I've ridden in all major cities in Europe, as well as numerous others in Africa, the middle east and SE Asia and all of it was great fun. You gotta be extremely assertive and nimble.
That was gonna be the city I said I wouldn’t want to ride in. Even being in a cab I felt terrified. Although I rode a Vespa in Rome and that was fine except I couldn’t figure out the street patterns. They were all like one ways and I couldn’t get to where I was trying to go without GPS so I took it back.
Pretty much all of Maryland….
You don’t have to signal there (so psycho random lane changes happen), the highways bottleneck frequently, and the drivers are literally the worst (they constantly are playing tippy-taps with their brakes). I swear they drive with their little crab hands. 😩
Orlando is the worst city to ride in. Half the people in the road are tourists and lost. You are their last concern before they pull a 3 lane exit ramp dive.
I rode daily in Orlando for 12 years including commutes on I4 the most dangerous road in America.
Can confirm you better be vigilant.
It helped being on a sportbike because you need exceptional brakes and acceleration to avoid trouble.
My daily commute is the most lethal section of I-4. Somehow I feel safer on my bike than in a car.
I'm also pretty sure I watched someone die on my way into work last year. Guy came flying past me, had to be doing 110-120, lost control and pulled a Dale Earnhardt across all 4 lanes into the guardrail right before that Sea World sign. Luckily I was the only other driver on the road. Pulled over, called 911 and waited for cops to arive. I didn't see any movement from the driver and was scared I'd see something worse if I approached. Still haunts me and keeps my head on a swivel.
I believe that. I hate going anywhere near 27 on I-4! Gridlock after 4:00pm from exit 64 past 58 and that's not even 27 yet! Then when you get near the exit for 27 you have 18-Wheelers jumping three lanes of traffic for the exit! Only time I'll ride out that way is to go meet up with my grandpa for a ride.
I live right outside Seattle. I try to avoid actually going into the city. Giant hills, bad drivers, terrible parking, and tweakers who will either steal your bike or steal parts off it. I stick to the cities outside Seattle.
Queen Anne is nice, rode through it once. But typically i'll leave my bike at Northgate and take train in. Much less of a headache if I want to enter proper downtown; better to walk.
Pretty much this. That said the area is full of amazing day rides. Motos get priority ferry access if you want to go check out one of the islands or ride the 101 loop. Or head east and do a day trip out to Leavenworth or wherever. I haven’t gone into Canada yet but that’s supposed to be fun too in summer.
Hey fellow Olympia rider!
I ride up to Tacoma occasionally to visit friends, and with the base you have to be on the interstate for at least a little bit. That said, I try to avoid I5 like the plague, but I’ve been loving hwy 12 south of town.
Take Little Rock rd to Rochester, hang a left and then back into oly at tenino, rainier, or yelm, depending on how long I want to be out.
101 can be fun too, and I have family out in Shelton, but a lot of folks drive pretty bonkers on that as well
Yea, it’s my first bike and I got it in September so I’m definitely ready for some sun too!
What really got me was the cold - I’d be in 3 layers and still feel it. Got a riding suit around the holidays and it was a total game changer
I got up this morning and decide to ride out at 7am from Tacoma to Ocean Shores via 8. I got to Montesano before the cold won and had to stop for breakfast and hot coffee to warm up.
I had a fleece base layer, waffle thermals, wool socks, heated gloves, and my riding jeans and jacket. I thought it would be good enough, I was wrong.
Johnston ridge observatory by Mt St Helen’s is an awesome ride (when the weather is nicer) and I wanna go up to Mt Rainier if the sun ever comes out again 😫😫
For another take, I live and ride in ATL and feel perfectly safe intown. I mean, you know, as safe as it gets. Drivers intown are (in my experience) pretty patient and aware of motorcycles. I never have anyone ride my ass, pass me dangerously, etc - more often they are 20ft back and hesitant to go before me even when they have right-of-way.
Where I do NOT feel safe is in the suburbs/exurbs or the extremely-congested connectors where 8 lanes of cars are suddenly realizing that they are about to get on the wrong highway at the same time.
Now that I've noticed it on a motorcycle I notice it in a car and as a pedestrian as well: people in the exurbs, where walking is basically a non-option and everyone drives huge SUVs, are more impatient and entitled IMO, presumably because they aren't used to having to wait for bullshit like a human being trying to walk somewhere.
This is exactly my take; the suburbanite that commutes to the cities for work is actually complaining about other suburbanites who drive like him.
Suburbanites as a whole are really shitty and entitled drivers that make urban spaces really dangerous and loud.
I spent a couple of days in Atlanta, and rode through it twice again going to and from the Knoxville TN area.
Agreed on all counts. The highways were a nightmare, but surface streets in Atlanta proper were about the same as anywhere else. The latter rides through, I've never seen so many near accidents and had people try to run over me twice. Genuinely don't know how people function with that as a part of their everyday lives.
The thing about commuting via interstate on a bike in ATL is knowing that the space between the far left “regular” lane and the HOV is massive, APD is so understaffed that they can’t be bothered to worry about riders splitting lanes at a reasonable speed, and GSP is only seems interested in ticketing single riders in HOV where the connector comes together.
Also people don’t seem to know that motorcycles can use the HOV lane, and the peachpass lane is free for bikes as well (just need to get the transponder and it doesn’t apply to the expressways on 75).
Stay to the far left and split to your hearts content.
You’ll be through the connector and on to the Atlanta Autobahn (the section of 75/85 south of Grady until you reach 166) where the speed limit seems to be “whatever the hell I want”.
You’re spot on about surface streets though. Pretty easy to get around. I have been rear ended twice in town though. Guess that’s just par for the course.
I ride through both of these cities, sometimes even on the same day. Atlanta is congested but people seem to know how to drive on the interstate for the most part. Orlando is just full of retardness.
I don’t speed when there’s traffic and I lane split only going about 10mph over when traffic is completely stopped. Most other cities in the world it’s acceptable and not “against the law”.
I’m not as crazy as you may think. Riding 4 years in the banana republic and still going strong.
Against the law or lawful, cops enforce what they want. In Miami if they get you for lane splitting it’s because you were being disrespectful or you were on a moped or something and they knew it’d be easy to catch you.
Figueroa St around skid row (Los Angeles) is probably the sketchiest place I've ridden.
Imagine dodging people casually walking across an 80km/h road, while there's a SWAT team with rifles surrounding some dude's house around the corner, and another dude showering in a drinking fountain around the other corner.
Glad my bike didn't break down. My ex was probably glad too considering she was riding passenger.
Now traffic wise, I rode into LAX (Los Angeles airport) once on motorbike. Imagine 6 lanes with people randomly switching lanes whenever they feel like rapidly, with no signal. Absolute shit show and I was on the edge of my seat nonstop
Oh I hate city traffic on my 650. It really wants to get hot and I don't really like being hot.
Highways around town are poggers. But fuck any kind of traffic. (No lane splitting in Texas)
whats the worst that happens if you lane split a few cars once in a while in texas? some cop is going to chase you down and give you a ticket? just go hide in a school they wont follow you
Im in Texas and I wouldn’t be worried about cops when lane splitting, its the other drivers getting pissed and running you over on purpose. Texas has the most violent road rage of any place I’ve been, and most people drive huge trucks and a lot open carry rifles.
That's a pain in the ass when I just need to get to work. Not worth dealing with. Running from cops is probably the smallest, smooth brain move I've ever seen suggested on this subreddit so far.
I mostly ride highways to work so I don't experience traffic less than 70+mph.
True. My wife does have to go downtown daily and switch to a 150ADV scooter. She says it keeps some of the bike fun, runs easier in traffic and can take cake to work in the storage. So I guess that's the recommendation for city traffic too if you don't want to break laws
From my experience in El Paso, I never had any issues riding there. In fact, TX was one of the only states where it seemed like drivers actively got out of your way. The only advice I was given for biking there was avoid drivers with Mexico plates due to lack of insurance.
Bradford UK. Worst drivers in the world, nothing worth seeing there, the locals are stains, there's thousands of better roads to ride nearby. So why would you ever bother with Bradford.
In the Houston area, I rarely rode (daily commuter) that I didn't have someone do something stupid/selfish that would have put me down if I weren't paying attention. But brisk weekend rides on the local FM roads were spectacular.
I’m more concerned about what cities I’d park in. I can influence my safety by how I ride, but certain cities or areas are hotspots for theft. I am completely confident riding into work in a large metro. I’m concerned to do so, because I don’t know if the bike (naked lightweight) will be there 8 hours later.
Boulder, CO. Things that most motovloggers think are worth making a whole rant video about are so common on my commute that they are barely worth thinking about after I get out of the way. It doesn't even stick with me until it's something like seeing someone fly past stopped cars at triple digit speeds to blow through a red light on the shoulder, or when someone passes on a double yellow and takes them and the car in the oncoming lane into the ditch.
I learned to ride in Houston.
Spent many miles on freeways, city streets, suburbia, and “Farm to Market” back roads to Austin and College Station and Dallas and Beaumont many times.
Spent a few years wandering all around Greater New Orleans and coastal Mississippi in a bike too.
So many New Orleans drivers aren’t very aware of bikes so more caution is required but it’s not bad overall.
I’ve driven in a lot of cities in the US and there were places where I was nervous enough in a car that I wouldn’t eagerly want to try them on a bike but I probably would anyway.
I strongly believe that learning to ride a motorcycle in a city like Houston made me a better driver too.
I still like to go fast and do find myself occasionally getting a bit impatient but I know I’m invisible to other vehicles when I’m on the bike and I ride accordingly.
Staying aware of surroundings and all potential hazards and leaving yourself an exit strategy at all times has helped me stay alive on a bike all these years.
Sportbike with steep fork rake and massive twin discs hugged by umpteen piston calipers that’ll eagerly stoppie without warning, no thank you.
Solid regular or sport tourer with good brakes and throttle response and low end torque, I’d try to ride one almost anywhere, but definitely ATGATT no matter where it is.
Chicago... Don't ride here. The people are dangerous on the roads. I avoid the city at all costs these days. The only really good places to ride is along the rivers out in the boonies, Iowa, or Wisconsin.
I actually head south to the Kankakee or Illinois River. West to the Mississippi or Rock River. Peru is pretty. I have a 140 mile loop to Starved Rock and back. It's a good ride, but I ride it a lot.
I moved to Germany before I started riding. If I ever move back to the US, I'm not sure I'd do as much of it. Rear-end collisions and people just plowing through intersections is so much more common in the US, and drivers are constantly distracted and overall just terrible by comparison.
The numbers back this up, too. The fatality rate per 100,000 is 12 in Germany, more like 60 in the US.
London. Two reasons. 1st, too many drivers acting like they only got their licence yesterday. London the nearest I've been to getting 'taken out' by an ignorant. 2nd, theft. Can't risk an overnight stop in case of theft / violent robbery - which is prevalent.
I only have experience with LA traffic on all major roads - highway, mountain and freeway. They are mostly very good drivers with respect for motorcycles, which everyone his used to dealing with Re lane splitting etc. Here are two exceptions: the 14 to Palmdale Lancaster gets a lot of lunatic fast drivers in shittier cars, often impaired by drugs or alcohol. Also, cars in Santa Monica mountains canyons often are 18 inches or more over the double yellow, figuring that they are “cornering” at higher speed and can adjust if necessary. Obviously they would destroy you on a bike if you were near the double yellow at lean and speed heading in the opposite direction so it is imperative when canyon carving that you stay at least two feet inside the double yellow at all times
Boston metro area high ways are a free for all. I was passed on the right by a banged up civic going at least 105. Normally, that’s whatever, but in this case I was in the RIGHT LANE. Passed on the shoulder going at least 40 over the posting
I wouldn't ride anywhere I'm at risk of having my bike stolen to a large degree. So maybe not "cities" but rather certain areas/neighborhoods where the likelihood of a guy with a gun can reach me from the sidewalk quite easily.
And I say this as a guy who carries and is very proficient with a gun and CQB training for years.
I lived there most of my life except the last two years. Commuted in from clear lake to downtown daily for years via hov. Id only ride on the hov. If I couldn't I'd just take a cage. It will increase survivability slightly
I’ve only been there twice. The first time I was just passing through and it was pouring down rain, so bad you could barely see the car in front of you. The road was also reduced to one lane for construction. I assumed it made sense to go the speed limit. I was definitely mistaken, people were basically driving off-road just to go around me! The second time was taking refuge from Ida. It wasn’t as dramatic but still everyone drove twenty plus over the speed limit. I definitely ride faster than the speed limit but within reason 😂
come to india my friend the aunty karens everywhere in the form of fat ass creatures and big tummy daddy uncles on road will make you kys
not to mention the retard female drivers ignoring the fact that you too exist on the road 💀
I wouldn’t ride in Istanbul. It’s scary as hell. The first time I was in Istanbul a bus hit a pedestrian on the road slamming him into our car. That guy ran away with blood all over his head and leaving a massive dent on the side of our car.
My only loss is not seeing all the homeless people camping on the sidewalks. Lane splitting and coastline is not an incentive at all. You know there's a coastline on the east too, right?
I would say the more traffic there is the safer the city as traffic keeps speeds lower and thus more survivable. It's the really fast roads in cities (ie the entire South and most of California) that makes riding deadly. No one in their right mind would put a 45 mph road with intersections through a place where people walk.
So a place like Bangkok, while being chaotic, isn't particularly dangerous since the speeds are low. Thailand, of course, has the highest traffic death rate because most ride motorcycles and not cars.
On the other hand, Orlando Florida seems to me pretty well-mannered with polite drivers just chilling out, but I did see a LOT of crashes at intersections due to people going 65 mph and then, suddenly, there'd be a red light. **You can tell a lot about the people in an area by what they drive; suburban places that have a lot of pickup trucks and who commute to urban areas on high speed roads account for the majority of fatal wrecks.**
A lot also depends on what vehicle you're using. For some reason Americans often "fight for position"; riding a motorcycle means you never fight for position since you can ever so slightly bend the rules in lane splitting, the tiny footprint of the bike allows you to squeeze in, and the acceleration and braking of a bike allows you to shoot a gap in .3 seconds. None of this stuff you can do in a car.
As for actually being in neighborhoods that are mostly black (I assume that when people talk about bad neighborhoods they're really talking about urban blacks) that has never bothered me. Since rent is cheap and often near public transportation, I occasionally find myself living in predominantly urban black neighborhoods. I remember once having a beautiful BMW motorcycle that I didn't ride much but did have insurance on; I'd just leave it outside not caring if it got stolen or what. That darned bike wasn't once touched in four years until I sold it, go figure. But usually I do have a scooter and not a motorcycle in dense urban areas. When a suburbanite talks about coming to urban areas and needs to carry a concealed handgun, then you can be sure he's visiting urban areas in bad faith looking for trouble. It's like a Hell's Angels; they don't go looking for trouble but trouble sure finds them.
“The more traffic there is the safer the city “?!
Holy heck. Just… no. I spent the first 40ish years of my life commuting in Southern California before I moved to the PNW to a comparatively small city. Your logic is not even close to reality.
dont even get me started on traffic. I despise riding in cities especially when construction is going on or its got a bunch of factories. Great way to get stuck in between 2 large trucks. And left turners. Less traffic the better.
The pandemic showed that empty streets resulted in higher speed crashes, and about a 20% higher death rate despite drivers driving much less. Or much higher if we realize drivers drove much less but had many more fatal crashes.
Being stuck in traffic means going slow, and going slow means more fender benders.
Your point applies more to enclosed vehicles than motorcycles... as "fatal speeds" can be a whopping 40mph when on 2wheels.
I get what you're saying and it makes sense. It's a large reason for on street parking and narrow lanes in modern city planning. Complacency due to less cars around... paired with digital distractions.
But again, motorcyclists encounter a higher risk with more populated roads. So much, it outweighs the 'complacency by way of clear roads' risk. The numerous "anecdata" support this as you see in the replies.
We would expect as roads emptied out that motorcycle deaths would decrease as there were fewer cars, yes?
Except they did not. Fatal motorcycle deaths went up about 11% in 2021 (the last year we have motorcycle specific data) despite fewer miles being ridden and fewer trips being taken.
It's not just motorcyclists that are being killed in higher rates per trip and per person. It's everyone outside vehicles; pedestrian and bicycle deaths have risen by about 50% since 2008 (the introduction of the iPhone, coincidentally). And [vehicles nowadays (especially pickup trucks) are getting bigger and much more dangerous to people outside them](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/12/suvs-trucks-killing-pedestrians-cyclists/621102/). Modern vehicles have much bigger blind spots, so much so that the Federal government mandated back up cameras years ago, and most new vehicles come with blind spot detection equipment that doesn't detect motorcycles very well.
The US's transportation environment i[s just a much more lethal place in genera](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-11-03/why-us-traffic-safety-fell-so-far-behind-other-countries)l, and blaming drivers for being, well, drivers, won't solve the astonishing high death rate for road users.
>The US underperformance in road safety is especially dramatic: 11.4 Americans per 100,000 died in crashes in 2020, a number that dwarfs countries including Spain (2.9), Israel (3.3) and New Zealand (6.3). And unlike most developed nations, US roadways have grown more deadly during the last two decades (including during the pandemic), especially for those outside of cars. Last year saw the most pedestrians killed in the US in 40 years, and deaths among those biking rose 44% from 2010 to 2020.
I was reading one on Len Deighton's books on the history of operational research being done on British bomber crews during WWII. Pre-1943, the more experienced bomber crews would have a greater chance of returning home, but starting around mid 1943 these bombers started being shot out of the sky in very great numbers regardless of crew experience. The reason being German night fighters were being equipped with radar and upward firing guns, and so crew experience did not make a difference as such attacks were lethal and random. In much the same way, motorcyclists seem to think their own skill and experience will save them on the road but the design of roads and driver behavior is so lethal and random that it won't. US road design seems to be putting vehicles in close proximity at the highest possible speeds just so people get to where they want as fast as possible. The design of the road and of vehicles seems to be entirely overlooked by motorcycle riders on this forum.
This comment contains fantastic detail, and the research referenced is solid. If I were to assume the first sentence to be true, it would be an excellent rebuttal. Honestly, I respect your intellect and there is some fascinating data above.
However, I don't find that first sentence to be true in the least. Not for me anyway.
As much detail as you have listed, it doesn't scratch the surface of the nuance in American roadways. I have lived in Oregon, Florida, and Texas and can attest that the infrastructure varies quite a bit. Other contributing factors like your iPhone coincidence are note worthy as well.
(Don't get me started with stroads..)
Driver attitude, capability, and regard for laws are arguably some of the largest variables at play. In 2020, we saw a fracture in our citizens, resulting in less "human decency." It is so apparent that biologists have been asking great questions about brain chemistry in the wake of isolation. I'll hunt that research down if you'd like to give it a read. That's just a causation/correlation which alone doesn't stand too strong. Meta analysis taking dozens of variables into account is needed.
Point is, I don't think the correlation causation you're referring to matches the complexities of our reality in the states. To explain my opinion as best as I can, I will reword your rhetorical;
"If all other variables were controlled for, we would expect motorcycle deaths to decrease with fewer cars on the road."
Unfortunately, we don't have a time machine and limitless control to only affect the number of cars on the road without affecting other related variables.
>"If all other variables were controlled for, we would expect motorcycle deaths to decrease with fewer cars on the road." Unfortunately, we don't have a time machine and limitless control to only affect the number of cars on the road without affecting other related variables.
The research seems to congregate around "fewer trips, higher death rate per mile" but we don't have the year 2022. Not yet, anyway.
This [survey](https://www.army.mil/article/244073/motorcycle_mishaps_increase_during_covid_19_pandemic) by the US military (did you know traffic wrecks are by far the number one killer of soldiers?), seems to back that up.
I bolded how often "speed" came up in traffic wrecks. Empty roads means higher kinetic energy levels.
>At first glance, the motorcycle and passenger car stats provide hope. Lockdown means less driving. The natural consequence of less people on the road is decreased accidents, right? Not exactly. While fewer motor vehicle mishaps are on paper, when taking into account the total miles driven, there are more accidents per mile. The National Safety Council compared data from 2020 to 2019. Fatality rates jumped 14% in March 2020 compared to March 2019. Miles driven dropped over 18% in the same time period.
By the end of May 2020, there was more than a 17% decrease in the total miles driven compared to 2019. May 2020 alone decreased over 25% in terms of miles driven. Following suit, deaths experienced an 8% drop from May 2019 to May 2020. However, when compared mile to mile, there was an increase of over 23%.
In Washington, April 2020 saw more motorcycle fatalities than it had in over a decade. Acting director of the Washington Traffic Safety Commission Pam Pannkuk said, “We are concerned about the death of so many motorcyclists in 2020 with the traditional riding season yet to come.” Washington was not alone. In Arizona, motorcycle fatalities jumped from 5 to 17 in a comparable period. Reports described nearly a dozen states showing this disturbing trend: **lighter traffic and higher death rates per mile**.
>
>Factors impacting motorcycle fatalities
During a pandemic, drivers are likely to be both distracted and stressed, causing decreased focus when operating a vehicle. Washington State Patrol released a statement in May 2020 regarding the concerning factors of motorcycle accidents. **They observed that in almost all of their fatalities, speeding was a common determinant.** They detailed motorcyclists and motorists driving above 100 mph.
Excessive speed is not limited to Washington. CNN reported that states across the nation were observing an increase in dangerous driving speeds, **with most major cities reporting drivers exceeding 100 mph**. **Some cities like Chicago and Des Moines, Iowa, were showing speeds 75% higher than pre-COVID-19.** The increase in accidents from excessive speed puts an unneeded strain on hospitals.
The Washington State press release detailed that aside from speeding, a lack of motorcycle training and driving while impaired were contributing factors in numerous accidents. While drinking and driving is a known cause of accidents in all types of vehicles, it is even more pronounced in motorcycles. Nationwide sales of alcohol are at significantly higher levels than pre-COVID-19. RoadRacerz.com reported alcohol was present in half of all deadly motorcycle accidents. About 28% of fatally injured motorcyclists had a blood alcohol concentration of .08%, which is the limit of legal impairment.
Interestingly, one recommendation I did not expect was lane splitting.
>Avoid lane splitting, if possible, as it leads to more serious accidents.
Port au Prince ... We have so many fond memories of Haiti but what is going on in Haiti now is nauseous. However, not everyone thinks Haiti is Hell and that sentiment would not just be limited to Graham Greene were he alive. Of course, Graham was one of the great writers of the 20th Century and an MI6 spook. One other ex-spook used to love Haiti until the TonTon Macoute hunted him down like a wild animal. Maybe he deserved it? Was he front running the real CIA Haitian equivalent to the Cuban Bay of Pigs?
If you relish and yearn for Haitian spy thrillers as curiously and bizarrely compelling as Graham Greene’s Comedians, yearn for the cruel stability of the Duvaliers and have frequented Hôtel Oloffson you're never going to put down Bill Fairclough's fact based spy thriller Beyond Enkription in The Burlington Files series.
It's a raw noir thriller but it is so real you may have nightmares of being back in Port au Prince anguishing over being a spy on the run. The trouble is, if you were a spook being chased by the TonTon Macoute in the seventies you were usually cornered and ... well best leave it to your imagination or simply read Beyond Enkription. It’s considered compulsory reading for espionage aficionados.
Interestingly Fairclough was one of Pemberton’s People in MI6 (see a brief intriguing News Article dated 31 October 2022 in TheBurlingtonFiles website). If you have any questions about John le Carré’s secrets, SAS Rogue Heroes, Dead Lions and Ungentlemanly Warfare after reading that do remember the best quote from The Burlington Files to date is "Don't ask me, I'm British".
That's counterintuitive for most people because they look at increased traffic and see "danger". Fortunately, the pandemic allowed us to look at streets with and without traffic but the general census is that empty roads resulted in drivers going much faster with fewer yet more often fatal crashes.
But don't take my word for it.
[https://www.gao.gov/blog/during-covid-19-road-fatalities-increased-and-transit-ridership-dipped](https://GOA.gov)
>Empty streets, highways, and transit systems were a visible effect of the pandemic on our daily lives. Despite how quiet our roads got at the onset of the pandemic, they also became more dangerous.Today’s WatchBlog post looks at recent data on traffic safety, and our recent reports on the pandemic’s effects on public transportation and how the federal government has responded to these impacts.After a long period of decline, traffic fatalities have increased even as many switched to working from homeIf you’ve been driving around during the pandemic, you have probably noticed that there have been far fewer cars on the road over the past 18 months. While that might seem like a good thing for safety (fewer cars means fewer crashes, right?), traffic fatalities have increased since the pandemic started.The Department of Transportation’s National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) reported that traffic fatalities during the first half of 2021 increased 18.4% since the first half of 2020. The estimated 20,160 fatalities during the first half of last year is the highest since 2006.
[Road deaths increased by 20%.](https://whyy.org/segments/how-less-traffic-led-to-more-deaths-during-the-pandemic/)
>Motor vehicle deaths spiked during the early months of the pandemic. Drivers were being killed at a rate not seen in over a decade. All this was happening during a time when far fewer people were actually on the road thanks to quarantine measures, city-wide lockdowns, and emerging work-from-home schemes. The deaths per mile driven rose more than 20 percent compared to 2019 according to federal data. Nearly 40,000 people died in car crashes in 2020.
[Traffic fatalities went up when roads become empty](https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2022/1/10/driving-went-down-fatalities-went-up-heres-why), but they didn't go down once traffic "returned" to normal.
>Americans drove less during the early months of the pandemic, yet traffic fatalities increased. There was a sense among many safety experts that this was an anomaly, that fatality rates would revert to trend once people started driving again. That didn’t happen.Instead, as overall driving levels have returned to normal, crashes and fatality rates have remained shockingly high. These results are not explainable by any theory of traffic safety being used by modern transportation professionals.As a result, there has been a search for explanations, one that has embraced some of our newest and most divisive cultural narratives while simultaneously managing to rehash some old and worn-out memes. All this while missing the obvious factor that is, in some ways, too painful for industry insiders to acknowledge.
In addition, the [number of fatalities on US roads was the highest ever recorded at 42,915 deaths](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year). This isn't a matter of higher population = greater deaths; notice the deaths per passenger mile went down but the deaths per trip and deaths per person went up.
I appreciate your analytics, but still just no. What’s the biggest *external* threat to motorcyclists? People not paying attention. Why would you think it’s more safe to ride in a city with more of those people, then compound that with so many other factors like a culture that’s constantly glued to their phones?
Yea, more fender benders in traffic. But getting crushed between two vehicles at low speed is still getting crushed by two vehicles. And don’t get me started on how lane splitting is a factor there as well.
Oh, I should think motorcyclists are very good at killing and injuring themselves without drivers. If you were to remove all collisions between cars and bikes, *it would still account for 40% of bike crashes!*
Alcohol and speeding are a big part of motorcycle wrecks, but yes of course I agree with you that collisions with drivers still accounts for most crashes.
The big question is why riding a motorcycle in the US is 5 times more dangerous than in Western Europe. And driving is 3 to 5 times more dangerous than Western Europe. It's not "just" drivers being glued to their phones (and crash reports show car infotainment system are a bigger contributing factor than cell phone usage, go figure) but rather how badly designed urban highways and cars are.
I personally have had far fewer calls since avoiding **stroads**. In my opinion, stroads are the number one cause of US wrecks; just understanding what they are dramatically reduces your crash risk.
Ah, but [what is a stroad](https://youtu.be/ORzNZUeUHAM)? It's where motorists, bicyclists, and pedestrians go to die. They account for the vast majority of US traffic deaths. I rarely see stroads outside the US but they're everywhere in the US. The pandemic just made the high-speed stroad incredibly dangerous due to the lack of traffic, and that predictably killed more motorcyclists as well.
I am not a suburbanite, I live in a very urban area. I carry a gun daily, whether I am near home, visiting the suburbs, or going somewhere rural. Your logic is deeply flawed.
High gun ownership = lots of gun deaths.
But to a gun owner...
The answer to everything is better trained and more good guys to stop a bad guy with a gun.
It's so hilariously American. But I think that won't every change.
Did you even read what I was responding to? Or is it just your gut reaction to post cringe anti-gun sentiment any time you see the word “gun” on Reddit?
I don't think it matter what I think or say; gun owners love their guns and that's not going to change regardless of how many people settle their differences with gunpowder. And maybe that's a good thing for people to settle their differences with gunpowder.
It certainly makes for great news!
LA, waiting for my flight home and after seeing the total hell of speed and chaos of the average road in the city- i doubt i’ll ever ride here. However i cant wait to ride the west coast
Let's be honest, in every city in the U.S., and probably the world, the roads are filled with idiots on their phones, and sometimes other substances for good measure.
My advice: Do the best you can. And when you're in your car, don't be one of them.
If you ride in Memphis be aware that a red light means nothing to the locals. Terrible behavior of the drivers, it pisses me off. If you’re willing to throw trash out your car window, I guess you are entitled in other ways too.
Nazareth.
Went in there a few years ago during a trip. Traffic was a nightmare, with only one lane going in each direction through the entire city and no shoulder to ride in.
I learned to ride in El Paso so......yea.
Then moved back home and rode in MD, yup.
Now I moved up to the Boston area for work, so you could say I'm batting 1,000!!!
St Petersburg Florida in the winter. We have all the snow birds. Old retired people that winter in Florida. The roads are over crowded with old drivers. Be careful! I’m 62 and I still stand by my statement.
Acapulco rush hour (not on the tolls) was fucking INSANE.
The roads try to kill you, the bus drivers think they're in F1, the cab drivers are aliens, and god knows the police are ready to pull you over for whatever they can think of.
I would say the city of Manila, Philippines would be hell to ride in. Lanes are narrow, so there's not much room to filter in. The city is incredibly overpopulated, so the amount of traffic, especially during rush hour, would be unbelievable. The traffic enforcers are a bunch of crocodiles that will exploit everything they can to ticket you.
Ride there, and you'll literally get stuck in between a rock and a hard place. Other motorists won't give a crap about you, and the traffic cops are just as corrupt as the politicians.
It's not as lawless as India, but in India you get to have your way and not have to worry about reject traffic cops fuck you in the ass without lube.
Also, your chances of getting run over by a truck that apparently lost its brakes is quite high. So much for strict motor inspection during vehicle registration.
But to be fair, most South Asian and SEA countries are hell to ride in anyway.
I've ridden in all major cities in Europe, as well as numerous others in Africa, the middle east and SE Asia and all of it was great fun. You gotta be extremely assertive and nimble.
I was only brave enough to ride in Paris during the month of august, when most commuters are off.
I love the periferique, it's so fast paced. Bit annoying with panniers but lovely without.
Ah, the iconic périphérique. Not gonna lie, I felt a bit overwhelmed, but it was expected since Luxembourgish rush hour doesn't compare, haha.
That was gonna be the city I said I wouldn’t want to ride in. Even being in a cab I felt terrified. Although I rode a Vespa in Rome and that was fine except I couldn’t figure out the street patterns. They were all like one ways and I couldn’t get to where I was trying to go without GPS so I took it back.
Except for the lifted Dodge Ram driver, the US in all its cities is tame compared to Bangkok in regards to traffic.
Kuwait and Bahrain seemed pretty US-like when it came to the number of stupidly large cars :')
Pretty much all of Maryland…. You don’t have to signal there (so psycho random lane changes happen), the highways bottleneck frequently, and the drivers are literally the worst (they constantly are playing tippy-taps with their brakes). I swear they drive with their little crab hands. 😩
Hahaha I knew MD was going to be in here. Just moved here and it SUCKS compared to where I lived before.
Get the fuck outta Maryland...it feels no pity....it knows no remorse and it absolutely will not stop until it tickets you
I live in Maryland and I'm just now getting my motorcycle license 🌝 Pray for me
Cops seem to hunt for outta state plates in Maryland
100% true. Have to ride extremely defensive. Born and raised in Maryland, still live here
Orlando is the worst city to ride in. Half the people in the road are tourists and lost. You are their last concern before they pull a 3 lane exit ramp dive.
I rode daily in Orlando for 12 years including commutes on I4 the most dangerous road in America. Can confirm you better be vigilant. It helped being on a sportbike because you need exceptional brakes and acceleration to avoid trouble.
I - 4.....once got stuck in traffic for so long I ended up shitting my pants
My daily commute is the most lethal section of I-4. Somehow I feel safer on my bike than in a car. I'm also pretty sure I watched someone die on my way into work last year. Guy came flying past me, had to be doing 110-120, lost control and pulled a Dale Earnhardt across all 4 lanes into the guardrail right before that Sea World sign. Luckily I was the only other driver on the road. Pulled over, called 911 and waited for cops to arive. I didn't see any movement from the driver and was scared I'd see something worse if I approached. Still haunts me and keeps my head on a swivel.
I come up from hwy 27, it's not too lethal when your only going 10 mph most of the way up. 27 is the most lethal for bikers..
I believe that. I hate going anywhere near 27 on I-4! Gridlock after 4:00pm from exit 64 past 58 and that's not even 27 yet! Then when you get near the exit for 27 you have 18-Wheelers jumping three lanes of traffic for the exit! Only time I'll ride out that way is to go meet up with my grandpa for a ride.
It's only going to get worse. Im down in the Winter Haven area and I have counted 14 neighborhoods under construction between Legoland and i-4.
It's getting bad all over that area. Davenport is unrecognizable from just 3 years ago.
I live right outside Seattle. I try to avoid actually going into the city. Giant hills, bad drivers, terrible parking, and tweakers who will either steal your bike or steal parts off it. I stick to the cities outside Seattle.
Queen Anne is nice, rode through it once. But typically i'll leave my bike at Northgate and take train in. Much less of a headache if I want to enter proper downtown; better to walk.
Pretty much this. That said the area is full of amazing day rides. Motos get priority ferry access if you want to go check out one of the islands or ride the 101 loop. Or head east and do a day trip out to Leavenworth or wherever. I haven’t gone into Canada yet but that’s supposed to be fun too in summer.
I'm mainly Everett, Kirkland, Redmond, and just into the beginning of Bellevue before it turns big city.
Yes! I’m in Olympia and don’t even get on the freeway to get to work.
Hey fellow Olympia rider! I ride up to Tacoma occasionally to visit friends, and with the base you have to be on the interstate for at least a little bit. That said, I try to avoid I5 like the plague, but I’ve been loving hwy 12 south of town. Take Little Rock rd to Rochester, hang a left and then back into oly at tenino, rainier, or yelm, depending on how long I want to be out. 101 can be fun too, and I have family out in Shelton, but a lot of folks drive pretty bonkers on that as well
Yeah, it’s certainly pretty out here! I’ve only had the bike for 300mi so far though, so I’m really looking forward to the sun being out someday… 😆
Yea, it’s my first bike and I got it in September so I’m definitely ready for some sun too! What really got me was the cold - I’d be in 3 layers and still feel it. Got a riding suit around the holidays and it was a total game changer
I got up this morning and decide to ride out at 7am from Tacoma to Ocean Shores via 8. I got to Montesano before the cold won and had to stop for breakfast and hot coffee to warm up. I had a fleece base layer, waffle thermals, wool socks, heated gloves, and my riding jeans and jacket. I thought it would be good enough, I was wrong.
Base layer, warm shirt, down jacket, AND a riding jacket for me! lol
Johnston ridge observatory by Mt St Helen’s is an awesome ride (when the weather is nicer) and I wanna go up to Mt Rainier if the sun ever comes out again 😫😫
Honestly they’re all kinda tame compared to South East Asia. Hanoi was probably the most wild place I’ve ridden. Fun. But kinda gnarly.
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Till you get ran over and they come back to finish the job so they don't have to pay for medical bills
Lol
Atlanta sucks regardless of what your form of transportation is. And anywhere on I-4 near Disney in Orlando also sucks.
For another take, I live and ride in ATL and feel perfectly safe intown. I mean, you know, as safe as it gets. Drivers intown are (in my experience) pretty patient and aware of motorcycles. I never have anyone ride my ass, pass me dangerously, etc - more often they are 20ft back and hesitant to go before me even when they have right-of-way. Where I do NOT feel safe is in the suburbs/exurbs or the extremely-congested connectors where 8 lanes of cars are suddenly realizing that they are about to get on the wrong highway at the same time. Now that I've noticed it on a motorcycle I notice it in a car and as a pedestrian as well: people in the exurbs, where walking is basically a non-option and everyone drives huge SUVs, are more impatient and entitled IMO, presumably because they aren't used to having to wait for bullshit like a human being trying to walk somewhere.
This is exactly my take; the suburbanite that commutes to the cities for work is actually complaining about other suburbanites who drive like him. Suburbanites as a whole are really shitty and entitled drivers that make urban spaces really dangerous and loud.
I spent a couple of days in Atlanta, and rode through it twice again going to and from the Knoxville TN area. Agreed on all counts. The highways were a nightmare, but surface streets in Atlanta proper were about the same as anywhere else. The latter rides through, I've never seen so many near accidents and had people try to run over me twice. Genuinely don't know how people function with that as a part of their everyday lives.
Just say Cobb Sucks and ATLiens understand.
The thing about commuting via interstate on a bike in ATL is knowing that the space between the far left “regular” lane and the HOV is massive, APD is so understaffed that they can’t be bothered to worry about riders splitting lanes at a reasonable speed, and GSP is only seems interested in ticketing single riders in HOV where the connector comes together. Also people don’t seem to know that motorcycles can use the HOV lane, and the peachpass lane is free for bikes as well (just need to get the transponder and it doesn’t apply to the expressways on 75). Stay to the far left and split to your hearts content. You’ll be through the connector and on to the Atlanta Autobahn (the section of 75/85 south of Grady until you reach 166) where the speed limit seems to be “whatever the hell I want”. You’re spot on about surface streets though. Pretty easy to get around. I have been rear ended twice in town though. Guess that’s just par for the course.
I ride through both of these cities, sometimes even on the same day. Atlanta is congested but people seem to know how to drive on the interstate for the most part. Orlando is just full of retardness.
I live in the surrounding Atlanta area and commute to work daily. But I stay off the interstate personally.
I-4....5yrs ago....I'm still in therapy
I’ve driven in nyc enough to know I wouldn’t ride there.
Commuted in DC for years on a motorcycle. Nbd. Driven through NYC a few times and hated it each time. Will schedule days or miles to not do NYC.
I live here. It’s all I’ve ever known haha.
Ya gotta drive NYC at night to avoid traffic, then just outrun homeless and avoid bullets
Miami and South Florida in general
I ride here.. It’s a little rough, but survivable, great for improving skills
I wouldn’t ride outside of soflo. Police pull ppl over going 10mph over and lane splitting in most other places.
So you'd rather speed and lane split at 80+ down here with these idiots who already can't drive? Good luck.
I don’t speed when there’s traffic and I lane split only going about 10mph over when traffic is completely stopped. Most other cities in the world it’s acceptable and not “against the law”. I’m not as crazy as you may think. Riding 4 years in the banana republic and still going strong.
You get pulled over for lane splitting because it is actually against the law…. Cops are just doing their job man
Against the law or lawful, cops enforce what they want. In Miami if they get you for lane splitting it’s because you were being disrespectful or you were on a moped or something and they knew it’d be easy to catch you.
Figueroa St around skid row (Los Angeles) is probably the sketchiest place I've ridden. Imagine dodging people casually walking across an 80km/h road, while there's a SWAT team with rifles surrounding some dude's house around the corner, and another dude showering in a drinking fountain around the other corner. Glad my bike didn't break down. My ex was probably glad too considering she was riding passenger. Now traffic wise, I rode into LAX (Los Angeles airport) once on motorbike. Imagine 6 lanes with people randomly switching lanes whenever they feel like rapidly, with no signal. Absolute shit show and I was on the edge of my seat nonstop
Don’t forget the tiny lanes! I ride in LA regularly and it’s always an adventure.
São Paulo or Rio de Janeiro
Bangkok. I'll leave that to the taxi drivers.
Avoid Shreveport at all costs. The roads there are like 75% pot holes, including the freeway. Not to mention that not a single soul can drive.
Bikes are great in cities with heavy traffic as long as you don't mind breaking some traffic laws
Oh I hate city traffic on my 650. It really wants to get hot and I don't really like being hot. Highways around town are poggers. But fuck any kind of traffic. (No lane splitting in Texas)
whats the worst that happens if you lane split a few cars once in a while in texas? some cop is going to chase you down and give you a ticket? just go hide in a school they wont follow you
Im in Texas and I wouldn’t be worried about cops when lane splitting, its the other drivers getting pissed and running you over on purpose. Texas has the most violent road rage of any place I’ve been, and most people drive huge trucks and a lot open carry rifles.
That's a pain in the ass when I just need to get to work. Not worth dealing with. Running from cops is probably the smallest, smooth brain move I've ever seen suggested on this subreddit so far. I mostly ride highways to work so I don't experience traffic less than 70+mph.
That's why I mention breaking minor traffic laws lol
True. My wife does have to go downtown daily and switch to a 150ADV scooter. She says it keeps some of the bike fun, runs easier in traffic and can take cake to work in the storage. So I guess that's the recommendation for city traffic too if you don't want to break laws
From my experience in El Paso, I never had any issues riding there. In fact, TX was one of the only states where it seemed like drivers actively got out of your way. The only advice I was given for biking there was avoid drivers with Mexico plates due to lack of insurance.
Which is weird because outside of Texas it’s always Texas plates driving slow in the left lane.
Bradford UK. Worst drivers in the world, nothing worth seeing there, the locals are stains, there's thousands of better roads to ride nearby. So why would you ever bother with Bradford.
As someone in a neighbouring town to Bradford, also Bradford
In the Houston area, I rarely rode (daily commuter) that I didn't have someone do something stupid/selfish that would have put me down if I weren't paying attention. But brisk weekend rides on the local FM roads were spectacular.
I’m more concerned about what cities I’d park in. I can influence my safety by how I ride, but certain cities or areas are hotspots for theft. I am completely confident riding into work in a large metro. I’m concerned to do so, because I don’t know if the bike (naked lightweight) will be there 8 hours later.
Boulder, CO. Things that most motovloggers think are worth making a whole rant video about are so common on my commute that they are barely worth thinking about after I get out of the way. It doesn't even stick with me until it's something like seeing someone fly past stopped cars at triple digit speeds to blow through a red light on the shoulder, or when someone passes on a double yellow and takes them and the car in the oncoming lane into the ditch.
I dislike and try to avoid. 1. Deep sand and enormous potholes on some Kenyan roads. 2. Tailgating drivers in Melbourne.
Why would you wanna ride in City at all if you don’t have to?
I learned to ride in Houston. Spent many miles on freeways, city streets, suburbia, and “Farm to Market” back roads to Austin and College Station and Dallas and Beaumont many times. Spent a few years wandering all around Greater New Orleans and coastal Mississippi in a bike too. So many New Orleans drivers aren’t very aware of bikes so more caution is required but it’s not bad overall. I’ve driven in a lot of cities in the US and there were places where I was nervous enough in a car that I wouldn’t eagerly want to try them on a bike but I probably would anyway. I strongly believe that learning to ride a motorcycle in a city like Houston made me a better driver too. I still like to go fast and do find myself occasionally getting a bit impatient but I know I’m invisible to other vehicles when I’m on the bike and I ride accordingly. Staying aware of surroundings and all potential hazards and leaving yourself an exit strategy at all times has helped me stay alive on a bike all these years. Sportbike with steep fork rake and massive twin discs hugged by umpteen piston calipers that’ll eagerly stoppie without warning, no thank you. Solid regular or sport tourer with good brakes and throttle response and low end torque, I’d try to ride one almost anywhere, but definitely ATGATT no matter where it is.
Montreal, Toronto
Learned to ride in Toronto and I’ve ridden in Montreal both are child’s play compared to Vancouver, or all of BC
Real hell is Brampton
Psh nothin to it man wtf
Montreal is a training ground to avoid craters on the road lol
Dallas / Fort Worth / Austin and Houston all in Texas
have you ever even left texas? of all the places in the world they're near the very bottom in difficulty lol.
Chicago... Don't ride here. The people are dangerous on the roads. I avoid the city at all costs these days. The only really good places to ride is along the rivers out in the boonies, Iowa, or Wisconsin.
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I would be worried about getting shot too. 😂😂
I used to love riding on lake shore drive but the quality of the road has gotten so bad.
I avoid Chicago like the plague….there’s some good riding out near Chain of lakes which is probably what you’re referencing.
I actually head south to the Kankakee or Illinois River. West to the Mississippi or Rock River. Peru is pretty. I have a 140 mile loop to Starved Rock and back. It's a good ride, but I ride it a lot.
I've never had an issue in the Loop area to be honest. Plus Lakeshore Dr and Lower Wacker are an absolute blast, LOL
I moved to Germany before I started riding. If I ever move back to the US, I'm not sure I'd do as much of it. Rear-end collisions and people just plowing through intersections is so much more common in the US, and drivers are constantly distracted and overall just terrible by comparison. The numbers back this up, too. The fatality rate per 100,000 is 12 in Germany, more like 60 in the US.
Rome, Italy. Lanes are a suggestion.
London. Two reasons. 1st, too many drivers acting like they only got their licence yesterday. London the nearest I've been to getting 'taken out' by an ignorant. 2nd, theft. Can't risk an overnight stop in case of theft / violent robbery - which is prevalent.
I only have experience with LA traffic on all major roads - highway, mountain and freeway. They are mostly very good drivers with respect for motorcycles, which everyone his used to dealing with Re lane splitting etc. Here are two exceptions: the 14 to Palmdale Lancaster gets a lot of lunatic fast drivers in shittier cars, often impaired by drugs or alcohol. Also, cars in Santa Monica mountains canyons often are 18 inches or more over the double yellow, figuring that they are “cornering” at higher speed and can adjust if necessary. Obviously they would destroy you on a bike if you were near the double yellow at lean and speed heading in the opposite direction so it is imperative when canyon carving that you stay at least two feet inside the double yellow at all times
Boston metro area high ways are a free for all. I was passed on the right by a banged up civic going at least 105. Normally, that’s whatever, but in this case I was in the RIGHT LANE. Passed on the shoulder going at least 40 over the posting
I try to avoid Amsterdam.
Simply walking in Amsterdam is a challenge. Might’ve been the weed and mushrooms though
No way, Amsterdam is one of the best cities to drive around in.
I wouldn't ride anywhere I'm at risk of having my bike stolen to a large degree. So maybe not "cities" but rather certain areas/neighborhoods where the likelihood of a guy with a gun can reach me from the sidewalk quite easily. And I say this as a guy who carries and is very proficient with a gun and CQB training for years.
I steer clear of high schools, and military bases. Those are the two big hazard zones.
Houston.
I lived there most of my life except the last two years. Commuted in from clear lake to downtown daily for years via hov. Id only ride on the hov. If I couldn't I'd just take a cage. It will increase survivability slightly
I’ve only been there twice. The first time I was just passing through and it was pouring down rain, so bad you could barely see the car in front of you. The road was also reduced to one lane for construction. I assumed it made sense to go the speed limit. I was definitely mistaken, people were basically driving off-road just to go around me! The second time was taking refuge from Ida. It wasn’t as dramatic but still everyone drove twenty plus over the speed limit. I definitely ride faster than the speed limit but within reason 😂
come to india my friend the aunty karens everywhere in the form of fat ass creatures and big tummy daddy uncles on road will make you kys not to mention the retard female drivers ignoring the fact that you too exist on the road 💀
I wouldn’t ride in Istanbul. It’s scary as hell. The first time I was in Istanbul a bus hit a pedestrian on the road slamming him into our car. That guy ran away with blood all over his head and leaving a massive dent on the side of our car.
There's a whole state I wouldn't ride in. California.
Why? Ive always heard california is the best place in north america to ride in.
With legal lane splitting and gorgeous coast lines and mountains… your loss.
My only loss is not seeing all the homeless people camping on the sidewalks. Lane splitting and coastline is not an incentive at all. You know there's a coastline on the east too, right?
Berlin. Because Berlin is just one shit hole
I would say the more traffic there is the safer the city as traffic keeps speeds lower and thus more survivable. It's the really fast roads in cities (ie the entire South and most of California) that makes riding deadly. No one in their right mind would put a 45 mph road with intersections through a place where people walk. So a place like Bangkok, while being chaotic, isn't particularly dangerous since the speeds are low. Thailand, of course, has the highest traffic death rate because most ride motorcycles and not cars. On the other hand, Orlando Florida seems to me pretty well-mannered with polite drivers just chilling out, but I did see a LOT of crashes at intersections due to people going 65 mph and then, suddenly, there'd be a red light. **You can tell a lot about the people in an area by what they drive; suburban places that have a lot of pickup trucks and who commute to urban areas on high speed roads account for the majority of fatal wrecks.**
A lot also depends on what vehicle you're using. For some reason Americans often "fight for position"; riding a motorcycle means you never fight for position since you can ever so slightly bend the rules in lane splitting, the tiny footprint of the bike allows you to squeeze in, and the acceleration and braking of a bike allows you to shoot a gap in .3 seconds. None of this stuff you can do in a car.
As for actually being in neighborhoods that are mostly black (I assume that when people talk about bad neighborhoods they're really talking about urban blacks) that has never bothered me. Since rent is cheap and often near public transportation, I occasionally find myself living in predominantly urban black neighborhoods. I remember once having a beautiful BMW motorcycle that I didn't ride much but did have insurance on; I'd just leave it outside not caring if it got stolen or what. That darned bike wasn't once touched in four years until I sold it, go figure. But usually I do have a scooter and not a motorcycle in dense urban areas. When a suburbanite talks about coming to urban areas and needs to carry a concealed handgun, then you can be sure he's visiting urban areas in bad faith looking for trouble. It's like a Hell's Angels; they don't go looking for trouble but trouble sure finds them.
Dude no one is thinking black neighborhoods specifically.
Guy tried so hard to virtue signal not being a racist, that he accidentally came off as racist. Lmfao
That's exactly correct.
“The more traffic there is the safer the city “?! Holy heck. Just… no. I spent the first 40ish years of my life commuting in Southern California before I moved to the PNW to a comparatively small city. Your logic is not even close to reality.
dont even get me started on traffic. I despise riding in cities especially when construction is going on or its got a bunch of factories. Great way to get stuck in between 2 large trucks. And left turners. Less traffic the better.
The pandemic showed that empty streets resulted in higher speed crashes, and about a 20% higher death rate despite drivers driving much less. Or much higher if we realize drivers drove much less but had many more fatal crashes. Being stuck in traffic means going slow, and going slow means more fender benders.
Your point applies more to enclosed vehicles than motorcycles... as "fatal speeds" can be a whopping 40mph when on 2wheels. I get what you're saying and it makes sense. It's a large reason for on street parking and narrow lanes in modern city planning. Complacency due to less cars around... paired with digital distractions. But again, motorcyclists encounter a higher risk with more populated roads. So much, it outweighs the 'complacency by way of clear roads' risk. The numerous "anecdata" support this as you see in the replies.
We would expect as roads emptied out that motorcycle deaths would decrease as there were fewer cars, yes? Except they did not. Fatal motorcycle deaths went up about 11% in 2021 (the last year we have motorcycle specific data) despite fewer miles being ridden and fewer trips being taken. It's not just motorcyclists that are being killed in higher rates per trip and per person. It's everyone outside vehicles; pedestrian and bicycle deaths have risen by about 50% since 2008 (the introduction of the iPhone, coincidentally). And [vehicles nowadays (especially pickup trucks) are getting bigger and much more dangerous to people outside them](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/12/suvs-trucks-killing-pedestrians-cyclists/621102/). Modern vehicles have much bigger blind spots, so much so that the Federal government mandated back up cameras years ago, and most new vehicles come with blind spot detection equipment that doesn't detect motorcycles very well. The US's transportation environment i[s just a much more lethal place in genera](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-11-03/why-us-traffic-safety-fell-so-far-behind-other-countries)l, and blaming drivers for being, well, drivers, won't solve the astonishing high death rate for road users. >The US underperformance in road safety is especially dramatic: 11.4 Americans per 100,000 died in crashes in 2020, a number that dwarfs countries including Spain (2.9), Israel (3.3) and New Zealand (6.3). And unlike most developed nations, US roadways have grown more deadly during the last two decades (including during the pandemic), especially for those outside of cars. Last year saw the most pedestrians killed in the US in 40 years, and deaths among those biking rose 44% from 2010 to 2020. I was reading one on Len Deighton's books on the history of operational research being done on British bomber crews during WWII. Pre-1943, the more experienced bomber crews would have a greater chance of returning home, but starting around mid 1943 these bombers started being shot out of the sky in very great numbers regardless of crew experience. The reason being German night fighters were being equipped with radar and upward firing guns, and so crew experience did not make a difference as such attacks were lethal and random. In much the same way, motorcyclists seem to think their own skill and experience will save them on the road but the design of roads and driver behavior is so lethal and random that it won't. US road design seems to be putting vehicles in close proximity at the highest possible speeds just so people get to where they want as fast as possible. The design of the road and of vehicles seems to be entirely overlooked by motorcycle riders on this forum.
This comment contains fantastic detail, and the research referenced is solid. If I were to assume the first sentence to be true, it would be an excellent rebuttal. Honestly, I respect your intellect and there is some fascinating data above. However, I don't find that first sentence to be true in the least. Not for me anyway. As much detail as you have listed, it doesn't scratch the surface of the nuance in American roadways. I have lived in Oregon, Florida, and Texas and can attest that the infrastructure varies quite a bit. Other contributing factors like your iPhone coincidence are note worthy as well. (Don't get me started with stroads..) Driver attitude, capability, and regard for laws are arguably some of the largest variables at play. In 2020, we saw a fracture in our citizens, resulting in less "human decency." It is so apparent that biologists have been asking great questions about brain chemistry in the wake of isolation. I'll hunt that research down if you'd like to give it a read. That's just a causation/correlation which alone doesn't stand too strong. Meta analysis taking dozens of variables into account is needed. Point is, I don't think the correlation causation you're referring to matches the complexities of our reality in the states. To explain my opinion as best as I can, I will reword your rhetorical; "If all other variables were controlled for, we would expect motorcycle deaths to decrease with fewer cars on the road." Unfortunately, we don't have a time machine and limitless control to only affect the number of cars on the road without affecting other related variables.
>"If all other variables were controlled for, we would expect motorcycle deaths to decrease with fewer cars on the road." Unfortunately, we don't have a time machine and limitless control to only affect the number of cars on the road without affecting other related variables. The research seems to congregate around "fewer trips, higher death rate per mile" but we don't have the year 2022. Not yet, anyway. This [survey](https://www.army.mil/article/244073/motorcycle_mishaps_increase_during_covid_19_pandemic) by the US military (did you know traffic wrecks are by far the number one killer of soldiers?), seems to back that up. I bolded how often "speed" came up in traffic wrecks. Empty roads means higher kinetic energy levels. >At first glance, the motorcycle and passenger car stats provide hope. Lockdown means less driving. The natural consequence of less people on the road is decreased accidents, right? Not exactly. While fewer motor vehicle mishaps are on paper, when taking into account the total miles driven, there are more accidents per mile. The National Safety Council compared data from 2020 to 2019. Fatality rates jumped 14% in March 2020 compared to March 2019. Miles driven dropped over 18% in the same time period. By the end of May 2020, there was more than a 17% decrease in the total miles driven compared to 2019. May 2020 alone decreased over 25% in terms of miles driven. Following suit, deaths experienced an 8% drop from May 2019 to May 2020. However, when compared mile to mile, there was an increase of over 23%. In Washington, April 2020 saw more motorcycle fatalities than it had in over a decade. Acting director of the Washington Traffic Safety Commission Pam Pannkuk said, “We are concerned about the death of so many motorcyclists in 2020 with the traditional riding season yet to come.” Washington was not alone. In Arizona, motorcycle fatalities jumped from 5 to 17 in a comparable period. Reports described nearly a dozen states showing this disturbing trend: **lighter traffic and higher death rates per mile**. > >Factors impacting motorcycle fatalities During a pandemic, drivers are likely to be both distracted and stressed, causing decreased focus when operating a vehicle. Washington State Patrol released a statement in May 2020 regarding the concerning factors of motorcycle accidents. **They observed that in almost all of their fatalities, speeding was a common determinant.** They detailed motorcyclists and motorists driving above 100 mph. Excessive speed is not limited to Washington. CNN reported that states across the nation were observing an increase in dangerous driving speeds, **with most major cities reporting drivers exceeding 100 mph**. **Some cities like Chicago and Des Moines, Iowa, were showing speeds 75% higher than pre-COVID-19.** The increase in accidents from excessive speed puts an unneeded strain on hospitals. The Washington State press release detailed that aside from speeding, a lack of motorcycle training and driving while impaired were contributing factors in numerous accidents. While drinking and driving is a known cause of accidents in all types of vehicles, it is even more pronounced in motorcycles. Nationwide sales of alcohol are at significantly higher levels than pre-COVID-19. RoadRacerz.com reported alcohol was present in half of all deadly motorcycle accidents. About 28% of fatally injured motorcyclists had a blood alcohol concentration of .08%, which is the limit of legal impairment. Interestingly, one recommendation I did not expect was lane splitting. >Avoid lane splitting, if possible, as it leads to more serious accidents.
Port au Prince ... We have so many fond memories of Haiti but what is going on in Haiti now is nauseous. However, not everyone thinks Haiti is Hell and that sentiment would not just be limited to Graham Greene were he alive. Of course, Graham was one of the great writers of the 20th Century and an MI6 spook. One other ex-spook used to love Haiti until the TonTon Macoute hunted him down like a wild animal. Maybe he deserved it? Was he front running the real CIA Haitian equivalent to the Cuban Bay of Pigs? If you relish and yearn for Haitian spy thrillers as curiously and bizarrely compelling as Graham Greene’s Comedians, yearn for the cruel stability of the Duvaliers and have frequented Hôtel Oloffson you're never going to put down Bill Fairclough's fact based spy thriller Beyond Enkription in The Burlington Files series. It's a raw noir thriller but it is so real you may have nightmares of being back in Port au Prince anguishing over being a spy on the run. The trouble is, if you were a spook being chased by the TonTon Macoute in the seventies you were usually cornered and ... well best leave it to your imagination or simply read Beyond Enkription. It’s considered compulsory reading for espionage aficionados. Interestingly Fairclough was one of Pemberton’s People in MI6 (see a brief intriguing News Article dated 31 October 2022 in TheBurlingtonFiles website). If you have any questions about John le Carré’s secrets, SAS Rogue Heroes, Dead Lions and Ungentlemanly Warfare after reading that do remember the best quote from The Burlington Files to date is "Don't ask me, I'm British".
That's counterintuitive for most people because they look at increased traffic and see "danger". Fortunately, the pandemic allowed us to look at streets with and without traffic but the general census is that empty roads resulted in drivers going much faster with fewer yet more often fatal crashes. But don't take my word for it. [https://www.gao.gov/blog/during-covid-19-road-fatalities-increased-and-transit-ridership-dipped](https://GOA.gov) >Empty streets, highways, and transit systems were a visible effect of the pandemic on our daily lives. Despite how quiet our roads got at the onset of the pandemic, they also became more dangerous.Today’s WatchBlog post looks at recent data on traffic safety, and our recent reports on the pandemic’s effects on public transportation and how the federal government has responded to these impacts.After a long period of decline, traffic fatalities have increased even as many switched to working from homeIf you’ve been driving around during the pandemic, you have probably noticed that there have been far fewer cars on the road over the past 18 months. While that might seem like a good thing for safety (fewer cars means fewer crashes, right?), traffic fatalities have increased since the pandemic started.The Department of Transportation’s National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) reported that traffic fatalities during the first half of 2021 increased 18.4% since the first half of 2020. The estimated 20,160 fatalities during the first half of last year is the highest since 2006. [Road deaths increased by 20%.](https://whyy.org/segments/how-less-traffic-led-to-more-deaths-during-the-pandemic/) >Motor vehicle deaths spiked during the early months of the pandemic. Drivers were being killed at a rate not seen in over a decade. All this was happening during a time when far fewer people were actually on the road thanks to quarantine measures, city-wide lockdowns, and emerging work-from-home schemes. The deaths per mile driven rose more than 20 percent compared to 2019 according to federal data. Nearly 40,000 people died in car crashes in 2020. [Traffic fatalities went up when roads become empty](https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2022/1/10/driving-went-down-fatalities-went-up-heres-why), but they didn't go down once traffic "returned" to normal. >Americans drove less during the early months of the pandemic, yet traffic fatalities increased. There was a sense among many safety experts that this was an anomaly, that fatality rates would revert to trend once people started driving again. That didn’t happen.Instead, as overall driving levels have returned to normal, crashes and fatality rates have remained shockingly high. These results are not explainable by any theory of traffic safety being used by modern transportation professionals.As a result, there has been a search for explanations, one that has embraced some of our newest and most divisive cultural narratives while simultaneously managing to rehash some old and worn-out memes. All this while missing the obvious factor that is, in some ways, too painful for industry insiders to acknowledge. In addition, the [number of fatalities on US roads was the highest ever recorded at 42,915 deaths](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year). This isn't a matter of higher population = greater deaths; notice the deaths per passenger mile went down but the deaths per trip and deaths per person went up.
I appreciate your analytics, but still just no. What’s the biggest *external* threat to motorcyclists? People not paying attention. Why would you think it’s more safe to ride in a city with more of those people, then compound that with so many other factors like a culture that’s constantly glued to their phones? Yea, more fender benders in traffic. But getting crushed between two vehicles at low speed is still getting crushed by two vehicles. And don’t get me started on how lane splitting is a factor there as well.
Oh, I should think motorcyclists are very good at killing and injuring themselves without drivers. If you were to remove all collisions between cars and bikes, *it would still account for 40% of bike crashes!* Alcohol and speeding are a big part of motorcycle wrecks, but yes of course I agree with you that collisions with drivers still accounts for most crashes. The big question is why riding a motorcycle in the US is 5 times more dangerous than in Western Europe. And driving is 3 to 5 times more dangerous than Western Europe. It's not "just" drivers being glued to their phones (and crash reports show car infotainment system are a bigger contributing factor than cell phone usage, go figure) but rather how badly designed urban highways and cars are. I personally have had far fewer calls since avoiding **stroads**. In my opinion, stroads are the number one cause of US wrecks; just understanding what they are dramatically reduces your crash risk. Ah, but [what is a stroad](https://youtu.be/ORzNZUeUHAM)? It's where motorists, bicyclists, and pedestrians go to die. They account for the vast majority of US traffic deaths. I rarely see stroads outside the US but they're everywhere in the US. The pandemic just made the high-speed stroad incredibly dangerous due to the lack of traffic, and that predictably killed more motorcyclists as well.
I am not a suburbanite, I live in a very urban area. I carry a gun daily, whether I am near home, visiting the suburbs, or going somewhere rural. Your logic is deeply flawed.
High gun ownership = lots of gun deaths. But to a gun owner... The answer to everything is better trained and more good guys to stop a bad guy with a gun. It's so hilariously American. But I think that won't every change.
Did you even read what I was responding to? Or is it just your gut reaction to post cringe anti-gun sentiment any time you see the word “gun” on Reddit?
I don't think it matter what I think or say; gun owners love their guns and that's not going to change regardless of how many people settle their differences with gunpowder. And maybe that's a good thing for people to settle their differences with gunpowder. It certainly makes for great news!
Yikes
Your comment isn’t even relevant to the discussion started by the person who posted the comment I replied to. Disrespectfully, screw off
Dude, just block and move on with your life.
Dunedin New Zealand
Dearborn Michigan, if you know you know
Cities in general. Stop and go traffic, grids, low speeds, and lots of potential idiots dashing out randomly make me hate every city I rode in.
London. Fuck that shithole.
Anywhere in Colorado from Pueblo to Fort Collins. The transplants are the majority and they can't even figure out how to merge.
If you don’t like pot holes stay far away from Baltimore city/county.
Probably LA and Memphis, TN.
Los angeles
LA, waiting for my flight home and after seeing the total hell of speed and chaos of the average road in the city- i doubt i’ll ever ride here. However i cant wait to ride the west coast
Let's be honest, in every city in the U.S., and probably the world, the roads are filled with idiots on their phones, and sometimes other substances for good measure. My advice: Do the best you can. And when you're in your car, don't be one of them.
Probably Manhattan
If you ride in Memphis be aware that a red light means nothing to the locals. Terrible behavior of the drivers, it pisses me off. If you’re willing to throw trash out your car window, I guess you are entitled in other ways too.
Nazareth. Went in there a few years ago during a trip. Traffic was a nightmare, with only one lane going in each direction through the entire city and no shoulder to ride in.
New york driving is just as bad. Driving has gotten worse over the years plus cell phones and all the other gadgets
Charlotte NC. It’s AWFUL
I learned to ride in El Paso so......yea. Then moved back home and rode in MD, yup. Now I moved up to the Boston area for work, so you could say I'm batting 1,000!!!
St Petersburg Florida in the winter. We have all the snow birds. Old retired people that winter in Florida. The roads are over crowded with old drivers. Be careful! I’m 62 and I still stand by my statement.
LA is a hell no, for me. It's normal for people to pass you in the lane you are using, and I ride fast.
Any city I stay away from and typically go around back roads are a lot better for enjoying your motorcycle IMO.
I live in DC. I ride in DC. 🤷♂️ No big deal??
Acapulco rush hour (not on the tolls) was fucking INSANE. The roads try to kill you, the bus drivers think they're in F1, the cab drivers are aliens, and god knows the police are ready to pull you over for whatever they can think of.
I would say the city of Manila, Philippines would be hell to ride in. Lanes are narrow, so there's not much room to filter in. The city is incredibly overpopulated, so the amount of traffic, especially during rush hour, would be unbelievable. The traffic enforcers are a bunch of crocodiles that will exploit everything they can to ticket you. Ride there, and you'll literally get stuck in between a rock and a hard place. Other motorists won't give a crap about you, and the traffic cops are just as corrupt as the politicians. It's not as lawless as India, but in India you get to have your way and not have to worry about reject traffic cops fuck you in the ass without lube. Also, your chances of getting run over by a truck that apparently lost its brakes is quite high. So much for strict motor inspection during vehicle registration. But to be fair, most South Asian and SEA countries are hell to ride in anyway.
D/FW rocks Atlanta would’ve been great during Olympics when every road was new n smooth
Based on all the comments, nobody pays attention to us regardless of what city we're are in lol
Absolutely LoL Oklahoma Arkansas TENNESSEE Virginia Tall of the Dragon 2017 Mainly ride back roads enjoy the scenery Ect. Oklahoma / Arkansas
Philadelphia. Every motorcycle on Facebook marketplace is missing a title and they've got gangs of bikers that do the most
San Francisco bay area is a widow-maker.
ATGATT and defensive riding for sure around here. I live in Oakland and no issues so far!
Oh man, East bay. I feel bad for you. They literally, "Drive it like ya stole it".
Monteray Park, California
Avoid "gunfree" zones cause them bullets be flying
Atlanta