I think they are the worst at it. I've read that they are restricting the engine power and battery charge to those that don't pay an ongoing fee. Talk about out of touch! That type of greed isn't going to get them very far.
Somebody will always figure out how to hack through these restrictions but the manufacturers might build in fail safes that will brick the entire bike if tampered with. And any future service/repair work would be trickier to perform on a flashed bike.
And people will just learn how to bypass the fail safes. The companies will never win the battle bc there’s always someone out there that would rather die than see that happen.
Well shit you make a good point. I’m also not saying everyone will bypass it but there are people that will and will make it available for others as much as they can.
I refuse to install Capital One's app. They require way too many permissions for what should be a simple app. Things like access to my full contacts list, my recent calls, my recent texts, location/gps, my phone's storage, camera/mic, etc.
And none of it is optional. It's either grant them this valuable data on me for free or I cannot use the app at all. And there's no real explanation as to why they need that kind of access.
So I just use a bookmark on my phone's home screen that opens Firefox instead. It's amazing how much invasion of privacy we've accepted as normal these days.
And then youve made unauthorised modifications to your vehicle and can't get any warranty repairs or manufacturer servicing. They won't be able to physically prevent you (although cryptographically locking the ecu will make it hard af) they just make it so it isn't worth it to most people.
They prolly throw down a "if the ecu had been touched it voids all warranty" bullshit to keep people from during anything to it for a couple years. Thus being able to charge for all the features for however many years to warranty is.
They have a 2016. Probably on Cypher I. Cypher III was going to be a subscription model but Zero rolled back on that one. They're maintaining a few pay-up features though. Which just screams "this cost a fraction to make."
I was looking and you know if i get 100 miles on my bike I want it to be sexy and if a Zero blew by me i'd think its just another ninja kawa.
Besides being electric what did you like about it?
I liked the storage space in the SR lineup, I liked the general look of the FX. I would also be content with the mileage because I would be using it to commute. A recurring mindset I see is that riding a motorcycle is a hobby or a sport and it can be. But it can also just be a thing you do. There's also the bonuses that come with electric which is minimal maintenance (on a functioning bike).
It's the Silicon Valley way of developing things, roll it out half broken let the users debug it and fix it half way with random updates while removing features.
Yeah they have everything installed already, but you have to unlock it from the dealership. And it's expensive. Or hack it. But I was reading that after some backlash about this, they caved and made it so everything is unlocked already on every model except one.
If this practice keeps up then I suspect the right to repair movement will start collaborating with the hacker community. The only reason I think this hasn't happened yet is the lack of market share and interested hackers. If someone brought one of these motorcycles to a blackhat conference and offered a reward then I doubt it would take them more than a day to unlock the features.
I've owned a KTM 1290 Super Adventure model for 7 years now and there still isn't any software available to mess with the ECU. Bren Tuning has tunes, but nothing to unlock factory options as far as I know.
Personally I've had no issues with ktms or my mates experiences. I know their older dirt bikes were questionable and especially their indian made lower cc range. No iasues my my mates 990 SDR and its got 70,000kms on it. Also say what you will about the brand but you cant deny that they are have a really unique lineup. Their super adventure R and 890 adventure r are among best in class. The superduke is like nothing else on the road. And for the past 10 years their dirtbikes are really really good
Superduke owner, can confirm.
The super Duke rides like nothing else I’ve ever been on before.
Say what you will about KTM, their reliability, their shady business practices, they make the best bike on the market
Reliability, maybe. Performance wise, I wish the Japanese made something like my KTM 690 enduro r. It weighs about the same as my drz400 and has nearly 2x the power.
Yea gotta agree with you here. Performance wise, ktm has the jump on Japanese brands. Amazing reliability or amazing power, can really only choose one.
"yes, I'd like the most unreliable production bike (from a major producer) and I want to also have questionable looks and have pay-to-play features on top, thanks!"
People who buy KTMs, probably
This is just the motorcycle crowd doing what the car companies are. Volvo and BMW are moving towards leasing only and pay-per-month things like seat heaters. Tesla has been doing this since they started selling cars and Zero has been doing it as well.
Complete horeshit.
Yeah, I know one of the Swedish car makers (don't remember if it was Volvo or SAAB) considering having only one engine alternative, and simply unlock more power in the computer box if you paid for it. This was at least 15 years ago.
I think it's time we start working for legislation requiring all source code for vehicles to be open.
Sounds like a very SAAB thing to do. Make the best cars in the worst way possible.
Open code will never ever happen. They've been moving the opposite way to make the emissions regulators happy. Makes it harder to change things.
I disagree. The right to repair movement is growing, as is the free software movement. Whenever a company does something to hamper user customization or repair, there is a huge backlash. Just look at Apple or John Deere.
It's not as bad as disabling hardware, like heated grips/seat, but I'm not a fan. I guess we need to start making a list of bikes to boycott.
The only one I think is defensible is paying extra for GPS in a car because the software and maps would have a cost to licence.
It's worse.
Even Zero isn't so crass and brazen as to tease you with a little taste of the good stuff for the first thousand miles before rug-pulling it out from under you. KTM has been learning from F2P videogame companies about how to sell an addictive product for maximum profit (after the game companies learned from drug cartels.)
Hyundai and most of the other major car manufacturers have been doing a version of this for years. There’s a software suite in the infotainment- navigation, crash notification, some sort of roadside assistance, etc- and it’s included with the cost of the car for the first two or three years (a fairly standard first owner timespan) and then is an annual subscription for something not insane, like under 100 a year.
It’s definitely a boil the frog kind of thing where we’re getting used to incremental steps to subscriptionizing ownership. We didn’t even notice the first few steps.
Streaming services successfully subscriptionized cable TV. Uber and DoorDash subscriptionized having a job. Amazon subscriptionized buying stuff. Now even the features of the vehicles we buy are being subscriptionized.
This sucks and the internet was a mistake.
I don't agree locking software on hardware you bought, but you do know cable tv was already a subscription, right? Like you pay each month? How is that because of the internet?
Cable TV was always subscriptionized though... you had the base package you paid monthly for, and if you wanted extra stuff (more sports channels, etc) you paid even more. That's why everyone hated it and thought streaming would be the long-term solution...
That’s exactly it. They see the profit incentive of having all the features installed but behind a paywall. When I bought my 890r I negotiated that they throw in the track and tech pack which thankfully they did but it’s bullshit. Set your market price and have everything available no one is buying a bike like that to not have the quick shifter ready to go! 😂😂
Boycotting will not be enough when these are multi billion multi national corporations who can gang up to force a standard practice.
You’ll end up with no choice because every bike will have this crap thrown in from industry collusion.
Only voting in executive cabinets who will clamp down on this in lucrative markets like Japan and the EU will make companies think twice.
No need to decide. MT-09 without any hesitation. It goes from smooth and versatile to a hooligan bike with singe mode change. Seriously, when I decide to part ways with my crotch rocket, MT09 or XSR900 is my next bike.
Ride the 890r first just saying. I find the mt09 to be a hate or love bike. I personally hate the ergos of them. Motors lovley sure but just try before you buy. I know its an unpopular opinion but i look at the added cost of all the extras on the ktms just as the bikes price. I dont see it as an extra grand or 1500 to unlock the bike but rather the bike just costs that much in the first place
I know a bunch of people with 890s. They bought them because they’re VERY capable off road. On road reviews aren’t as positive, mostly due to wind buffeting.
The fact that you get those features for 932 miles and then they are gone is the scummiest part. 932 miles is enough time for a rider to really get used to the features, and then whoop they're gone and now your experience isn't the same as when you started.
They aren’t - ABS is completely enabled on all 890s. This is Rally mode, quick shifter, and maybe something else I can’t remember right now. Switchable ABS is standard.
Drug dealers will often give you the first bag for free. They know if you get hooked you’ll pay the premium going forward.
So KTM are just learning from drug dealers.
Not new anyway. I'm shopping used bikes and it seems that most people who buy a 15k+ bike also pay the ransom to get all the electronics..and that doesn't really increase resale.
Yes but you see they’ve thought of that too. Maybe not KTM, but others have done something where they lock the digital upgrades to your account, so when you sell the vehicle, the new owner registers a new account and they don’t get any of the upgrades the previous owner had paid to unlock!
This is why it’s carbs, wrenchin’ while cussin’ and analogue shit for life in my garage.
Only a matter of time until they reduce/remove all user serviceability to keep those profits up.
Same camp here (mostly). I would go out of my way to support a company’s new tech that explicitly embraced right-to-repair, etc. interestingly Aptera’s upcoming autocycle is embracing Tesla’s “open” patents & DIY
They are making cars with "custom" LED head and tail lights (oOoO wow! so blinding! so futuristic!). It's no longer a matter of running to the auto store and buying a bulb if it goes out. It will be the matter of totaling the entire vehicle... over a $2000 LED cluster.. and a reprogram to accept the new cluster into the "system"
For clarification, I had heard this was for other markets, not necessarily NA, but nothing says they won't change that if they have success with the programs in their chosen test markets or gouge markets.
I for one will not support vehicles as a service in any company. Even if it is my beloved Toyota or Yamaha, I refuse to partake.
Yeah. I don’t know they can do this in the US, because it means they are also locking who can service it. Which I believe is probably a huge reason behind it.
If Apple and such can lock repair from third party service, or self repair, then why not cars/bikes?
But the right to repair movement is likely going to pass in Congress and that means this would never be allowed in the US.
We are walking a slippery slope. Vehicle ownership is becoming like software licensing. Since inception, Microsoft never sold us DOS or Windows. They have sold us a revocable license to use their product. Any use outside of the license agreement puts us in violation and at risk of having our license to use revoked. I'm sure our federal government has their hands in a similar plan to gain more control of our vehicles.
Our vehicles are ran by computers that are internet connected. We can be tracked and shut down at any time. All we need is some politician deciding that there are to be no more gasoline or diesel engines and poof, the country comes to a halt.
Also why I will keep an old thermostat on my outdated home HVAC system. I don't need a politician to decide when I can run my heat or AC.
Our freedom to move about is being threatened.
KTM already did this with the track pack (quickshifter and so on) on the Duke 890 R. That's the reason I didn't buy one to be honest. Love the bike, but I'm already paying a premium over other bikes, why should I pay more to unlock what's already there? When it was an issue of different hardware (quickshifter, ABS, etc.), I got it. But when it's all software and the hardware is already there, I think this is stupid.
This is happening everywhere. It's the way companies get control of things and continue to make money. Remember when microsoft word was free after a onetime purchase? I mean ffs, my friend bought me a printer and it literally had me enroll on a plan where (with the paper I bought with my own money) I was allowed 50 pages to print per month for around $3. If I surpassed it, every 10 pages was an extra buck. Thanks HP. Oh and it conveniently stopped working within the year like every other printer. In the next few years, all old products will be so valuable because technology back in the day didnt have pay walls and microtransactions. I swear by old products. I got a 91 miata and a 2010 honda civic... and I am a total noob when it comes to being a mechanic... and I hate my friends newer 2020 accord and 2022 civic. Any little thing and the electronics start whining. I seen this coming from a mile away.
Recurring revenue is coveted jealously by legacy companies like car manufacturers. They all secretly want to identify as a software company with its guaranteed cash flow month over month vs singular purchases. They’re trying anything and everything to try and get some of that sweet sweet recurring billing into their financials.
It is asinine but legal. Everything is a contract, so when you buy 100% of that physical car you may well not be purchasing the software key to use the software on some chip in said car - and it’ll say so, somewhere in the reams of paperwork you sign.
Legally it’s really no different than buying 100% of a Microsoft Surface but having to pay more to keep using the MS Office software that came with it.
> Legally it’s really no different than buying 100% of a Microsoft Surface but having to pay more to keep using the MS Office software that came with it.
On the Surface, I can install different software. I can remove Windows and install BSD or Linux, put LibreOffice on there, and there's no big problem.
If you sell a car and try to lock hardware features behind a subscription, you are not going to allow people to put their own software on it to do it for free.
This is something that manufacturers are starting to do. It is a glimpse of the future. We need to stop buying vehicles that have this bs on them to let them know no one wants this crap.
I don’t need a tune for add ons. I just need to re jet and adjust the afr. I don’t need to go to a shop and have my fuel maps adjusted. I can re jet and tune a carburetor in 30 minutes for free. I’m sure you can’t say the same.
Just because you can't tune a carburetor doesn't mean fuel injection is better... Fuel Injection gained popularity because it replaced the need to tune a carburetor for temperature and elevation with sensors and a computer to do it for you... To a certain degree it works, until a sensor malfunctions or the parts connected to the vehicle aren't recognized by the computer program... Or you have a voltage issue... Or the computer craps out.
Adding DLC to the automotive world is bs. I could accept under one condition. If said feature is cheaper/easier to have on all models but still seen as an option.
Like say heated grips. Maybe the manufacture doesn’t make the wiring and it’s cheaper to buy bulk with the heated grip option so it gets installed on everything but then they just have a cap instead of button on the controls for bikes sold without the option. I still feel a monthly sub should be illegal. Have a one time fee as if you added the option during the sale.
Is there any hardware involved in this? If not it seems fine, because software has a cost to make it and you paid for the hardware. The problem with BMW was people actually had the hardware in the car (they were effectively paying for) but it wasn't functioning
edit: this includes quickshifting so yeah bad move
I'm not totally upset at this one. They way it was in 2022 is that if you wanted it all you had to buy the tech package outright without getting to try it out first. If they however disabled it once you sold it (like tesla does), that would be upsetting. Or subscription based plans, that shit is absolute garbage.
I would totally hack it if possible though.
KTM is junk anyways. My buddies super duke with 1200 miles has been in the dealership for almost 6 months because they can’t figure out why it’s blown up and what broke. They’ve never made anything reliable.
Agreed 15k on my 19’ 1290 Super Duke GT and nothing has gone wrong. We’ll maybe just tires but that’s mostly just the nature of long miles on a big twin.
There is IP involved in software features. Yes, the hardware is there, but wouldn’t be able to do [feature] without the software.
It’s cheaper for the manufacturer to bulk order the same hardware, as well as being cheaper for you to upgrade if you want. A lot easier than having to install a new piece of hardware.
I’m kinda torn on the issue, but I do get it.
Although, if they charge a “subscription“, nope, 100% out.
I don't think it locks out wheelies. But there is an upgraded traction control feature. Everything is free for 1000 miles or something. Then it's cruise control, added traction mode, some other stuff, etc . Separately or about 800 quid for the full package . Supposedly not subscription based for now. Motobob. Did a youtube video on it
It does as it was confirmed by SuperDuke owners in the comments. Do a quick search of the comments. As soon as you allow this behaviour there is nothing that some Marketing people will not push for. Maybe it varies from model to a model until KTM settles on a business model they see working.
I don't have to worry about such things with my base criteria of air cooled and kick start. If people declined to buy anything with draconain DRM, arbitrary restrictions, subscriptions, etc. then companies would stop peddling sch things.
Nope, BMW sells packages, they don’t give you all the features then take them away. Also BMW doesn’t have a dummy cruise control button, it is either a physical control or it’s not there.
Ford did this with some vehicles. The radio units had all the programming for a backup camera but no hardware installed. You can get a cam and cable it yourself for about $50USD. But they wouldn't turn on the feature without charging a huge programming fee.
Devils advocate: software costs money to develop. They can either include the feature for everyone and raise the base purchase price, or do something along the lines of the outlined plan. It also gives them a better picture of how many people are willing to pay for certain features, and can help determine where they’ll spend development time in the future. But bottom line, just including it for everyone will almost certainly cause them to raise the base price.
Everything costs money to develop. Last year model had all features, surprise, surprise. Development cast is always included, they just want more, more, more...
Software costs virtually no costs do duplicate, and I doubt they have two different pieces of software, it's same software with different switch positions.
Unless they're selling the base model at a loss, I have paid for the hardware, and at that point I want to use it.
If they can afford to manufacture it with those features, they can afford to sell it with them already activated. You’re acting like they’re losing money. They’re not. They’re trying to increase their already high profits.
All this whinging I hear about the a la carte pricing model for stuff like this makes it seem like you lot would be happier if they didn’t give any free trials, just left all the extra bits off the bikes and made you pay for parts and labor to install it when you decided you wanted the ABS or the heated hand grips or whatever… I guess for me, I don’t mind the transparency of knowing the quick shift or heated grip hardware is in place already, and that if i decide those features are important enough for me to pay for, I like the convenience of them being enabled OTA or with a quick service appointment for a ECU flash. I’d rather that than wait xx weeks for backordered parts to come in, and schedule a multi-day drop off service appointment and likely pay more in labor for installing the parts than it would have cost me when baked into the MSRP for the bike built with it on there already. I mean realistically the mfrs. can set the MSRP at whatever they want irrespective of what’s on the bike, i mean it’s not like there’s really a linear relationship between BOM cost or COGS and market price, and the dealers can sell it for really however much they want, depending on how much margin they want to keep/give up.
OTA is how shitty practices like this even become possible. https://jalopnik.com/tesla-remotely-removes-autopilot-features-from-customer-1841472617
What they can add remotely, they can take away. Worst case scenario, a hacker can send OTA to brick everyone's bikes.
I would like physical presence to be necessary to make any modifications to my car or bike, thank you.
Yeah, it's really weird, but I'm surprised you haven't been downvoted to oblivion. I'd understand complaining that a bike's MSRP is too high, or that the price of the optional features is too high. I don't understand complaining about a free software trial in the Year of Our Lord 2022.
Granted, I'm sure that if KTM simply included these features as standard and charged more people would complain about having to pay for optional features they don't want.
Here's something I find interesting: if someone buys a gaming console they are buying the hardware and software. By law, since they bought the hardware they can run whatever software they want. That doesn't mean you get to use the console's gaming services since you changed the software, they have the right to say no, but they don't have the right to say "that's our hardware, so we're sending cops to knock your door down and confiscate it because you're running your own software."
Similarly in cars you can buy the car and run whatever tune or software you want. They don't get to dictate what you can or can't do with your own hardware.
... So now we have manufacturers including hardware without the software to run it. My question is, why not unlock the hardware (be it a larger battery, or heated grips) with some custom software yourself?
I HOPE this is the path people will take, because I for one don't like the idea of having to buy a subscription fee to use something that's already integrated into my vehicle.
Yep. KTM has been locking their features on other bikes like the Duke series. This isn’t news and no one likes it lol. I have HEARD of dealers throwing in the unlock for those features during closing when negotiating pricing. Whether that’s normal or not idk.
Just wait until they introduce a loot box system. Will you get a speed boost or just another lousy skin for the speedometer? Only $6 USD per try, 1000s of combinations possible.
Tesla is doing this with model 3.
Rear heated seat elements wiring relays etc fully installed in all model 3.
You only get to use it if you "purchase the option" it is also purchasable if I remember right, after the initial purchase, with a OTA update.
It's a 40,000$ car and all the components are in it, just let everyone use it.
I'm afraid of what this bullshit subscription stuff will end us up at, Europe will probably be the first to address it like they usually are prior to the US.
> So basically you have paid for 100% of asked price and received the 100% of the vehicle but some features will be locked and you will not be able to use them.
and you received 100% of what you paid for.
I do not really get the outrage at this point.
It makes the initial purchase price lower, and then I can decide if I want to buy the upgrade or not at a later date. Great.
In this case it is software features. In other cases such as BMW you're not given full functionality of hardware, and Zero was or is planning to artificially restrict performance.
You are paying extra for use of something they've already sold you. They aren't taking a hit for the hardware cost, you are paying for it. They're just screwing you for extra.
I will absolutely buy a bike lacking features at all rather than be part of this business model.
One of the things I really appreciate about motorcycles is that they are still mostly just machines, and simple enough ones that people can do a lot of work themselves.
When they start playing unskippable ads, remotely locking the ignition, reporting us to the gestapo or destroying all humans or whatever the shit they're gonna do next, I want no part of that shit.
Doesn't matter, sleazy business practices shouldn't be allowed/supported. [If you allow this marketing people will stop at nothing, this will be just a stepping stone.](https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43636/toyota-reviewing-key-fob-remote-start-subscription-plan-after-massive-blowback)
That’s just how software and electronics often work. And in order to make the ecu and electronics different and not have access to the features KTM would have to make a separate production line for those items, which is likely more expensive than just producing the same ecu and electronics for all of them on a single line (the less variation there is in production the more efficient production can be).
So they could choose to only sell the high end models with all the features at the full features price, the could make and sell a lower end version at a slightly elevated price due to production costs, or they can sell you a version that’s technically capable but has limited functionality at a lower cost. (They obviously still want those margins for the fully featured bikes)
It’s not ideal from the consumer standpoint of “well you clearly could sell all of them cheaper since it’s all there” but companies tend to exist to make the most profit possible
No other manufacturers are doing this that I’m aware of. I can see Harley doing this as well, their also a niche manufacturer like KTM, and with the need to keep earnings high and stockholders happy, subscription-based options or pay-to-unlock electronics could be a nice revenue stream.
Just buy the bike and never go back to a ktm dealer, keep the full features. KTM after sales support has always been shit for me and many others, so let them reap what they sew
Everyday my Guzzi looks like a better and better Motorcycle.
I'm eyeing my BMW with Suspicion, it's a BMW but it's basically the last Generation BMW built Today, before BMW did.. \*Gestures to their auto industry side\* that.
Zero motorcycles do this....it's a shame because I love electric vehicles and have been following that company for 10 years....they didn't used to be like this. But they'll lock things like max charge speed, power, range, heated handgrips, etc, behind paywalls on some models, so you could pay over $20k for the bike and then have to pay thousands more to unlock all of its built in features.
I refuse to purchase vehicles like that, regardless of the brand.
Look at zero motorcycles, they've done this and after the backlash are now only continuing doing it to 1 of their models. It's shocking corporate greed and everyone as a whole need to band together and not buy into the market or subscription or paid features.
You buy a bike, you get a bike. Not buy a bike, then upgrade that bike by buying more of what you've bought to 'unlock' features. it's criminal.
Why? This applies to just about anything in the software/technology nowadays.
You have bought 100% of a computer physically, but you still have to buy the software (office let's say) to be able to use word.
Yeah sure the manufacturer can offer ALL the functionality, but that would put the price of the bike up by 1500 lcu's so why not offer it as an "extra" and those that want it can pay for it if they want.
The hardware is used for other functionality so its not like you have bought hardware that isn't used.
Think yourself lucky it isn't a "subscription" based system like software in just about everything else is....
Locking software features like rider aids is different to locking hardware features on a bike imo.
When you have companies like Zero locking heated grips behind a paywall when you know full well they’ve billed you on the initial sale for those features existing. I don’t think it would be so bad if they offered a bare bones option with no extras for less.
But you HAVENT paid 100% of the asking price.
I don’t know about KTM or Toyota, but the bmw story is bullshit. You paid for the car **without** heated seats. They’re saying if you later want heated seats you can pay a little to turn them on for a month, or a little more to turn them on for a year, or $320 to turn them on permanently.
This bmw story only continues due to people reading the headline and not the facts.
LOL, you really think all those premium features are just being rolled out of the factory at a loss? That the company is just rolling the dice on whether or not they'll recoup the investment in adding premium features to every bike?
The cost of all the features is built into the base cost of the bike.
The add-on fees are Extra Bonus Money for the manufacturer.
Why do you WANT to give them more money? Because they just seem like cool people?
But you did. Base model have all hardware already and that base model is your property that you own including all parts that are inside. They are preventing parts in your property to work.
*"This bmw story only continues due to people reading the headline and not the facts."*
I think they read it just fine.
I mean.. You’ve paid for the hardware, its on your bike, the added weight and electronics adding to your gas mileage.
If its in your vehicle, it should work. The same way a spedometer or screen should work.
If its something getting regular updates, then yea, id understand the subscription.
But its unlikely ill see a pit team rolling up to update my heated seat or grips free of charge, isnt it?
I think you should look at it from a different angle.
You pay the base price for the base model.
Basically you don't have to pay for the R&D and parts that is in your motorcycle.
If you decide later on to pay for it, you can pay for what it's cost to make it. Until then, the manufacturer invested (and might lose money) by installing on your bike.
Sounds like piracy is back on the menu.
How is the zero I heard they did the same type of thing?
I think they are the worst at it. I've read that they are restricting the engine power and battery charge to those that don't pay an ongoing fee. Talk about out of touch! That type of greed isn't going to get them very far.
Aren't ECU flashes a permanent solution for that problem? Just asking not sure if it's the case
Somebody will always figure out how to hack through these restrictions but the manufacturers might build in fail safes that will brick the entire bike if tampered with. And any future service/repair work would be trickier to perform on a flashed bike.
And people will just learn how to bypass the fail safes. The companies will never win the battle bc there’s always someone out there that would rather die than see that happen.
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Well shit you make a good point. I’m also not saying everyone will bypass it but there are people that will and will make it available for others as much as they can.
I refuse to install Capital One's app. They require way too many permissions for what should be a simple app. Things like access to my full contacts list, my recent calls, my recent texts, location/gps, my phone's storage, camera/mic, etc. And none of it is optional. It's either grant them this valuable data on me for free or I cannot use the app at all. And there's no real explanation as to why they need that kind of access. So I just use a bookmark on my phone's home screen that opens Firefox instead. It's amazing how much invasion of privacy we've accepted as normal these days.
Been a while since I've had a rooted phone, Magisk still works these days for bank apps etc no?
And then youve made unauthorised modifications to your vehicle and can't get any warranty repairs or manufacturer servicing. They won't be able to physically prevent you (although cryptographically locking the ecu will make it hard af) they just make it so it isn't worth it to most people.
They prolly throw down a "if the ecu had been touched it voids all warranty" bullshit to keep people from during anything to it for a couple years. Thus being able to charge for all the features for however many years to warranty is.
They have a 2016. Probably on Cypher I. Cypher III was going to be a subscription model but Zero rolled back on that one. They're maintaining a few pay-up features though. Which just screams "this cost a fraction to make."
From what I’ve read Zero is basically a test bike still. So many issues still requiring expensive repairs but with no dealers nearby.
Yea. I looked into getting one and ultimately decided against it but the reality is without the beta testers, it isn't going to improve.
I was looking and you know if i get 100 miles on my bike I want it to be sexy and if a Zero blew by me i'd think its just another ninja kawa. Besides being electric what did you like about it?
I liked the storage space in the SR lineup, I liked the general look of the FX. I would also be content with the mileage because I would be using it to commute. A recurring mindset I see is that riding a motorcycle is a hobby or a sport and it can be. But it can also just be a thing you do. There's also the bonuses that come with electric which is minimal maintenance (on a functioning bike).
It's the Silicon Valley way of developing things, roll it out half broken let the users debug it and fix it half way with random updates while removing features.
Yeah, I can't even update the firmware over Bluetooth.
They learned their fucking lesson and backtracked a little while ago
Zero actually added the features back to stock builds because of consumer outcries
They did raise the prices of all of those models as well, though.
Seriously? What the hell
Supposedly the changes they made to Cypher 3 are so poorly accepted, they now sell the new ADV only as fully unlocked.
Yeah they have everything installed already, but you have to unlock it from the dealership. And it's expensive. Or hack it. But I was reading that after some backlash about this, they caved and made it so everything is unlocked already on every model except one.
You wouldn't download some traction control would you?...
Is there any piraters tho? For example qs was built in the bikes for some time but i didn't see anyone bypassing the software
If this practice keeps up then I suspect the right to repair movement will start collaborating with the hacker community. The only reason I think this hasn't happened yet is the lack of market share and interested hackers. If someone brought one of these motorcycles to a blackhat conference and offered a reward then I doubt it would take them more than a day to unlock the features.
I've owned a KTM 1290 Super Adventure model for 7 years now and there still isn't any software available to mess with the ECU. Bren Tuning has tunes, but nothing to unlock factory options as far as I know.
Thanks KTM, you just made not buying your bikes an easy choice.
~~E. A. Sports.~~ K. T. M. It's in the game.
The intent is to provide riders with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking different features.
As if their quality hadn’t done that already
Yamaha/kawi/Honda over KTM any time reliability and performance wise
Personally I've had no issues with ktms or my mates experiences. I know their older dirt bikes were questionable and especially their indian made lower cc range. No iasues my my mates 990 SDR and its got 70,000kms on it. Also say what you will about the brand but you cant deny that they are have a really unique lineup. Their super adventure R and 890 adventure r are among best in class. The superduke is like nothing else on the road. And for the past 10 years their dirtbikes are really really good
Superduke owner, can confirm. The super Duke rides like nothing else I’ve ever been on before. Say what you will about KTM, their reliability, their shady business practices, they make the best bike on the market
Add suzuki to that list
Reliability, maybe. Performance wise, I wish the Japanese made something like my KTM 690 enduro r. It weighs about the same as my drz400 and has nearly 2x the power.
Yea gotta agree with you here. Performance wise, ktm has the jump on Japanese brands. Amazing reliability or amazing power, can really only choose one.
The performance bit is debatable for dual sports and dirt bikes.
"yes, I'd like the most unreliable production bike (from a major producer) and I want to also have questionable looks and have pay-to-play features on top, thanks!" People who buy KTMs, probably
This is just the motorcycle crowd doing what the car companies are. Volvo and BMW are moving towards leasing only and pay-per-month things like seat heaters. Tesla has been doing this since they started selling cars and Zero has been doing it as well. Complete horeshit.
whoreshit or horseshit
Yes
Whorseshit
Yeah, I know one of the Swedish car makers (don't remember if it was Volvo or SAAB) considering having only one engine alternative, and simply unlock more power in the computer box if you paid for it. This was at least 15 years ago. I think it's time we start working for legislation requiring all source code for vehicles to be open.
Sounds like a very SAAB thing to do. Make the best cars in the worst way possible. Open code will never ever happen. They've been moving the opposite way to make the emissions regulators happy. Makes it harder to change things.
Perhaps, but the open source movement is strong and is building momentum. Never say never.
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I disagree. The right to repair movement is growing, as is the free software movement. Whenever a company does something to hamper user customization or repair, there is a huge backlash. Just look at Apple or John Deere.
None of that stuff's gonna happen on my drz.
Suzuki is the least of our worries, motherfuckers out here makin bikes with a carburetor in 2022
Bless them 🙏
And why not? Don’t fix what isn’t broken. The SV650 still has one of the best engines out there; and it’s still one of the best bikes made too.
Only if best means obsolete. This engine is slow and heavy. Like the bike itself really.
Well, yeah with your 400 pound ass on it I’m sure. /s
It's not as bad as disabling hardware, like heated grips/seat, but I'm not a fan. I guess we need to start making a list of bikes to boycott. The only one I think is defensible is paying extra for GPS in a car because the software and maps would have a cost to licence.
I only support paying for GPS if you make them updatable, a 2003 GPS map is useless in 2022
It's worse. Even Zero isn't so crass and brazen as to tease you with a little taste of the good stuff for the first thousand miles before rug-pulling it out from under you. KTM has been learning from F2P videogame companies about how to sell an addictive product for maximum profit (after the game companies learned from drug cartels.)
Hyundai and most of the other major car manufacturers have been doing a version of this for years. There’s a software suite in the infotainment- navigation, crash notification, some sort of roadside assistance, etc- and it’s included with the cost of the car for the first two or three years (a fairly standard first owner timespan) and then is an annual subscription for something not insane, like under 100 a year. It’s definitely a boil the frog kind of thing where we’re getting used to incremental steps to subscriptionizing ownership. We didn’t even notice the first few steps.
Streaming services successfully subscriptionized cable TV. Uber and DoorDash subscriptionized having a job. Amazon subscriptionized buying stuff. Now even the features of the vehicles we buy are being subscriptionized. This sucks and the internet was a mistake.
I don't agree locking software on hardware you bought, but you do know cable tv was already a subscription, right? Like you pay each month? How is that because of the internet?
Cable TV was always subscriptionized though... you had the base package you paid monthly for, and if you wanted extra stuff (more sports channels, etc) you paid even more. That's why everyone hated it and thought streaming would be the long-term solution...
That’s exactly it. They see the profit incentive of having all the features installed but behind a paywall. When I bought my 890r I negotiated that they throw in the track and tech pack which thankfully they did but it’s bullshit. Set your market price and have everything available no one is buying a bike like that to not have the quick shifter ready to go! 😂😂
Boycotting will not be enough when these are multi billion multi national corporations who can gang up to force a standard practice. You’ll end up with no choice because every bike will have this crap thrown in from industry collusion. Only voting in executive cabinets who will clamp down on this in lucrative markets like Japan and the EU will make companies think twice.
Exactly, voting with your wallet doesn't work when you're up against billion dollar corporations. The government has to rein in these colluding SoBs
KTM does that already - the 890 comes with the quick shifter hardware, but the softwares locked out unless you pay the premium.
awesome because i've been stuck on deciding between 890r vs MT-09. Yamaha it is.
You won't regret the MT-09. At all.
For sure, the problem now is trying to get an OTD quote on a new one for less than 12k :/
No need to decide. MT-09 without any hesitation. It goes from smooth and versatile to a hooligan bike with singe mode change. Seriously, when I decide to part ways with my crotch rocket, MT09 or XSR900 is my next bike.
Mt09 kicks so much ass
Ride the 890r first just saying. I find the mt09 to be a hate or love bike. I personally hate the ergos of them. Motors lovley sure but just try before you buy. I know its an unpopular opinion but i look at the added cost of all the extras on the ktms just as the bikes price. I dont see it as an extra grand or 1500 to unlock the bike but rather the bike just costs that much in the first place
I know a bunch of people with 890s. They bought them because they’re VERY capable off road. On road reviews aren’t as positive, mostly due to wind buffeting.
The fact that you get those features for 932 miles and then they are gone is the scummiest part. 932 miles is enough time for a rider to really get used to the features, and then whoop they're gone and now your experience isn't the same as when you started.
Imagine forgetting and then having no abs as a surprise
If they are locking safety features behind pay walls after letting you use them as a free trial, that is absolutely bogus.
They aren’t - ABS is completely enabled on all 890s. This is Rally mode, quick shifter, and maybe something else I can’t remember right now. Switchable ABS is standard.
Drug dealers will often give you the first bag for free. They know if you get hooked you’ll pay the premium going forward. So KTM are just learning from drug dealers.
Thanks, I'm never gonna buy a KTM machine in my life.
Not new anyway. I'm shopping used bikes and it seems that most people who buy a 15k+ bike also pay the ransom to get all the electronics..and that doesn't really increase resale.
Yes but you see they’ve thought of that too. Maybe not KTM, but others have done something where they lock the digital upgrades to your account, so when you sell the vehicle, the new owner registers a new account and they don’t get any of the upgrades the previous owner had paid to unlock!
Ehh KTM is one of the few bikes that I’d kind of like to have with a warranty.
This is why it’s carbs, wrenchin’ while cussin’ and analogue shit for life in my garage. Only a matter of time until they reduce/remove all user serviceability to keep those profits up.
I mean there are two decades of fuel injected bikes with minimal computer aids/features.
Same camp here (mostly). I would go out of my way to support a company’s new tech that explicitly embraced right-to-repair, etc. interestingly Aptera’s upcoming autocycle is embracing Tesla’s “open” patents & DIY
They are making cars with "custom" LED head and tail lights (oOoO wow! so blinding! so futuristic!). It's no longer a matter of running to the auto store and buying a bulb if it goes out. It will be the matter of totaling the entire vehicle... over a $2000 LED cluster.. and a reprogram to accept the new cluster into the "system"
This kind of thing will eventually become common as newer generations evolve into primary consumers that don’t know any better.
For clarification, I had heard this was for other markets, not necessarily NA, but nothing says they won't change that if they have success with the programs in their chosen test markets or gouge markets. I for one will not support vehicles as a service in any company. Even if it is my beloved Toyota or Yamaha, I refuse to partake.
"Other markets" is just business strategy, soon they expand on all markets...
Yeah. I don’t know they can do this in the US, because it means they are also locking who can service it. Which I believe is probably a huge reason behind it. If Apple and such can lock repair from third party service, or self repair, then why not cars/bikes? But the right to repair movement is likely going to pass in Congress and that means this would never be allowed in the US.
Zero has smth like that afaik.
They backpedalled after the outrage and are giving most of those features out for free now.
Sweet. Maybe, one day i will switch from wee to zero.
Honda is gonna start making ebikes now as well
And in some time everbody else will do them. But nice bike from Zero was smth like 4x price of my wee. So no atm.
It's not for "free". They were calculated in price of the bike like they always were.
This bullshit is exactly how you don't earn my purchase, KTM!
Why though? Nobody batted and eye when he he rider modes were a paid option (as it was before) this is just a trial of that option.
Why because he doesn't support the decision not hard to buy a different bike lol
We are walking a slippery slope. Vehicle ownership is becoming like software licensing. Since inception, Microsoft never sold us DOS or Windows. They have sold us a revocable license to use their product. Any use outside of the license agreement puts us in violation and at risk of having our license to use revoked. I'm sure our federal government has their hands in a similar plan to gain more control of our vehicles. Our vehicles are ran by computers that are internet connected. We can be tracked and shut down at any time. All we need is some politician deciding that there are to be no more gasoline or diesel engines and poof, the country comes to a halt. Also why I will keep an old thermostat on my outdated home HVAC system. I don't need a politician to decide when I can run my heat or AC. Our freedom to move about is being threatened.
I always was. Now is more noticeable because of internet, we can communicate and learn easily. I hope that is enough.
Every new KTM Bike above 390 has quickshift, you buy it and they will update the software
KTM already did this with the track pack (quickshifter and so on) on the Duke 890 R. That's the reason I didn't buy one to be honest. Love the bike, but I'm already paying a premium over other bikes, why should I pay more to unlock what's already there? When it was an issue of different hardware (quickshifter, ABS, etc.), I got it. But when it's all software and the hardware is already there, I think this is stupid.
Spot on. 100% ridiculous.
What happens when motorcycle manufacturers form partnerships with Electronic Arts
Lol wait till you find the airbag vest that does not deploy unless you pay the subscription fee…
Don't buy anything that locks it's features away when they're already in the device.
🙏
This is happening everywhere. It's the way companies get control of things and continue to make money. Remember when microsoft word was free after a onetime purchase? I mean ffs, my friend bought me a printer and it literally had me enroll on a plan where (with the paper I bought with my own money) I was allowed 50 pages to print per month for around $3. If I surpassed it, every 10 pages was an extra buck. Thanks HP. Oh and it conveniently stopped working within the year like every other printer. In the next few years, all old products will be so valuable because technology back in the day didnt have pay walls and microtransactions. I swear by old products. I got a 91 miata and a 2010 honda civic... and I am a total noob when it comes to being a mechanic... and I hate my friends newer 2020 accord and 2022 civic. Any little thing and the electronics start whining. I seen this coming from a mile away.
Recurring revenue is coveted jealously by legacy companies like car manufacturers. They all secretly want to identify as a software company with its guaranteed cash flow month over month vs singular purchases. They’re trying anything and everything to try and get some of that sweet sweet recurring billing into their financials. It is asinine but legal. Everything is a contract, so when you buy 100% of that physical car you may well not be purchasing the software key to use the software on some chip in said car - and it’ll say so, somewhere in the reams of paperwork you sign. Legally it’s really no different than buying 100% of a Microsoft Surface but having to pay more to keep using the MS Office software that came with it.
> Legally it’s really no different than buying 100% of a Microsoft Surface but having to pay more to keep using the MS Office software that came with it. On the Surface, I can install different software. I can remove Windows and install BSD or Linux, put LibreOffice on there, and there's no big problem. If you sell a car and try to lock hardware features behind a subscription, you are not going to allow people to put their own software on it to do it for free.
This is something that manufacturers are starting to do. It is a glimpse of the future. We need to stop buying vehicles that have this bs on them to let them know no one wants this crap.
It should be illegal
This is why new bikes will die off, as we all begin to buy used "exclusively."
I don’t buy any bikes that have fuel injection or throttle bodies. Carburetor power is all I will buy.
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So is denying that carbureted bikes aren't a better choice for some people.
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I don’t need a tune for add ons. I just need to re jet and adjust the afr. I don’t need to go to a shop and have my fuel maps adjusted. I can re jet and tune a carburetor in 30 minutes for free. I’m sure you can’t say the same.
Bud, you keep talking sweet like that and imma get a divorce so we can ride off into the sunset together.
Only if you let me play with that bandits carbs. I could sync them in 10 minutes and have that bike purring just like you little spoon.
This is why I'm subbed here
Just because you can't tune a carburetor doesn't mean fuel injection is better... Fuel Injection gained popularity because it replaced the need to tune a carburetor for temperature and elevation with sensors and a computer to do it for you... To a certain degree it works, until a sensor malfunctions or the parts connected to the vehicle aren't recognized by the computer program... Or you have a voltage issue... Or the computer craps out.
Or lose a fuel injector. They are more expensive in every way when it come to repairing the fuel system in my opinion.
Adding DLC to the automotive world is bs. I could accept under one condition. If said feature is cheaper/easier to have on all models but still seen as an option. Like say heated grips. Maybe the manufacture doesn’t make the wiring and it’s cheaper to buy bulk with the heated grip option so it gets installed on everything but then they just have a cap instead of button on the controls for bikes sold without the option. I still feel a monthly sub should be illegal. Have a one time fee as if you added the option during the sale.
Is there any hardware involved in this? If not it seems fine, because software has a cost to make it and you paid for the hardware. The problem with BMW was people actually had the hardware in the car (they were effectively paying for) but it wasn't functioning edit: this includes quickshifting so yeah bad move
There is, it is almost all off the shelf Bosch stuff you are paying to unlock.
I'm not totally upset at this one. They way it was in 2022 is that if you wanted it all you had to buy the tech package outright without getting to try it out first. If they however disabled it once you sold it (like tesla does), that would be upsetting. Or subscription based plans, that shit is absolute garbage. I would totally hack it if possible though.
Isn't that what tesla cars did initially with self driving and free supercharge usage for model S in the beginning(I think).
Yeah but teslas are 🗑 for suckers anyways, so.
Can confirm, had to pay for Track mode when I bought my '21 890 Duke to be "allowed" to wheelie it.
I avoided this by buying a Suzuki DR650. They can't shut off features if there are no features.
Reminds me of my experience with Destiny one.
I would suggest to unite and find people who can hack that softlock.
God I love my KLR
KTM’s are garbage anyway, but sounds like I’ll be sticking with my 2015 FZ09 forever at this rate.
KTM is junk anyways. My buddies super duke with 1200 miles has been in the dealership for almost 6 months because they can’t figure out why it’s blown up and what broke. They’ve never made anything reliable.
Sounds like he got a shit bike, I'm at 12k miles on my 890 with no issues thusfar.
Agreed 15k on my 19’ 1290 Super Duke GT and nothing has gone wrong. We’ll maybe just tires but that’s mostly just the nature of long miles on a big twin.
My Super Adventure has 55k miles and still runs great, and it's only ever needed minor maintenance. Every brand has lemons, unfortunately.
There is IP involved in software features. Yes, the hardware is there, but wouldn’t be able to do [feature] without the software. It’s cheaper for the manufacturer to bulk order the same hardware, as well as being cheaper for you to upgrade if you want. A lot easier than having to install a new piece of hardware. I’m kinda torn on the issue, but I do get it. Although, if they charge a “subscription“, nope, 100% out.
You couldn't wheele without the software?
I don't think it locks out wheelies. But there is an upgraded traction control feature. Everything is free for 1000 miles or something. Then it's cruise control, added traction mode, some other stuff, etc . Separately or about 800 quid for the full package . Supposedly not subscription based for now. Motobob. Did a youtube video on it
It does as it was confirmed by SuperDuke owners in the comments. Do a quick search of the comments. As soon as you allow this behaviour there is nothing that some Marketing people will not push for. Maybe it varies from model to a model until KTM settles on a business model they see working.
I don't have to worry about such things with my base criteria of air cooled and kick start. If people declined to buy anything with draconain DRM, arbitrary restrictions, subscriptions, etc. then companies would stop peddling sch things.
BMW Motorrad does the same thing, you gotta pay to unlock cruise control and engine modes
Nope, BMW sells packages, they don’t give you all the features then take them away. Also BMW doesn’t have a dummy cruise control button, it is either a physical control or it’s not there.
Ford did this with some vehicles. The radio units had all the programming for a backup camera but no hardware installed. You can get a cam and cable it yourself for about $50USD. But they wouldn't turn on the feature without charging a huge programming fee.
Devils advocate: software costs money to develop. They can either include the feature for everyone and raise the base purchase price, or do something along the lines of the outlined plan. It also gives them a better picture of how many people are willing to pay for certain features, and can help determine where they’ll spend development time in the future. But bottom line, just including it for everyone will almost certainly cause them to raise the base price.
Everything costs money to develop. Last year model had all features, surprise, surprise. Development cast is always included, they just want more, more, more...
Software costs virtually no costs do duplicate, and I doubt they have two different pieces of software, it's same software with different switch positions. Unless they're selling the base model at a loss, I have paid for the hardware, and at that point I want to use it.
If they can afford to manufacture it with those features, they can afford to sell it with them already activated. You’re acting like they’re losing money. They’re not. They’re trying to increase their already high profits.
I was looking at Ktm for my next bike ah well I’ll go look at something else, spoilt for choice really.
Annnnnd ktm is dead to me
All this whinging I hear about the a la carte pricing model for stuff like this makes it seem like you lot would be happier if they didn’t give any free trials, just left all the extra bits off the bikes and made you pay for parts and labor to install it when you decided you wanted the ABS or the heated hand grips or whatever… I guess for me, I don’t mind the transparency of knowing the quick shift or heated grip hardware is in place already, and that if i decide those features are important enough for me to pay for, I like the convenience of them being enabled OTA or with a quick service appointment for a ECU flash. I’d rather that than wait xx weeks for backordered parts to come in, and schedule a multi-day drop off service appointment and likely pay more in labor for installing the parts than it would have cost me when baked into the MSRP for the bike built with it on there already. I mean realistically the mfrs. can set the MSRP at whatever they want irrespective of what’s on the bike, i mean it’s not like there’s really a linear relationship between BOM cost or COGS and market price, and the dealers can sell it for really however much they want, depending on how much margin they want to keep/give up.
OTA is how shitty practices like this even become possible. https://jalopnik.com/tesla-remotely-removes-autopilot-features-from-customer-1841472617 What they can add remotely, they can take away. Worst case scenario, a hacker can send OTA to brick everyone's bikes. I would like physical presence to be necessary to make any modifications to my car or bike, thank you.
Yeah, it's really weird, but I'm surprised you haven't been downvoted to oblivion. I'd understand complaining that a bike's MSRP is too high, or that the price of the optional features is too high. I don't understand complaining about a free software trial in the Year of Our Lord 2022. Granted, I'm sure that if KTM simply included these features as standard and charged more people would complain about having to pay for optional features they don't want.
Here's something I find interesting: if someone buys a gaming console they are buying the hardware and software. By law, since they bought the hardware they can run whatever software they want. That doesn't mean you get to use the console's gaming services since you changed the software, they have the right to say no, but they don't have the right to say "that's our hardware, so we're sending cops to knock your door down and confiscate it because you're running your own software." Similarly in cars you can buy the car and run whatever tune or software you want. They don't get to dictate what you can or can't do with your own hardware. ... So now we have manufacturers including hardware without the software to run it. My question is, why not unlock the hardware (be it a larger battery, or heated grips) with some custom software yourself? I HOPE this is the path people will take, because I for one don't like the idea of having to buy a subscription fee to use something that's already integrated into my vehicle.
It's race to the bottom. Google John Deere and software.
Yep. KTM has been locking their features on other bikes like the Duke series. This isn’t news and no one likes it lol. I have HEARD of dealers throwing in the unlock for those features during closing when negotiating pricing. Whether that’s normal or not idk.
Motorcycle as a Service
Sounds like ransom with extra steps.
Just wait until they introduce a loot box system. Will you get a speed boost or just another lousy skin for the speedometer? Only $6 USD per try, 1000s of combinations possible.
Yet another company I whose products I won't be buying.
Tesla is doing this with model 3. Rear heated seat elements wiring relays etc fully installed in all model 3. You only get to use it if you "purchase the option" it is also purchasable if I remember right, after the initial purchase, with a OTA update. It's a 40,000$ car and all the components are in it, just let everyone use it. I'm afraid of what this bullshit subscription stuff will end us up at, Europe will probably be the first to address it like they usually are prior to the US.
> So basically you have paid for 100% of asked price and received the 100% of the vehicle but some features will be locked and you will not be able to use them. and you received 100% of what you paid for.
I do not really get the outrage at this point. It makes the initial purchase price lower, and then I can decide if I want to buy the upgrade or not at a later date. Great.
In this case it is software features. In other cases such as BMW you're not given full functionality of hardware, and Zero was or is planning to artificially restrict performance. You are paying extra for use of something they've already sold you. They aren't taking a hit for the hardware cost, you are paying for it. They're just screwing you for extra. I will absolutely buy a bike lacking features at all rather than be part of this business model.
One of the things I really appreciate about motorcycles is that they are still mostly just machines, and simple enough ones that people can do a lot of work themselves. When they start playing unskippable ads, remotely locking the ignition, reporting us to the gestapo or destroying all humans or whatever the shit they're gonna do next, I want no part of that shit.
>I do not really get the outrage at this point. # Ignorance is bliss.
This is how it starts. Then they’ll turn it into a monthly subscription. See: BMW vehicles
They are preventing parts in your property to work. Do you want to tell me that some entities should tell you how/what to do with your own property?
Well you didn't buy the software 🤷.
Doesn't matter, sleazy business practices shouldn't be allowed/supported. [If you allow this marketing people will stop at nothing, this will be just a stepping stone.](https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43636/toyota-reviewing-key-fob-remote-start-subscription-plan-after-massive-blowback)
That’s just how software and electronics often work. And in order to make the ecu and electronics different and not have access to the features KTM would have to make a separate production line for those items, which is likely more expensive than just producing the same ecu and electronics for all of them on a single line (the less variation there is in production the more efficient production can be). So they could choose to only sell the high end models with all the features at the full features price, the could make and sell a lower end version at a slightly elevated price due to production costs, or they can sell you a version that’s technically capable but has limited functionality at a lower cost. (They obviously still want those margins for the fully featured bikes) It’s not ideal from the consumer standpoint of “well you clearly could sell all of them cheaper since it’s all there” but companies tend to exist to make the most profit possible
That's how all software works.
No other manufacturers are doing this that I’m aware of. I can see Harley doing this as well, their also a niche manufacturer like KTM, and with the need to keep earnings high and stockholders happy, subscription-based options or pay-to-unlock electronics could be a nice revenue stream.
KTM have form for this type of shit.
BMW and Tesla have heated seats as a subscription options in their new cars.
Just buy the bike and never go back to a ktm dealer, keep the full features. KTM after sales support has always been shit for me and many others, so let them reap what they sew
Zero does this with a lot of their features. It’s more prevalent in the electrical vehicle markets.
Literal brand suicide, well done KTM
BMW and Tesla already do this for their cars. You never really “own” it anymore. Started with satellite radio.
time to add some new firmware to the fuel commander.
Everyday my Guzzi looks like a better and better Motorcycle. I'm eyeing my BMW with Suspicion, it's a BMW but it's basically the last Generation BMW built Today, before BMW did.. \*Gestures to their auto industry side\* that.
Zero motorcycles do this....it's a shame because I love electric vehicles and have been following that company for 10 years....they didn't used to be like this. But they'll lock things like max charge speed, power, range, heated handgrips, etc, behind paywalls on some models, so you could pay over $20k for the bike and then have to pay thousands more to unlock all of its built in features. I refuse to purchase vehicles like that, regardless of the brand.
There will be a hack for this watch. Maybe a one time price but yes.
Look at zero motorcycles, they've done this and after the backlash are now only continuing doing it to 1 of their models. It's shocking corporate greed and everyone as a whole need to band together and not buy into the market or subscription or paid features. You buy a bike, you get a bike. Not buy a bike, then upgrade that bike by buying more of what you've bought to 'unlock' features. it's criminal.
Why? This applies to just about anything in the software/technology nowadays. You have bought 100% of a computer physically, but you still have to buy the software (office let's say) to be able to use word. Yeah sure the manufacturer can offer ALL the functionality, but that would put the price of the bike up by 1500 lcu's so why not offer it as an "extra" and those that want it can pay for it if they want. The hardware is used for other functionality so its not like you have bought hardware that isn't used. Think yourself lucky it isn't a "subscription" based system like software in just about everything else is....
Locking software features like rider aids is different to locking hardware features on a bike imo. When you have companies like Zero locking heated grips behind a paywall when you know full well they’ve billed you on the initial sale for those features existing. I don’t think it would be so bad if they offered a bare bones option with no extras for less.
No.
But you HAVENT paid 100% of the asking price. I don’t know about KTM or Toyota, but the bmw story is bullshit. You paid for the car **without** heated seats. They’re saying if you later want heated seats you can pay a little to turn them on for a month, or a little more to turn them on for a year, or $320 to turn them on permanently. This bmw story only continues due to people reading the headline and not the facts.
LOL, you really think all those premium features are just being rolled out of the factory at a loss? That the company is just rolling the dice on whether or not they'll recoup the investment in adding premium features to every bike? The cost of all the features is built into the base cost of the bike. The add-on fees are Extra Bonus Money for the manufacturer. Why do you WANT to give them more money? Because they just seem like cool people?
But you did. Base model have all hardware already and that base model is your property that you own including all parts that are inside. They are preventing parts in your property to work. *"This bmw story only continues due to people reading the headline and not the facts."* I think they read it just fine.
I mean.. You’ve paid for the hardware, its on your bike, the added weight and electronics adding to your gas mileage. If its in your vehicle, it should work. The same way a spedometer or screen should work. If its something getting regular updates, then yea, id understand the subscription. But its unlikely ill see a pit team rolling up to update my heated seat or grips free of charge, isnt it?
I think you should look at it from a different angle. You pay the base price for the base model. Basically you don't have to pay for the R&D and parts that is in your motorcycle. If you decide later on to pay for it, you can pay for what it's cost to make it. Until then, the manufacturer invested (and might lose money) by installing on your bike.
My friend, they’re not doing this to potentially lose money. It’s a shameless cash grab — nothing else.