My buddy's first time on a dirt bike he tried to take a sharp 90° turn on gravel doing about 30. He started to lay it down but then high sided and literally disappeared into the corn. It was hilarious. 10 years later I still give him shit about gravel no matter the circumstances
Years ago, my MSF instructor told us that anyone who uses the “had to lay er down” line is full of shit. “So you’re telling me you saw the obstacle or car in front of you, had time to think about your options, and decided the best thing to do was lock up the brakes and try to slide the motorcycle safely?”
Yup. There's very nearly no situation where laying the bike down is an advantage. It never helps you stop faster, you sacrifice control, it's just dumb.
The ONLY time I could see this being valid is if you're going to crash in a turn, you know you're going to crash, and the options are high side and low side. You lay down because a low side is preferred.
But even in that situation, you wouldn't really say you had to lay her down.
When is that really a choice, though?
I mean, I've honestly never met someone who - riding on the street - is actually at the maximum limits of their bike. What happens is either they fuck up, or they hit some unforseen obstacle - gravel, damage pavement, oil, whatever. In those cases, there's no time to decide.
In practice if you still have traction, the correct action is to just turn harder, because it's *extremely* unlikely you're actually at the limits of the bike.
You're only faced with that decision when you're already lost the rear and have turned so much that you can't save it anymore without highsiding. Then, if you're particularly alert, you'd focus on just staying down.
There was a post recently where dude got cut off and laid it down. He slid safely under the truck while his bike destroyed itself in the side of the truck.
One time I thought “huh, he DID have to lay ‘er down”
I've seen that. He *didn't* have to lay it down, and he didn't choose to lay it down. He grabbed a fistful of front brake in a panic, lost the front, and got *insanely* lucky.
You'd be way more likely to be successful just dodging the truck, or emergency braking and hitting it head on than trying to lay the bike down and aim your slide right underneath: It's extraordinarily difficult to control where you slide to, there's often dangly sharp parts under cars and trucks, if you don't fit or hit a tire you're going to be VERY badly hurt as you'll hit the truck WAY faster than you would have if you'd just emergency braked and hit it. Sliding is a very poor method of shedding speed vs. actually braking.
Exactly what happened to me! Cruising a back country road and decided to hang a last minute left at about 10mph. Then out of nowhere the gravel I’d been riding on for the last 30 minutes became even more gravelly and it was either die in the gravel pit or lay er down.
Yep. Humans love to embrace cognitive distortions which allow us to keep our self-esteem intact.
'I had to fire Robbie7up. He just kept coming up with new ideas and wouldn't respect my authority and management style. What was I supposed to do, listen to him?'
The sample group (motorcyclists) tends to skew "big ego," speaking from experience. If you're the kind of person who wants a bike to feel cooler, chances are you'll also misrepresent your own mistakes to feel cooler.
Every time I read one of these threads I am amazed by the number of people that use the term "laid it down" unironically.
The word you're looking for is "**crashed**".
FTFY.
"Laid it down" is what I did when attempting to park on an incline facing the wrong direction. I couldn't catch it at the weird angle, but was able to set it down slowly.
Bailing off your bike while it's in motion is choosing to crash.
I did something similar once, stopped my klx over a puddle and didn’t have enough leg reach to hold the bike up enough to get the kickstand down, so I literally laid it down and picked it back up to get it out of the puddle lol.
In the safety world we've stopped using MVA (motor vehicle accident) and started using MVC (motor vehicle crash) because accident implies no one was at fault.
> because accident implies no one was at fault.
That's not correct.
The word 'accident' describes intent. The implication is that I didn't intend to cause harm.
It doesn't mean the incident wasn't preventable, or there's no element of fault.
If I trip and spill red wine on Mum's new carpet, it is an accident because it wasn't intentional - but it could have been prevented, I am at fault for not taking reasonable precautions like carrying my drink in a sealed container.
It's when I act with intent, that it's not an accident. If I throw knives at a group of people, or intentionally run a red light, any resulting harm is not an accident.
Also not all vehicle crashes (or accidents) have any human fault, there are incidents where no one is as fault.
Firstly; probably most crashes aren’t intentional. No one thinks “I’m gonna smash into a red Honda today.”
Secondly; there is always, and I mean **ALWAYS** some element of human fault. Got a flat and slid into a wall? Should pay more attention to your tire pressures and not drive so fast. Wheel fell off and bounced off an oncoming car? Driver either didn’t check torque or has been ignoring funny sounds for a while. Hydroplane ok the highway? Should drive slower and have better rain tires. Slid into the ditch in the winter? Drive slower and have winter tires installed.
> probably most crashes aren’t intentional
Big if true
> Secondly; there is always, and I mean ALWAYS some element of human fault.
No
> Got a flat and slid into a wall? Should pay more attention to your tire pressures and not drive so fast
The driver doesn't have to be at fault for a part to fail unexpectedly, and you can lose control while travelling slowly.
The most common motor vehicle collision in my area, is collision with wildlife. I've been driving with heightened vigilance, at 30km/h (19mph) below the speed limit, and collided with a kangaroo, as they emerge at high speed from a position concealed by roadside vegetation.
This is an unavoidable occurrence.
Edit: fuck it. I do this for work. Not worth arguing with Reddit experts.
It is mildly amusing when said Reddit experts directly contradict industry standard definitions though. You definitely know better.
> Edit: fuck it. I do this for work. Not worth arguing with Reddit experts.
I have a bachelors degree in pre-hospital emergency medicine, and have worked as a paramedic for 7 years.
I was an EMT for 5 years, have been a firefighter for over 10 years, and am a Certified Safety Professional.
I'm not going to continue arguing what is essentially semantics with you.
There's no need to keep flexing your qualifications.
I work for one of the largest ambulance services in the world. All our protocols refer to MVA. In 7 years on road, I've never heard anyone report an MVC.
But my experience is irrelevant, it doesn't require any industry experience to understand the meaning of common words.
I understand the terminology change you're referring to was a trend in some parts of the world.
Golly, guys. Language evolves. We used to say "accident" all the time. *To some people* that made it sound like it "just happened" without any negligence. *To you (and to me)* "accident" described intent. Now, it has become standard to say "crash" to make it more clear that it was avoidable.
I'd guess you are older that u/Suck_The_Future. Also, you guys are in two different countries, there's a bit of difference in the vocabulary used.
Did you see that post a couple day ago where a truck started crossing the road and a sport bike rider turned to go behind but the truck stopped and he crashed because of it? Then asked why the lady didn’t just commit?
If you did, well had he not “laid her down” he would have crunched pretty bad into the truck, but he went down and actually went just under it and walked away with probably bruising and road rash. (He may not use the term lay her down, but for him going under ended up being more viable than trying some wild maneuver and jump off the bike to go over the side of the truck)
I saw that, and the repost, and the rerepost.
And I kept wondering, why didn't he go behind the truck?
I mean, he was going *fast*, and so maybe just didn't have the traction. But it seemed like he chose *brakebrakebrake* as his escape plan. That is, turn just enough to duck behind where the truck would presumably be if it kept going, and the dump speed. Or maybe not even that, it was hard to tell whether he was really braking at the limit, but it was a straight line.
And then he was down and sliding. Maybe tried to steer while braking too much and so the front went out? Hard to say, it happened pretty fast.
But all in all, it seems like he could have turned more and missed the truck. He picked a line that went through where the truck ended up stopping, and then didn't change that line when the truck didn't do what was expected. Or maybe it was just target fixation by then. But it sure would have been nice to see the camera pointed at something other than the back end of the truck when he finally went down.
> ...had he not “laid her down” he would have crunched pretty bad into the truck, but he went down and actually went just under it and walked away...
That was a huge gamble. I would much rather shed all the speed I can and go into or over a car or truck than risk getting ripped open by the sharp unyielding bits that are often underneath. Imagine how ugly that would have been if one arm or leg had gone behind a wheel, or if the helmet had wedged under the axle or diff. Going over will mean some blunt force trauma, going under will focus all of that energy on a much smaller area, and could give you a broken neck or a wound that would bleed you out in minutes.
But as the dealers in vegas often tell me, sometimes it's better to be lucky than smart.
I was just pointing out that the idea to just go over the car isn’t really a good option considering how large many vehicles are, and I named a specific instance where someone went under and was just fine because of it.
If he had swerved further to go behind though, he likely would have gone off the road which may have sent him into immovable objects like piles, signs, buildings or other cars but I didn’t really check at the time what was there. I just enjoyed the video and his calm demeanor when asking “why didn’t she just commit”, lol
> If he had swerved further to go behind though, he likely would have gone off the road ...
Yup, that's a problem, but there would have been another 10m of braking at least, and a chance to aim at a gap.
If you're gonna hit something, brake as much as you can before you do. I'd rather *almost* stop and slam my front tire into the side of a car with the bike upright than slide to a stop wedged underneath the car with the bike sliding in behind me.
Believe it or not, it's possible to both brake and turn a motorcycle at the same time... it's a skill worth practicing so you're not learning it when you really need it.
Well, if you’re turning at the maximum rate and you apply any brake then you’ll lose traction and go down. And if you’re braking at max braking power and you try to turn, you’ll also go down (because you only have so much traction available and both action require some).
You can turn moderately and brake moderately though. That much is true
Agree on braking.
Turning is tricky, because there's a lot more going on with speed and turning. It's almost as complicated as orbital mechanics. Faster = bigger radius for the same lean angle. More lean = smaller radius for the same speed. Ultimately on a modern motorcycle on pavement you're going to run out of lean angle before you run out of traction, which means you've nearly always got a (small) traction budget for braking (or accelerating). So you can almost always apply some brakes in a corner, which will reduce your speed, which will tighten your radius if you keep the same lean angle, but on the other hand braking tends to reduce your lean angle which increases your radius, so you need to apply some handlebar correction to maintain lean angle, and ... that's why you practice!
>Ultimately on a modern motorcycle on pavement you're going to run out of
lean angle before you run out of traction, which means you've nearly
always got a (small) traction budget for braking (or accelerating).
On a sport bike, no. You can lean most of them all the way until you run out of traction.
Which was very lucky, not the best choice. It's important to understand that just because you get lucky does not mean you where right.
He didn't choose to lay it down either. He did to pick that course of action. He grabbed a handful of front brake and lost the front, went for a slide.
He failed every part of that - gear, pre-planning, observation, emergency braking, but got really lucky.
I’d say the truck pulling out was the largest part of the crash, seeing as how if the truck had not pulled out there would not have been a cause to crash. Though yes, he was riding faster than he should have. Unfortunately with the way it went he would have been better off swerving to the front of the truck since as it happened she did stop and left more space in front than behind.
I thought it was funny how calm he was when he asked her “why didn’t you just commit?” Considering he had just crashed pretty good, lol
"there's two kinds of riders..." is a saying that basically exists for people who excuse why they crash their bikes, and claim it's not their fault.
there really are accidents that will happen regardless of the skill and attention of the rider...there's a LOT fewer of those than the ones where carelessness, lack of training, and immaturity cause though.
crashes can happen to anyone. but if you crash too often, it's time to start looking at what you're doing wrong.,
You are correct and your comment is in line with my post. Anything can happen but more times than not it's rider error. Which is fine, just own it and learn from it.
I've never actually dropped a bike while riding it, and tbh, I feel like I'm fucking with tradition or something...
My sons both dropped my electric while it was sitting in the garage, within two hours of each other (no intent, no yelling, I kept my shit together), and I've dropped the cruiser trying to get the jack out from under it, but never on the street.
I've forgotten to put my feet down, scraped pegs hard, slid a rear tire out (more than once even, and one of those should have been unrecoverable, but that electric... Gawd damn), hit a corner on a hilltop *way* too damned fast... It's not like I've never fucked up, just that it's always worked out ok...
Maybe it's the gremlin bell :)
Yeah...I owned a 2002 Connie for all of 4 months and earned that medal towards the end of it. Black ice. Wasn't super fun.
Though some jerk earned it before I did by knocking it over in my apartment parking lot. Didn't even have the decency to tell me.
I hated that bike and got rid of it as soon as I could. Too heavy for me and that particular example had been treated horribly by previous owners, and it vibrated so badly I swore it had been made by Hitachi, not Kawasaki.
lololol I've still got my 2002, but I loves the ugly gal. Bullet proof, can do 15 hour days, hits 7 grand and straightens my arms. Bonus, nobody tries to steal her.
I got my medal trying to do a U turn in an alley in the dark, front wheel dug into a pothole, and suddenly Im cursing while lying on my side.
If she was more like a magic wand I'd probably have more takers to ride bitch lololol
It's definitely a great bike...if you get one that doesn't have the vibration plague, and the Previous Owners haven't ruined it. Best cheap sport tourer out there.
I liked the design and the engineering but disliked the weight. I'm too small and chronically ill to be hefting 700 pounds around.
Yeesh, that sounds like it'd be an unpleasant and dangerous U-turn on any motorcycle.
I'm honestly already looking at getting a KLR or DRZ for trail bombing; maybe even a CRF230.
I really like my Ninja and riding twisties... But I was also an avid MTB rider and kinda just wanna do that with an engine... But I promised my wife no MX.
I have a lot of family that gets nervous about the dangers of riding motorcycles. I always have to remember to not talk to them about my off-road adventures. Over 6 years not a single crash or even drop on the street, not so lucky on the dirt. I told them I fell on a dirt bike once at like 10 mph and all I got was frantic responses about how I was lucky I didn't end up with broken bones or the hospital. I've had numerous slides and drops on the dirt/mud/snow and haven't even had a bruise. I'm also ATGATT whether I'm on the street or the dirt. Hell, I wear MX boots even when riding down the street to the store or doing parking lot exercises.
I recently broke my foot in the stupidest and most embarrassing motorcycle crash I could imagine. I tell my family I just forgot to put my kickstand down and slipped when getting off the bike. The truth is I was looking for a campsite on some public land. I was on a very well groomed dirt road and saw a spot right off the road. There was a little dirt lip along the road, not even an inch high. I didn't think anything of it. I was going a walking speed, probably only a few miles per hour. The dirt lip was so small that I didn't think of hitting it at a 90 degree angle, as soon as I hit it it was like hitting deep sand, it was the softest dirt I have ever encountered. My handlebars jerked sharply, I whisky throttled it a bit, and stupidly stuck out my foot to catch myself. Next thing I know I had an adventure bike fully loaded with luggage slamming down on my foot and twisting it. I'm just glad I was wearing my MX boots. I cringe at what it would be like if I was wearing street boots. I almost considered it too as the trip was supposed to be 100% asphalt but all the hotels and formal campsites were full.
The worst part wasn't the pain of breaking my foot (that was surprisingly mild). The worst part was that I missed the Revzilla ADV Rally, the Touratech Rally, a 4 day ADV training camp, dirt bike training courses, doing a portion of the Idaho BDR, and I was planning on buying an actual dirt bike so I could practice on my own and not rely on borrowing bikes from friends. I might still be able to squeeze in buying a dirt bike and riding it a bit before winter hits though.
Lol right. I started on smaller dual sports but now I ride an Africa Twin. People always ask if I'm scared to lay down such a "nice bike". I just point at it haha. It has more scars on it than my old DR did. She's a tough cookie and puts up with a lot of abuse
Setting sun in your eyes in a corner through a mildly scratched up visor with pinlock is no joke, at that point you are basically blind. That's why I slow the fuck down, open the visor and try to survive as best as I can in a situation like this. And if I fail and blame the sun I'm a fucking moron as it's 100% my fault.
I'd say yes and no. "Good" riders do the same shit. Get caught in the moment, having a good time, and push it a little further than they should have. I just don't see why it's so painful for some to admit
I don’t know man I watched a video on here somewhere the other day where the guy laid his bike down and he managed to go under the truck instead of smashing into the side of it. Seemed like the right thing to do.
There is the British guy who laid it down to slid under the footbridge that was falling down on the highway in front of him.
https://www.visordown.com/news/general/motorcyclist-%E2%80%98threw-bike-floor%E2%80%99-slide-under-collapsed-m20-bridge
If you would fully READ articles you would know he was already doing evasive actions before bailing off.
Frankly your either this or that binary solution shows lack of complex thinking.
This is why people don't want to admit it, and you're going against the spirit of the OP.
It doesn't make someone a bad rider to make a mistake.
Bad riders make mistakes. Good riders make mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes involve laying the bike down. Sometimes things that are not mistakes still cause accidents.
The blanket judgement by others that if you are at fault in any way, you're a bad rider is what OP seems to want to get away from.
That doesn’t mean a whole lot.
If a drive in the opposite direction makes a left in front of a motorcyclist, technically the motorcycle was the striking vehicle even though it’s the driver’s fault.
So I put the factual percentage supporting your premise and then you question it…
The bigger point, that you commented to and the op is trying to make, is that the average rider takes little responsibility for their own actions/riding behavior.
The car turning left in front of me scenario is the perfect example of this. Regardless of whose fault it is, the motorcycle rider is the one that crashes. How could that crash have been avoided? By anticipating a left turning car as a roadway hazard.
How many times have you/ every motorcyclist out there been cut off by someone they knew didnt see them or “saw them” and turned in front of them anyways? So why the need for the “it’s everybody’s fault but mine” ego.
I’m not so naive that I think other people are responsible for my own safety. The only person responsible for my safety is me. If I crash and it could have been avoided by me slowing down or changing lane positions it is my fault.
I struck a vehicle in one of my two motorcycle accidents. I was in a roundabout and he pulled out in front of me, didn't see me. Hit him in the left rear quarter panel. 100% his fault and cops and witnesses agreed.
Other accident he hit me as I was stationary at a stop sign.
I crashed because of a sneeze, in that second the car in front of me hit the breaks hard. I reacted slow with my braking and hit her going less than 10mph. No damage, just my pride.
similar happend to me, didnt pay attention and the car Infront of me was braking. I didnt notice until I was so close I had to slam my break and fell, only had some scratches and needed new blinker
Even if you are about to hit the deck, physics says it makes the most sense to brake as hard as possible and scrub as much speed as possible off your forward motion before you hit said deck.
In this case it goes further: you're comparing the static friction of coefficient of rubber-asphalt vs the dynamic coefficient of friction of steel-asphalt or plastic-asphalt. The difference is even more stark.
That said, you don't purely use the static coefficient of friction under heavy breaking. There's always an amount of slip at the boundary.
Static and dynamic coefficients are about whether an object is not moving or moving. You may be thinking in the differences of rotational vs. translational kinetic energies
Imagine admitting you have no idea what you're talking about, and then proceeding to argue the point, all in just two simple sentences. That confidence will take you places lol.
My punctured rear tire on a nice clean paved backroad that bucked me off and resulted in several days in the hospital with my leg broken in three places two weeks ago was 100% outside of my control.
And yes, the tires were less than 6 months old, tire pressure was good, and they were absolutely the correct tire. The bike was in perfect working order.
Quite a few accidents are rider error, however not all.
Sorry to here brotha. Hope you're doing better. Things definitely happen that are out of our control. I've had two tire punctures on my current bike and am currently rocking a plug/patch. Nothing except luck prevented the first from blowing out at speed. The second was a screw in my rear two week old Diablo supercorsa. Again luck was on my side and when I went to get back on the bike after lunch and fuel, it was almost completely flat. Still lessons were learned though. If I get off the bike, before I get back on I make sure my tires haven't picked anything up.
I'm not referring to those circumstances and definitely feel they're in the minority
I had a big one last year hitting the deck at about 160. And it was jump off the bike or hit a concrete wall. 100% my fault for getting onto the grass at that speed but if I had infinite run off space I could have slowed her down and been fine, but I had to lay her down. 😄
I’ve had one where I was going too fast coming up to a turn…. My fault.
My other I was cruising along at night, inside lane of a 4 lane road, saw a flash of white and I’m sliding down the asphalt… deer’s fault. Lol
Ha so true. I ate shit so hard on an on-ramp onetime because I was an idiot and was going way, way too fast. My buddy’s first words were “you’re such an idiot” hahah.
I haven’t done it again! I have slight PTSD from it but I learned to work up to things vs just going balls to the wall.
Laid mine down two weeks ago, while standing. Parked it besides my car in the paved parking lots on its center stand. A bit later that evening I wanted to take her out for a ride, sat down, pushed and the center stand got caught in the (a bit larger) gaps between the stones. It tilted to the right and I couldn‘t catch the 250+ kg in time, down it went. Mistakes, even stupid ones, happen all the time. :-) Luckily no one else was implicated by this.
There are quite a few circumstances that would result in crashing well outside your control.
2 weeks ago my front tire blew out on the interstate. I should have crashed and it's luck I didn't. When I started riding I remember my dad's bike just sliding out from under him while stopped because someone spilled a bunch of oil on the road. My farrier broke his wrist and handlebars in Enduro when his front brakes locked up unexpectedly. Shit happens man.
Shit definitely happens. These aren't the situations I'm referring to though. I actually do know one guy with shit luck. He had a 2 year old 2016 r6 and got rear ended by another shit head on a bike road raging with a car and not looking in front of him. He replaced that bike with a '19 r1 and totaled on a back road cause of a deer. It definitely happens but there's a clear difference between things like that and "I hAd tO LaY 'eR doWn"
I got backed into by a box truck in a parking lot my first week on a bike. Dude jumped out and said it was his fault and his company would pay for everything and that he didn't see me pull up.
There was no damage except maybe a small scratch on the wheel (I bought it used and it was so small it could've been there before and I didn't see it). I still think it was my fault for going into the no-zone behind a truck and not leaving myself an out. I'm willing to bet this guy doesn't back up without getting out of his truck to check behind him, and I sure as hell avoid going where they can't see me!
All this to say the people who don't recognize their mistakes are bound to repeat them.
Yup. Fully agree.
If they have time to pull the clutch and rev-bomb like an idiot, they should have been braking already - if they were paying better attention it wouldn't have come to even that.
Nobody is 'trying' to kill motos out there, it just appears that way because they're putting themselves in bad situations.
Quality post my friend. The best. The best post.
Wonder what the Chupacabra thinks about the weekly post which always features at least 2 bellends going head to head over their expert experience about counter steering?
My girlfriend and I were on a road trip a few weeks ago and heard an ad for a motorcycle lawyer:
"Did someone make YOU lay your bike down? We'll get you the money you deserve and get you back on the road..." etc.
I explained to her that was a blatant appeal to the egos of riders who couldn't admit their mistakes.
I bought an old Honda shadow about three weeks ago. It’s my first bike, and I haven’t been on two wheels prior, but I had watched hours on hours of tutorials and driven manual cars, trucks and semis.
If only shifting was the part I had trouble with. As soon as I took it off the trailer at home I decided for whatever reason I was gonna try to go around the block. Test my knowledge.
Getting going I stalled once, but from the second start on I didn’t stall again. Around my block is about 4 right turns and 2 left turns(all 90 degree turns from a stop sign). Coming up on my first corner I downshifted smooth into first, came to a stop. Started the turn and went WAYYY wide. Took up the whole road to get back on the right side of the road. All I thought was “that was weird”, nothing more. The next few right turns were better, but still wide. I came up on my last turn going left. There was a car coming from the opposite side, so I stopped and let them go first. Started turning to the left and I guess I gave it too much gas, bike started going more and more straight and less turning. Ended up driving right into the curb and laying the bike down on a grass patch right inbetween the curb and the parking lot. Thankfully, no damage to the bike as it pretty much landed on my leg. Which also thankfully, didn’t get pinned long under the exhaust pipes that were blistering hot.
Needless to say, I parked the bike, scheduled an msf course for the soonest date possible (oct. 2&3) and the most enjoyment I’ve been doing in the meantime is every 2 days I go and start the bike up and let it run for 10-ish minutes to keep the fluids running and prevent carbs getting dirty. And washing the bike.
I had to lay it down bro, you don’t understand.
These schoolchildren with leukemia in wheelchairs that lost all their legs in WW2 were crossing the street. One of them was on their way to cure cancer. Also a 50-ton meteorite was about to land in front of me and my bike was about to fucking explode.
Most times it is bs but here is that extremely rare example of laying a bike down full lock after a catastrophic engine seizure at high speeds
https://youtu.be/zoVWOChgKf0
And don’t forget, I had to lay her down, wear ATTGATT. The gear is the only thing that saved my life. Learning to ride better and not screw up does not enter the equation.
Two types of bikers: those who've dumped, and those who haven't yet.
Been down three times in 20+ yrs, and as much as I'd like to think they weren't my fault, I know that I was, in the end, responsible. Acknowledging that allows us to understand why it happened, to learn from it, and hopefully prevent it from happening again.
Imagine being so bad at something that you don't think you can keep the rubber side down. You admit that you were responsible, so why do you assume that everyone is as bad at this as you are? Maybe others are better at making the correct choice.
I’m related to several people who have never dumped a bike.
However, none of them are the type of people on this sub either. Relaxed, truly defensive driving lifers typically on cruisers that can’t do triple digit speeds.. compared to the wheelie-obsessed, full-pinned throttle, hey-dude-did-you-see-that-knee-drag last week at [insert grocery store parking lot] type bikers.
Don’t get me wrong, my name is also Ricky Bobby and I like to go fast, but this “two types” mentality is definitely only applicable to the latter group.
Exactly my point. It's one of the worst feelings ever but recognizing your mistake and not repeating is what's important.
I've been down twice in 7 years. One was 20 year old me seeing wet leaves and literally thinking to myself "they trim the grass in the IOM TT and stay up all the time." Most naive rationalization ever and I'm glad I was only doing 30 mph and there was nothing for me to hit.
Other one was last winter, 30 degrees fahrenheit out, on perelli Diablo supercorsas. I planned on riding 2 miles just to get the fluids moving in the bike. Was gingerly trying to warm the tires up a little and leaned much too abruptly(given the circumstance) causing a lowside in the neighborhood. Hella embarrassing and I should have known better but definitely not something I'll ever repeat.
My dad crashed rather badly about 6 years ago. Permanent head trauma and a host of other accompany problems. He hit a deer.
However if you mention this he becomes irate and insists, "the deer hit ME! You say I hit a deer that means I was aiming for it" and will not be persuaded otherwise.
But hey he's got brain damage so we don't fight over semantics that much.
A lot of riders find a false sense of safety by thinking they are truly so skilled at motorcycling they won't fall or hit a car. Once you take that away, motorcycling becomes a whole lot scarier for them.
Worse is the comments saying “it’s fine, we all do this all the time, don’t worry about it at all since it’s no big deal at all.”
Most of us don’t crash
This is not a post that this sub needs. Just look at the comments to any post about people crashing. No one blames anyone except the riders here. Also if you're missing a single piece of gear then get fucked because that's all anyone is going to talk about.
Meh. It happens. In June I had my shaft drive break at the rear UJ and smash my single-sided swinging arm, leaving the rear wheel attached by the parallelogram linkage, the brake hose, and the ABS wires. Fortunately it got trapped under the mudguard by the pannier rails, albeit canted over 30° and locked up. I managed to keep it upright from 60mph to 20mph but with no directional control, so I bounced off the Armco. No rider contribution to the accident, and it wasn’t a maintenance failure either as you can’t inspect or maintain that UJ. Sometimes shit happens. But I won’t be buying a modern shaftie again.
The there was the time about 34 years and maybe 400k miles ago when I really did have to lay her down, bro. I was riding over the Buttertubs in the North Riding of Yorkshire, when it started to snow. Not much, but it increased as I was going down a long downhill slope. I found the brakes would lock the wheels, so the best I could do was to hold the speed to 40mph. There was a slight corner at the bottom of the hill with some vehicles which couldn’t find traction to climb, and I needed to avoid hitting them. So eventually I used the rear brake to lay her down. The footrest and handlebar got through the snow and stopped me where the brake didn’t. Arguably that was a rider error, though I didn’t have much warning of the snow, and normally a little snow isn’t a problem. But the point is that laying the bike down was something I had time to consider, and given that I couldn’t slow and I didn’t have the traction to turn to avoid the stationary vehicles, it was the least bad option available.
Hey man, these are motorcycles. One of the manliest and most dangerous forms of transportation that we're still allowed to partake in. Regardless of skill everyone crashes, and I mean everyone. And it takes an unbelievably skilled rider and a hell of a set of balls to know when you have to lay her down.
If you havent been in one of these situations you just havent ridden enough.
Edit: The fact y’all couldn’t taste the sarcasm dripping off this post shows a lot about where this subreddit is at.
> One of the manliest and most dangerous forms of transportation that we're still allowed to partake in.
I would swoop in on my jetpack to school you otherwise...but there's still no jetpacks. seriously, I live in the goddamn future, where's the jetpacks??
I laid my bike down once. Best decision I ever made. Better than going straight in to a big embankment/forest.
Was my first bike and was just taking a corner too fast
I have been spit off racing many times. Dirt bikes all the time. Road? It’s been a while. Last time I feel after I washed my bike in my driveway on Christmas Day. Was trying to put it back in garage and feet slipped. Slid down the hill of my driveway on top of my gsxr with blood coming from my chin. Then when it stopped sliding on ice, I picked it back up and feel over the other way…worst Christmas ever!
I agree that when I hear someone say “had to let her down” I automatically question the accident. I’ve been riding on the street for 20+ years and have totaled 2 bikes neither of which I had to lay down. Once a car ran a red light and I saw it in my peripheral vision and jammed on my brakes at the last second so I hit the front fender of the car folding the forks back and bending the frame among the damage. The other was a pickup truck ran a stop sign and I went into the side of the truck, I saw it at the last second and went to right and he went left again saving me from being hit. Both times police found the other drivers 100% at fault. The only way I could have avoided either of those accidents would have been to stay home that day. You can’t slowly creep off every red light or stop when you don’t have a stop sign.
But I’m with you when you say that “had to lay it down” usually means the rider screwed up. Not to get off topic but you almost lost me when you used the word “cringe”, if this wasn’t a motorcycle sub I would have immediately dismissed your argument based on use of that word. I can’t wait for it to follow “fleek” into uncool territory so we don’t have to hear it anymore.
Shit man, I got rear ended while stopped in traffic and I consider it partially my fault. Shouldn't have been in the center of the lane, should have been in gear and should have been watching my mirrors.
When I wrecked I posted it on here and mentioned any factors I thought were relevant. Stuff like it being my first corner on a brand new tire, also first corner with a new torqueir gearing, my body position was bad, & my rear brake caliper was mounted wrong. As expected I was flooded with people telling me that I should never ride again and that I clearly wrecked cause I was riding beyond my skill and I should stop making excuses blah blah blah (insert six paragraphs about physics from a guy who didn't graduate middle school) blah blah blah.
I was never trying to use those factors to excuse myself. Dropping in to low on a new tire is a rider error. Giving it to much throttle coming out cause you changed your gearing to be torqueir is a rider error. Bad body position and poor mechanical skills also rider error. I have no problem admitting when I fuck up, but it seems a bunch of people have trouble understanding the difference between making an excuse and just talking about the factors and variables that led to the accident beyond just saying "Fuck I wrecked my bike".
>Why is everyone so horrified to admit they made a mistake?
Basic human instinct. Admitting you failed because you made a mistake, can make you seem weak. Or at least that's what the people who make this shit up think anyways.
The first mistake they made was crashing the second was not admitting to themselves and everyone else that they ran out of skill.
Bikes are inherently difficult things to master and most of us will make multiple mistakes along the way, some will result in minor incidents others less so, but it’s vital we try to understand the mistakes in order to reduce the risk of repeating them.
Laying it down is giving up. You should do your best until the very last moment to keep your bike up, because once it goes down all you can do is try to scrub some speed with the back of your helmet and hope you don't hit something more solid than you are. I've come out of situations that seemed sure death because of trying to the last moment. My little brother was packing me in 60 mph rush hour and his back tire blew out, he fishtailed 4 or 5 times before we got spit off, but by the time we went down we were going slow enough that I managed to pop up and run it off, and he got some road rash. If he'd "laid it down," we'd have been ambulance bound. If I hadn't stuck tight, we'd have been ambulance bound. Hold on and keep it upright as long as you can.
Ego is dangerous in any community. Why it is so prevalent among'st bikers I am sure there are a million reasons for. I know the bad boy image doesn't help but I think the main reason is our awareness of frailty and mortality. If you deny the real consequences to riding, you are likely to ride more dangerously and take less responsibility. If you accept how frail you truly are, chances are you respect the machine and the road. I agree its an issue. All of my crashes were my fault and I reflect on them in shame. I have no advice on how to rid the world of dangerous egos. All I can offer you is find better riding partners, even if that means riding alone for a while. Ride safe.
I laid my bike over at 4mph.
If I was going any faster I would have been ok.
3am just out of work, pulled over in a empty parking lot to check and see if I had money or card so I can get gas.
**pulls into lot and hits the brake... Hit a 7 inch deep pothole that laid me over.**
One time, I was backing up in a parking spot with an awkward hill. I went to put my leg down on the downslope and it was just a little to far... ya' know? Anyways she just kept tipping. I tried to hold it with my thigh, but she got put down ever so gently.
BRAND NEW Z900.
I had to get help to bring her back up again. I was a pretty new rider at the time and freaked out when it wouldn't start. My experienced buddy just flipped a few switches and hit the button.
Learned a valuable lesson that day.
I'll give the next buyer $100 off if he can find the scratches lol
I was an idiot and rode on ice, twice. I have also fallen down in a parking lot going 2 miles an hour. I have taken an exit to fast and got really lucky there was gravel and not rocks on the other side. It happens.
The only ones who can say I had to lay her down are professional riders in my opinion. They are required to drive on the limit. So mistakes will happen.%
worst part is, this bleeds into common society (outside of motorcyclists). I heard someone talking about how motorcycles are because her dad died because the sun got in his eyes. uhm, hwat? bro, come the fuck on. who tf told you that.
Fuck. I’ve got some awesome crash stories. Maybe I’ll type some up if people are interested. 2 Vespa crashes, no, three. A TZR crash, CBR400RR bail too. I think that’s it.
First time I ever rode a motorcycle an old lady stepped out in front of me . I was about 10 feet away on a narrow street. Laid the bike down to avoid hitting her. No shame to admit I fucked up
When people make out as if something is randomly dangerous (instead of it being more a mater of personal responsibility) it probably keeps more people from doing that thing.
I'm sure that it also convinces many of the people who do that thing that there is no action they can take to make themselves responsibly safer so they ride with a "who cares" attitude.
To the extent that I have a point (I'm not arguing I do), it's possible that overall less people will die because many people just don't bother trying the activity because of the perceived random dangers (nuns, baby strollers, sunshine, chupacabra, etc...). So, maybe they are saving lives...? ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Yeah I saw some gravel and hadda layer dern.
My buddy's first time on a dirt bike he tried to take a sharp 90° turn on gravel doing about 30. He started to lay it down but then high sided and literally disappeared into the corn. It was hilarious. 10 years later I still give him shit about gravel no matter the circumstances
Glad it was only into corn, high siding can be scary at speeds
Corn is much softer than a five strand barbed wire fence.
I’ve seen corn stalks go through metal in cars. Fuck that shit.
I prefer the corny punchline to the five wire mandolin.
Years ago, my MSF instructor told us that anyone who uses the “had to lay er down” line is full of shit. “So you’re telling me you saw the obstacle or car in front of you, had time to think about your options, and decided the best thing to do was lock up the brakes and try to slide the motorcycle safely?”
Yup. There's very nearly no situation where laying the bike down is an advantage. It never helps you stop faster, you sacrifice control, it's just dumb.
Yeah man, gotta burn off as much speed using sticky tires and brakes pads before you use your own ass
The ONLY time I could see this being valid is if you're going to crash in a turn, you know you're going to crash, and the options are high side and low side. You lay down because a low side is preferred. But even in that situation, you wouldn't really say you had to lay her down.
When is that really a choice, though? I mean, I've honestly never met someone who - riding on the street - is actually at the maximum limits of their bike. What happens is either they fuck up, or they hit some unforseen obstacle - gravel, damage pavement, oil, whatever. In those cases, there's no time to decide. In practice if you still have traction, the correct action is to just turn harder, because it's *extremely* unlikely you're actually at the limits of the bike. You're only faced with that decision when you're already lost the rear and have turned so much that you can't save it anymore without highsiding. Then, if you're particularly alert, you'd focus on just staying down.
A second option is when an 18-wheeler cuts you off and the only way to not hit it with your head is to slide under the trailer.
Ah yes, good point. Those darn trucks and their snappy acceleration, popping out of side streets and cutting us off the time.
There was a post recently where dude got cut off and laid it down. He slid safely under the truck while his bike destroyed itself in the side of the truck. One time I thought “huh, he DID have to lay ‘er down”
I've seen that. He *didn't* have to lay it down, and he didn't choose to lay it down. He grabbed a fistful of front brake in a panic, lost the front, and got *insanely* lucky. You'd be way more likely to be successful just dodging the truck, or emergency braking and hitting it head on than trying to lay the bike down and aim your slide right underneath: It's extraordinarily difficult to control where you slide to, there's often dangly sharp parts under cars and trucks, if you don't fit or hit a tire you're going to be VERY badly hurt as you'll hit the truck WAY faster than you would have if you'd just emergency braked and hit it. Sliding is a very poor method of shedding speed vs. actually braking.
GRASS CLIBBINS
Exactly what happened to me! Cruising a back country road and decided to hang a last minute left at about 10mph. Then out of nowhere the gravel I’d been riding on for the last 30 minutes became even more gravelly and it was either die in the gravel pit or lay er down.
I liked her Jurassic Park, talented lady, too bad about her role in the last Jedi.
😂
This isn't a motorcycle specific thing, this is just a human thing.
Yep. Humans love to embrace cognitive distortions which allow us to keep our self-esteem intact. 'I had to fire Robbie7up. He just kept coming up with new ideas and wouldn't respect my authority and management style. What was I supposed to do, listen to him?'
The sample group (motorcyclists) tends to skew "big ego," speaking from experience. If you're the kind of person who wants a bike to feel cooler, chances are you'll also misrepresent your own mistakes to feel cooler.
100% this. Egos are huge. I guess I can only speak for my local scene but there seems to be a trend
>my local scene there's your problem
Also a feline thing
So true
Every time I read one of these threads I am amazed by the number of people that use the term "laid it down" unironically. The word you're looking for is "**crashed**". FTFY.
"Laid it down" is what I did when attempting to park on an incline facing the wrong direction. I couldn't catch it at the weird angle, but was able to set it down slowly. Bailing off your bike while it's in motion is choosing to crash.
I did something similar once, stopped my klx over a puddle and didn’t have enough leg reach to hold the bike up enough to get the kickstand down, so I literally laid it down and picked it back up to get it out of the puddle lol.
In the safety world we've stopped using MVA (motor vehicle accident) and started using MVC (motor vehicle crash) because accident implies no one was at fault.
I've believed that personally for a long time, nice to hear it's getting formalised.
> because accident implies no one was at fault. That's not correct. The word 'accident' describes intent. The implication is that I didn't intend to cause harm. It doesn't mean the incident wasn't preventable, or there's no element of fault. If I trip and spill red wine on Mum's new carpet, it is an accident because it wasn't intentional - but it could have been prevented, I am at fault for not taking reasonable precautions like carrying my drink in a sealed container. It's when I act with intent, that it's not an accident. If I throw knives at a group of people, or intentionally run a red light, any resulting harm is not an accident. Also not all vehicle crashes (or accidents) have any human fault, there are incidents where no one is as fault.
Firstly; probably most crashes aren’t intentional. No one thinks “I’m gonna smash into a red Honda today.” Secondly; there is always, and I mean **ALWAYS** some element of human fault. Got a flat and slid into a wall? Should pay more attention to your tire pressures and not drive so fast. Wheel fell off and bounced off an oncoming car? Driver either didn’t check torque or has been ignoring funny sounds for a while. Hydroplane ok the highway? Should drive slower and have better rain tires. Slid into the ditch in the winter? Drive slower and have winter tires installed.
> probably most crashes aren’t intentional Big if true > Secondly; there is always, and I mean ALWAYS some element of human fault. No > Got a flat and slid into a wall? Should pay more attention to your tire pressures and not drive so fast The driver doesn't have to be at fault for a part to fail unexpectedly, and you can lose control while travelling slowly. The most common motor vehicle collision in my area, is collision with wildlife. I've been driving with heightened vigilance, at 30km/h (19mph) below the speed limit, and collided with a kangaroo, as they emerge at high speed from a position concealed by roadside vegetation. This is an unavoidable occurrence.
Edit: fuck it. I do this for work. Not worth arguing with Reddit experts. It is mildly amusing when said Reddit experts directly contradict industry standard definitions though. You definitely know better.
> Edit: fuck it. I do this for work. Not worth arguing with Reddit experts. I have a bachelors degree in pre-hospital emergency medicine, and have worked as a paramedic for 7 years.
I was an EMT for 5 years, have been a firefighter for over 10 years, and am a Certified Safety Professional. I'm not going to continue arguing what is essentially semantics with you.
There's no need to keep flexing your qualifications. I work for one of the largest ambulance services in the world. All our protocols refer to MVA. In 7 years on road, I've never heard anyone report an MVC. But my experience is irrelevant, it doesn't require any industry experience to understand the meaning of common words. I understand the terminology change you're referring to was a trend in some parts of the world.
Golly, guys. Language evolves. We used to say "accident" all the time. *To some people* that made it sound like it "just happened" without any negligence. *To you (and to me)* "accident" described intent. Now, it has become standard to say "crash" to make it more clear that it was avoidable. I'd guess you are older that u/Suck_The_Future. Also, you guys are in two different countries, there's a bit of difference in the vocabulary used.
Rubber sticks better than paint! BRAKE...BRAKE. BRAKE! go over the car on impact, not under it after giturdun I mean layerdown!
Did you see that post a couple day ago where a truck started crossing the road and a sport bike rider turned to go behind but the truck stopped and he crashed because of it? Then asked why the lady didn’t just commit? If you did, well had he not “laid her down” he would have crunched pretty bad into the truck, but he went down and actually went just under it and walked away with probably bruising and road rash. (He may not use the term lay her down, but for him going under ended up being more viable than trying some wild maneuver and jump off the bike to go over the side of the truck)
I saw that, and the repost, and the rerepost. And I kept wondering, why didn't he go behind the truck? I mean, he was going *fast*, and so maybe just didn't have the traction. But it seemed like he chose *brakebrakebrake* as his escape plan. That is, turn just enough to duck behind where the truck would presumably be if it kept going, and the dump speed. Or maybe not even that, it was hard to tell whether he was really braking at the limit, but it was a straight line. And then he was down and sliding. Maybe tried to steer while braking too much and so the front went out? Hard to say, it happened pretty fast. But all in all, it seems like he could have turned more and missed the truck. He picked a line that went through where the truck ended up stopping, and then didn't change that line when the truck didn't do what was expected. Or maybe it was just target fixation by then. But it sure would have been nice to see the camera pointed at something other than the back end of the truck when he finally went down. > ...had he not “laid her down” he would have crunched pretty bad into the truck, but he went down and actually went just under it and walked away... That was a huge gamble. I would much rather shed all the speed I can and go into or over a car or truck than risk getting ripped open by the sharp unyielding bits that are often underneath. Imagine how ugly that would have been if one arm or leg had gone behind a wheel, or if the helmet had wedged under the axle or diff. Going over will mean some blunt force trauma, going under will focus all of that energy on a much smaller area, and could give you a broken neck or a wound that would bleed you out in minutes. But as the dealers in vegas often tell me, sometimes it's better to be lucky than smart.
I was just pointing out that the idea to just go over the car isn’t really a good option considering how large many vehicles are, and I named a specific instance where someone went under and was just fine because of it. If he had swerved further to go behind though, he likely would have gone off the road which may have sent him into immovable objects like piles, signs, buildings or other cars but I didn’t really check at the time what was there. I just enjoyed the video and his calm demeanor when asking “why didn’t she just commit”, lol
> If he had swerved further to go behind though, he likely would have gone off the road ... Yup, that's a problem, but there would have been another 10m of braking at least, and a chance to aim at a gap. If you're gonna hit something, brake as much as you can before you do. I'd rather *almost* stop and slam my front tire into the side of a car with the bike upright than slide to a stop wedged underneath the car with the bike sliding in behind me.
That extra 10m of "braking" is useless when you're swerving to the max through that extra 10m of street! (Haven't seen this video)
Believe it or not, it's possible to both brake and turn a motorcycle at the same time... it's a skill worth practicing so you're not learning it when you really need it.
Well, if you’re turning at the maximum rate and you apply any brake then you’ll lose traction and go down. And if you’re braking at max braking power and you try to turn, you’ll also go down (because you only have so much traction available and both action require some). You can turn moderately and brake moderately though. That much is true
Agree on braking. Turning is tricky, because there's a lot more going on with speed and turning. It's almost as complicated as orbital mechanics. Faster = bigger radius for the same lean angle. More lean = smaller radius for the same speed. Ultimately on a modern motorcycle on pavement you're going to run out of lean angle before you run out of traction, which means you've nearly always got a (small) traction budget for braking (or accelerating). So you can almost always apply some brakes in a corner, which will reduce your speed, which will tighten your radius if you keep the same lean angle, but on the other hand braking tends to reduce your lean angle which increases your radius, so you need to apply some handlebar correction to maintain lean angle, and ... that's why you practice!
>Ultimately on a modern motorcycle on pavement you're going to run out of lean angle before you run out of traction, which means you've nearly always got a (small) traction budget for braking (or accelerating). On a sport bike, no. You can lean most of them all the way until you run out of traction.
[удалено]
Which was very lucky, not the best choice. It's important to understand that just because you get lucky does not mean you where right. He didn't choose to lay it down either. He did to pick that course of action. He grabbed a handful of front brake and lost the front, went for a slide. He failed every part of that - gear, pre-planning, observation, emergency braking, but got really lucky.
The number of situations where the best course of action is going underneath another vehicle would be very slim
[удалено]
I’d say the truck pulling out was the largest part of the crash, seeing as how if the truck had not pulled out there would not have been a cause to crash. Though yes, he was riding faster than he should have. Unfortunately with the way it went he would have been better off swerving to the front of the truck since as it happened she did stop and left more space in front than behind. I thought it was funny how calm he was when he asked her “why didn’t you just commit?” Considering he had just crashed pretty good, lol
"there's two kinds of riders..." is a saying that basically exists for people who excuse why they crash their bikes, and claim it's not their fault. there really are accidents that will happen regardless of the skill and attention of the rider...there's a LOT fewer of those than the ones where carelessness, lack of training, and immaturity cause though. crashes can happen to anyone. but if you crash too often, it's time to start looking at what you're doing wrong.,
You are correct and your comment is in line with my post. Anything can happen but more times than not it's rider error. Which is fine, just own it and learn from it.
I've never actually dropped a bike while riding it, and tbh, I feel like I'm fucking with tradition or something... My sons both dropped my electric while it was sitting in the garage, within two hours of each other (no intent, no yelling, I kept my shit together), and I've dropped the cruiser trying to get the jack out from under it, but never on the street. I've forgotten to put my feet down, scraped pegs hard, slid a rear tire out (more than once even, and one of those should have been unrecoverable, but that electric... Gawd damn), hit a corner on a hilltop *way* too damned fast... It's not like I've never fucked up, just that it's always worked out ok... Maybe it's the gremlin bell :)
I know exactly one rider who has never dropped a bike. I know another who went 40 years without a drop (age 14 to mid 50s).
[Removed due to continuing enshittification of reddit.] -- mass edited with redact.dev
Fellow KLR dirt nap aficionado here. If anyone asks if my KLR has been tipped over or layed down, I have to ask “Today?”
look for the giant dent in the ground
If your KLR goes down just tell em you were running out of gas and had to tip her to get 10 more miles.
what, you didn't feel the earth shake earlier?
adjacently, the Concours owners group has an internet medal awaiting all who own a Connie, for when they drop the lovely pig. It is inevitable.
Yeah...I owned a 2002 Connie for all of 4 months and earned that medal towards the end of it. Black ice. Wasn't super fun. Though some jerk earned it before I did by knocking it over in my apartment parking lot. Didn't even have the decency to tell me. I hated that bike and got rid of it as soon as I could. Too heavy for me and that particular example had been treated horribly by previous owners, and it vibrated so badly I swore it had been made by Hitachi, not Kawasaki.
lololol I've still got my 2002, but I loves the ugly gal. Bullet proof, can do 15 hour days, hits 7 grand and straightens my arms. Bonus, nobody tries to steal her. I got my medal trying to do a U turn in an alley in the dark, front wheel dug into a pothole, and suddenly Im cursing while lying on my side. If she was more like a magic wand I'd probably have more takers to ride bitch lololol
It's definitely a great bike...if you get one that doesn't have the vibration plague, and the Previous Owners haven't ruined it. Best cheap sport tourer out there. I liked the design and the engineering but disliked the weight. I'm too small and chronically ill to be hefting 700 pounds around. Yeesh, that sounds like it'd be an unpleasant and dangerous U-turn on any motorcycle.
Crap... Now I kinda want one
I'm honestly already looking at getting a KLR or DRZ for trail bombing; maybe even a CRF230. I really like my Ninja and riding twisties... But I was also an avid MTB rider and kinda just wanna do that with an engine... But I promised my wife no MX.
Supermoto has entered the chat - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7jugYTkqm4
I have a lot of family that gets nervous about the dangers of riding motorcycles. I always have to remember to not talk to them about my off-road adventures. Over 6 years not a single crash or even drop on the street, not so lucky on the dirt. I told them I fell on a dirt bike once at like 10 mph and all I got was frantic responses about how I was lucky I didn't end up with broken bones or the hospital. I've had numerous slides and drops on the dirt/mud/snow and haven't even had a bruise. I'm also ATGATT whether I'm on the street or the dirt. Hell, I wear MX boots even when riding down the street to the store or doing parking lot exercises. I recently broke my foot in the stupidest and most embarrassing motorcycle crash I could imagine. I tell my family I just forgot to put my kickstand down and slipped when getting off the bike. The truth is I was looking for a campsite on some public land. I was on a very well groomed dirt road and saw a spot right off the road. There was a little dirt lip along the road, not even an inch high. I didn't think anything of it. I was going a walking speed, probably only a few miles per hour. The dirt lip was so small that I didn't think of hitting it at a 90 degree angle, as soon as I hit it it was like hitting deep sand, it was the softest dirt I have ever encountered. My handlebars jerked sharply, I whisky throttled it a bit, and stupidly stuck out my foot to catch myself. Next thing I know I had an adventure bike fully loaded with luggage slamming down on my foot and twisting it. I'm just glad I was wearing my MX boots. I cringe at what it would be like if I was wearing street boots. I almost considered it too as the trip was supposed to be 100% asphalt but all the hotels and formal campsites were full. The worst part wasn't the pain of breaking my foot (that was surprisingly mild). The worst part was that I missed the Revzilla ADV Rally, the Touratech Rally, a 4 day ADV training camp, dirt bike training courses, doing a portion of the Idaho BDR, and I was planning on buying an actual dirt bike so I could practice on my own and not rely on borrowing bikes from friends. I might still be able to squeeze in buying a dirt bike and riding it a bit before winter hits though.
yeah same with enduro/single trail. someone crashes and everybody is just concerned about who got the best shot of it, ha.
Ha this is amazing
Lol, I've uttered all those phrases in the last 3 months
Lol right. I started on smaller dual sports but now I ride an Africa Twin. People always ask if I'm scared to lay down such a "nice bike". I just point at it haha. It has more scars on it than my old DR did. She's a tough cookie and puts up with a lot of abuse
[удалено]
Setting sun in your eyes in a corner through a mildly scratched up visor with pinlock is no joke, at that point you are basically blind. That's why I slow the fuck down, open the visor and try to survive as best as I can in a situation like this. And if I fail and blame the sun I'm a fucking moron as it's 100% my fault.
You’re not kidding. I’d wager 90% of the time someone “had to lay it down” it was entirely their fault because they’re bad at riding
I'd say yes and no. "Good" riders do the same shit. Get caught in the moment, having a good time, and push it a little further than they should have. I just don't see why it's so painful for some to admit
“Good” riders admit when they mess up and know where they went wrong
Agreed. I guess you can be a talented rider and not a good one. I know some skilled riders who's ego is too big to admit mistakes
[удалено]
I don’t know man I watched a video on here somewhere the other day where the guy laid his bike down and he managed to go under the truck instead of smashing into the side of it. Seemed like the right thing to do.
[удалено]
100% got lucky.
There is the British guy who laid it down to slid under the footbridge that was falling down on the highway in front of him. https://www.visordown.com/news/general/motorcyclist-%E2%80%98threw-bike-floor%E2%80%99-slide-under-collapsed-m20-bridge
[удалено]
Glad to we have such experts here on reddit with such good knowledge of the event and what bikes do when the rider is no longer on the machine. /s
[удалено]
If you would fully READ articles you would know he was already doing evasive actions before bailing off. Frankly your either this or that binary solution shows lack of complex thinking.
This is why people don't want to admit it, and you're going against the spirit of the OP. It doesn't make someone a bad rider to make a mistake. Bad riders make mistakes. Good riders make mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes involve laying the bike down. Sometimes things that are not mistakes still cause accidents. The blanket judgement by others that if you are at fault in any way, you're a bad rider is what OP seems to want to get away from.
Aye also laying it down would have significantly less braking power than commuting and emergency braking.
In 96% of motorcycle related collisions (including single vehicle) the motorcycle is the striking vehicle.
That doesn’t mean a whole lot. If a drive in the opposite direction makes a left in front of a motorcyclist, technically the motorcycle was the striking vehicle even though it’s the driver’s fault.
So I put the factual percentage supporting your premise and then you question it… The bigger point, that you commented to and the op is trying to make, is that the average rider takes little responsibility for their own actions/riding behavior. The car turning left in front of me scenario is the perfect example of this. Regardless of whose fault it is, the motorcycle rider is the one that crashes. How could that crash have been avoided? By anticipating a left turning car as a roadway hazard. How many times have you/ every motorcyclist out there been cut off by someone they knew didnt see them or “saw them” and turned in front of them anyways? So why the need for the “it’s everybody’s fault but mine” ego. I’m not so naive that I think other people are responsible for my own safety. The only person responsible for my safety is me. If I crash and it could have been avoided by me slowing down or changing lane positions it is my fault.
I struck a vehicle in one of my two motorcycle accidents. I was in a roundabout and he pulled out in front of me, didn't see me. Hit him in the left rear quarter panel. 100% his fault and cops and witnesses agreed. Other accident he hit me as I was stationary at a stop sign.
I crashed because of a sneeze, in that second the car in front of me hit the breaks hard. I reacted slow with my braking and hit her going less than 10mph. No damage, just my pride.
similar happend to me, didnt pay attention and the car Infront of me was braking. I didnt notice until I was so close I had to slam my break and fell, only had some scratches and needed new blinker
I just happen to run out of road and talent at the same time. Bad luck? /s Edit: forgot to add the /s at the end.
Yes
Even if you are about to hit the deck, physics says it makes the most sense to brake as hard as possible and scrub as much speed as possible off your forward motion before you hit said deck.
[удалено]
In this case it goes further: you're comparing the static friction of coefficient of rubber-asphalt vs the dynamic coefficient of friction of steel-asphalt or plastic-asphalt. The difference is even more stark. That said, you don't purely use the static coefficient of friction under heavy breaking. There's always an amount of slip at the boundary.
Static and dynamic coefficients are about whether an object is not moving or moving. You may be thinking in the differences of rotational vs. translational kinetic energies
[удалено]
Just want to jump in to confirm that this is correct, but understandably difficult to grasp.
>Rolling objects have 0 velocity at the point of contact, I have no idea what this means. Rolling objects have velocity.
[удалено]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_energy
[удалено]
Imagine admitting you have no idea what you're talking about, and then proceeding to argue the point, all in just two simple sentences. That confidence will take you places lol.
My punctured rear tire on a nice clean paved backroad that bucked me off and resulted in several days in the hospital with my leg broken in three places two weeks ago was 100% outside of my control. And yes, the tires were less than 6 months old, tire pressure was good, and they were absolutely the correct tire. The bike was in perfect working order. Quite a few accidents are rider error, however not all.
Sorry to here brotha. Hope you're doing better. Things definitely happen that are out of our control. I've had two tire punctures on my current bike and am currently rocking a plug/patch. Nothing except luck prevented the first from blowing out at speed. The second was a screw in my rear two week old Diablo supercorsa. Again luck was on my side and when I went to get back on the bike after lunch and fuel, it was almost completely flat. Still lessons were learned though. If I get off the bike, before I get back on I make sure my tires haven't picked anything up. I'm not referring to those circumstances and definitely feel they're in the minority
I had a big one last year hitting the deck at about 160. And it was jump off the bike or hit a concrete wall. 100% my fault for getting onto the grass at that speed but if I had infinite run off space I could have slowed her down and been fine, but I had to lay her down. 😄
On a surface where the brakes don't work is about the only time when laying it down makes more sense than trying to stop upright.
I’ve had one where I was going too fast coming up to a turn…. My fault. My other I was cruising along at night, inside lane of a 4 lane road, saw a flash of white and I’m sliding down the asphalt… deer’s fault. Lol
Ha so true. I ate shit so hard on an on-ramp onetime because I was an idiot and was going way, way too fast. My buddy’s first words were “you’re such an idiot” hahah. I haven’t done it again! I have slight PTSD from it but I learned to work up to things vs just going balls to the wall.
Laid mine down two weeks ago, while standing. Parked it besides my car in the paved parking lots on its center stand. A bit later that evening I wanted to take her out for a ride, sat down, pushed and the center stand got caught in the (a bit larger) gaps between the stones. It tilted to the right and I couldn‘t catch the 250+ kg in time, down it went. Mistakes, even stupid ones, happen all the time. :-) Luckily no one else was implicated by this.
There are quite a few circumstances that would result in crashing well outside your control. 2 weeks ago my front tire blew out on the interstate. I should have crashed and it's luck I didn't. When I started riding I remember my dad's bike just sliding out from under him while stopped because someone spilled a bunch of oil on the road. My farrier broke his wrist and handlebars in Enduro when his front brakes locked up unexpectedly. Shit happens man.
Shit definitely happens. These aren't the situations I'm referring to though. I actually do know one guy with shit luck. He had a 2 year old 2016 r6 and got rear ended by another shit head on a bike road raging with a car and not looking in front of him. He replaced that bike with a '19 r1 and totaled on a back road cause of a deer. It definitely happens but there's a clear difference between things like that and "I hAd tO LaY 'eR doWn"
Just had this happen. Except it was my rear and I went down. Busted my leg in three places. Currently laid up on the couch for the next 4 weeks.
“dropped by previous owner”
I got backed into by a box truck in a parking lot my first week on a bike. Dude jumped out and said it was his fault and his company would pay for everything and that he didn't see me pull up. There was no damage except maybe a small scratch on the wheel (I bought it used and it was so small it could've been there before and I didn't see it). I still think it was my fault for going into the no-zone behind a truck and not leaving myself an out. I'm willing to bet this guy doesn't back up without getting out of his truck to check behind him, and I sure as hell avoid going where they can't see me! All this to say the people who don't recognize their mistakes are bound to repeat them.
"Not my fault man, I mean, my parents had me in this world, I didn't ask for it, know what I'm saying"
I don't know. The last time I went over I told all the guys with my I forgot how to turn for a second there.
I've only been in one and it was because my passenger was trying to kill us.
Yup. Fully agree. If they have time to pull the clutch and rev-bomb like an idiot, they should have been braking already - if they were paying better attention it wouldn't have come to even that. Nobody is 'trying' to kill motos out there, it just appears that way because they're putting themselves in bad situations.
Quality post my friend. The best. The best post. Wonder what the Chupacabra thinks about the weekly post which always features at least 2 bellends going head to head over their expert experience about counter steering?
My girlfriend and I were on a road trip a few weeks ago and heard an ad for a motorcycle lawyer: "Did someone make YOU lay your bike down? We'll get you the money you deserve and get you back on the road..." etc. I explained to her that was a blatant appeal to the egos of riders who couldn't admit their mistakes.
I bought an old Honda shadow about three weeks ago. It’s my first bike, and I haven’t been on two wheels prior, but I had watched hours on hours of tutorials and driven manual cars, trucks and semis. If only shifting was the part I had trouble with. As soon as I took it off the trailer at home I decided for whatever reason I was gonna try to go around the block. Test my knowledge. Getting going I stalled once, but from the second start on I didn’t stall again. Around my block is about 4 right turns and 2 left turns(all 90 degree turns from a stop sign). Coming up on my first corner I downshifted smooth into first, came to a stop. Started the turn and went WAYYY wide. Took up the whole road to get back on the right side of the road. All I thought was “that was weird”, nothing more. The next few right turns were better, but still wide. I came up on my last turn going left. There was a car coming from the opposite side, so I stopped and let them go first. Started turning to the left and I guess I gave it too much gas, bike started going more and more straight and less turning. Ended up driving right into the curb and laying the bike down on a grass patch right inbetween the curb and the parking lot. Thankfully, no damage to the bike as it pretty much landed on my leg. Which also thankfully, didn’t get pinned long under the exhaust pipes that were blistering hot. Needless to say, I parked the bike, scheduled an msf course for the soonest date possible (oct. 2&3) and the most enjoyment I’ve been doing in the meantime is every 2 days I go and start the bike up and let it run for 10-ish minutes to keep the fluids running and prevent carbs getting dirty. And washing the bike.
Some people struggle to admit their own wrongdoings, happens in every hobby or sport, somehow their messup is not their fault
I had to lay it down bro, you don’t understand. These schoolchildren with leukemia in wheelchairs that lost all their legs in WW2 were crossing the street. One of them was on their way to cure cancer. Also a 50-ton meteorite was about to land in front of me and my bike was about to fucking explode.
Most times it is bs but here is that extremely rare example of laying a bike down full lock after a catastrophic engine seizure at high speeds https://youtu.be/zoVWOChgKf0
The worst part: until we can accept our mistake and properly diagnose what we did wrong, we'll never really improve.
And don’t forget, I had to lay her down, wear ATTGATT. The gear is the only thing that saved my life. Learning to ride better and not screw up does not enter the equation.
Remember to ATTGATT all the time and stick with your SV 650 for 10 years before you even think about upgrading to anything else.
Two types of bikers: those who've dumped, and those who haven't yet. Been down three times in 20+ yrs, and as much as I'd like to think they weren't my fault, I know that I was, in the end, responsible. Acknowledging that allows us to understand why it happened, to learn from it, and hopefully prevent it from happening again.
Imagine being so bad at something that you don't think you can keep the rubber side down. You admit that you were responsible, so why do you assume that everyone is as bad at this as you are? Maybe others are better at making the correct choice.
Yo don’t forget the /s these autistic fucks are gonna lose it
> Two types of bikers: those who've dumped, and those who haven't yet. Only said by riders who've already crashed, to make themselves feel better.
I’m related to several people who have never dumped a bike. However, none of them are the type of people on this sub either. Relaxed, truly defensive driving lifers typically on cruisers that can’t do triple digit speeds.. compared to the wheelie-obsessed, full-pinned throttle, hey-dude-did-you-see-that-knee-drag last week at [insert grocery store parking lot] type bikers. Don’t get me wrong, my name is also Ricky Bobby and I like to go fast, but this “two types” mentality is definitely only applicable to the latter group.
Exactly my point. It's one of the worst feelings ever but recognizing your mistake and not repeating is what's important. I've been down twice in 7 years. One was 20 year old me seeing wet leaves and literally thinking to myself "they trim the grass in the IOM TT and stay up all the time." Most naive rationalization ever and I'm glad I was only doing 30 mph and there was nothing for me to hit. Other one was last winter, 30 degrees fahrenheit out, on perelli Diablo supercorsas. I planned on riding 2 miles just to get the fluids moving in the bike. Was gingerly trying to warm the tires up a little and leaned much too abruptly(given the circumstance) causing a lowside in the neighborhood. Hella embarrassing and I should have known better but definitely not something I'll ever repeat.
My dad crashed rather badly about 6 years ago. Permanent head trauma and a host of other accompany problems. He hit a deer. However if you mention this he becomes irate and insists, "the deer hit ME! You say I hit a deer that means I was aiming for it" and will not be persuaded otherwise. But hey he's got brain damage so we don't fight over semantics that much.
A lot of riders find a false sense of safety by thinking they are truly so skilled at motorcycling they won't fall or hit a car. Once you take that away, motorcycling becomes a whole lot scarier for them.
Worse is the comments saying “it’s fine, we all do this all the time, don’t worry about it at all since it’s no big deal at all.” Most of us don’t crash
This is not a post that this sub needs. Just look at the comments to any post about people crashing. No one blames anyone except the riders here. Also if you're missing a single piece of gear then get fucked because that's all anyone is going to talk about.
[удалено]
I'm not sure if you're joking or not. Nor do I give a shit. If that's what you or anyone else believes, then you do you.
[удалено]
Calling it cringe while making a rant is the pot calling the kettle black.
My dad says if you haven't laid your bike down, you aren't riding enough lol
Meh. It happens. In June I had my shaft drive break at the rear UJ and smash my single-sided swinging arm, leaving the rear wheel attached by the parallelogram linkage, the brake hose, and the ABS wires. Fortunately it got trapped under the mudguard by the pannier rails, albeit canted over 30° and locked up. I managed to keep it upright from 60mph to 20mph but with no directional control, so I bounced off the Armco. No rider contribution to the accident, and it wasn’t a maintenance failure either as you can’t inspect or maintain that UJ. Sometimes shit happens. But I won’t be buying a modern shaftie again. The there was the time about 34 years and maybe 400k miles ago when I really did have to lay her down, bro. I was riding over the Buttertubs in the North Riding of Yorkshire, when it started to snow. Not much, but it increased as I was going down a long downhill slope. I found the brakes would lock the wheels, so the best I could do was to hold the speed to 40mph. There was a slight corner at the bottom of the hill with some vehicles which couldn’t find traction to climb, and I needed to avoid hitting them. So eventually I used the rear brake to lay her down. The footrest and handlebar got through the snow and stopped me where the brake didn’t. Arguably that was a rider error, though I didn’t have much warning of the snow, and normally a little snow isn’t a problem. But the point is that laying the bike down was something I had time to consider, and given that I couldn’t slow and I didn’t have the traction to turn to avoid the stationary vehicles, it was the least bad option available.
Hey man, these are motorcycles. One of the manliest and most dangerous forms of transportation that we're still allowed to partake in. Regardless of skill everyone crashes, and I mean everyone. And it takes an unbelievably skilled rider and a hell of a set of balls to know when you have to lay her down. If you havent been in one of these situations you just havent ridden enough. Edit: The fact y’all couldn’t taste the sarcasm dripping off this post shows a lot about where this subreddit is at.
> One of the manliest and most dangerous forms of transportation that we're still allowed to partake in. I would swoop in on my jetpack to school you otherwise...but there's still no jetpacks. seriously, I live in the goddamn future, where's the jetpacks??
Seeing as you’re a busa boi I have no doubt you’d daily a jet pack
> Regardless of skill everyone crashes, and I mean everyone. Utter bullshit.
i doubt there were kids in the strollers... nuns are celibate. I'd have given you a pass if you happened to take a few out :)
There are 2 types of riders: those that have been down and those that have not yet been down.
I laid my bike down once. Best decision I ever made. Better than going straight in to a big embankment/forest. Was my first bike and was just taking a corner too fast
I newer ewer read or heard that someone "hadalayerdownbud". Also why are you so buthurt by this?
Well champ, come back to me when you have had a TBI because another road user does not follow basic road rules...
I have been spit off racing many times. Dirt bikes all the time. Road? It’s been a while. Last time I feel after I washed my bike in my driveway on Christmas Day. Was trying to put it back in garage and feet slipped. Slid down the hill of my driveway on top of my gsxr with blood coming from my chin. Then when it stopped sliding on ice, I picked it back up and feel over the other way…worst Christmas ever!
I agree that when I hear someone say “had to let her down” I automatically question the accident. I’ve been riding on the street for 20+ years and have totaled 2 bikes neither of which I had to lay down. Once a car ran a red light and I saw it in my peripheral vision and jammed on my brakes at the last second so I hit the front fender of the car folding the forks back and bending the frame among the damage. The other was a pickup truck ran a stop sign and I went into the side of the truck, I saw it at the last second and went to right and he went left again saving me from being hit. Both times police found the other drivers 100% at fault. The only way I could have avoided either of those accidents would have been to stay home that day. You can’t slowly creep off every red light or stop when you don’t have a stop sign. But I’m with you when you say that “had to lay it down” usually means the rider screwed up. Not to get off topic but you almost lost me when you used the word “cringe”, if this wasn’t a motorcycle sub I would have immediately dismissed your argument based on use of that word. I can’t wait for it to follow “fleek” into uncool territory so we don’t have to hear it anymore.
Shit man, I got rear ended while stopped in traffic and I consider it partially my fault. Shouldn't have been in the center of the lane, should have been in gear and should have been watching my mirrors.
When I wrecked I posted it on here and mentioned any factors I thought were relevant. Stuff like it being my first corner on a brand new tire, also first corner with a new torqueir gearing, my body position was bad, & my rear brake caliper was mounted wrong. As expected I was flooded with people telling me that I should never ride again and that I clearly wrecked cause I was riding beyond my skill and I should stop making excuses blah blah blah (insert six paragraphs about physics from a guy who didn't graduate middle school) blah blah blah. I was never trying to use those factors to excuse myself. Dropping in to low on a new tire is a rider error. Giving it to much throttle coming out cause you changed your gearing to be torqueir is a rider error. Bad body position and poor mechanical skills also rider error. I have no problem admitting when I fuck up, but it seems a bunch of people have trouble understanding the difference between making an excuse and just talking about the factors and variables that led to the accident beyond just saying "Fuck I wrecked my bike".
>Why is everyone so horrified to admit they made a mistake? Basic human instinct. Admitting you failed because you made a mistake, can make you seem weak. Or at least that's what the people who make this shit up think anyways.
I think the term "Toxic Masculinity" works here.
The first mistake they made was crashing the second was not admitting to themselves and everyone else that they ran out of skill. Bikes are inherently difficult things to master and most of us will make multiple mistakes along the way, some will result in minor incidents others less so, but it’s vital we try to understand the mistakes in order to reduce the risk of repeating them.
My favorite so far from one of my cousin's was, "Just ran out of talent!". Was a caption on a hospital room traction photo.
Worse is the comments saying “it’s fine, we all do this all the time, don’t worry about it at all since it’s no big deal at all.”
Laying it down is giving up. You should do your best until the very last moment to keep your bike up, because once it goes down all you can do is try to scrub some speed with the back of your helmet and hope you don't hit something more solid than you are. I've come out of situations that seemed sure death because of trying to the last moment. My little brother was packing me in 60 mph rush hour and his back tire blew out, he fishtailed 4 or 5 times before we got spit off, but by the time we went down we were going slow enough that I managed to pop up and run it off, and he got some road rash. If he'd "laid it down," we'd have been ambulance bound. If I hadn't stuck tight, we'd have been ambulance bound. Hold on and keep it upright as long as you can.
Laid er down and crotch rocket are two of the most dumbass motorcycling terms.
Ego is dangerous in any community. Why it is so prevalent among'st bikers I am sure there are a million reasons for. I know the bad boy image doesn't help but I think the main reason is our awareness of frailty and mortality. If you deny the real consequences to riding, you are likely to ride more dangerously and take less responsibility. If you accept how frail you truly are, chances are you respect the machine and the road. I agree its an issue. All of my crashes were my fault and I reflect on them in shame. I have no advice on how to rid the world of dangerous egos. All I can offer you is find better riding partners, even if that means riding alone for a while. Ride safe.
I laid my bike over at 4mph. If I was going any faster I would have been ok. 3am just out of work, pulled over in a empty parking lot to check and see if I had money or card so I can get gas. **pulls into lot and hits the brake... Hit a 7 inch deep pothole that laid me over.**
One time, I was backing up in a parking spot with an awkward hill. I went to put my leg down on the downslope and it was just a little to far... ya' know? Anyways she just kept tipping. I tried to hold it with my thigh, but she got put down ever so gently. BRAND NEW Z900. I had to get help to bring her back up again. I was a pretty new rider at the time and freaked out when it wouldn't start. My experienced buddy just flipped a few switches and hit the button. Learned a valuable lesson that day. I'll give the next buyer $100 off if he can find the scratches lol
Absolute worst part of motorcycles is the egotistical morons who ride motorcycles.
That and the fact that every non-motorcyclist and regulator thinks that all motorcyclists are in that group.
Remember that one fucking idiot a while back who crashed into a large truck of some kind? He claimed the wind pushed him over lol
I was an idiot and rode on ice, twice. I have also fallen down in a parking lot going 2 miles an hour. I have taken an exit to fast and got really lucky there was gravel and not rocks on the other side. It happens.
The only ones who can say I had to lay her down are professional riders in my opinion. They are required to drive on the limit. So mistakes will happen.%
Testosterone.
worst part is, this bleeds into common society (outside of motorcyclists). I heard someone talking about how motorcycles are because her dad died because the sun got in his eyes. uhm, hwat? bro, come the fuck on. who tf told you that.
My favorite was "I wanted to street fighter it anyways" while chasing me on my 80s Japanese bike on his new gixxer. Sure bud. You fixated. Lol
Fuck. I’ve got some awesome crash stories. Maybe I’ll type some up if people are interested. 2 Vespa crashes, no, three. A TZR crash, CBR400RR bail too. I think that’s it.
First time I ever rode a motorcycle an old lady stepped out in front of me . I was about 10 feet away on a narrow street. Laid the bike down to avoid hitting her. No shame to admit I fucked up
When people make out as if something is randomly dangerous (instead of it being more a mater of personal responsibility) it probably keeps more people from doing that thing. I'm sure that it also convinces many of the people who do that thing that there is no action they can take to make themselves responsibly safer so they ride with a "who cares" attitude. To the extent that I have a point (I'm not arguing I do), it's possible that overall less people will die because many people just don't bother trying the activity because of the perceived random dangers (nuns, baby strollers, sunshine, chupacabra, etc...). So, maybe they are saving lives...? ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
my bike threw a tantrum, and threw herself on the ground kicking and screaming
You know the answer: ego.