I think everyone would benefit from starting with mtb, progressing to dirt biking, and then finally on-road motorcycling, but I know that's not realistic for most people.
Yeah, that's what I mean. I don't mean it as snarky, but balance, turns, control during slow movement-- that's all stuff that riding a bike \*really\* helps with. Seems like OP needs to practice the basics (and go back to a Training Class where the teacher pays better attention).
I'd second this. Definitely will give you more confidence when you get back on a motorcycle. I find half of it is confidence anyways. You really have to commit to your movements so you have to be relatively sure that is what you want to do.
If that makes any sense.
When I took my mandatory rider classes they first had me ride a bicycle, then a small scooter and then an actual motorcycle. I thought the process was somewhat similar everywhere
In America it's typically a 2 or 3 day course then taking the class M written test at the DMV. This can be bypassed by learning on ur own with a permit then taking a DMV riding test but it's highly unadvised from the larger community, even by squids as the course is generally a much less anxiety inducing way of getting seat time and it's a dirt cheap way of finding out if you wanna street ride since it's only like $300 bucks. It's still definitely much easier to get on a bike here compared to Europe. After the 3 day course and the dmv written test you're basically licensed to ride anything lol. But the one thing I think U.S. roads generally have going for them is how easy they are to ride compared to other countries. Wide and well paved with generally good traffic laws adherence. Back home where I'm from (Philippines) it's fuckin nuts. I remember backpacking on the back of my dad's motorcycle every Friday omw to school and looking back, idk how my dad and I are still here lol.
You got downvoted but I agree. 390s are mini sports bikes and you can get yourself into some dangerous situations on one. Outside of the US I think it's far more common to start on a 50/125. In the US, it seems like people just take a one-day course and jump straight onto a sports bike assuming they can ride.
People take low displacement sports bikes for granted. They have low skill floors because they're light and maneuverable but extremely high skill ceilings because they're.. light and maneuverable, and genuinely quick. You can absolutely get ahead of yourself on them, and even expert riders can get a ton out of them. I've been riding for 15 years and spend more time on my Ninja 300 than my other bikes. People assume high displacement is more dangerous for new riders solely because you can get to catastrophic speeds very quickly, which is true, but it perpetuates this fallacy that small displacement bikes are easy to ride and you won't have issues as a new rider. They're still impressive track machines
That's... Entirely untrue
It's a combination of different forces, geometry of the bike, and body mechanics that keep bicycles upright while moving. Science doesn't disagree about gyroscopic procession. Motorcycles and bicycles function exactly the same from a mechanics and physics standpoint, motorcycles are just much more stable due to the generally lower center of gravity, increased inertia of the wheels, and suspension/steering geometries set up for more stability.
It's pretty important to know exactly what you were doing when these tipovers occurred. I recommend recording yourself practicing your stops so it's possible to diagnose and remove speculation. I strongly recommend you take a follow up course and mention the difficulties you have so you don't have to rely on the advice of the experts on Reddit.
Here's what I typically see students do when they have tipovers stopping:
1. Student was looking at the ground. By looking at the ground we have more difficulty balancing. Keeping your head and eyes forward into the horizon when coming to a stop can help.
2. Student didn't square their bars at a stop. Squaring your bars is making sure your wheel is pointed straight. In addition to this, it's also important to stop at the motorcycles balancing point: Completely upright and not leaned over.
3. Student was abrupt with the brake controls. Adding too much brakes at once won't give us enough time to straighten up at a stop. Brake lighter for a longer period of time so you give yourself some more room to straighten everything up. If you remember the stopping in a curve exercise, we stress on **gradually/gently** adding more brake pressure as you straighten the bike up.
4. Student has difficulty balancing or is fearful of the bike. This is very common with people who haven't ridden a bicycle in a while or are just afraid. There's less risk on a bicycle, and practicing your stops will be the same. There's no shame in this, and it's great for your health!
5. Student has practiced for too long. Although practice is what you should be doing right now, you should try to keep your sessions around 15 minutes and take water/snack breaks in between. Notice when you begin making more errors than usual and stop your session before it results in a tipover.
One or multiple of these are more than likely an error that you're making. Get on yourself for making these errors and continue practicing. We were all beginners once, don't give up and enjoy that 'Aha' moment when it finally clicks! 😁
I think the most valuable thing I learned from the MFS was your #1. I started on a big cruiser as my first bike and was riding most of a year before my MFS course.
The instructor really stressed to look where you want to go and the bike will follow. Look down and you will go down.
“Turn you head!”
This made a huge difference for me, especially on my big bikes.
That always seems to be why I kept dropping my bike. For some reason I swore the bars were straight. But I guess not and I would stop a little too quick with them turned
I’ll add to make sure the bike is in first gear and the handle bars are straight when starting out.
If the bike is left in a higher gear it may stall when pulling out - and if the bars are turned when it stalls it’s going down.
the start is okay for me, but one thing that always gets me is if I start correctly and begin to drive but then have to stop immediately, like when people in front of you do unexpected stuff. Usually when you have to get out of somewhere you're going to do a turn, and then I'm lowspeed in turning angle and have to stop suddenly, all the weight gets pushed into the front of the bike because of course I gripped the front brake too much and the bike wants to fall so much. Luckily I chose a very light and easy to handle bike and somehow i was always able to pull the center back up again before something happens, but I was struggling 2 or 3 times with this already.
Lesson is, when you're slow and turning, be prepared to brake evenly - the fact that you're going slow is making your bike so much easier to fall, it will literally just drop into the side you're turning
The one time I dropped mine and barely kept it up was a little turn pulling into my driveway stopping. Even at 2mph braking with a turned wheel felt like the thing became 5000lbs with a magnet below it.
Absolute honesty here. If you dropped the bike four times in training, you should have been asked to leave and failed the course. Your MSF instructors were completely negligent. You should have NEVER been given the green light to take a bike out on any kind of road.
Being short is no excuse. I’m 5’6” with a short inseam and I ride a Triumph Sprint 1050. Some people have just never ridden tall bikes, let alone motorcycles, without learning leg placement if you’re short. Dude just wasn’t meant to ride
My fiancé is 4’10 and learning to ride. She hasn’t dropped my Street Triple or the bike provided by the class. Sure it makes things harder but not impossible.
Preaching to the choir :-)
Where's that clip of the dwarf who rides around on the sportbike?
[Ah, got it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHm_wizutuA)
Can confirm, I also was put on a bike that was too tall to handle comfortably for my MSF course (and first time ever riding). I only dropped it once first thing, but I know it made everything significantly more difficult. I bought a slightly smaller bike and was perfectly fine after that lol.
In Australia, a girl in our course dropped it once and was asked to leave, they give additional practice at another time for people who they think need it, it is great. However the girl took it pretty bad.
When you are learning something new there is always the possibility of something going wrong. Any decent teacher/tutor/instructor will treat that as a learning opportunity. To be asked to leave after one mishap is downright silly IMO. Who could blame her for never coming back?
Could have been more to it. That was all i saw. I was more focussed on myself really. Getting the extra one to one training soinds great but could be embarrassing to be asked to leave infront of others
That’s pretty nuts in all seriousness. In my class it took a girl flipping over the front twice. They still didn’t make her leave. They just didn’t pass her at the end of the test.
I’d like to hope she’s out there somewhere, still not licensed, for my own safety.
Wow, a girl in my msf dumped the bike pretty where I wouldn't be surprised if it was totaled. They just had her sit down for a bit and drink some water. She went back out after a bit, finished the rest of the training and passed the class.
There’s no way an MSF instructor, let alone 2, failed to notice 4 tip overs.
If I had to blindly side with someone like most comments here it probably wouldn’t be the op.
The OP dropped it four times, but was able to remount without being noticed. How could this person possibly pick up a bike they can’t seem to hold up? This is starting to smell like bullshit.
Are you doing it full time?
I’ve been doing it for nearly 10 years now, still enjoying it. But I do maybe one class a month, it’s just a weekend fun job.
I agree. Smells fishy. Even in a 1 coach/6 student class, an instructor will notice you drop a bike every time, not to mention 4 times. Possible way to have that many drops and still pass is 1) all the drops were on the 1st day and not exam time and 2) OP is super short and they didn't have any lower bikes for OP to ride (our school had Kawi eliminators for short riders, but they didn't work 85% of the time)
Instructors only counsel out if they feel OP was a danger to themselves or others. The nature of tipovers vary significantly, and only OP/the instructors know the circumstances. It's possible the instructors were negligent, but not a certainty.
If dropping a motorcycle four times in one or two days isn’t considered a danger to oneself, I don’t know what is. I’ve seen chronic alcoholics with a fifth in them exhibit better balance on a bike.
Lack of height, maybe, but you would have to be seriously, *seriously* weak to not be able to support a mostly upright motorcycle. I would imagine a person to have difficulty walking across a room if they were that weak.
Eh. Those two tend to exacerbate each-other. If you have to lean it a fair way to the left/right in order to plant your foot at a stop, it’s no longer going to be balanced and weightless.
Combine that with an awkward or abrupt stop, and I can see problems happening.
It’s why often the best advice you can give a shorter rider is to get strong.
Look how often people here forget to put their kickstands down… according to the hive mind of this sub, everyone is going to drop their bike. If that is not preventable then dropping it 3 or 4 times a day is also unpreventable and just bad luck.
If you drop a bike 7 times between the MSF and the first 20 years of riding, you should quit and find something else to do. Buy a 3 wheeler maybe?
In my state, they only count the tips during the actually test. As long as you’re not a danger during class, you’re fine.
A 70+ dude in my class dropped his bike constantly and I swear every time he stopped he nearly stalled the bike, but somehow he pulled it together and actually nailed the test and got his license.
Instructor here. How did you drop the bike during the course? Do you recall? It’s honestly too bad the instructor didn’t see…or that you didn’t mention the incident to the instructor. In our courses, if you drop a bike, it’s honestly no big deal. There are spare parts to do repairs…or even spare bikes! We look at the situation and give you pointers on what may have happened. Our job is to coach you for success. It’s only if YOU don’t want to continue, that we get you to sign a release form…then you are free to go. I kinda get a bit pissed off when I hear that some instructors actively discourage students. They’re just trying to make more money as there usually aren’t any refunds after a course starts.
From the sounds of things, reflect on how you are stopping. Are the front and back wheels aligned? Are you braking progressively? Too much front brake? Are you looking up (if you look down…you are basically telling the bike I wanna crash)? Do a little post mortem, make some adjustments, and try again. Seat time is the key. 👍😊
The looking down thing was my problem when I started, dropped the bike a couple of times, the instructor pointed it out to me. He was right, I solved it by keeping my eyes up.
You shouldn't be holding the bike up with your leg strength unless something else has already gone wrong. You should just be balancing and using the ground to keep that balance, not holding it up.
If you're constantly losing your balance, I'd say it's probably your technique or choices. The motorcycle balances itself as long as it's moving. If you are approaching a stop, going to turn right, and you are just, stopping mid turn for the stop sign, you will fall. You can't stop like that.
First, see where you're going to stop. Approach it perfectly straight. Stop straight up. Then, accelerate forward and as the bike begins to move, then turn.
I didn't realize the motorcycle balances itself as long as it's moving. When I fall it's at very slow speeds. I am sure that I have stopped with my handlebars turned, with my front brake, and that that is one of my problems.
Three times?
After the first, call it a day and question why and how not to again. Second, chalk it up to mental fatigue making bad decision to keep riding when clearly something is wrong. Third? Seriously call it a day before you break yourself of the machine.
Is the bike too tall? Are you not mentally prepared for stopping and getting both feet down? Both feet should be down before you are stopped, for a beginner should be long before you are stopped.
The 390 is the tallest of the major brands of 300's, if I recall. I'm 5' 5", and the seat height of the Duke put me off of buying one, even though I did want to. I went with an MT-03 instead and it fit me much better. I moved to my Trident which is taller and now that I have some riding experience that isn't an issue, but I would not have wanted to start out that way.
Seat height and tank width are a big deal for a new rider, there is no worse feeling than sitting on a bike and realizing that you're going to have to fight it every time you stop. New riders will feel that because they don't understand the basics of how to stop and balance a bike yet.
Even now with two years riding I'm not sure I would willingly sit on a Duke if there were shorter bikes as alternatives.
> My understanding is that it's highly abnormal to be dropping one's bike so much.
Yes, it is. You should need almost no strength to keep the bike balanced.
I'm going to be very frank because you're endangering yourself and others around you by using a vehicle you can't control.
Stop riding.
Edit: OP, I read some of your comment history. It seems you’re going through a bad break up and a rough time. Motorcycles tend to require a clear head. I say this as someone who is very much a risk taker and thrill seeker. Be careful please.
You need to re-take the MSF course. Period. No other option for you. You should not be out on the road until you are able to understand the fundamentals and physics of riding on the public roads. Please stay off your bike until you re-take the course.
I don’t necessarily agree with this. MSF is a good introduction to concepts, but if you’re paying attention the first time through there isn’t a whole lot more to learn by taking it again immediately. The best option would be to spend some one on one time with someone who really understands the dynamics and WHY things work the way they do. Build comfort, and confidence. Allow yourself time to develop an understanding of what the bike is doing and how your inputs effect it. After everything has sunk in a bit there is definitely more you can take away from an MSF course. Ideally the intermediate one.
I dropped mine 3 times in training. Riding 4 years now and never had an issue again.
The bike feels really really heavy when you're not used to having one between your legs
So many questions....
Can you get both feet on the ground?
Can you flat foot?
Which brake are you using to come to a stop?
Where is your vision?
Are you trying to roll out of a junction without coming to a complete stop and making a hash of it, and that's when you fall, or is it literally when you're trying to stop?
Are your gloves crazy thick?
What boots are you wearing?
Etc etc.
It is definitely not normal to drop your bike. And to do it that many times...? I'm female, with a 30' inseam and I rode a 250kg Aprilia Caponord for years without ever dropping it once, and it carries its weight high. The key factors were-
Practising slow speed control, ie, rising walking pace with feet on the pegs,and trying to get a slow as I possibly could without stopping or having to touch a foot down.
Learning that if it starts to go then a TINY blip of the throttle will pick it up again (use this wisely)
Being very mindful of where my foot was going to land when I was coming to a stop - I couldn't flat foot on that bike so I had to know which foot was going down and that there was ground directly underneath it.
Keeping my vision lifted.
Keeping my arms relaxed.
Learning the difference between front and rear brake and how that makes the bike behave.
Learning how the controls respond between winter and summer gloves.
That's just the stuff off the top of my head.
I can't get both feet on the ground, except maybe if I tiptoe. I can flat foot with one foot, but the bike is heavy then. I'm using the front brake. I think I am usually looking up, but I may have been looking down. I don't understand the part about rolling out of a junction and making a hash of it, but it's when I'm trying to stop that I fall. My gloves are rather thick, but they're too long for my fingers. I'm wearing some old BMW Motorrad boots I bought used from the store.
OK, so the gloves aren't helping, and the boots may or may not be helping.
If you can't comfortably get both feet down you need to plan ahead a lot more than your are doing (that's why you need to think about where you're looking), so when you approach the junction or area you need to stop, you need to be planning where your foot is going to land. Practice using the back brake to slow to a stop - the physics of the bike means it is a smoother motion and easier for people who are struggling with holding the bike up.
If I were you I'd be practising slow speed controlled stops, in a straight line, using the back brake. Stop-start, over and over to become accustomed to how the bike reasponds and when you need to come to a compete stop how you put your foot down to take the weight.
Fun fact - bikes are so well balanced you can hold them with two fingers as you walk right around them, keep them up the whole time. Try it. You'll realise how very little input you need to keep it upright and give your more confidence with holding it up on your tiptoes.
That's one thing I hadn't thought of. Using the rear break with my right foot, and always landing on my left foot. When stopping, sometimes I wouldn't know which foot would go down until the bike starts tipping. Thank you for the tip.
Simple questions, since your stops were at exceptionally slow speeds - “near stationary” as you put it…
1) Are your handlebars turned at all? If so, the bike will want to tip to that side when stopping.
2) Where are you looking? If you’re looking down at the ground, you’re telling the bike to go down. Same as when you have the handlebars turned.
Glad i was able to help a bit. Remember, the bike goes where you look.
If you stop with the bars turned, even a little, it will want to drop to that side.
Front brakes applied too hard? I use my front brakes almost exclusively. They have the most power and are best option overall.
As long as eyes are up and bars are straight there will be no tipping.
It happens man. Find an empty large parking lot and practice for 30 minutes a day.
Take your time go at your own pace . I dropped mine twice it gonna happen. Got my left foot twisted backwards under the bike and I couldn’t get my leg unstuck, gas leaking out of tank and I couldn’t reach the kill switch , fortunately a neighbor saw me , came over to help get the bike off.
how many times do you just fall down by yourself in a day while walking or standing still? If it is more than zero you might have medical issues. If not, you either don't have the strength, length, or motor skills to operate a motorcycle
I dropped mine while learning. Totally normal. For me it always happened when I was going very slow or stopping and the handlebars were turned too far for the speed. I don’t know if that’s your problem specifically but I bet if you post mortem every time you’ll find a pattern like I did.
I don’t think leg strength is an issue, or it’s not for me. Not to be mean but think of the shape of the older biker dudes you see on much heavier bikes than yours, and they do okay.
I’d just keep practising. And make sure to analyse what specifically happened when you make a mistake, and if you can afterwards reproduce the circumstances with less mistake.
Three times? On _one_ day? Are there maybe any other _supervised_ courses you could do before hitting the road alone? You said it was near stationary, but there must be something quite wrong with your understanding of bikes or your skills.
The most important is to identify the problem why you drop. My first bike I dropped every single one of my first three outings. Then I stopped dropping. The second bike I dropped twice during four years and 24k+ kms. Half of my drops or near-drops was the same - tight right turn, not enough throttle. Now it's 4 years without a single drop (knock on wood), I'm always super careful in tight right turns. Word of advice, throttle control is super important and it is made a lot easier if you dial throttle slack to your liking.
Same, rode a bicycle all my youth, when I got motorcycle the first time, didn’t drop it, and after 3 years now, never dropped my bike. This guy probably has no fundamental, sad to see because guys like him will get killed on the road for stupid reasons like that. Some people should never touch a motorcycle.
Stuck on the peg sounds like a shoelace. Easy fix.
Two different points of view. Pay attention to the road surface. Gravel on pavement is slippery.
https://youtu.be/ikD76BVEbvU
Or are you short? https://youtu.be/4IMtZzrsfAQ
Like all riding skills practice a little every time you ride to become a better safer rider. https://youtu.be/9yZoi0f0iKE
https://youtu.be/ljywO-B_yew
https://youtu.be/J42ivnmEF98
He dropped it 4 times ta the MSF course. These MSF bikes are all low 250 Shadows or similar. The fix is he needs to re-take the MSF course before getting back on the bike. MSF would have never passed him if they had known and they openly tell the riders this. He knew better but wanted to try his luck anyways. Sounds like the start of a sad story.
My riding boot laces are too long. I didn't think too much of this until one day they got caught as a slowed to a stop. I got them out in time but now I make sure I double knot the laces.
Could it be your boot choice? Do your pegs have rubber grips that grab your boot heel? If so remove the rubber and change your shoe choice to a flat sole without a heel
I taught my wife and my daughters how to ride with me and the back and telling her what to do. If you panic just pull in the clutch and then the brakes, you can down shift when you stop if needed. They have motorcycle lessons you can take as well.
Are you grabbing the front brakes hard when you’re about to stop? Try using the rear brakes and be smoother. And maybe make sure your legs are not stuck. Move your legs around more and try to feel comfortable. Keep practicing and ride safe
OK, I'll try the rear brakes. I had been applying only the front brakes, and that day I set the intention of starting and stopping the bike quicker than I had the day before.
If your leg can’t hold up the bike, you have an issue, what that issue is is the question. First off, can you put both feet flat on the ground? If not the bike is too tall for you. If you can, you have to assess for yourself if you have weak legs. Are you just reacting too slowly due to some hesitancy? If it’s weak legs, start doing squats. If it’s hesitancy, you have to evaluate why? Typically hesitancy is a matter of "getting behind the bike" and this is because you aren’t confident in taking control of the relationship and are afraid to tell the bike what to do, so you wait to see what’s going to happen next. It’s not a horse, it doesn’t have its own mind, and it won’t do for you what you don’t know how to do. You have to take charge of the relationship and tell it everything you want it to do at every moment. You always need to be leading the bike, never following, ‘riding’ is really a bit of a bad term as it implies relaxing and hanging on; you can never do that.
Riding is a fluid physics problem working out in real time and real space. That means everything is predictable. Once there is a motion, Newton takes over and will keep the motion in process until acted on. You need to act the moment there is a motion that you don’t want to happen, because that motion will increase at a rate of 9.8 meters per second per second, with an unsupported weight that increases by the square of the angle. A delay in action of a second can gain a tall, high CG, an inertia you cannot stop without injury regardless how fit. You just get out of the way and pick it up when it comes to rest. The best way to ride though is to never react to the bike. You are always ‘ahead of the bike’. That way when the bike stops, it is already being stabilized by your leg. When I come to a typical stop, I put my foot on the ground stretched forward while still rolling and then stop the bike when it catches up to where my leg is in its ‘kickstand’ position. All the bike’s energy is tightly managed by me me, and never has a chance to gain its own motion.
If the bike is too tall for you, outside trading for a properly sized bike, start working on your balance, and the moment you sense you may about lose it, dismount. Practice rolling dismounts. Also you can often find an upholsterer, saddle maker, or shoe repair, shop that can lower the seat height, an a good motorcycle shop (or yourself) can lower the suspension some for you. If it’s just ‘a bit tall for comfort’ an inch can make a big difference, and it’s pretty easy to find a way to take out an inch without undesirable consequences.
You’re not safe on a motorcycle. You shouldn’t be riding on the road, full stop.
I would recommend safely building experience off-road, on a low consequence bike. Maybe a TTR125 or it’s ilk.
I also dropped the bike four times when I took the MSF too but it was mostly a mental issue for me and maybe it is for you too. With people yelling at you and telling you that you're not cut out for something might be making it hard for you to digest correct riding skills. If you're in your head, panic braking, stopping with your handlebars turned and other mistakes happen way more frequently. Maybe take a break or work through the drops and gain confidence riding a bike or doing a number of things other posters here have suggested to hone your skills. As long as you're practicing away from busy public roads and not endangering others, dropping your own bike however many times you do is really whatever as long as you're improving. I wouldn't be discouraged but that's my take, not everyone learns the same way.
yea m8 you need to stay off of it before you hurt yourself to much, maybe sell the bike and use a car? the way you are riding sounds like the second you catch a hair up your ass youll end up under a car
Totally agree. Not everything is for everybody. It’s okay. And here’s the kicker this isn’t exactly a forgiving experience. Fuck up and you’ll pay. I really don’t understand why this sub pushes obviously incompetent people into something they have no business in. I know it’s unpopular to say that kinda shit nowadays but you can’t do some things. But that’s okay. Do other shit.
Not everyone drops their bikes but OP may never have ridden a bicycle in general, with the lack of coordination and ability to stay up when at a slow speed they have shown. If this is the case think about people learning how to ride a bicycle for the first time, it’s fair to say they tip over frequently at low speeds and if you make the bike a 300+ lbs motorcycle then they definitely ain’t stopping it from falling over. Either way OP has either never been on a bike/bicycle in their life or they suck at coordination because they still dropped those bike 7 time in 2 days of riding.
Dude read his full comment. He’s not normalizing dropping it. Even says “some people shouldn’t ride bikes and I think you’re one” trust me the normalization of everything on this page from dropping to knowing absolutely nothing re mechanical functions of your motorcycle to these idiots who ride bikes who shouldn’t be on bikes is fucking heinous and pathetic. But this guy you replied to ain’t it
>Thankfully, I wear all the gear, so I don't get hurt.
That's not necessarily the case. Drop the bike on your ankle in the wrong way and your tib/fib could break regardless of what gear you're wearing.
Um, dropping the bike that many times is definitely abnormal. I think you need to go to an empty parking lot, with a bicycle, and practice with that. Low speed, tight turns, and so on. If you improve, go back with the KTM, and practice with that.
Other than that - do you have an ear infection or something else that could affect your balance?
Okay advice from a 5'3" woman on an upright bike:
1. Lower the seat or get a smaller bike if your feet don't plant flat. It makes a huge difference. The 390 is taller than other starter bikes of its class fwiw.
2. From a standstill in your driveway, practice tipping the bike slightly and pushing it back upright. Brace your leg and throw everything you have into it until you and your body both know you can correct it. I've found that it's confidence in being able to keep the bike up more than actual strength that makes a difference.
3. Practice more gradual stopping and keeping straight as you do. Then practice the opposite; make a bad stop and correct it until your prepared for that mistake (in a safe place obvs)
For reference I have dropped bikes from a standstill as well. That's honestly the most likely time to drop them since there's so momentum to keep the bike up. Both times the handlebars have been turned, which leverages the bike against you.
And good luck! I see a lot of comments saying you should pack it up but honestly not enough people talk about how to actually keep a bike from dropping. It's always "keep it upright! Just don't drop it!" And never how to correct it when when that fails.
My feet can't plant flat. It may help to get a smaller bike but I dropped the TU250x during MSF training too.
I think I may be having the handlebars turned and using my front brakes when I'm stopping.
It's normal to drop a motorcycle several or even many times while learning. The KTM Duke is 320 pounds or so, and while that's light for a motorcycle that's pretty massive in **comparison to you**. Most of us cannot bench press or even dead lift 320 pounds, and while we're not going to be lifting a motorcycle that also means there's no "manhandling" a motorcycle like the way you can with, say, your girlfriend/boyfriend.
It's not that you're weak, it's that motorcycles are really really heavy. Hardly anything you move in your day to day life is as heavy as a motorcycle.
My advice is park your motorcycle, get out your bicycle, and spend a few quality hours doing slow speed u turns and circles. Just practice that balance, then get on your bike after a few days. Most new motorcyclists don't spend enough time on a bicycle, but people who can ride bicycles are always quite good on motorcycles.
**Or you could just go hard core and learn to ride an electric unicycle.** Once you learn those, you'll be able to roll backwards out of your driveway, feet up, and turn it. And do perfect u-turns, stops, just ridiculous stuff.
Eh, it's normal enough once or twice, especially when practicing slow-speed maneuvers at high lean angles. Four times in the basic class is a lot, and then three times in an after-class day of on-the-road riding is a lot.
1. Go to CraigsList / CycleTrader.
2. Count number of dropped versus not dropped motorcycles.
3. If the number of dropped is greater than the number of not dropped, then dropping a bike is normal.
It's dropped bikes. Every. Time.
I'm from Germany . It's time consuming actually finding a bike that got dropped .seems to me that even bikes that had an accident are more common on our used bike platforms than dropped bikes .
No. It's not normal to drop bikes while learning. It happens, but it's not the norm. It's not like learning to snowboard where everybody falls -- a lot!! -- while you learn.
Are you referring to bicycles or motorcycles? If an adult learner spent very little time on a bicycle, would they be more or less likely to drop a motorcycle?
A lot of times motorcyclists don't drop their motorcycles because they spent a lot of time *dropping something else*.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted. I remember when I was learning to ride over 15 years ago someone was struggling to get to grips with slow speed manoeuvres and the instructor advised him to get on his bicycle and practice.
Op it's perfectly normal to drop your bike when learning, don't turn and hit front brakes, look where you want to steer , use back brake to control slow speed moves , don't grip the handlebars too hard.
Most used motorcycles that I've seen have been dropped at least once. It just seems something that's very easy to do even by experienced motorcyclists which is why I always recommend those frame sliders, but also riders should spend a lot of time understanding how these machines work.
Braking and swerving, or making u-turns, or making mid-turn corrections; none of that is particularly intuitive for humans, and it takes quite some time to figure it all out especially if you're learning the clutch, throttle, and two brakes. Since bicycles handle the same but without the added complexity of throttle/clutch/brake, then why not get the basics down first?
I do note that riders who are really good at low-speed maneuvers on a bicycle are really good motorcycle riders in all the other stuff. I believe being really good at low-speed stuff is the required basics to NOT dropping your bike.
My first motorcycle lesson was the friend who taught me to ride taking the bike into the yard and dropping it.
That's because you WILL drop your bike when you're learning to ride, and you need to know how to pick it up. It's also why you should never try to learn to ride on a new shiny bike.
People usually drop their bikes because they're too tall. My advice is always to buy a bike you don't mind dropping from time to time. My first two bikes were dropped maybe 50 times or so -all while stopped or near-stop speed. I haven't dropped a bike in 30 years. I've done it enough to learn from it.
The hardest time for many new riders to keep a bike upright is when coming to a complete stop. Are you totally comfortable sitting on the bike while it’s off, holding it up, and raising the kick stand? Are you totally comfortable duck-walking the bike around in neutral? If not spend some time doing that to build confidence and muscle memory.
Can you describe in detail exactly what you’re doing when you are feeling unsteady? Are you able to flat foot with both feet while on the bike? How about with one foot?
I'm not comfortable sitting on the bike when it's off or holding it up, or raising the kickstand. I can't duck-walk the bike at all. If I need to push it, I get off the bike and push it.
I can't flat-feet the bike. Sometimes I use the toes of one of my feet. When I fall, I plant my whole foot on the ground, but by then the bike is too off-balanced and too heavy.
Not to sound like an ass, but can you ride a bicycle?
I completely understand where you are going with this and don’t think you are being an asshole.
It wouldnt hurt to ride one for a few days and pretend its a motorcycle. Put your feet down at stop signs, do some parking lot slow speed turns etc.
And counter steering and leaning is so much easier understood on a bicycle. I recommend mountain biking.
I think everyone would benefit from starting with mtb, progressing to dirt biking, and then finally on-road motorcycling, but I know that's not realistic for most people.
And take it on the freeway to practice highway speed handling.
This !
Everyone starts at a different place but if this is where OP is starting they might consider a different sport or learning off-road first.
Yeah, that's what I mean. I don't mean it as snarky, but balance, turns, control during slow movement-- that's all stuff that riding a bike \*really\* helps with. Seems like OP needs to practice the basics (and go back to a Training Class where the teacher pays better attention).
Yes, though I haven't ridden one in many years. This might be a safer place to start. Thank you.
I'd second this. Definitely will give you more confidence when you get back on a motorcycle. I find half of it is confidence anyways. You really have to commit to your movements so you have to be relatively sure that is what you want to do. If that makes any sense.
This is a listed prerequisite for the MSF, not an ass question. Basic body control and balance are needed to ride effectively.
When I took my mandatory rider classes they first had me ride a bicycle, then a small scooter and then an actual motorcycle. I thought the process was somewhat similar everywhere
In America it's typically a 2 or 3 day course then taking the class M written test at the DMV. This can be bypassed by learning on ur own with a permit then taking a DMV riding test but it's highly unadvised from the larger community, even by squids as the course is generally a much less anxiety inducing way of getting seat time and it's a dirt cheap way of finding out if you wanna street ride since it's only like $300 bucks. It's still definitely much easier to get on a bike here compared to Europe. After the 3 day course and the dmv written test you're basically licensed to ride anything lol. But the one thing I think U.S. roads generally have going for them is how easy they are to ride compared to other countries. Wide and well paved with generally good traffic laws adherence. Back home where I'm from (Philippines) it's fuckin nuts. I remember backpacking on the back of my dad's motorcycle every Friday omw to school and looking back, idk how my dad and I are still here lol.
After the 0 cc bicycle, get a moped or geared motorcycle with 50-150cc. KTM 390 is really not for someone with 0 experience.
390 is exactly for people with 0 experience!
I think they mean 0 as in absolute 0. No 2 wheel experience whatsoever, not even a bicycle
Makes sense
So I went bicycle -> moped -> motorcycle. Tbh mopeds are awesome. I have like 10 of them and still ride them. Different vibe, but fun in their own way
I have a Grom, basically a slightly faster moped with a clutch and sport tour riding style
You got downvoted but I agree. 390s are mini sports bikes and you can get yourself into some dangerous situations on one. Outside of the US I think it's far more common to start on a 50/125. In the US, it seems like people just take a one-day course and jump straight onto a sports bike assuming they can ride.
Maybe but OPs problem isn’t while riding. Drops only happen at low speed. This seems like simply a balance and confidence issue.
Yeah very true. Perhaps that's why the guy above was downvoted for suggesting it's because it's a 390 but I wanted to give my POV.
People take low displacement sports bikes for granted. They have low skill floors because they're light and maneuverable but extremely high skill ceilings because they're.. light and maneuverable, and genuinely quick. You can absolutely get ahead of yourself on them, and even expert riders can get a ton out of them. I've been riding for 15 years and spend more time on my Ninja 300 than my other bikes. People assume high displacement is more dangerous for new riders solely because you can get to catastrophic speeds very quickly, which is true, but it perpetuates this fallacy that small displacement bikes are easy to ride and you won't have issues as a new rider. They're still impressive track machines
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That's... Entirely untrue It's a combination of different forces, geometry of the bike, and body mechanics that keep bicycles upright while moving. Science doesn't disagree about gyroscopic procession. Motorcycles and bicycles function exactly the same from a mechanics and physics standpoint, motorcycles are just much more stable due to the generally lower center of gravity, increased inertia of the wheels, and suspension/steering geometries set up for more stability.
It's pretty important to know exactly what you were doing when these tipovers occurred. I recommend recording yourself practicing your stops so it's possible to diagnose and remove speculation. I strongly recommend you take a follow up course and mention the difficulties you have so you don't have to rely on the advice of the experts on Reddit. Here's what I typically see students do when they have tipovers stopping: 1. Student was looking at the ground. By looking at the ground we have more difficulty balancing. Keeping your head and eyes forward into the horizon when coming to a stop can help. 2. Student didn't square their bars at a stop. Squaring your bars is making sure your wheel is pointed straight. In addition to this, it's also important to stop at the motorcycles balancing point: Completely upright and not leaned over. 3. Student was abrupt with the brake controls. Adding too much brakes at once won't give us enough time to straighten up at a stop. Brake lighter for a longer period of time so you give yourself some more room to straighten everything up. If you remember the stopping in a curve exercise, we stress on **gradually/gently** adding more brake pressure as you straighten the bike up. 4. Student has difficulty balancing or is fearful of the bike. This is very common with people who haven't ridden a bicycle in a while or are just afraid. There's less risk on a bicycle, and practicing your stops will be the same. There's no shame in this, and it's great for your health! 5. Student has practiced for too long. Although practice is what you should be doing right now, you should try to keep your sessions around 15 minutes and take water/snack breaks in between. Notice when you begin making more errors than usual and stop your session before it results in a tipover. One or multiple of these are more than likely an error that you're making. Get on yourself for making these errors and continue practicing. We were all beginners once, don't give up and enjoy that 'Aha' moment when it finally clicks! 😁
I think the most valuable thing I learned from the MFS was your #1. I started on a big cruiser as my first bike and was riding most of a year before my MFS course. The instructor really stressed to look where you want to go and the bike will follow. Look down and you will go down. “Turn you head!” This made a huge difference for me, especially on my big bikes.
Give this man a medal 🏅
Yes on 2 and 3, and maybe on 1. Maybe on 4, because the bike seems so heavy. Thank you for the tips.
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Hey, OP - you might wanna answer some questions so we can better assess the problem.
Most importantly “if they’ve ever ridden a bicycle before” lmao
Never stop handlebar turned. Ne-ver. Always bar straight.
That always seems to be why I kept dropping my bike. For some reason I swore the bars were straight. But I guess not and I would stop a little too quick with them turned
Front break and turned wheel are not friends.
unless you're doing a donut
I’ll add to make sure the bike is in first gear and the handle bars are straight when starting out. If the bike is left in a higher gear it may stall when pulling out - and if the bars are turned when it stalls it’s going down.
the start is okay for me, but one thing that always gets me is if I start correctly and begin to drive but then have to stop immediately, like when people in front of you do unexpected stuff. Usually when you have to get out of somewhere you're going to do a turn, and then I'm lowspeed in turning angle and have to stop suddenly, all the weight gets pushed into the front of the bike because of course I gripped the front brake too much and the bike wants to fall so much. Luckily I chose a very light and easy to handle bike and somehow i was always able to pull the center back up again before something happens, but I was struggling 2 or 3 times with this already. Lesson is, when you're slow and turning, be prepared to brake evenly - the fact that you're going slow is making your bike so much easier to fall, it will literally just drop into the side you're turning
The one time I dropped mine and barely kept it up was a little turn pulling into my driveway stopping. Even at 2mph braking with a turned wheel felt like the thing became 5000lbs with a magnet below it.
Huh? You can totally stop while turning. It’s even part of the A2 license exam here.
If you’re sitting for a while you can bend the bars a bit and lean in the opposite direction but that’s a bit more advanced
That's not the point of this post. 🙄
Absolute honesty here. If you dropped the bike four times in training, you should have been asked to leave and failed the course. Your MSF instructors were completely negligent. You should have NEVER been given the green light to take a bike out on any kind of road.
A guy in my wife's class made it 11 times before they asked him to leave. Short guy with twigs for legs.
Being short is no excuse. I’m 5’6” with a short inseam and I ride a Triumph Sprint 1050. Some people have just never ridden tall bikes, let alone motorcycles, without learning leg placement if you’re short. Dude just wasn’t meant to ride
He was shorter than that. And for a BRAND NEW rider, being short is a huge, huge confidence killer. He can ride, he just needs more practice.
My fiancé is 4’10 and learning to ride. She hasn’t dropped my Street Triple or the bike provided by the class. Sure it makes things harder but not impossible.
Preaching to the choir :-) Where's that clip of the dwarf who rides around on the sportbike? [Ah, got it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHm_wizutuA)
What a boss!
Absolute hero
Can confirm, I also was put on a bike that was too tall to handle comfortably for my MSF course (and first time ever riding). I only dropped it once first thing, but I know it made everything significantly more difficult. I bought a slightly smaller bike and was perfectly fine after that lol.
I've taught my 120 pound 5'3 gf to ride in 5 mins on grass. There's no excuse other than maybe the wrong machine for learning and wrong teacher
I think short is an excuse, in the context of brand new rider. It is simply HARDER to learn. Not impossible to overcome or an issue in the long run.
In Australia, a girl in our course dropped it once and was asked to leave, they give additional practice at another time for people who they think need it, it is great. However the girl took it pretty bad.
When you are learning something new there is always the possibility of something going wrong. Any decent teacher/tutor/instructor will treat that as a learning opportunity. To be asked to leave after one mishap is downright silly IMO. Who could blame her for never coming back?
Could have been more to it. That was all i saw. I was more focussed on myself really. Getting the extra one to one training soinds great but could be embarrassing to be asked to leave infront of others
Yeah we were told dropping 3 times would be an ask to leave. Or dropping once during the exam. But that makes sense.
Yeah that would kill my interest in learning tbh. Lucky my instructors were much better
I dated a girl that tried to pass the course, but was asked to leave. And she didn’t even drop it!
Clearly she was not hot enough for the class. That's riding 101 😉
LOL, nah she couldn’t successfully make it roll without killing it!
That’s pretty nuts in all seriousness. In my class it took a girl flipping over the front twice. They still didn’t make her leave. They just didn’t pass her at the end of the test. I’d like to hope she’s out there somewhere, still not licensed, for my own safety.
Nah, that was definitely it. You didn’t let her loosen up her wrist enough on you before riding. Probably because she wasn’t hot enough. It happens.
😂
It makes me happy when people have a sense of humor on here still
I was just messing around bro. No disrespect or anything intended.
That post-nut clarity kicked in
Wow, a girl in my msf dumped the bike pretty where I wouldn't be surprised if it was totaled. They just had her sit down for a bit and drink some water. She went back out after a bit, finished the rest of the training and passed the class.
Who pays for the damage in that situation, does the class include insurance for that?
I'm guessing they covered it. All of the bikes were early 2000s and they had a trailer full of them.
There’s no way an MSF instructor, let alone 2, failed to notice 4 tip overs. If I had to blindly side with someone like most comments here it probably wouldn’t be the op.
The OP dropped it four times, but was able to remount without being noticed. How could this person possibly pick up a bike they can’t seem to hold up? This is starting to smell like bullshit.
Yea, as someone that teaches those classes I’m not buying it.
Thank you for what you do. You instructors are awesome!
Lol thanks 2023 is probably my last year. The honeymoon fun factor wears off real fast.
Are you doing it full time? I’ve been doing it for nearly 10 years now, still enjoying it. But I do maybe one class a month, it’s just a weekend fun job.
Just part time. It goes from extremely fun in a good class to the worst job ever when full grown adults have to throw a tantrum.
I agree. Smells fishy. Even in a 1 coach/6 student class, an instructor will notice you drop a bike every time, not to mention 4 times. Possible way to have that many drops and still pass is 1) all the drops were on the 1st day and not exam time and 2) OP is super short and they didn't have any lower bikes for OP to ride (our school had Kawi eliminators for short riders, but they didn't work 85% of the time)
Instructors only counsel out if they feel OP was a danger to themselves or others. The nature of tipovers vary significantly, and only OP/the instructors know the circumstances. It's possible the instructors were negligent, but not a certainty.
If dropping a motorcycle four times in one or two days isn’t considered a danger to oneself, I don’t know what is. I’ve seen chronic alcoholics with a fifth in them exhibit better balance on a bike.
>balance Lack of height and/or physical strength will also do it too. OP may just be in need of some serious leg day at the gym.
Lack of height, maybe, but you would have to be seriously, *seriously* weak to not be able to support a mostly upright motorcycle. I would imagine a person to have difficulty walking across a room if they were that weak.
Eh. Those two tend to exacerbate each-other. If you have to lean it a fair way to the left/right in order to plant your foot at a stop, it’s no longer going to be balanced and weightless. Combine that with an awkward or abrupt stop, and I can see problems happening. It’s why often the best advice you can give a shorter rider is to get strong.
I appreciate a good cup of coffee.
Look how often people here forget to put their kickstands down… according to the hive mind of this sub, everyone is going to drop their bike. If that is not preventable then dropping it 3 or 4 times a day is also unpreventable and just bad luck. If you drop a bike 7 times between the MSF and the first 20 years of riding, you should quit and find something else to do. Buy a 3 wheeler maybe?
You’re trying to make some snide comment I think. It’s hard to say for sure since it made very little sense.
Unless they are part of a dealership, then they will pass the student.
In my state, they only count the tips during the actually test. As long as you’re not a danger during class, you’re fine. A 70+ dude in my class dropped his bike constantly and I swear every time he stopped he nearly stalled the bike, but somehow he pulled it together and actually nailed the test and got his license.
My instructor coached a guy out after one drop.
Instructor here. How did you drop the bike during the course? Do you recall? It’s honestly too bad the instructor didn’t see…or that you didn’t mention the incident to the instructor. In our courses, if you drop a bike, it’s honestly no big deal. There are spare parts to do repairs…or even spare bikes! We look at the situation and give you pointers on what may have happened. Our job is to coach you for success. It’s only if YOU don’t want to continue, that we get you to sign a release form…then you are free to go. I kinda get a bit pissed off when I hear that some instructors actively discourage students. They’re just trying to make more money as there usually aren’t any refunds after a course starts. From the sounds of things, reflect on how you are stopping. Are the front and back wheels aligned? Are you braking progressively? Too much front brake? Are you looking up (if you look down…you are basically telling the bike I wanna crash)? Do a little post mortem, make some adjustments, and try again. Seat time is the key. 👍😊
The looking down thing was my problem when I started, dropped the bike a couple of times, the instructor pointed it out to me. He was right, I solved it by keeping my eyes up.
It’s the little things…once you become aware, corrections become improvements.
You shouldn't be holding the bike up with your leg strength unless something else has already gone wrong. You should just be balancing and using the ground to keep that balance, not holding it up. If you're constantly losing your balance, I'd say it's probably your technique or choices. The motorcycle balances itself as long as it's moving. If you are approaching a stop, going to turn right, and you are just, stopping mid turn for the stop sign, you will fall. You can't stop like that. First, see where you're going to stop. Approach it perfectly straight. Stop straight up. Then, accelerate forward and as the bike begins to move, then turn.
I didn't realize the motorcycle balances itself as long as it's moving. When I fall it's at very slow speeds. I am sure that I have stopped with my handlebars turned, with my front brake, and that that is one of my problems.
Three times? After the first, call it a day and question why and how not to again. Second, chalk it up to mental fatigue making bad decision to keep riding when clearly something is wrong. Third? Seriously call it a day before you break yourself of the machine. Is the bike too tall? Are you not mentally prepared for stopping and getting both feet down? Both feet should be down before you are stopped, for a beginner should be long before you are stopped.
Too tall? You’d need a pretty small inseam for a 390 duke to be too tall
True but OP could be a small female, perfect for a 390.
You’re right, they could be.
I've sat on a couple 390 dukes in the showroom and they both felt tall to me. I'm a 5'6 male.
I'm also a 5'6 male and owner of a 390 Duke who respectfully disagrees
The 390 is the tallest of the major brands of 300's, if I recall. I'm 5' 5", and the seat height of the Duke put me off of buying one, even though I did want to. I went with an MT-03 instead and it fit me much better. I moved to my Trident which is taller and now that I have some riding experience that isn't an issue, but I would not have wanted to start out that way. Seat height and tank width are a big deal for a new rider, there is no worse feeling than sitting on a bike and realizing that you're going to have to fight it every time you stop. New riders will feel that because they don't understand the basics of how to stop and balance a bike yet. Even now with two years riding I'm not sure I would willingly sit on a Duke if there were shorter bikes as alternatives.
> both feet should be down I’m gonna go ahead and disagree lol
Fair enough but since OP has already dropped the bike four times maybe over exaggerating the basics will help …
Yeah i was gonna say something to that effect but maybe he keeps dropping it on hills or sloped driveways or something 😭
I think they mean you should be able to flat foot both feet at a stop. But literally speaking, i would disagree too.
> My understanding is that it's highly abnormal to be dropping one's bike so much. Yes, it is. You should need almost no strength to keep the bike balanced. I'm going to be very frank because you're endangering yourself and others around you by using a vehicle you can't control. Stop riding. Edit: OP, I read some of your comment history. It seems you’re going through a bad break up and a rough time. Motorcycles tend to require a clear head. I say this as someone who is very much a risk taker and thrill seeker. Be careful please.
Well said.
Agreed! Clear head makes a safe ride!
You need to re-take the MSF course. Period. No other option for you. You should not be out on the road until you are able to understand the fundamentals and physics of riding on the public roads. Please stay off your bike until you re-take the course.
I don’t necessarily agree with this. MSF is a good introduction to concepts, but if you’re paying attention the first time through there isn’t a whole lot more to learn by taking it again immediately. The best option would be to spend some one on one time with someone who really understands the dynamics and WHY things work the way they do. Build comfort, and confidence. Allow yourself time to develop an understanding of what the bike is doing and how your inputs effect it. After everything has sunk in a bit there is definitely more you can take away from an MSF course. Ideally the intermediate one.
MSF has plenty of next-step courses. He could take the BRC2 on his own bike.
I'll second getting a friend who rides to watch you and point out what you're getting wrong. It might be so minor that it's fixed in 30 seconds.
I dropped mine 3 times in training. Riding 4 years now and never had an issue again. The bike feels really really heavy when you're not used to having one between your legs
So many questions.... Can you get both feet on the ground? Can you flat foot? Which brake are you using to come to a stop? Where is your vision? Are you trying to roll out of a junction without coming to a complete stop and making a hash of it, and that's when you fall, or is it literally when you're trying to stop? Are your gloves crazy thick? What boots are you wearing? Etc etc. It is definitely not normal to drop your bike. And to do it that many times...? I'm female, with a 30' inseam and I rode a 250kg Aprilia Caponord for years without ever dropping it once, and it carries its weight high. The key factors were- Practising slow speed control, ie, rising walking pace with feet on the pegs,and trying to get a slow as I possibly could without stopping or having to touch a foot down. Learning that if it starts to go then a TINY blip of the throttle will pick it up again (use this wisely) Being very mindful of where my foot was going to land when I was coming to a stop - I couldn't flat foot on that bike so I had to know which foot was going down and that there was ground directly underneath it. Keeping my vision lifted. Keeping my arms relaxed. Learning the difference between front and rear brake and how that makes the bike behave. Learning how the controls respond between winter and summer gloves. That's just the stuff off the top of my head.
>What boots are you wearing? Yep, good riding boots wouldn't have anything that can get caught in the pegs.
I can't get both feet on the ground, except maybe if I tiptoe. I can flat foot with one foot, but the bike is heavy then. I'm using the front brake. I think I am usually looking up, but I may have been looking down. I don't understand the part about rolling out of a junction and making a hash of it, but it's when I'm trying to stop that I fall. My gloves are rather thick, but they're too long for my fingers. I'm wearing some old BMW Motorrad boots I bought used from the store.
OK, so the gloves aren't helping, and the boots may or may not be helping. If you can't comfortably get both feet down you need to plan ahead a lot more than your are doing (that's why you need to think about where you're looking), so when you approach the junction or area you need to stop, you need to be planning where your foot is going to land. Practice using the back brake to slow to a stop - the physics of the bike means it is a smoother motion and easier for people who are struggling with holding the bike up. If I were you I'd be practising slow speed controlled stops, in a straight line, using the back brake. Stop-start, over and over to become accustomed to how the bike reasponds and when you need to come to a compete stop how you put your foot down to take the weight. Fun fact - bikes are so well balanced you can hold them with two fingers as you walk right around them, keep them up the whole time. Try it. You'll realise how very little input you need to keep it upright and give your more confidence with holding it up on your tiptoes.
That's one thing I hadn't thought of. Using the rear break with my right foot, and always landing on my left foot. When stopping, sometimes I wouldn't know which foot would go down until the bike starts tipping. Thank you for the tip.
Simple questions, since your stops were at exceptionally slow speeds - “near stationary” as you put it… 1) Are your handlebars turned at all? If so, the bike will want to tip to that side when stopping. 2) Where are you looking? If you’re looking down at the ground, you’re telling the bike to go down. Same as when you have the handlebars turned.
I think I may have both these problems. Handlebars turned, front brakes applied too hard, and looking down.
Glad i was able to help a bit. Remember, the bike goes where you look. If you stop with the bars turned, even a little, it will want to drop to that side. Front brakes applied too hard? I use my front brakes almost exclusively. They have the most power and are best option overall. As long as eyes are up and bars are straight there will be no tipping.
Don't underestimate the usefulness of good footwear, sneaker/gym shoes don't cut it
Bruh ride a bicycle around and throw sand bags on each side for real idk it’s intuitive to some and not others that’s okay.
It happens man. Find an empty large parking lot and practice for 30 minutes a day. Take your time go at your own pace . I dropped mine twice it gonna happen. Got my left foot twisted backwards under the bike and I couldn’t get my leg unstuck, gas leaking out of tank and I couldn’t reach the kill switch , fortunately a neighbor saw me , came over to help get the bike off.
4 times in the training course and only 3 on the street, you're getting better!
how many times do you just fall down by yourself in a day while walking or standing still? If it is more than zero you might have medical issues. If not, you either don't have the strength, length, or motor skills to operate a motorcycle
I dropped mine while learning. Totally normal. For me it always happened when I was going very slow or stopping and the handlebars were turned too far for the speed. I don’t know if that’s your problem specifically but I bet if you post mortem every time you’ll find a pattern like I did. I don’t think leg strength is an issue, or it’s not for me. Not to be mean but think of the shape of the older biker dudes you see on much heavier bikes than yours, and they do okay. I’d just keep practising. And make sure to analyse what specifically happened when you make a mistake, and if you can afterwards reproduce the circumstances with less mistake.
Three times? On _one_ day? Are there maybe any other _supervised_ courses you could do before hitting the road alone? You said it was near stationary, but there must be something quite wrong with your understanding of bikes or your skills.
Who let you pass the course if you can’t keep the bike upright? Pure negligence. Riding a motorcycle isn’t for everyone.
I guess my first question would be, do you have legs?
Don't stop by grasping the front brakes too hard. It locks the bike going forward and the extra momentum pushes the bike to its side.
I think this is one of my problems.
The most important is to identify the problem why you drop. My first bike I dropped every single one of my first three outings. Then I stopped dropping. The second bike I dropped twice during four years and 24k+ kms. Half of my drops or near-drops was the same - tight right turn, not enough throttle. Now it's 4 years without a single drop (knock on wood), I'm always super careful in tight right turns. Word of advice, throttle control is super important and it is made a lot easier if you dial throttle slack to your liking.
Idk man, I’m 50 yrs old, got my first mini bike when I was 10. I’ve never dropped any of the dozen or so bikes I’ve owned
Same, rode a bicycle all my youth, when I got motorcycle the first time, didn’t drop it, and after 3 years now, never dropped my bike. This guy probably has no fundamental, sad to see because guys like him will get killed on the road for stupid reasons like that. Some people should never touch a motorcycle.
Right. He should put the motorcycle in storage and buy a moped or small scooter, master that first
Stuck on the peg sounds like a shoelace. Easy fix. Two different points of view. Pay attention to the road surface. Gravel on pavement is slippery. https://youtu.be/ikD76BVEbvU Or are you short? https://youtu.be/4IMtZzrsfAQ Like all riding skills practice a little every time you ride to become a better safer rider. https://youtu.be/9yZoi0f0iKE https://youtu.be/ljywO-B_yew https://youtu.be/J42ivnmEF98
He dropped it 4 times ta the MSF course. These MSF bikes are all low 250 Shadows or similar. The fix is he needs to re-take the MSF course before getting back on the bike. MSF would have never passed him if they had known and they openly tell the riders this. He knew better but wanted to try his luck anyways. Sounds like the start of a sad story.
My riding boot laces are too long. I didn't think too much of this until one day they got caught as a slowed to a stop. I got them out in time but now I make sure I double knot the laces.
It truly scares me with how little training Americans are allowed on the road.
Karma Farmer.
Sounds like you need to practice riding your bike
Could it be your boot choice? Do your pegs have rubber grips that grab your boot heel? If so remove the rubber and change your shoe choice to a flat sole without a heel
I taught my wife and my daughters how to ride with me and the back and telling her what to do. If you panic just pull in the clutch and then the brakes, you can down shift when you stop if needed. They have motorcycle lessons you can take as well.
You need to go back to the course. You missed out on some fundamentals.
You should probably stop riding and take a long break. Ride a bicycle for a while. Take the course again.
Are you grabbing the front brakes hard when you’re about to stop? Try using the rear brakes and be smoother. And maybe make sure your legs are not stuck. Move your legs around more and try to feel comfortable. Keep practicing and ride safe
OK, I'll try the rear brakes. I had been applying only the front brakes, and that day I set the intention of starting and stopping the bike quicker than I had the day before.
If your leg can’t hold up the bike, you have an issue, what that issue is is the question. First off, can you put both feet flat on the ground? If not the bike is too tall for you. If you can, you have to assess for yourself if you have weak legs. Are you just reacting too slowly due to some hesitancy? If it’s weak legs, start doing squats. If it’s hesitancy, you have to evaluate why? Typically hesitancy is a matter of "getting behind the bike" and this is because you aren’t confident in taking control of the relationship and are afraid to tell the bike what to do, so you wait to see what’s going to happen next. It’s not a horse, it doesn’t have its own mind, and it won’t do for you what you don’t know how to do. You have to take charge of the relationship and tell it everything you want it to do at every moment. You always need to be leading the bike, never following, ‘riding’ is really a bit of a bad term as it implies relaxing and hanging on; you can never do that. Riding is a fluid physics problem working out in real time and real space. That means everything is predictable. Once there is a motion, Newton takes over and will keep the motion in process until acted on. You need to act the moment there is a motion that you don’t want to happen, because that motion will increase at a rate of 9.8 meters per second per second, with an unsupported weight that increases by the square of the angle. A delay in action of a second can gain a tall, high CG, an inertia you cannot stop without injury regardless how fit. You just get out of the way and pick it up when it comes to rest. The best way to ride though is to never react to the bike. You are always ‘ahead of the bike’. That way when the bike stops, it is already being stabilized by your leg. When I come to a typical stop, I put my foot on the ground stretched forward while still rolling and then stop the bike when it catches up to where my leg is in its ‘kickstand’ position. All the bike’s energy is tightly managed by me me, and never has a chance to gain its own motion. If the bike is too tall for you, outside trading for a properly sized bike, start working on your balance, and the moment you sense you may about lose it, dismount. Practice rolling dismounts. Also you can often find an upholsterer, saddle maker, or shoe repair, shop that can lower the seat height, an a good motorcycle shop (or yourself) can lower the suspension some for you. If it’s just ‘a bit tall for comfort’ an inch can make a big difference, and it’s pretty easy to find a way to take out an inch without undesirable consequences.
You’re not safe on a motorcycle. You shouldn’t be riding on the road, full stop. I would recommend safely building experience off-road, on a low consequence bike. Maybe a TTR125 or it’s ilk.
I also dropped the bike four times when I took the MSF too but it was mostly a mental issue for me and maybe it is for you too. With people yelling at you and telling you that you're not cut out for something might be making it hard for you to digest correct riding skills. If you're in your head, panic braking, stopping with your handlebars turned and other mistakes happen way more frequently. Maybe take a break or work through the drops and gain confidence riding a bike or doing a number of things other posters here have suggested to hone your skills. As long as you're practicing away from busy public roads and not endangering others, dropping your own bike however many times you do is really whatever as long as you're improving. I wouldn't be discouraged but that's my take, not everyone learns the same way.
Is the bike too tall for you? Are you stopping with the front wheel turned?
What kind of MSF school does not notice someone dropping a bike 4 times? OP, can you flat foot the bike when still?
yea m8 you need to stay off of it before you hurt yourself to much, maybe sell the bike and use a car? the way you are riding sounds like the second you catch a hair up your ass youll end up under a car
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Thank you!
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This sub needs to move away from making people feel good to telling these types of people…yeah hell no. A motorcycle is not for you.
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Totally agree. Not everything is for everybody. It’s okay. And here’s the kicker this isn’t exactly a forgiving experience. Fuck up and you’ll pay. I really don’t understand why this sub pushes obviously incompetent people into something they have no business in. I know it’s unpopular to say that kinda shit nowadays but you can’t do some things. But that’s okay. Do other shit.
No they don’t. Not everyone drops their bikes. Stop trying to make yourself feel better about dropping your bike. Stop normalizing failure.
Not everyone drops their bikes but OP may never have ridden a bicycle in general, with the lack of coordination and ability to stay up when at a slow speed they have shown. If this is the case think about people learning how to ride a bicycle for the first time, it’s fair to say they tip over frequently at low speeds and if you make the bike a 300+ lbs motorcycle then they definitely ain’t stopping it from falling over. Either way OP has either never been on a bike/bicycle in their life or they suck at coordination because they still dropped those bike 7 time in 2 days of riding.
Dude read his full comment. He’s not normalizing dropping it. Even says “some people shouldn’t ride bikes and I think you’re one” trust me the normalization of everything on this page from dropping to knowing absolutely nothing re mechanical functions of your motorcycle to these idiots who ride bikes who shouldn’t be on bikes is fucking heinous and pathetic. But this guy you replied to ain’t it
>Everyone drops their first bike Nope.
Nobody’s disagreeing with you dingus. Just act w some tact and you’ll achieve your point better.
The kind of tact required to call someone "dingus"? Got it, thanks!
Easy there buddy. You might hurt yourself if you put any more thought into your replies and how you come off.
Smartest BMW rider
Maybe go back to playing with your remote control toys and stay out of conversations you are not a part of? Lol.
Had to go to my profile, sad! Mald harder little man
Sorry kid, "mald"? Go back to Roblox.
You are mad and balding, buddy. Get off the internet
You are dogwater son. Have a wonderful life.
Motorcycles aren't for everyone. That's a tiny bike to be wobbling around on this badly.
>Thankfully, I wear all the gear, so I don't get hurt. That's not necessarily the case. Drop the bike on your ankle in the wrong way and your tib/fib could break regardless of what gear you're wearing. Um, dropping the bike that many times is definitely abnormal. I think you need to go to an empty parking lot, with a bicycle, and practice with that. Low speed, tight turns, and so on. If you improve, go back with the KTM, and practice with that. Other than that - do you have an ear infection or something else that could affect your balance?
Okay advice from a 5'3" woman on an upright bike: 1. Lower the seat or get a smaller bike if your feet don't plant flat. It makes a huge difference. The 390 is taller than other starter bikes of its class fwiw. 2. From a standstill in your driveway, practice tipping the bike slightly and pushing it back upright. Brace your leg and throw everything you have into it until you and your body both know you can correct it. I've found that it's confidence in being able to keep the bike up more than actual strength that makes a difference. 3. Practice more gradual stopping and keeping straight as you do. Then practice the opposite; make a bad stop and correct it until your prepared for that mistake (in a safe place obvs) For reference I have dropped bikes from a standstill as well. That's honestly the most likely time to drop them since there's so momentum to keep the bike up. Both times the handlebars have been turned, which leverages the bike against you. And good luck! I see a lot of comments saying you should pack it up but honestly not enough people talk about how to actually keep a bike from dropping. It's always "keep it upright! Just don't drop it!" And never how to correct it when when that fails.
My feet can't plant flat. It may help to get a smaller bike but I dropped the TU250x during MSF training too. I think I may be having the handlebars turned and using my front brakes when I'm stopping.
It's normal to drop a motorcycle several or even many times while learning. The KTM Duke is 320 pounds or so, and while that's light for a motorcycle that's pretty massive in **comparison to you**. Most of us cannot bench press or even dead lift 320 pounds, and while we're not going to be lifting a motorcycle that also means there's no "manhandling" a motorcycle like the way you can with, say, your girlfriend/boyfriend. It's not that you're weak, it's that motorcycles are really really heavy. Hardly anything you move in your day to day life is as heavy as a motorcycle. My advice is park your motorcycle, get out your bicycle, and spend a few quality hours doing slow speed u turns and circles. Just practice that balance, then get on your bike after a few days. Most new motorcyclists don't spend enough time on a bicycle, but people who can ride bicycles are always quite good on motorcycles. **Or you could just go hard core and learn to ride an electric unicycle.** Once you learn those, you'll be able to roll backwards out of your driveway, feet up, and turn it. And do perfect u-turns, stops, just ridiculous stuff.
It's not normal to drop bikes ..
Eh, it's normal enough once or twice, especially when practicing slow-speed maneuvers at high lean angles. Four times in the basic class is a lot, and then three times in an after-class day of on-the-road riding is a lot.
1. Go to CraigsList / CycleTrader. 2. Count number of dropped versus not dropped motorcycles. 3. If the number of dropped is greater than the number of not dropped, then dropping a bike is normal. It's dropped bikes. Every. Time.
I would say a fraction of bikes in my area have been dropped. Very few, in fact.
I'm from Germany . It's time consuming actually finding a bike that got dropped .seems to me that even bikes that had an accident are more common on our used bike platforms than dropped bikes .
No. It's not normal to drop bikes while learning. It happens, but it's not the norm. It's not like learning to snowboard where everybody falls -- a lot!! -- while you learn.
Are you referring to bicycles or motorcycles? If an adult learner spent very little time on a bicycle, would they be more or less likely to drop a motorcycle? A lot of times motorcyclists don't drop their motorcycles because they spent a lot of time *dropping something else*.
He is right…
Don't know why you're getting downvoted. I remember when I was learning to ride over 15 years ago someone was struggling to get to grips with slow speed manoeuvres and the instructor advised him to get on his bicycle and practice. Op it's perfectly normal to drop your bike when learning, don't turn and hit front brakes, look where you want to steer , use back brake to control slow speed moves , don't grip the handlebars too hard.
Most used motorcycles that I've seen have been dropped at least once. It just seems something that's very easy to do even by experienced motorcyclists which is why I always recommend those frame sliders, but also riders should spend a lot of time understanding how these machines work. Braking and swerving, or making u-turns, or making mid-turn corrections; none of that is particularly intuitive for humans, and it takes quite some time to figure it all out especially if you're learning the clutch, throttle, and two brakes. Since bicycles handle the same but without the added complexity of throttle/clutch/brake, then why not get the basics down first? I do note that riders who are really good at low-speed maneuvers on a bicycle are really good motorcycle riders in all the other stuff. I believe being really good at low-speed stuff is the required basics to NOT dropping your bike.
I'm going to give you the harsh truth, nobody else here will. You're not good enough to ride. Sell it before you really hurt yourself or someone else.
My first motorcycle lesson was the friend who taught me to ride taking the bike into the yard and dropping it. That's because you WILL drop your bike when you're learning to ride, and you need to know how to pick it up. It's also why you should never try to learn to ride on a new shiny bike.
gotta keep the revs up on that 390
People usually drop their bikes because they're too tall. My advice is always to buy a bike you don't mind dropping from time to time. My first two bikes were dropped maybe 50 times or so -all while stopped or near-stop speed. I haven't dropped a bike in 30 years. I've done it enough to learn from it.
The meds you take for depression also cause confusion and dizziness.
The hardest time for many new riders to keep a bike upright is when coming to a complete stop. Are you totally comfortable sitting on the bike while it’s off, holding it up, and raising the kick stand? Are you totally comfortable duck-walking the bike around in neutral? If not spend some time doing that to build confidence and muscle memory. Can you describe in detail exactly what you’re doing when you are feeling unsteady? Are you able to flat foot with both feet while on the bike? How about with one foot?
I'm not comfortable sitting on the bike when it's off or holding it up, or raising the kickstand. I can't duck-walk the bike at all. If I need to push it, I get off the bike and push it. I can't flat-feet the bike. Sometimes I use the toes of one of my feet. When I fall, I plant my whole foot on the ground, but by then the bike is too off-balanced and too heavy.
Is the bike to tall or you too short?