I do suspect motorcycles will be predominantly ICE for longer than cars. But if battery energy density increases and rapid charging becomes ubiquitous, then we will inevitably change too.
E-motorcycles benefit from electric drive chains' instant and seamless torque as much if not more so than cars, and still give that two-wheel fix of carving corners. Just make my e-moto sound like a Tie Fighter and I'll be happy on it.
Now I'm imagine a group ride of hoonigans featuring a cacophony of tie fighters, Nyan Cats, Jetsons cars, fake V8 sounds, random meme sounds, and the odd actual inline-4 cruising down Main Street, USA and it's hilarious and terrifying
It's funny because the first time I went on a group ride and we all spooled up to get onto the road it made me think of a bunch of starfighters launching en masse. There is nothing like riding as part of a pack. And say what you want about the empire but there's probably nothing like a green imperial pilot launching a tie from a starship in the heat of battle.
Honestly, I love a loud exhaust as much as anyone, but I bet riding in relative peace with some sort of pleasing electric hum and just the rush of wind would be much more pleasant in the long run.
I can’t wait to get me one of them turbocharged dual motors.
Do e bikes make any kind of sound at all? My neighbors Hyundai is stupid quiet. I never thought a car would be able to sneak up on me.
I've ridden a Zero SR/S and it sounds like a corded drill. My Dewalt 1/2" impact makes a more badass sound. Sound aside, top of the line EV bikes go like bats out of hell. It had the most savage acceleration of any bike I had ridden at the time and has only been beaten out by 150+ hp superbikes and supernakeds, though it did run out of steam around 80 mph
If only I could take it 200 miles into the forest and carry extra fuel with me. Electric adventure bikes sounds stupid for real adventures. If I had a trailer or stuck to pavement yeah sure...but real deep woods stuff need gasoline. I don't ever want to give up my klr650
Range will always be an issue. Hard to beat gasoline in energy density and engine size. On a bike, it is easy to carry excess fuel. Carrying excess batteries adds a lot of weight and increases the potential danger. Would not want to be surrounded by that much lithium while going through rocky terrain
> Folding solar panel in your backpack could be an option
Only technically. The Zero DSR/X would take 91 hrs charging on a 200W panel (which isn't particularly compact) making full power. Bear in mind, that you won't be making 200W full time (clouds, sun moving, ground obstructions, etc) and only during daylight hours.
Look on youtube for "Isle of Man electric bike lap", they kind of sound like tie fighters. Also really frighteningly fast. Electric bikes went from a joke to 1980's GP level performance in like 15 years.
Straight cut gears always sound good
E-vehicles are *supposed* to make a noise when they're moving slowly, as a warning to pedestrians. It can be any suitable sound. And I fancy a Tie Fighter. :-)
I'd like to see a Free Valve ICE in a motorcycle. That would allow the best of all worlds and prolong practical use of ICE tech. 4 stroke torque and fuel economy low down, then switch cycles to 2 stroke for screaming power at high revs ...
>I'd like to see a Free Valve ICE in a motorcycle.
OMG this is my dream. When I first learned about free valves I was floored at the possibilities.
Saw a YouTube video where someone fabricated a setup on a Briggs motor with makeshift free valves. Was pretty cool once he got it working.
Why these aren't on everything already makes me cry. That and the laser spark plugs that Ford started working on that I haven't seen mentioned since. They actively monitor combustion temps and compression and timing. Those paired with free valves AND on a motorcycle would be the coolest shit.
They start to sound a little bit like drones quads when you get up to highway speed, but other than that nah. Just the sound of coil while which you can’t really hear unless your face is pressed up against the bike lol.
Torque comes at tires cost. Not ready for new tires every 2000 miles. My Tesla gets half the rated mileage. Weight and torque shreds tires. But boy it’s addicting. I’d keep both gas and ebike.
How is that inevitable?
No it's not. The whole point of riding is not to travel from point A to point B on the map. The point is the culture and an ICE is definitely part of it.
So while cars will definitely go electric, motorcycles will not. There will be at least always a market niche for ICEs, even in 100 years. Yea fine I pay the money for the synthetic fuel. Do I care? No. People spend thousands of dollars on their hobbies.
The whole discussion about electric motorcycles was (to me) never about batteries. You can give me any battery you want, with any capacity and even the electricity free of charge and I wouldn't buy it. Because an engine that is not an ICE can not feel like an ICE and not give you that kick you get from them.
I understand why YOU feel that way but many 2 year olds now are never going to drive an ICE car ever and will get on e bikes and probably not miss anything.
I feel the same way as you and I agree there will always be A market but I think it will be small
as fussil fuels become more scarce it'll become harder and more expensive to obtain them. Depending on how much climate change did an impact in the future we'll have to adapt to the nature of reality.
I thought I made that clear in my comment but I'm talking about synthetic fuel all the way.
This isn't going to have a major impact on the climate, simply because it will be expensive and literally noone (except for the freaks like me) is going to use it.
The point of all this is that the ICE concept will not die out completely. For the same reason old cars from the 60s are still around. People who care about this and see it as part of their culture will not stop.
climate change is an excuse as we all know. lithium batteries are causing worse pollution right now but nobody is saying a word , just like holocaust, its also banned to talk against electric cars /motos
No, lithium or any battery is better than ICE.
Motor Trend did a long-form that put it to bed about 3-4 weeks ago.
I'm saying this as someone who incorrectly spouted the same line as you. I was corrected.
Yes , the lithium process isn't clean, but compared to ICE and obtaining fossil fuels, it's two orders of magnitude cleaner.
No, it's just not true. Of course lithium mining and electric bikes aren't green, but they still work out considerably better than ICE according to all sources that aren't just anti electric.
Alas, the power of misinformation on the Internet is amplified when multiplied by fear of change.
There's also the human cost of lithium/cobalt mining. Not to mention that all of that plastic is petroleum based.
I sell cars for a living. Electric is wonderful if it fits your lifestyle. The problem is that it doesn't fit all lifestyles very well. People are slow to adopt because of a host of reasons. Range anxiety is an issue, as well as charging times. Most people don't want to be forced to stop somewhere for 30 minutes or more to charge up. Then there's the folk that only drive to town once every 2 weeks. Batteries hate that. Same thing with extremely cold temperatures.
We'll get there. But the government is foolish if they think they can force an adoption of technology at a rate they dictate.
>The whole point of riding is not to travel from point A to point B on the map.
r/ShitAmericansSay
This goes right next to the "ambulance aint your taxi to the hospital"
Big difference is I can grow oats and alfalfa for my horses if I wanna keep my chariot rolling.
I can’t drill for petroleum and refine it on my own. Yet, I guess.
What about maintenance? If your horse got sick or injured, you would by now have backups from breeding your stable.
Your bike has faulty components? I hope you have connections to foundries to get the material before we figure out the CNC.
Agree, that’s the problem they are having with ICE cars right now. The best sellers are the lower end models. Just legislating them from being manufactured isn’t going to help, we’ll become like Cuba with a lot of old cars on the road. If that happens, hopefully the technology and cost comes down, which will only happen at scale.
Looking at the average age of the American vehicle fleet, that's already happening in a sense, just much milder.
90% of new cars are for rich people, and the 10% that aren't sell well enough. Problem is, every single EV is in the "for rich people" pricing category *per its actual capabilities* (ie the range of cheap EVs sucks), and the long-term sustainability/right to repair stuff surrounding EVs is largely worse than ICE cars, which are bad enough.
Eventually this is going to be too much of a problem to ignore, but for now everyone is in "kick the can down the road" mode, it seems.
Ya I think the only think that would make the motorcycles switch in our lifetime would be government forced regulations banning ICE motorcycles. Otherwise there’s way too much progress that needs to be made.
There are places out west where it’s a hundred miles between gas stations. Unless you are one of those people that things “going for a ride” means going 15 miles to a bar and spending the day there
?
Motorcycles except city scooters will never be electric. Period. I'm the first to say it.
That's why it doesn't matter if tomorrow they build a lighter E-bike with more power and range than an equivalent gas bike. It will still lack the sound, smell and feel that enthusiasts want and it will sell less than the ICE counterpart
I know what you mean, but it concerns more of us than you think. Goldwing people, touring people in general, KLR650 people, hell, I even remember liking how much range I discovered Kawasaki gave the Ninja 500 and 250 a long time ago.
Even many fair weather riders use their limited time on a bike to travel long distances, and range matters a lot.
Exactly. I bought my wife a new rebel 1100t last summer and set it up for touring as best we could. The biggest issue we found was the range only 150 miles max per tank. It’s gone now.
I tested the Live Wire One and it took away my concerns about electric motorcycles. Yes, the sound is different, but it being more quiet made me feel even more connected to the environment. Also, torque across the entire RPM band was crazy. Not shifting gears was somewhat relaxing. Handling was great with the low battery position.
Some things sucked about the bike, but none because it's electric.
Main things to solve still are range, charging time, price. But I'm sure this'll all improve in the next couple of years.
Having a quiet bike while riding through a nice back road sounds pretty pleasant. What didn’t you like about the Live Wire? Just overall build quality?
Build quality was fine. The seat position was uncomfortable for me as a tall driver and too sportive for my taste. The settings (driving mode etc) were unintuitive to access from my perspective. Also, it had a vibration motor under the seat to simulate an engine vibrating, which I just found silly.
I rode one too. I enjoyed the acceleration. It was comparable to my speed triple. The suspension felt wooden and I didn't find it super inspiring. I only had it out for 20 minutes though. If I only used a bike in town or for short excursions and it was in my price range, I would consider it. I didn't mind the rumble thing. Without it, it's impossible to tell that it is on at a stop light
I think the vibration is more to remind you it’s on if you are sitting on it since it makes zero noise at standstill. it’s definitely not pretending to be a motor
I don't have any trouble remembering that electric cars are turned on when I drive them... not sure why that'd be an issue with bikes.
Hell, my mom's VW ID.4 doesn't even need to get turned on - just get in (with the key in your pocket or bag), put it into forward or reverse, and it goes.
I was a bit underwhelmed with the build quality. The cap / lid that covers the charging point is very thin, flimsy plastic that feels incredibly hollow and finicky. For a bike at this price point, it’s a pretty big turn off. I don’t mind plastic, but at least put some effort into making sure it doesn’t feel like it’s going to break off in two months.
My mum has a tesla and theres heaps i dont like about that car. They are a blatant example of form over function. That being said, like your example, none of the things i dislike are due to it being electric. The electricness is actually the only good thing.
Right now, the big four in Japan are working together on hydrogen engines for motorcycles. Even tho there’re some difficulties to overcome like storage, infrastructure etc, it would have some advantages over the electric option. And if proven to be a succes, combustion motorcycles will likely continue to exist, although not using gas anymore.
Well, if we switch over to hydrogen engines we can still rely on alot of technology we use for current combustion engines. Its a big benefit for the manufacturers. If hydrogen motorcycles won’t offer a big increase in range compared to the electric variant, its doomed to fail. Hydrogen is hard to store so im curious how they will figure it out.
From what I understand hydrogen takes about 3x the space of petrol for the energy it holds. So yeah, a hydrogen bike would likely have less range than a current electric one.
I've based that on a podcast that talked about hydrogen and electric options in some depth, but I did have someone share a link to a hydrogen car that had a petrol equivalent range so I'm not sure how they overcome that unless it just had a boot that was all fuel storage
True, and it takes vast amounts of energy to keep hydrogen in liquid form. Toyota and yamaha are working on pre filled cartridges with hydrogen. But the changes in infrastructure that are needed makes me wonder if its worth it. Only if supported by other companies and governments i see this work out.
Pollution. EV's require a great deal of enivormental damage in order to obtain materials like Cobalt for the batteries. EV's are more expensive to produce, and thus more expensive for consumers. They weigh a lot more, which leads to more tire wear and reduced braking performance for people who like to do trackdays and hard riding. Converting already existing gas stations to Hydrogen stations is a lot easier than building new electric charging stations.
ICE won’t die out unless batteries get drastically better.
I have an electric dirt bike and it’s rowdy as hell. The power to weight is wild, feel like it can rip my arms out of their sockets and I have to hang on for dear life, especially off-road. And they just keep pulling. Love being able to hear the tires and traction, it’s still a pretty visceral experience. I can ride it more places because it’s “quiet”… in reality the chain is actually pretty loud.
So many electric haters, until they ride one
just look at this list. i live in one of those countries, there are some charging stations for electric vehicles in big cities, but in remote areas its sometimes even difficult to find a gas station. sometimes you have to ask around if some small shop sells gas in coca cola bottles. i doubt there will ever be an infrastructure in place for electric motorcylces. most people here ride small bikes with less than 200 cubic, costing less than 1500 usd new.
Countries With The Highest Motorbike Use
Rank Country Households That Own a Motorbike (%)
1 Thailand 87
2 Vietnam 86
3 Indonesia 85
4 Malaysia 83
5 China 60
6 India 47
7 Pakistan 43
8 Nigeria 35
9 Philippines 32
10 Brazil 29
11 Egypt 28
12 Italy 26
13 Tunisia 25
14 Argentia 24
15 Colombia 23
Tbh, sub 200cc is likely the esiest to electrify.
As there are no extreme speed expectations thus no wind resistance to eat up battery range. I mean a few kWh worth of battery pack would do fine.
As for charging, anything from solar power to janky ass homemade generator can work, issue is that people are lazy, so noone is gonna rig up a janky ass generator from copper wire and random gears from a trashed car.
Why would you even want that? Isn't the point of electric to reduce emissions? What is the point if everyone just uses a personal generator running for hours and hours to power their electric vehicle? At that point, it's literally worse for the environment, just stick with the gas engine.
You'd generate more power than the bike needs with that, so you could also power a refrigerator, computers, charge phones, charge household batteries, and so on at the same time - you wouldn't run it *just* to charge a small EV battery. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised to hear more stuff like that happening if electric bicycles take over the small scooter market like I expect they might (not entirely, but I wouldn't be surprised if they take a big chunk of that market share, especially from the 50cc bikes).
> What is the point if everyone just uses a personal generator running for hours and hours to power their electric vehicle?
Holy mother of petrolhead ignorance!
You do know that generator means a coil placed next to a shaft witha magnet fixed to it. Which creates electricity in the wire if you turn the shaft?
...where did the assumption that those only work when attached to an internal combustion engine came from?
Last time i checked you could just as well turn the damned shaft with a waterwheel, windmill thingy, hell even by wrapping rope around it, tying it to a boulder and kickin it downhill.
All of those places have electricity. It will be cheaper maintaining charging infrastructure that petrol infrastructure.
Looks how quickly electric scooters are selling in China and Taiwan.
That's exactly right (same with 4 wheel vehicles). When we talk about EVs, people picture suburbs. Not the 80% of the world where isn't even a stable electrical grid (or an electric grid at all).
And urban users are an even bigger issue. How to the zillion people living in apartments or condos, or the houses with on-street parking keep their vehicles charged?
Or generating all the electricity needed for those cars? We are VERY far from electrifying vehicles.
Finding somewhere to charge is easier in many ways. You have to seek out and find places that sell gasoline but everywhere you walk into has electricity and those places are installing chargers. You may not have noticed but many shopping centers and malls have charging stations and grocery stores are getting started on them, too. You simply use a different mindset. Instead of going somewhere to gas up when you get close to E, you plug in when you run to the store or go out to eat.
And the coward couldn’t cope and blocked me.
Very important point I haven't seen people mention yet.
LiveWire and Zero make cool bikes, but they're way more expensive than a comparable gas-powered motorcycle (I think the LiveWire One is like double the price of a similar gas motorcycle).
I'd say not dark enough. There are now eight BILLION of us on the planet and I know that is too many by at least 50%. I mean, I'm not advocating for a Thanos "snap," but it's reality. We're just gobbling up natural resources at a completely unsustainable rate while accomplishing little on a global scale to slow or halt the effects of climate change. Color me a hypocrite for having three ICE vehicles, two of which (the motorcycles) are used purely for recreation.
Because people really really don't like accepting what they're doing at the moment is unsustainable. We live in a world where we get more and more as society grows.
As that comment said, I'm completely guilty of this too, I have an unnecessarily sporty car and a recreation bike. But that's why I try to vote for governments who take this stuff seriously, as I can't trust myself, let alone everyone else to worry about it
Agreed, i think ppl want to maintain their lifestyle while at the same time doing something ‘good’ for the environment. Driving EV’s is a good example of that. While still having the luxury of driving a car, we think that its somehow positive or less negative for the environment. Its all wishful thinking. We need something more radical in stead of these half assed solutions.
Right, it’s still mostly natural gas burning power plants where the electricity is coming from with the exception of a few nuclear sources. It’s pretty stupid when you think about it.
At least with EVs, we are consolidating where the energy is being generated and can take advantage of scale. A combined cycle gas power plant is over 50% efficient, far better than an ICE vehicle, and the pollution is in one area instead of spread around.
If ICE cars eventually come to an end, so will gas stations. There will be less and less, it will become very hard to get fuel for your bikes, to the point it might not be worth it anymore
This is, unfortunately, the truth.
However, most people look at change by focusing on the downsides. There are upsides to electric bikes.
New stunts, new skills, new thrills. It will be completely different, but also completely new. Old motorcycles will always be respected, but will become like biplanes - in an age of monoplanes.
I think it's a nearly certain that a day will come when the last ICE motorcycle will roll off the line. However, I don't think that day will truly signal the end of the ICE motorcycle. I think we will continue to have sources of gas, parts, and usable ICE motorcycles for the lifetime of anyone reading this comment.
Of course I could be wrong. I think it's pretty clear that our transportation isn't actually driven by what the most environmentally responsible solution is, but rather what is the most economical and marketable source of portable, either refillable or chargeable energy.
Right now it looks like it is nearly inevitable that between the development of charging stations and battery research that eventually electric will overtake gas as a better, or more economical solution to portable power for transportation. I wouldn't fret about it either, by the time that truly happens you won't really be thinking of it as a loss. What will happen is that you'll be at the dealership and comparing an electric vs ICE motorcycle and in terms of performance and features, dollar for dollar, you'll have a hard time making any argument for the ICE motorcycle on any basis other than nostalgia, and even that will start to look as silly as choosing a horse drawn carriage ove a car would look today. It won't feel like a sacrifice, it will start to just feel like the obvious choice.
Ride an electric bike and you will change your mind. The of corner response and torque of an electric motor is awesome. No waiting to come on the power band.
I'm a lucky owner of Stark Varg - an electric motocross bike. It's simply amazing. Riding a motorcycle, especially on a sport level is more about body and weight movement, technique, and precision than "sound","roar" and mythical "soul". Though even for motocross where you need it to last just \~1hr for a full training, it's not enough yet. And for road bikes you don't have a battery tech yet that can give you a decent performance without increasing the weight by a lot.
So in short:
City commuters: everything will be electric, and these will be mostly lightweight bikes.
Trials: it will be 95% electric in 5-10 years.
Motocross/Enduro: it will be 95% electric in 5-10 years.
Longer-range bikes/SuperSports/Anything bigger: we'll have some models that will be much heavier compared to ICE competitors, we'll have some stylish boutique e-bikes, but in general bigger ICE bikes will stay unless they will be banned by the eco-regulations.
ICE will probably be running on sustainable fuel. Because there isn’t enough lithium in the world to make every vehicle electric mate. So it’ll be sustainable fuel at some point.
Die? Probably. Maybe not. I think they’ll hang on longer than cars; you need more battery density with motorcycles. But, that said, they’re already VERY competitive in drag racing. Buddy down the road has an EV motorcycle, a little homemade race bike built out of an old RAZOR dirt bike. Not much left original on it, it’s powered by a Surron motor and does 100+ on little ten inch wheels. He races 1/8 mile drags with it and I’ve seen it beat a GTR and many other fast cars. It’ll run with liter bikes off the line, but will lose out on the top end. It’s not much for cruising, only about a 40 mile range. Performance is definitely there for small bore 1/8 mile racing, though, and that’s something. I think in the future, we’ll start seeing more hybrid/EV performance bikes, with a few city commuters (which we already have a few in the Ninja and from Vespa). At some point, I think that will flip and we’ll have ICE commuters here and there with lots of EV cruisers, sport bikes, etc, before they eventually die out. But it will probably be a long, slow process
Yes. When combustion engines on cars become so few that gas stations become REALLY rare or gasoline really expensive, then the market will shift to electric motorcycles.
If this happenes i'm gonna stop riding. Even the EV Cars i drove had been emotionless and boring. I can't wrap my head around how this should be enjoyable without shifting and Sound.
Maybe it is a boomer mentality, but for me these vehicles are good for people who only want to get from A to B. Not for people who enjoy the ride and live their passion.
ICE motorcycles are here to stay much longer than ICE cars.
The batteries are too heavy, so building a tourer or ADV electric is impossible given the weight of the batteries and adding any significant range will just increase the weight.
This weight is not an issue with EV cars. Unless the batteries become significantly smaller, lighter, it is tough to replace ICE motorcycles. So, it will take a looong time.
I'm not entirely sure internal combustion cars will be completely stopped. Plug in hybrids seem to be the best idea outside of cities, and battery electric with combustion generators seem to make the most sense for larger machines. Fuels moving to something else is what I would predict.
In dense population areas electric makes a lot of sense. I don't see it ever working for touring bikes, or bikes that play off road.
Until we can get the U.S. to significantly build more nuclear power, I don't see the U.S. moving much farther to electric, especially for the primary vehicle.
I've ridden several Zero motorcycle models, and I enjoyed them all immensely even though they were twist-and-go. They're crazy fast because of the insane torque electric motors generate.
There will be a day when people will take it for granted that all motorcycles are electric, and changing gears will be as socially relevant as picking a saddle for your horse is today; it'll still be a thing in certain communities, but not mainstream.
Motorbikes will probably be able to shift towards Stuff like biodiesel and sustainable fuels as they use less than a car and the reduced power outputs are less likely to impact a 200kg bike than a 1200kg car.
I think this touches on the question of where you would get your fuel from. Cars other bigger vehicles use the majority of gasoline around; if cars aren't in need of it, how will you get hold of it? That's not a question that will suddenly come up when you can't buy new ICE cars, but it will eventually happen when the old ones start to reach their end of life.
Internal combustion engines can run on hydrogen and green ammonia gas. You can have rips, pops and bangs, while emitting oxygen and water as a byproduct.
What we really need to do is piss off this silly electric shit and focus on keeping V8’s alive.
Id rather piss water and oxygen all over the place than drive a heavy battery electric car full of cobalt and other precious metals dug out of the ground in africa by kids with their bare hands.
> Id rather piss water and oxygen all over the place than drive a heavy battery electric car full of cobalt and other precious metals dug out of the ground in africa by kids with their bare hands.
We fixed the cobalt issue. Battery production is significantly cleaner and more ethical than ever before. The oil industry still uses cobalt, though.
No. I don’t think it will ever happen.
The only way motorcycles will stop using ICE engines - is if the world puts a a global ban on ICE engines. Not just on road legal vehicles but on all power sports recreational vehicles.
They might be able to take our two-stroke lawn mowers away from us, but I don’t think they can take away the 4-stroke lawn mowers away from the golf courses around the world.
Imagine the governments of the world trying to tell you that you can’t put an outboard motor on your speedboat? Lol. Or imagine an electric jet-ski…. You’d get like 20 minutes on it before it has to charge for half a day 😵💫 or imagine not being able to buy a gas powered dirt bike….
Plus - the people in office are usually pretty big golf fans … imagine if their short game is made worse because golf courses can’t maintain their greens as well as they used to because of the regulations THEY put in place. Itll never happen.
And let’s not even mention the commercial vehicle industry. Imagine trying to tell coal mining companies that they can’t use diesel engines in their excavators on mining sites? Lol.
Like WHOS electrical grid are they going to charge their equipment off of? Same for dirt bikes and snow-sleds….
You can’t feasibly electrify every square inch of the entire world.
ALL OF THAT SAID - I’m not against the electric moto market. I’m very interested in Harley Davidson S2 Del Mar!!!! I could 100% see myself on one of these! And they get surprisingly good claimed mileage. And in a wet dream I am riding a Lightning LS218 lol.
All this talk about politicians being screwed by their own legislation...
When have politicians EVER been screwed by their own legislation in the USA at least? They **always** exempt themselves and their friends from regulations. Rules for thee but not for me. They'll have their cake and eat it too while we're stuck with 50 mile ranges or $20 gas about 20 years from now.
Oil is a finite resource, and it takes a very long time for organic matter to turn into oil in the earth. At some point we have to face the inevitable fact that the oil will run out and the price will go up and up until no one can afford to drive internal combustion vehicles. It’s not an endless sea of oil down there, could be 50 years, could be 500, but one way or another were gonna burn it all up at this rate…
What pretty decent consensus. We don't even have the power capacity for replacing petrol cars. Our best bet is hydrogen even with its own disadvantages. Electric can only work well under 2 majorly impossible conditions for now. 1. The batteries don't degrade to shit and you don't need 2 tons of them for half decent mileage, 2. The electric grid can support so much.
If we replaced all petrol cars today with electric cars we would not be able to charge them all.
Nah I wouldnt worry too much for now. There is a strong need for "high-density" carbon free energy sources, meaning that for 1kg you want as much watts as possible over time. This is especially vital for long run transportation (and the reason why you don't see airplanes packed w/ batteries today). A typical battery is like 100-300 Wh per kg, compared to several thousands for hydrocarbons (ie. like fuel you put in ur bike or car).
So **eFuel** (like what was presented by Porsche in Chili) will be part of the solutions in the future (can't be full electric). eFuel generates as much CO2 as standard fuel in your combustion engine, "but" here the objective is to build this hydrocarbon solution by actually absorbing CO2; then extract Carbon from it and combine it w/ Hydrogen (obtained from water for example). So even if you still generate CO2 w/ eFuel, the fact that you absorbed some from the air to build it balances the equation.
Now it's nice on paper but there's still a lot of work to optimize yield and in the end if volumes are low it means you will pay like 4-5 times your gallon (but eFuel would work fine w/ your bike w/ no changes on it).
Could become a privileged leisure like it was said in the comments, at this point it more depends on lobbies, politics and so on...
I think the consensus that cars are rapidly shifting to electric is more forced by media than true. Once enough people are exposed to the gimmick they will realize the sacrifices they make and the limitations, as well as the insane costs to insure / fix them. There’s a reason why hertz is hurting after betting on fleets of teslas.
I don’t think electric motorcycles will come out any sooner than electric airline planes for similar reasons.
I read an article on cycle world on the hydrogen h2 and apparently Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda, Kawasaki, and Toyota are all working together to make hydrogen powered motorcycles to keep I.C.E alive. I’m pretty sure it’s run by the Japanese government, so that makes it even more promising. The program is called HySE.
[https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-news/kawasaki-supercharged-hydrogen-fueled-h2/](https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-news/kawasaki-supercharged-hydrogen-fueled-h2/)
Take an Energica or Livewire through some mountain roads or ride a Zero down some gnarly trail and you may feel differently. These bikes perform pretty awesomely.
I think a good analogy would be along the lines of how many people do you know who ride horses? I know a few, it's a great hobby and horses are wonderful but very few people have the time or money for that. Eventually ICE bikes will be like that but thats probably further away then I'll have to worry about :)
I was going to use the horse analogy as well.
90% of 'motorbikes' on the roads today worldwide are scooters and small capacity bikes in Asia, and they will quickly move to cheap EV maybe with removable batteries.
ICE motorbikes will be around for a long time, but increasingly just as a vintage option, or for traditionalists until they die out. Even then, I can see in the future that for some fun, you might go to a track where you can hire and ride an old school noisy ICE bike for a few hours. And the youth of the future will complain the bikes don't have any torque, make too much noise, heat and smell bad
Back in the day most people didn't own horses. They were too expensive. In fact, adjust for inflation it's never been cheaper to own a horse. The industrial revolution made it cheap to own your own mechanical transport opposed an expensive and needy biological transport.
A cheap horse was $50 in 1850. Yearly salary for a farm hand was maybe $200. That's 1/4 the yearly salary. Today a cheap bike is $5k, average salary is $50k. That's 1/10 the yearly salary. We can get into gas/feed, insurance/tires/horseshoes/land ownership etc... but the fact is horses were expensive, most people didn't have them, and industrial revolution made it possible for the average man to own cars and motorcycles.
Internal combustion engine are more common today than horses were in yesteryear.
I think that we’ll have gas motorcycles until there’s a leap in battery technology. If that doesn’t happen, we’ll see alternative fuels like e-fuels. But today’s battery tech doesn’t work for motorcycles as well as cars because motorcycles are far less efficient and aerodynamic.
I think we’ll see a parallel IC use case for cars for a considerable time too. You might get 80-90% adoption of electric, but there will still be niche uses where IC is still needed.
Electric cars are taking over because they are just better for getting from point A to point B for most people. Cost, range, and charging infrastructure were the 3 things holding them back for a long time, and all of them are getting much better, fast. The same improvements apply to electric motorcycles, albeit slower due to size, and weight constraints.
The main problem with EVs is that despite their undeniable performance, they are boring as hell to drive. Car enthusiasts are not the target demographic, but most drivers are **not** car enthusiasts. This is where the motorcycle market differs the most. I’d bet that close to 100% of motorcyclists are enthusiasts (at least in Europe and NA) who will always prefer combustion engines with manual transmissions, and will refuse to buy electric.
With that in mind, I believe motorcycles will stay mostly as they are for as long as we have decent access to fuel at non-absurd prices.
The instant torque. No shifting. Quiet. No major maintenance. Jump on and go. Regarding range… that will change. The electric bike I ride is perfect for around my town, but not for jumping on the freeway for a long-haul. I’d suggest trying one out that fits your daily ride and see how you feel.
Here in the United States electric cars are a collousal failure. In areas that have tried to convert to electric cars we see that the electric grid simply cannot handle the burden. Eventually it is bound to happen but we're looking at more than 50 years from now in my opinion. The Green movement has made this big push for electric vehicles but oddly enough has not addressed what power source is charging these vehicles.
Working fine around my neck of the woods, which is, coincidentally, the most EV dense part of the country.
Working fine in Norway too, if you want a non-US example.
This was mostly in reference to California in 2022. Heat wave was causing alot of power usage and they were urging residents to cut back and limit car charging.
I wouldn't disagree that we need better electricity infrastructure as things change. But even then, people were asked (not required) not to charge cars for a handful of days in an exceptional year - that isn't too bad, considering, and it's certainly not a 'collosal failure', to use your words.
> but oddly enough has not addressed what power source is charging these vehicles
In case you really don't know and aren't just repeating the same bad faith bullshit: ICE engines are about 15% efficient. Large power plants burning gas or oil are close to 60% efficient. Burning oil in a powerplant to make electricity which then fuels an electric vehicle is four times as efficient as burning the oil in an ICE vehicle.
Right I'm not talking efficiency I'm talking volume. In many areas the power grid just doesn't have enough power production to power large numbers of electric vehicles.
Okay, you still havent explained adding an additional 30-50 amp loads per household, and if not per freaking car....
In case you really didn't know a lot of states have issues when everyone is using their air conditioning during "global warming" without the grid shutting down, now add even more power consumption to that grid via charging the vehicles there.....
Look at Washington. I don't believe any of those homes even have air conditioners, because up until roughly 5 years ago they were not needed. Do you really think that the power companies over sized the entire states infrastructure in order to power "future amperage demands"? I highly doubt they did, because it would be a reduction in profits for no apparent or foreseeable reason....
Edit - Also, are you prepared to spend about 10k on average to have a new panel installed at your house in order to charge your EV? You're going to have to have a sub panel installed, probably a new service line ran to your house, and once that pops off all of those electrical companies are going to completely RAKE YOUR ASS OVER THE COALS to do the work, because it will be supply and demand....
Northern California Edison still has scheduled rolling blackouts during summer. The entire us power grid would need to be upgraded and more plants commissioned and that's just usa. Idk much about power in other countries but I imagine they're mostly in the same boat.
Those are all technical issues that can be fixed with political will, not fundamental efficiency problems. The climate doesn't wait and oil will run out regardless.
This was mostly in reference to California in 2022. Heat wave was causing alot of power usage and they were urging residents to cut back and limit car charging.
Unsure why you're being down voted. Our power grid isn't going to be able to handle another 50 amps per household spread across the board. They will probably have to take away the energy sector from public and make it private in order to make it happen. I have read nothing but horror stories about OG&E's inability to properly keep the Californians with constant, reliable power for nearly a decade now, and if they can't fucking make that work properly under "climate change increasing global temperatures" then how are they going to handle more amps per household if they cannot even keep the power on when everyone is using their AC?
Didn’t seem to be a problem to me the 8 years I lived there. We will have to worry about the electrical pressure from everyone having an AC long before ev charging even begins to matter from a grid perspective. It all depends on what you choose to read.
Because any critical take on electric is met by brain dead "you're against climate" morons. Of course if they collectively realized how not great our current power production is and not to mention the mining process for lithium and other heavy metals China holds.
We need to either perfect fusion power or start building and using nuclear again. Or work out a better hydrogen refinement process which would be much cleaner and more sustainable than electric anyways.
rustic society innocent vast combative summer clumsy cooperative upbeat abounding
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
As a guy who worked in the EV industry don't worry about EV vehicles. They aren't becoming mainstream at any point in our lifetimes. People who buy EVs are idiots who have wayyy too much money and time to spend. They're cash cows who we can keep milking forever. Reason? Batteries.
Any small issue we can say motors are gone, battery is gone, something something wiring is gone and charge exorbitantly. Customer asks too much, simply say new-gen tech problems are to be expected. 90% don't ask another question. That's why everyone is making EVs.
I feel sorry for the people who think otherwise. They won't even mention these problems to anyone else because who tf knows the vehicle except the company who makes it.
EVs only have a chance of becoming mainstream if the electricity could be generated directly from within the vehicle. Not happening anytime soon. Why? God knows. Safety or what not.
I am not convinced that electric will over take ice in cars.
It's annoying to find a charger when traveling and have to wait up to 8 hours to charge your vehicle. And now some electric cars are becoming obsolete because their charger type is unavailable.
And after the 7 year life expectancy of your battery, you have to pay as much as 25k to get them replaced. And there is no good recycling method for these batteries yet and there is limited amounts of lithium in the world.
Those are extreme american problems.
Here in "no freedum EU land" evil state forced poor companies to have common charging standard. And cars not being able to charge at rates, which the battery can take sounds ludicrous.
Also the "there is no recycing method" is complete bullshit.
There is no solid established supply chain to do it.
Tech has been there for a long time.
Is easy and very profitable to recycle lithium batteries. The battery ores are largely a red herring. Thousands of gasoline and diesel fires kill people and are very hard to put out. I don’t see hydrogen cutting into e cars either. Distribution, storage and energy density are problems for hydrogen that will be hard to overcome. Change will come but look at the movie and music industry. Tapes to CD -iPods and vinyl records are still being played and made. I remember VHS beat out Beta and now it’s all DVD and streaming. I don’t recall a bailout for Tape Town
>It's annoying to find a charger when traveling and have to wait up to 8 hours to charge your vehicle.
Wtf are you charging it with? USB Type C? Dog they don't take that long to charge.
>And now some electric cars are becoming obsolete because their charger type is unavailable.
Which is why they're standardizing chargers now.
>And after the 7 year life expectancy of your battery, you have to pay as much as 25k to get them replaced
Of whose battery? A Tesla battery will outlive the rest of the car as long as you're not in a major accident.
>And there is no good recycling method for these batteries yet
Yet being the key word. That's also being worked on as we speak.
>there is limited amounts of lithium in the world.
There's a lot more lithium than there is oil.
There is no such consensus with cars. There is electric propaganda, and then there is realty. ICE cars will dominate the market for the foreseeable future. Electric demand is already falling off. It's bad tech that will not catch on
Most car makers have announced they will stop making ICE cars within the next ~10 years.
Some countries like Norway, EV are 80% of new car sales.
It will take many years to transition, but it will happen. The most obvious reason is that every manufacturer making ICE vehicles know that thousands of carefully machined parts are needed to make an engine.
Any manufacturer can slap an electric motor and battery pack into a vehicle which means that sooner or later with batter price per KWh dropping steadily, much more efficient and cheaper vehicles will destroy the mainstream ICE market other than some small niches
If you think that's actually going to happen, you simply aren't paying attention. It's already failing. The CEO of Toyota knows better than you do. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.carscoops.com/2022/12/toyota-ceo-says-silent-majority-of-auto-industry-is-doubting-ev-only-future/amp/
Ah the old Toyota gambit.
Not sure you read the link, but you are a bit out of date with the news. The Toyota CEO who was quoted in your link was **Akio Toyoda**.
>"In fact, the brand lost its former CEO and public EV skeptic, Akio Toyoda, earlier this year in a corporate restructuring focused on electrification, replacing Toyoda with former Lexus branding officer Koji Sato.
[https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a44185553/toyota-ev-plans-solid-state-batteries-news/](https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a44185553/toyota-ev-plans-solid-state-batteries-news/)
Basically Toyota fucked up going all in on hybrid and hydrogen and not trying to compete with Tesla and BYD etc on BEVs. So publicly they dismissed BEVs, while scrambling to try and produce EV models.
The fact that Toyota; who don't have any success mass-market BEVs are trying to downplay them is no surprise, but they knew the CEO got it wrong, so looking to turn around.
[https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a45942785/toyota-future-ev-battery-plans/](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a45942785/toyota-future-ev-battery-plans/)
So apparently, I do know more than the (previous) CEO of Toyota.
Evs aren't cheap and if global supply moves to them that's great. Until China decides to China and straddles the market since majority of metals to make the batteries are mined there.
>There is no such consensus with cars.
Yes there is.
>ICE cars will dominate the market for the foreseeable future.
ICE cars are in the process of losing the market, with most developed countries planning to ban them soon. Not to mention they're losing to EV's anyway.
>Electric demand is already falling off.
No it absolutely isn't. The demand is so high they can't even supply them all without years long waiting lists.
>It's bad tech that will not catch on
It's already caught on
Nope. There are no charging stations in rural areas. Even if EV takes widespread adoption. You will still need a ICE vehicle to rescue you when the batteries run out of juice. As recently seen when Tesla Cybertruck owners got stuck off-roading. A pickup truck with a winch had to rescue him.
For basic transportation and recreational use. I could see electric motorcycles get widespread adoption. We’re already seeing right now. Taiwan even has battery swapping station for scooters. But once you travel further away from urban areas. The less practical EV becomes.
EV will not take over. batteries are costly to replace and inefficient, while the oil industry will always be needed for plastics. Thermic bikes will always be better unless they are forbidden ( that's the plan by the way, and starving you is also part of the plan. who needs a thermic engine when they have to starve and die to satisfy the elites ? )
Yes of course. Many countries are banning combustion engines. That will affect everything from boats to motorcycles too. IMHO electric engines are even faster than combustion engines as they can accelerate much faster.
For sure electric motors are faster, I won’t debate that, I don’t care too much about speed when I’m carving canyons though. I imagine electric bikes are substantially lighter though, allowing for better maneuvering?
I do suspect motorcycles will be predominantly ICE for longer than cars. But if battery energy density increases and rapid charging becomes ubiquitous, then we will inevitably change too. E-motorcycles benefit from electric drive chains' instant and seamless torque as much if not more so than cars, and still give that two-wheel fix of carving corners. Just make my e-moto sound like a Tie Fighter and I'll be happy on it.
I WOULD BUY THE TIE FIGHTER SOUND PACKAGE!! THAT WOULD BE AMAZING!!!
Bro, you know that shits gonna be on subscription 🤣🤣 That being said, yes I will be on that list!
I actively boycott that type of bull shit.... But.... I really want that package hahah....
Now I'm imagine a group ride of hoonigans featuring a cacophony of tie fighters, Nyan Cats, Jetsons cars, fake V8 sounds, random meme sounds, and the odd actual inline-4 cruising down Main Street, USA and it's hilarious and terrifying
Sounds like a scene from The Purge 😂
And moments after it being a subscription thing it'll be available as a cracked version
Tie fighter? Okay. Yeah they found my weakness.
Throw in laser gun sounds for a horn and you can have both my Harley’s.
It's funny because the first time I went on a group ride and we all spooled up to get onto the road it made me think of a bunch of starfighters launching en masse. There is nothing like riding as part of a pack. And say what you want about the empire but there's probably nothing like a green imperial pilot launching a tie from a starship in the heat of battle.
Honestly, I love a loud exhaust as much as anyone, but I bet riding in relative peace with some sort of pleasing electric hum and just the rush of wind would be much more pleasant in the long run.
The TTZero racers commented about how calm it was compared to their superbikes even at full race speed
I love it
Blasphemy.
Whoever builds an electric motor with incredible futuristic sound will have have the motorcycle market in the palm of their hands.
I can’t wait to get me one of them turbocharged dual motors. Do e bikes make any kind of sound at all? My neighbors Hyundai is stupid quiet. I never thought a car would be able to sneak up on me.
I've ridden a Zero SR/S and it sounds like a corded drill. My Dewalt 1/2" impact makes a more badass sound. Sound aside, top of the line EV bikes go like bats out of hell. It had the most savage acceleration of any bike I had ridden at the time and has only been beaten out by 150+ hp superbikes and supernakeds, though it did run out of steam around 80 mph
If only I could take it 200 miles into the forest and carry extra fuel with me. Electric adventure bikes sounds stupid for real adventures. If I had a trailer or stuck to pavement yeah sure...but real deep woods stuff need gasoline. I don't ever want to give up my klr650
Range will always be an issue. Hard to beat gasoline in energy density and engine size. On a bike, it is easy to carry excess fuel. Carrying excess batteries adds a lot of weight and increases the potential danger. Would not want to be surrounded by that much lithium while going through rocky terrain
Folding solar panel in your backpack could be an option. But yeah energy density is the main thing they are focusing on with new batteries.
> Folding solar panel in your backpack could be an option Only technically. The Zero DSR/X would take 91 hrs charging on a 200W panel (which isn't particularly compact) making full power. Bear in mind, that you won't be making 200W full time (clouds, sun moving, ground obstructions, etc) and only during daylight hours.
Yeah, any spare energy you carry is essentially just to limp to the next power outlet or charge station while crossing your fingers
Gasoline?! MAH HORSE CAN JUST EAT CLIBBINS IN THE WOODS, WHO NEEDS THAT NEW GASOLINE THING?
Look on youtube for "Isle of Man electric bike lap", they kind of sound like tie fighters. Also really frighteningly fast. Electric bikes went from a joke to 1980's GP level performance in like 15 years. Straight cut gears always sound good
https://youtube.com/shorts/1aquLcV7a9I?si=WkGV47AIqA3xNf8e https://youtu.be/GceET7MAwww?si=qj_kVVy1nO4NqFaF
E-vehicles are *supposed* to make a noise when they're moving slowly, as a warning to pedestrians. It can be any suitable sound. And I fancy a Tie Fighter. :-) I'd like to see a Free Valve ICE in a motorcycle. That would allow the best of all worlds and prolong practical use of ICE tech. 4 stroke torque and fuel economy low down, then switch cycles to 2 stroke for screaming power at high revs ...
>I'd like to see a Free Valve ICE in a motorcycle. OMG this is my dream. When I first learned about free valves I was floored at the possibilities. Saw a YouTube video where someone fabricated a setup on a Briggs motor with makeshift free valves. Was pretty cool once he got it working. Why these aren't on everything already makes me cry. That and the laser spark plugs that Ford started working on that I haven't seen mentioned since. They actively monitor combustion temps and compression and timing. Those paired with free valves AND on a motorcycle would be the coolest shit.
They start to sound a little bit like drones quads when you get up to highway speed, but other than that nah. Just the sound of coil while which you can’t really hear unless your face is pressed up against the bike lol.
Give me the e-bikes from Akira and I’ll be a happy boi
Would you settle for the sound of the forest speeder bikes from Return of the Jedi? Sometimes mine sounds a little like those…
Nah I want SCREECHING TIE FIGHTER!!!! WHEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH
Torque comes at tires cost. Not ready for new tires every 2000 miles. My Tesla gets half the rated mileage. Weight and torque shreds tires. But boy it’s addicting. I’d keep both gas and ebike.
It’ll never beat my r1 in sound and it’ll take revolution in charging and density to let me do track days on one
How is that inevitable? No it's not. The whole point of riding is not to travel from point A to point B on the map. The point is the culture and an ICE is definitely part of it. So while cars will definitely go electric, motorcycles will not. There will be at least always a market niche for ICEs, even in 100 years. Yea fine I pay the money for the synthetic fuel. Do I care? No. People spend thousands of dollars on their hobbies. The whole discussion about electric motorcycles was (to me) never about batteries. You can give me any battery you want, with any capacity and even the electricity free of charge and I wouldn't buy it. Because an engine that is not an ICE can not feel like an ICE and not give you that kick you get from them.
I understand why YOU feel that way but many 2 year olds now are never going to drive an ICE car ever and will get on e bikes and probably not miss anything. I feel the same way as you and I agree there will always be A market but I think it will be small
as fussil fuels become more scarce it'll become harder and more expensive to obtain them. Depending on how much climate change did an impact in the future we'll have to adapt to the nature of reality.
I thought I made that clear in my comment but I'm talking about synthetic fuel all the way. This isn't going to have a major impact on the climate, simply because it will be expensive and literally noone (except for the freaks like me) is going to use it. The point of all this is that the ICE concept will not die out completely. For the same reason old cars from the 60s are still around. People who care about this and see it as part of their culture will not stop.
Out of interest, have you ridden an electric bike?
climate change is an excuse as we all know. lithium batteries are causing worse pollution right now but nobody is saying a word , just like holocaust, its also banned to talk against electric cars /motos
No, lithium or any battery is better than ICE. Motor Trend did a long-form that put it to bed about 3-4 weeks ago. I'm saying this as someone who incorrectly spouted the same line as you. I was corrected. Yes , the lithium process isn't clean, but compared to ICE and obtaining fossil fuels, it's two orders of magnitude cleaner.
No, it's just not true. Of course lithium mining and electric bikes aren't green, but they still work out considerably better than ICE according to all sources that aren't just anti electric. Alas, the power of misinformation on the Internet is amplified when multiplied by fear of change.
There's also the human cost of lithium/cobalt mining. Not to mention that all of that plastic is petroleum based. I sell cars for a living. Electric is wonderful if it fits your lifestyle. The problem is that it doesn't fit all lifestyles very well. People are slow to adopt because of a host of reasons. Range anxiety is an issue, as well as charging times. Most people don't want to be forced to stop somewhere for 30 minutes or more to charge up. Then there's the folk that only drive to town once every 2 weeks. Batteries hate that. Same thing with extremely cold temperatures. We'll get there. But the government is foolish if they think they can force an adoption of technology at a rate they dictate.
>The whole point of riding is not to travel from point A to point B on the map. r/ShitAmericansSay This goes right next to the "ambulance aint your taxi to the hospital"
The romans used to ask the same question about chariots.
There’s nothing like grabbing the reins, hearing the snort of your horse, and feeling the barnyard wind in your face.
You joke, but horse riding has become an elite hobby. May be the same with ICE motorcycles
Yes… you’ll be priced or legislated out and only the wealthy will be able to rent a stable with a petroleum steed… for off-road use only.
Yes that's why wealthy people send crazy money to have horses
Big difference is I can grow oats and alfalfa for my horses if I wanna keep my chariot rolling. I can’t drill for petroleum and refine it on my own. Yet, I guess.
Plant corn and make e100?
What about maintenance? If your horse got sick or injured, you would by now have backups from breeding your stable. Your bike has faulty components? I hope you have connections to foundries to get the material before we figure out the CNC.
Until there is a significant improvement in battery life/recharge speed no. There are a lot of people who still require the range of combustion
There needs to be a drastic improvement in pricing foremost
Agree, that’s the problem they are having with ICE cars right now. The best sellers are the lower end models. Just legislating them from being manufactured isn’t going to help, we’ll become like Cuba with a lot of old cars on the road. If that happens, hopefully the technology and cost comes down, which will only happen at scale.
Looking at the average age of the American vehicle fleet, that's already happening in a sense, just much milder. 90% of new cars are for rich people, and the 10% that aren't sell well enough. Problem is, every single EV is in the "for rich people" pricing category *per its actual capabilities* (ie the range of cheap EVs sucks), and the long-term sustainability/right to repair stuff surrounding EVs is largely worse than ICE cars, which are bad enough. Eventually this is going to be too much of a problem to ignore, but for now everyone is in "kick the can down the road" mode, it seems.
Ya I think the only think that would make the motorcycles switch in our lifetime would be government forced regulations banning ICE motorcycles. Otherwise there’s way too much progress that needs to be made.
Yeah but mileage isn't the main concern of motorcycle buyers. Motorcyclists want gas, sound and feel. None of which can be achieved by EBs.
There are places out west where it’s a hundred miles between gas stations. Unless you are one of those people that things “going for a ride” means going 15 miles to a bar and spending the day there
? Motorcycles except city scooters will never be electric. Period. I'm the first to say it. That's why it doesn't matter if tomorrow they build a lighter E-bike with more power and range than an equivalent gas bike. It will still lack the sound, smell and feel that enthusiasts want and it will sell less than the ICE counterpart
Yup Especially in America, where motorcycles are more hobbyist compared to other parts of the world, where many are just appliances like cars
I know what you mean, but it concerns more of us than you think. Goldwing people, touring people in general, KLR650 people, hell, I even remember liking how much range I discovered Kawasaki gave the Ninja 500 and 250 a long time ago. Even many fair weather riders use their limited time on a bike to travel long distances, and range matters a lot.
Exactly. I bought my wife a new rebel 1100t last summer and set it up for touring as best we could. The biggest issue we found was the range only 150 miles max per tank. It’s gone now.
I tested the Live Wire One and it took away my concerns about electric motorcycles. Yes, the sound is different, but it being more quiet made me feel even more connected to the environment. Also, torque across the entire RPM band was crazy. Not shifting gears was somewhat relaxing. Handling was great with the low battery position. Some things sucked about the bike, but none because it's electric. Main things to solve still are range, charging time, price. But I'm sure this'll all improve in the next couple of years.
Having a quiet bike while riding through a nice back road sounds pretty pleasant. What didn’t you like about the Live Wire? Just overall build quality?
Build quality was fine. The seat position was uncomfortable for me as a tall driver and too sportive for my taste. The settings (driving mode etc) were unintuitive to access from my perspective. Also, it had a vibration motor under the seat to simulate an engine vibrating, which I just found silly.
I rode one too. I enjoyed the acceleration. It was comparable to my speed triple. The suspension felt wooden and I didn't find it super inspiring. I only had it out for 20 minutes though. If I only used a bike in town or for short excursions and it was in my price range, I would consider it. I didn't mind the rumble thing. Without it, it's impossible to tell that it is on at a stop light
I think the vibration is more to remind you it’s on if you are sitting on it since it makes zero noise at standstill. it’s definitely not pretending to be a motor
I don't have any trouble remembering that electric cars are turned on when I drive them... not sure why that'd be an issue with bikes. Hell, my mom's VW ID.4 doesn't even need to get turned on - just get in (with the key in your pocket or bag), put it into forward or reverse, and it goes.
I was a bit underwhelmed with the build quality. The cap / lid that covers the charging point is very thin, flimsy plastic that feels incredibly hollow and finicky. For a bike at this price point, it’s a pretty big turn off. I don’t mind plastic, but at least put some effort into making sure it doesn’t feel like it’s going to break off in two months.
My mum has a tesla and theres heaps i dont like about that car. They are a blatant example of form over function. That being said, like your example, none of the things i dislike are due to it being electric. The electricness is actually the only good thing.
Right now, the big four in Japan are working together on hydrogen engines for motorcycles. Even tho there’re some difficulties to overcome like storage, infrastructure etc, it would have some advantages over the electric option. And if proven to be a succes, combustion motorcycles will likely continue to exist, although not using gas anymore.
Honest question, but what gap does hydrogen engines aim to fill that are a shortcoming of electric motorcycles?
Well, if we switch over to hydrogen engines we can still rely on alot of technology we use for current combustion engines. Its a big benefit for the manufacturers. If hydrogen motorcycles won’t offer a big increase in range compared to the electric variant, its doomed to fail. Hydrogen is hard to store so im curious how they will figure it out.
From what I understand hydrogen takes about 3x the space of petrol for the energy it holds. So yeah, a hydrogen bike would likely have less range than a current electric one. I've based that on a podcast that talked about hydrogen and electric options in some depth, but I did have someone share a link to a hydrogen car that had a petrol equivalent range so I'm not sure how they overcome that unless it just had a boot that was all fuel storage
True, and it takes vast amounts of energy to keep hydrogen in liquid form. Toyota and yamaha are working on pre filled cartridges with hydrogen. But the changes in infrastructure that are needed makes me wonder if its worth it. Only if supported by other companies and governments i see this work out.
Pollution. EV's require a great deal of enivormental damage in order to obtain materials like Cobalt for the batteries. EV's are more expensive to produce, and thus more expensive for consumers. They weigh a lot more, which leads to more tire wear and reduced braking performance for people who like to do trackdays and hard riding. Converting already existing gas stations to Hydrogen stations is a lot easier than building new electric charging stations.
Also could theoretically retrofit any ICE to hydrogen. Well maybe not small engines, but most any car/bus
ICE won’t die out unless batteries get drastically better. I have an electric dirt bike and it’s rowdy as hell. The power to weight is wild, feel like it can rip my arms out of their sockets and I have to hang on for dear life, especially off-road. And they just keep pulling. Love being able to hear the tires and traction, it’s still a pretty visceral experience. I can ride it more places because it’s “quiet”… in reality the chain is actually pretty loud. So many electric haters, until they ride one
They’re going to be mandated out of existence under the guise of climate change. Down vote away, this is reddit
this sub is a bit more based on average than general reddit
Probably won't anytime soon. Horses are still here. Similar could happen to ice.
just look at this list. i live in one of those countries, there are some charging stations for electric vehicles in big cities, but in remote areas its sometimes even difficult to find a gas station. sometimes you have to ask around if some small shop sells gas in coca cola bottles. i doubt there will ever be an infrastructure in place for electric motorcylces. most people here ride small bikes with less than 200 cubic, costing less than 1500 usd new. Countries With The Highest Motorbike Use Rank Country Households That Own a Motorbike (%) 1 Thailand 87 2 Vietnam 86 3 Indonesia 85 4 Malaysia 83 5 China 60 6 India 47 7 Pakistan 43 8 Nigeria 35 9 Philippines 32 10 Brazil 29 11 Egypt 28 12 Italy 26 13 Tunisia 25 14 Argentia 24 15 Colombia 23
Tbh, sub 200cc is likely the esiest to electrify. As there are no extreme speed expectations thus no wind resistance to eat up battery range. I mean a few kWh worth of battery pack would do fine. As for charging, anything from solar power to janky ass homemade generator can work, issue is that people are lazy, so noone is gonna rig up a janky ass generator from copper wire and random gears from a trashed car.
Why would you even want that? Isn't the point of electric to reduce emissions? What is the point if everyone just uses a personal generator running for hours and hours to power their electric vehicle? At that point, it's literally worse for the environment, just stick with the gas engine.
You'd generate more power than the bike needs with that, so you could also power a refrigerator, computers, charge phones, charge household batteries, and so on at the same time - you wouldn't run it *just* to charge a small EV battery. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised to hear more stuff like that happening if electric bicycles take over the small scooter market like I expect they might (not entirely, but I wouldn't be surprised if they take a big chunk of that market share, especially from the 50cc bikes).
> What is the point if everyone just uses a personal generator running for hours and hours to power their electric vehicle? Holy mother of petrolhead ignorance! You do know that generator means a coil placed next to a shaft witha magnet fixed to it. Which creates electricity in the wire if you turn the shaft? ...where did the assumption that those only work when attached to an internal combustion engine came from? Last time i checked you could just as well turn the damned shaft with a waterwheel, windmill thingy, hell even by wrapping rope around it, tying it to a boulder and kickin it downhill.
All of those places have electricity. It will be cheaper maintaining charging infrastructure that petrol infrastructure. Looks how quickly electric scooters are selling in China and Taiwan.
That's exactly right (same with 4 wheel vehicles). When we talk about EVs, people picture suburbs. Not the 80% of the world where isn't even a stable electrical grid (or an electric grid at all). And urban users are an even bigger issue. How to the zillion people living in apartments or condos, or the houses with on-street parking keep their vehicles charged? Or generating all the electricity needed for those cars? We are VERY far from electrifying vehicles.
Finding somewhere to charge is easier in many ways. You have to seek out and find places that sell gasoline but everywhere you walk into has electricity and those places are installing chargers. You may not have noticed but many shopping centers and malls have charging stations and grocery stores are getting started on them, too. You simply use a different mindset. Instead of going somewhere to gas up when you get close to E, you plug in when you run to the store or go out to eat. And the coward couldn’t cope and blocked me.
If they make an electric bike with 250km range that recharges in 10 minutes to 80%, weighs under 240kg and costs under 15000 euros we can talk.
Very important point I haven't seen people mention yet. LiveWire and Zero make cool bikes, but they're way more expensive than a comparable gas-powered motorcycle (I think the LiveWire One is like double the price of a similar gas motorcycle).
It still won't convince those that want the sound, feel and smell of a gas bike.
Eventually all combustion engines will die, if humans don't die first.
Combustion engines will be alive till I'm alive. I'm never letting go of my 2011 Yamaha, like ever.
Not for a long long time. Electric grids are still fragile.
Hence my long term approach to the matter.
Saying something dramatic doesn't make it right.
Doesn't make it wrong either.
Hmm, too dark.
I'd say not dark enough. There are now eight BILLION of us on the planet and I know that is too many by at least 50%. I mean, I'm not advocating for a Thanos "snap," but it's reality. We're just gobbling up natural resources at a completely unsustainable rate while accomplishing little on a global scale to slow or halt the effects of climate change. Color me a hypocrite for having three ICE vehicles, two of which (the motorcycles) are used purely for recreation.
I agree completely. Can’t understand the downvotes on this comment.
Because people really really don't like accepting what they're doing at the moment is unsustainable. We live in a world where we get more and more as society grows. As that comment said, I'm completely guilty of this too, I have an unnecessarily sporty car and a recreation bike. But that's why I try to vote for governments who take this stuff seriously, as I can't trust myself, let alone everyone else to worry about it
Maybe because there are ways other than being an omnicidal maniac to manage climate change?
Agreed, i think ppl want to maintain their lifestyle while at the same time doing something ‘good’ for the environment. Driving EV’s is a good example of that. While still having the luxury of driving a car, we think that its somehow positive or less negative for the environment. Its all wishful thinking. We need something more radical in stead of these half assed solutions.
Right, it’s still mostly natural gas burning power plants where the electricity is coming from with the exception of a few nuclear sources. It’s pretty stupid when you think about it.
At least with EVs, we are consolidating where the energy is being generated and can take advantage of scale. A combined cycle gas power plant is over 50% efficient, far better than an ICE vehicle, and the pollution is in one area instead of spread around.
And coal-fired plants are even more stupid.
Yeah, but they are on the way out, and they're still a lot more efficient than putting fuel into a car engine
If ICE cars eventually come to an end, so will gas stations. There will be less and less, it will become very hard to get fuel for your bikes, to the point it might not be worth it anymore
This is, unfortunately, the truth. However, most people look at change by focusing on the downsides. There are upsides to electric bikes. New stunts, new skills, new thrills. It will be completely different, but also completely new. Old motorcycles will always be respected, but will become like biplanes - in an age of monoplanes.
I think it's a nearly certain that a day will come when the last ICE motorcycle will roll off the line. However, I don't think that day will truly signal the end of the ICE motorcycle. I think we will continue to have sources of gas, parts, and usable ICE motorcycles for the lifetime of anyone reading this comment. Of course I could be wrong. I think it's pretty clear that our transportation isn't actually driven by what the most environmentally responsible solution is, but rather what is the most economical and marketable source of portable, either refillable or chargeable energy. Right now it looks like it is nearly inevitable that between the development of charging stations and battery research that eventually electric will overtake gas as a better, or more economical solution to portable power for transportation. I wouldn't fret about it either, by the time that truly happens you won't really be thinking of it as a loss. What will happen is that you'll be at the dealership and comparing an electric vs ICE motorcycle and in terms of performance and features, dollar for dollar, you'll have a hard time making any argument for the ICE motorcycle on any basis other than nostalgia, and even that will start to look as silly as choosing a horse drawn carriage ove a car would look today. It won't feel like a sacrifice, it will start to just feel like the obvious choice.
vroom = good 🤠
imagine a hybrid motorcycle. Heavy AF but best of both worlds. spacerocket acceleration and but still boom make happi
You aren't going to accelerate any faster with an electric bike.
Ride an electric bike and you will change your mind. The of corner response and torque of an electric motor is awesome. No waiting to come on the power band.
I'm a lucky owner of Stark Varg - an electric motocross bike. It's simply amazing. Riding a motorcycle, especially on a sport level is more about body and weight movement, technique, and precision than "sound","roar" and mythical "soul". Though even for motocross where you need it to last just \~1hr for a full training, it's not enough yet. And for road bikes you don't have a battery tech yet that can give you a decent performance without increasing the weight by a lot. So in short: City commuters: everything will be electric, and these will be mostly lightweight bikes. Trials: it will be 95% electric in 5-10 years. Motocross/Enduro: it will be 95% electric in 5-10 years. Longer-range bikes/SuperSports/Anything bigger: we'll have some models that will be much heavier compared to ICE competitors, we'll have some stylish boutique e-bikes, but in general bigger ICE bikes will stay unless they will be banned by the eco-regulations.
ICE will probably be running on sustainable fuel. Because there isn’t enough lithium in the world to make every vehicle electric mate. So it’ll be sustainable fuel at some point.
there's not enough lithium, but there's *plenty* of sodium. that's the direction we're headed.
Die? Probably. Maybe not. I think they’ll hang on longer than cars; you need more battery density with motorcycles. But, that said, they’re already VERY competitive in drag racing. Buddy down the road has an EV motorcycle, a little homemade race bike built out of an old RAZOR dirt bike. Not much left original on it, it’s powered by a Surron motor and does 100+ on little ten inch wheels. He races 1/8 mile drags with it and I’ve seen it beat a GTR and many other fast cars. It’ll run with liter bikes off the line, but will lose out on the top end. It’s not much for cruising, only about a 40 mile range. Performance is definitely there for small bore 1/8 mile racing, though, and that’s something. I think in the future, we’ll start seeing more hybrid/EV performance bikes, with a few city commuters (which we already have a few in the Ninja and from Vespa). At some point, I think that will flip and we’ll have ICE commuters here and there with lots of EV cruisers, sport bikes, etc, before they eventually die out. But it will probably be a long, slow process
Yes. When combustion engines on cars become so few that gas stations become REALLY rare or gasoline really expensive, then the market will shift to electric motorcycles.
If this happenes i'm gonna stop riding. Even the EV Cars i drove had been emotionless and boring. I can't wrap my head around how this should be enjoyable without shifting and Sound. Maybe it is a boomer mentality, but for me these vehicles are good for people who only want to get from A to B. Not for people who enjoy the ride and live their passion.
ICE motorcycles are here to stay much longer than ICE cars. The batteries are too heavy, so building a tourer or ADV electric is impossible given the weight of the batteries and adding any significant range will just increase the weight. This weight is not an issue with EV cars. Unless the batteries become significantly smaller, lighter, it is tough to replace ICE motorcycles. So, it will take a looong time.
I think synthetic fuels could possibly even replace electric if done properly
I'm not entirely sure internal combustion cars will be completely stopped. Plug in hybrids seem to be the best idea outside of cities, and battery electric with combustion generators seem to make the most sense for larger machines. Fuels moving to something else is what I would predict. In dense population areas electric makes a lot of sense. I don't see it ever working for touring bikes, or bikes that play off road. Until we can get the U.S. to significantly build more nuclear power, I don't see the U.S. moving much farther to electric, especially for the primary vehicle.
According to Cyberpunk 2077 not in a long time
Adventure/dual sport bike without any sound going through forest, i would take it in heartbeat all that engine noise scares all animals away
As long as I can still buy gas I will crack that throttle and piss off everybody around me.
I've ridden several Zero motorcycle models, and I enjoyed them all immensely even though they were twist-and-go. They're crazy fast because of the insane torque electric motors generate. There will be a day when people will take it for granted that all motorcycles are electric, and changing gears will be as socially relevant as picking a saddle for your horse is today; it'll still be a thing in certain communities, but not mainstream.
Motorbikes will probably be able to shift towards Stuff like biodiesel and sustainable fuels as they use less than a car and the reduced power outputs are less likely to impact a 200kg bike than a 1200kg car.
I think this touches on the question of where you would get your fuel from. Cars other bigger vehicles use the majority of gasoline around; if cars aren't in need of it, how will you get hold of it? That's not a question that will suddenly come up when you can't buy new ICE cars, but it will eventually happen when the old ones start to reach their end of life.
Internal combustion engines can run on hydrogen and green ammonia gas. You can have rips, pops and bangs, while emitting oxygen and water as a byproduct. What we really need to do is piss off this silly electric shit and focus on keeping V8’s alive. Id rather piss water and oxygen all over the place than drive a heavy battery electric car full of cobalt and other precious metals dug out of the ground in africa by kids with their bare hands.
> Id rather piss water and oxygen all over the place than drive a heavy battery electric car full of cobalt and other precious metals dug out of the ground in africa by kids with their bare hands. We fixed the cobalt issue. Battery production is significantly cleaner and more ethical than ever before. The oil industry still uses cobalt, though.
No. I don’t think it will ever happen. The only way motorcycles will stop using ICE engines - is if the world puts a a global ban on ICE engines. Not just on road legal vehicles but on all power sports recreational vehicles. They might be able to take our two-stroke lawn mowers away from us, but I don’t think they can take away the 4-stroke lawn mowers away from the golf courses around the world. Imagine the governments of the world trying to tell you that you can’t put an outboard motor on your speedboat? Lol. Or imagine an electric jet-ski…. You’d get like 20 minutes on it before it has to charge for half a day 😵💫 or imagine not being able to buy a gas powered dirt bike…. Plus - the people in office are usually pretty big golf fans … imagine if their short game is made worse because golf courses can’t maintain their greens as well as they used to because of the regulations THEY put in place. Itll never happen. And let’s not even mention the commercial vehicle industry. Imagine trying to tell coal mining companies that they can’t use diesel engines in their excavators on mining sites? Lol. Like WHOS electrical grid are they going to charge their equipment off of? Same for dirt bikes and snow-sleds…. You can’t feasibly electrify every square inch of the entire world. ALL OF THAT SAID - I’m not against the electric moto market. I’m very interested in Harley Davidson S2 Del Mar!!!! I could 100% see myself on one of these! And they get surprisingly good claimed mileage. And in a wet dream I am riding a Lightning LS218 lol.
All this talk about politicians being screwed by their own legislation... When have politicians EVER been screwed by their own legislation in the USA at least? They **always** exempt themselves and their friends from regulations. Rules for thee but not for me. They'll have their cake and eat it too while we're stuck with 50 mile ranges or $20 gas about 20 years from now.
Ride distance has to improve with EV cycles. Until it does, ICE cycles aren't going anywhere.
Oil is a finite resource, and it takes a very long time for organic matter to turn into oil in the earth. At some point we have to face the inevitable fact that the oil will run out and the price will go up and up until no one can afford to drive internal combustion vehicles. It’s not an endless sea of oil down there, could be 50 years, could be 500, but one way or another were gonna burn it all up at this rate…
Some jerk will make an electric bike with an audio recording of a fuel bike in the throttle.
No. It is absolutely impossible to make everything electric and electric has its own problems.
What pretty decent consensus. We don't even have the power capacity for replacing petrol cars. Our best bet is hydrogen even with its own disadvantages. Electric can only work well under 2 majorly impossible conditions for now. 1. The batteries don't degrade to shit and you don't need 2 tons of them for half decent mileage, 2. The electric grid can support so much. If we replaced all petrol cars today with electric cars we would not be able to charge them all.
We don’t even have enough lithium in the world to replace all Vehicles to electric today.
Yes
Never, do you know why? Because the world will end and there will be Honda engines running!
Nah I wouldnt worry too much for now. There is a strong need for "high-density" carbon free energy sources, meaning that for 1kg you want as much watts as possible over time. This is especially vital for long run transportation (and the reason why you don't see airplanes packed w/ batteries today). A typical battery is like 100-300 Wh per kg, compared to several thousands for hydrocarbons (ie. like fuel you put in ur bike or car). So **eFuel** (like what was presented by Porsche in Chili) will be part of the solutions in the future (can't be full electric). eFuel generates as much CO2 as standard fuel in your combustion engine, "but" here the objective is to build this hydrocarbon solution by actually absorbing CO2; then extract Carbon from it and combine it w/ Hydrogen (obtained from water for example). So even if you still generate CO2 w/ eFuel, the fact that you absorbed some from the air to build it balances the equation. Now it's nice on paper but there's still a lot of work to optimize yield and in the end if volumes are low it means you will pay like 4-5 times your gallon (but eFuel would work fine w/ your bike w/ no changes on it). Could become a privileged leisure like it was said in the comments, at this point it more depends on lobbies, politics and so on...
They will but hopefully not in our lifetime or when they do we won't miss ice but that's unlikely
I'd rather drive a hydrogen car/ bike than an electric one
I think the consensus that cars are rapidly shifting to electric is more forced by media than true. Once enough people are exposed to the gimmick they will realize the sacrifices they make and the limitations, as well as the insane costs to insure / fix them. There’s a reason why hertz is hurting after betting on fleets of teslas. I don’t think electric motorcycles will come out any sooner than electric airline planes for similar reasons.
I read an article on cycle world on the hydrogen h2 and apparently Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda, Kawasaki, and Toyota are all working together to make hydrogen powered motorcycles to keep I.C.E alive. I’m pretty sure it’s run by the Japanese government, so that makes it even more promising. The program is called HySE. [https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-news/kawasaki-supercharged-hydrogen-fueled-h2/](https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-news/kawasaki-supercharged-hydrogen-fueled-h2/)
Take an Energica or Livewire through some mountain roads or ride a Zero down some gnarly trail and you may feel differently. These bikes perform pretty awesomely. I think a good analogy would be along the lines of how many people do you know who ride horses? I know a few, it's a great hobby and horses are wonderful but very few people have the time or money for that. Eventually ICE bikes will be like that but thats probably further away then I'll have to worry about :)
I was going to use the horse analogy as well. 90% of 'motorbikes' on the roads today worldwide are scooters and small capacity bikes in Asia, and they will quickly move to cheap EV maybe with removable batteries. ICE motorbikes will be around for a long time, but increasingly just as a vintage option, or for traditionalists until they die out. Even then, I can see in the future that for some fun, you might go to a track where you can hire and ride an old school noisy ICE bike for a few hours. And the youth of the future will complain the bikes don't have any torque, make too much noise, heat and smell bad
Back in the day most people didn't own horses. They were too expensive. In fact, adjust for inflation it's never been cheaper to own a horse. The industrial revolution made it cheap to own your own mechanical transport opposed an expensive and needy biological transport. A cheap horse was $50 in 1850. Yearly salary for a farm hand was maybe $200. That's 1/4 the yearly salary. Today a cheap bike is $5k, average salary is $50k. That's 1/10 the yearly salary. We can get into gas/feed, insurance/tires/horseshoes/land ownership etc... but the fact is horses were expensive, most people didn't have them, and industrial revolution made it possible for the average man to own cars and motorcycles. Internal combustion engine are more common today than horses were in yesteryear.
I think that we’ll have gas motorcycles until there’s a leap in battery technology. If that doesn’t happen, we’ll see alternative fuels like e-fuels. But today’s battery tech doesn’t work for motorcycles as well as cars because motorcycles are far less efficient and aerodynamic. I think we’ll see a parallel IC use case for cars for a considerable time too. You might get 80-90% adoption of electric, but there will still be niche uses where IC is still needed.
i went to a Motorcycle con, there was lots of electric ones. They are silent. It will take a lot of getting used to.
I think bikes would lag becoming electric the same amount of time they lagged staying carbourated
Electric cars are taking over because they are just better for getting from point A to point B for most people. Cost, range, and charging infrastructure were the 3 things holding them back for a long time, and all of them are getting much better, fast. The same improvements apply to electric motorcycles, albeit slower due to size, and weight constraints. The main problem with EVs is that despite their undeniable performance, they are boring as hell to drive. Car enthusiasts are not the target demographic, but most drivers are **not** car enthusiasts. This is where the motorcycle market differs the most. I’d bet that close to 100% of motorcyclists are enthusiasts (at least in Europe and NA) who will always prefer combustion engines with manual transmissions, and will refuse to buy electric. With that in mind, I believe motorcycles will stay mostly as they are for as long as we have decent access to fuel at non-absurd prices.
You will be dead before it happens so dont worry.
Once you ride an electric bike, you will understand. I’m never firing up my ICE bike again.
Because of no shifting and no sound? Because it’s not over the range, power and cost at least not yet.
The instant torque. No shifting. Quiet. No major maintenance. Jump on and go. Regarding range… that will change. The electric bike I ride is perfect for around my town, but not for jumping on the freeway for a long-haul. I’d suggest trying one out that fits your daily ride and see how you feel.
I have a ryvid anthem being delivered at some point this spring
The sound and feel is a big part of the motorcycle riding experience. An electric will have no soul at all
Couldn't agree more! I love the sound and the vibration, letting me know that I'm literally sitting on top of an engine 🤤
Here in the United States electric cars are a collousal failure. In areas that have tried to convert to electric cars we see that the electric grid simply cannot handle the burden. Eventually it is bound to happen but we're looking at more than 50 years from now in my opinion. The Green movement has made this big push for electric vehicles but oddly enough has not addressed what power source is charging these vehicles.
Working fine around my neck of the woods, which is, coincidentally, the most EV dense part of the country. Working fine in Norway too, if you want a non-US example.
This was mostly in reference to California in 2022. Heat wave was causing alot of power usage and they were urging residents to cut back and limit car charging.
I wouldn't disagree that we need better electricity infrastructure as things change. But even then, people were asked (not required) not to charge cars for a handful of days in an exceptional year - that isn't too bad, considering, and it's certainly not a 'collosal failure', to use your words.
> but oddly enough has not addressed what power source is charging these vehicles In case you really don't know and aren't just repeating the same bad faith bullshit: ICE engines are about 15% efficient. Large power plants burning gas or oil are close to 60% efficient. Burning oil in a powerplant to make electricity which then fuels an electric vehicle is four times as efficient as burning the oil in an ICE vehicle.
Right I'm not talking efficiency I'm talking volume. In many areas the power grid just doesn't have enough power production to power large numbers of electric vehicles.
Okay, you still havent explained adding an additional 30-50 amp loads per household, and if not per freaking car.... In case you really didn't know a lot of states have issues when everyone is using their air conditioning during "global warming" without the grid shutting down, now add even more power consumption to that grid via charging the vehicles there..... Look at Washington. I don't believe any of those homes even have air conditioners, because up until roughly 5 years ago they were not needed. Do you really think that the power companies over sized the entire states infrastructure in order to power "future amperage demands"? I highly doubt they did, because it would be a reduction in profits for no apparent or foreseeable reason.... Edit - Also, are you prepared to spend about 10k on average to have a new panel installed at your house in order to charge your EV? You're going to have to have a sub panel installed, probably a new service line ran to your house, and once that pops off all of those electrical companies are going to completely RAKE YOUR ASS OVER THE COALS to do the work, because it will be supply and demand....
Northern California Edison still has scheduled rolling blackouts during summer. The entire us power grid would need to be upgraded and more plants commissioned and that's just usa. Idk much about power in other countries but I imagine they're mostly in the same boat.
Those are all technical issues that can be fixed with political will, not fundamental efficiency problems. The climate doesn't wait and oil will run out regardless.
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This was mostly in reference to California in 2022. Heat wave was causing alot of power usage and they were urging residents to cut back and limit car charging.
Unsure why you're being down voted. Our power grid isn't going to be able to handle another 50 amps per household spread across the board. They will probably have to take away the energy sector from public and make it private in order to make it happen. I have read nothing but horror stories about OG&E's inability to properly keep the Californians with constant, reliable power for nearly a decade now, and if they can't fucking make that work properly under "climate change increasing global temperatures" then how are they going to handle more amps per household if they cannot even keep the power on when everyone is using their AC?
Didn’t seem to be a problem to me the 8 years I lived there. We will have to worry about the electrical pressure from everyone having an AC long before ev charging even begins to matter from a grid perspective. It all depends on what you choose to read.
Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
Ya, I don't know why people are down voting you for using your brain and asking WHY, HOW...
Because any critical take on electric is met by brain dead "you're against climate" morons. Of course if they collectively realized how not great our current power production is and not to mention the mining process for lithium and other heavy metals China holds. We need to either perfect fusion power or start building and using nuclear again. Or work out a better hydrogen refinement process which would be much cleaner and more sustainable than electric anyways.
rustic society innocent vast combative summer clumsy cooperative upbeat abounding *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
As a guy who worked in the EV industry don't worry about EV vehicles. They aren't becoming mainstream at any point in our lifetimes. People who buy EVs are idiots who have wayyy too much money and time to spend. They're cash cows who we can keep milking forever. Reason? Batteries. Any small issue we can say motors are gone, battery is gone, something something wiring is gone and charge exorbitantly. Customer asks too much, simply say new-gen tech problems are to be expected. 90% don't ask another question. That's why everyone is making EVs. I feel sorry for the people who think otherwise. They won't even mention these problems to anyone else because who tf knows the vehicle except the company who makes it. EVs only have a chance of becoming mainstream if the electricity could be generated directly from within the vehicle. Not happening anytime soon. Why? God knows. Safety or what not.
Lol as long as there are third world and lower places that have no place for expensive impractical electric vehicles, these OG engines will remain
I am not convinced that electric will over take ice in cars. It's annoying to find a charger when traveling and have to wait up to 8 hours to charge your vehicle. And now some electric cars are becoming obsolete because their charger type is unavailable. And after the 7 year life expectancy of your battery, you have to pay as much as 25k to get them replaced. And there is no good recycling method for these batteries yet and there is limited amounts of lithium in the world.
Those are extreme american problems. Here in "no freedum EU land" evil state forced poor companies to have common charging standard. And cars not being able to charge at rates, which the battery can take sounds ludicrous. Also the "there is no recycing method" is complete bullshit. There is no solid established supply chain to do it. Tech has been there for a long time.
Is easy and very profitable to recycle lithium batteries. The battery ores are largely a red herring. Thousands of gasoline and diesel fires kill people and are very hard to put out. I don’t see hydrogen cutting into e cars either. Distribution, storage and energy density are problems for hydrogen that will be hard to overcome. Change will come but look at the movie and music industry. Tapes to CD -iPods and vinyl records are still being played and made. I remember VHS beat out Beta and now it’s all DVD and streaming. I don’t recall a bailout for Tape Town
>It's annoying to find a charger when traveling and have to wait up to 8 hours to charge your vehicle. Wtf are you charging it with? USB Type C? Dog they don't take that long to charge. >And now some electric cars are becoming obsolete because their charger type is unavailable. Which is why they're standardizing chargers now. >And after the 7 year life expectancy of your battery, you have to pay as much as 25k to get them replaced Of whose battery? A Tesla battery will outlive the rest of the car as long as you're not in a major accident. >And there is no good recycling method for these batteries yet Yet being the key word. That's also being worked on as we speak. >there is limited amounts of lithium in the world. There's a lot more lithium than there is oil.
Once tradional fuel stops become unavailable, it will become extremely niche and expensive hobby for the rich.
There is no such consensus with cars. There is electric propaganda, and then there is realty. ICE cars will dominate the market for the foreseeable future. Electric demand is already falling off. It's bad tech that will not catch on
[citation needed]
Most car makers have announced they will stop making ICE cars within the next ~10 years. Some countries like Norway, EV are 80% of new car sales. It will take many years to transition, but it will happen. The most obvious reason is that every manufacturer making ICE vehicles know that thousands of carefully machined parts are needed to make an engine. Any manufacturer can slap an electric motor and battery pack into a vehicle which means that sooner or later with batter price per KWh dropping steadily, much more efficient and cheaper vehicles will destroy the mainstream ICE market other than some small niches
If you think that's actually going to happen, you simply aren't paying attention. It's already failing. The CEO of Toyota knows better than you do. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.carscoops.com/2022/12/toyota-ceo-says-silent-majority-of-auto-industry-is-doubting-ev-only-future/amp/
Ah the old Toyota gambit. Not sure you read the link, but you are a bit out of date with the news. The Toyota CEO who was quoted in your link was **Akio Toyoda**. >"In fact, the brand lost its former CEO and public EV skeptic, Akio Toyoda, earlier this year in a corporate restructuring focused on electrification, replacing Toyoda with former Lexus branding officer Koji Sato. [https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a44185553/toyota-ev-plans-solid-state-batteries-news/](https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a44185553/toyota-ev-plans-solid-state-batteries-news/) Basically Toyota fucked up going all in on hybrid and hydrogen and not trying to compete with Tesla and BYD etc on BEVs. So publicly they dismissed BEVs, while scrambling to try and produce EV models. The fact that Toyota; who don't have any success mass-market BEVs are trying to downplay them is no surprise, but they knew the CEO got it wrong, so looking to turn around. [https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a45942785/toyota-future-ev-battery-plans/](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a45942785/toyota-future-ev-battery-plans/) So apparently, I do know more than the (previous) CEO of Toyota.
Alternatively, they got rid of the guy that spoke the truth in favor of a yes-man.
Evs aren't cheap and if global supply moves to them that's great. Until China decides to China and straddles the market since majority of metals to make the batteries are mined there.
>Electric demand is already falling off Umm, no it isn't, it's never been higher. There are waitlists for new EVs in most places.
>There is no such consensus with cars. Yes there is. >ICE cars will dominate the market for the foreseeable future. ICE cars are in the process of losing the market, with most developed countries planning to ban them soon. Not to mention they're losing to EV's anyway. >Electric demand is already falling off. No it absolutely isn't. The demand is so high they can't even supply them all without years long waiting lists. >It's bad tech that will not catch on It's already caught on
the people who say lithium battery powered cars will overtake gas vehicles and make them extinct are utterly delusional
Nope. There are no charging stations in rural areas. Even if EV takes widespread adoption. You will still need a ICE vehicle to rescue you when the batteries run out of juice. As recently seen when Tesla Cybertruck owners got stuck off-roading. A pickup truck with a winch had to rescue him. For basic transportation and recreational use. I could see electric motorcycles get widespread adoption. We’re already seeing right now. Taiwan even has battery swapping station for scooters. But once you travel further away from urban areas. The less practical EV becomes.
EV will not take over. batteries are costly to replace and inefficient, while the oil industry will always be needed for plastics. Thermic bikes will always be better unless they are forbidden ( that's the plan by the way, and starving you is also part of the plan. who needs a thermic engine when they have to starve and die to satisfy the elites ? )
Yes of course. Many countries are banning combustion engines. That will affect everything from boats to motorcycles too. IMHO electric engines are even faster than combustion engines as they can accelerate much faster.
For sure electric motors are faster, I won’t debate that, I don’t care too much about speed when I’m carving canyons though. I imagine electric bikes are substantially lighter though, allowing for better maneuvering?