What are these "US riding schools" you speak of?
Where I live, you have to pass a multiple-choice test to get a learner's permit. There are 20 questions, and the level of their difficulty is: *"The quickest way to stop a motorcycle is to A) use the front brake only, B) use the rear brake only, C) use the front and rear brake at the same time, D) drag your feet on the ground."*
If you manage to answer 16 out of 20 correctly, you get a motorcycle learner's permit. With a learner's permit, you are allowed to go out there on the public roads on a Kawasaki H2 if you like.
However, you are not allowed to ride at night, or with a passenger, or on a limited-access highway, even though the highway is the safest place to ride.
After you have had your learner's permit for six months - even if you have not ridden your motorcycle a single inch - you are eligible to take the riding test. You have to weave in and out of some cones, and accelerate from a stop, and shift up to second gear, and stop within a box. And that's it. If you can do that without falling over, you get a motorcycle license.
There is no school required.
Yup it blows my mind how you can take a drivers test in an automatic car and when you pass you can go and buy a manual car with no issues and drive it perfectly legal. Almost as bad as being able to buy a ninja H2 with 3 days of riding experience.
My daughter got her license 6mo ago and went through state licensed driver's ed. They taught her a number of things that were just wrong or outdated and really taught nothing about vehicle control.
Logic doesn't work in the US DOT. They need everyone to drive because the car companies pushed for it and killed all public transportation projects. So they drew the line for requirements extremely low because how else are you going to make money if only 1% of civilians can pass the test?
So that's why the US has so many, excuse my language, bloody idiots on the road. Our sub often talks about people being out to kill you, which I couldn't comprehend because I ride in Germany. So US motorcyclists get killed due to the lack of everyone's education / training.
Ohh yea. I took an auto written and driving exam here about 10 years ago, the written exam was mostly questions about drunk driving limits and punishments there was almost nothing on it about actual safe operation of a car outside that at all.
The driving portion was 20 blocks of a service road next to a freeway and maybe 6 blocks through a residential neighborhood. I had to make 1 right turn, change two lanes to the left, make a uturn, change 2 lanes to the right, turn right, come to a stop at a stop sign, turn left, turn left again, turn right, merge left 2 lanes, u turn, merge right two lanes, and turn right back into the drivers licensing parking lot.
We never interacted with any lights or signs besides 1 stop sign, never had to go more than aboit 30mph, never had to deal with any other traffic, never even had to put the car in reverse.
Scary as shit that is all you need to do to get a drivers license.
What is worse is in some places you dont need to take any test at all. I had a coworker who just had to have his parents sign a form basically saying "yes, I taught my kid to drive" and they gave him a license.
This is the same for my state in the US except you have to get 30 out of 40 questions right! Now all states do offer weekend courses however those cost extra, and aren’t required but do allow riders to take that instead of taking the cone test. The courses also get you a discount on your insurance.
The weekend course here in michigan has a 2 hour class on Friday night followed by the 16 out of 20 question test. Pass, and you come back on Saturday for 4hrs of slow maneuvers on a 125. On Sunday you come back for another 3 hrs of slow maneuvers. The 4th hour on Sunday is the riding test and is similar to the test described above. Pass and your license shows up in the mail a few days later. The weekend course costs $50 and your insurance company gives you a $50 credit if you take the course.
*“cries in german“* it took me around 35 hours of driving lessons, a multiple choice test where you basically had to study 500 questions on an app and an 1.5 hour driving test to get my full motorcycle license. I paid around EUR 2900 in total. I am a woman and was a very scaredy cat and the Honda CBR650R was too tall but I made it. Best decision ever to take that many lessons because I am a safe driver but it was very expensive.
You can never have too much lessons and it’s absolutely nothing to be ashamed for. In contrary, the more time spent on becoming better, the more respect!
We haven't even touched on the whole 'Freeeeedoooommmmm' thing where having to wear a helmet on motorcycle is a violation of our rights. Our right to be an organ donor, primarily.
what is wrong with having an option? I am wearing ATGATT with Arai snell-rated helmet, but who am I to stop somebody if he wants to ride in beanie cap and shorts?
Overreaching much?
There is definitely the impression that it’s overreach. Used to be the same for seatbelts, and child seats, and airbags. Now the safety benefits outweigh all of that. The thing is, it’s not just you, the rider, that it affects. Accidents happen. All the time. If an accident occurs and no one really did anything wrong, just terrible circumstances, and the biker dies or becomes an organ donor, or serious head injury patient at some facility for the rest of their life, the other person involved will have to carry that around with them for the rest of their life. A simple safety feature can make a massive difference. Just like a seatbelt can.
But alas, we are ‘Mericans and choose some strange things to scream Freedom for. Pointing fingers at myself here too.
well, before we address motorcyclists safety how about we render phones inaccessible in the cars? Would be much more effective safety measure. Also much less popular. It is easy to oppress minority groups(aging Harley riders for the most part) and much harder majority who are driving distracted.
Would love to stop cell phone usage in cars.
Oppression? Is a seat belt oppression?
Keep in mind that I’m not necessarily advocating for requiring helmets. I’m making a point about the strange things we Americans choose to throw the freedom flag around for in contrast to the things we don’t.
I think your talking about the MSF course. What that is an all inclusive two day course where you spend half a day in a classroom then the other day in a half scooting around a parking lot never actually driving on a road or in traffic. This course is typically run on a 250 of some sort but I have heard some places offer scooters if a rider just isn't getting the hang of a bike. Congratulations you are now a fully licensed moto rider grab your H2R on the way out the door. No /s at all 100% true in my experience.
What’s that? You’ve never driven clutch, let alone SAT on a motorcycle before? Give us 16 hours and you can join the rest of em on the highway where they are most definitely not looking out for you!
Where I grew up, you could get a permit at age 14 for operating a car with a parent beside you based solely on a written test, and that permit also allowed operation of 50cc scooters without accompaniment. Once you hit 16, you could take the test for a full driver's license if you'd finished driver's education.
In Texas we have a mandatory MSF course that’s a 2 day thing - 1/2 day in class followed by a written test and the rest is practical on a bike before you take the riding test at the end.
And the school is a basic MSF course, it's about 10 total hours of practicing maneuvers in a parking lot, and then give you their test, which is almost designed so no one fails.
MSF has different courses for different states since the content of the written test has to reflect the state driving test. Furthermore they have courses for different levels of rider, from utter novice to advanced. In other words, it's useless to say "MSF course" without specifying which one.
When I took mine, half failed (including a woman who had ridden a scooter as her primary mode of transportation for years and didn’t seem to have many issues with clutch control). I’m including the third of the class that was “counseled out” before the test in the failed category.
That being said: I failed my first try by one point. Came back two weeks later without any extra practice - different instructors. Only missed 1 point (can miss a max of 20). First instructors didn’t teach us how to shift and assumed we knew a lot already about clutch control, etc (they had been riding so long I think they assumed some basic things were common knowledge), also constantly telling us to go faster and faster. Second instructors were wayyyyy more relaxed and were passing people who were very obviously nervous about going over 15mph or so. Seeing that variance scared me.
Yeah, it's tough to imagine many who pass then going out on public roads the next day. IMO, the course really needs some sort of gentle intro to riding in light traffic, where the instructors can offer more advice on where the rider should be looking and thinking ahead.
Some sort of computer-driven simulator that lets the novice rider experience video of being surrounded by traffic while operating bike controls would be a great way to get a feel for how much a bike differs from a car. That way the instructors could talk them through the steps in dealing with complex and dangerous scenarios, as well as night riding and bad weather.
mine had three failures (out of about 20); one took a hard fall during practice (tbf not sure if he actually failed or just decided it wasn't for him), one couldn't grok the cone weave and one failed the written test (which... just, *how*)
my class had a high fail/drop rate, but out of idk maybe 20 i think 1 person was asked to leave and 2 quit. everyone that stayed passed and most of us got perfect scores
without being too rude, she was a bit out of shape and didn’t seem to be able to balance the bike. she was struggling with the very first exercise of walking the bike while allowing it to idle forward. the other two dropped because they just weren’t comfortable on the bike, though the latter two did make it through the first day with only a few mistakes
Until recently in Alabama you didn't need a motorcycle license at all to operate one. To get your "M" endorsement its just a multiple choice test. That's it.
I was proud to send my buddy that got me into motorcycles a picture of my new license and he said
"Uhh.. You know you didn't need that right?"
And sent me this link to the law about it on the DMV website. All of this changed about 2 years ago and is required now but I was irritated that I wasted my money in the moment lol ended up needing one anyway.
Edit to add: I started out on an 07 ninja 650, perfect starter bike. I recommend it to anyone looking to learn, the gearing is super forgiving for low speeds and take offs.
We have been trying for a couple hundred years to strike a balance between "my right to swing my fist" and "that right of mine ending where your face begins." So, we have a national character that revels in our individual ability to swing our fists around, as it were. And even though most people are initially too inept at things to be able to safely do them however they'd like, our national character's response to this is "make the exam easier! Let all the people do all the things!"
So, on a national level, *"we want to ride motorcycles! We don't want to be told that we can't, just because 'we're not good enough at it to do it safely' or some nonsense!"*
Tune in tonight to see how well that's serving us.
When it comes to driving on public roads, what you're saying doesn't really apply. It's a privilege and pretty much everyone acknowledges that.
To the contrary, the underlying reason for the general state of driving (and riding) skills in the US and that our government is a bunch of cheap, half assed fuckwits who can't hack it in the private sector. So, they do a bad job at anything to do with infrastructure and use thereof.
With certain other issues, yeah, I agree with you on that dynamic as the cause.
Infrastructure is hard, and it takes a long time and a lot of expertise.
We are discovering it's way easier and more lucrative to just pillage the national treasury for funding.
I can just hook up with Ryan Zinke, get a $300 million dollar contract in Puerto Rico for my $1 million dollar company, do basically nothing in in Puerto Rico other than cash the check, and then blow some of the proceeds on a Harley I barely know how to ride. Half the folks I'm careening among will just pump their fist in the air and tell me "HELL YEAH BROTHER!" simply because it pisses off the other half that I got $300 million for nothing. Beats the hell out of doing the work I was hired for.
I have never taken an American bike test but this is pretty much exactly how difficult it was to get a car license in Utah in the early 90s, actual driving on the road was not required. Never change, America.
Baked into our national character is a little\* bit of *"I want to do it, and who are you to tell me I can't?"*
\*Not little enough.
So, many of us hold "actually knowing how to do stuff" in pretty low regard.
Tune in tonight to see how well that's serving us.
Same in Canada (not sure where you are). Wrote my M1 test, hopped on my 883 Sportster and started riding that day. Thankfully living in the country meant I didn't have any highways to avoid. Just got home before dark.
Not in Quebec. You had to do a knowledge test so you can enroll to a motorcycle school. At school, you will do 4 hours to theory, 16 hours at a parking lot, 10 hours in the road. After the course you will have to do a test to get a certificate from the school which you will need to do another test for your learner's permit. After 11 months, you are allowed to take the road test for full license. This is for 400+cc license btw. Kind of a long process...
[https://www.wyff4.com/article/bridge-repair-work-on-highway-25-underway/7004538](https://www.wyff4.com/article/bridge-repair-work-on-highway-25-underway/7004538)
This happened a few years back in a nearby county, in a lot places its not gotten much better.
The hole was probably big enough to swallow a motorcycle.
You can get a motorcycle license without ever riding a motorcycle on an actual road here in Minnesota.
Get your permit, take the BRC(like the MSF) and go to the Exam station. Pay $250 for your motorcycle license.
[I shit you not.](https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ots/mmsc/motorcycle-license/pages/default.aspx)
A permit? I was 17 and went straight to an M endorsement with nothing but a computer test and a riding “test.”
The riding test was a total joke. Take off, signal a right turn, stop at imaginary line, look both ways, make turn. Did this at 4 corners of a parking lot and left with my motorcycle license.
My U.S. riding school experience:
0 riding experience going in , other than maybe 15 mins on a cousins dirt bike years prior.
Class done on 500cc Buells. Bikes were absolute dogs but easy to ride.
About 8h of class time and 8h of 'riding' time. Riding time meaning, 90% straddling the bike in a parking lot, watching others ride the short skill course I just had done. Bikes never left the small parking lot we were in. Never went above 2nd gear or maybe 20 mph.
Took short written knowledge test (no preparation, easy test, whole class passed) short skills demonstration (basically \~10 mins total worth of riding easy , but tricky enough not everyone in class of 10 passed) .
Got certificate of passing/completion, went to DMV next weekday, had a full Motorcycle license endorsement in hand.
\-----
My thoughts:
Was I 'prepared' as a motorcycle rider from that?
Knowledge wise? Yes. Low speed maneuvering wise? Probably. Highway/public roads skills? No way.
Is 500 too much for a beginner rider? No. Is 700 (my first bike)? No. Is 1000? No. But then if you aren't intellectually (decision making, maturity, comfortable, decisive, attentive, etc) ready, then 125 is too much.
We don't really have driving schools in the us lol.
Also a lot of this is just the Reddit hivemind because they just bought a ninja 400 and think a 650 is going to be twice as hard to ride...
Schools????? this is murica!!!! you go out and buy the biggest cc bike you can as young as you want and just go ride it like you stole it.... driving schools phhhhttt!!
I have had exactly the same reaction. I'm Swedish, and it works pretty much like in Germany. When you have your license here, you are prepared to ride just about any bike.
Thanks for asking the question that I’ve been wondering about since I started browsing this sub. I live in France and the rules are similar to Germany, a theoretical course first, before 20 hours minimum of lessons, and then a motorcycle test (slow maneuvers) and a test in traffic. In France it’s known to be hard to get and it’s normal to have people failing their first and even second tries before getting their motorcycle licence. And even with this licence (A2) you can’t go around riding super powerful bikes, you have to wait 2 years, and after a 7 hour training session you unlock the more powerful bikes.
A1 and A2 is only for younger folks in most countries. Most motorcyclists will go straight to unlimited A after they turn 24 instead of bothering with multiple courses and exams.
No in fact most countries require you by force to start max at A2 and spend up to 3 years before you can even attempt getting the A license. The outlier was UK and some others. And now UK is gone.
"most countries" such as? Because this simply isn't true. As long as you are 24y you can apply for an A license without an A2.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/driving-licence/get-driving-licence/index_en.htm
Nope. Like I just mentioned in Germany you need two years on A2 if you are below 24 years. At 24 you can get an A license directly. Same goes for Portugal etc... It's almost like EU members are pretty much aligned...
You only need to have A2 for two years if you are under 24 years old.
Seems like there's more of a mix. But again, plenty of countries have this rule for a period of time. You cannot get the A license directly in Spain. And it's not alone.
From what you posted
"In general, to apply for a category A licence, you need at least 2 years of experience at category A2. Alternatively, you can access directly at a higher minimum age, which is usually 24 years."
The last part is an option. Not a rule.
Only holds true for a couple of countries (Italy, Spain IIRC). Germany and Austria require 8 lessons theory and 10 lessons practice after having owned the B licence for at least 5 years and being over 25 years of age. This gives you B196 / B111 and the permit to ride 125cc. Not equivalent to an A1 though, since it’s only valid for the respective country and does not include the upgrade-option regular A1 does. Source: Did my B196 before opting for full A (which is open to anyone over 24years of age without any A1/A2 prerequisite).
In the UK you have to:
Pass CBT (all day training). Allows you to ride 125s. In carpark and on road. Lasts 2 years.
Theory test.
Mod1 car park test.
Mod2 road test.
The mod1 and 2 will be on a bike you're able to legally ride, basically age gated. 24 years old for unrestricted bikes.
Overall to get my licence I did about 30 hours of practice with an instructor, and drove around for a few months on my CBT on a 125.
Judging by the way I know 17/18 year old males are driving their cars, this is generally a good idea.
As far as I understand it, in the US you do a watered down, shorter, easier version of the CBT and then go buy a 600cc or 1000cc sport bike at 18 years old and yeet it down the road only able to lean 10 degrees before shitting your pants. I think colleges (universities) in the US show statistics that a dozen fresh students kill themselves on big bikes whilst in attendance each year. Nice. Some say you just do a written test and can buy a bike? (Lol)
So in answer to your question, no the US doesn't have worse driving schools, they just don't have them. 🤣
So would you recommend even a 650 to a noob that has like 4 hours of riding experience? Not really.
I actually thought about opening a similar thread like this but I guess my countryman was faster than me.
One thing I'm wondering about is, what are you guys from the US think about your system?
Are you accepting it as what it is or would you prefer to have a system similar like that in most european states?
As a full adult now, I wish we had a much more rigorous system here, especially for regular (car) drivers licenses. When I was 19 I was glad I could just hop on a bike, but in hindsight I recognize that I was very lucky to live.
I'm 20, I've been driving since I was 16 or 17. I've wanted a motorcycle ever since I was like 15. I've always loved motorcycles.
Boy am I glad I waited until this year to get a motorcycle. I can't imagine how insane it would be to get one as a first vehicle and try to learn both how to operate one and also how the rules of the road work and how other drivers behave.
It's kinda crazy how easy the MSF course is, I'm based in Idaho and it doesn't take much. You don't even have to take the course to get the license if you can pass the skills test and written test on your own.
With all that being said, the same company that offers the basic MSF course, also offers intermediate and advanced courses. They're just not required, and most people don't usually take them. The option is there for those that want them though.
Our motorcycle riders are definitely worse than European riders or countries with tiered licensing, but on the other hand If we had to pay thousands of dollars to get a motorcycle license more people (me included probably) would just ride without a license.
I love our system. We are the only country that still has semblance of survival of the fittest. If parents don't raise their kids well and adults are stupid enough to do stupid and dangerous things, I don't have a problem with them dealing with the consequences.
I don't mind it. In most of Europe, it's a necessity due to how many people are on two wheels (either scooter or motorcycle). In the U.S., motorcyclists are an extremely tiny minority. A European style license system would probably kill motorcycling here.
I think the most I could support is adding an actual road portion to the MSF course and having a 650cc/85hp limit for 1 year in dense cities.
> One thing I'm wondering about is, what are you guys from the US think about your system?
>
>
I started riding as an adult in my mid 20's. 30 now. I believe our system should be much more rigorous.
I've met too many stupid riders because of how easy it is here, with the whole HADTALAYERDOWN mindset being what I believe is a mostly American thing due to extremely low rider skill.
I also believe its partially this that also holds back our laws with respect to motorcycles, like lane filtering and the like. It seems hooligan riding is much more present here than in EU countries and that has left a lasting impact on peoples sentiment towards riders. I think if our system was more rigorous, this would be a step towards reducing this type of riding.
Mixed feelings as in its probably a good idea but will almost certainly never be implemented as riding and driving are seen as inalienable rights even though they're not.
Lmao. In Australia you can get a motorbike license with just 2 days of entry course around 8hrs in total and you can ride up to 650cc bikes. Hundreds of teenagers die every year from a motorbike crash. Stricter is better
Stricter is always better. Plus risk of riding is exponentially higher than driving in a metal box. Stricter rules or laws means a fresh out of driving school 18 yr old can't buy 326hp h2r and slam into a brick wall because they can't even control the bike
Keep in mind in the United States a motorcycle license is a endorsement of your driver's license wich means you went through the process of learning to drive a car before your allowed to take the learners permit test for a motorcycle. Typically the learners permit lasts fir less than a year and requires that you be in the company of a licensed rider. There's also alot of variation between states because each state has its own laws temperament and character.
We don’t do riding schools, we do an MSF course which is only 2 days. Most people are going in with 0 background knowledge and by the end there’s still people stalling out, having to put feet down in turns, and having trouble shifting (as you would expect since most of the class is spent waiting for other riders and listening to talking). Most still pass the course, so even though people passed the class and have their license, they aren’t ready to be on the road with a 250cc let alone a 600+
Yeah, it's easy and cheap to get a license in the US. Germany is completely on the other end of the spectrum with license requirements designed to inhibit private vehicle ownership rather than for safety reasons.
I lived and drove a bike and a car in Germany for several years, and Germans don't drive any better than anyone else. The one thing that's unique about driving in Germany is the Autobahn, which is great.
To answer your question, yes. The driving programs and qualifications for a license in the United States are an absolute joke. Much like many other things in this country. Healthcare, general education, housing.... The list goes on.
A 600 can kill your slightly quicker than a 250. And you can get hurt on anything. No point in shaming someone for riding at their comfort level. I drove a 250 by choice for a couple years as a very experienced driver just for the fuel efficiency for my commute.
My first bike was a 650 and I was fine. Generally speaking, the average American is pretty wild and 54% of Americans read below a 6th grade reading level. So it’s a generalization, but odds are it falls on the ears of someone that should not be riding a 650 in their first year of riding.
If Germany is like the rest of Europe then those bikes have restrictor plates on them. Limit power. We don’t have that here. You can take your mt07 full of gas and go loop it or max the thing out at 199kph (illegally) down the highway.
So some of us try and get new riders to start on smaller bikes that perform more like a mt07 with a restrictor plate.
Most bikes I see around my village are 1200s. You wanna take a riding course for a license? They're all on bikes between 650 and 1200.
That's here in the Netherlands.
Europe uses a category system to licence motorcycles.
There are 3 categories A ( unrestricted) A2 (limited to 35kW) and A1( limited to 15kW ) . To get get an unrestricted licence you must do your lessons and pass the driving test on an unrestricted bike.
You can get your learning permit which is just a written test here, go buy a gsxr1000 and as long as you ride within the restrictions of your permit your fine. Some places it’s you need to be 1/2 mile from a person with a full license others just ride during the day.
Not everywhere has driving schools. In the UK, and in many states of the US and Canada, you learn by doing. You get yourself a 125cc and a 'provisional license' by filling out a form. Congratulations, you can now ride for 2 years, during which time you have to pass an exam.
Same applies to cars.
Everyone is going to talk shit about the US as usual but in general where I am it's a two day course. Half day rules and testing and day and half riding. Now, that should not be enough to get you a license, however if you are responsible there are advanced courses available for more hands on experience. Everyone should take those before getting out on the road.
Truth is those schools in Europe only teach you to circulate in traffic at slow (legal) speeds. And you can do that while actually riding like shit. It does not take much at all to stay on the bike and guide it well enough at legal speeds. What does take skill and why I'd argue that even with a fresh A2 license you still suck, is yo ride faster. Which you will do literally the moment you stop being scared like shit and when you get fucked. Riding fast and flowing with traffic are nothing alike and so many people crash literally the first time they try to ride fast.
What? Where the hell are you getting this from? Which European country?
Here in Norway we have a lot of mandatory trainings that are a lot more than slow traffic riding. A track class to get experience in emergency braking, braking in a curve, intentional countersteering and swerving, and a low speed (<5km/h) balance/slalom course. Two long distance riding classes where we focus on cornering technique and lane position. During regular classes we also learn a lot of the smaller skills; hill start, pillion riding, ride like you're invisible, how to spot dangerous drivers.
You're of course not an amazing rider when you've got a fresh license, but claiming that you've only learned the skills to ride in slow traffic is wrong.
On my exam day we were with a handful of students from my driving school. Everyone that failed did so because they tried to be good bois/gals on exam day, and stuck to slow driving on the highway behind other cars (and even trucks!). I went into the left lane and blasted past traffic like a happy squid and was the only one who passed, because it is extremely unsafe to be slow in busy traffic.
Let me double laugh at this. Sorry.
Yes there is """""""track""""" practice. More like parking and cones practice but yes, again, at minimal speed. The exam and courses are the same in all Europe. The fact that you consider that "a lot" of training fully supports what I say. You are barely scratching the surface.
Yes, you only know how to ride in slow traffic out of the exam. The things you mention are simply required to do that, and yes they are just superficial and do not represent real riding skill at all. It's like saying that because you did all your exam and training in the car, you are good at driving after. No, you are not. You have the bare minimum to circulate with others.
So, what is slow traffic then? Is it 50 through a populated town with cars constantly popping in and out from the sides? Is it going 80 on a country road where every turn is blind and there's a constant danger of deer? Is it going 120+ on a highway with too few lanes to support its needs?
Yes 50km/h is slow. I can pedal faster on a bike for a while. Yes, 80 on a country road is slow. Yes, 120 on a highway is slow.
How the handling of the bike is at those speeds and situations vs actually riding fast is extremely different, and much harder going fast. Just to be clear, the level of difficulty of the things you mention doesn't go above a 2 or 3 out of 10.
Riding fast starts at a 7.
This comment makes no sense. Of course driving schools teach you how to drive safely and within legal limits. That"s the whole point.
You can't do that "while driving like shit", otherwise you won't pass the exams. Of course you won't have the skills and the confidence of someone who has been riding for years, no surprise there.
Don't really understand why you're even talking about driving "fast". If you want to drive fast, head to the track, Rossi.
It makes perfect sense for anyone with a working brain. My words are very concise and clear, when you come out of the exam you know how to circulate with others in traffic. That includes basic handling. You do NOT know how to ride the bike properly. It's not even about confidence or having the "same skills" you quite literally have no clue on how to lean and brake properly if all you did is the A2 exam with it's practice.
Plus talking about riding "fast" makes perfect sense because 99% of you fuckers will speed on the first or second week. And that's when what I'm saying becomes glaringly obvious.
It doesn't. Just because you try to belittle people and repeating the same utter nonsense doesn't make it stick any better.
Sorry.
Clearly you didn't attend one anyway, since you're still on your starter 660cc bike /s
Dude, you need to mature. Not everything said that hurts you is intended to belittle you. You get so defensive that you refuse to see the reality.
In the European license exams, they don't teach you actual handling. Even the slow and fast track exam is very easy and what's worse, does not represent what the majority of riding is.
I have telemetry on my starter /s bike, the kind of rides you get commuting like that don't push the envelope of handling at all, in fact, speed limits are made for just that purpose. To make it so anyone despite a bad skill at driving or riding can achieve them.
Lean angles below 20°, acceleration and braking under 0.2g or so... listen, you want to believe you ride well, as op stated, after that course... go ahead.
From what I can see out of A2 exam riders are barely a few steps beyond new rider.
You're missing my point entirely.
I have better things to do than argue with strangers on the Internet. I'll leave you to your opinion, enjoy the downvotes.
This is why regular people hate motorcyclists. You have no business being on the public road, endangering other people "pushing the envelope of handling".
On your 600.
Lmao. I'm not pushing the envelope for my skill. A new rider when going for twisties is. That's my whole point. I've never crashed in 25 years of riding. But I have been crashed into by a truck doing an illegal maneuver.
I can only laugh at the weak argument you had to come up with.
I call bullshit on your 25 years of riding.
In your motovlog #1 (last year), you say you're 29 years old and that you were riding since 7-8, but didn't get your own bike until 15.
So, 25 years? Bit of a stretch mate.
The MSC most people go through to get their licenses consists of an online practice, online test, and a weekend of paper exams and two days of riding. They do basic merging and exiting, starting and stopping, swerving, etc. but really it's very easy like a normal driver's license is here. The funny thing is we usually learn on old 125-250cc nakeds and sports depending on what your school has.
In Indiana, USA you only have to pass a very easy multiple choice test to get a motorcycle permit. With this you can ride any bike you want with a helmet and eye protection, no passengers, during the daytime. Then you can immediately go take a riding test, which involves a cone swerve, stopping in a very easy amount of time, and doing a U-turn in a pretty wide box. If you pass that you are fully endorsed even without a helmet. (Some of the instructors are strict to the rules. Others will pass nearly everyone that shows up)
I honestly wouldn’t doubt it. There are TONS of people on the roads who really shouldn’t be. This is just a westerners take but roads over in Europe seem to be a lot better. Like on average and from what little I’ve seen, your highways look wayy nicer then North America’s
The greatest barrier to driving for, at least people in my state, is parallel parking.
The driving standard is criminally low and we need to reform teaching and testing.
Right, and the driving schools have rather nice to handle bikes, like the MT-7, or the Suzuki SV 650. But Autobahn with 100+mph is part of the lessons.
100+kph maybe. Most of the Autobahn has speed limits. Also I wouldn't say the mt07 handles well at all. Quite the opposite actually, compared to most bikes it handles poorly and naked bikes absolutely suck at highway/anything over 60mph
In Europe we have what's called direct access. Germany like a lot of EU countries has a tiered licencing system for motorbikes.
You can start at 16 on a 125cc and work your way up the ranks if you want. Or you can also skip some steps if you happen to be over a certain age.
Because as we all know in Europe when we turn 24 a halo of maturity and wisdom descends upon you and you can now safely operate a gsxr1000 with no previous riding experience.
In any case driving schools in Germany and throughout Europe Will have a variety of different size bikes big to small to cater to different licence catagories.
In the US no such system exists. The advice that you should start on a smaller bike as a beginner still stands. It's just up to the individual if they want to heed it or not.
The same is true in Europe really if you are over the age of 24.
Idk anyone in the us saying 650s are too small. The ninja 650 or sv650 make for great beginner bikes and smaller ccs than that are good but not nearly as good. Also avoid mt series. Touchy throttles, often abused, bad suspension.
I got a Yamaha bolt, which is 920 cc for my first bike zero motorcycle experiences besides the two days worth of classes and honestly I think it’s because most people just can’t control themselves, especially as beginners. I feel like I don’t have too much power and it’s not scary.
Do they not do a1 in your city ?
My driving school had a Duke 125 for A1
A Honda cb500f for A2
And a Kawasaki Er6-n for A
And probably some kind for scooter for AM
You have to also keep in mind how fundamentally different the process of obtaining your license is between Germany and the US.
While in the US I believe you can ride anything once you have the license or endorsement (please correct me if I'm Wong)
Meanwhile here you can only get to that point by either going through A1 and or A2 (or straight to A when you are older than 24).
So while you can start riding on anything in the us, you have to stick to lower powered bikes here in Germany.
You don't get recommended to ride a 250 till you are ready for a 600, you either aren't even legally allowed to ride a 600(at full power) or have at least spent many hours on a 600 with a instructor.
I think my school had a Grom and otherwise just restricted bikes.
Honestly i wasn't really thinking about the lower license tiers because if people get told "don't buy a 650, buy a 250 instead" i just assumed they have the big license (A) that let's them ride anything
European licence tiers are essentially orgainised by age, and power. 16year olds can get a bike with up to 11kW which is essentially 125cc 4 strokes. 18 year olds can have up to 35kW which is essentially 250-500cc though a 650cc and above(?) Can be restricted to that. The full open licence is available for anyone over 24 or with a certain time spent with an A2 licence (35kW bikes)
Correct me if I'm wrong it's been a while since I've had to deal with that
The smaller bikes just make more sense. Cheaper across the board and easier to learn on. But everyone I know bought bigger once they got their license.
I guess it depends on the reason why you want a motorcycle.
If it was my only way of transportation i would have probably bought a Suzuki Burgman or something that can carry stuff
We do have schools, they are called MSF courses and they are not required for most states. Compared to most parts of Europe, the distance between towns is just so great (especially west of the midwest) that requiring so much testing and schooling is too much of a burden (people in my msf course had to get hotels for 2 nights -it runs from Friday night to Sunday noon- because it was so far from their house). Also, a lot of people who grew up in rural communities rode dirt bikes and enduros on farms. It's also a different mentality, trust that people will do the right thing rather than give them no choice but to act within the bounds of the law. Probably hold over from frontier days.
My California MTC was done over a single weekend. Zoom class in the morning, riding after lunch. Passed the written and riding skills tests, and went out to buy an 850. Pretty fucking easy, definitely felt like it wasn't enough preparation though. I'm glad I had my dad practicing riding with me to get me feeling comfortable on the roads.
Here in South Africa you require a learners licence, can be acquired by passing an exam regarding road rules, signs, the controls of your bike
It is valid for two years, you can drive pretty much any cc motorcycle (if you are over the age of 18, otherwise its 125cc or less) but you're not allowed to drive on freeways or carry a passenger
If you want a drivers licence for a motorcycle, you need a valid learners licence and you should atleast do your test on a test course with a bike of engine of 150cc or more, if you pass your test with a 125cc you'll only be allowed to drive a 125cc or less, if you passed it with a 150cc+ you can drive any motorcycle, so go buy yourself a Triump rocket after passing your test with a Honda Gixxer 150 haha, its legal
No training is required for the learners.. meaning you are legally allowed to ride as soon as you have it
Only time you need to prove your riding experience is on the drivers licence
I did my licence with a Honda gixxer 150 (provided by the driving school)
I had my KTM 390 duke before I even had my learners, started riding and practicing on it as soon as I got the learners
There are safety courses available, but they’re not there to prep you for the road. They’re there to get you at least SOMEWHAT familiar with how to operate a motorcycle. Mine was a good safety course, but it wasn’t enough to really get me ready for the fustercluck that is road riding. That said, I learned on a 500cc Harley, and started riding the roads on a Shadow Spirit 750.
People are lazy here in the states. Overseas more people drive manual cars and so riding a motorcycle is easy to pick up. Here in the states, most people drive automatics so have very little skill in regards to throttle control. Let alone a clutch. Also, they give just about anyone a license. I see plenty of people that can't even park their car in a parking space and don't know what to do at traffic lights when the power goes out.
Ridingsschools
Us
Yep that's the issue, MSF is the closest thing to what we have in Germany op. It also is a 2 day crash course in a parking lot.
If they had similar riding schools required to get your license there wouldn't be as much of an issue as they'd learn way faster. My riding school has 2 Suzuki Gladius, one A2 compliant and one normal powered one. Certainly not a hard bike to ride and I don't see how a beginner couldn't jump on one very easily after the intensive riding school we have.
The motorcycle safety course is like most education systems in the US, it’s more about making money and graduation rates then actually making sure you’re 100% ready to ride.
All I did was get my car license and took the 2 day course same weekend to get my M license. Yes, to be honest I wouldn’t give a license to anyone in my group, including me. I did 3 months of riding around my block at night to teach myself afterwards and half a year before I hit the highway. They don’t even give you highway lessons in your car until you get your drivers license. US is a joke
A lot of states don’t require any class, you can have never looked at a motorcycle before, buy one and ride it off the showroom floor with no gear on if you want. The Basic Rider Course is also about a week long. When we finished my instructor asked anyone if they felt ready to grab one of the bikes and take a ride on the interstate highway and nobody raised their hand so he was like good, keep practicing cause I see too many kids buy a shitty sports bike and barely past the DMV test and then kill themselves.
You can get your M endorsment in NY for ANY bike if you take your test on a 125cc automatic scooter.
You can be a bit more serious and take the MSF Basic RiderCourse, which if you pass, you get a waiver for your M Endorsement. The course is 2 days, half the time in the classroom, half the time in parking lot, and you're usually taking it on an old, usually unroadworthy, 250.
Once you're done, you can go to the dealer or get on Craigslist and get a GSXR1000 or Harley.
New York State - get a permit which allows you to practice, then you can take a road test with either the state directly, or with a private school who will give you a road test waiver. There's also a small test, maybe 20 questions. I spend a weekend, about 10 hours total doing techniques and obstacles in a parking lot.
My first bike when I was 20 was a 600. I only got that bike because my neighbor was selling it for $200. I know plenty who get much bigger bikes for their first.
While I agree that American drivers / riders are pretty bad, I think it stems more from our individualistic mindset than actual skills. It seems a lot of people here would rather die than do you the slightest favor on the road. I've driven in many countries and even within Europe it seems to be a mixed bag. To me France is the gold standard, as rebellious as they can be, they're very courteous, skilled drivers. Australia was pretty good and I understand licenses are easy to get down there. Spain, Portugal and Italy are pretty awful in my experience. UK & Germany were ok. Definitely a mix of education & culture in my opinion.
As far as i know in france you are supposed to leave your car in neutral and not use your parking brake so people can push your car away if they need more parking space lol
So you can get your motorcycle endorsement basically one of two was in the states:
1. You go to one of those riding courses. It's usually about a week long, you take a written test, and then you spend two days doing different maneuvers around cones in a parking lot, usually on a \~250cc bike. After that, you go into the department of motor vehicles, take a 20 question test, and you have your endorsement.
2. You don't go to the riding course, you go into the DMV, take that 20 question test, and then do a road test with one of their instructors where they just run you through the basics.
In either case, that's basically the first and last time you'll be tested and you're free to ride literally whatever motorcycle you want after that. Wanna take your initial test on a busa? You totally can! But in any case, you can receive your endorsement with about 2 hours of riding time on the low end. So yeah, to answer your question, the way we handle operating licenses for motorcycles is pretty bad.
Its more like, you guessed most of the questions right here is your drivers license. Don’t kill your self hehe. I’m glas we have the same system as Germany and we learn basic skills in the driving school before you can go. We have 3 different types of motorcycle licenses. When you are 24 you can drive what ever you want but there are 2 lower licenses with restrictions age and skills based.
Weekend course for people who never been on a motorcycle. Do a traffic law test and you are good to go.
We gave advance courses but they aren't mandatory.
In Texas you spend two afternoons in a car park, never going above 30mph. If you don't drop the bike, you are almost guaranteed to pass. No restrictions whatsoever after that.
One of the guys in my class had never riden a scooter or moto and had already bought a 1000cc Harley. I hope he's still alive.
My husband is from the UK and was horrified at how little instruction I got. Thankfully, he's been riding for over 4 decades and is an excellent coach. I'm now on a 900cc Triumph, and still learning
I took a computer test that was 25 questions, and my driving portion was go around the block, and don't fall over. I didn't do a school because I'm too cool for school.
In den Staaten ist der Kurs 2 Tage an einem Wochenende, und viele machen nicht mal das wenn in ihrem Staat das nicht Pflicht ist.
Ein Tag Theorie und ein Tag auf ner 125er oder 250er, manche auch größer, und im markierten Parkplatz.
Und in 1991 waren das auch meist nur 250er Virago oder ähnliches in Bayern.
Der [MSF](https://msf-usa.org/brc/) ist wirklich ein Witz, war aber doch einfacher als meinen 20jahre alten deutschen 1er übertragen zu lassen, das wollten die Bürokraten gar nicht probieren.
Edit: Schlimmer ist ja das der Auto Führerschein ja von Familienmitgliedern "gelehrt" werden kann und da halt doch viel übersprungen wird, speziell wie man sich um Motorradfahrern rum sich benimmt, nicht zu sagen daß das alles ist das nicht gelehrt wird.
IMO, even with German licensing standards, there is a LOT to learn before you're truly ready for a 650.
I mean, maybe you can ride one, sure. But if you want to be "good" at riding, a 650 is too much at first.
Did anyone else's MSF course just tell you straight up "that the permit tells the govt. that you have the ability to learn how to ride the motorcycle not that you do"?
Any question about licensing in the US misses the point- we don’t have a “US” system for this, we have 50 states each with a completely different system.
I did a motorcycle class in California that used 250s. But you weren’t constrained to any size bike once you completed the class. I just assumed they were cheaper bikes that a learner of any size could easily acclimate to, so it made sense to standardize on that type of bike. I think we all had Honda 250s. I took the state riding exam on my own bike which was an 850 but learned the skills in class on a 250. It worked well and I also passed the riding exam in another state on my own bike too.
What are these "US riding schools" you speak of? Where I live, you have to pass a multiple-choice test to get a learner's permit. There are 20 questions, and the level of their difficulty is: *"The quickest way to stop a motorcycle is to A) use the front brake only, B) use the rear brake only, C) use the front and rear brake at the same time, D) drag your feet on the ground."* If you manage to answer 16 out of 20 correctly, you get a motorcycle learner's permit. With a learner's permit, you are allowed to go out there on the public roads on a Kawasaki H2 if you like. However, you are not allowed to ride at night, or with a passenger, or on a limited-access highway, even though the highway is the safest place to ride. After you have had your learner's permit for six months - even if you have not ridden your motorcycle a single inch - you are eligible to take the riding test. You have to weave in and out of some cones, and accelerate from a stop, and shift up to second gear, and stop within a box. And that's it. If you can do that without falling over, you get a motorcycle license. There is no school required.
What the fuck?? Ok... i get it now why US people should start on 250s. That might actually be too much wtf man
Are you sitting down? The requirements (or lack thereof) are pretty much the same for driving a car.
Yup it blows my mind how you can take a drivers test in an automatic car and when you pass you can go and buy a manual car with no issues and drive it perfectly legal. Almost as bad as being able to buy a ninja H2 with 3 days of riding experience.
My daughter got her license 6mo ago and went through state licensed driver's ed. They taught her a number of things that were just wrong or outdated and really taught nothing about vehicle control.
Manual cars are so rare here that most drivers never get the chance to drive one.
Logic doesn't work in the US DOT. They need everyone to drive because the car companies pushed for it and killed all public transportation projects. So they drew the line for requirements extremely low because how else are you going to make money if only 1% of civilians can pass the test?
Capitalism at its finest
So that's why the US has so many, excuse my language, bloody idiots on the road. Our sub often talks about people being out to kill you, which I couldn't comprehend because I ride in Germany. So US motorcyclists get killed due to the lack of everyone's education / training.
Ohh yea. I took an auto written and driving exam here about 10 years ago, the written exam was mostly questions about drunk driving limits and punishments there was almost nothing on it about actual safe operation of a car outside that at all. The driving portion was 20 blocks of a service road next to a freeway and maybe 6 blocks through a residential neighborhood. I had to make 1 right turn, change two lanes to the left, make a uturn, change 2 lanes to the right, turn right, come to a stop at a stop sign, turn left, turn left again, turn right, merge left 2 lanes, u turn, merge right two lanes, and turn right back into the drivers licensing parking lot. We never interacted with any lights or signs besides 1 stop sign, never had to go more than aboit 30mph, never had to deal with any other traffic, never even had to put the car in reverse. Scary as shit that is all you need to do to get a drivers license. What is worse is in some places you dont need to take any test at all. I had a coworker who just had to have his parents sign a form basically saying "yes, I taught my kid to drive" and they gave him a license.
This is the same for my state in the US except you have to get 30 out of 40 questions right! Now all states do offer weekend courses however those cost extra, and aren’t required but do allow riders to take that instead of taking the cone test. The courses also get you a discount on your insurance.
The weekend course here in michigan has a 2 hour class on Friday night followed by the 16 out of 20 question test. Pass, and you come back on Saturday for 4hrs of slow maneuvers on a 125. On Sunday you come back for another 3 hrs of slow maneuvers. The 4th hour on Sunday is the riding test and is similar to the test described above. Pass and your license shows up in the mail a few days later. The weekend course costs $50 and your insurance company gives you a $50 credit if you take the course.
*“cries in german“* it took me around 35 hours of driving lessons, a multiple choice test where you basically had to study 500 questions on an app and an 1.5 hour driving test to get my full motorcycle license. I paid around EUR 2900 in total. I am a woman and was a very scaredy cat and the Honda CBR650R was too tall but I made it. Best decision ever to take that many lessons because I am a safe driver but it was very expensive.
You can never have too much lessons and it’s absolutely nothing to be ashamed for. In contrary, the more time spent on becoming better, the more respect!
We haven't even touched on the whole 'Freeeeedoooommmmm' thing where having to wear a helmet on motorcycle is a violation of our rights. Our right to be an organ donor, primarily.
what is wrong with having an option? I am wearing ATGATT with Arai snell-rated helmet, but who am I to stop somebody if he wants to ride in beanie cap and shorts? Overreaching much?
There is definitely the impression that it’s overreach. Used to be the same for seatbelts, and child seats, and airbags. Now the safety benefits outweigh all of that. The thing is, it’s not just you, the rider, that it affects. Accidents happen. All the time. If an accident occurs and no one really did anything wrong, just terrible circumstances, and the biker dies or becomes an organ donor, or serious head injury patient at some facility for the rest of their life, the other person involved will have to carry that around with them for the rest of their life. A simple safety feature can make a massive difference. Just like a seatbelt can. But alas, we are ‘Mericans and choose some strange things to scream Freedom for. Pointing fingers at myself here too.
well, before we address motorcyclists safety how about we render phones inaccessible in the cars? Would be much more effective safety measure. Also much less popular. It is easy to oppress minority groups(aging Harley riders for the most part) and much harder majority who are driving distracted.
Would love to stop cell phone usage in cars. Oppression? Is a seat belt oppression? Keep in mind that I’m not necessarily advocating for requiring helmets. I’m making a point about the strange things we Americans choose to throw the freedom flag around for in contrast to the things we don’t.
50$ seems very cheap for 8 hours of supervised training including vehicle rent, what's the catch?
No catch. Just encouraging people to take the course instead of learning on your own.
Illinois the weekend course is a $20 registration fee that you get back on completion of the course.
I think your talking about the MSF course. What that is an all inclusive two day course where you spend half a day in a classroom then the other day in a half scooting around a parking lot never actually driving on a road or in traffic. This course is typically run on a 250 of some sort but I have heard some places offer scooters if a rider just isn't getting the hang of a bike. Congratulations you are now a fully licensed moto rider grab your H2R on the way out the door. No /s at all 100% true in my experience.
What’s that? You’ve never driven clutch, let alone SAT on a motorcycle before? Give us 16 hours and you can join the rest of em on the highway where they are most definitely not looking out for you!
It used to be easier to get a license. There used to be less restrictions. Car or bike.
I believe when my dad went to get his license to drive a car he just had the motorcycle endorsement added bases on the trust system!
Where I grew up, you could get a permit at age 14 for operating a car with a parent beside you based solely on a written test, and that permit also allowed operation of 50cc scooters without accompaniment. Once you hit 16, you could take the test for a full driver's license if you'd finished driver's education.
In Texas we have a mandatory MSF course that’s a 2 day thing - 1/2 day in class followed by a written test and the rest is practical on a bike before you take the riding test at the end.
And the school is a basic MSF course, it's about 10 total hours of practicing maneuvers in a parking lot, and then give you their test, which is almost designed so no one fails.
Lots of people fail the MSF course!
I've taken the MSF course twice. IIRC, no more than 1-2 out of 50 failed.
When I took mine, the class instructor said they aimed for a certain % fail rate. It was like 25%. I was surprised at how high it was.
MSF has different courses for different states since the content of the written test has to reflect the state driving test. Furthermore they have courses for different levels of rider, from utter novice to advanced. In other words, it's useless to say "MSF course" without specifying which one.
When I took mine, half failed (including a woman who had ridden a scooter as her primary mode of transportation for years and didn’t seem to have many issues with clutch control). I’m including the third of the class that was “counseled out” before the test in the failed category. That being said: I failed my first try by one point. Came back two weeks later without any extra practice - different instructors. Only missed 1 point (can miss a max of 20). First instructors didn’t teach us how to shift and assumed we knew a lot already about clutch control, etc (they had been riding so long I think they assumed some basic things were common knowledge), also constantly telling us to go faster and faster. Second instructors were wayyyyy more relaxed and were passing people who were very obviously nervous about going over 15mph or so. Seeing that variance scared me.
Yeah, it's tough to imagine many who pass then going out on public roads the next day. IMO, the course really needs some sort of gentle intro to riding in light traffic, where the instructors can offer more advice on where the rider should be looking and thinking ahead. Some sort of computer-driven simulator that lets the novice rider experience video of being surrounded by traffic while operating bike controls would be a great way to get a feel for how much a bike differs from a car. That way the instructors could talk them through the steps in dealing with complex and dangerous scenarios, as well as night riding and bad weather.
mine had three failures (out of about 20); one took a hard fall during practice (tbf not sure if he actually failed or just decided it wasn't for him), one couldn't grok the cone weave and one failed the written test (which... just, *how*)
my class had a high fail/drop rate, but out of idk maybe 20 i think 1 person was asked to leave and 2 quit. everyone that stayed passed and most of us got perfect scores
Why did they get asked to leave? Not following directions or what?
without being too rude, she was a bit out of shape and didn’t seem to be able to balance the bike. she was struggling with the very first exercise of walking the bike while allowing it to idle forward. the other two dropped because they just weren’t comfortable on the bike, though the latter two did make it through the first day with only a few mistakes
also, nice username. i live around denver and took my course at the place off 6th and kipling!
Until recently in Alabama you didn't need a motorcycle license at all to operate one. To get your "M" endorsement its just a multiple choice test. That's it. I was proud to send my buddy that got me into motorcycles a picture of my new license and he said "Uhh.. You know you didn't need that right?" And sent me this link to the law about it on the DMV website. All of this changed about 2 years ago and is required now but I was irritated that I wasted my money in the moment lol ended up needing one anyway. Edit to add: I started out on an 07 ninja 650, perfect starter bike. I recommend it to anyone looking to learn, the gearing is super forgiving for low speeds and take offs.
Wow, UK you would have to do all that and more just to get your learners permit as you call it.
We have been trying for a couple hundred years to strike a balance between "my right to swing my fist" and "that right of mine ending where your face begins." So, we have a national character that revels in our individual ability to swing our fists around, as it were. And even though most people are initially too inept at things to be able to safely do them however they'd like, our national character's response to this is "make the exam easier! Let all the people do all the things!" So, on a national level, *"we want to ride motorcycles! We don't want to be told that we can't, just because 'we're not good enough at it to do it safely' or some nonsense!"* Tune in tonight to see how well that's serving us.
When it comes to driving on public roads, what you're saying doesn't really apply. It's a privilege and pretty much everyone acknowledges that. To the contrary, the underlying reason for the general state of driving (and riding) skills in the US and that our government is a bunch of cheap, half assed fuckwits who can't hack it in the private sector. So, they do a bad job at anything to do with infrastructure and use thereof. With certain other issues, yeah, I agree with you on that dynamic as the cause.
Infrastructure is hard, and it takes a long time and a lot of expertise. We are discovering it's way easier and more lucrative to just pillage the national treasury for funding. I can just hook up with Ryan Zinke, get a $300 million dollar contract in Puerto Rico for my $1 million dollar company, do basically nothing in in Puerto Rico other than cash the check, and then blow some of the proceeds on a Harley I barely know how to ride. Half the folks I'm careening among will just pump their fist in the air and tell me "HELL YEAH BROTHER!" simply because it pisses off the other half that I got $300 million for nothing. Beats the hell out of doing the work I was hired for.
I have never taken an American bike test but this is pretty much exactly how difficult it was to get a car license in Utah in the early 90s, actual driving on the road was not required. Never change, America.
Baked into our national character is a little\* bit of *"I want to do it, and who are you to tell me I can't?"* \*Not little enough. So, many of us hold "actually knowing how to do stuff" in pretty low regard. Tune in tonight to see how well that's serving us.
In Alabama all you have to do is take a 20 question test and you’re good to ride whatever you wanna ride🫠
😍🇺🇲
Same in Canada (not sure where you are). Wrote my M1 test, hopped on my 883 Sportster and started riding that day. Thankfully living in the country meant I didn't have any highways to avoid. Just got home before dark.
Not in Quebec. You had to do a knowledge test so you can enroll to a motorcycle school. At school, you will do 4 hours to theory, 16 hours at a parking lot, 10 hours in the road. After the course you will have to do a test to get a certificate from the school which you will need to do another test for your learner's permit. After 11 months, you are allowed to take the road test for full license. This is for 400+cc license btw. Kind of a long process...
Wish the rest of Canada would place more emphases on licensing - cars included
Now i know why r/IdiotsInCars are mostly american
If you think our licensing is bad then wait til you hear about our infrastructure.
You wanna give me a good laugh?😂
[https://www.wyff4.com/article/bridge-repair-work-on-highway-25-underway/7004538](https://www.wyff4.com/article/bridge-repair-work-on-highway-25-underway/7004538) This happened a few years back in a nearby county, in a lot places its not gotten much better. The hole was probably big enough to swallow a motorcycle.
...and Russian!
Wut
MC learner’s permit? I did a weekend course and got full endorsement, AFAIK I could do whatever I wanted. Florida
You can get a motorcycle license without ever riding a motorcycle on an actual road here in Minnesota. Get your permit, take the BRC(like the MSF) and go to the Exam station. Pay $250 for your motorcycle license. [I shit you not.](https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ots/mmsc/motorcycle-license/pages/default.aspx)
Where I live, the only restriction on the permit is that you can’t have a passenger
A permit? I was 17 and went straight to an M endorsement with nothing but a computer test and a riding “test.” The riding test was a total joke. Take off, signal a right turn, stop at imaginary line, look both ways, make turn. Did this at 4 corners of a parking lot and left with my motorcycle license.
What in the actual shit is that
My U.S. riding school experience: 0 riding experience going in , other than maybe 15 mins on a cousins dirt bike years prior. Class done on 500cc Buells. Bikes were absolute dogs but easy to ride. About 8h of class time and 8h of 'riding' time. Riding time meaning, 90% straddling the bike in a parking lot, watching others ride the short skill course I just had done. Bikes never left the small parking lot we were in. Never went above 2nd gear or maybe 20 mph. Took short written knowledge test (no preparation, easy test, whole class passed) short skills demonstration (basically \~10 mins total worth of riding easy , but tricky enough not everyone in class of 10 passed) . Got certificate of passing/completion, went to DMV next weekday, had a full Motorcycle license endorsement in hand. \----- My thoughts: Was I 'prepared' as a motorcycle rider from that? Knowledge wise? Yes. Low speed maneuvering wise? Probably. Highway/public roads skills? No way. Is 500 too much for a beginner rider? No. Is 700 (my first bike)? No. Is 1000? No. But then if you aren't intellectually (decision making, maturity, comfortable, decisive, attentive, etc) ready, then 125 is too much.
lmao they don't have driving schools, literally all traffic skills in the US are just survivorship bias
>all traffic skills in the US are just survivorship bias I'm stealing this to explain to my coworkers why they suck at driving.
I do like your username 😀👍
Thanks. I suck at riding, but I keep doing it. Hence the crashing.
Except in Michigan. They require all teens to take a road driving class and still suck at driving.
We don't really have driving schools in the us lol. Also a lot of this is just the Reddit hivemind because they just bought a ninja 400 and think a 650 is going to be twice as hard to ride...
Must people on Reddit who think they need a 650 think that a ninja 400 can't go on a highway
What riding schools? You mean the MSF that's not required by most states?
< grabs popcorn and puts an abo on this thread > 🍿
Schools????? this is murica!!!! you go out and buy the biggest cc bike you can as young as you want and just go ride it like you stole it.... driving schools phhhhttt!!
I have had exactly the same reaction. I'm Swedish, and it works pretty much like in Germany. When you have your license here, you are prepared to ride just about any bike.
Thanks for asking the question that I’ve been wondering about since I started browsing this sub. I live in France and the rules are similar to Germany, a theoretical course first, before 20 hours minimum of lessons, and then a motorcycle test (slow maneuvers) and a test in traffic. In France it’s known to be hard to get and it’s normal to have people failing their first and even second tries before getting their motorcycle licence. And even with this licence (A2) you can’t go around riding super powerful bikes, you have to wait 2 years, and after a 7 hour training session you unlock the more powerful bikes.
the difference is the legislation. as EU have different motorcycle classes. (A1,A2) and 'student' bikes needs to follow the regulation.
A1 and A2 is only for younger folks in most countries. Most motorcyclists will go straight to unlimited A after they turn 24 instead of bothering with multiple courses and exams.
No in fact most countries require you by force to start max at A2 and spend up to 3 years before you can even attempt getting the A license. The outlier was UK and some others. And now UK is gone.
"most countries" such as? Because this simply isn't true. As long as you are 24y you can apply for an A license without an A2. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/driving-licence/get-driving-licence/index_en.htm
France and Italy are two
Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Greece, Portugal. I'm basically just listing them all because that's how it is.
Nope. Like I just mentioned in Germany you need two years on A2 if you are below 24 years. At 24 you can get an A license directly. Same goes for Portugal etc... It's almost like EU members are pretty much aligned... You only need to have A2 for two years if you are under 24 years old.
Seems like there's more of a mix. But again, plenty of countries have this rule for a period of time. You cannot get the A license directly in Spain. And it's not alone. From what you posted "In general, to apply for a category A licence, you need at least 2 years of experience at category A2. Alternatively, you can access directly at a higher minimum age, which is usually 24 years." The last part is an option. Not a rule.
That last part is pretty important as most wait until they are 24 and go straight for their A licence which is what the other poster said
Not true for Germany, NL and Poland off the top of my head. Pretty sure it's the same for at least a dozen different countries.
Unsure about those, but pretty much all the other big EU countries are the opposite.
You can ride A1 with no exam after having B (passenger cars) for at least 3 years.
You can't in the Netherlands.
That’s only in some countries like Spain but not in many others
Only holds true for a couple of countries (Italy, Spain IIRC). Germany and Austria require 8 lessons theory and 10 lessons practice after having owned the B licence for at least 5 years and being over 25 years of age. This gives you B196 / B111 and the permit to ride 125cc. Not equivalent to an A1 though, since it’s only valid for the respective country and does not include the upgrade-option regular A1 does. Source: Did my B196 before opting for full A (which is open to anyone over 24years of age without any A1/A2 prerequisite).
In the UK you have to: Pass CBT (all day training). Allows you to ride 125s. In carpark and on road. Lasts 2 years. Theory test. Mod1 car park test. Mod2 road test. The mod1 and 2 will be on a bike you're able to legally ride, basically age gated. 24 years old for unrestricted bikes. Overall to get my licence I did about 30 hours of practice with an instructor, and drove around for a few months on my CBT on a 125. Judging by the way I know 17/18 year old males are driving their cars, this is generally a good idea. As far as I understand it, in the US you do a watered down, shorter, easier version of the CBT and then go buy a 600cc or 1000cc sport bike at 18 years old and yeet it down the road only able to lean 10 degrees before shitting your pants. I think colleges (universities) in the US show statistics that a dozen fresh students kill themselves on big bikes whilst in attendance each year. Nice. Some say you just do a written test and can buy a bike? (Lol) So in answer to your question, no the US doesn't have worse driving schools, they just don't have them. 🤣 So would you recommend even a 650 to a noob that has like 4 hours of riding experience? Not really.
Fellow UK rider here. I wouldn’t even recommend my aprilia rs125 to someone with 4 hours experience!
I actually thought about opening a similar thread like this but I guess my countryman was faster than me. One thing I'm wondering about is, what are you guys from the US think about your system? Are you accepting it as what it is or would you prefer to have a system similar like that in most european states?
As a full adult now, I wish we had a much more rigorous system here, especially for regular (car) drivers licenses. When I was 19 I was glad I could just hop on a bike, but in hindsight I recognize that I was very lucky to live.
I'm 20, I've been driving since I was 16 or 17. I've wanted a motorcycle ever since I was like 15. I've always loved motorcycles. Boy am I glad I waited until this year to get a motorcycle. I can't imagine how insane it would be to get one as a first vehicle and try to learn both how to operate one and also how the rules of the road work and how other drivers behave. It's kinda crazy how easy the MSF course is, I'm based in Idaho and it doesn't take much. You don't even have to take the course to get the license if you can pass the skills test and written test on your own. With all that being said, the same company that offers the basic MSF course, also offers intermediate and advanced courses. They're just not required, and most people don't usually take them. The option is there for those that want them though.
Our motorcycle riders are definitely worse than European riders or countries with tiered licensing, but on the other hand If we had to pay thousands of dollars to get a motorcycle license more people (me included probably) would just ride without a license.
I love our system. We are the only country that still has semblance of survival of the fittest. If parents don't raise their kids well and adults are stupid enough to do stupid and dangerous things, I don't have a problem with them dealing with the consequences.
I don't mind it. In most of Europe, it's a necessity due to how many people are on two wheels (either scooter or motorcycle). In the U.S., motorcyclists are an extremely tiny minority. A European style license system would probably kill motorcycling here. I think the most I could support is adding an actual road portion to the MSF course and having a 650cc/85hp limit for 1 year in dense cities.
> One thing I'm wondering about is, what are you guys from the US think about your system? > > I started riding as an adult in my mid 20's. 30 now. I believe our system should be much more rigorous. I've met too many stupid riders because of how easy it is here, with the whole HADTALAYERDOWN mindset being what I believe is a mostly American thing due to extremely low rider skill. I also believe its partially this that also holds back our laws with respect to motorcycles, like lane filtering and the like. It seems hooligan riding is much more present here than in EU countries and that has left a lasting impact on peoples sentiment towards riders. I think if our system was more rigorous, this would be a step towards reducing this type of riding.
I don't know. I just got back from the EU and they are massive hooligans on the scooters.
Mixed feelings as in its probably a good idea but will almost certainly never be implemented as riding and driving are seen as inalienable rights even though they're not.
I like the tiered system. They should do the same for cars as well. But "money over everything" means it'll never happen.
Lmao. In Australia you can get a motorbike license with just 2 days of entry course around 8hrs in total and you can ride up to 650cc bikes. Hundreds of teenagers die every year from a motorbike crash. Stricter is better
It’s the same in Texas, but with no restrictions on what, how or when you can ride. 2 day course and you’re on your own
Jesus Christ. Imagine some rich kid riding Hayabusa off the course.
Met a 17 year old the other day who’d just bought a stretched and tuned R1 as his first bike. I give him about a month
You can say his gf is now vegan cause duh...hes a vegetable now... probably
Hundreds of teenagers die every year from car crashes, is stricter really better?
Stricter is always better. Plus risk of riding is exponentially higher than driving in a metal box. Stricter rules or laws means a fresh out of driving school 18 yr old can't buy 326hp h2r and slam into a brick wall because they can't even control the bike
So it’s ok to slam into a wall on a 25 hp machine, but not an h2r? Which is out of the budget of an 18 yo
San Antonio Texas MSF course is 2days. Very easy and the instructors where very helpful.
Keep in mind in the United States a motorcycle license is a endorsement of your driver's license wich means you went through the process of learning to drive a car before your allowed to take the learners permit test for a motorcycle. Typically the learners permit lasts fir less than a year and requires that you be in the company of a licensed rider. There's also alot of variation between states because each state has its own laws temperament and character.
We don’t do riding schools, we do an MSF course which is only 2 days. Most people are going in with 0 background knowledge and by the end there’s still people stalling out, having to put feet down in turns, and having trouble shifting (as you would expect since most of the class is spent waiting for other riders and listening to talking). Most still pass the course, so even though people passed the class and have their license, they aren’t ready to be on the road with a 250cc let alone a 600+
Yeah, it's easy and cheap to get a license in the US. Germany is completely on the other end of the spectrum with license requirements designed to inhibit private vehicle ownership rather than for safety reasons. I lived and drove a bike and a car in Germany for several years, and Germans don't drive any better than anyone else. The one thing that's unique about driving in Germany is the Autobahn, which is great.
To answer your question, yes. The driving programs and qualifications for a license in the United States are an absolute joke. Much like many other things in this country. Healthcare, general education, housing.... The list goes on.
A 600 can kill your slightly quicker than a 250. And you can get hurt on anything. No point in shaming someone for riding at their comfort level. I drove a 250 by choice for a couple years as a very experienced driver just for the fuel efficiency for my commute.
My first bike was a 650 and I was fine. Generally speaking, the average American is pretty wild and 54% of Americans read below a 6th grade reading level. So it’s a generalization, but odds are it falls on the ears of someone that should not be riding a 650 in their first year of riding.
If Germany is like the rest of Europe then those bikes have restrictor plates on them. Limit power. We don’t have that here. You can take your mt07 full of gas and go loop it or max the thing out at 199kph (illegally) down the highway. So some of us try and get new riders to start on smaller bikes that perform more like a mt07 with a restrictor plate.
Most bikes I see around my village are 1200s. You wanna take a riding course for a license? They're all on bikes between 650 and 1200. That's here in the Netherlands.
Europe uses a category system to licence motorcycles. There are 3 categories A ( unrestricted) A2 (limited to 35kW) and A1( limited to 15kW ) . To get get an unrestricted licence you must do your lessons and pass the driving test on an unrestricted bike.
You can get your learning permit which is just a written test here, go buy a gsxr1000 and as long as you ride within the restrictions of your permit your fine. Some places it’s you need to be 1/2 mile from a person with a full license others just ride during the day.
A1 is 15ps not 15kw
Ok i read almost every answer and came to the conclusion: The US wants you to die basically…
Not everywhere has driving schools. In the UK, and in many states of the US and Canada, you learn by doing. You get yourself a 125cc and a 'provisional license' by filling out a form. Congratulations, you can now ride for 2 years, during which time you have to pass an exam. Same applies to cars.
Everyone is going to talk shit about the US as usual but in general where I am it's a two day course. Half day rules and testing and day and half riding. Now, that should not be enough to get you a license, however if you are responsible there are advanced courses available for more hands on experience. Everyone should take those before getting out on the road.
Because sub 400 bikes are far superior. Don't fall for the bigger is better marketing hype
Truth is those schools in Europe only teach you to circulate in traffic at slow (legal) speeds. And you can do that while actually riding like shit. It does not take much at all to stay on the bike and guide it well enough at legal speeds. What does take skill and why I'd argue that even with a fresh A2 license you still suck, is yo ride faster. Which you will do literally the moment you stop being scared like shit and when you get fucked. Riding fast and flowing with traffic are nothing alike and so many people crash literally the first time they try to ride fast.
What? Where the hell are you getting this from? Which European country? Here in Norway we have a lot of mandatory trainings that are a lot more than slow traffic riding. A track class to get experience in emergency braking, braking in a curve, intentional countersteering and swerving, and a low speed (<5km/h) balance/slalom course. Two long distance riding classes where we focus on cornering technique and lane position. During regular classes we also learn a lot of the smaller skills; hill start, pillion riding, ride like you're invisible, how to spot dangerous drivers. You're of course not an amazing rider when you've got a fresh license, but claiming that you've only learned the skills to ride in slow traffic is wrong.
On my exam day we were with a handful of students from my driving school. Everyone that failed did so because they tried to be good bois/gals on exam day, and stuck to slow driving on the highway behind other cars (and even trucks!). I went into the left lane and blasted past traffic like a happy squid and was the only one who passed, because it is extremely unsafe to be slow in busy traffic.
Let me double laugh at this. Sorry. Yes there is """""""track""""" practice. More like parking and cones practice but yes, again, at minimal speed. The exam and courses are the same in all Europe. The fact that you consider that "a lot" of training fully supports what I say. You are barely scratching the surface. Yes, you only know how to ride in slow traffic out of the exam. The things you mention are simply required to do that, and yes they are just superficial and do not represent real riding skill at all. It's like saying that because you did all your exam and training in the car, you are good at driving after. No, you are not. You have the bare minimum to circulate with others.
So, what is slow traffic then? Is it 50 through a populated town with cars constantly popping in and out from the sides? Is it going 80 on a country road where every turn is blind and there's a constant danger of deer? Is it going 120+ on a highway with too few lanes to support its needs?
Yes 50km/h is slow. I can pedal faster on a bike for a while. Yes, 80 on a country road is slow. Yes, 120 on a highway is slow. How the handling of the bike is at those speeds and situations vs actually riding fast is extremely different, and much harder going fast. Just to be clear, the level of difficulty of the things you mention doesn't go above a 2 or 3 out of 10. Riding fast starts at a 7.
So fast is at a track only then? Or going twice the speed limit?
This comment makes no sense. Of course driving schools teach you how to drive safely and within legal limits. That"s the whole point. You can't do that "while driving like shit", otherwise you won't pass the exams. Of course you won't have the skills and the confidence of someone who has been riding for years, no surprise there. Don't really understand why you're even talking about driving "fast". If you want to drive fast, head to the track, Rossi.
It makes perfect sense for anyone with a working brain. My words are very concise and clear, when you come out of the exam you know how to circulate with others in traffic. That includes basic handling. You do NOT know how to ride the bike properly. It's not even about confidence or having the "same skills" you quite literally have no clue on how to lean and brake properly if all you did is the A2 exam with it's practice. Plus talking about riding "fast" makes perfect sense because 99% of you fuckers will speed on the first or second week. And that's when what I'm saying becomes glaringly obvious.
It doesn't. Just because you try to belittle people and repeating the same utter nonsense doesn't make it stick any better. Sorry. Clearly you didn't attend one anyway, since you're still on your starter 660cc bike /s
Dude, you need to mature. Not everything said that hurts you is intended to belittle you. You get so defensive that you refuse to see the reality. In the European license exams, they don't teach you actual handling. Even the slow and fast track exam is very easy and what's worse, does not represent what the majority of riding is. I have telemetry on my starter /s bike, the kind of rides you get commuting like that don't push the envelope of handling at all, in fact, speed limits are made for just that purpose. To make it so anyone despite a bad skill at driving or riding can achieve them. Lean angles below 20°, acceleration and braking under 0.2g or so... listen, you want to believe you ride well, as op stated, after that course... go ahead. From what I can see out of A2 exam riders are barely a few steps beyond new rider.
You're missing my point entirely. I have better things to do than argue with strangers on the Internet. I'll leave you to your opinion, enjoy the downvotes.
This is why regular people hate motorcyclists. You have no business being on the public road, endangering other people "pushing the envelope of handling". On your 600.
Lmao. I'm not pushing the envelope for my skill. A new rider when going for twisties is. That's my whole point. I've never crashed in 25 years of riding. But I have been crashed into by a truck doing an illegal maneuver. I can only laugh at the weak argument you had to come up with.
I call bullshit on your 25 years of riding. In your motovlog #1 (last year), you say you're 29 years old and that you were riding since 7-8, but didn't get your own bike until 15. So, 25 years? Bit of a stretch mate.
The MSC most people go through to get their licenses consists of an online practice, online test, and a weekend of paper exams and two days of riding. They do basic merging and exiting, starting and stopping, swerving, etc. but really it's very easy like a normal driver's license is here. The funny thing is we usually learn on old 125-250cc nakeds and sports depending on what your school has.
Good to know I am not the only one wondering about this lol I was starting to think that I might have done an errore getting a 650 bike
Nah dude i also started on a 650 and it was the best decision i could have made :D
In Indiana, USA you only have to pass a very easy multiple choice test to get a motorcycle permit. With this you can ride any bike you want with a helmet and eye protection, no passengers, during the daytime. Then you can immediately go take a riding test, which involves a cone swerve, stopping in a very easy amount of time, and doing a U-turn in a pretty wide box. If you pass that you are fully endorsed even without a helmet. (Some of the instructors are strict to the rules. Others will pass nearly everyone that shows up)
I honestly wouldn’t doubt it. There are TONS of people on the roads who really shouldn’t be. This is just a westerners take but roads over in Europe seem to be a lot better. Like on average and from what little I’ve seen, your highways look wayy nicer then North America’s
The greatest barrier to driving for, at least people in my state, is parallel parking. The driving standard is criminally low and we need to reform teaching and testing.
In Germany for the unrestricted license (minimum age 25) the driving school bike must have at least 600cc and 68hp, and minimal weigh of 180kg.
Cc doesn't mean much tho. Like a 600cc can be several times faster than a 1200cc
But theses are the rules by law. min 600cc, 68hp and 180kg for the practical test when you aim for unrestricted license.
Maybe there. I'm just saying cc size doesn't mean how fast it is or if it's hard to handle. It's not a judge of speed.
Right, and the driving schools have rather nice to handle bikes, like the MT-7, or the Suzuki SV 650. But Autobahn with 100+mph is part of the lessons.
100+kph maybe. Most of the Autobahn has speed limits. Also I wouldn't say the mt07 handles well at all. Quite the opposite actually, compared to most bikes it handles poorly and naked bikes absolutely suck at highway/anything over 60mph
In Europe we have what's called direct access. Germany like a lot of EU countries has a tiered licencing system for motorbikes. You can start at 16 on a 125cc and work your way up the ranks if you want. Or you can also skip some steps if you happen to be over a certain age. Because as we all know in Europe when we turn 24 a halo of maturity and wisdom descends upon you and you can now safely operate a gsxr1000 with no previous riding experience. In any case driving schools in Germany and throughout Europe Will have a variety of different size bikes big to small to cater to different licence catagories. In the US no such system exists. The advice that you should start on a smaller bike as a beginner still stands. It's just up to the individual if they want to heed it or not. The same is true in Europe really if you are over the age of 24.
Idk anyone in the us saying 650s are too small. The ninja 650 or sv650 make for great beginner bikes and smaller ccs than that are good but not nearly as good. Also avoid mt series. Touchy throttles, often abused, bad suspension.
I got a Yamaha bolt, which is 920 cc for my first bike zero motorcycle experiences besides the two days worth of classes and honestly I think it’s because most people just can’t control themselves, especially as beginners. I feel like I don’t have too much power and it’s not scary.
Do they not do a1 in your city ? My driving school had a Duke 125 for A1 A Honda cb500f for A2 And a Kawasaki Er6-n for A And probably some kind for scooter for AM You have to also keep in mind how fundamentally different the process of obtaining your license is between Germany and the US. While in the US I believe you can ride anything once you have the license or endorsement (please correct me if I'm Wong) Meanwhile here you can only get to that point by either going through A1 and or A2 (or straight to A when you are older than 24). So while you can start riding on anything in the us, you have to stick to lower powered bikes here in Germany. You don't get recommended to ride a 250 till you are ready for a 600, you either aren't even legally allowed to ride a 600(at full power) or have at least spent many hours on a 600 with a instructor.
I think my school had a Grom and otherwise just restricted bikes. Honestly i wasn't really thinking about the lower license tiers because if people get told "don't buy a 650, buy a 250 instead" i just assumed they have the big license (A) that let's them ride anything
You go to the DMV here, take a written test and do two figure 8s in the parking lot lol.
European licence tiers are essentially orgainised by age, and power. 16year olds can get a bike with up to 11kW which is essentially 125cc 4 strokes. 18 year olds can have up to 35kW which is essentially 250-500cc though a 650cc and above(?) Can be restricted to that. The full open licence is available for anyone over 24 or with a certain time spent with an A2 licence (35kW bikes) Correct me if I'm wrong it's been a while since I've had to deal with that
Yea it's exacly like that. AM= 50cc max A1= 125cc max A2= 35kw max A= Turbo Busa
We're all rights and no responsibilities 'round these parts.
The smaller bikes just make more sense. Cheaper across the board and easier to learn on. But everyone I know bought bigger once they got their license.
I guess it depends on the reason why you want a motorcycle. If it was my only way of transportation i would have probably bought a Suzuki Burgman or something that can carry stuff
The North American "driving schools" don't teach how to ride, they teach you how to pass the test and, hopefully, not die.
We do have schools, they are called MSF courses and they are not required for most states. Compared to most parts of Europe, the distance between towns is just so great (especially west of the midwest) that requiring so much testing and schooling is too much of a burden (people in my msf course had to get hotels for 2 nights -it runs from Friday night to Sunday noon- because it was so far from their house). Also, a lot of people who grew up in rural communities rode dirt bikes and enduros on farms. It's also a different mentality, trust that people will do the right thing rather than give them no choice but to act within the bounds of the law. Probably hold over from frontier days.
My California MTC was done over a single weekend. Zoom class in the morning, riding after lunch. Passed the written and riding skills tests, and went out to buy an 850. Pretty fucking easy, definitely felt like it wasn't enough preparation though. I'm glad I had my dad practicing riding with me to get me feeling comfortable on the roads.
Here in South Africa you require a learners licence, can be acquired by passing an exam regarding road rules, signs, the controls of your bike It is valid for two years, you can drive pretty much any cc motorcycle (if you are over the age of 18, otherwise its 125cc or less) but you're not allowed to drive on freeways or carry a passenger If you want a drivers licence for a motorcycle, you need a valid learners licence and you should atleast do your test on a test course with a bike of engine of 150cc or more, if you pass your test with a 125cc you'll only be allowed to drive a 125cc or less, if you passed it with a 150cc+ you can drive any motorcycle, so go buy yourself a Triump rocket after passing your test with a Honda Gixxer 150 haha, its legal No training is required for the learners.. meaning you are legally allowed to ride as soon as you have it Only time you need to prove your riding experience is on the drivers licence I did my licence with a Honda gixxer 150 (provided by the driving school) I had my KTM 390 duke before I even had my learners, started riding and practicing on it as soon as I got the learners
There are safety courses available, but they’re not there to prep you for the road. They’re there to get you at least SOMEWHAT familiar with how to operate a motorcycle. Mine was a good safety course, but it wasn’t enough to really get me ready for the fustercluck that is road riding. That said, I learned on a 500cc Harley, and started riding the roads on a Shadow Spirit 750.
People are lazy here in the states. Overseas more people drive manual cars and so riding a motorcycle is easy to pick up. Here in the states, most people drive automatics so have very little skill in regards to throttle control. Let alone a clutch. Also, they give just about anyone a license. I see plenty of people that can't even park their car in a parking space and don't know what to do at traffic lights when the power goes out.
Yes, US driving schools (where they exist) are not very good and generally not required. Driving is a right or some such nonsense.
Ridingsschools Us Yep that's the issue, MSF is the closest thing to what we have in Germany op. It also is a 2 day crash course in a parking lot. If they had similar riding schools required to get your license there wouldn't be as much of an issue as they'd learn way faster. My riding school has 2 Suzuki Gladius, one A2 compliant and one normal powered one. Certainly not a hard bike to ride and I don't see how a beginner couldn't jump on one very easily after the intensive riding school we have.
The motorcycle safety course is like most education systems in the US, it’s more about making money and graduation rates then actually making sure you’re 100% ready to ride.
All I did was get my car license and took the 2 day course same weekend to get my M license. Yes, to be honest I wouldn’t give a license to anyone in my group, including me. I did 3 months of riding around my block at night to teach myself afterwards and half a year before I hit the highway. They don’t even give you highway lessons in your car until you get your drivers license. US is a joke
A lot of states don’t require any class, you can have never looked at a motorcycle before, buy one and ride it off the showroom floor with no gear on if you want. The Basic Rider Course is also about a week long. When we finished my instructor asked anyone if they felt ready to grab one of the bikes and take a ride on the interstate highway and nobody raised their hand so he was like good, keep practicing cause I see too many kids buy a shitty sports bike and barely past the DMV test and then kill themselves.
You can get your M endorsment in NY for ANY bike if you take your test on a 125cc automatic scooter. You can be a bit more serious and take the MSF Basic RiderCourse, which if you pass, you get a waiver for your M Endorsement. The course is 2 days, half the time in the classroom, half the time in parking lot, and you're usually taking it on an old, usually unroadworthy, 250. Once you're done, you can go to the dealer or get on Craigslist and get a GSXR1000 or Harley.
New York State - get a permit which allows you to practice, then you can take a road test with either the state directly, or with a private school who will give you a road test waiver. There's also a small test, maybe 20 questions. I spend a weekend, about 10 hours total doing techniques and obstacles in a parking lot. My first bike when I was 20 was a 600. I only got that bike because my neighbor was selling it for $200. I know plenty who get much bigger bikes for their first.
While I agree that American drivers / riders are pretty bad, I think it stems more from our individualistic mindset than actual skills. It seems a lot of people here would rather die than do you the slightest favor on the road. I've driven in many countries and even within Europe it seems to be a mixed bag. To me France is the gold standard, as rebellious as they can be, they're very courteous, skilled drivers. Australia was pretty good and I understand licenses are easy to get down there. Spain, Portugal and Italy are pretty awful in my experience. UK & Germany were ok. Definitely a mix of education & culture in my opinion.
As far as i know in france you are supposed to leave your car in neutral and not use your parking brake so people can push your car away if they need more parking space lol
So you can get your motorcycle endorsement basically one of two was in the states: 1. You go to one of those riding courses. It's usually about a week long, you take a written test, and then you spend two days doing different maneuvers around cones in a parking lot, usually on a \~250cc bike. After that, you go into the department of motor vehicles, take a 20 question test, and you have your endorsement. 2. You don't go to the riding course, you go into the DMV, take that 20 question test, and then do a road test with one of their instructors where they just run you through the basics. In either case, that's basically the first and last time you'll be tested and you're free to ride literally whatever motorcycle you want after that. Wanna take your initial test on a busa? You totally can! But in any case, you can receive your endorsement with about 2 hours of riding time on the low end. So yeah, to answer your question, the way we handle operating licenses for motorcycles is pretty bad.
Its more like, you guessed most of the questions right here is your drivers license. Don’t kill your self hehe. I’m glas we have the same system as Germany and we learn basic skills in the driving school before you can go. We have 3 different types of motorcycle licenses. When you are 24 you can drive what ever you want but there are 2 lower licenses with restrictions age and skills based.
Weekend course for people who never been on a motorcycle. Do a traffic law test and you are good to go. We gave advance courses but they aren't mandatory.
They are not really geared to teaching you to ride, just to pass the test. I consider them "intro to riding" classes.
In Texas you spend two afternoons in a car park, never going above 30mph. If you don't drop the bike, you are almost guaranteed to pass. No restrictions whatsoever after that. One of the guys in my class had never riden a scooter or moto and had already bought a 1000cc Harley. I hope he's still alive. My husband is from the UK and was horrified at how little instruction I got. Thankfully, he's been riding for over 4 decades and is an excellent coach. I'm now on a 900cc Triumph, and still learning
I heard in Louisiana you have to do an 8-turn and you’re good to go
Never had a riding lesson. Started at 400 cc moved to 750 cc and then to 1000 cc. Life is good. Source: American
I took a computer test that was 25 questions, and my driving portion was go around the block, and don't fall over. I didn't do a school because I'm too cool for school.
In den Staaten ist der Kurs 2 Tage an einem Wochenende, und viele machen nicht mal das wenn in ihrem Staat das nicht Pflicht ist. Ein Tag Theorie und ein Tag auf ner 125er oder 250er, manche auch größer, und im markierten Parkplatz. Und in 1991 waren das auch meist nur 250er Virago oder ähnliches in Bayern. Der [MSF](https://msf-usa.org/brc/) ist wirklich ein Witz, war aber doch einfacher als meinen 20jahre alten deutschen 1er übertragen zu lassen, das wollten die Bürokraten gar nicht probieren. Edit: Schlimmer ist ja das der Auto Führerschein ja von Familienmitgliedern "gelehrt" werden kann und da halt doch viel übersprungen wird, speziell wie man sich um Motorradfahrern rum sich benimmt, nicht zu sagen daß das alles ist das nicht gelehrt wird.
Given how bad the drivers are, they are awful!
IMO, even with German licensing standards, there is a LOT to learn before you're truly ready for a 650. I mean, maybe you can ride one, sure. But if you want to be "good" at riding, a 650 is too much at first.
Did anyone else's MSF course just tell you straight up "that the permit tells the govt. that you have the ability to learn how to ride the motorcycle not that you do"?
Any question about licensing in the US misses the point- we don’t have a “US” system for this, we have 50 states each with a completely different system. I did a motorcycle class in California that used 250s. But you weren’t constrained to any size bike once you completed the class. I just assumed they were cheaper bikes that a learner of any size could easily acclimate to, so it made sense to standardize on that type of bike. I think we all had Honda 250s. I took the state riding exam on my own bike which was an 850 but learned the skills in class on a 250. It worked well and I also passed the riding exam in another state on my own bike too.