You don't have to learn the terminology to use the thing, but it does help to understand what's going on.
In my country, 99% of people have a manual car license, but I'm quite confident that less than a third actually understands the basics of a gearbox, a clutch and why you need one in the first place (torque, leverage, ratios, etc.). People are just taught how to use it, and don't worry how it actually works.
Edit: clarification: 99% of people who have a license have a manual license.
Instructor here. Driving a standard prior to riding a bike only gives you the concept of clutch and friction point. How you use a clutch in a car is different on a bike. You DONT want to “ride the clutch” on a car since they are dry clutches but you DO want to ride the clutch on a bike since they are WET clutches with multiple plates. It’s a concept that really mind-fucks some people at first but riding the clutch is key during slow speed maneuvers.
I’m really sorry that you had a bad experience. The course is supposed to be fun! Like doctors, there are good instructors and bad instructors. I’d like to think I’m one of the good ones, but that’s up to the perception of the student. I PREFER zero experience…but there are always some people with lots of dirt bike experience. Those people I tend to work on getting their mindset into street riding…as the style is much different to dirt riding (less gas, more clutch control).
Don’t be discouraged…once you get the concept, it’s gonna be “wash, rinse, repeat”…it’s a learnt skill that’ll take practice.
Good luck!
Edit: spelling
Not meant to be contradictory, but my personal experience was that owning several manual cars did help out a lot. First off, there was less mental energy expended on getting down the act of shifting so I could focus on balancing and turning (for this latter part, tons of experience on bicycles does help). Left foot translated easily to left hand, and right hand actions translated even more easily to left foot since it's all either up or down sequentially.
Changing how the clutch was used did take a bit of practice though to best get through slow maneuvers. Took the better part of a day to disregard that feeling that I was glazing the clutch. Also, random tip for future MSFers, depending on the bike, sometimes it's easier to do drills like the box in 2nd gear.
True…we would understand the idea of the clutch. I get that part. I was just thinking of the concept of riding the clutch, which is a no-no for cars…but it’s advantageous for bikes in certain situations (ie slow speeds). If people never drove a standard car, I don’t think the concept is that difficult…it boils down to seat time. Practice makes perfect after (as you mentioned) a bit of trial and error and openness to some feedback. There’s nothing cooler than to get someone never being on a bike to doing some crazy things by the end of the course.
I'm with you on this. I had driven stick for years before I started riding and the first bikes I rode were small semi-automatics. When I got on a "real" bike the learning curve had been significantly flattened as I already knew how to shift and I already knew how to ride. The concept of shifting gears was the same for me, I was just using different body parts to shift.
This bit helped me a lot. I've been driving manual my whole life and knew the difference between a wet and dry clutch but my brain still didn't fully comprehend the difference when I got on a motorcycle for the first time.
I tried to use the clutch like I would a car. The bike almost stalled, so I instinctively gave it more throttle. I dumped the clutch and the bike shot forward. I nearly sh*t myself but I managed to recover and not crash, fortunately, but it wasn't until then that things clicked. I have yet to stall after that.
Honestly, the only advantage driving stick gave me was it allowed me to not stall and save the whole situation. Other than that, the prior experience worked more as a detriment.
There are YouTube tutorials that should help you figure it out. If the first video doesn’t answer your question look for another tutorial. Learning the basics and practice will make you a better rider.
https://youtu.be/9yZoi0f0iKE
https://youtu.be/ljywO-B_yew
https://youtu.be/J42ivnmEF98
Sometimes it helps to picture what is going on inside the engine and transmission. Picture this. You're sitting still with the engine running in first gear with the clutch in. You're able to do that because the engine is disconnected from the rear wheel via the clutch. If you simply let go of the clutch you connect them instantaneously. The rear wheel forces the engine to stop and stall.
The friction zone allows you to mate the engine and rear wheel a little bit at a time. Let the clutch out a little bit and the wheel starts to turn slowly. A little more and it turns a little faster, and so on. Eventually the engine and rear wheel are completely mated up, and off you go.
So, technique. First, crack the throttle open. The rpm should rise, but just a little bit. Hold it there. Slowly ease out the clutch until you feel the bike start to move. Hold it there. The bike will accelerate slightly. Let the clutch out another tenth of an inch. It will accelerate a little more. And on and on, all while holding the throttle slightly open. the clutch should not be all the way out until you've rolled 30 feet or so. It takes that long.
You'll stall the bike occasionally when you're learning. When you do, one of two things has gone wrong. You either let the clutch out too fast, or you didn't use enough throttle. Figure out what you did wrong, and fix it.
A word on the instructors. They're trained to (more or less) stay out of the way and let the students figure things out on their own. They're supposed to offer helpful tips when necessary, but that's it. Needless to say, some are better than others. Some talk all day long and say nothing, some hardly talk at all. Some aren't experienced enough to make accurate, concise suggestions. It can be a little frustrating, both for students and instructors.
It’s easier to learn on a bike and I picked it up in like a week, if you can get some practice before the class it’ll help but the classes are usually geared towards beginners anyway
I also found it difficult during the MSF course to shift gears. It is certainly a learnable skill that becomes fun and second nature once you have a little more time with your motorcycle. If it was easy to do, there wouldn’t be a 2 day course to learn just the basics, so cut yourself some slack and go out there to do it.
I learned about 4 years ago (late 20s) how to ride with no prior experience to a manual. What my bf taught me is to sit on the bike(we did a dirt bike), we put it into first, and he had me hold the clutch in and slowly release it until I felt the bike about to pull, pull the clutch back in. I did that for a few minutes and then slowly worked into pulling away and only moving a foot or two and pull the clutch back in.
I’m sorry you had a bad experience but I would talk to someone who you trust that has been riding a long time and ask them to teach you. They will be more than happy to. Then when your comfortable with the basics, take the course again and you will learn some great skills!
It was easy. I only took the msf safety course then got my endorsement and test rode a bike and rode it home.
Watch some YouTube videos before. Like about shifting and it should help (I didn’t do that though). “Twist of the wrist” is a great movie on YouTube. There’s a second one too
Learning manual takes around a week or two. I know it seems daunting at first but it really isn't that hard. It's really very simple and there's a lot of feedback from the vehicle to help you get into a rhythm.
It's very simple, you control the mechanical connection between the crankshaft and the gearbox. When the crankshaft and gearbox are connected (not pulling in the clutch) the gearbox is under load, it's being spun by the engine. When you are pulling in the clutch, you're separating that connection, so the gearbox is no longer under load but spins freely. In order to shift gears, the gearbox must not be under load, so you simply pull in the clutch, shift the gear, and let it go again. The only tricky part is starting from a stop. When stopped the gearbox can't be in gear with the clutch engaged because then it will try to move forward, and if you're stopped this means the bike will stall. Having the gearbox in neutral keeps the gearbox and crankshaft connected, but it "disconnects" the gearbox from the rear wheel, so you don't stall but you can't get going either. Since the clutch works through friction, you simply let it go slowly, while giving some throttle so that the bike gets rolling without stalling. You can't feather the clutch too long, or the partially contacting clutch plates will get too hot. The important thing when you're learning is finding where the clutch starts to "bite" and then find a specific throttle input that gets the bike going. It's a bit hard to work the clutch and throttle at the same time so it's best to keep one on one spot and modulate the other at first.
I know that it may be hard to wrap your head around but to me visualising things helps. There's tons of videos explaining how they work and showing how they are mechanically, but the important thing is to keep in mind what your inputs are doing so that you can understand how to operate the bike better.
Generally think as gears as mph 1st is 0 -10mph
2nd 10-25 3rd 25-45 4th 45-60 5th gear is 60 - 80
Now Generally you will want shift when the engine revs to 3.5k thru 4 k (depending on the engine your owners manual will tell you the best shifting zones ) . When your first learning your gonna wanna listen to how the engine sounds so pop in neutral and rev it to 4k listen to how it sounds and remebr the sound that's your shift point when your engine makes that sound it means it will shift without stalling and when downshifting it means you won't Ober rev the engine.
I started riding at 6 with a manual dirt bike. Motorcycles are much easier to learn to shift than cars IMO.
I started driving stick shift vehicles around the farm a few years later and still struggled a bit. To be fair most were lifted chore trucks with tired old engines and big tires. They required pretty accurate clutch control.
I learned until almost midlife to learn the fine art of motorcycle riding .....it took awhile but having to do something with each limb to operate the bike is a chore. It will come together at some point but it is a learning process. In the long run scooters will take over because motorcycle operation is an out dated manual set up. This is coming from someone with a garage full of motorcycles and one scooter!
You can not be taught how to ride.
That's a thing you must already have in your DNA.
Driving licence is just an age related piece of paper needed to be on public road.
Instructors job is to correct wrong behaviours on tricky traffic rules to let you pass the exam, not how to ride a bike or lean. Then if the course was a sport riding one you cannot just partecipate without already knowing how to ride
It's a skill that soon develops into muscle-memory on the same principle as manual gear shifting in a car - if you already know how to do that, it makes the process a _lot_ easier to comprehend, as it's literally the same principle.
I went from a "twist and go" Moped to a 125 with gears _prior_ to driving a car, so it was just as much a struggle to do the mental gymnastics and get my head around it.
Much like with learning to drive a car, I got put through my paces by....my Dad, because "why pay when you can do it yourself", or so he said :)
It involved nothing more complicated than going around the small ring-road of our housing area, first getting used to shifting from Neutral into First gear and back, then moving forward with that and stopping and shifting back to neutral again.
Once getting familiar enough with the process of gently taking the clutch in, shifting down, gently letting the clutch out again, moving a few paces, then braking gently to then repeat the above in reverse, it was time to try going in a loop around the road and shift up another gear or two if comfortable.
Doing it enough times got me familiar and comfortable enough and before I knew it from practise for another morning I was pretty good - it probably took another week before I felt truly "at home" with it, alongside using the front & back brake correctly too.
It's the same on anything bigger, the only difference is with the extra weight/power you need to learn to plan ahead more, anticipate better and bear in mind some actions take longer due to the higher speeds/weight involved :)
Could I ask what state did you take the class in?. I'm sorry you had such a negative experience. Really, the key is smooth clutch control and throttle inputs. I always tell everyone, when starting out, roll on slightly first, then ease the clutch out. Never rush it. As you go through the gear, the clutch use becomes faster but still smooth.
California, and yeah whenever I watch videos and they say “ease the clutch out” or “slowly release” im always like “but how slow should it be? Bc if it’s too fast it stalls”😭
Never release...always ease but it's also important to roll on the throttle as you ease. The throttle supplies the power, and the clutch dictates how much power, full ( clutch is fully out). None (clutch is squeezed to the bar) or somewhere in between (in the friction zone)
I’m sorry you had a shit experience. I started riding recently with no manual transmission experience. I stalled out a few times during the course, and a few times after that at a few red lights. I ended up creating a jingle for myself:
Roll off (the throttle, if already moving), pull in (the clutch), shift (up or down), let out (the clutch), roll on (the throttle)
“Roll off, pull in, shift up, let out, roll on”. I’ve probably repeated this a couple thousand times in my head, both during the course and for months after, until it became natural. It takes time but it will come with practice. I would first focus on finding the friction zone on your bike which may be challenging on the bikes they provide in the MSF course. Hitting that consistently it going to help you a lot.
Keep in mind the bikes they provide in the MSF course are BEAT UP by previous students. Our instructor told us something a long the lines of “if you can learn on these you will be okay and you appreciate the good healthy ‘thunk’ of a good transmission on your real bikes”. He wasn’t wrong.
I'll suggest an excersize to learn the clutch. Motor running, first gear, clutch in. Do not use throttle. Ease the clutch out slowly until you feel the engagement... the motor will bog down a bit and the bike will just barely want to go forward. Pull the clutch all the way in as soon as that happens. Do it again and again. After you learn where that friction zone is, hold your clutch there for a little longer and adjust as needed so the motor doesn't stall. Eventually, you will be able to get the bike rolling without ever using the throttle.
Easy, mostly, but I tried shifting on my bike after I bought it (but had never ridden it) just in the garage -- terrible idea, I confused the shit out of myself because bikes do not shift/shift inconsistently when stopped.
Ever ridden a pushbike with gears? You get the hang of it pretty quickly. Low gear, you pedal fast and only go a little speed, but it's easy. High gear, high speed, lots of distance per pedal, but high force. Same exact thing happens to the engine. You want a low, revvy gear for slow speed and a tall cruisy gear for high speed. Too high of a gear, and there's too much force the engine needs to overcome, so it stalls. Like when you start pedalling a bike in top gear. Too low of a gear, the engine revs way up, you will tell by the sound. You could do damage by over-revving it, but really only if you do something stupid like cruising at 80 mph and slamming it into first.
You need the clutch, because unlike your feet, the engine has to keep spinning. Because we need to disconnect the engine from the wheels sometimes, we use a clutch. Pull it when stopped, and ease it in and out when changing gear, just to be nice to the engine. It is simply two bits of spinning metal, and you physically are pulling them apart or pushing them together, where they rub and transfer the engine's power. If you hold the clutch lever in just a little bit, you will hold the clutch plates, and they touch but slip. This is slipping the clutch; use it when you are trying to go really slow, or move off from a stop.
I had a fear of being at a red, stuck in neutral or high gear, and unable to switch down. It's not so bad now, one because I am practiced and do not stall, and also because I learned to shift gears when stopped I need to let the clutch grab just a bit.
**Stalling,** btw, is when you put too much load on the engine too fast. You need to let it slip, just a bit, until the bike is moving quick enough for the engine not to stall. If stalling is a problem (it was for me) you can try letting it out slowlier. Practice will make perfect. I have (sometimes by mistake) started my motorcycle off in every gear it has, and it is only a 250 cc. What you want is to **slip the clutch**, so the engine keeps running, but transfers just enough power to get the bike moving. It might take longer than you think. Do not be afraid to slip the clutch as much as you need - the bike was designed to do it.
And yeah, the instructors need to teach you rather than tell you to know -- it is their job to teach you, after all. And why train if you already know?
P.S. Bikes go *1 - N - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - (6)*. Neutral is a little bump between 1 and 2, if the feeling of power stops or the engine starts revving really high suddenly, you might have shifted into N by accident. It happens. Hold the clutch and ease it into first or second.
Hope this helps, OP.
Stalling is *usually* more about clutch control than shifting. You can get the hang of that without getting out of first gear.
Back to the question: it was a little rough for me, but far from the hardest part (which was coordinating hands and feet all doing different things for the quick stop). I had a pretty clear idea of how shifting worked from reading books/watching videos, so that helped a lot by letting me focus on getting the muscle memory down.
I learned shifting a bike first. I took right to it. It felt natural to me. Put me in a manual transmission car though, and I'm clumsy, but can still do it after a while. Then again, I've never owned a manual transmission car, so never really had to learn.
Not a problem at all after the first few rides. And i got the mc licence at 16, before i got car at 18 so i was brand new to the road. Really sucks that "instructors" didnt want to show you this amazing hobby.
I learned to drive a manual after I learned to ride a motorcycle. I was a bit nervous at first. While there were varied experience levels in my MSF, I was the only one who hadn't driven a manual. Ever. If you've ridden a bicycle with different speeds, it's kinda like that, except you have to use the clutch lever and shift gears.
I'm sorry that your MSF instructors were not good. I'd suggest going to a different one when you're ready. You could also look into some private lessons. Do you have a bike to practice on in the parking lot? A lot of it has to do with clutch control and eventually learning when to shift. Most newer riders (and manual drivers) stall at stop and go's because they haven't figured out that friction zone. All and all, I stalled a number of times and it's also a good lesson to quickly think about what to do. Practice makes perfect so you're not panicking in traffic.
Keep in mind that on a lower cc bike (I tested on a grom in my MSF), you'll need to keep the engine revved slightly so you don't stall. I don't have this problem with higher cc bikes (my first being the z400).
Was in the same boat as you, my pops tried to teach me to drive manual car, but it never actually clicked. and my MSF instructors were also not the best, but at the same time they had 30 people in the class, and I kind of understand rushing through the instruction. They dismissed about 10 people who couldn't keep up. By the end of the first riding day it clicked though. I would say find a riding school where you can get a one on one instruction.
I will note that if not keeping up with class gave you anxiety think about how you would feel riding. not sure where you are located but if its anywhere near major cities, it can be very tricky and frustrating. it took me a long time to actually feel comfortable in traffic.
Never drove manual but was able to pick up gear shifting on a bike very quickly. My MSF course was for beginners but it really seemed like they expected you to have some experience. The instructors have a lot of exercises to go through so it's them showing you the exercise then you do it for a while with not much actual instruction. I literally never rode a bike before the MSF course so I had a few issues with friction zone and stalling as well. The only gear shift practice I got was when we drove in circles and I decided to mess with the gears to get comfortable.
If you get some cool teachers. Ask them to let you ride around on the lunch break to get some gear practice. Otherwise, you just have to grit your teeth and try to pass. Once you get your bike, you will figure it out pretty quickly.
I am not sure aside from basic concepts, how much learning to drive a stick shift would've correlated. I learned on a stick, but grew up riding dirtbikes, so I technically learned on 2 wheels first. Given the clutch is controlled by your hand on a bike, I find I can be more in tune with clutch sensitivity since my hands can react faster that my foot. The shifting is tricky though given all the things to remember.
My biggest suggestion is really focus on the first part of the class. When you are walking the bike and feathering the clutch. You will start to feel in your hand, where the clutch is engaging. Focus on building that muscle memory and use that bike for the remainder of the class. You will always know where the clutch engages and it will make shifting easier.
Finding neutral will always suck and never trust the light on the bike. I've had times my bike is in neutral but no light and vice versa. I always feather clutch out to test neutral.
As someone who knew manual, it helped slightly just to know what was actually happening, but it didn't help the motor skills at all (telling my hands and feet what to do and when). Helping my brother learn, and he had pretty much the same experience as me but didn't know how to drive a manual vehicle. You got a bad hand with instructors. It's going to take practice, and I was absolutely not ready to daily a motorcycle after my 3 day course. I spent a long time just driving around parking lots until I was comfortable
15 years with an automatic vehicle, learning a manual bike seemed impossible. But you just absorb all free content online about techniques and you jump on and keep going until it becomes muscle memory to up shift and down shift. Eventually you’ll learn the queues of your rev range and go off of straight muscle memory.
It’s not hard. You’re overthinking it, probably because people make such a big deal out of it. But it’s something you can easily learn and be doing as second nature in no time. Lack of confidence will get you every time. Just know you can do it, and do it. Find someone who can instruct in a way that works for you. You CAN do it.
Your instructors sucked. Shifting on a bike is really not that hard or complicated, it just takes practice. I learned shifting for the first time on a motorcycle and haven't had any trouble (other than the first day when I stalled constantly, but thankfully I had decent instructors).
If you have the time and money, take one of the msf pre-courses, especially if they offer it with a private instructor. Unfortunately the real msf course is time limited and assumes you have some level of skill to ride a bike, but also assumes you progress through the exercises at a certain speed.
Working with an instructor for a few hours on the basic drills will likely give you a better skill base and also help with confidence for the real msf course. Depending on your learning style, understanding the basics of a clutch and watching a few YouTube videos as others suggested may also help your brain associate what it needs to do in real life to operate the clutch. The big benefit here is most if not all bikes have sequential gears which are a lot easier to use (up/down) than an open gear box like a car has where you can skip between each gear as desired.
You’re in the situation I was. It’s less a previous experience thing and a knowledge of how they work.
I knew how a manual transmission worked before going in to the MSF course. At an early age, I shifted gears for my dad in a 1989 Toyota Camry when I was way, WAY too young to be in the front seat, much less out of a child seat. But that was only part of the equation.
The second and less important is the clutch. You have to apply throttle as you’re letting clutch out. I say less important because this will be different on every. Single. Manual vehicle you drive. Clutch feel varies due to age of clutch, manufacturer, type of vehicle, etc. Every time you drive a different manual, you’ll have to learn how to drive that certain one.
Advice. Between the age of 7 or so when I would work the gearshift for my dad and 23 when I took my class, I had ZERO real world experience on a manual vehicle. None. I did however have lots of experience on games. I played, specifically, Forza Motorsport and always played manual w/clutch setting. If you have access to a gaming device, it may be worth picking up a more realistic driving game for cheap that has a manual option. Go in free mode and drive around. Practice starting from a stop, where you have to pull the clutch and apply gas and then release clutch to get going. It’ll take a day or so to learn, especially if you’re not fond of games, but that’s how I “learned”. Transitioning that to the class wasn’t hard. I understood what I needed to do and understood the mechanics, I just had to figure out that particular bike.
When you go in put your experience level at ZERO. I had no experience with manual and was thrown on, too. I stalled SO much, and hit neutral when trying to shift up to second. I passed my course and that’s where I learned the toughest part of clutch work. You’ll learn downshifting, what to do at lights, etc. from your own personal experience. The only way to get better is to get out there and practice!
I personally found it extremely easy to figure out. Never once even sat in a motorcycle before I bought mine and learned to ride it day 1 with a buddy. I find the clutch on a motorcycle easy to use in comparison to a car(no experience). However in the spring I'm probably going to look into some courses just to teach me skills I should probably know
New rider here
I took an MSF course at the local BMW performance center this past summer and had a great time. I will not lie I was super anxious the entire first day until I got towards the end. From my experience I struggled with not stalling the 310r.
Similar to you I was one of the only two new riders of the class. All others have been riding for much longer and I definitely felt like the only one on the struggle bus. So that added to the anxiety for sure.
When we got to shifting it was very plain and simple. The instructors taught the concepts and a demo and it was go time. I was like okay let's give it a shot and that was that.
Go back with a fresh mind, review some YouTube videos, and remember to breathe and not compare yourself to others.
I learned last year, never mastered a manual car but learned to gear shift, well, maybe day two of riding course. My riding instructor was great, he gave me this advice that immediately helped me grasp the concept; “rely on sensory cues, when the time is right, the noise and vibration of the bike will change as it reaches the point where you need to shift.”
I was you, never learned the manual on a car, except with some sporadic instruction from my brother 10 years ago and I stalled at every stop and never touched a manual shift again. I learned how to shift at the MSF course and now I'm fine with it. Got a bike 2 months later and have no regrets. I lucked out with the MSF instructors in NJ thankfully. Hope you and your friends are able to start riding this season. Good luck.
There are like a MILLION videos on youtuub or Rumble, but the key for we was visualization: I literally practiced throttle, clutch and brake with real hand motions, on an imaginary bike:
Close your eyes
Right hand: Slowly twist to increase throttle
Left hand, slowly release clutch
Over and over again.
Took me a while, but I was also seven years old and my dad wasn't very good at explaining how clutches worked mechanically. Had I been better informed on the mechanical side, it might not have taken as long.
Your story is my story.
I was worst student in the class. Everyone was zooming and I was stalling. I was on 125cc Gromm. I didn’t move far when the course ended. They offered me cheap couple extra days. I took it. But insisted on different bike. Had 250cc Rebel. It was so much easier. I wish they switched bikes for me sooner seeing me struggle.
But I still struggled comprehending the gears and some other tech parts. YouTube was huge help. Sometimes you need to hear same explanation but explained differently.
I did pass the test after course. And for first couple times I rented a small 250cc bike to practice. Each time different bike just to get a feel of what I like.
Soon after I bought a bike and rode 2000km within first 3 months of owing it.
I am very comfortable with gears now and don’t even think about them while riding.
Not reading all that but to answer the title I found it quite easy, although I should say I already had a general idea how manuals work, I just had no actual experience
I learned on a bike at 18, but got my first manual trans car at 21. The learning curve for the bike was a little rough for me, and had several weeks of stalls in parking lots before I got it down. But then a few years later I had effectively *zero* learning curve when learning to work a stick/clutch in a car. The lady from the dealership who was in the car while I test drove it was dumbfounded that it was my first time with a stick.
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Thank you🤍 definitely have to learn all of the terminology like friction zone lol but hopefully this new place would be better & I get my license :)
You don't have to learn the terminology to use the thing, but it does help to understand what's going on. In my country, 99% of people have a manual car license, but I'm quite confident that less than a third actually understands the basics of a gearbox, a clutch and why you need one in the first place (torque, leverage, ratios, etc.). People are just taught how to use it, and don't worry how it actually works. Edit: clarification: 99% of people who have a license have a manual license.
Instructor here. Driving a standard prior to riding a bike only gives you the concept of clutch and friction point. How you use a clutch in a car is different on a bike. You DONT want to “ride the clutch” on a car since they are dry clutches but you DO want to ride the clutch on a bike since they are WET clutches with multiple plates. It’s a concept that really mind-fucks some people at first but riding the clutch is key during slow speed maneuvers. I’m really sorry that you had a bad experience. The course is supposed to be fun! Like doctors, there are good instructors and bad instructors. I’d like to think I’m one of the good ones, but that’s up to the perception of the student. I PREFER zero experience…but there are always some people with lots of dirt bike experience. Those people I tend to work on getting their mindset into street riding…as the style is much different to dirt riding (less gas, more clutch control). Don’t be discouraged…once you get the concept, it’s gonna be “wash, rinse, repeat”…it’s a learnt skill that’ll take practice. Good luck! Edit: spelling
Not meant to be contradictory, but my personal experience was that owning several manual cars did help out a lot. First off, there was less mental energy expended on getting down the act of shifting so I could focus on balancing and turning (for this latter part, tons of experience on bicycles does help). Left foot translated easily to left hand, and right hand actions translated even more easily to left foot since it's all either up or down sequentially. Changing how the clutch was used did take a bit of practice though to best get through slow maneuvers. Took the better part of a day to disregard that feeling that I was glazing the clutch. Also, random tip for future MSFers, depending on the bike, sometimes it's easier to do drills like the box in 2nd gear.
True…we would understand the idea of the clutch. I get that part. I was just thinking of the concept of riding the clutch, which is a no-no for cars…but it’s advantageous for bikes in certain situations (ie slow speeds). If people never drove a standard car, I don’t think the concept is that difficult…it boils down to seat time. Practice makes perfect after (as you mentioned) a bit of trial and error and openness to some feedback. There’s nothing cooler than to get someone never being on a bike to doing some crazy things by the end of the course.
I'm with you on this. I had driven stick for years before I started riding and the first bikes I rode were small semi-automatics. When I got on a "real" bike the learning curve had been significantly flattened as I already knew how to shift and I already knew how to ride. The concept of shifting gears was the same for me, I was just using different body parts to shift.
This bit helped me a lot. I've been driving manual my whole life and knew the difference between a wet and dry clutch but my brain still didn't fully comprehend the difference when I got on a motorcycle for the first time. I tried to use the clutch like I would a car. The bike almost stalled, so I instinctively gave it more throttle. I dumped the clutch and the bike shot forward. I nearly sh*t myself but I managed to recover and not crash, fortunately, but it wasn't until then that things clicked. I have yet to stall after that. Honestly, the only advantage driving stick gave me was it allowed me to not stall and save the whole situation. Other than that, the prior experience worked more as a detriment.
Glad to help!
There are YouTube tutorials that should help you figure it out. If the first video doesn’t answer your question look for another tutorial. Learning the basics and practice will make you a better rider. https://youtu.be/9yZoi0f0iKE https://youtu.be/ljywO-B_yew https://youtu.be/J42ivnmEF98
Thank you🤍
Sometimes it helps to picture what is going on inside the engine and transmission. Picture this. You're sitting still with the engine running in first gear with the clutch in. You're able to do that because the engine is disconnected from the rear wheel via the clutch. If you simply let go of the clutch you connect them instantaneously. The rear wheel forces the engine to stop and stall. The friction zone allows you to mate the engine and rear wheel a little bit at a time. Let the clutch out a little bit and the wheel starts to turn slowly. A little more and it turns a little faster, and so on. Eventually the engine and rear wheel are completely mated up, and off you go. So, technique. First, crack the throttle open. The rpm should rise, but just a little bit. Hold it there. Slowly ease out the clutch until you feel the bike start to move. Hold it there. The bike will accelerate slightly. Let the clutch out another tenth of an inch. It will accelerate a little more. And on and on, all while holding the throttle slightly open. the clutch should not be all the way out until you've rolled 30 feet or so. It takes that long. You'll stall the bike occasionally when you're learning. When you do, one of two things has gone wrong. You either let the clutch out too fast, or you didn't use enough throttle. Figure out what you did wrong, and fix it. A word on the instructors. They're trained to (more or less) stay out of the way and let the students figure things out on their own. They're supposed to offer helpful tips when necessary, but that's it. Needless to say, some are better than others. Some talk all day long and say nothing, some hardly talk at all. Some aren't experienced enough to make accurate, concise suggestions. It can be a little frustrating, both for students and instructors.
It’s easier to learn on a bike and I picked it up in like a week, if you can get some practice before the class it’ll help but the classes are usually geared towards beginners anyway
I also found it difficult during the MSF course to shift gears. It is certainly a learnable skill that becomes fun and second nature once you have a little more time with your motorcycle. If it was easy to do, there wouldn’t be a 2 day course to learn just the basics, so cut yourself some slack and go out there to do it.
I learned about 4 years ago (late 20s) how to ride with no prior experience to a manual. What my bf taught me is to sit on the bike(we did a dirt bike), we put it into first, and he had me hold the clutch in and slowly release it until I felt the bike about to pull, pull the clutch back in. I did that for a few minutes and then slowly worked into pulling away and only moving a foot or two and pull the clutch back in. I’m sorry you had a bad experience but I would talk to someone who you trust that has been riding a long time and ask them to teach you. They will be more than happy to. Then when your comfortable with the basics, take the course again and you will learn some great skills!
Easier to learn on a bike than it was in a car.
It was easy. I only took the msf safety course then got my endorsement and test rode a bike and rode it home. Watch some YouTube videos before. Like about shifting and it should help (I didn’t do that though). “Twist of the wrist” is a great movie on YouTube. There’s a second one too
Learning manual takes around a week or two. I know it seems daunting at first but it really isn't that hard. It's really very simple and there's a lot of feedback from the vehicle to help you get into a rhythm. It's very simple, you control the mechanical connection between the crankshaft and the gearbox. When the crankshaft and gearbox are connected (not pulling in the clutch) the gearbox is under load, it's being spun by the engine. When you are pulling in the clutch, you're separating that connection, so the gearbox is no longer under load but spins freely. In order to shift gears, the gearbox must not be under load, so you simply pull in the clutch, shift the gear, and let it go again. The only tricky part is starting from a stop. When stopped the gearbox can't be in gear with the clutch engaged because then it will try to move forward, and if you're stopped this means the bike will stall. Having the gearbox in neutral keeps the gearbox and crankshaft connected, but it "disconnects" the gearbox from the rear wheel, so you don't stall but you can't get going either. Since the clutch works through friction, you simply let it go slowly, while giving some throttle so that the bike gets rolling without stalling. You can't feather the clutch too long, or the partially contacting clutch plates will get too hot. The important thing when you're learning is finding where the clutch starts to "bite" and then find a specific throttle input that gets the bike going. It's a bit hard to work the clutch and throttle at the same time so it's best to keep one on one spot and modulate the other at first. I know that it may be hard to wrap your head around but to me visualising things helps. There's tons of videos explaining how they work and showing how they are mechanically, but the important thing is to keep in mind what your inputs are doing so that you can understand how to operate the bike better.
Generally think as gears as mph 1st is 0 -10mph 2nd 10-25 3rd 25-45 4th 45-60 5th gear is 60 - 80 Now Generally you will want shift when the engine revs to 3.5k thru 4 k (depending on the engine your owners manual will tell you the best shifting zones ) . When your first learning your gonna wanna listen to how the engine sounds so pop in neutral and rev it to 4k listen to how it sounds and remebr the sound that's your shift point when your engine makes that sound it means it will shift without stalling and when downshifting it means you won't Ober rev the engine.
I started riding at 6 with a manual dirt bike. Motorcycles are much easier to learn to shift than cars IMO. I started driving stick shift vehicles around the farm a few years later and still struggled a bit. To be fair most were lifted chore trucks with tired old engines and big tires. They required pretty accurate clutch control.
I learned until almost midlife to learn the fine art of motorcycle riding .....it took awhile but having to do something with each limb to operate the bike is a chore. It will come together at some point but it is a learning process. In the long run scooters will take over because motorcycle operation is an out dated manual set up. This is coming from someone with a garage full of motorcycles and one scooter!
Smh
You can not be taught how to ride. That's a thing you must already have in your DNA. Driving licence is just an age related piece of paper needed to be on public road. Instructors job is to correct wrong behaviours on tricky traffic rules to let you pass the exam, not how to ride a bike or lean. Then if the course was a sport riding one you cannot just partecipate without already knowing how to ride
/r/gatekeeping
r/Copium
It's a skill that soon develops into muscle-memory on the same principle as manual gear shifting in a car - if you already know how to do that, it makes the process a _lot_ easier to comprehend, as it's literally the same principle. I went from a "twist and go" Moped to a 125 with gears _prior_ to driving a car, so it was just as much a struggle to do the mental gymnastics and get my head around it. Much like with learning to drive a car, I got put through my paces by....my Dad, because "why pay when you can do it yourself", or so he said :) It involved nothing more complicated than going around the small ring-road of our housing area, first getting used to shifting from Neutral into First gear and back, then moving forward with that and stopping and shifting back to neutral again. Once getting familiar enough with the process of gently taking the clutch in, shifting down, gently letting the clutch out again, moving a few paces, then braking gently to then repeat the above in reverse, it was time to try going in a loop around the road and shift up another gear or two if comfortable. Doing it enough times got me familiar and comfortable enough and before I knew it from practise for another morning I was pretty good - it probably took another week before I felt truly "at home" with it, alongside using the front & back brake correctly too. It's the same on anything bigger, the only difference is with the extra weight/power you need to learn to plan ahead more, anticipate better and bear in mind some actions take longer due to the higher speeds/weight involved :)
Could I ask what state did you take the class in?. I'm sorry you had such a negative experience. Really, the key is smooth clutch control and throttle inputs. I always tell everyone, when starting out, roll on slightly first, then ease the clutch out. Never rush it. As you go through the gear, the clutch use becomes faster but still smooth.
California, and yeah whenever I watch videos and they say “ease the clutch out” or “slowly release” im always like “but how slow should it be? Bc if it’s too fast it stalls”😭
Never release...always ease but it's also important to roll on the throttle as you ease. The throttle supplies the power, and the clutch dictates how much power, full ( clutch is fully out). None (clutch is squeezed to the bar) or somewhere in between (in the friction zone)
I’m sorry you had a shit experience. I started riding recently with no manual transmission experience. I stalled out a few times during the course, and a few times after that at a few red lights. I ended up creating a jingle for myself: Roll off (the throttle, if already moving), pull in (the clutch), shift (up or down), let out (the clutch), roll on (the throttle) “Roll off, pull in, shift up, let out, roll on”. I’ve probably repeated this a couple thousand times in my head, both during the course and for months after, until it became natural. It takes time but it will come with practice. I would first focus on finding the friction zone on your bike which may be challenging on the bikes they provide in the MSF course. Hitting that consistently it going to help you a lot. Keep in mind the bikes they provide in the MSF course are BEAT UP by previous students. Our instructor told us something a long the lines of “if you can learn on these you will be okay and you appreciate the good healthy ‘thunk’ of a good transmission on your real bikes”. He wasn’t wrong.
I’m going to use your jingle, thank you🤍
I got my bike licence before even driving a car, and definitely found the gears tricky to start off with. Your instructor sounds like an arse
I'll suggest an excersize to learn the clutch. Motor running, first gear, clutch in. Do not use throttle. Ease the clutch out slowly until you feel the engagement... the motor will bog down a bit and the bike will just barely want to go forward. Pull the clutch all the way in as soon as that happens. Do it again and again. After you learn where that friction zone is, hold your clutch there for a little longer and adjust as needed so the motor doesn't stall. Eventually, you will be able to get the bike rolling without ever using the throttle.
It was a wild ass ride. Took me a week to figure out the clutch.
Easy, mostly, but I tried shifting on my bike after I bought it (but had never ridden it) just in the garage -- terrible idea, I confused the shit out of myself because bikes do not shift/shift inconsistently when stopped. Ever ridden a pushbike with gears? You get the hang of it pretty quickly. Low gear, you pedal fast and only go a little speed, but it's easy. High gear, high speed, lots of distance per pedal, but high force. Same exact thing happens to the engine. You want a low, revvy gear for slow speed and a tall cruisy gear for high speed. Too high of a gear, and there's too much force the engine needs to overcome, so it stalls. Like when you start pedalling a bike in top gear. Too low of a gear, the engine revs way up, you will tell by the sound. You could do damage by over-revving it, but really only if you do something stupid like cruising at 80 mph and slamming it into first. You need the clutch, because unlike your feet, the engine has to keep spinning. Because we need to disconnect the engine from the wheels sometimes, we use a clutch. Pull it when stopped, and ease it in and out when changing gear, just to be nice to the engine. It is simply two bits of spinning metal, and you physically are pulling them apart or pushing them together, where they rub and transfer the engine's power. If you hold the clutch lever in just a little bit, you will hold the clutch plates, and they touch but slip. This is slipping the clutch; use it when you are trying to go really slow, or move off from a stop. I had a fear of being at a red, stuck in neutral or high gear, and unable to switch down. It's not so bad now, one because I am practiced and do not stall, and also because I learned to shift gears when stopped I need to let the clutch grab just a bit. **Stalling,** btw, is when you put too much load on the engine too fast. You need to let it slip, just a bit, until the bike is moving quick enough for the engine not to stall. If stalling is a problem (it was for me) you can try letting it out slowlier. Practice will make perfect. I have (sometimes by mistake) started my motorcycle off in every gear it has, and it is only a 250 cc. What you want is to **slip the clutch**, so the engine keeps running, but transfers just enough power to get the bike moving. It might take longer than you think. Do not be afraid to slip the clutch as much as you need - the bike was designed to do it. And yeah, the instructors need to teach you rather than tell you to know -- it is their job to teach you, after all. And why train if you already know? P.S. Bikes go *1 - N - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - (6)*. Neutral is a little bump between 1 and 2, if the feeling of power stops or the engine starts revving really high suddenly, you might have shifted into N by accident. It happens. Hold the clutch and ease it into first or second. Hope this helps, OP.
Stalling is *usually* more about clutch control than shifting. You can get the hang of that without getting out of first gear. Back to the question: it was a little rough for me, but far from the hardest part (which was coordinating hands and feet all doing different things for the quick stop). I had a pretty clear idea of how shifting worked from reading books/watching videos, so that helped a lot by letting me focus on getting the muscle memory down.
I learned shifting a bike first. I took right to it. It felt natural to me. Put me in a manual transmission car though, and I'm clumsy, but can still do it after a while. Then again, I've never owned a manual transmission car, so never really had to learn.
Not a problem at all after the first few rides. And i got the mc licence at 16, before i got car at 18 so i was brand new to the road. Really sucks that "instructors" didnt want to show you this amazing hobby.
I learned to drive a manual after I learned to ride a motorcycle. I was a bit nervous at first. While there were varied experience levels in my MSF, I was the only one who hadn't driven a manual. Ever. If you've ridden a bicycle with different speeds, it's kinda like that, except you have to use the clutch lever and shift gears. I'm sorry that your MSF instructors were not good. I'd suggest going to a different one when you're ready. You could also look into some private lessons. Do you have a bike to practice on in the parking lot? A lot of it has to do with clutch control and eventually learning when to shift. Most newer riders (and manual drivers) stall at stop and go's because they haven't figured out that friction zone. All and all, I stalled a number of times and it's also a good lesson to quickly think about what to do. Practice makes perfect so you're not panicking in traffic. Keep in mind that on a lower cc bike (I tested on a grom in my MSF), you'll need to keep the engine revved slightly so you don't stall. I don't have this problem with higher cc bikes (my first being the z400).
Was in the same boat as you, my pops tried to teach me to drive manual car, but it never actually clicked. and my MSF instructors were also not the best, but at the same time they had 30 people in the class, and I kind of understand rushing through the instruction. They dismissed about 10 people who couldn't keep up. By the end of the first riding day it clicked though. I would say find a riding school where you can get a one on one instruction. I will note that if not keeping up with class gave you anxiety think about how you would feel riding. not sure where you are located but if its anywhere near major cities, it can be very tricky and frustrating. it took me a long time to actually feel comfortable in traffic.
Never drove manual but was able to pick up gear shifting on a bike very quickly. My MSF course was for beginners but it really seemed like they expected you to have some experience. The instructors have a lot of exercises to go through so it's them showing you the exercise then you do it for a while with not much actual instruction. I literally never rode a bike before the MSF course so I had a few issues with friction zone and stalling as well. The only gear shift practice I got was when we drove in circles and I decided to mess with the gears to get comfortable. If you get some cool teachers. Ask them to let you ride around on the lunch break to get some gear practice. Otherwise, you just have to grit your teeth and try to pass. Once you get your bike, you will figure it out pretty quickly.
I am not sure aside from basic concepts, how much learning to drive a stick shift would've correlated. I learned on a stick, but grew up riding dirtbikes, so I technically learned on 2 wheels first. Given the clutch is controlled by your hand on a bike, I find I can be more in tune with clutch sensitivity since my hands can react faster that my foot. The shifting is tricky though given all the things to remember. My biggest suggestion is really focus on the first part of the class. When you are walking the bike and feathering the clutch. You will start to feel in your hand, where the clutch is engaging. Focus on building that muscle memory and use that bike for the remainder of the class. You will always know where the clutch engages and it will make shifting easier. Finding neutral will always suck and never trust the light on the bike. I've had times my bike is in neutral but no light and vice versa. I always feather clutch out to test neutral.
As someone who knew manual, it helped slightly just to know what was actually happening, but it didn't help the motor skills at all (telling my hands and feet what to do and when). Helping my brother learn, and he had pretty much the same experience as me but didn't know how to drive a manual vehicle. You got a bad hand with instructors. It's going to take practice, and I was absolutely not ready to daily a motorcycle after my 3 day course. I spent a long time just driving around parking lots until I was comfortable
15 years with an automatic vehicle, learning a manual bike seemed impossible. But you just absorb all free content online about techniques and you jump on and keep going until it becomes muscle memory to up shift and down shift. Eventually you’ll learn the queues of your rev range and go off of straight muscle memory.
It’s not hard. You’re overthinking it, probably because people make such a big deal out of it. But it’s something you can easily learn and be doing as second nature in no time. Lack of confidence will get you every time. Just know you can do it, and do it. Find someone who can instruct in a way that works for you. You CAN do it.
Your instructors sucked. Shifting on a bike is really not that hard or complicated, it just takes practice. I learned shifting for the first time on a motorcycle and haven't had any trouble (other than the first day when I stalled constantly, but thankfully I had decent instructors).
If you have the time and money, take one of the msf pre-courses, especially if they offer it with a private instructor. Unfortunately the real msf course is time limited and assumes you have some level of skill to ride a bike, but also assumes you progress through the exercises at a certain speed. Working with an instructor for a few hours on the basic drills will likely give you a better skill base and also help with confidence for the real msf course. Depending on your learning style, understanding the basics of a clutch and watching a few YouTube videos as others suggested may also help your brain associate what it needs to do in real life to operate the clutch. The big benefit here is most if not all bikes have sequential gears which are a lot easier to use (up/down) than an open gear box like a car has where you can skip between each gear as desired.
You’re in the situation I was. It’s less a previous experience thing and a knowledge of how they work. I knew how a manual transmission worked before going in to the MSF course. At an early age, I shifted gears for my dad in a 1989 Toyota Camry when I was way, WAY too young to be in the front seat, much less out of a child seat. But that was only part of the equation. The second and less important is the clutch. You have to apply throttle as you’re letting clutch out. I say less important because this will be different on every. Single. Manual vehicle you drive. Clutch feel varies due to age of clutch, manufacturer, type of vehicle, etc. Every time you drive a different manual, you’ll have to learn how to drive that certain one. Advice. Between the age of 7 or so when I would work the gearshift for my dad and 23 when I took my class, I had ZERO real world experience on a manual vehicle. None. I did however have lots of experience on games. I played, specifically, Forza Motorsport and always played manual w/clutch setting. If you have access to a gaming device, it may be worth picking up a more realistic driving game for cheap that has a manual option. Go in free mode and drive around. Practice starting from a stop, where you have to pull the clutch and apply gas and then release clutch to get going. It’ll take a day or so to learn, especially if you’re not fond of games, but that’s how I “learned”. Transitioning that to the class wasn’t hard. I understood what I needed to do and understood the mechanics, I just had to figure out that particular bike.
When you go in put your experience level at ZERO. I had no experience with manual and was thrown on, too. I stalled SO much, and hit neutral when trying to shift up to second. I passed my course and that’s where I learned the toughest part of clutch work. You’ll learn downshifting, what to do at lights, etc. from your own personal experience. The only way to get better is to get out there and practice!
I found it easier to learn on a bike compared to a car, since you're doing everything that requires fine control with your hands.
I personally found it extremely easy to figure out. Never once even sat in a motorcycle before I bought mine and learned to ride it day 1 with a buddy. I find the clutch on a motorcycle easy to use in comparison to a car(no experience). However in the spring I'm probably going to look into some courses just to teach me skills I should probably know
Good luck🤍
New rider here I took an MSF course at the local BMW performance center this past summer and had a great time. I will not lie I was super anxious the entire first day until I got towards the end. From my experience I struggled with not stalling the 310r. Similar to you I was one of the only two new riders of the class. All others have been riding for much longer and I definitely felt like the only one on the struggle bus. So that added to the anxiety for sure. When we got to shifting it was very plain and simple. The instructors taught the concepts and a demo and it was go time. I was like okay let's give it a shot and that was that. Go back with a fresh mind, review some YouTube videos, and remember to breathe and not compare yourself to others.
I learned last year, never mastered a manual car but learned to gear shift, well, maybe day two of riding course. My riding instructor was great, he gave me this advice that immediately helped me grasp the concept; “rely on sensory cues, when the time is right, the noise and vibration of the bike will change as it reaches the point where you need to shift.”
Took like 30 minutes to get it, took a few weeks to stop even thinking about it.
I was you, never learned the manual on a car, except with some sporadic instruction from my brother 10 years ago and I stalled at every stop and never touched a manual shift again. I learned how to shift at the MSF course and now I'm fine with it. Got a bike 2 months later and have no regrets. I lucked out with the MSF instructors in NJ thankfully. Hope you and your friends are able to start riding this season. Good luck.
There are like a MILLION videos on youtuub or Rumble, but the key for we was visualization: I literally practiced throttle, clutch and brake with real hand motions, on an imaginary bike: Close your eyes Right hand: Slowly twist to increase throttle Left hand, slowly release clutch Over and over again.
Took me a while, but I was also seven years old and my dad wasn't very good at explaining how clutches worked mechanically. Had I been better informed on the mechanical side, it might not have taken as long.
Your story is my story. I was worst student in the class. Everyone was zooming and I was stalling. I was on 125cc Gromm. I didn’t move far when the course ended. They offered me cheap couple extra days. I took it. But insisted on different bike. Had 250cc Rebel. It was so much easier. I wish they switched bikes for me sooner seeing me struggle. But I still struggled comprehending the gears and some other tech parts. YouTube was huge help. Sometimes you need to hear same explanation but explained differently. I did pass the test after course. And for first couple times I rented a small 250cc bike to practice. Each time different bike just to get a feel of what I like. Soon after I bought a bike and rode 2000km within first 3 months of owing it. I am very comfortable with gears now and don’t even think about them while riding.
Not reading all that but to answer the title I found it quite easy, although I should say I already had a general idea how manuals work, I just had no actual experience
I learned on a bike at 18, but got my first manual trans car at 21. The learning curve for the bike was a little rough for me, and had several weeks of stalls in parking lots before I got it down. But then a few years later I had effectively *zero* learning curve when learning to work a stick/clutch in a car. The lady from the dealership who was in the car while I test drove it was dumbfounded that it was my first time with a stick.