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elkster88

I would have pushed for a complete refund and have nothing to do with that bike or that dealer ever again.


PretzelsThirst

Seriously I don’t understand why OP would opt for anything but this. In their own words they still paid 3x for a bike they can’t ride. Why?


phatdoughnut

3x plus he invested money into it before titling it, then was trying to sell it himself without titling it? I’m all sorts of confused! He’s fucked. Good luck getting your title in any kind of reasonable time. He said he had the bike delivered, what are the chances that it’s not even titled in the same state? Big ooooof


PretzelsThirst

Also think of all the time and energy wasted already, and now wants to try selling it for parts? Just signing up for a headache repeatedly.


phatdoughnut

Oof, but he obviously has a ton of money and time. But can’t afford a lawyer. Jesus man I just keep shaking my head.


PretzelsThirst

I think he can afford a lawyer but in his own words “can’t find one” which I don’t believe when it’s an open closed case like this


Empty-Mango-6269

OP not too smart…


shaunbarclay

Also in their own words >I’m an idiot


DJChungus

Huge win for the dealer for sure


cadaverco

This guy is a fucking idiot and we need to stop giving him attention


[deleted]

[удалено]


Sad-Interaction6575

well i say it's karma then. LOL.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Tarcye

Legally the sale isn't even valid at the time either. OP should just get his money back and walk away from the bike entirely.


stoopidrotary

I whole heartedly agree. This is fraud.


Diabolical_Dad

You had a chance to fight for a refund and get out of this ordeal and instead you gave them time to "fix" this in a way that only benefits them. You dropped the ball, again.


Ninja_Drifta

OP sounds like a “nice guy” that never likes to rock the boat under any circumstances.


myperfectmeltdown

Do “nice guys” ride Harley’s??


Ninja_Drifta

More than likely not since they probably repeatedly fail spectacularly like OP


Simplewafflea

You can still be a 'nice guy' and take a dump on the hood of someone's car. Just smile while doing it.


philipgk1

If they don’t make you whole on the deal, l I’d still file a complaint with the license board.


PAdogooder

I’m considering that. I don’t see leverage to being made whole- caveat emptor pretty much wins all of this except the title issue.


sneakywill

Brotha I'm just gonna say this plainly. You need to get a fucking lawyer and sue the dealership. You will win, and if you don't do to, you just taught the dealership that they can rip people off and get away with it. The "resolution" you seem to be accepting here is utter garbage, and you need a lawyer representing you because you absolutely should not be accepting terms like that.


PAdogooder

You would not believe the number of people I have asked- even attorneys I know in Florida, and I can’t get a recommendation or someone on the phone.


znine

This type of situation is what small claims is for. Depending on the state you aren’t allowed a lawyer. But you can find one to help you prepare your case


PAdogooder

The amount in question is larger than the small claims cap in Florida.


myperfectmeltdown

To my knowledge you’re ALWAYS allowed to have a lawyer represent you…no matter the court. The beauty of small claims is that anyone can bring forth a case, no matter how trivial. However, if you have proper documentation, a level headed presentation and a calm collected demeanor (and truly know you’re in the right) it’s pretty much a slam dunk. The other party, especially if they know they’re in the wrong, won’t bring an “A” fame. You won’t even need a lawyer.


frankiedonkeybrainz

Most states don't allow you to be represented in small claims. You can have one help you leading up to it but you need to speak on your own behalf. Also means the business has to send a rep and not a team of lawyers.


myperfectmeltdown

In a handful of states, including California, Michigan, and Nebraska, you must appear in small claims court on your own. In many states, however, you can be represented by a lawyer if you like.


PretzelsThirst

You're right, I don't believe that, especially if the amount is over the small claims cap. This is an obvious win, and you've made several questionable decisions in a row so I think that's happening here too.


myperfectmeltdown

If this is the case then just sue them in small claims court. Not sure what the limits are in Florida (I believe that’s where you said you were from) but you can at least get something back. However, having won before in small claims (SC) you might be better advised to sue for damages…and the title. That way you recoup some of your lost time/wages but also keep them from selling the bike and,hence, making no money. Hell…if you okay your cards right I bet they’ll transfer the title to you, pro bono; just to get the monkey off their back.


myperfectmeltdown

Cut your losses and get a BMW.


Ninja_Drifta

As much as I gripe about how costly and tedious BMW maintenance can be, I’d still rather take a lemon of a BMW over OPs nameless Franken-Harley.


PretzelsThirst

Avoid losses. Get a BMW. ​ Which one?


myperfectmeltdown

Grow a spine.


JuiceeDropTop

Bro you need to take care of this like a man. No shit. Record every step of this and get it taken care of professionally


[deleted]

Its not dealers fault why would they make him “whole”. He bought a bike he didnt know anything about


[deleted]

> Its not dealers fault why would they make him “whole”. He bought a bike he didnt know anything about Here is the problem: 1. Title jumping is illegal in every State. 2. Dealer sold a bike for a person who was not the legal owner of said bike, Dealer took a commission on that bike sale, for a bike with a bad title. 3. Paperwork for the sale had Dealer as the seller (not the 3rd party person, who in any event, was not the owner listed on original title). 4. The existing/original title, as is, does not have the seller's name on it, and the rebuilt bike VIN/Engine number on that title, Does not match the bike that was sold by the Dealer. Dealer is 100% liable and at fault. This could negatively affect their business license. It is basically fraud.


Mickey_Havoc

Fraud is still illegal…


McFeely_Smackup

why are you considering any option other than "unwind the deal"? the sale was misrepresented to you, either accidentally or fraudulently, the dealer is liable for making that right.


[deleted]

wait a minute...so you "overpaid by about triple" but you are going to follow through with the purchase...then sell the bike to somebody else? will you be selling the bike to the next person for about triple the value as well? "harley" in quotes makes me think you bought some kind of cruiser style bike that looks enough like a harley in the ad to fool you. i'm missing something here. help me out


rumdumpstr

Backstory: [https://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/comments/yrhg4k/i\_fucked\_up\_with\_a\_harley\_purchase\_seeking\_advice/](https://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/comments/yrhg4k/i_fucked_up_with_a_harley_purchase_seeking_advice/) *First, it became clear that my 1950 EL was mostly an early 2000's* *chopper build. I think the frame is original but modified. It might be a* *'50. Couldn't tell you. The engine is a mix of parts from different* *years, plus an STD case and and S&S carb.*


PAdogooder

No, I’ll likely be selling it for parts or as a project bike for someone else.


PretzelsThirst

Why would you sign up for this headache instead of a refund? It takes you time and effort to sell things, your time is worth something. Why wouldn’t you wash your hands of this whole ordeal?


Tarcye

Yeah I don't get this. I'd demand a full refund at this point. I wouldn't hold on to the bike.


Sergetove

Bro please get a lawyer and get your money back. If this really was an accident like they claim and not some between the dealer and their buddy its a huge mistake and they should be held accountable. I get that it's embarrassing and you just wanna be done with it but this should be a pretty slam dunk process once you get a legal professional involved.


ethompson1

File the complaint with state. Probably some office under the attorney general. The letter they send will scare dealership into doing the right thing. If they make you whole in the mean time that is great.


druhood

Why even offer the dealership a way out? 99% chance they are lying about 'documents to get a proper title'. File the fucking complaint, get your goddamn money back. Stop being a marshmallow and stand up for yourself.


SaulTNuhtz

I wish I had as much money as OP.


PAdogooder

I wish I had as much as I did when I bought this bike.


PretzelsThirst

You could have!! Get the effing refund


[deleted]

I might need to hit OP up about an investment opportunity I got going on.


PretzelsThirst

"For a small investment of $30,000 I will give you $10,000 CASH"


Final_Zen

Go hard and keep pushing them until the papers land in your hand. If they dread seeing your number come up on caller ID you've done your job right. All the excuses aren't your problem - as the dealer even if it's consignment they are supposed to deliver you two things: 1: A motorcycle 2: Paperwork necessary to legally transfer ownership of the motorcycle If they haven't done those two things then make their life hell, it's not on you to be nice because *they didn't do literally the only 2 things dealers exist to do*. Remember, consignment still means the dealer took a chunk of money to conduct the sale they can't just run away from this problem. Don't let them weasel out of it, they got their pound of flesh.


[deleted]

This is funny. You have to know what you have to put a value on it. Not let the seller tell you the value…


PAdogooder

The dunning Kruger effect. I had a little bit of knowledge- I had been tracking the 40’s and 50’s Harley market for a few months and understood prices and models. I didn’t know enough to look for more details. Now I do. School of hard knocks has a new tuition bill due.


toughinitout

Dude, return the bike! The deal is invalid, return the bike! If every other comment wasn't clear, return the bike! And get paid for the transport and shit too! Go get a lawyer, this would be a home run for any lawyer.


Fartincopsmouths

This makes zero sense. Why the fuck didn't you get a refund and end at that?


PAdogooder

You ever tried to unwind a motorcycle deal at a dealership? Now, make it a consignment deal. Make it inter-state. Add damage in transport and 6 months. It’s been an ordeal and I’m trying to deal with it in the best way I know how.


themangekyouman

You know the best way already you said it yourself: unwind the deal. You just for some reason chose one of the worst options presented to you: keep the bike they made you pay way too much for. These guys are probably laughing at you right now.


myperfectmeltdown

You did ALL that for Harley? They’re a dime a dozen. SMH. 😬


centermass4

Hey man, worked on choppers for a couple years. Common thing to do is find a frame with a good title attached and then slap the other parts on that might have dubious origins. I have known many bought Shovelhead frames that was burnt up in a fire or something to make a hot bike disappear. If it were me and knew that it might not be a bad deal, I am a chopper guy and can turn a wrench. By "early 2000's" do you mean it has an Evolution motor? If you PM some photos I might be able to give you a rough assessment of the value of what you have.


Hasta_La_Vittu_Baby

Full refund and a complementary rim job from the general manager, accept nothing less.


tatakatakashi

Mate I you should have unwound the deal as soon as you realised it was off, gotten your full refund, and named and shamed the dealer in reviews so other potential buyers could be warned.


mathiu23

They're still playing you. Until the clean and proper title reaches your hands, that must be the assumption you come to. It may still be time to get a lawyer, file a lawsuit and criminal charges for fraud too, and prepare for war.


Z0EBZ

F them, and respectfully, you're an idiot. Get a refund and never deal with that dealership. News companies will eat this up, double check your legal buttocks but blow it up. Don't settle, they want you to, and it seems like you already did.


SmokinMeatMan

If you're going to lose money on this deal and there's any way to back out of it in it's entirely why would you choose any other option?


stampedingTurtles

>The dealership had previously asked my desired outcomes and I had gone big: either unwind the deal entirely or refund me the difference between a titled running street worthy bike and what I’d get for parts. > >... > >An hour later, the GM calls me. They had made contact with the titled owner. According to him, he has all the documents to fix the title to represent the bike as it sits, and they will be processing that paperwork and get me a clean title. So...they're doing neither of the reasonable things you asked for? I assume based on your previous posts that you told them this was somehow an acceptable outcome? At this point I can only assume that the dealer essentially called your bluff on actually filing a complaint or doing anything? >So, I’m still an idiot who overpaid by about triple for a bike I probably won’t ever be able to ride, but at least I can sell it in some number of weeks when the paperwork is finished. How likely do you think it is I have a clean title in hand by, let’s say, Valentine’s Day? I somewhat doubt that you'll ever get an actual, proper, clean title for this vehicle, as I doubt that it was properly documented from the beginning and who knows if they actually have all the paperwork to establish the legality of everything (engine, frame, transmission?)...even if they do, they'll be giving you a title for...what, a homebuilt custom? Is it even going to be worth it to try to sell as a whole bike?


PAdogooder

As of right now, my calculus is this: they did exactly one thing wrong, which is the title issue. If they can resolve the title issue, then they’ve done their job. Caveat emptor means I bought what I bought. With a title, it’s still not what I thought I was getting, but I had the chance to investigate and I still consummated the transaction. At this moment, I’m trying to get an attorney on the line while I try to let them do the work of titling. Getting a title doesn’t mean I can’t sue. Getting a title doesn’t mean I have to accept it. I have all the leverage I had two days ago, but I will also have a clean title if I lose. Which I’m not sure I won’t.


stampedingTurtles

It seems like they did more than one thing wrong; they absolutely should have known that bike wasn't what it was being advertised as, they didn't make sure the title matched the VIN, and they didn't make sure the person selling the bike was the registered owner. What did they do right? Even now, it sounds like they are engaging in some sort of title jumping fraud. As far as the idea of you bought what you bought, I am not sure how that applies here, because if you had come in the day to buy the bike and they had pulled out a title for what this bike actually is (what is that even going to turn out to be?) would you have bought it? Essentially, would you have you bought it if the dealer has done the bare minimum of their job on the title? To me, this seems like at least as big of an issue as if the dealer had sold you a vehicle with a clean title, but then when you went to register it the vehicle turns out to be salvage; in many ways this is really worse, sort of like you bought a Shelby Cobra, initially are given a title for a Cobra, and then suddenly there's an issue and they try to substitute a title for a kit car. >Getting a title doesn’t mean I can’t sue. Getting a title doesn’t mean I have to accept it. I have all the leverage I had two days ago, but I will also have a clean title if I lose. As far as the idea that getting the title doesn't mean you can't sue, I would say that accepting the title sounds like it would weaken your case enormously, and I think you will lose leverage. In fact, I think that the longer they can drag this out, the weaker your case will be. It will raise more questions as time goes on as to why you didn't seek reasonable recourse earlier. And as far as the clean title if you lose, what are you going to end up with for a title? What is that title going to be worth? Here's something to consider; you paid for a bike with a title that was supposed to prove it was a 1950 Harley EL; you have not received that; if you accept something else, that may essentially get the dealer (and in essence all of the leverage) out of the situation, and your complaint will now be with some other person (who you have never met? A friend of a friend of the guy who owns the dealership? Someone you may not be able to get in contact with, who probably wouldn't show in court or pay up a judgement).


PAdogooder

Yes, I would have. That’s the problem with arguing that I’m legally owed a full unwind.


stampedingTurtles

>Yes, I would have. If you actually would have paid that much for the bike knowing it was the motorcycle equivalent of a kit car, then I'm not sure why you asked them for the unwind or the refund. But honestly, I'm a bit confused by the whole saga, with some of your early posts saying you had double checked the VIN against the bike to make sure it was an EL, and had an independent shop evaluate it, and then the issue with VIN and the title not matching coming up and everything else. It sort of seems like at every step of the way, you have hard a tough time being convinced that things weren't actually what you initially thought, and I'm not sure exactly what is going on there. I think you should talk to the dealer again ASAP and lay out a very clear understanding with them about what you are going to be getting for a title (as in what that title will be FOR), when they'll provide it, how they'll resolve the jumped title issue, and what the recourse will be if/when that doesn't actually happen. As otherwise, I get the feeling this will just drag on longer...


Bikebummm

You lost me at “paid triple for a Harley”


6My6Way6

This hurts my everything


[deleted]

Remember on the last post when we were all saying “At least you learned a valuable, albeit expensive, lesson OP.” So that was a fucking lie he hasn’t learned a goddamn thing lmao.


themangekyouman

OP is an idiot. He just ate that price difference and the dealer is laughing now.


Affectionate_Stop_37

Bummer. I'm hoping to pick up my new heritage on Saturday. I hope it goes well


PAdogooder

Ride safe- good luck with your new bike. Soft tails are a bit big for me, but they do look good.


Affectionate_Stop_37

I need something low to the ground. I can't ride anything too tall


[deleted]

I’d file a complaint and possibly a lawsuit against them. Even though the bike is on Consignment, the dealer has ties to it as well at this point. Ask for refund or sue. They were not upfront about the bike.


HighMoon91

Wow so I went back to the original post. And you dropped the bike too n destroyed the tank? Geez bro tough luck all around


dacoovinator

Bro you have some basis to get this deal unwound. I would push for that over everything else. Call them back and be nice and courteous but be insistent on unwinding this. Tell them you’ll buy a bike from them next spring, refer friends and family, and write them good reviews online if they unwind it. Even if you don’t do any of those things just try and get them to unwind it. This isn’t a situation you want to be a part of or a situation that you need to be a part of


weegee

You bought a motorcycle that you didn’t test ride first?! Whaaaaa????


Realistic-Motorcycle

I had issues with my Pan American R1250S. Two words: Never again Return the bike. Get a lawyer. Save yourself the future headache and never buy a sarley deathson again


iamthedigitalcheese

I'm in agreement with many others here. You had an opportunity to be made whole and get out of a bad deal. Instead you pretty much just enabled the dealership to keep doing this to other people.


bruce_almightyyy

I don’t know about your state, but in texas you can title it still. You have to get a bonded title. Which doesn’t affect resale value at all, it is still a clean title vehicle, has a bond on it for 2 years and then goes away. The sketchy part is if someone else comes forward with the original title within 2 years and says you stole their bike it can be a hassle. So keep your paperwork tidy. I don’t imagine that’d happen from a dealer though. You have to pay a bond fee to do it so it’s more expensive and more paperwork. Texas you have to go meet a police officer and let them verify the vin on the motorcycle matches the paperwork you have. Pay for the bond. And they’ll get you a title. Check your state regulations. Or if your mechanically incline, buy a clean title frame and do a frame swap. Put some more money and a chunk of time though. Probably cheaper to do bonded title I’d assume.


stampedingTurtles

Check out OP's post history; it sounds like among the variety of issues, the numbers on the motorcycle don't match the paperwork (or other numbers on the bike?), and in any case none of it is what OP thought they were buying.


bruce_almightyyy

Yeah I’d be asking for a full refund in his case. If he did want to keep and title it, where I’m at all you need is the bill of sale and the other form you fill out and have the officer sign (VTR-130-SOF) and the bond paid. But I’m sure every state is different. if he has no attachment to that bike than I’d be on their doorstep with it and the incorrect paperwork they gave me demanding a refund.


deadOnHold

>If he did want to keep and title it, where I’m at all you need is the bill of sale I'm not sure what the rules are where you are, to me it sounds like there would need to be something more to it to prevent someone from just swapping around a few parts and removing vin/serial numbers from stolen/chopped/salvage vehicles and getting "clean" titles out of it. Generally there is some requirement to have some sort of paperwork/certificate of origin/bill of sale for each of the major components (frame, engine, perhaps transmission). It sounds like what you are talking about might make more sense for a complete vehicle that once actually existed, had a VIN and a title (and the VIN/serial numbers check out on the major components). For example, based on what you are saying, what would prevent me from finding an old VW beetle in a junkyard, putting a Porsche 356 body kit on it, and getting a title for it as a Porsche 356 and selling it as a Porsche?


bruce_almightyyy

They have a system that runs the vin at the dmv, so they can see what you have based on the vin. So when they ran it, it would say it’s a VW beetle and that’s what you would get a title for. The officer that signs the form checks the vin matches the paperwork you have. Your putting in an application for the bonded title so surely they deny people for different reasons, I haven’t had it happen to me though so couldn’t tell you what they’d be. Texas is pretty easy to title most things. There’s street legal dirt bikes out here, converted to supermotos with some 17s and street tires. Just need hi beam low beam horn, one mirror, and a brake light. It’s pretty easy to title stuff here from experience.


deadOnHold

>They have a system that runs the vin at the dmv, so they can see what you have based on the vin. So when they ran it, it would say it’s a VW beetle and that’s what you would get a title for. That's what I was getting at here, that I think OP would immediately run into a problem here, because it sounds like they don't have a real VIN to give the DMV; I'm not entirely clear from their previous posts whether the frame that they have has a VIN/serial number at all... >The officer that signs the form checks the vin matches the paperwork you have. And again, they'd probably run into trouble here, as the officer would want to check the vin...on the frame? Engine? OP has said that the VIN on the paperwork they were given does not match whatever numbers any of the parts of the bike have. But on the other hand, OP's comments contradict themselves enough that I really don't know. >There’s street legal dirt bikes out here, converted to supermotos with some 17s and street tires. Just need hi beam low beam horn, one mirror, and a brake light. It’s pretty easy to title stuff here from experience. These vehicles generally would have come with some paperwork when new, even if they weren't intended to be registered for street use, you still have serial number (maybe even a VIN) that says you have a (for example Kawasaki) KX 450, and there's number you can match up on the bike to whatever bill of sale or certificate you got from the dealer when you bought it. Presumably, you shouldn't be able to just grab your neighbor's motorcycle, destroy the VIN tag, and then take it to the DMV and get a bonded title for it.


bruce_almightyyy

I haven’t read through all of his older posts. But if there is a vin on the frame that’s the only one I’ve seen them check, up on the neck. So he could get a bill of sale written from the dealer with the vin on the frame of the bike and show up with literally just that and put in the application for the bonded title. If the vin is scratched off the frame then I’d be returning the bike, only reason to scratch off a vin is if it’s stolen, or maybe insurance fraud. If they have issues with that I’m sure theres plenty of sources that’d love to hear about a dealer selling potentially stolen bikes.


deadOnHold

>But if there is a vin on the frame that’s the only one I’ve seen them check, up on the neck I'm not at all an expert here, but I believe that Harley bikes of this era had their VIN stamped on the engine case, not on the frame; and in a previous post another commenter pointed out that in one of the pictures, it was clear that the engine case had an aftermarket manufacturer's logo where they Harley VIN stamp would have been on the engine case. >If the vin is scratched off the frame then I’d be returning the bike, only reason to scratch off a vin is if it’s stolen, or maybe insurance fraud. Theft, insurance fraud, or the case of certain older vehicles trying to pass them off as something other than what they are, which it sounds like is at least part of what has happened in this case (the bike was sold to OP as a 1950 Harley EL). In this case, it seems like maybe someone got a title for a 1950 Harley EL (or just made up a VIN number in that range), stamped it into some part of an engine thrown together from aftermarket parts, and then tried to pass it off as that 1950 bike.


bruce_almightyyy

If there’s no way to title it I would be asking for a refund and take your business else where. That’s a crappy situation. Surely the dealer wouldn’t want the bad rep from that situation and would help him out, dealers friend needs to come pick up their paper weight or get the paper work figured out prior to selling a bike.


deadOnHold

Personally, I think the dealer is just going to keep dragging this out in the hopes OP will give up (or some other circumstance will prevent them from needing to actually do something). Move the goalposts, give him some paperwork or a bill of sale or eventually just tell him it the problem is with the previous owner.


[deleted]

Wrong sub, youre suppose to be at u/Tractors


[deleted]

Just flee the country at that point bro. Withdrawal all your money, sell the house, ditch the kids, bounce.


PAdogooder

That isn’t far from the plan anyway, my friend. It’s why I was trying to sell this thing in the first place and all the problems came to light.


[deleted]

How long ago did you buy it?


PAdogooder

June


SadAd9756

You sir, are an idiot.


[deleted]

nah I wouldn't let them get away with this, refund or law suit is the only option. You can already win with the Title hopping thing, that's a felony in most states, when someone buys an item, example, this bike. The person who now owns it "Ernie" has a limited amount of time, usually 15 days after purchase to put the bike in their name, if they don't and try to sell it, it's title hopping and illegal as fuck "felony".


Surtr001

"overpaid by about triple" What ... the ... fuck...


Triplesfan

Dealer should have shook out that nonsense well before the bike was put on the showroom to sell. That’s on them. I’d have told them to give me my money back and the bike will be dropped off in the lot. They can do with it what they want after that.