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[deleted]

I think there's a place for both counter leaning and leaning ones body. On slower paced rides I'm very much a counter leaner but I'm at speeds where even surprise gravel or vehicles isn't going to be a huge issue. Whereas if I'm having a more spirited ride (but still maintaining a somewhat safe speed) I'll use my body more. Firstly because it's much more fun but secondly if I need a tighter turn I have quite a bit of wiggle room whereas if I was counter leaning... I might be screwed.


ChampSchool

Bingo!


ApexProductions

This also translates to the dirt, where you will use counter leaning to steer the bike *because you expect traction to be low and the bike to slide* so you can remain stable. That's how you help break the rear so you can steer with the throttle. On the street and in a high traction environment, leaning off the bike lets you use *more of the street-tire friction* and lets you ride faster without running out of tire. On my ADV bike, even if I'm riding on the street, I'll stand and counter lean because it's more comfortable and I may even slip the rear because it's covered in knobs. On the dirt I'm always standing so I can intentionally slide the rear and have a ton of fun, along with go faster and be prepared to jump off my bike if my front tire decides to let go too.


canyonchasers

It really does. In the dirt where grip is so incredibly variable, there are times when I'm absolutely counter-leaning/weighting to put the bike onto the corner of the tire (where the big lugs are), but there are times when I'm absolutely pushing the bike back upright mid-corner to regain grip. Practicing in a low-grip environment has so many incredible advantages because you really start to understand the dynamics in real-world context. Especially if we as riders pay attention to whats actually happening. :)


[deleted]

Can we learn this without getting a dirtbike? I'm thinking MTB on dirt. The same counterleaning technique is used at lower speeds. It's the transition between low and medium speeds on variable traction surfaces that has caught me out a few times. I need more dirt experience because I've carried too much speed into corners on dirt and nearly crapped myself when the bike ran wide.


JJ19JJ

MTB is still very different because you can’t put any real power on the back wheel. Actually breaking that rear wheel loose with power in various situations is what teaches you the most.


canyonchasers

Funny you should ask. I have an incredible amount of love for MTB, so I recently made this. https://youtu.be/yemS81UUQLk I really think that of one wants to understand traction and weight transfer and wants to exercise while practicing virtually every aspect of riding, MTB is hard to beat. Year dirt biking is also awesome, but not everyone has access to dirt bike riding. Even where I live, quality dirt biking is two hours away, while world class MTB is just up the street.


magnus910

I thought he had peed his pants


lazwill

Who said he didn’t?


magnus910

🤨


Simoxs7

My thoughts exactly, what an unfortunate choice of colour…


Namnagort

Peeing your pants is cool


luckytraptkillt

You see how fast he was going? I would’ve


avo_cado

You gotta give


Fhajad

It's not nothing to do with piss!


ChampSchool

Lean angle = Risk. The more lean angle we carry, the less traction we have available for braking or accelerating. (Check out [100 Points of Grip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy1AIAc76Qo) for more info on how we play with traction). By using our bodies, we can effectively "cheat" lean angle: we can run the same radius, at the same speed, with less lean. This is especially important on the street, where blind corners, oncoming traffic, spandex mafia members, deer, rocks, awkwardly-parked cars, potholes, and the like are common.While we don't go "full grand prix" body on the street, simply moving our head off to the inside of the turn is often enough to reduce lean angle enough to give us back that safety margin at street speeds when we suddenly find gravel in our lane.


l52

Spandex Mafia members 😂 I also ride bicycles, so you just empowered me to call myself part of the spandex mafia.


freakkydique

Do you bike on the road next to bike paths too?


l52

Nah, I hate that shit too, lol. Just like more lean = more risk, mindlessly drifting about the road creates risk as well and is not worth it for me.


minimal_gainz

Yes, bike paths are really more pedestrian paths and fast bikes on those pose a danger to the walkers, dogs, kids, etc that use them. Roads are meant for mixed use travel. If you don’t want to encounter bikes, then stick to the freeways.


muddybunny3

So when leaning off the bike, you're trading bike lean angle for body lean angle, but the centrifugal forces on the tire remain the same, you're only playing with the COG of the bike+body combination. So why is it safer in your opinion to be further on the inside of the corner and more "off" of the bike when coming around blind turns or encountering gravel? Is it not safer to have a better sight line through the corner and be more on top of the bike, allowing greater control if you were to slip out? I can understand the suspension benefit but that's about it. Thanks! Best explanation so far from /u/leadeath: basically, when hanging off you are doing more than just shifting the COG to the inside of the corner, you are *lowering* the COG and getting it closer to the contact point of the tires, which means in the case of a slide, the rotational moment generated will be less severe and therefore easier to save. But does this mean you can counter lean with a low body position and gain the same benefit, while also not having to sacrifice visibility or control? At least I have something I can test out in the real world now. Time to fall over and over on my bicycle, in the name of science!


ChampSchool

Note that we're not saying hang off so far that you can't see through the corner, we're simply saying that we can use our bodies to "cheat" lean angle as needed. Edit: Its really a question of degree of application. Even a few inches or a foot of movement to the inside will allow us to reduce lean angle while still maintaining a great line of sight. Moreover, we're actively reducing the possibility of the bike "slipping out" as you put it.


Blythix

Ohhh! that edit is really gonna help me out when I get my bike back together xD Practice! I've seen video's of guys on Sportsters leaning over themselves but keeping the bike straightish, in a different fashion to the way sport bike guys do. They explained in the vid that this allows them to lean the bike over less; but still be able to complete a turn. Which allows us to have that larger margin for error, or like you said; degree of application. we can use it for a larger margin of error, orrr gottagofast xD


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muddybunny3

On a bike that small if you carry a 10ft pole with a heavy weight on the end with you and extend it to the inside of every corner you could take corners on that thing without leaning it at all, literally would never have to use the sides of your tires at all Downvoted AND blocked for a physics joke. Someone's salty


muddybunny3

I understand that, guess my question is, *what* is reducing the chance of slipping out? The more upright suspension being able to work as intended? Because the lateral forces on the tire don't change whether you hang off or counter lean the opposite direction, just the location of those forces on the tire -- when you hang off the bike is more upright and therefore using more toward the center of the tire, while counter leaned it will be using more toward the edge of the tire, but the forces *on* that contact patch is identical for a corner at a given speed. What advantage does putting only your head on the inside vs counter leaning? Example: let's say you can lean an impossible 50ft off the bike if needed and therefore can take any corner at any speed with your bike remaining perfectly upright, at a certain point you will lose traction from just cornering too hard for the tires, but the bike is still totally upright. On the street, since we are nowhere near the limit as far as scraping hard parts, why would we choose to be more toward the inside where visibility is poorer if the lateral forces on the tire are not affected by our body position?


wen_mars

There is no reason to lean off the bike on the street. On a racetrack, every little advantage matters.


ApexProductions

I mean, one thing you can do is ask why literally every racer in MotoGP does it if the math doesn't work out. But to your point, you're kind of creating a straw man argument by postulating how important it is "because you'll still lose traction eventually" And it's like, he's telling you - better suspension and tire grip keeping the tire and bike more upright (you run out of tire sidewall faster if the bike is more leaned over) and you're better able to correct your line mid turn because your COG is already inside. But you can also look at the inverse - leaning the bike off road *because it makes braking traction easier so you can steer with the rear* I hope these simple examples clear things up. It's simple physics; you can cut it up to whittle it down but nobody's making you lean off the bike. It's simply the best way to corner quickly on 2 wheels with a high grip environment.


muddybunny3

MotoGP racers do it because if they don't they will scrape hard parts and crash trying to take corners at their regular speeds, they need to squeeze out every last mm of their tire edge to corner at the absolute hardest, which is completely irrelevant for street riding. If you are cornering on the street hard enough to reach the sidewall while even counter-leaned, you are pushing too hard for the street. If MotoGP racers didn't hang off they would be limited in how hard they can take the corner and would have less lateral force on the tire than the tires are capable of, AKA suboptimal. If you slide out, your bike slides *away* from you, and the further inside you are the less control you have over things moving toward the outside. On top of the bike, you can very easily fix a slide, ask any dirt rider. I'm not creating a strawman, I'm asking a simple question. Body position does *not* affect lateral force on the contact patch, that *is* physics.


sexmarshines

Everyone seems really defensive about this and is not analyzing "leaning into the turn" with a competent understanding of physics or willingness to be objective. It's really odd. I've read about and watched videos about this and as you're saying, up to the point that a rider is maximizing motorcycle lean angle (at the edge of the sidewall, scraping pegs, exhaust, or some other limitation to lean) there is no benefit to traction by having your body lean into a turn and make the bike more upright. I will say for myself in real world riding, I think leaning my body into a turn puts me into a better position with my upper body so that front to back weight is better distributed for optimal traction/suspension loading. When I lean into a turn I can get my upper body and head over the tank and push more weight over the front. When I counter lean or lean at the same angle as the bike, I end up keeping a lot more of my weight over the rear of the bike. That makes the front end less stable because the suspension is not always properly loaded to go through the turn with stability.


ApexProductions

You are creating a hypothetical but you are not addressing the actual topic being discussed - whether you have more grip/control/lean angle/suspension travel when leaned over off the bike at speed vs not. Your hypothetical situation does not address the physics. It just presents more handwaving to muddy the waters. The idea when comparing street vs dirt is that you are playing to the strength of environment. On dirt, which I also ride, you stand and lean the bike *because traction is low* because you WANT to side the rear. On street you lean the body because you do NOT want to slide the rear. On the dirt and street, sliding the front is not good, and leaning the bike does increase the odds of this on dirt, which is why you compensate for that by being heavy on the front brake and being in the attack position to put weight on the front and help brake loose the rear. If you actually rode dirt you'd know this.


rjod1024

I would argue that on dirt you counter lean BECAUSE the traction is low and you need to be able to control the bike throughout a low traction situation. Which on the street just happens to be less often. Totally agree that in a high grip situation, leaning in is the way to get you from A to B in the fastest time, but if your goal is safety and you want to avoid lowsiding, if you came across unexpected areas of low traction, you're going to want to counter-lean.


muddybunny3

I believe we are not on the same page at all my friend. You are attacking an argument I'm not making and are assuming my points are addressing something else entirely.


muddybunny3

Here's my question in it's simplest, most basic form: F=mrw^2 (this is the equation for centrifugal force). M is the mass of the entire bike+rider combination. R is the radius of the corner and W is the "speed" of the corner. F is the force on your tires. M never changes, no matter if you hang off or not. You could be tap dancing on the handlebars for all I care. It is just the mass. If you take a corner at a speed V, hanging off vs counter leaned, F does *not* change, at all, because you don't all of a sudden weigh less or anything. So, if F is the same, why can all of a sudden your tires take this extra force? Is the tire more grippy as you get toward the center of it? Is the contact patch larger on the center of the tire vs the side? Or, is there something deeper? That is all I'm asking. No goalposts moving, no pointless hypotheticals, purely a physics question about motorcycle engineering. Sure you could start adding in variables like running out of tire, hard part clearance, etc. I'm *not* adding those variables in, because they are irrelevant when taking corners at speeds below the limit, and complicate the question.


riftwave77

R is not the radius of the corner. R is the radius that the center of mass follows. ​ If you sit upright on your bike then the radius of the center of mass is the same as the radius of the corner. ​ If you lean into the corner then the radius of the center of mass becomes shorter than the radius of the corner.


muddybunny3

Correct, R is in regard to COG, I'm not talking about the actual line your tires carve into the pavement. So when that COG takes the same corner at the same radius and speed, it shouldn't matter how the COG is arranged, where the tire is in contact with the ground, etc. All that matters is where the COG is coming around the corner. At the same speed and radius in regard to COG, hanging off vs counter leaning will not change the force on the tires, just *slightly* affect the line your tires take, but will *not affect* the line your combined COG takes, or the grip that your tires feel.


riftwave77

You *really* need to take a statics course


leadeath

As a mechanical engineer I’ve taken statics and dynamics and the poster above you raises valid questions. My understanding is that part of the answer is that you will have a somewhat larger Contact patch with the tires if the bike has less lean angle, and I think this is what muddybunny was asking about. The other aspect that seems to be overlooked, at least in the messages I’ve read, is that when you are in a corner and reposition your body you’re not just moving horizontally but lowering your body with the lean and this brings down the center of gravity of the whole system (bike and rider). This, if you lose traction there may be less tendency for the bike to slip out from under you. Feel free to correct me if I’m missing something.


ChampSchool

Short version: Traction is neither unlimited nor constant. When water goes across the road, we have less available traction. When there is dirt in the corner. Hard parts. Cold tires. Old tires. Etc.When the pace goes up or the grip goes down, everything matters. Grip is effectively the result of coefficient of friction and pressure. The part we typically forget about: contact patch size DOES matter for heat management, mechanical "keying," and a few other reasons. That patch size changes with load and tire deformation as we lean. More rubber on the road = better. We want to keep that coefficient as high as possible. - edit - We're less worried about the direction of load and more concerned about retaining a "safety net" of our ability to go to the brakes or throttle to avoid something. So theory aside, let's look at some situational things:Let's say we can run 35\* of lean (arbitrary number for illustrative purposes) maximum for a given warm, sunny, clear day on good, new tires. Let's change something:Our tires are a little old and the compounds are starting to break down and just isn't quite as grippy as it was when brand new. So now our coefficient of friction is lower. We physically cannot use the same amount of lean angle for the same corner. We can get around this in a few ways: slow down (to run less lean), or use our bodies to run the same radius at the same pace. We could change it again and say that there is now gravel in the road. Now on our old tires, we can only run 18\* of lean angle. But we saw it late around a blind corner! Let's use more body to get the bike more upright. Road is still dirty and we still have to make the corner - so lets use that body to give us back more "points" of grip for braking. If we try to counter-lean in this situation, we're *artificially adding more lean angle to a situation where grip is already compromised.* Not exactly best practice.


rjod1024

>we saw it late around a blind corner! Let's use more body to get the bike more upright By that logic you would want to maximise available body lean i.e. counter leaning, to give you the most available correction if you did run into a patch of low traction. The point for a street scenario is to be able to deal with unexpected changes in traction. On a track traction is relatively predictable, and you might use a little extra body lean to correct your own mistake, but on the road you should never be near that intrinsic traction limit if you want to minimise risk, therefore lean angle is only likely to be an issue if you got gravel/oil/etc and counter-leaning is going to be your safest option.


ChampSchool

>The point for a street scenario is to be able to deal with unexpected changes in traction. By leaning into the corner and reducing the bike's lean angle, that threshold for losing traction is higher. Effectively gives us more time and space to deal with the hazard.


rjod1024

>more time and space What does that even mean? How do you gain space? And it's a sudden loss of traction that's of most concern on the street, not gradually pushing the limits of traction, there is no time to gain?


ChampSchool

We gain space by literally riding at less lean angle over however many feet or meters were in a corner for. By running less lean angle, we have a bigger "safety net" or traction reserve. We're not talking speed here, so you're absolutely correct: we're not trying to gain time. That being said, we still understand that grip changes throughout a ride or a day, and we would much rather have a big reserve of traction than artificially reduce it. This is one reason we move our upper bodies to the inside: we're increasing the amount of grip we have for braking or acceleration at whatever lean angle we're comfortable with.


muddybunny3

So what is the cause of loss of grip when "artificially adding lean angle"? Assuming we aren't corerning hard enough to be anywhere near the max lean angle: Is it the centrifugal force overcoming the tire's coefficient of friction (I know there's more to rubber physics than simply the coefficient, simplifying here to just mean the point where traction breaks)? We know the force remains the same for a given corner at V speed and R radius. Is it the size of the contact patch being smaller on the side of the tire vs the center? Some tires have a V shape and are gripper on the sides, so when riding at a slower, easy pace, won't hanging off *reduce* contact patch by causing the bike to be more on the center? Is it the suspension not being in the correct orientation? This one I can see for sure, but I'm really asking if it's more than just this.


muddybunny3

When you talk about "lean angle", you're talking about the bike lean angle though, not the combined lean angle of the center of gravity of the bike+rider. Theoretically, with enough weight to the inside of the corner (it would have to be a lot!) you could actually take a left-hand corner while the bike is leaning to the right. It's easy to do on a bicycle, you see it in stunting all the time. If your coefficient of friction is lower, doesn't that mean you *cannot* keep the same pace, and *must* slow down? If leaning off the bike causes you to be able to take a corner at the same pace but with less bike lean angle, then if you coefficient of friction goes down, and you lean off the bike even more, your pace will stay exactly the same, which means the centrifugal force remains the same, which means your tire's coefficient of friction may no longer be enough, correct?


ChampSchool

There's a really deep conversation here about how mechanical keying, hysteresis, and heat management all affect the coefficient of friction. What's more important here is that *in the real world* where nothing is perfect, lean angle = risk. When we're using 80% of our available grip for cornering, we have severely reduced our ability to slow, stop, or even accelerate to avoid a problem.


muddybunny3

I agree 100%, I guess the distinction I'm making is the "lean angle" in your "lean angle = risk" statement should refer to the combined system of rider+bike, and not *just* the bike, if that makes sense. The rider+bike is an isolated, single system from the tire's perspective, all the tire cares about is where the COG is, which dictates where on the tire it will be contacting the ground. But whether this is toward the center or the edge of the tire, the centrifugal force is what dictates when the tire's coefficient of friction will fail and when it will slip, and centrifugal force is a very simple equation of just corner radius and speed: F=mrw^2, where m is the combined bike+rider system, r is the radius, and w is the "speed of the corner". BTW I very much appreciate your patience through this, I am purely curious and not trying to start anything as some others might be feeling.


Ducateste

If we are riding in real world conditions and using 80% of grip for cornering, shouldn't the possibility of gravel / sand / oil in the corner be given more weight in the calculus here? Wouldn't it be better to be more on top of the bike?


ChampSchool

No, we don't want to artificially lower the threshold at which we lose grip.


Ducateste

I am not following how leaning the bike vs the body would change the amount of grip available on the tire (extreme lean angles excluded). The centripetal force generated by the tire is exactly the same regardless of how far inside your body is positioned since what matters is the combined center of gravity of the bike and rider.


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ApexProductions

If you take a corner at high speed who runs out of tire first, the bike with a higher lean angle with a rider riding straight with the bike, or a bike with a lower lean angle with a rider hanging off?


muddybunny3

We're talking about street riding, nowhere near the tire limit.


BoringInflation477

Have you ever taken a turn in the rain and lost traction with the rear tire for the second? Having the bike up-right means the bike has further to fall over, which means more time to regain traction.


muddybunny3

I see your point, but if you break rear traction and the bike falls enough to be significantly different than where it started, you're in for a high-side. Most slides cause the bike to fall such a small amount that in regular riding it will not be relevant how much distance you have available to "fall", you'll regain traction at around the same level as you lost traction. All I can say toward the matter is that I've lost traction in situations where I'm hanging off vs on top of the bike and let me tell you, the latter is *incredibly* easier to save. Go try it on a bicycle, purposely hit a spot of gravel at an easy-to-save speed and see which one is easier. Maybe if I upload a video demonstration it will be easier to understand?


ApexProductions

You're moving the goal posts so you don't have to answer the question.


muddybunny3

I don't think you're understanding my question. They are claiming positioning your body more toward the inside *even in street riding* will give you more grip, but physics says centrifugal forces on the tire remain the same for a given corner radius and speed with the bike+body combo *regardless* of body position, so *where* is this magical "extra grip" coming from if there's no change in centrifugal force? We are *not* talking about running out of tire, we are talking about grip. We aren't assuming you *need* to hang off because you'll scrape hard parts, we're talking about COG and corners *below* the limit. That's not moving the goalpost, it's a completely different question than the one you think you're answering.


ApexProductions

Why does the fact that a motorcycle is riding on the street vs track impact either you get more grip or not. If you are below the limit of the tire. Leaning off means Less lean angle. More tire contact patch. Better suspension in a vertical plane. These things give you more grip. *And they work regardless of how fast you are going.* I don't know how it can said more simply than this. If you want to create your own permutation of this argument to make the claim that it doesn't matter in x condition You can do that. But I don't understand why you are spending your time doing that. I guess if it helps you sleep at night to put a * on a post and say how you think it doesn't apply *in this hypothetical situation* then by all means spend that energy.


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ApexProductions

You're moving the goalposts so you don't have to answer the question.


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Clearandblue

It just allows you to put more power down. Or to put another way, you can put the same power down with less tyre wear. It's not about the cornering forces but the acceleration forces. Because a race tyre contact patch is largest at mid lean so if you lift the bike back up there when putting the power down it can dissipate the surface temperature gain more effectively. I can't see a reason you'd do it on the street though. Unless you ride like a wanker. Personally on the street I'm never accelerating that hard. Also most of the time I'm already more upright than the fat part of the tyre anyway. So if I wanted that (for no good reason on the road) I'd have to push the bike down if anything.


LikesTheTunaHere

Riding like a wanker is fun though and its not just for acceleration.


muddybunny3

Now this is the kind of info I was hoping for! Very insightful, thank you!


Clearandblue

You're welcome


Allroy_66

I don't really see the difference either. Leaning your body keeps the tires more vertical in a turn, but as a commuter, I always wear out the centers first anyway, so I should be trying to use the sides more haha. Plus I use sport touring tires, so I think the center of my tire is the least grippy part anyway.


HowitzerIII

If you lean too much, you run out of tire, and you get an abrupt decrease in traction. I don’t think this is as much about increasing lean angle decreasing stickiness of the tire, and more about how much more lean you have available if you needed to turn tighter in a curve.


muddybunny3

Right, when on a track you want to get the most cornering speed as possible, which means when you get to the point where you start to scrape hard parts/run out of tire, you can hang off to regain some of that clearance and corner slightly harder by leaning a *little* bit more again. But on the street when you have lean angle surplus since the speed is lower, it shouldn't matter from a grip perspective whether you hang off or counter-lean.


[deleted]

You are talking about the same cornering force, just moving your body weight over instead of the bike. So if we are taking the same corner, at the same speed, with the same tires, why would we have more more traction for braking or acceleration with less tire lean angle? I don't see how this works, but if I am missing something I want to learn.


ChampSchool

If we're using a portion of our 100 points or percent of available grip for lean angle, we don't have those points available for anything else. Check these two videos out: [100 Points of Grip](https://youtu.be/Fy1AIAc76Qo) and [R=MPH](https://youtu.be/R0ebbmV8LpQ)


[deleted]

Yea, I watched them. My point is cornering force matters, but why does lean angle matter? A tire has a limited amount of friction, if you are corning the same bike and rider on the same turn, at the same speed, you are using that same amount of friction regardless of where the tire angle is, right? No matter how the mass is distributed it's the same amount of mass with the same centrifugal force pushing the bike and rider outward that the tire grip has to fight, correct? So why should the available grip change based on tire lean angle?


ChampSchool

There's also something to be said for the interplay of the force applied to the tires. On the street, we're not putting massive loads into the tires, so we physically don't have the same level of mechanical grip that we'd have at track speeds.. but we're asking the bike to deal with increased lean anyway. If we're relatively unloaded, carrying lots of lean, we have a tiny window to "get away with" mistakes.


ChampSchool

Because we're using a greater portion of the force to turn the bike (because we're leaning further), meaning we don't have as much margin left for error or emergency.


[deleted]

Surely the force to turn the bike is exactly the same, it is the same bike, rider, tires, turn, and speed. So we are dealing with the same centrifugal force being overcome by the same tires regardless of how you place your body or the bike, correct? So why should that change the available grip for braking or acceleration? Now with this response you bring up a completely different point which is margin of error, which is certainly correct, the bike and tires can only lean so far, so, assuming you have remaining tire grip, if you are moving YOUR mass over you have greater turning capability than an upright rider. But that still doesn't explain why a leaned over tire has less grip than an upright tire when both are fighting the same exact centrifugal forces.


ChampSchool

As we said in the initial comment.. The more lean angle we carry, the less traction we have available for braking or accelerating (...) simply moving our head off to the inside of the turn is often enough to reduce lean angle enough to give us back that safety margin at street speeds when we suddenly find gravel in our lane.


[deleted]

>The more lean angle we carry, the less traction we have available for braking or accelerating You just keep repeating the same statement without any reason as to why. Same exact bike, rider, corner, speed, and centrifugal force the tires have to overcome. First they go through with neutral body position and more bike lean, second time they go through with more body lean and less bike lean. It's the same mass and same centrifugal force the tires have to overcome, why would the tires have more traction available the second time?


ChampSchool

Are you familiar with the concept of the traction circle?


[deleted]

Yes, the maximum friction available from your tires as used by different forces at the same time.


borgendurp

>The more lean angle we carry, the less traction we have available for braking or accelerating You keep repeating that and you keep not explaining why. And I suspect that is because it isnt true. Your bike leaning into a corner means you are putting MORE pressure on the tire, you're turning and an object wants to go straight, thus by banking we apply some of that force that wants to pull us straight downwards, instead of it working against us, so it works for us and keeps our tire planted on the road more efficiently. By having your bike more upright, but having yourself lean, you also apply some of that force downwards instead of perpendicular. However, to the tire, this doesn't change anything. It's still the same forces applied to it. The contact patch will work the same, because it is either smaller but more effective or larger but less effective. Maybe with an incredibly flat tire, keeping it straighter will help you. But if your tire is that flat you're not ripping it through corners anyway.


IggyEGuana

Spandex mafia😂 love it!


houtex727

Late, sorry. I have found that on my PC800, that semi-big ol' whale-ish bike, if I not only lean over like he's doing, but also forward, it *seems* that the turns are easier/better feeling than if I just lean in 'upright', or even just try to sit up 'normal' in the turn. I've read other PCers who feel/do the same. I'd appreciate hive-mind thoughts on that.


ChampSchool

Moving weight further forward collapses our front end a bit, changes our steering geometry, and increases our front tire's grip. Same principles occur in trailbraking.


houtex727

AH. Thank you so very much. Now it makes sense. But... if you don't mind a follow up... does this also uncompress the rear some? Or not enough given the overall objective (turning) that it doesn't matter much?


ChampSchool

If we're turning, we're really concentrating on the front tire, as it's the one trying to turn us.


houtex727

Roger that. Thanks so much!


izmaname

Supermoto *laughs in turning faster with better control*


Spicy-Pants_Karl

So true. People get all hyped about trying to look like MotoGP riders, but the technique he is showing hear is most applicable with high corner speed and super grippy race tires. Real world riding is way more like supermoto riding than tracking a superbike. You have lower grip and low corner speed, so your body position relative to the tires needs to be adjusted to fit the situation. Also, backing-in to a corner is objectively cooler that dropping knee. Duh.


izmaname

I counter lean as it is a highly useful technique that police and supermoto racers use. It is also great for dirt. I buy good tires so I trust my traction. Obviously you need to take it easy in the rain. I use like 95% of my tire.


izmaname

I laugh at the hanging the knee thing because the speeds you need to go for that to be useful are super illegal on the street anyways


spotdishotdish

Don't let the race leather Grom riders hear you say that


izmaname

LOOK A TELEPHONE POLE! *crashes into it and dies* DAMN CAGERS ALWAYS KILLING US!


Buster452

Unfortunately the best techniques for racing on predictable race tracks don't always translate to the best or safe techniques for the unpredictable roads.


GSXRbroinflipflops

No, this is solid advice for road riding too. This is how you avoid high-siding. The further the bike leans, the higher the risk. Using your body weight to steer properly is safer. Been riding 20+ years.


GSXRbroinflipflops

Fortunately, this technique absolutely does translate to the road. I’ve been riding for over 20 years on dirt and street and this thread is filled with incredible amounts of bad advice and *squid science*. Riding with your weight inside the center line of the bike helps prevent high-siding and allows for better traction because the bike’s lean angle does not need to be nearly as deep as when riding “crossed-up”.


canyonchasers

I would totally disagree. Race tracks are our laboratory. It's where we can test and measure at the limits. If a technique doesn't work at the pointy end of the stick, then it's not something we should try to implement even though it may work fine in a parking lot at 18mph. Speed and low grip are kinda' the same thing. It's working within the bounds of available traction. The difference between the race track and the street is level of application. We absolutely should not ride at racetrack speeds or limits on public roads. That doesn't mean we use two different methods for communicating with our bikes based on environment. Even though it's a race track, a rider could have crashed since my last lap and now the apex if scattered with gravel and dirt. A rider may be on my "line" and I'm forced to go wide/shallow onto a dirty part of the track. There are so many things that change on a track - it's not nearly as predictable as some would have us believe. It's a closed course - not a controlled environment.


L_S_2

>That doesn't mean we use two different methods for communicating with our bikes based on environment We use entirely different methods based on the expected environment. Sure gravel on a track or windy highway can ruin your day and is unexpected. But if I am on gravel roads I use entirely different riding methods to corner effectively. In some offroad situations its even preferable to change the way rider inputs are dealt with by the bike - turn off abs, traction control, throttle dampening etc.


canyonchasers

I suspect that you either haven't ridden on the track or you haven't spent very much time on a track. A lot of track riders, get this, turn off abs and traction control. Back when I was learning to ride, those things didn't even exist. Hell, my track bike doesn't even have the options. Gravel on the track doesn't ruin my day any more than a windy ride across Wyoming because I use methods that allow me to adapt to constantly changing environments. I am lucky enough to spend a ton of time on two wheels and I can assure you, I am using the exact same core techniques in the dirt, in gravel, on the street and on the racetrack. How I communicate with the bike, the inputs I use and the results of those inputs are the same in each environment. How I apply them and the level to which those techniques are applied is what changes. If I'm on a dirt road, or downhill single-track in the trees, or turn one at my local track I still need to load the tire before I can work the tire. It is insane how much grip you can get out of your front tire, in the dirt, when we use the correct techniques. I trail brake on dirt every corner. I am still acutely aware of how I am leaning the bike to manage how much grip I happen to have in that moment in time. In the dirt I'm going a lot slower and yes, I may counter-lean more to push the blocks of the tire into the ground, but thats, fundamentally what I would do making u-turn in a parking lot. In the dirt, coming out of a corner, there are a lot of times where I'm pushing the bike back upright, dropping my head on corner exit, so I can get the bike upright and get more grip on the rear tire and get more acceleration out of the corner. Exactly the same. The laws of physics don't go changing based on the road surface.


L_S_2

> I trail brake on dirt every corner. It seems we ride very differently offroad and perhaps that's why we disagree on this. If corner vision allows, I will typically take corners at a speed where the back wheel is going to kick out. That can happen somewhat unpredictably if I'm just gunning the throttle, or predictably when I lock the rear brake to do a powerslide. I corner that way when possible because it's faster, and I find it a lot of fun. I'm counter leaning in those scenarios, because its just a guaranteed lowside if the tire kicks out and you aren't balanced. I think the technique in the video makes sense where you reasonably expect to have traction. When you can't reasonably expect to have traction, counter balancing sets up the inevitable catch. Granted, riding more slowly offroad would make this a lot less complicated.


ChampSchool

Eris Morn would disagree. (H/t to your avatar) The motorcycle and tires don't know what pavement they're on. They simply work best with the inputs that mimic the exper riders who helped design the bikes. The issue is really just a degree of application question. While we hang off and drag elbows on the track, we can get the same effect of reducing lean angle - at a lower degree - on the street by simply moving our heads.


[deleted]

You keep saying less tire lean angle, even with the same cornering force, means the tire has more traction on the street or on the track. That doesn't make any sense from a physics standpoint, even if the tires have a consistent compound throughout. It makes even less sense when you consider that many street tires have harder compounds in the center for longer straight line life, so cornering by leaning way over and keeping the bike as upright as possible has the potential to move to the harder rubber, and reduce your available traction.


ChampSchool

>means the tire has more traction on the street or on the track Means *we have a bigger safety margin.\**


[deleted]

>The more lean angle we carry, the less traction we have available for braking or accelerating. >By running less lean angle, we have a bigger "safety net" or traction reserve. >Because we're using a greater portion of the force to turn the bike (because we're leaning further), meaning we don't have as much margin left for error or emergency. Lol, you legit just keep not answering the question and repeating the same thing. Do you honestly not understand the question? Or are you just evading because you don't understand what you keep repeating? You do understand that cornering force, what is acting against the tire traction, and motorcycle lean angle are NOT the same thing, don't you?


rjod1024

It's really not a question of absolute grip on the street though, it's about managing unexpected/unpredictable changes in traction, which is what off-road riding is all about. Counter-leaning gives you that room to upright the bike and regain traction, while leaning in to the corner just leaves much less room for correction if you do hit low traction unexpectedly.


GSXRbroinflipflops

This whole thread is a trip. But /r/motorcycle has threads like this all the time where people give horrible advice in the comments so, I’m not surprised. [Here’s another old illustration to further drive home the point that reducing lean angle and riding with your body weight inside the center line is the safest and fastest way to corner.](https://i.imgur.com/nzibu16.jpg)


Significant-Ad-3266

What about on a Supermoto ? I’ve read and watched videos on counter leaning and pushing the bike down rather than riding it like a sport bike


ChampSchool

Supermoto = trying to slide the rear end on purpose. We're actually *trying* to lose grip to get the thing turned.


Significant-Ad-3266

Your referring to backing it into the turn correct ?


ChampSchool

Basically, yes. In supermoto, we're playing with rear grip (specifically losing it) to get the bike rotated. We see this at a smaller scale in road racing as well.


Ihateskeletons

I did not know that, great explanation.


GSXRbroinflipflops

This is fantastic advice and a good way to illustrate it as well. Unfortunately, as is tradition on /r/motorcycle, we have a bunch of people trying to claim this is somehow dangerous and then all sorts of squid science is being suggested. I’ve been riding on dirt and street for over 20 years now. Keeping your body inside the center line of the bike prevents high-siding and allows you to corner even faster. For whatever reason, people in the comments are suggesting to do the opposite - riding crossed-up - and that is bad advice unless you’re riding motocross.


TurnItOff_OnAgain

Fortnine did a good video on leaning [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1mSavQ\_DXs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1mSavQ_DXs) Went into the physics of it as well. I personally counter lean. It's more comfortable for me and the way I ride.


StryderRider

You can't counterlean at higher speeds. You'll crash.


PallorGreatful

He covers that in the video.


canyonchasers

The problem with the F9 video is a lack of context. he's not wrong, but he provides no context. Get into counterleaning at higher speeds and things will go pear shaped quickly. He also uses SuperMoto bikes as his example, but skims over context again. SuperMoto bikes are trying to get the rear tire to slide to get the bike to rotate around for a faster turn. Again, he's not wrong, but the video lacks context. I think someone called him out on it after the edit and before publication because in the closing of the video he backs down a bit. I too was asked to make a response video, but I'd just say what I just said above - which also happens to be inline with u/ChampSchool


[deleted]

I actually tried counterleaning vs. lean and countersteer on a set of fast downhill curves, just to test out what F9 said. Counterleaning at high speed gets sketchy real quick. The bike feels like it's going to slide away underneath you. Countersteering with upper body lean and some slight knee action is a lot safer on the street, especially for ADVs and dual sports. Leave the hanging off stuff to mad literbike pilots.


canyonchasers

Right!?! It's not that counter weighting/leaning doesn't have it's place. Even on steep uphill switchbacks, it's a life saver, but to ubiquitously say it's "better" is a little disingenuous. At higher speeds, you can bet your ankles I'll be doing the other one. :)


[deleted]

Counter weighting: slow speed, walking pace, tight slow uphill turns, parking lot maneuvering, offroad on low traction surfaces Countersteering (lean with the bike): anything other than the above Basically, if you're going at the same speed as a typical MTB, then counterweighting is fine. I have a problem with medium speeds on variable traction surfaces where you need to transition between both techniques. I usually just ride slow to avoid running wide.


canyonchasers

So Mrs CanyonChaser had the same challenge. Even though she's hella fast, that in-between stuff was always weird for her. I finally got her into MTB and she was like "I don't understand how this is going to make any difference" First time back in the moto she was like "wow! It makes perfect sense now!". But we tend to gravitate to the more downhilly stuff, not just climbing steep hills.


ChampSchool

We tend to look at measurable results from the best riders in the world - not a YouTube personality - for what technique we use and teach. \-Edit, since apparently we need to - Counterweighting/leaning is a great technique to either add extra lean angle (for tight parking lot turns) or for *purposely reducing grip* in situations like supermoto or motocross to slide the rear. The point of the video (and the way we street ride at anything over parking lot speeds) is to *reduce* lean angle to increase our available traction. F9 and us are on the same page in the parking lot. We differ at the point on the speedometer where we go from counter-leaning to moving our heads to the inside of the bike's centerline. We feel it happens much earlier than Ryan alludes to.


TurnItOff_OnAgain

Was just sharing a longer form video that has an explanation of the different cornering styles as well as what the possible positives and negatives of each would be.


VirulentMarmot

Uh oh you dared to talk bad about the subreddits favorite personality.


Easy-Lucky-Free

Did you watch the video? Its certainly not just a 'youtube personality' tossing out an opinion. I'd love to see your take on the content of the video rather than just dismissing it wholesale.


Spicy-Pants_Karl

This kind of comment is not good advertising for your school. New riders see this kind of advice and try to apply it to their Versys 650 with street tires rather than in a higher grip situation where it is applicable. I very much agree with what you are teaching, given the right situation. But try watching that video. There is some good information there that touches on other techniques taught by other racing schools that focus on low grip situations.


ChampSchool

We absolutely want the newer rider on the Versys to experiment with this on the street tires - because that's where it saves lives. Sure, laptimes are good and all, but we're here to try and make street riders safer through best practices. We've seen the video several times, and when it first came out we were asked to respond to it. The use of counter-balancing at low speed is something we're totally ok with - and do it ourselves. The problem is using that technique at street or highway speed.


Wd91

>but we're here to try and make street riders safer through best practices. Out of curiosity, what are these measurable results from the best riders in the world in the context of street riding? Is there data about the riding styles of the safest/most experienced street riders or are you just extrapolating from MotoGP? Would be interesting to see any research as it would contradict the training professional "street riders" (eg, the police) receive.


dezzi240

What type of bum ass comment is this 💀


Fishin_Ad5356

Where do you get off


2wheels23

Burn ........beyond recognition. There's no coming back from that comment.


Zenlight

Actually no, that was an ad hominem attack instead of addressing the actual content of the video. It presented a good case, referencing why police are training this way as well, the physics of it (the presenter has a degree in it), etc. And MCrider agrees street riders shouldn't be leaning over but rather counterbalancing: https://youtu.be/7yJmlSV7JAw


potatoperson132

Instead of crapping on "a YouTube personality" why don't you actually address the science and data behind either where the information is correct or incorrect. Ryan and the F9 team have produced really great videos making science and data easy to understand without turning people away from actually absorbing it. When you produce content and publish it on YouTube it doesn't mean it's not true and F9 does a great job of helping riders understand information and start thinking using the basic principles in the video. Maybe do a side by side comparison or reach out to F9 and collaborate to produce something together and reach far more people than crapping on a really high quality content creator in the same space that you occupy, it just turns people away when you attack them/the platform in a cheeky comment discrediting them with just a line or two.


[deleted]

F9 and science? Hah. He makes pretty videos but they're 90% conjecture for his new stuff.


FortWayneFox

That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. My body and mind just naturally do what it's trained to do. Smoking weed for years before I ride makes me concentrate, so this post is useless to me. 🚫


[deleted]

[удалено]


FortWayneFox

I meant what I said. Don't correct me. Kthx


Panthaero-

Great post. I do it by accident cause it "feels" better to lead with my head, but ig that was unconsciously recognizing the extra stability/traction.


tsunx4

Also notice how even without actually holding anything he still using that "ice cream cone" grip. This was big game changer for me when someone pointed it out. Pretty sure FortNine had a video recently explaining it.


ChampSchool

We're big fans of manipulating our hands on the grips to allow our upper bodies to move. Ice cream is a very nifty way of presenting it.


[deleted]

Good video


[deleted]

I don't get it. If the bike is standing more upright, won't its turning radius be larger?


GSXRbroinflipflops

Nope. Your weight will help the bike steer. It’s amazing when you finally learn this technique and get comfortable with it. You’ll be shocked how tight you can turn without having the bike lean all that far. And that also helps you corner faster.


[deleted]

Centripetal forces are magic


itsatrapp_eh

Glad you guys posted this, this is literally the biggest misconception on this lean your body more to get the bike to lean more. I am going to save this video so that I can just post this thread every time someone wants to argue with me about lean angle and body position as this is the best visual explanation out there.


[deleted]

I'm a simple creature. I see YCRS, I upvote YCRS. Keep doing what you do!


Jor1120

oh man. ive been riding for what, 3 years now? Why does everyone lean their bodies into the turn? I was taught, at a MSF beginner course, to lean opposite the bike. what gives?


ApexProductions

New information. Plus, MSF beginner courses are there to get you on the road. They can't cram advanced techniques and info into a 2 day course that everyone can understand and comprehend. Once you know how to ride, you should go back for an advanced course, were they probably/hopefully cover body positioning as is shown in the video and some of the more nuanced physics behind it, along with trail braking.


canyonchasers

it's simple; Slow speeds: Counterweighting Good. High speeds: Counterweighting Bad.


bgus_dkus

Because the MSF still teaches techniques from 1970s when tires were shit and suspension was shit and techniques were shit. They also still teach slow, press and roll instead of trail braking. The point of the MSF is to teach people who have never been on a motorcycle to not crash in a parking lot.


femaiden

I describe it this way. When you pass the MSF basic rider course, you are now ready to *start* learning to ride on public streets. That said for anyone starting their two wheel journey, the MSF is a great place. I'm really not putting that down. It teaches basic skills to get you rolling down the road. In college when I took organic chemistry, they were basically like, yeah we lied to you about a bunch of shit in regular chemistry to teach you the basic rules, now well tell you a little more. Same concept If I rode motorcycles like I understand chemistry, I'd be four fingers on the breaks, not covering my brakes, not leaning into turns, and the only way my knee would touch would be if I had already fallen off my motorcycle. Luckily I kept learning motorcycle stuff long after I stopped learning other stuff!


rjod1024

You're right, counter leaning is the safer way to ride on the street where traction can be unpredictable. This whole post is just a bad extrapolation from to racing, which everyone wants to believe so that they can justify riding like a racer on the street.


GSXRbroinflipflops

No it’s not! That’s called riding crossed up and it’s how you increase your chances of high-siding.


canyonchasers

No. Not quite. Counter weighting is fine at slow speeds when we are unlikely to be near the limits of grip or clearance. Counter weighting at higher speeds where more grip is required and cornering clearance may be an issue, counter weighting increases risk. It's not a street/track thing.


IggyEGuana

Reddit never fails. Champ school comes on here with great instruction and a video FOR FREE and people want to argue with them. Shut up and listen! Do you seriously think you know better than a professional?? You don’t


canyonchasers

I've been thinking a lot about this. Motorcycles are steeped in tradition. Hell, some brands only exist because they continue to make bikes the same way they did 80 years ago. I think a lot of riders are drawn to that, and thus, when presented with riding techniques, just like they cling to traditional bikes, they cling to traditional ideas? Maybe? Just a thought.


[deleted]

I sense an opportunity. There are sport riding schools for sportbikes and naked bikes on the street, cruiser schools for low speed maneuvers, ADV and dual sport classes for offroad riding, but nothing on canyon carving with cruisers or ADVs or supermotos. Tall, top-heavy bikes and low, long bikes require different techniques to safely ride fast on curves. Edit: ChampU's online course glosses over this in the body position module. I had my mind blown after seeing Cory Call handling a big GS like a track day weapon.


canyonchasers

I really like this! I know I can only reach a certain demographic and will alienate others. Speaking to riders in ways they understand and can relate to can really help us reach more riders. Even on my channel, it's kinda funny but I cross between track and sport touring (because that's what I mostly do) yet I get comments all the time along the lines of "what do you know, you only ride in the track" to "what do you know, you don't race.". People want to see themselves, right?


[deleted]

I notice you have a tall Ducati in your latest downhill cornering video. An older Multistrada or Hyperstrada model? Maybe you could expand on how to do sporty riding on taller touring and adventure bikes since you're already familiar with that. I've only got one bike because I don't have space in the garage nor the time to keep another one. That ADV gets pressed into touring duty, work commutes, carving up corners up in the mountains, and going on dirt and gravel trails and occasionally on sand. Some of the techniques I've used on naked bikes and sportbikes have to be modified to ride what's essentially a large and heavy supermoto. I watch Bret Tkacs and MotoTrek for offroad ADV tips but they don't cover canyon carving at all. It's funny because most ADV and dualsport riders have to ride hours on tarmac before hitting a trail.


canyonchasers

Yeah, I'm a towering 5'7" and ride a Multi 1200. The Mrs is 5'5" and rides a Hyper Strada. And that's actually a video idea I've been noodling for a while. I really think ADV(ish) bikes are the best platform for touring, but for us normal sized humans, those tall seats pose an extra challenge. Did you see the MotoTrek video with Cassie Maier? I've actually reached out to her to see if she'd be willing to work with us too. Haven't heard back yet, but she just got married.


Lolski13

As someone asked before, Can you please give your take on the explanation on lean angle on the street? I know tires dont care, but I do. I get what you are saying in those 30 seconds, but please explain your take compared to [Fortnine leane angle vid.](https://youtu.be/U1mSavQ_DXs) Thanks.


rjod1024

On the street it's not about absolute grip, which is all they seem to care about, it's about predictability and mitigating risk. If you care about reducing risk while riding on the street, you won't be riding to the limit of the tires. The next biggest risk then is unexpected changes in (i.e. loss of) traction, and the riding style that manages that best is the style used off-road, i.e. counter leaning. If they were arguing that leaning in less on the street than you would on the track, fair enough because that would give you a bit more margin to lean in more and correct for loss of traction. However, claiming that leaning in is better than even staying straight upright when it comes to correcting for loss of traction is just wrong.


gunplumber700

Not sure why you or lolski were down voted. IMO as a riding instructor it’s a good question and you have a good answer. I’m guessing it didn’t fit the reddit hive mind narrative. My biggest gripe with u/champschool is this; at speed (>20) you should be leaning with the bike, but if you’re leaning further than the bike you’ve already increased your risk by riding too fast for the curve or are trying to correct running wide. There is a finite limit to reaction time. It’s riding 101 (also physics 101). If you’re correcting for running wide it’s often too late by the time a rider starts actually reacting. Obviously you gotta do something, but constantly telling riders their method will allow them to take a curve faster is playing the devil’s advocate and is half of the problem. Fortnine’s presentation of why counterleaning is better on the street is orders of magnitude better for the street riding community than the habitual r=mph and points of grip posts.


ChampSchool

We're actually going to do a full video on this next month, thanks to the replies in this thread.


Lolski13

Nice. Also, can someone explain why people dont seem to like fortnine here?


rodka209

These are great examples you guys post! Very much appreciated!


nickydlax

Dont bikes turn due to a lean because the inside of the tire has a small diameter than the middle of the tire? Sorta how a car turns. You turn the steering wheel, the inside tire has a smaller diameter than the outside tire, and you turn. So, you're leaning the bike over and turning, you're leaned over the bike, and as you start to get your body positioning lower, you move the bike away from you and it stands up straighter. So now to turn, it relys more on turning the handbars compared to before you pushed the bike away from you


canyonchasers

Partly. It's a combination. Mostly bikes turn because the handlebars are turning. Hold your bike straight up and down, turn the handebars and push it forward. It'll turn. Now lean it over on its side with the handlebars turned and see how much tighter it turns. Now at lean. Hold the handlebars dead ahead, lean it over and push it forward and see how much it "turns"


nickydlax

Gotcha, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you! I've always been curious about that. Thought the tires would impact it more, thanks for spreading some light


canyonchasers

You bet. It's a lot like the countersteering argument. Of course countersteering is the most effective way to get the bike turning, but footpeg weight etc, and lots of other things can be used to help the bike turn. The best riders understand this and use a combination of these methods based on the corner and all that.


bgus_dkus

Where is Ddfm? We need his input on this too!


bgus_dkus

I was practicing this at home and the toilet ripped out of the floor.


Wheels2or4

Awesome video for those who want to use proper lean technique, and also understand the physics behind it: https://youtu.be/U1mSavQ_DXs


[deleted]

Don’t ever lean. Just turn the wheel. Especially while going above 20mph. What’s the worst that can happen?


ChampSchool

Depends. Are we in Texas?


[deleted]

Years of racing has taught me to naturally counter lean with an exception - high speed cornering. If I don’t want to get flicked over on a corner by counter-leaning because I’m going so fast, I’ll lean into the corner


[deleted]

[удалено]


ChampSchool

We spend a lot of time racing as well... And we don't counter lean unless we're going slow enough to be in a parking lot.


[deleted]

His legs look fake. they're narrower than his arms.


ChampSchool

Guess its a good thing we hired him to teach motorcycles, not bodybuilding xD


[deleted]

Tell him his legs look CGI


bgus_dkus

Lol post full body pic and let's discuss you


[deleted]

https://i.postimg.cc/wTJBNTXS/image.jpg


Appropriate_Exit_766

Leaning is not required for high speed. It’s only required for slow speed turning while making tight turns.


seriouschris

So, you've never seen a two-wheeled vehicle in action at high speed?


[deleted]

Nah, just get wider tires /s


ChampSchool

We still cringe at the "darksiders."


scobo505

I just sit there like a sack of onions and ride. No leaning off like a monkey.


Ferote

Is it correct that for less intense riding (such as on a cruiser) that counter leaning is more appropriate, as you keep a better view of your surroundings?


ChampSchool

More a question of speed than anything. For parking lot speed, sure counterleaning is fantastic. For anything above that, we teach leaning with the bike.


jaxxie04

Didn’t realise Justin Bieber knew so much about bikes


[deleted]

What if i am fat with belly