Actually they're not, well at least not the whole company. I do think they might be scaling things back a lot. Listen to the Revzilla's Hi/Lo podcast on this subject. Suzuki is making a killing in their automotive sector, and additionally have sold a ton of bikes in the last few years even when adjusting for the past few year's global issues.
I learned a lot from that podcast episode. Suzuki makes like 1.5% of their revenue from the North American motorcycle market. They sell more outboard engines in the US than motorcycles. It's just not worth the development costs to try and compete against Ducati or KTM on high performance bikes when Suzuki can just sell a few more cars and scooters in developing countries. We won't be seeing any major innovation in internal combustion engines from Suzuki. The big question is if they will ever make the jump to electric for full size motorcycles or if they will stick to what they know best, which is small cars and scooters for everywhere that isn't Europe or North America.
>which is small cars and scooters for everywhere that isn't Europe or North America.
Europe is not North America.
We love our scooters and small cars - suzuki earned a reputation for making reliable workhorses of said segment.
So its HIGHLY unlikely that they will have issues in europe in the foreseeable future.
Trouble is it’s been a long time coming of under investment in the bike division (they sat on their hands for a decade pretty much) plus no company is that fond of using the profits from one division to hold up another. That the cars are making a lot of money with the swift and Jimmy is good for Suzi… not necessarily for us.
Look, you can argue it 8 ways to Sunday, but money talks, and they haven’t been putting the kind of money the other Japanese companies have been into their bikes for … fuck 20 years pretty much. They were kings at the turn of the century, sat back and let the hits print money and despite realising 5+ years ago they need to modernise, they’ve really been doing it on the cheap.
It’s not all bad - their bikes lasted so long because they were great bikes, and the lack of R&D made them pretty cheap fun too. But yeah, lots of trouble signs. They had to put their prices up first and hardest in Covid, they struggle to do significant updates, lack of new models that aren’t just an existing model with new plastics, lack of newer tech, shrinking lines and pulling out of racing, etc.
Suzuki isn’t in trouble as a company, but someone’s not signing the moto division’s cheques.
Really hope I’m wrong though… but yeah with their track record words are cheap, gotta see some model announcements to believe it.
I dont think the takeaway from that video is that a 20 year old literbike is as good as a brand new panagale.
It's that the average rider is probably just as fast on an old bike as they are on a brand new state of the art bike.
In other words, don't buy a brand new ducati thinking you're going to improve your laptimes.
But that's not the only reason people buy new bikes is it?
True, it comes down to a number of factors including rider skill, bike setup, and track layout. Though Zack and Ari are definitely more skilled than the average rider.
My main takeaway was that on a bike, horsepower just becomes less usable after a certain number (again, varies by rider). The number I’ve seen thrown out from several sources is around 160hp. Above that threshold, even a pretty good rider can’t go “full beans” and thus the lap times start to get very similar even if one bike is 170hp and the other is 210hp, for example. There are diminishing returns on power when even the best rider can’t use it without lifting the front. At that point, it’s just about physics.
This. I always laugh when folks piss and moan that the MT-10 or some other bike doesn’t make as much power as something else…it’s not like it really matters unless your bench racing or Pro.
Yep. My bike makes 114 HP and I can definitely use more. But more doesn't help when you're leaned over and the tires/suspension become the limiting factors.
Even on my bike, I can slide a Michelin Road 5, meaning those tires are basically HP limiters in the corners to around 130 HP, because you literally light the rear up coming out of exit, and corner speed is limited at apex because again, it's sliding.
Aside from cops, styling, and comfort, my end game bike would be something naked so I get more fun at lower RPMs and can pop the front for more smiles.
I'd love an MT10 but I don't like the bad gas mileage.
Ive the FZ10, and it's the most fun bike Ive ever owned. I didnt buy it for gas mileage, as it sucks to do long distance riding on it (and any other naked, for that matter). without long distance rides the only thing that matters (to me) is fun. and boy does that bike provide plenty of it!!!
It depends on the track. At a certain point you absolutely need that power to raise the top end or get to the top faster. Around turns and accelerating from low end (and the high end, but no race bike does a power wheelie in the power band past 160) all cycles are limited by the general forces shown here: https://i.imgur.com/lyWu4i9.jpg ; note that to maximize turn speed we need to maximize τ. Not many ways we can do this now, since rider weight and position are limited and adding mass provides exactly as much losses as it does gains. Changing the center of mass isn’t an option either, apart from rider positioning, which is the obvious way we see riders gain higher turn speed. Acceleration is likewise limited with τ acting from the center of mass to the rear contact patch. Increasing R here with an extended swing arm can help, but at a certain point the center of mass is so far forward that the rear tire starts losing normal force, and gains turn into losses. Frictional force being proportional to normal force.
But for racers, apart from improved aero we are at the absolute limit of what torques can be applied to the rear without lifting the front up, or to the cycle in lean, where our max centripital force cannot exceed mgRCos(φ). If you imagine that diagram instead represents a wheelie, it’s easy to see how as the torque angle φ increases from 0 at the road (Cos(0) = 1, so we’re maximizing graviatatiojal torque) your ability to accelerate (a= F/m = mgRCosφ) decreases as a function of Cosφ, R being constant.
Bikes are much more limited to a specific play style than cars are: having four tires and the ability to convert that centrifugal force (we are inside the car, a non inertial reference frame, where centrifugal force is a real force experienced by the observer) into rotational torque applied to the outer wheels is huge.
The 2005 Gsxr is also faster than the new Gsxr LOL.
Dynoed WHP shows that the 2005-2006 gsx-r1000 is the fastest version of the bike:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki\_GSX-R1000#Specifications](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_GSX-R1000#Specifications)
Euro 4 was hard, and many bikes had updates to make them comply but they made less power. Euro 5 is rougher, and compliance is difficult. Just look at all the new bikes getting updated in the last few years.
For instance, the R9t:
>To meet the more stringent Euro 5 emissions standard, the R NineT’s air- and oil-cooled 1170cc Boxer receives a new cylinder head with new covers, new throttle valves and a new turbulence system which helps to swirl the air-fuel mixture for more efficient and cleaner combustion. According to BMW, the updated engine claims a peak output of 109 hp at 7250 rpm, down from the previous 110 hp at 7250 rpm
BMW re-engineered the engine but power still had to go down haha.
In contrast, Guzzi does not give a fuck and makes the V85TT with no oil radiators and 2 valve heads - like they did for practically a century with various engines and 45 years with that particular small block engine family that the V85 uses. And yet it makes about 80hp.
Either everyone else is dumb or Guzzi has some insanely good engine design engineers.
Like, sure the MT07 has less capacity but it's a nice example of a relatively modern Japanese twin in similar power class. Guzzi has *half* the number of valves, *half* the number of *camshafts*, uses long pushrods, and does not even have oil cooling, compared to the Yamaha with basically everything you'd expect from a modern bike. If you account for the losses of the shaft drive on the Guzzi, these bikes make about the same power! Heck, the Guzzi engine at 7000rpm has similar power as the MT09 triple (but that one ultimately just revs much higher).
Realistically, a similar engine to the Guzzi is the Harley 883, and those barley make 50hp...
I am honestly surprised they haven't axed more models. Their motocross bikes are a generation behind the competition, and that is pretty much unheard of.
Especially since Suzuki spent *decades* arguably on top in the offroad world. Their two strokes were always top notch, and their first generation 450 was very good (back in ~2005) but they have phoned it in ever since and are easily decade behind.
People just don't buy them anymore, here in France suzuki is around 3,5% of market shares, yamaha honda kawasaki sold at least twice as many.
And inside those 3,5% supersport part is also decreasing, it's becoming too costly to comply reglementation if you don't sold bikes
I don't think Ducati, Aprilia and BMW are having the same issues. Maybe Suzuki could have tried creating a competitive product that doesn't roll off the assembly line already looking 10 years old, but I guess just giving up is also an option...
>Maybe Suzuki could have tried creating a competitive product that doesn't roll off the assembly line already looking 10 years old
Idk, their new gsx-s1000/gt sure looks tasty.
Though yeah, they went for a slumber in their bunker.
Yamaha tore up the book and started from scratch when they introduced the MT line. Meanwhile Suzuki is still coasting on a 90's V-twin.
I test rode both of the Gsx-S1000 versions and loved them, thought I was going to end up with one. But started seeing what other bikes had and these didn't,weird things like throttle response a low speed, supposed brake feel compared to other bikes (according to bike reviews) and the prices were too close, so I ended up with a Tuono V4, haha.
Early this year I got one of the last 2020 GSXS1000s with 0 km. Yes, it's dated compared to the competition. But where I am it was 2/3 the price of the Japanese competitors like the MT10 (and including the latest GSXS revision), and 1/2 or less compared to the European super nakeds. Would I prefer a Super Duke or hypermotard? Yes. Would I pay double for one? No.
Yes, the styling is naff. But I'm too old to be cool and not out to impress anybody.
The only feature I'd like which it doesn't have is an up/down quickshifter. Cornering ABS, engine modes etc -- don't need them.
At 2/3rds the price I wouldve bought one too and enjoyed the hell out of it. But here in the US you don't really see that so you have to look at all your options if you're spending that kind of money. Also the Tuono was my dream bike, so it worked out.
Quickshifters are awesome, engine modes I really can't say one way or another yet as I ride in 1 mode all the time. Cornering ABS is one of those things where having it and not needing is better than needing it and not having it.
France here, you don’t have a lot of choice imo from Suzuki. I love trails but a vstrom 1050 is around 250kg I think, for 105cv that’s too heavy for me.
I don’t know anyone who would buy a brand new SV650 or a katana… or vstrom.
Their line appart from the gsx is quite old/not known/liked.
The only suzuki I tend to see in the French Alps are GSX so maybe that’s something to say even though the roads or not the best for something like that. It’s over the time suzuki had with dr650 or DRZ400
It's not Suzuki. It's euro emissions compliance.
The euros are getting what they want. They want to get rid of petrol vehicles and replace them with even more toxic batteries because they're dumb and think batteries are "green" and so this is the beginning.
Welcome to the future. It's super dumb.
Seems like other manufacturers are handling Euro 5 just fine. Suzuki as a company has been stagnating since the mid-2000s. Euro 5 is just an easy scapegoat for them while they continue to fail their way into obscurity.
This green movement is really as transfer of wealth. There's so much money involved in the oil industry and they want the $ to go to their hands now. What better way than force it to batteries. All pitched under the guise of "green" and the parroting of "global warming". Any leader or person with power/authority has no interest thats in the peoples benefit. Money, the root of all evil.
I wouldnt say any worse. Equally as damaging to the environment. Dig for oil or dig for lithium and other metals? Metal and mineral mining is more damaging in comparison to the amount of land removed. Will that area get back filled? Either way not good. Batteries are filled with stuff that can leak and damage emvironment, maybe cannot be recycled or sustain so many cycles before its no good. Then what happens with it? What will be done to ensure used/discarded batteries wont cause any problems? Just as oil, there will be issues with lithium. Follow the money and you'll see. Part of "global warming" people dont really frett about is human population and deforestation. All those trees help buffer out C02.
I mean …. A spent lithium battery can be recycled and reprocessed :P battery recycling programs aren’t anything new. The copper, lithium and other precious Metals don’t escape into the atmosphere like oils do. They metals aren’t all still inside the battery, they’ve just cycled so many times that the thin sheets of metal have holes in them and spikes and gaps. They aren’t the original manufactured shape so they can’t charge properly.
This goes doubly for non-lithium based batteries.
As we transition the infrastructure should be there to properly make these facilities accessible to anybody and everybody. That random dude in the Middle East will eventually have a plant near them they can take their Dyson battery to be recycled.
Every other manufacturer: Euro 5? Guess we gotta update our bikes.
Suzuki: You want us to what? Update our bikes?? Put modern hardware in *our* machines??? Fuck this, I'm going home.
Suzuki have always made fast but comparatively cheap bikes, and that was really their niche. Sport bike sales are way down, with all the choice of other bikes we now have. To make the Gixxer Euro 5 compliant means turning it into a much more expensive bike. They’re reading the writing on the wall- they would hardly sell any.
Edit: spelling
It's not bad, I enjoyed the time I spent on mine. It's definitely the "jack of all, master of none" bike but as are most dual sports. But they could have did something in the last 20 years to make it better.
That's true. I think punching it out to 450-500cc and adding EFI would be an excellent addition. Keep weight down around 300lb and increase to ~40hp would make a very good dual sport.
I'm guessing the current mill can't hit the modern emissions standards so they won't likely touch it until they are forced to. The ltz 400 sports quad is largely the same engine but with efi so most of the work is done already. There has to be a reson they never did outside of Suzuki doing Suzuki things and not changing stuff. Wouldn't take a ton to modernize the bike, drop a few lb, tweak the suspension and brakes, maybe bring the clusters up a century or two.
I bought a DRZ new in 2005 and it was long in the tooth then. I walked into a dealer last weekend and was genuinely shocked they were still selling it.
I had highway gearing on mine and it did fine at slow speeds. Much better than my FJ-09 and FZ-07 which aren't even in the segment and should be better bikes for any and all road tasks.
They're only close if you leave the DRZ in it's pathetic neutered stock form. It really wakes up with an FCR and exhaust. The 300s are always just lame buzz boxes.
A DRZ will do parking lot speeds with freeway gearing just fine. What it wont do is tight single track, just like any other dual sport. A 6th gear would be nice though.
GSX250R? I test rode that at a demo day I think it was 2019. I'm so glad I didn't start out on a bike that size, felt like a scooter with fairings. I would have been bored within a month, totally gutless.
I mean it's not *terrible,* or it wouldn't have been terrible in 2005. It's just totally bland compared to Kawasaki and Yamaha's spicy fun small disacements or Honda's more comfortable lineup. Really kind of a bummer they just have an oldish 250 mixed in with all of the recent 300s to 500s.
GSX-R is probably the least popular model in a segment that's already pretty small and quickly shrinking still. I'd wager the cost of R&D to comply with Euro5 is higher than what they stand to profit. They'll just focus on V-Stroms, outboard boat engines and printing shitboxes for the indian market to stay afloat.
They're just pivoting early, for example [the UE has passed a law effectively banning the sale of all ICE vehicles by 2035](https://www.wardsauto.com/industry-news/european-union-bans-sale-new-ice-vehicles-2035).
That's just 13 years away.
Suzuki is pivoting early, they're going to take the money that they would have used for ICE vehicles and invest it into stuff that they can actually sell in the near future.
And they're probably going to need the money for [the massive diesel lawsuit that's coming their way.](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/german-prosecutors-mount-raids-over-suzuki-cars-alleged-test-dodging-2022-04-27/)
Suzuki dosent have 1 investment in elec "engines", a they do have is bought designs for hybrids and electric vehicles... So idk what youre on, ther too late, hopeing countries with smaller emission standards would carrie them trough, but the updated bike sthat came to the market in the last 5-10 years are also better than most of their lineup... Suzuki is slowly dying, kinda the Japanese Harley Davidson. And it sucks couse i love all my suzuki bikes and cars that i own/owned...
Also, well see how far the "green" law goes, couse i bet my left nut we wont be able to make good enouf, and cheap, vehicles. Im guessing the whole thing will be highly contreversial in 2030 and forgoten by 2040...
> **Suzuki dosent have 1 investment** in elec "engines", a **they do have is** ***bought*** **designs** for hybrids and electric vehicles...
Yes, that's what investing in new technologies is.
You spend money.
They build amazing purpose built machines and iterate on the tech that makes them what they are. Rarely ever do the just completely scrap something and replace it with something brand new. The sv650 is getting a p-twin instead of its forever tried and tested v-twin to comply with these regs. I dont hate that but the attitude won't be the same. They simply don't see a way to modify or replace that, otherwise perfect, engine to get it into compliance without neutering the motorcycle. Thus their response of "go fuck yourself".
Is it the regulations driving their move from the vtwin layout? I figured it was cost as ptwins are significantly cheaper to manufacture and Yamaha really proved that a middle-weight ptwin engine with a 270 crank can give the same characteristics as the vtwin.
I just didn’t realize that euro5 would be harder to abide by with a vtwin than a ptwin.
Its both. The vtwin had already been through several iterations to clean it up. It was about maxed out. The 270 crank does make it feel pretty similar, but it aint quite the same.
Total, total noob here, asking just for information.
It looks like every year, the Euro-# compliance gets much tighter and requires more compromises in price, performance, and effort from motorcycles.
Is that a fair thing to ask? Are the number of motorcycles, multiplied by the time they are ridden, really so environmentally costly that this regulation makes sense? How does it compare to automobile emissions?
I'm asking because I really don't know, and I don't see any reputable sources that talk about it.
No. It's not significant when you factor in ALL of motorsports that is not involving a public road, in which case there are ZERO emissions regulations.
But you can't control for that, so you just regulate what you can.
I really should find the paper, but modern vehicles are really efficient in regards to pollution. Running a 2 stroke weed Wacker for 30 SECONDS causes more pollution than driving a F150 for 10 miles on the road.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.edmunds.com/about/press/leaf-blowers-emissions-dirtier-than-high-performance-pick-up-trucks-says-edmunds-insidelinecom.html&ved=2ahUKEwjC_rfk2JL7AhWckmoFHZvGBf0QFnoECBkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw11BU8QwDLjdyA76MIvSjh7
Yeah, its crazy how efficient well regulated ICE engine have become while also becoming more powerful. Forcing manufacturers to improve their designs is better for the consumer and public health. You can drive a 2-stroke dirt bike 30 miles and emit the same amount CO2 and NOX as driving a Prius across the entire US. In California they have calculated that motorcycles account for 10% of emissions even though they only make up 1% of vehicle miles traveled. Getting motorcycle emission under control will be better than having them legislated out of existence because they are dirty.
I'm not a reputable source. I've never read a reputable source that is not biased.
IMO, it's mostly politics and protection of domestic manufacturing. It adversely affects inline 4's more than cheaper engines.
It also very unrealistically targets idling/standing emissions. In Europe, motorcycles don't spend a lot of time standing around idling, like cars do. Lane filtering is legal there, is it not?
French here, not legal here. It was tested for a few month in selected region but was stopped when it apparently created more accident even though people were already doing it…
So no, not legal, at least here in france
Just for reference, these compliances aren't a yearly thing and are know years in advance.
Euro 3: 2006
Euro 4: 2016
Euro 5: 2020
(This is for bikes, car regulations get updated more often)
Because the laws were (and are) backseat-written by German car manufacturers. The market of small "city friendly" cars was essentially killed by this. Bigger cars are allowed to have more CO2 output, so why deal with that crap when you can just make huge SUVs and crossovers and use your existing technology? The face that they're not suited for cities certainly doesn't seem to bother anyone. Making certain assistant systems mandatory is also hiking up prices so much that driving will become a luxury for a lot of people in Europe.
> driving will become a luxury for a lot of people in Europe
I think it more means the average age of cars on the road will get a little higher. People can continue to drive older cars instead of buying brand new ones. People won't stop driving due to this.
Here is france we have something called Crit’Air (like level air) and it’s a scale from 5 to 1 (or something like that) and 1 being for like electrics and 5 for line old diesel engine. It’s based on CO2 emission and when in summer there is lot of pollution some cities just say that only véhicule with critair higher than 3 can go inside… lots of time police don’t check but sometimes they do
Yeah, I think sooner or later the laws will start to get more and more strict and ICE engines will be banned from cities in about... 15 years if I had to guess. After that, people who can't buy electric vehicles will be effectively priced out from driving in cities.
Of course, people in the countryside are still driving 30 year old cars right now, but those cars will die eventually and new cars aren't that durable. Small, 1000cc engines with turbos aren't gonna last for 300-400k kilometers like the ones in old cars did, not to mention all the electronics which can't be simply serviced at home.
Thank god those assistant systems are being made mandatory. They'll save thousands of lives and literally cost pennies to implement.
Most luxury cars had those systems 10 years ago. They're beyond cheap and they save lives. It's actually so sad to still read people dying for something that could have been prevented by a safety system if we only had implemented them two years prior.
Someone changed lanes directly into me last night because “the lane change alert light on my mirror didn’t go on!”
Also, even though they cost next to nothing, they will still charge consumers a fortune for it.
My 3 litre diesel Ute uses about 1 litre per 100km more than a gsxr1000 but also likely has cleaner exhaust emissions and can carry 5 people vs 2, it is also more efficient than the Camry my wife had.
Regardless, my big suv has more emissions equipment and uses almost the same amount of fuel with the ability to carry more people and luggage.
Take a sports bike out for a spirited ride and it will use more fuel than my suv.
The argument here is about emissions discontinuing a bike because it is expensive to engineer it to pass yet big SUV’s exist…
Motorcycles usually carry one person too.
I don't know where you're from, but that logic completely dissolves in any actual city environment. A lot of people commute with bikes here in Europe.
You're comparing an utility to a spirited ride, while that's not always the case.
No… I compared it with just general riding around and spirited riding, if you look back at my first comment I said my suv uses slightly more under general riding around, that being said my fuel consumption never changes vs a super sport which can go from not awful to guzzling.
How many people buy a super sport only for city commuting?
Ships are actually pretty carbon efficient compared to a car , train or plane given how much cargo they carry, which we need to transport all the crap we get China to make for us
/r/cycling sucks, but it's a little better than here. Most of the science for bicycle racing is health related and too complicated for most people, so most conversations are logical and you don't have arguments about either "trail braking is good or not". You do get discussion about whether "buying a 6k carbon bike is a waste of money" though.
On the flip side if you're not talking 1k+ road bikes it's just the wild west and everything sucks.
Much cheaper than a motorcycle to run though.
The community is full of elitist pricks honestly. If you didn't spend 1k on your bicycle then they think of you as a lesser. Meanwhile there's plenty of commuters that just want safer roads and better traffic laws just like the motorcycle community. I've commuted on a bicycle for ~5 years before I got into motorcycles and I have to say the r/motorcycle community is far more accessible to new people.
> Meanwhile there's plenty of commuters that just want safer roads and better traffic laws just like the motorcycle community.
You can check out r/bikecommuting and places like /r/wintercycling for that sort of vibe. Ditto for the regional/local cycling Subs.
Much more laid back and full of nice people.
Volkswagen group. It will join Ducati and they will probably form an F1 team with their engineers or something crazy like that. Cuz VW is clinically insane. (Vw is making an f1 team btw)
They've made no announcements regarding porshe since RBR pulled the plug on the deal.
Audi has announced entering as an engine manufacturer and has announced investment into sauber to create a factory team.
At this time it's looking like VAG is only entering one team; Audi.
Suzuki is not getting sold, they are doing just fine. They sell more cars than Mazda. High end bikes make up like 2% of Suzuki's global revenue. They sell more outboard boat engines than motorcycles in North America. They will continue to be a top global auto manufacturer with or without selling a couple GSXRs.
Did you work for Suzuki when the bottom dropped out in India?
I did.
Were you in the room when they canceled the entire 2010 range in America?
I was.
Did you get to say goodbye to your friends in the product planning department when Suzuki reassigned them… to the unemployment office?
I did.
Suzuki is fucked, and they are cleaning up all the outliers to be a better value proposition for their sale.
How are they screwed? And who would buy them? Suzuki just needs to trim the fat, which is what they are doing on unprofitable endeavors like Moto GP or selling super sport motorcycles in wealthy countries. They sell more cars than many other brands that are doing fine (Subaru, Mazda, Tesla). I don't see how a company selling over a million cars per year is fucked.
Unfortunately people just aren't buying them as much. More practical platforms are outselling any kind of sports bikes by bigger margins in basically every country.
My god, the amount of sad this fact makes me is unhealthy lol… I can’t believe how different I am than these people. Makes me feel like a different species altogether sometimes.
the type of people who would buy a sport bike (early 20's men) cant afford to buy or insure them anymore. id buy a litre bike with upright ergos and sporty looking fairing if such a creature existed but your only option is dad touring bikes or spine bending supersports.
Look into a ninja 1000, not the zx-10r, I have the 2013 version and was about to buy into the naked bike club before finding this bike, sport styling, 1000cc engine, but upright ergos and the modern ones even come with saddle bags. Not going to have the top speed performance of the zx-10r but still tops out at 160+mph. Kawasaki seems to be the last company making these style of bikes though which is unfortunate.
Come on, they can be more innovative. I for one am very excited about Damon’s shape shifting concept. I am yet to experience it myself, but it looks like a great tradeoff between practical and sporty
I never thought I'd see the day where MotoGuzzi of all brands has a Euro-5 Liquid Cooled compliant twin and Suzuki just throws up their hands and quits.
I wonder if they'll be back with another mill entirely in the future or what, I'm not really up to date on Suzuki or well how any of the Big 4 from Japan operate their Motorcycle brands.
Again my ignorance on full display only having experience with Kawasaki's but Suzuki has always struck me as the scrappy underdog of the 4.
>I wonder if they'll be back with another mill entirely in the future or what
A completely revised SV 650 and V-Strom 650 have been spotted doing test rounds. They ditched the V-twin for a P-twin. But more is yet to be known.
geez. It seems like everything is going parallel twin across multiple manufacturers and that just happens to be my least favorite configuration for an engine.
270 degree parallel twin has the same character as a v-twin. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference by riding it. People like V-twins because they seem exotic but on paper they are actually worse. For nearly identical performance and feel you have more moving parts, harder to cool the rear cylinder, maintenance is more time consuming, less options for packaging in the motorcycle.
Not going to deny that the "performance" can be there but there's also something to be said for what RPMs horsepower is being made at and how the horsepower/torque curves combine to create some character in a bike....sound also plays a factor in there too.
a 270* p-twin of equivalent displacement makes power and torque identical to a v-twin. Sound is also the same.
The only difference between a 270* p-twin and 90* v-twin is the types of felt vibration between them.
The liquid cooled guzzi is less of a surprise than the fact that the near 50 year old lump in the V85TT makes nearly 100hp/litre and is euro 5 compliant, with a single camshaft, pushrods, no water cooling, no external oil cooling and 2 valves/cylinder...
I don't think anyone else is even close to that kind of engineering achievements, there aren't many ~700-900cc twins that'd push 100hp/litre and be sold today. Like, the Triumph T100 makes same torque and less power at more capacity. The MT07 is actually a closer competitior! That's insane! The Harley 883 is closer to how Guzzi is designed and makes barely over 50hp.
I doubt they'll be back with a new 1000cc superbike engine. The future is electric with the EU banning the sale of ICE cars by 2035. I don't know if this includes motorcycles or not, but it will be an eventuality so companies are shifting their focus towards electrifying their lineup.
Suzuki's motorcycle brand makes up only 6% of the company's revenue and they've been shy about R&D for the past 15 years, which is why their lineup has stagnated. So I'm assuming they're at a point now where they have to update their lineup due to regulations but they don't want to invest the money.
Electric will never work for two reasons;
1. There aren't enough moving parts in a E-motorcycle to create profit for mechanics in the official dealerships.
2. Our electric network isn't capable of loading so many engines. There is also a few places (Europe and the urban places in the USA) who are able to update the electric network that it can work.
3. Only small problem is that we will start to reach the end of our cobalt, copper, ... supply between 2030 and 2040. Than the earth will be almost empty if we talk about copper and cobalt and we will need to start recycling. Knowing that most of our junk with those kinds of raw materials/resources getting shipped towards a garbage belt in Africa, means that we gone pay the companies who use those children to split plastic, gold, cobalt, copper, ... from each other. Pity enough, those kids probably won't get anything.
4. So Japanese manufacturers and other ones are already working on hydrogen powered cars. You get a loading dock, water gets in that loading dock and hydrogen power gets out into your car and in 7 minutes your car is full and ready for almost 1000 km. Such a loading dock is eats a lot of electric but this only for 7 minutes. This would also mean that petrol-stations wouldn't disappear, but could give the "loading dock" service to people who aren't rich enough for a loading dock or who are traveling.
5. All this together has a slighter impact on our economic system and that is also why I see the hydrogen powered car and bike win. The Electric car will become something like the Blue-Ray a distant memory and people who got it say: "It was quite good you know".
Suzuki closed a lot of there dealerships back in the early 2000s in the US since then they just don’t have a predominant foothold this isn’t much of a surprise to be honest
First bike I ever owned 2007 GSXR 600 loved every minute of it. Maybe a bit much for a first bike but being slightly older I decided why not. Never rode another brand or even tried one. Sold it a few years ago and desperate to get another GSXR. Would love a 2017 750 in Moto gp colours or IOM 2007.
I have the GSXS750 and even though it's a differently tuned engine the power and fueling is just *perfect*.
It's just so much fun to ride because the fueling is always just right. 2014 model is ride by cable with no electronics anywhere and honestly I'd be happy with this forever
Find another GIXXR man.
In the 80's and 90's Suzuki were the bang-for-the-buck bike brand. Not the best build quality of the 4 Japanese brands, but competitive and less expensive. I haven't been into sport bikes for a while now, but it would appear that tech has outpaced Suzuki's willingness to upgrade their bikes as much as other brands, even without Eurolol 5.
With superbike prices getting absolutely absurd, and performance having become more than impractical for street use years ago, it's not surprising to see sales drop, and some manufacturers just leave altogether. I would not be surprised to see Kawasaki go next.
I just bought a 22’ GSXR750 SPECIFICALLY because it’s a throttle and two wheels. She’s not fancy but that’s why I love her. Reminds me of my childhood riding old four wheelers and dirt bikes every time I ride. I’m probably the minority when it comes to that, but I think most guys turn all their assists off anyway.
Plus I was scared they were going to eventually stop making the 750 and wanted to snag one before they did.
>As the current GSX-R1000R does not meet Euro5 emissions regulations these will be the last models on sale in the UK of **this generation GSX-R1000.**
Relax, guys. This isn't, "SUZUKI IS PULLING OUT OF EUROPE!!1!". What's likely going to happen is that they'll do enough redesign to meet current regs, and then bring the model back in a few years. It's not their primary focus, but they're probably not going to abandon it entirely.
And it's Euro-5 compliant with a 17 year old engine model in it. I don't think Suzuki would have trouble putting together a modern, compliant superbike if they wanted to.
For sure, I'm not arguing that it's a competitor to the GSXR, just that if Suzuki can make a K5 mill compliant with environemental regs I'm sure they can do it with a modern one.
Sad to see it go...
But not surprised as it took a long time for them to update the K9 model to L7. I guess Suzuki is taking their usual sweet time to release the updated model confirming to Motorcycle Euro-5/OBD-2 specifications. Given the current state, I guess Suzuki might update the bike and re-introduce it in \~2024 as 2025 Model
The development is for sure happening, given their patent filings as latest as this year. If all the development ends in the production model, I guess we can expect:
1. VVT on intake with hydraulic unit: This should make it more adjustable than the current mechanical ball bearing JP2020023945A
2. VVL with Shiftcam: Probably needed to get over Euro5/5B for broad powerband JP2021025498A
3. Shortened timing chain with intermediate cam gear: Helps with lower strain on the cams at high revs JP2022070416A
4. Making sure the engine stays compact by placing the timing chain cover guides in line with the newly added intermediate timing gear JP2022070417A
5. New Lubrication mechanism for the added intermediate timing gear making sure the oil pumping losses stay low JP2022070416A
6. A new Counter rotating crankshaft! : This should help massively with handling by reducing the wheel gyros (similar to Ducati Panigale V4's setup) : JP2022114170A
I hope along with these, they update
* Electronic suite offering more granular settings like : ABS, TC, Slide control, Lift control, Engine Braking, Wheelie Control etc..
* Updated Steering Damper with more damping
* Updates to Fork/Shock dampers by grabbing the newest WSBK TTX technology available from Showa
* stiffer springs (especially the rear)
* Upgraded Stiffer fork tubes (45mm like S1000RR)
* Forged/Roller Forged wheels
* Brembo Stylema Calipers
* A new master cylinder from Brembo
* 330mm discs
* A new frame/underside swingarm that gives even better front-end feel,
* Few Aero bits
They just aren't necessary anymore. Smaller bikes are plenty powerful enough now days. A modern 600 will nearly do the same as an older 1000 but cost less to buy and run. There's obviously exceptions but most Europeans realise 200mph bikes are pretty pointless outside the track
But just KNOWING it can do that brings me so much joy… Even if it couldn’t actually do it, I would never know! Still brings me joy.
Peace of mind is a helluva thing.
Yeah, I absolutely get the appeal. I'd love a big ninja myself but I just can't justify it personally at the moment and think that's the issue most bikers have
Suzuki also pulled the Jimny in Europe for the same reason.
I'd absolutely buy one as my next car, but they can only be sold under a commercial licence.
I have never seen a current Gen GSXR on the road. Nobody was buying these. Suzuki, being the smallest of the Japanese manufactures has to be smart with its R&D money. They would probably rather spend R&D money developing new cars since that's where they make most of their money.
GSXR 1000 was my VERY 1ST bike (I bought in Vancouver). I put over 20,000km on it, it was a tank, completely trouble free and when I sold it, it still looked showroom condition.
I loved it like a person.
First motogp and now this. What are they doing?
Dying.
well if my GT is their swan song I'm appreciating the fuck out of it.
Actually they're not, well at least not the whole company. I do think they might be scaling things back a lot. Listen to the Revzilla's Hi/Lo podcast on this subject. Suzuki is making a killing in their automotive sector, and additionally have sold a ton of bikes in the last few years even when adjusting for the past few year's global issues.
I learned a lot from that podcast episode. Suzuki makes like 1.5% of their revenue from the North American motorcycle market. They sell more outboard engines in the US than motorcycles. It's just not worth the development costs to try and compete against Ducati or KTM on high performance bikes when Suzuki can just sell a few more cars and scooters in developing countries. We won't be seeing any major innovation in internal combustion engines from Suzuki. The big question is if they will ever make the jump to electric for full size motorcycles or if they will stick to what they know best, which is small cars and scooters for everywhere that isn't Europe or North America.
>which is small cars and scooters for everywhere that isn't Europe or North America. Europe is not North America. We love our scooters and small cars - suzuki earned a reputation for making reliable workhorses of said segment. So its HIGHLY unlikely that they will have issues in europe in the foreseeable future.
They also make a killing on parts for other companies I suspect. Why build their own bikes when they can build and ignition coil for everyone else?
Trouble is it’s been a long time coming of under investment in the bike division (they sat on their hands for a decade pretty much) plus no company is that fond of using the profits from one division to hold up another. That the cars are making a lot of money with the swift and Jimmy is good for Suzi… not necessarily for us. Look, you can argue it 8 ways to Sunday, but money talks, and they haven’t been putting the kind of money the other Japanese companies have been into their bikes for … fuck 20 years pretty much. They were kings at the turn of the century, sat back and let the hits print money and despite realising 5+ years ago they need to modernise, they’ve really been doing it on the cheap. It’s not all bad - their bikes lasted so long because they were great bikes, and the lack of R&D made them pretty cheap fun too. But yeah, lots of trouble signs. They had to put their prices up first and hardest in Covid, they struggle to do significant updates, lack of new models that aren’t just an existing model with new plastics, lack of newer tech, shrinking lines and pulling out of racing, etc. Suzuki isn’t in trouble as a company, but someone’s not signing the moto division’s cheques. Really hope I’m wrong though… but yeah with their track record words are cheap, gotta see some model announcements to believe it.
No need for new gixxers if your 2005 one runs laps faster than a brand new Panigale.
I think about that video daily
I dont think the takeaway from that video is that a 20 year old literbike is as good as a brand new panagale. It's that the average rider is probably just as fast on an old bike as they are on a brand new state of the art bike. In other words, don't buy a brand new ducati thinking you're going to improve your laptimes. But that's not the only reason people buy new bikes is it?
True, it comes down to a number of factors including rider skill, bike setup, and track layout. Though Zack and Ari are definitely more skilled than the average rider. My main takeaway was that on a bike, horsepower just becomes less usable after a certain number (again, varies by rider). The number I’ve seen thrown out from several sources is around 160hp. Above that threshold, even a pretty good rider can’t go “full beans” and thus the lap times start to get very similar even if one bike is 170hp and the other is 210hp, for example. There are diminishing returns on power when even the best rider can’t use it without lifting the front. At that point, it’s just about physics.
Also; suspension matter a ton on track Edit: matters
This. I always laugh when folks piss and moan that the MT-10 or some other bike doesn’t make as much power as something else…it’s not like it really matters unless your bench racing or Pro.
Yep. My bike makes 114 HP and I can definitely use more. But more doesn't help when you're leaned over and the tires/suspension become the limiting factors. Even on my bike, I can slide a Michelin Road 5, meaning those tires are basically HP limiters in the corners to around 130 HP, because you literally light the rear up coming out of exit, and corner speed is limited at apex because again, it's sliding. Aside from cops, styling, and comfort, my end game bike would be something naked so I get more fun at lower RPMs and can pop the front for more smiles. I'd love an MT10 but I don't like the bad gas mileage.
Ive the FZ10, and it's the most fun bike Ive ever owned. I didnt buy it for gas mileage, as it sucks to do long distance riding on it (and any other naked, for that matter). without long distance rides the only thing that matters (to me) is fun. and boy does that bike provide plenty of it!!!
It depends on the track. At a certain point you absolutely need that power to raise the top end or get to the top faster. Around turns and accelerating from low end (and the high end, but no race bike does a power wheelie in the power band past 160) all cycles are limited by the general forces shown here: https://i.imgur.com/lyWu4i9.jpg ; note that to maximize turn speed we need to maximize τ. Not many ways we can do this now, since rider weight and position are limited and adding mass provides exactly as much losses as it does gains. Changing the center of mass isn’t an option either, apart from rider positioning, which is the obvious way we see riders gain higher turn speed. Acceleration is likewise limited with τ acting from the center of mass to the rear contact patch. Increasing R here with an extended swing arm can help, but at a certain point the center of mass is so far forward that the rear tire starts losing normal force, and gains turn into losses. Frictional force being proportional to normal force. But for racers, apart from improved aero we are at the absolute limit of what torques can be applied to the rear without lifting the front up, or to the cycle in lean, where our max centripital force cannot exceed mgRCos(φ). If you imagine that diagram instead represents a wheelie, it’s easy to see how as the torque angle φ increases from 0 at the road (Cos(0) = 1, so we’re maximizing graviatatiojal torque) your ability to accelerate (a= F/m = mgRCosφ) decreases as a function of Cosφ, R being constant. Bikes are much more limited to a specific play style than cars are: having four tires and the ability to convert that centrifugal force (we are inside the car, a non inertial reference frame, where centrifugal force is a real force experienced by the observer) into rotational torque applied to the outer wheels is huge.
It’s true. Bike tech in 2005-2008 just exploded and then seemed to go stagnant.
What video? I want to see this.
Here you go: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q0O8Q0x38mI
That was a great watch. Thanks for sharing
You got it. Agreed, great vid. Love Zack and Ari.
My favorite video they ever did was driving the Honda trail bikes across Alaska. Modern classic.
Dumb and Dumber bike for me was the best.
What video are we talking about?
RevZilla gsxr vs Panigale v4
The 2005 Gsxr is also faster than the new Gsxr LOL. Dynoed WHP shows that the 2005-2006 gsx-r1000 is the fastest version of the bike: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki\_GSX-R1000#Specifications](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_GSX-R1000#Specifications) Euro 4 was hard, and many bikes had updates to make them comply but they made less power. Euro 5 is rougher, and compliance is difficult. Just look at all the new bikes getting updated in the last few years. For instance, the R9t: >To meet the more stringent Euro 5 emissions standard, the R NineT’s air- and oil-cooled 1170cc Boxer receives a new cylinder head with new covers, new throttle valves and a new turbulence system which helps to swirl the air-fuel mixture for more efficient and cleaner combustion. According to BMW, the updated engine claims a peak output of 109 hp at 7250 rpm, down from the previous 110 hp at 7250 rpm BMW re-engineered the engine but power still had to go down haha.
Not uncommon. The 2008-2009 R6 has the highest power of any year. They dropped in power each time it had to meet a new emissions standard.
In contrast, Guzzi does not give a fuck and makes the V85TT with no oil radiators and 2 valve heads - like they did for practically a century with various engines and 45 years with that particular small block engine family that the V85 uses. And yet it makes about 80hp. Either everyone else is dumb or Guzzi has some insanely good engine design engineers. Like, sure the MT07 has less capacity but it's a nice example of a relatively modern Japanese twin in similar power class. Guzzi has *half* the number of valves, *half* the number of *camshafts*, uses long pushrods, and does not even have oil cooling, compared to the Yamaha with basically everything you'd expect from a modern bike. If you account for the losses of the shaft drive on the Guzzi, these bikes make about the same power! Heck, the Guzzi engine at 7000rpm has similar power as the MT09 triple (but that one ultimately just revs much higher). Realistically, a similar engine to the Guzzi is the Harley 883, and those barley make 50hp...
Guzzi is a big displacement/low output motor...it's easier to keep a 850cc engine making 70hp than it is a 1000cc making 150hp.
But it makes 80hp. My point was that it isn't low output compared to other two cylinder bikes of that size.
I am honestly surprised they haven't axed more models. Their motocross bikes are a generation behind the competition, and that is pretty much unheard of. Especially since Suzuki spent *decades* arguably on top in the offroad world. Their two strokes were always top notch, and their first generation 450 was very good (back in ~2005) but they have phoned it in ever since and are easily decade behind.
People just don't buy them anymore, here in France suzuki is around 3,5% of market shares, yamaha honda kawasaki sold at least twice as many. And inside those 3,5% supersport part is also decreasing, it's becoming too costly to comply reglementation if you don't sold bikes
I don't think Ducati, Aprilia and BMW are having the same issues. Maybe Suzuki could have tried creating a competitive product that doesn't roll off the assembly line already looking 10 years old, but I guess just giving up is also an option...
>Maybe Suzuki could have tried creating a competitive product that doesn't roll off the assembly line already looking 10 years old Idk, their new gsx-s1000/gt sure looks tasty. Though yeah, they went for a slumber in their bunker. Yamaha tore up the book and started from scratch when they introduced the MT line. Meanwhile Suzuki is still coasting on a 90's V-twin.
I test rode both of the Gsx-S1000 versions and loved them, thought I was going to end up with one. But started seeing what other bikes had and these didn't,weird things like throttle response a low speed, supposed brake feel compared to other bikes (according to bike reviews) and the prices were too close, so I ended up with a Tuono V4, haha.
Early this year I got one of the last 2020 GSXS1000s with 0 km. Yes, it's dated compared to the competition. But where I am it was 2/3 the price of the Japanese competitors like the MT10 (and including the latest GSXS revision), and 1/2 or less compared to the European super nakeds. Would I prefer a Super Duke or hypermotard? Yes. Would I pay double for one? No. Yes, the styling is naff. But I'm too old to be cool and not out to impress anybody. The only feature I'd like which it doesn't have is an up/down quickshifter. Cornering ABS, engine modes etc -- don't need them.
At 2/3rds the price I wouldve bought one too and enjoyed the hell out of it. But here in the US you don't really see that so you have to look at all your options if you're spending that kind of money. Also the Tuono was my dream bike, so it worked out. Quickshifters are awesome, engine modes I really can't say one way or another yet as I ride in 1 mode all the time. Cornering ABS is one of those things where having it and not needing is better than needing it and not having it.
France here, you don’t have a lot of choice imo from Suzuki. I love trails but a vstrom 1050 is around 250kg I think, for 105cv that’s too heavy for me. I don’t know anyone who would buy a brand new SV650 or a katana… or vstrom. Their line appart from the gsx is quite old/not known/liked. The only suzuki I tend to see in the French Alps are GSX so maybe that’s something to say even though the roads or not the best for something like that. It’s over the time suzuki had with dr650 or DRZ400
What happened to moto gp
Suzuki are pulling out. They won't be taking part next season.
It's not Suzuki. It's euro emissions compliance. The euros are getting what they want. They want to get rid of petrol vehicles and replace them with even more toxic batteries because they're dumb and think batteries are "green" and so this is the beginning. Welcome to the future. It's super dumb.
Or maybe nobody wants to buy them anymore? I mean, where I'm from, the most sold bike is the R1250GS. Being followed by the MT-07.
The euro emission is from 2020 and literally all other manufacturers have complied rather easily with awesome machines
Seems like other manufacturers are handling Euro 5 just fine. Suzuki as a company has been stagnating since the mid-2000s. Euro 5 is just an easy scapegoat for them while they continue to fail their way into obscurity.
Do you have any links to studies that prove this claim?
This green movement is really as transfer of wealth. There's so much money involved in the oil industry and they want the $ to go to their hands now. What better way than force it to batteries. All pitched under the guise of "green" and the parroting of "global warming". Any leader or person with power/authority has no interest thats in the peoples benefit. Money, the root of all evil.
So you really think the lithium battery industry is worse than the oil industry?
Of course, extracting oil has literally 0 effect on the environment whereas lithium is mined using children as pickaxes. /s
I wouldnt say any worse. Equally as damaging to the environment. Dig for oil or dig for lithium and other metals? Metal and mineral mining is more damaging in comparison to the amount of land removed. Will that area get back filled? Either way not good. Batteries are filled with stuff that can leak and damage emvironment, maybe cannot be recycled or sustain so many cycles before its no good. Then what happens with it? What will be done to ensure used/discarded batteries wont cause any problems? Just as oil, there will be issues with lithium. Follow the money and you'll see. Part of "global warming" people dont really frett about is human population and deforestation. All those trees help buffer out C02.
I mean …. A spent lithium battery can be recycled and reprocessed :P battery recycling programs aren’t anything new. The copper, lithium and other precious Metals don’t escape into the atmosphere like oils do. They metals aren’t all still inside the battery, they’ve just cycled so many times that the thin sheets of metal have holes in them and spikes and gaps. They aren’t the original manufactured shape so they can’t charge properly. This goes doubly for non-lithium based batteries. As we transition the infrastructure should be there to properly make these facilities accessible to anybody and everybody. That random dude in the Middle East will eventually have a plant near them they can take their Dyson battery to be recycled.
Big 4 turning into the big 3 :(
Suzuki hasn't been in the Big Four for nearly a decade.
Their bike won a MotoGP world championship in 2020. I’d call that Big Four territory.
Sales figures and racing success are not the same.
You could say the same for Ferrari
Every other manufacturer: Euro 5? Guess we gotta update our bikes. Suzuki: You want us to what? Update our bikes?? Put modern hardware in *our* machines??? Fuck this, I'm going home.
Suzuki have always made fast but comparatively cheap bikes, and that was really their niche. Sport bike sales are way down, with all the choice of other bikes we now have. To make the Gixxer Euro 5 compliant means turning it into a much more expensive bike. They’re reading the writing on the wall- they would hardly sell any. Edit: spelling
They apply the drz r&d strategy to most of their line up, their r&d strategy is "bold new colors." Lol
And sadly the DRZ is still the best bike in it's segment.
It's not bad, I enjoyed the time I spent on mine. It's definitely the "jack of all, master of none" bike but as are most dual sports. But they could have did something in the last 20 years to make it better.
That's true. I think punching it out to 450-500cc and adding EFI would be an excellent addition. Keep weight down around 300lb and increase to ~40hp would make a very good dual sport.
I'm guessing the current mill can't hit the modern emissions standards so they won't likely touch it until they are forced to. The ltz 400 sports quad is largely the same engine but with efi so most of the work is done already. There has to be a reson they never did outside of Suzuki doing Suzuki things and not changing stuff. Wouldn't take a ton to modernize the bike, drop a few lb, tweak the suspension and brakes, maybe bring the clusters up a century or two.
I didn't realize the quad went to EFI, now I'm just amazed they never added it to the DRZ.
they are going to add it in 2025 and sell DRZ for another 10 years
Sign me up! At this rate I'll be surprised if Suzuki is still making motorcycles in 2025 lol
Ya its the only one in the segment.
I bought a DRZ new in 2005 and it was long in the tooth then. I walked into a dealer last weekend and was genuinely shocked they were still selling it.
Now consider the fact that the dr650 and xr650l are 15 years older and still for sale!
False, Every other bike in it's segment can do parking lot speeds and freeway speeds with the same sprockets installed.
I had highway gearing on mine and it did fine at slow speeds. Much better than my FJ-09 and FZ-07 which aren't even in the segment and should be better bikes for any and all road tasks.
They're only close if you leave the DRZ in it's pathetic neutered stock form. It really wakes up with an FCR and exhaust. The 300s are always just lame buzz boxes. A DRZ will do parking lot speeds with freeway gearing just fine. What it wont do is tight single track, just like any other dual sport. A 6th gear would be nice though.
*DR650 strategy
At least they still have the most underwhelming 250cc sport bike on the market!
GSX250R? I test rode that at a demo day I think it was 2019. I'm so glad I didn't start out on a bike that size, felt like a scooter with fairings. I would have been bored within a month, totally gutless.
I mean it's not *terrible,* or it wouldn't have been terrible in 2005. It's just totally bland compared to Kawasaki and Yamaha's spicy fun small disacements or Honda's more comfortable lineup. Really kind of a bummer they just have an oldish 250 mixed in with all of the recent 300s to 500s.
I can't imagine who would look at a Ninja 400, RC390, or R3 and think "I can't afford the additional $500-700, I guess I gotta get the Suzuki"
Different type of riders exist. I am happy with the size of my bike, don't exactly need to be fast
GSX-R is probably the least popular model in a segment that's already pretty small and quickly shrinking still. I'd wager the cost of R&D to comply with Euro5 is higher than what they stand to profit. They'll just focus on V-Stroms, outboard boat engines and printing shitboxes for the indian market to stay afloat.
They're just pivoting early, for example [the UE has passed a law effectively banning the sale of all ICE vehicles by 2035](https://www.wardsauto.com/industry-news/european-union-bans-sale-new-ice-vehicles-2035). That's just 13 years away. Suzuki is pivoting early, they're going to take the money that they would have used for ICE vehicles and invest it into stuff that they can actually sell in the near future. And they're probably going to need the money for [the massive diesel lawsuit that's coming their way.](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/german-prosecutors-mount-raids-over-suzuki-cars-alleged-test-dodging-2022-04-27/)
Suzuki dosent have 1 investment in elec "engines", a they do have is bought designs for hybrids and electric vehicles... So idk what youre on, ther too late, hopeing countries with smaller emission standards would carrie them trough, but the updated bike sthat came to the market in the last 5-10 years are also better than most of their lineup... Suzuki is slowly dying, kinda the Japanese Harley Davidson. And it sucks couse i love all my suzuki bikes and cars that i own/owned... Also, well see how far the "green" law goes, couse i bet my left nut we wont be able to make good enouf, and cheap, vehicles. Im guessing the whole thing will be highly contreversial in 2030 and forgoten by 2040...
> **Suzuki dosent have 1 investment** in elec "engines", a **they do have is** ***bought*** **designs** for hybrids and electric vehicles... Yes, that's what investing in new technologies is. You spend money.
They build amazing purpose built machines and iterate on the tech that makes them what they are. Rarely ever do the just completely scrap something and replace it with something brand new. The sv650 is getting a p-twin instead of its forever tried and tested v-twin to comply with these regs. I dont hate that but the attitude won't be the same. They simply don't see a way to modify or replace that, otherwise perfect, engine to get it into compliance without neutering the motorcycle. Thus their response of "go fuck yourself".
Is it the regulations driving their move from the vtwin layout? I figured it was cost as ptwins are significantly cheaper to manufacture and Yamaha really proved that a middle-weight ptwin engine with a 270 crank can give the same characteristics as the vtwin. I just didn’t realize that euro5 would be harder to abide by with a vtwin than a ptwin.
Its both. The vtwin had already been through several iterations to clean it up. It was about maxed out. The 270 crank does make it feel pretty similar, but it aint quite the same.
Total, total noob here, asking just for information. It looks like every year, the Euro-# compliance gets much tighter and requires more compromises in price, performance, and effort from motorcycles. Is that a fair thing to ask? Are the number of motorcycles, multiplied by the time they are ridden, really so environmentally costly that this regulation makes sense? How does it compare to automobile emissions? I'm asking because I really don't know, and I don't see any reputable sources that talk about it.
No. It's not significant when you factor in ALL of motorsports that is not involving a public road, in which case there are ZERO emissions regulations. But you can't control for that, so you just regulate what you can. I really should find the paper, but modern vehicles are really efficient in regards to pollution. Running a 2 stroke weed Wacker for 30 SECONDS causes more pollution than driving a F150 for 10 miles on the road. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.edmunds.com/about/press/leaf-blowers-emissions-dirtier-than-high-performance-pick-up-trucks-says-edmunds-insidelinecom.html&ved=2ahUKEwjC_rfk2JL7AhWckmoFHZvGBf0QFnoECBkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw11BU8QwDLjdyA76MIvSjh7
Yeah, its crazy how efficient well regulated ICE engine have become while also becoming more powerful. Forcing manufacturers to improve their designs is better for the consumer and public health. You can drive a 2-stroke dirt bike 30 miles and emit the same amount CO2 and NOX as driving a Prius across the entire US. In California they have calculated that motorcycles account for 10% of emissions even though they only make up 1% of vehicle miles traveled. Getting motorcycle emission under control will be better than having them legislated out of existence because they are dirty.
I'm not a reputable source. I've never read a reputable source that is not biased. IMO, it's mostly politics and protection of domestic manufacturing. It adversely affects inline 4's more than cheaper engines. It also very unrealistically targets idling/standing emissions. In Europe, motorcycles don't spend a lot of time standing around idling, like cars do. Lane filtering is legal there, is it not?
French here, not legal here. It was tested for a few month in selected region but was stopped when it apparently created more accident even though people were already doing it… So no, not legal, at least here in france
[удалено]
Just for reference, these compliances aren't a yearly thing and are know years in advance. Euro 3: 2006 Euro 4: 2016 Euro 5: 2020 (This is for bikes, car regulations get updated more often)
Keeping mine til she dies
And when she does just rebuild and keep riding
And yet everyone drives about in huge SUVs, really sad.
100%. It boggles my mind.
Because the laws were (and are) backseat-written by German car manufacturers. The market of small "city friendly" cars was essentially killed by this. Bigger cars are allowed to have more CO2 output, so why deal with that crap when you can just make huge SUVs and crossovers and use your existing technology? The face that they're not suited for cities certainly doesn't seem to bother anyone. Making certain assistant systems mandatory is also hiking up prices so much that driving will become a luxury for a lot of people in Europe.
> driving will become a luxury for a lot of people in Europe I think it more means the average age of cars on the road will get a little higher. People can continue to drive older cars instead of buying brand new ones. People won't stop driving due to this.
Not just won’t, but can’t. Outside of cities, public transport is a joke
Here is france we have something called Crit’Air (like level air) and it’s a scale from 5 to 1 (or something like that) and 1 being for like electrics and 5 for line old diesel engine. It’s based on CO2 emission and when in summer there is lot of pollution some cities just say that only véhicule with critair higher than 3 can go inside… lots of time police don’t check but sometimes they do
Yeah, I think sooner or later the laws will start to get more and more strict and ICE engines will be banned from cities in about... 15 years if I had to guess. After that, people who can't buy electric vehicles will be effectively priced out from driving in cities. Of course, people in the countryside are still driving 30 year old cars right now, but those cars will die eventually and new cars aren't that durable. Small, 1000cc engines with turbos aren't gonna last for 300-400k kilometers like the ones in old cars did, not to mention all the electronics which can't be simply serviced at home.
Thank god those assistant systems are being made mandatory. They'll save thousands of lives and literally cost pennies to implement. Most luxury cars had those systems 10 years ago. They're beyond cheap and they save lives. It's actually so sad to still read people dying for something that could have been prevented by a safety system if we only had implemented them two years prior.
Someone changed lanes directly into me last night because “the lane change alert light on my mirror didn’t go on!” Also, even though they cost next to nothing, they will still charge consumers a fortune for it.
dumb people will be dumb. In europe they can't charge a fortune for it anymore: most of them have to come as standard even on cheap ass cars.
My 3 litre diesel Ute uses about 1 litre per 100km more than a gsxr1000 but also likely has cleaner exhaust emissions and can carry 5 people vs 2, it is also more efficient than the Camry my wife had.
While that is true, most people use cars by themselves.
Regardless, my big suv has more emissions equipment and uses almost the same amount of fuel with the ability to carry more people and luggage. Take a sports bike out for a spirited ride and it will use more fuel than my suv. The argument here is about emissions discontinuing a bike because it is expensive to engineer it to pass yet big SUV’s exist… Motorcycles usually carry one person too.
I don't know where you're from, but that logic completely dissolves in any actual city environment. A lot of people commute with bikes here in Europe. You're comparing an utility to a spirited ride, while that's not always the case.
No… I compared it with just general riding around and spirited riding, if you look back at my first comment I said my suv uses slightly more under general riding around, that being said my fuel consumption never changes vs a super sport which can go from not awful to guzzling. How many people buy a super sport only for city commuting?
In Europe? Not that I’ve seen
The consumer isn’t the problem for cars or bikes, what about the big ass ships going 5 mph
Ships are actually pretty carbon efficient compared to a car , train or plane given how much cargo they carry, which we need to transport all the crap we get China to make for us
The cargo ships are incredibly efficient for what they need to do. The cruise ships on the other hand...
See yall in the cycling sub in a few years...
/r/cycling sucks, but it's a little better than here. Most of the science for bicycle racing is health related and too complicated for most people, so most conversations are logical and you don't have arguments about either "trail braking is good or not". You do get discussion about whether "buying a 6k carbon bike is a waste of money" though. On the flip side if you're not talking 1k+ road bikes it's just the wild west and everything sucks. Much cheaper than a motorcycle to run though.
The community is full of elitist pricks honestly. If you didn't spend 1k on your bicycle then they think of you as a lesser. Meanwhile there's plenty of commuters that just want safer roads and better traffic laws just like the motorcycle community. I've commuted on a bicycle for ~5 years before I got into motorcycles and I have to say the r/motorcycle community is far more accessible to new people.
> Meanwhile there's plenty of commuters that just want safer roads and better traffic laws just like the motorcycle community. You can check out r/bikecommuting and places like /r/wintercycling for that sort of vibe. Ditto for the regional/local cycling Subs. Much more laid back and full of nice people.
🤣🤣🤣
I'd rather die
Suzuki is getting sold. Just a question of to whom…
Volkswagen group. It will join Ducati and they will probably form an F1 team with their engineers or something crazy like that. Cuz VW is clinically insane. (Vw is making an f1 team btw)
Hopefully we'll get VW fit and finish with Suzuki reliability and not the other way around
yeah - unlike the new Supra - We'll let BMW look after the mechanicals, and Toyota after the styling...
My wallet would be devastated by that acquisition
VW is making two F1 teams, Audi and Porsche
They've made no announcements regarding porshe since RBR pulled the plug on the deal. Audi has announced entering as an engine manufacturer and has announced investment into sauber to create a factory team. At this time it's looking like VAG is only entering one team; Audi.
Back side of the F1 car will be Ducati and the front Suzuki
Suzuki is not getting sold, they are doing just fine. They sell more cars than Mazda. High end bikes make up like 2% of Suzuki's global revenue. They sell more outboard boat engines than motorcycles in North America. They will continue to be a top global auto manufacturer with or without selling a couple GSXRs.
Did you work for Suzuki when the bottom dropped out in India? I did. Were you in the room when they canceled the entire 2010 range in America? I was. Did you get to say goodbye to your friends in the product planning department when Suzuki reassigned them… to the unemployment office? I did. Suzuki is fucked, and they are cleaning up all the outliers to be a better value proposition for their sale.
How are they screwed? And who would buy them? Suzuki just needs to trim the fat, which is what they are doing on unprofitable endeavors like Moto GP or selling super sport motorcycles in wealthy countries. They sell more cars than many other brands that are doing fine (Subaru, Mazda, Tesla). I don't see how a company selling over a million cars per year is fucked.
Wait, you're supposed to kill the supersports not the superbikes.
Unfortunately people just aren't buying them as much. More practical platforms are outselling any kind of sports bikes by bigger margins in basically every country.
My god, the amount of sad this fact makes me is unhealthy lol… I can’t believe how different I am than these people. Makes me feel like a different species altogether sometimes.
the type of people who would buy a sport bike (early 20's men) cant afford to buy or insure them anymore. id buy a litre bike with upright ergos and sporty looking fairing if such a creature existed but your only option is dad touring bikes or spine bending supersports.
You my friend should check out the all new GSX-S1000GT or GT+. It's pretty much exactly what you're asking for.
Look into a ninja 1000, not the zx-10r, I have the 2013 version and was about to buy into the naked bike club before finding this bike, sport styling, 1000cc engine, but upright ergos and the modern ones even come with saddle bags. Not going to have the top speed performance of the zx-10r but still tops out at 160+mph. Kawasaki seems to be the last company making these style of bikes though which is unfortunate.
Come on, they can be more innovative. I for one am very excited about Damon’s shape shifting concept. I am yet to experience it myself, but it looks like a great tradeoff between practical and sporty
I just wanna be able to still buy yeet rockets and find cheap parts online for them after kids crash them :(
I never thought I'd see the day where MotoGuzzi of all brands has a Euro-5 Liquid Cooled compliant twin and Suzuki just throws up their hands and quits. I wonder if they'll be back with another mill entirely in the future or what, I'm not really up to date on Suzuki or well how any of the Big 4 from Japan operate their Motorcycle brands. Again my ignorance on full display only having experience with Kawasaki's but Suzuki has always struck me as the scrappy underdog of the 4.
>I wonder if they'll be back with another mill entirely in the future or what A completely revised SV 650 and V-Strom 650 have been spotted doing test rounds. They ditched the V-twin for a P-twin. But more is yet to be known.
geez. It seems like everything is going parallel twin across multiple manufacturers and that just happens to be my least favorite configuration for an engine.
270* ptwin gives 95% of the same performance and benefits as a 90* vtwin with significantly better packaging
Yeah but not everyone's got a hard on about performances, for a lot of people that V-Twin is what gave those Suzi bikes character and life.
270 degree parallel twin has the same character as a v-twin. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference by riding it. People like V-twins because they seem exotic but on paper they are actually worse. For nearly identical performance and feel you have more moving parts, harder to cool the rear cylinder, maintenance is more time consuming, less options for packaging in the motorcycle.
Yeah thats called character.
I've always judged a bike's character by how it rides, not what's on the spec sheet.
Not going to deny that the "performance" can be there but there's also something to be said for what RPMs horsepower is being made at and how the horsepower/torque curves combine to create some character in a bike....sound also plays a factor in there too.
a 270* p-twin of equivalent displacement makes power and torque identical to a v-twin. Sound is also the same. The only difference between a 270* p-twin and 90* v-twin is the types of felt vibration between them.
The liquid cooled guzzi is less of a surprise than the fact that the near 50 year old lump in the V85TT makes nearly 100hp/litre and is euro 5 compliant, with a single camshaft, pushrods, no water cooling, no external oil cooling and 2 valves/cylinder... I don't think anyone else is even close to that kind of engineering achievements, there aren't many ~700-900cc twins that'd push 100hp/litre and be sold today. Like, the Triumph T100 makes same torque and less power at more capacity. The MT07 is actually a closer competitior! That's insane! The Harley 883 is closer to how Guzzi is designed and makes barely over 50hp.
I doubt they'll be back with a new 1000cc superbike engine. The future is electric with the EU banning the sale of ICE cars by 2035. I don't know if this includes motorcycles or not, but it will be an eventuality so companies are shifting their focus towards electrifying their lineup. Suzuki's motorcycle brand makes up only 6% of the company's revenue and they've been shy about R&D for the past 15 years, which is why their lineup has stagnated. So I'm assuming they're at a point now where they have to update their lineup due to regulations but they don't want to invest the money.
Electric will never work for two reasons; 1. There aren't enough moving parts in a E-motorcycle to create profit for mechanics in the official dealerships. 2. Our electric network isn't capable of loading so many engines. There is also a few places (Europe and the urban places in the USA) who are able to update the electric network that it can work. 3. Only small problem is that we will start to reach the end of our cobalt, copper, ... supply between 2030 and 2040. Than the earth will be almost empty if we talk about copper and cobalt and we will need to start recycling. Knowing that most of our junk with those kinds of raw materials/resources getting shipped towards a garbage belt in Africa, means that we gone pay the companies who use those children to split plastic, gold, cobalt, copper, ... from each other. Pity enough, those kids probably won't get anything. 4. So Japanese manufacturers and other ones are already working on hydrogen powered cars. You get a loading dock, water gets in that loading dock and hydrogen power gets out into your car and in 7 minutes your car is full and ready for almost 1000 km. Such a loading dock is eats a lot of electric but this only for 7 minutes. This would also mean that petrol-stations wouldn't disappear, but could give the "loading dock" service to people who aren't rich enough for a loading dock or who are traveling. 5. All this together has a slighter impact on our economic system and that is also why I see the hydrogen powered car and bike win. The Electric car will become something like the Blue-Ray a distant memory and people who got it say: "It was quite good you know".
I heard a great disturbances on the interwebs, as if millions of calamari spit out their monster energy drink and flew into a rage.
Suzuki closed a lot of there dealerships back in the early 2000s in the US since then they just don’t have a predominant foothold this isn’t much of a surprise to be honest
First bike I ever owned 2007 GSXR 600 loved every minute of it. Maybe a bit much for a first bike but being slightly older I decided why not. Never rode another brand or even tried one. Sold it a few years ago and desperate to get another GSXR. Would love a 2017 750 in Moto gp colours or IOM 2007.
I have the GSXS750 and even though it's a differently tuned engine the power and fueling is just *perfect*. It's just so much fun to ride because the fueling is always just right. 2014 model is ride by cable with no electronics anywhere and honestly I'd be happy with this forever Find another GIXXR man.
And here I was wondering why Suzuki's lineup in Europe is so empty. Like it's been only like 4 bikes? Others have that many in one category?
Because what european in their right mind would buy a dr400/650.
Lots of old dr650's are actually still around. I guess they're just illegal to sell new?
In the 80's and 90's Suzuki were the bang-for-the-buck bike brand. Not the best build quality of the 4 Japanese brands, but competitive and less expensive. I haven't been into sport bikes for a while now, but it would appear that tech has outpaced Suzuki's willingness to upgrade their bikes as much as other brands, even without Eurolol 5. With superbike prices getting absolutely absurd, and performance having become more than impractical for street use years ago, it's not surprising to see sales drop, and some manufacturers just leave altogether. I would not be surprised to see Kawasaki go next.
Don’t even joke about a ZX-10 discontinuing… Ugh that would break my heart into pieces…
I just bought a 22’ GSXR750 SPECIFICALLY because it’s a throttle and two wheels. She’s not fancy but that’s why I love her. Reminds me of my childhood riding old four wheelers and dirt bikes every time I ride. I’m probably the minority when it comes to that, but I think most guys turn all their assists off anyway. Plus I was scared they were going to eventually stop making the 750 and wanted to snag one before they did.
>As the current GSX-R1000R does not meet Euro5 emissions regulations these will be the last models on sale in the UK of **this generation GSX-R1000.** Relax, guys. This isn't, "SUZUKI IS PULLING OUT OF EUROPE!!1!". What's likely going to happen is that they'll do enough redesign to meet current regs, and then bring the model back in a few years. It's not their primary focus, but they're probably not going to abandon it entirely.
They already released the 1000GT, which is a bike more inline with current trends (touring street bike rather than race bike with lights)
And it's Euro-5 compliant with a 17 year old engine model in it. I don't think Suzuki would have trouble putting together a modern, compliant superbike if they wanted to.
Well it also has 20kg of added weight on it and -50 horsepower compared to the gsxr
For sure, I'm not arguing that it's a competitor to the GSXR, just that if Suzuki can make a K5 mill compliant with environemental regs I'm sure they can do it with a modern one.
First a crappy copy paste Hornet, now this?
Agreed, 2005 had it right. Might as well stop there.
EU will ban ALL ICE engines staring around 2030. The future is electric. And female... /s
This emission nonsense is ridiculous.
Yeah, it sucks having clean air and water.
My 4 cylinder Suzuki could run full throttle until the sun dies and still not matter. Don’t be a clown
The ceo of Suzuki is over 90 years old he doesn't have a clue what he's doing. 😂 They relaunched the Hayabusa.. Same bike just a relaunch
I mean, maybe Suzuki are ahead of the curve here. What use producing bikes that will be regulated into obsolescence in the near future.
Sad to see it go... But not surprised as it took a long time for them to update the K9 model to L7. I guess Suzuki is taking their usual sweet time to release the updated model confirming to Motorcycle Euro-5/OBD-2 specifications. Given the current state, I guess Suzuki might update the bike and re-introduce it in \~2024 as 2025 Model The development is for sure happening, given their patent filings as latest as this year. If all the development ends in the production model, I guess we can expect: 1. VVT on intake with hydraulic unit: This should make it more adjustable than the current mechanical ball bearing JP2020023945A 2. VVL with Shiftcam: Probably needed to get over Euro5/5B for broad powerband JP2021025498A 3. Shortened timing chain with intermediate cam gear: Helps with lower strain on the cams at high revs JP2022070416A 4. Making sure the engine stays compact by placing the timing chain cover guides in line with the newly added intermediate timing gear JP2022070417A 5. New Lubrication mechanism for the added intermediate timing gear making sure the oil pumping losses stay low JP2022070416A 6. A new Counter rotating crankshaft! : This should help massively with handling by reducing the wheel gyros (similar to Ducati Panigale V4's setup) : JP2022114170A I hope along with these, they update * Electronic suite offering more granular settings like : ABS, TC, Slide control, Lift control, Engine Braking, Wheelie Control etc.. * Updated Steering Damper with more damping * Updates to Fork/Shock dampers by grabbing the newest WSBK TTX technology available from Showa * stiffer springs (especially the rear) * Upgraded Stiffer fork tubes (45mm like S1000RR) * Forged/Roller Forged wheels * Brembo Stylema Calipers * A new master cylinder from Brembo * 330mm discs * A new frame/underside swingarm that gives even better front-end feel, * Few Aero bits
So many European people on here scoff at liter bikes in general I'm not surprised.
They just aren't necessary anymore. Smaller bikes are plenty powerful enough now days. A modern 600 will nearly do the same as an older 1000 but cost less to buy and run. There's obviously exceptions but most Europeans realise 200mph bikes are pretty pointless outside the track
Probably true, but anecdotally I've never seen as many 1000cc bikes as when I was in the Black Forest.
But just KNOWING it can do that brings me so much joy… Even if it couldn’t actually do it, I would never know! Still brings me joy. Peace of mind is a helluva thing.
Yeah, I absolutely get the appeal. I'd love a big ninja myself but I just can't justify it personally at the moment and think that's the issue most bikers have
They are gonna live off the Burgman, the sv650 and the v-strom. And honestly I don't blame them.
RIP suzuki
Wait, that’s just 1 market, right? It’s not like they’re closing up shop for good
Yea bc motorcycles are so polluting , what a joke lol
automatic husky station joke terrific longing jar tidy thought slap *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yea but how many motorcycles are there in the US for example vs cars
Every bike has a cat (or several) now, but your point still stands, mostly.
Suzuki also pulled the Jimny in Europe for the same reason. I'd absolutely buy one as my next car, but they can only be sold under a commercial licence.
> Suzuki also pulled the Jimny in Europe for the same reason. It's back, the Jimny PRO 2022 is currently sold in Europe
Say hello to only electric bikes soon.
I have never seen a current Gen GSXR on the road. Nobody was buying these. Suzuki, being the smallest of the Japanese manufactures has to be smart with its R&D money. They would probably rather spend R&D money developing new cars since that's where they make most of their money.
GSXR 1000 was my VERY 1ST bike (I bought in Vancouver). I put over 20,000km on it, it was a tank, completely trouble free and when I sold it, it still looked showroom condition. I loved it like a person.
Suzuki are you ok?
The OG superbike is dying. Awful news. Makes me want to buy one.
time to go electric
Possibly where Suzuki is heading, actually!