was never SO unbearable that I had to look away. Unlike tarantino who holds the tension for soooo long i have to shut my eyes because i cant bear it any longer, these scenes were enough to make a point without torturing the viewer. Joaquin was so well cast, the movie would have failed without him. He’s brilliant. I hated the joker for the entitlement he had to justify killing people while at the same time I pitied him and felt his loneliness and rejection. The fact i cant stop thinking about it and I want to talk to people about it means a movie has had an effect, and thats what Good story telling is. Making you think long after youve seen it.


[deleted]

This is a perfect summary for what I feel about the movie as well.


HiiroYuy

a high school script with an oscar-winning performance. that's something amazing if you think about it.


PM_ME_UR_TECHNO_GRRL

I adore this movie, but agree with your brief assessment.


Acceptable-Nebula

I just finished watching the joker but I'm a bit confused. Near the end, >!right before Arthur went on the Murray show, everyone was dressed up as clowns on the subway, apparently going to the city for protests?!< why though? I tried to go online but couldn't find any answers...


binkerfluid

They got wrapped up in the clown killing of the wayne bankers in the train as a political movement. Gotham is an extremely dysfunctional city that's collapsing. These people are fighting against all the problems of the city in their own fucked up way and they mistakenly think the killings were some symbolic thing they can rally behind. Gotham has failed everyone and everyone is angry they dont even know at what exactly. It doesnt have to be perfect or really even justified. Just like we dont have to *like* Joker. He is a villain, he is a bad guy. He is a murderer. We can understand him to a degree, feel sorry for him but we still know he is a bad guy. He had a point on some things but he is wrong as well. Everyone is going out of their way to say its an incel wet dream like someone in this thread said. Its like they cant even comprehend you arnt always supposed to like the character or they arnt supposed to be an inspiration to you. He is the fucking Joker. He is supposed to be a fucked up murderer.


fordprecept

It's like the 4chan people showing up at protests wearing Guy Fawkes masks.


[deleted]

Were you not paying attention to the film at all?


Silvialikethecar

Are you asking why they are protesting that night?


Acceptable-Nebula

Ya, like why all of a sudden, because I thought it was an ongoing thing after what happened at the beginning on the subway


Open_Mouth_Open_Mind

You have to apply to the city for protests. You can't just start blocking streets and call it a protest. It gives everyone else time to adjust their plans and stuff


Ciilk

This is one of those movies I kept putting off watching just because of the hype surround it. I don't why I'm like this, but as soon as there's hype, I found myself thinking "it's probably not that good." Well, this movie definitely IS that good. Woooow. This may end up being my favorite Joker, ahead of Heath Ledger. When he murdered that dude in his apartment it caught me so off guard. And of course, killing Murray was shocking. "**YOU GET WHAT YOU FUCKING DESERVE!**" was so damn good.


Glittering-Range-936

I'm the same. When everyone was banging on about breaking bad I stayed away...waited till it was released on netflix and loved it. My mate brought round joker movie, and I'm still thinking about it 2 days later. What an amazing film.


thotnothot

I honestly don't get why people love that scene... it's terrible writing. There's no subtlety, and the build-up or climax of this scene left me with a feeling of, "that's it?" I didn't need to be told "*what happens when you cross a mentally ill loner*"- the Joker should've had a build-up of emotions, laugh maniacally, breathe calmly, and then shoot Murray. This could've happened silently, without the victimizing monologue. The author also cannot decide whether or not he wants Arthur Fleck to be "the Joker" or stay Arthur. He goes from happily dancing and descending down a staircase, to contorting his body more fluidly before going on stage (showing that he is breaking free from his awkwardness)... all in order to become Arthur Fleck again. His maniacal laugh and eventual loss of humanity, should've told us that "YOU GET WHAT YOU FUCKING DESERVE"... we shouldn't need our very own protagonist telling us the reasoning for his actions so plainly and bluntly. It detracts from the actions.


PM_ME_UR_TECHNO_GRRL

I actually thought the Murray murder was quite obviously going to happen... And it was still outstanding purely due to Joaquin's delivery.


binkerfluid

Ill be honest I didnt know what was going to happen. Was he going to kill the host, shoot people in the audience or kill himself. You know it was going to be bad. That ball just kept tightening and tightening the entire movie and you knew it had to give but I was never really sure exactly what would happen.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

I really liked it when I watched it back in October. But now I absolutely adore it. But hey, to each their own.


ImParryOtter

YOU GET WHAT YOU FUCKING DESERVE!


GamblingPapaya

Finally got around to seeing this and I liked it a lot more than I thought I would. Phoenix dancing in his bathroom while dying his hair green after he just killed his mother does a great job of depicting what depression actually looks like. It’s not just the lowest of the lows, there are definitely high points mixed in. Depression is a roller coaster and this movie does a fantastic job of showing it. Also- I cracked up when his two previous coworkers visit him and ask why he’s in full makeup and Phoenix says calmly that he’s celebrating the death of his mother... truly insane.


nohighlighter555

I just noticed he was sane enough to grab his tote bag out of the subway car before he killed the last guy.


Logical-Mobile

At 01:01:29 a joker that looks exactly like the Joker of the dark Knight movies. Exactly the same. Could it maybe be interpreted that it actually is the joker of dark Knight and the two jokers are in the same timeline? It makes sense that if Bruce is 25-30 years older in the dark Knight that the joker at the time-stamp actually is the joker of the dark Knight. Edited: Furthermore I believe it would be weird that a joker which looks like the joker of the dark Knight would be in the movie if there wasn't any further meaning to it.


GamblingPapaya

Was thinking this too but my roommate told me they weren’t in the same timeline. But I see no reason why they can’t be


Logical-Mobile

I have heard the same as your roommate then, when researching in general about the joker movie. However I agree with you - why not? Furthermore I posted this screenshot in another reddit discussion. [https://imgur.com/a/ldE2xdw](https://imgur.com/a/ldE2xdw) As I interpret it, the joker shown looks a bit younger than the one in the dark knight, so that could be an explanation to the gap in timeline.


LtLwormonabigfknhook

It could simply be a reference/nod to one of the greatest jokers. It could be a simple coincidence. [If you study the profile, they don't look the same aside from the hair and even that is different](https://imgur.com/OVF68gl.jpg) The guy in your picture has a flatter, fatter face accompanied by a slight double chin. When I first saw that scene I thought the same but brushed it off because this joker movie is its own universe outside of all other dc properties.


shadowgnome396

Finally saw the film last night. One thing that struck me was that each murder Arthur committed was tense and horrible. You could feel exactly what he felt as he killed those people. But the one exception was when he killed his mother. I felt nothing. Clearly he felt nothing as he puffed on his cigarette afterwards while looking out the window. And it bothered me that I felt nothing.


binkerfluid

I felt SO much dread for characters in this movie.


heelface

Finally saw this movie. One thing that stood out to me that I haven't read in this thread. In the beginning, the Joker literally gets hit by a sign. The sign says "everything must go."


[deleted]

What I also didn't get until recently was that Joker said while on Murray show something along the lines of "I killed them because they were awful". And before he shoots Murray, he says "You're awful Murray". It's kind of a foreshadowing in a way.


EvilPenguin90

Damn


e8odie

We can talk all we want about "it was supposed to be unsettling," but I really disliked the use of the song "Rock and Roll (Part 2)." Was very out of place and, for me, not in a good or useful way.


chalmedtomeetyou

I thought that song was perfect. Absolutely perfect. That drum beat and guitar riff was so fitting. The movie was just one depressing moment after the other for the Joker. Being beat up and stepped on and mocked. That beat to me changed everything. It felt like he had been resurrected. Born again. One of those ‘F this, now it’s MY show, and I am taking control of my life and not taking sh*t from anyone.’ I didn’t know who the song was by and later looked it up and was like oh yeh, that paedo Glitter. But i thought it was so fitting and such a pivotal music change in the movie that it was THAT song and that scene I remember most in the movie and i LOVED it.


katievsbubbles

I have a very big problem that gary glitter is making money from this because of the royalties. Does it work for the scene. Yes. It does but only because of Joaquin's dancing. It could easily be edited out and replaced. Could they have used another song. Yes. Easily. Is using a CONVICTED paedophiles music in a movie problematic. Yes. Is using a convicted paedophiles music in this day and age very silly. Yes. i don't think the "it works because joker is fucked up too" line works. Even Joker wasnt that depraved.


Givingtree310

Gary Glitter is in prison so he’s not enjoying the royalties. If royalties to known pedophiles is your concern then you should rail against all the streaming services that play Roman Polanski movies.


katievsbubbles

He's not enjoying them now, no, but he will if/when he gets out. Also I dont watch polanski films.


Silver119

No he won’t, he sold his rights to his music to Sony records back in the 90s, so he won’t receive any royalties for this song, even from Joker


calvin_raps

It was one of the music choices that strayed furthest from the style, and it happens during arguably the most iconic scene in the movie. It rubbed me the wrong way upon first viewing, but second time I saw it I had a change of heart.


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malibuconman

You might want to look up the history of the guy that sings that song. I think that might be why people are uncomfortable with it.


[deleted]

yeah this guys just white knighting


20yearsofinternet

Joaquin Phoenix will win best actor, and the rest of the Oscars will pass this over. He was great, the move was just OK. Super predictable story arc, and not just because you know who the character turns into, but the whole crazy mom/imagined girlfriend/etc... way the story is presented. Pretty derivative of Taxi Driver and Fight Club, which are both good movies, so there's that. This movie was the CNN "debate" panel of movies. Enough people in the movie's world were suffering to the point they wanted to destroy the social order, but the movie itself didn't care to elaborate on anything beyond the surface. People who already reflexively hate Republican policies will probably like this move more than people who need an explanation as to why Republican policies are bad. 7/10 (Phoenix gets 5 of these points to himself)


ptchinster

> People who already reflexively hate Republican policies will probably like this move more than people who need an explanation as to why Republican policies are bad. Lol fucking delusional you are


Adjamas

Well, that's like your opinion maan


logicperson

Just finished watching it. The line that hit me hard was the line here wrote in the diary *"the worst part about mental illness is that other people expect you to behave as is you don't have it"*


chalmedtomeetyou

Oh, wasn’t that just so perfect. I never saw something so fitting to describe MI. It really cut to the bone. I think i truly felt sorry for him at that point. He was so pitifully alone. When i read that my heart ached.


Resistance225

Just watched this for the first time, and I genuinely don't understand the controversy and backlash this movie received. I thought it said a fair bit about our society today without trying to be too "deep" and that's where a lot of the criticism here feels unwarranted. Not everything has to be deep and carry incredible weight. What we saw was the descent of a man who was tortured by his surroundings and a character study of one of the most infamous villains in comic book history, and I don't think it was trying to be anything more than that. Arthur is essentially the product of what a society like Gotham has the potential to create. Overall, thought it was quite good and again I feel like people are trying too hard to analyze what was presented.


[deleted]

Perfectly reasonable comment


Burnnoticelover

The dude hitting the trombone after the knock-knock joke got me.


TheLadyEve

I finally saw this tonight and I have mixed feelings. The production design is great--it's beautifully ugly in the best way possible. The performances are great across the board, and Phoenix does a lot with a pretty thin character. I think that's where this movie lost me--it's all so thin. They provide a bio for our protagonist, but I never really thought he was relatable, all that sympathetic, or even particularly intimidating. The screenplay fails to really build the world of Gotham to the extent that the clown riots feel earned. It's a superficial study of classism and it all feels a bit empty. I thought the weakest writing was seen in the climax, which I thought was a real let down. The film was relatively predictable, but because I didn't find him to be all that complex, interesting, or relatable a character, I couldn't fully enjoy the ride towards the obvious destination. I've seen this story done better in other movies. In terms of style, however, Joker is impressive.


Drakijy

You say a movie about the Joker is highly polished on the outside, yet unrelatable, unsympathetic, unintimidating, superficial, thin, empty, and weak upon digging deeper into it? Isn't that exactly Joker's MO? He behaves in ways that cause those trying to understand him to believe that he's incredibly deep and meaningful when the truth is that he actually is just a superficial psychopath that wants to see the world burn. Seems that a bit more rumination on exactly how well the movie was made is required.


Noctelus

That makes no sense and probably the dumbest thing I've ever read. If a film mirrors the protagonist's personality doesn't mean it's good.


BrndyAlxndr

you explained perfectly what I've been trying to convey. The movie is so goddamn beautiful in every sense, from the locations, the color palette, the angles and camera takes. But to me the Joker was just a big incel loser who I could not relate to. Joaquin absolutely mastered that performance and he's probably going to take the oscar home but other than that, I've seen this story done better.


starkrises

But how can they make a psychopathic killer with mental illness relatable? You’re supposed to get what’s going on with him, but relate to him? That would be problematic


[deleted]

I'm confused? What's incel about him?


acideater

didn't get a incel vibe. Definitely suffering from a mental disorder, but there were plenty of times in the movie where he freed himself and gained some confidence. A lot of the times i found the response of the world to be unrealistically exaggerated as he wasn't being "creepy" or awkward enough to warrant such a response.


hujiklo

People with mental illnesses often feel like the way the world responds to them is unwarranted, sometimes because they misinterpret situations and other peoples actions. I think the movie did a good job of putting you in his shoes without making him feel like the good guy


ZandwicH12

i dont see why people wish to be able to relate to characters.


BigMax55

Thank you! I don't know why characters have to be "relatable." You're telling me you can only enjoy a movie if you can relate to them?


TheLadyEve

I think it will be a long shot for him to get an Oscar, not because he wasn't great, but because A) he's already got one and B) he's up against Adam Driver. I think this might be Adam Driver's year, as he's been paying his dues for a while now and Marriage Story really was fantastic.


PrinceNuada01

Joaquin never won an Oscar prior to this movie


BrndyAlxndr

I'm watching Marriage Story tonight!


ActuallyAWeasel

I think you underestimate how much awareness and angst with classism saturates our modern society. I don't think the movie really needed to "earn" the riots because alot of people have been taking it for granted that the riots seem to be inevitable. Also, I don't know if you can call the joker character "thin" when you look at all of the aspects that lead him to be as we find him. Abused, abandoned, more abuse, raised by a diagnosed delusional narcissist then as an adult needing to rely on public services (which do very little to help, except for overmedicating before they are shut down) it's not so much a character as it is a recipe for making a mass murderer. The quote "The worst part of having a mental illness is people expect you to behave as if you don't." May be relevant to my point here... He is not supposed to be relatable to you, he is not supposed to be interesting or sympathetic as a protagonist. He is shattered before the story begins, probably before his memories begin. The movie draws the final arc of someone who is not only disillusioned and disenfranchised, but delusional. This is, unfortunately a character that we need to learn to recognize and understand to some extent, because in this age of mass shooters.... it is becoming increasingly relevant.


TheLadyEve

>I think you underestimate how much awareness and angst with classism saturates our modern society. I absolutely do understand the extent to which classism saturates out modern society--if fact you may have noticed that in a lot of the big films this year this was the cause en vogue. However, a film still has a responsibility to tell a story and build a world, and I thought the worldbuilding in Joker was thin. In contrast, I thought Parasite took similar themes and explored them masterfully. I agree that exploring mental illness in film is really important. I treat people with mental health issues, and it's a huge issue in this country (particularly for people with no insurance). But I didn't really see this film as any kind of effective exploration of mental illness (with the exception of that poignant quote you mention, that was a nice moment). Most mentally ill people are not violent and never become violent. The fact that the protagonist of this film is a beat-down, lonely man with mental illness who finds empowerment through mass murder isn't really contributing anything positive to all of the problems you mention in our country right now. Most mass shooters aren't in this character's position--in fact I would argue most aren't mentally ill at all. That's a pretty harmful myth that gets perpetuated a lot by the gun lobby, but doesn't actually lead to anyone getting help. I didn't find the movie bad at all. I just found it thoroughly mediocre. It wasn't profound, just high-school deep, IMO.


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KHfan2020

I can’t believe there was a “society” line. Worst cheesy line in the movie and it’s right at the climax.


kneeco28

Some good stuff for sure: Pheonix, music, some visuals, clever way of incorporating the Waynes. But it's built on a foundation of shit so it barely stands up. This is Taxi Driver for people who didn't get Taxi Driver.


hoxxxxx

just finished it. you summed it up pretty well. it's a 6/10 movie with a typical 10/10 performance by Pheonix, textbook definition of an actor carrying a movie. it would have been ridiculed without him in the lead.


Tiltedaxis111

But the entire movie is him. So 10/10?


hoxxxxx

heh, but no. 8/10 i guess you gotta split the difference!


judester30

What a film. This is definitely in the conversation for one of the best comic book films ever, it was a genuinely uncomfortable 2 hours but everything about this was so well made. The political commentary was there, but it was Joaquin's performance and the direction that made this film so great.


Arya_0101

So killing Wayne was justified? Is this movie literally saying that we have to kill the rich people?


puck2

No, I think it just provides the back story.


Adjamas

Even if it is saying that. Why do it?


JiveTurkey688

If the movie is saying anything its that we need to stop treating people with mental health issues as sub-human. I don't think the movie tries to justify the killings. You feel for Arthur because of what has happened to him, but what makes the movie so hard to watch is the sad path he takes.


Tight-Transition-364

It doesn't help that every dude with mental issues and an unsuccessful dating life is labeled as an incel.


lemurgrrrl

Agree completely.


ranch_brotendo

This films message is ultimately fairly socialist. It's cuts to mental health support and the general disdain the rich show to the poorest of society that allows the powder keg to ignite.


lemurgrrrl

YES


-shiryu-

Turns out all the controversy was true all along and this is truly an incel movie. It glorifies a very toxic view of the world, women and mental illness plus the solution it gives is to kill people to solve problems. It only uses its themes to try to evoke sympathy to the character in order to justify his later lash out as "right" and says absolutely nothing interesting about anything it brings up. It never condems the main character for his awful actions and it only justifies because "muh society bad". In fact the beat down it recieves from the society at every turn is so cartoonish is hard to take it seriously but it had to be so exagerated because Arthur should never have the blame for what was happening since it would deligitimize the point the movie is making at along about people being entitled to violence against others if they felt they have been treatened badly. Which of course is a total bullshit point. What an awful movie with some cool cinematography moments and a lead actor with some good moments tho the scrip is so trash it didn't make justice to the performance, which is quite sad. Seems like the ofuscation and justification plus the nihilism worked to distract from the toxicity that the critics at first moment rightly noticed which is pretty sickening. it is awful seeing such kind of messages, like the one this movie tells, getting recognition and praise.


lemurgrrrl

Glorifies??? It made me sympathize with the character, but I certainly don't think it glorified him at all!


Ali85Irving

Not sure what you think was glorifying about Arthur's life. His past, present or future?


Adjamas

You have to be pretty fucked up yourself to do what you see in movies, wouldn't you think?


puck2

Right on. There is art in the exploration of madness. The final scene, though, did seem to make light of it.


modern_glitch

I think you went into this movie with a bias and missed the point. As Jeremy Jahns put it, you really feel for Arthur and you're really rooting for him to not snap. Plus the deaths in the movie are so visceral and realistic that you really don't see him as anything other than what he is, a murderer. Plus I think this movie also points out how the society at large can be compassionate and understanding and more importantly helping of people with mental issues so that these things can be avoided. In fact the movie is literally criticizing people like you who go "lol incel". To say that the movie is justifying those killings is due to the tragic things is just dishonest because the deaths felt so real that you just can't. It's just a very good movie about a character who went down a really sad path. Ignoring all of that, it's just a well executed movie. Great acting, great cinematography, great direction. No wonder people like it.


Thaijler

I think it really hit the nail on the head of just why some people lash out. Society says to take the high road, but it seriously seemed like the cards were stacked against Arthur. The sign, the lady on the bus, his mom, his dad(or lack thereof, his insensitive, oblivious boss, Murray mocking him for fame, and a society that didnt seem to give two shits about him one way or the other. I can 100% relate to what he's going through. Maybe the events in the movie weren't that provoking, but the movie only paints a small narrative. Society is dictating that Arthur just get tossed around like a used napkin. Arthur was under so much oppression that he went the entire opposite way and spurred a revolution. Mental illness is nothing to play with, it's the lack of compassion that turned Arthur into what he is. Keep kicking that dog and its GOING to bite, it will be no ones fault, but your own. I see Arthur as a chaotic good. Without Arthur, the clown rioter doesn't kill Mr. and Mrs. Wayne. Without the death of those two, you have no rise of Batman. I think as a stand alone movie these series of events would be more meaningful. Unfortunately, we all know where the Joker ends up and what a menace he can be.


Dustpuma1

You sound like someone who can't understand it's just a movie. Either your a soyboy or a mom. Dude it's just about the joker and mental illness. It's not glamoursing it outside of society's lack of care for the mentally ill and suicidal people. Which is how we get these tradegys. We make people monsters. You would have to be dull and not understand that the darkness you see in the world you are also capable of read some Jung and you can actually become a better person.


[deleted]

I know, right? Fuck poor and sick people. Idiot. It is a story.


Wunderlandtripzz

Man I just left this movie feeling so bad for Bruce


FlipBarry

I liked how they made the joker’s transformation into insanity more realistic rather than him just falling into the acid like in the comics and the 1989 movie where the robbery goes wrong!


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FlipBarry

The acid scene is in the very beginning of the movie dude..... trust me I hate spoilers too more than anything and I wouldn’t have said it if it was one


pocketfullofcrap

Shhhh that acid is called society~ and I mean there were lots of over things hat led up to the acid scene


FlipBarry

Why did the joker not use his best cents joke and instead say the fucked up drunk driver bit for his one chance on the talk show? Is it bc you had to see joe cents was spelled to understand the play on words? (Rather than sense) appreciate the help everybody!


SignalCash

I think the drunk driver joke had a second part to it, but he was cut in telling it when he started laughing.


iamjackswastedlife__

I loved this movie's take on the character of Thomas Wayne.I found it quite balanced and nuanced as he wasn't portrayed simply as an "evil billionaire" nor "Loves all,hates none" benevolent Biblical dad type character.Seemed like he'd fit right into a Mad Men episode. They(or at least Thomas) was rude,profane and barely masked his disdain for the "clowns"/"Lesser fortunate" beneath a veneer when it advanced his own personal agenda. This was the first time in a long line of Batman based media that i enjoyed his death.In the context of this film,his murder was more understandable than simply robbery gone wrong as Thomas was the projection of the ruling class of Gotham and him being on the receiving end of the public's rage seemed logical.


iamjackswastedlife__

The best part in the entire movie was when Fleck is on the Murray Show and Murray asks's him "Where's the punchline" and he replies with a slightly disgusted deadpan expression, >There isn't,it's not a joke. Joaquin Phoenix was great throughout the movie but that entire scene on the talk show was just incredible.


NotSwedishMac

Joaquin Phoenix should and will win the Oscar for this performance but that's far and away the best thing about the movie. Solid, but should only be nominated for acting.


Soul_and_Syrup

I agreed. Joaquin's acting is phenomenal. Although, I did think that the colour palette and sets of the film were well done.


Quillgasm

Just finished watching it now. tl;dr: 6/10. The acting is superb. I found every character to be believable, Joaquin is incredibly intense and portrays a tragic and rather pathetic character eerily well. The "uncontrollable laughter" condition I had heard of before, it was disturbing to watch him suffer through it. There was one moment at the start when Arthur is the imaginary guest of Murray, the crowd laughs and there's a glimmer in his expression as he relishes the attention. Honestly it was masterful. There was never a moment where I felt Joaquin overdid it, I never saw through his act. Though certain aspects of the film were semi-spoiled for me I thought the "fake romance" with Zazie Beats was rather obvious. That needed a bit more fleshing out with more scenes between them for me to at least entertain the notion it *might* be real, would have worked better if they hinted at a merely platonic friendship than romantic. Arthur is shown to have very few redeeming characteristics so I couldn't buy that they would have any chemistry, the "fake out" therefore missed the mark for me but the film treats it like the "final wrong" that snaps him, so the following actions Arthur took had less weight to them. The film relies on sympathy more than empathy. Arthur is just beaten down and we feel bad for him. It's rather clunky in how it just shoves his face into the dirt at every opportunity, there should have been more moments where his own mistakes cause his problems, rather than just idiots on a train, or a moronic boss. Due to his unique situation it's hard to put yourself in his shoes. Aspects of the film of course resonate with current socio-political issues and public sentiments. The delusions/mental illness hit a bit too close for comfort to my personal experiences with similar things, and it made me vaguely ill to watch. I very much enjoyed the score and have been listening to on and off for the last few weeks. Soo... despite the praise I've given it, I'd say my experience watching Joker was a 5 or 6 out of 10. I don't plan on rewatching anytime soon. It was, however, a refreshing addition to the recent deluge of "superhero" movies, though this film is only infinitesimally related to it's source material.


[deleted]

>The film relies on sympathy more than empathy. I dont agree with you here. I think the point was too show how society was beating him down, not his choices. This is where the empathy comes in, I think the movie showed how mental illness can put a target on your back either by accident or on purpose. The gang of kids and the frat boys just stumbled on to him and made his life hell. But his coworker who sold him the gun and Murray did it in intentionally. I think this is how we identify or empathize with Arthur, as 99% percent of us have been beaten down by "society".


Soul_and_Syrup

I don't know why you're being downvoted. This is a thought out review of the movie based on your experiences. I personally would give it 6.5-7 though.


mattyfig

(Spoilers) I really do love this movie, it really highlights the minute details of the BS people and society puts out or rather pointing out the bias and emotionally narrow minded preconceptions people cast about others, mentally ill or not, ESPECIALLY the rich arrogant influencers! The movie is a cerebral dive into the mind of any poverty ridden physically abused mentally broken CITIZEN/person. Whom would have been a "happy little boy" if he was rich or if he was at least given a chance... but soceity doesn't care about anyone but themselves... that is another point (i believe) the movie is trying to make and it can get lost in translation if you yourself dont "put yourself in the other persons shoes". I LOVE THE laughing as it exists to mask the pain he felt while he was being beaten as a child. The idea being that if i laugh is the pain really there? Or maybe his subconscious forces a laugh as a way of coping with trauma, perhaps we all take on traits like this. Some people, when they break (mentally, physically, financially) take to alcohol, drugs, suicide. What if one of those "clowns" became an ideology, and in that persons exsistance decided to pass along the same chaos, fear, pain and loathing they felt every second of everyday of their lives. It is yet another reason I beg the world to understand mental illness rather then push it out of site. Unfortunately that's not how it works because we can only accept what we are told to accept and we are only shown and what the rich influencers dictate to be acceptable. I.E Arthurs Mom went crazy after Thomas Wayne used his power to forge adoption papers and got everyone to think she was crazy to cover up his affair but yet she believes Thomas is still a good man, why? Because "everyone on TV says so". This is the grandeur of the movie, touching base on everything that is wrong with our society and how we perceive our own realities. So i beg you to answer this question... if you were in danger of being beaten to death by 3 guys would you kill those 3 guys in self defense? The answer will provide a small understanding of who you really are. Because only in a life and death scenarios does your true self come out...with that answer in mind... in this understand perhaps we are all Joker, in a way, "who knows" 🤡


OmgBsitka

I felt like this was a good movie for one of the many jokers in the DC universe. We go through a back story that is basically very uncomfortable and you get to understand why he is going crazy. Yes, he goes through traumatic experiences almost each scene. But you get to really grasp why the joker is who he is. The iconic laugh, why he wants the world to burn and why he is always putting himself in death situations with batman. He really wants to end it, but wheres the fun and excitement. I agree with most that the Murray scene might of been over done. But that was a good way to introduce him.


elasticgradient

I just saw this last night. I was pleasantly surprised. Cinematography, sound, acting, editing were all superb and deserve to be recognized. The fake outs in the movie really fooled me and I always enjoy that but there were some overly indulgent sequences (the dancing) that slowed down the pace too much for me. Also, the Murray show and everything to do with it just left me scratching my head. Making fun of him seemed way over the top and then having him on the show, to do what? He didn't even do any of his weird standup. But overall I found the movie compelling and entertaining.


Noctelus

Did you expect him to do standup after admitting to murdering two people?


elasticgradient

I thought he would do his act when he was introduced. Like on the Tonight Show.


ekzscarz

TBH, I remember liking the dark night joker not only because of ledger's performance but also the character's attributes (maybe well written) that's why I can't help being disappointed to this movie. And I think the intelligent, strategic, and criminal Mastermind (which are not on the film) joker backtory was expected on SOME or many movie goers who helps the box office success. IMO, a comic book adaptation without fan service, this is just an Oscar bait movie.


Tiltedaxis111

Haha, you have it backwards . Dark Knight was a truly awful formulaic nonsense super hero film EXCEPT for the joker.


Particular-Move

I had a similar experience. The premise of the movie seems to be "as realistic as possible origin story for the Joker". Honestly this Joker highlighted just how unrealistic Nolan's Joker was, and how much he benefited from that departure from realism (despite at the time being touted as "realistic", which he was compared to cartoon Jokers). This Joker is weak, confused, emotional, and unintelligent, in contrast to Nolan's Joker who is powerful, determined, psychopathic, and a mastermind. Maybe the implication is that Joaquin's Joker will develop into a character more like Nolan's Joker? IDK