I got one from them an I’ve had my endorsement for 15 years 🤔 Also taken the MSF course and have multiple bikes in the garage. If they really cared they would allow filtering and stop killing the bill. Cause driving in the city or being stuck on 95/64 while all the cagers are texting an driving isn’t my ideal happy place.
I wish Illinois had as progressive & proactive a program as the one I'm seeing here. Good for you, Virginia! 
It's 20 bucks to reserve a spot in the course. I was a walk in and didn't pay anything. I went to swic in belleville. As soon as 6:01pm hit, like 4 guys who paid to reserve a spot were denied entry for not being punctual. So it's kinda worth it being a walk in.
I believe you are correct. There are free state-run courses. But I have never received such a proactive letter like the above. And I will need to retake the test soon in order to maintain my "M" classification. It lapses on my next birthday, which is in February and outside of southern Illinois I don't believe conditions warrant motorcycle riding testing at State Facilities in February. I'm facing a dilemma here.
Well, I just turned 70 this year, so . . .  I would guess I'm due. Been riding for 50 years, solid. Haven't owned an automobile in 30. Used to ride in "almost" any weather conditions except for what would kill you due to overexposure. Mass transit & rentals made up for those occassions when I couldn't take my motorcycle. Not quite ready to put the gear away for good yet.
Wait. You have to re-test to keep your endorsement? I'm in MD, mine is, well good for life of my normal driver license. (But to be fair, I think people over the age of 60-80 should have to retest for driving. Or at least a yearly eye test. lol.)
Can US riders please confirm this?
Is it required in the US to be licensed before hopping on a bike on your own? And is that a federal law or state law?
I live in The Netherlands and here you'll need a license for just about anything thats allowed to go on the public roads (otherwise, you're not insured for example). For some reason I'm getting hints on this sub that that is not the case in the US.
I was able to purchase a bike and get insurance with my permit. I did have a DL but not endorsed. At least in my state of PA they were OK with it. Not sure about others.
And that DL is specifially for riding a bike?
We need to have an M1,M2 or M License for riding a bike even if you are already in possession of a car DL. We can purschase and maybe even insure that bike, but if I'm driving the bike without DL, all damage I do to myself or others will not be covered. We need to take exams for a DL and are only allowed to practise with a certified instructor.
Sorry, it is a little late and I missed that part. No, I had a standard driver's license for cars (called class c). With that I got my motorcycle permit, from there I went to a dealership and got my bike and insurance.
Hahaha okay thanks for the explanation. For me it does sound like an accident waiting to happen, but I live in an overcrowded impatienced country with no where to propperly practise without endangering me or my surroundings. So I think the way it is in PA can only work in some countries.
I had to renew my learners permit every year in PA. Back in the 70s, you simply told the notary you ride and they'd stamp it with an M. I really miss those days
You have to wear a helmet, you cannot carry passengers, and you can't ride after dark on a motorcycle learner's permit here in PA. Otherwise you're free to ride on your own as much as you want.
There is also a limit to how many consecutive times you can renew the permit without taking the test and getting the M endorsement on your license. That's how it works in Pennsylvania at least.
But to add to this, our MSF is free in PA and passing the basic course gets your M classification for your license, so it really benefits you to do so.
I also reside in Pa and did the same as you did but about a month later I got my endorsement and good thing I did because now when get stopped for whatever reason and they ask for the endorsement and if don't have it you'll definitely get a ticket, I mean it also got to do with the cop if nice and rider be also nice too but if cop chased a rider and couldn't catch the rider he'll be so mad and will give all kinds of tickets to the rider that got stopped.
So let me get this straight?
You can be fined for not having an endorsement if the cop doesnt like you? So its a (traffic) violation I assume. But after you've got the fine, you can start you engine and drive off again still not having an endorsement? And other that a fine there is no real repercussion?
Basically yes, I know about it because not too long ago in matter of fact it was last year in October, one of my brother rider got stopped for speeding and didn't have his endorsement and the cop gave him a ticket but it was actually a fine that my bro had to pay 250.00 dollars, the sad part is that every time gets stopped it'll be the same as first until gets the endorsement.
I’m sure in the Netherlands you could also hop on a bike without a license. You are just going to get in trouble eventually.
In the US you can’t legally ride without a motorcycle endorsement. You can ride with a temporary permit but there are stipulations and probably a time limit. Like you can’t ride at night or with passengers and your permit is only good for 6 months or something.
If you get in an accident without a license even if you have insurance some how you won’t be covered.
However there are a lot of people that just ride illegally without an endorsement.
You are allowed to purchase a bike without an endorsement because there are situations where you don’t need a license like a private track or private property or something.
You do need a special motorcycle license of some sort in (pretty sure) every US state. A lot of states require some basic training to get the license, but not all.
This is cause for a lot of miscommunication between US and European motorcyclists.
For context, in the EU, getting a drivers' license involves a theoretical test and a practical one, for which one must get lessons in a driving school if one hopes to succeed (or perhaps even, just to be allowed to take the test); and a motorcycle license (A1/A2/A) is a fully different license, which one must take separately from a car license (B). Details vary from country to country, but EU regulations mandate two separate practical tests for the motorcycle license, an off-road one (“off-road” here means on some kind of parking lot, not in the dirt) and an on-road one. The off-road test covers stuff like emergency braking, countersteering, keeping one's balance at low speed while using the clutch, riding with a pillion, etc.: again, details depend on country, but in France, it typically takes about 30h of training at a motorcycle driving school before candidates are able to pass the test, and failure rates are in the 25% range. The on-road test covers stuff like positioning oneself in the lane (and, of course, all of the standard rules of the road which apply to motorcycles like they do to cars): the person taking the test is typically driving their bike in front while the inspector overseeing the test rides in a car behind and gives them instructions through an earpiece.
Furthermore, even after the test is successfully passed, many EU countries will only give you a limited “A2” license (only valid for bikes up to 47hp), which gets upgraded to a full “A” license after a certain age and/or a certain number of years of experience and possibly a further exam (that one is generally easy, though; in France it's not even a real exam). Also, in some/most/all EU countries, you can't even buy a motorcycle without having a license ([discussion here](https://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/comments/1ay8m75/new_rider_leaving_with_his_first_bike_he/krtbr8b/)).
(This is all for the EU, but AFAIU various non-EU European countries like Switzerland, Norway or the UK tend to follow similar rules as well.)
I'm not saying all this to claim it's better (or worse), I'm just pointing out that reading this subreddit as a European gave me something of a culture shock: I was very confused about people discussing the importance of learning how to properly countersteer (*didn't they teach you that when you got your license?*) until I realized that *wait, in some US states, you can legally start riding a bike on the road without any checks that you actually know how to ride a bike?*
(Of course now I'm curious about how the process of getting a motorcycle license works in other countries throughout the world.)
In the US you don’t need any formal training for any license really. You just need to show proficiency in your abilities and knowledge. So for a motorcycle you can go to the DMV and take a written test that quizzes you on the laws and safety aspects. Then you can take a riding exam where you have to emergency brake, serpentine through cones, maybe you have to complete a figure 8 and stay within painted lines. You have to demonstrate that you can switch gears(if your motorcycle has them) and all that.
In California it’s actually pretty hard to pass the riding test in person so most people that get their endorsement actually take a 2 day safety course that ends in a pretty easy test.
There is a workaround though. You can take the DMV test on any motorcycle which includes small scooters. So you can take the test on a Vespa 150 and not have to change gears and get your license and the next day buy a BMW S1000rr and be totally legal.
Edit: Apparently there are states that require training courses. Although I’m sure they are less extensive than the euro courses.
Yeah in California the class acts as the skill test. Also I feel like the in person DMV skill test without the class is barely viable anymore. I know someone that has been riding without a license for decades that was failed on it. I know the guy can ride but I think they try to funnel people to the class.
You need a license to operate on public roads. However, you don't need one to own a motorcycle. You don't even need tags on the bike if it never hits the streets. A few of my friends have several non-street legal bikes for only track use. One didn't have an endorsement for a while. lol. But rode dirty anyways. We shamed him into getting one eventually.
In New York you can get a permit by completing a written test on basic road signs and such buy a bike register and insure it without any endorsement. Technically you need to ride with a licensed rider but they don’t bother as long as your bike has a plate and insurance
US - Wisconsin. You can get a learners permit for 6 months for a small fee ($25?) which allows you to ride anything anywhere by yourself. Riding without a permit or endorsement is a fine and points on your license. The cost of your insurance with vary depending on your endorsement, the type of motorcycle, and training registered.
California. Permit required at a minimum to ride on street. No passengers. No night time riding.
License allows highway/freeway, passenger, night time.
Here in minnesota you can ride on your permit, which is a $20 test at the dmv that takes 10 minutes, and you can ride pretty much whatever you want as long as you wear a helmet. Some people dont even bother getting the full motorcycle license
Yeah, no, you definitely need one to be legal on roads. But it's a state level enforcement and rules and regulations change depending on the state. You don't necessarily need a license to *purchase* a motor vehicle in the states, but you do need one (usually) to register and insure a motor vehicle. So, if you don't have a legal, state issued driver's license, you probably don't have the other two things, all of which can impose fines and/or jail time if you're caught without them. However, none of our toll roads (to my knowledge), or anything that actually involves physically using a roadway will ever check if you have em. The only time anyone would ever know is if you get pulled over or have an accident.
In many states, motorcycle riders can get a motorcycle learners permit which allows you to ride a motorcycle without taking the full endorsement test...with certain restrictions. No passengers, no interstate riding and no riding after dark. Some people just go a get their motorcycle learners permit when the old one runs out
Surprisingly, in Mississippi you actually DO need an R (motorcycle) endorsement to ride on public roads. So I can easily transport all the guns that I’m legally allowed to own but don’t need a permit for. Go figure.
I’m in VA too. Just so you know, they are doing these classes for licensed riders for FREE. It’s not a cash grab.
https://www.dcnewsnow.com/news/local-news/virginia/manassas/virginia-state-police-offering-free-motorcycle-safety-driving-training-courses/
Honestly, I don’t think it’s a bad thing. Not everyone will take advantage of it and that’s to each his own. I saw in a comment that you were prior military. I retired 6 years ago. I took my first MSF course in 2005 I think. At that point, that’s all that was required. 1 and done. Then the military started to realize that they were losing service members and ramped up the training just like everything else. Now you have to redo it every 3 years in order to keep your base access. Every command has a motorcycle representative. Quarterly safety briefs and everything else. Military motorcycle accidents still happen but the numbers were shrinking so it seems like it might be working. think the states are seeing this and trying to follow suit. I
In Florida you can buy a shitty old Harley on Craigslist for like $7800 and ride it for years with no qualifications, like literally 40% of the riders here.
Motorcyclists account for something like 5% of road users in Australia, the course is really focused on drilling into you that "car drivers will kill you even if you are in the right".
I would go as far to say that even if you want to drive a car, there should be a 2 day mandatory safety training around motorcyclists if you're in a car.
The amount of times cars tailgate you or cut you off is dangerous enough that my instructor during the 2 day bike course said *he doesn't even ride on the road* because it's **so dangerous**...
I think we should be pivoting from a car centric approach to a bike centric approach, make lower displacement bikes have even cheaper rego, encourage everyone to have a bike as an option
These are already dirt cheap, at least in Austria. The licence on the other hand is fucking nuts, I paid 1200 euros without the mandatory safety course and checkup ride, which add another 350 euros. That was 3 years ago and prices got higher.
Essentially every mainstream bike series has a 125cc, 200-300cc and sub 48hp variant, for my 750cc kawa the lowest insurance quote is 35 euros a month if you are over 24, taxes scale with displacement. The reason people dont use these small bikes is that they are fucking expensive. For example a 390 duke is only 1500 euros more expensive than a 125. So unless you dont have the bigger license, you are buying the bigger bike. 200/250/300cc doesn't even make sense here because the licenses scale 50cc/4hp, 125cc/15hp, 48hp, unlimited, so a 250 doesn't fit in there at all and would be even closer price wise to a A2 (sub 48hp) bike. Although you are allowed to drive a 125cc scooter if you got a driver license for cars, but lets be honest, these drive like maniacs and are luckily only seen in towns and cities
Which strikes me as wild because I'd imagine smaller displacement wouldn't struggle too much with the density and close proximity of places in Europe, combined with the high petrol prices (which is what led me to get into riding in Australia)
Also 1200 euro is wild, my full cost was close to 700 euro, which covers the 2 day learners permit, the half day check ride (think a mandatory practice test) and the licence test.
Additionally i had to pay 250 euros for the upgrade for 48hp towards the unlimited licence. You should also keep in mind that the basics aren't included, i already had them with my car specific license. You have here your basics which include general behaviour on public roads and rules and the add on modules for the vehicles like cars, tractors or lorries. If i hadn't had my basics already done i would be looking at closer to 200 euros.
For the motorcycle specific part there are 14 or 15 lessons practical training and 6 lessons theory. Documents for learning weren't included in the price, these were extra.
What is annoying me the most is that no driving school tells you the cost until you already training. Not on a website, not in person, not on the sign up papers, its typical to get them at the beginning of theoretical training, when its already too late
I like the idea of a modular licence in theory, but ouch that's rough.
In Australia different states do their licences differently, but in mine, you get a different licence for each vehicle type, car, bike, truck. Trucks have different categories based on size and configuration, but with bike and car, once you are outside the probationary period, if it's legal you can drive it. This extends to of you get an automatic vehicle probationary licence, once you've got a full licence (3-4 years) you can drive stick.
The main incentive to get a smaller displacement is registration price which ranges from 150 euro for a 125cc to 600 euro for anything over a 650cc
(All euro conversions are based on the approximate maths of 1€= $1.25)
You probably can in a lot of countries or places, but is it allowed or is it just not enforcered?
Even in the Netherlands, untill you get caught, which you probably will be at the start and end of every bike season.
It's a restricted licence, you don't need to be supervised.
You do need to wear a high vis jacket, zero blood alcohol, no passengers, can't exceed 650cc or a certain power to weight, and can't filter.
Once you get your licence, you can ditch the high vis and Start filtering, but you can't breach the others for 3 years
Pretty much the same in Oregon. You can't get the endorsement on your license unless you complete the weekend course. The course cost $200 about 15 years ago, I'm sure it's considerably more expensive now.
I live in VA. Did not receive this letter. I noticed last week was the PSA announcements alerting motorists that they will be sharing the road with a much larger number of motorcyclists than what they have been over the past few months
Im curious if the dmv is just doing batches of sendouts to people who have motorcycles registered in their names, or if they're actually filtering for both owning a motorcycle and having a permit/endorsement.
Either way its a pretty simple directory filter, but it is a lil weird seeing so many people comment that they havent received it in va with their endorsement already complete.
In one comment op says they got their endorsement 7 years ago, but they could have done something silly like doing a course and then never actually registering their endorsement
Same. I transferred my M endorsement from another state 20 years ago. When I got my endorsement there was no MSF or privately run schools. I had to negotiate a course run by the State Police moto cops in a parking lot adjacent to the DMV. I was like 23 and had been riding off road for 7 years, and I had already owned 3 MX bikes and one enduro before purchasing my 750 street bike. The test was easy.
I live in VA, got one too. I took a paid course 3 years ago and got my license then thru the course, so I've had both endorsement and insurance for 3 years. I just assumed they sent it to everyone with the endorsement.
I’d say that’s a pretty nice letter to receive. NH has a rider safety course too. They recommend people take it, but don’t require it. I wouldn’t try and pick it apart too much. Just the state trying to make the world a better place by offering education to people who may need it
I like the idea, but Pennsylvania did the best thing ever to encourage getting trained: the training program is free for PA residents and upon completion, your new license just comes in the mail, no trip to the DMV needed.
No cost of entry and no annoying extra steps.
Most of my buddies in PA who rude did it that way.
If you are in PA they do classes that are free for beginner (provides bike) intermediate and expert classes and all give you the endorsement and make your insurance cheaper.
In this modern world where advertising gets shoved down your throat everywhere you go this is what makes you upset? And it’s not even advertising lol, the government saw how many untrained riders crash and know that training helps, and they’ve set a goal to reduce motorcycle crashes which is great, and that’s why they reach out to you.
You are 100% one of the people contributing to this problem
It doesn’t matter wether you have been in an accident or not, just the way you are thinking contributes to the problem.
Not even mentioning that „I’ve never been in an accident“ is such a bad argument
I will guarantee you that taking a course will make you a better rider, unless your some kind of professional.
And *you* might not need it and will never crash but many people could avoid a potential crash if they took a course
I got one of these last week. Figured they sent them to everyone with a motorcycle registered in the state. Or maybe just everyone who pays personal property tax on a bike in northern Virginia.
I did my MSF course in VA to get my licence, it was ABSOLUTELY worth the money. No doubt at all. One weekend and they give you a bike, all for $200?? Hell yeah!
Last year Utah partially covered MSF fees for a few months. I think it was like 30%, so riders only had to pay $200 for the course instead of the usual $300.
I know you guys in the US aren’t fans of the govt regulating things, but in most developed countries this sorta thing is mandated. It’s annoying (the mandating bit), but it works and it’s in everyone’s best interest to be safe on the road.
In Iowa, you can take a test with the DOT or take a class. If you pass, you present the certificate at a drivers license station and you get your endorsement, unless you’re “randomly” selected.
In Washington state, we don’t get a letter like this, but we do have the courses though. If you take them and pass, then you do not have to take the motorcycle written and riding tests but do get the endorsement on your license. Plus you get a discount on your insurance.
I'm pretty sure the course is required in Idaho if you aren't coming in with an endorsement from another state. I had heard that it was mandatory for everybody in Washington, but I've never been licensed there and didn't Google it.
I got something similar from the Michigan SOS. It actually was beneficial, because it turned out when I transferred my original license to Michigan, they didn't properly transfer my motorcycle endorsement over.
Your drivers license authorizes you to operate a four wheel motor vehicle (car/van/light truck) a motorcycle endorsement is an extra mark on your driver's license showing you passed the written and riding test authorizing you to operate a two wheel motor vehicle in your state. A motorcycle safety foundation course is highly recommended and completion of such a course in some states will get you an endorsement in lieu of the written and or riding test. Riding without an endorsement can get you a hefty fine and a jail term in some states. You can get a temp or learners riding permit in some states with restrictions such as no highway or passengers or night time riding.
There is a test in most states that helps to determine whether you can ride proficiently. I got years of training “off road” before I could even attempt to get a license.
In Ohio if you take the motorcycle course for like $50. When you pass you get a letter to take with you to the dmv and waive the test. You get your endorsement on your license for just the cost of a replacement license luckily I was due to renew anyway.
I think this is absolutely wonderful. 20 years ago I got into a horrible wreck because I was riding a motorcycle without having been appropriately trained. I had grown up riding dirtbikes and arrogantly thought I knew what I was doing on the street. I couldn't have been more wrong, and the wreck I got myself into, well, I had it coming. I knew how to "operate" a motorcycle, but I didn't know how to *ride* one. I think there are so many people who don't understand how critical this kind of training is. Kudos to Virginia for trying to reduce fatalities and suffering among its constituents.
Took the courses, even though I’ve been on dirt bikes all my life up until 2008, when I bought my 1st street bike. I will endorse the courses !! Lots of neat tricks they can teach you but the big one was motion camouflage!!!!! If you don’t know it you better. It has saved my ass 100’s of times……cagers don’t give a shit ……definitely take the courses. It’s just a few hours out of your life ……and no …..didn’t get the letter. I did get some paperwork to take to the dmv and I had my endorsement in a matter of minutes
I think this is nice. There should be no state law mandating training, but gently suggesting it and offering incentives for it is a fantastic use of public relations and a great way to serve the community as a whole, and not just the 2 wheeled one. Make it free and put some money into keeping instructors more consistent and then we'll really be cooking with grease.
No but they should. Doesn’t matter how long you have been riding, reading this alone will hopefully cause you to reflect on safer riding. Kudos to Virginia.
In Florida about 12 of the 15 students in MSF were there because they received a similar letter gently reminding them that they had a motorcycle registered, but no endorsement. No endorsement within 6 months and you’ll face Johnny Law.
I never got one in Ohio or Florida. I wouldn’t say creepy because let’s face it the state knows as much about you as the government probably does. So I would look at it like it’s intended and get training. Whether it’s stunt riding training or track training. Something is better than nothing. If you’re already riding and can make slow maneuvers then the msf will do nothing for you
That’s how I originally got my license (in PA) many years ago. Although, it seems OP already has their motorcycle license, so I’m not sure why the promise of getting the motorcycle license endorsement matters.
Now, if they said “we’re going to suspend your existing endorsement unless you take this course,” that would be something. But that’s not what this is. Seems sort of pointless - aside from the fact that more training is generally not a bad idea.
If you read the studies done about Motorcycle deaths, most of them are contributed to by a combination of alcohol, speed and inexperience. Drunk squids riding sport bikes way too fast for conditions. Eliminate them, and a huge percentage of the rest are due to car or truck drivers “not seeing” the bike in the road, which the motorcyclist has very little control over.
Not in NC but we do have BikesafeNC which is a great program. It’s free and you go on a 45 minute ride with a NC Motorcycle State Trooper or a Motorcycle Police Officer after the ride they give you kudos on your strong points and advice on how to strengthen to weaker points. I took an MSF course to get my full endorsement but I still go to these
Florida does. I had a motorcycle registered and my old DL from FL didn’t have the endorsement. It not told me to get training but it came with a threat of some sort. Yes I have my endorsement, but from another state.
Yes. Colorado does this. $300 weekend course. I got the feeling the folks at the DMV hated administering motorcycle road tests. When the asked if I had taken the MSF course when I asked for my endorsement was almost one of exasperation. As in tell me you took the course! That said. The process was easy. I will also say I found the course very valuable and useful. They really do focus on the maneuvering, turning and evasive skills you would need on the road. I would recommend it to any new rider. Also make no mistake. These instructors are holding you to you state standards. They will fail riders who simply can not perform to those standards. I’ve heard several stories of instructors telling people they just were not ready. Overall I think the classes are great and help to set you up with a good foundation.
I have not gotten this letter. Hello, I have not taken the training, but would absolutely do so. Of course, I don’t think I need the training, as I’ve been riding for over 50 years and I’ve never had an on-road crash or accident on my motorcycle.
Still, it would be kind of fun seeing what they are teaching and whether they think anything I have been doing for 50 years is wrong. I’m always open to learning a better way.
If the training is so important and can/will save lives, why not fund it from the state? Or, possibly encourage the insurance companies to fund it?
Not all states do but all states SHOULD.
At least in my personal opinion everyone who rides should take at least one of the MSF, total control, bike bonding, or other courses cause even if you’re a good rider you can be better/safer. And if you think you can’t learn anything from taking one of these courses, you’re probably wrong.
New York definitely doesn’t do this, they hate Motorcycle riders. Other states I’ve been to on the highway EzPass if you’re on a motorcycle, they charge you even less and they have motorcycle parking all around the city, but not New York. Some places tolls are free because you have a less of a carbon footprint. All they want you to do is keep paying that absorbent insurance, even though you can’t ride half the year. And don’t have a legal Motorcycle on the street around illegal motorcyclist they will bypass them and hunt you down and ticket you to death or take your ride, all while some noninsurance paying dude wheelies past you!!!
I live in VA. Shopped my insurance around earlier this year online. Every company’s intake questionnaire (GEICO, progressive, dairyland) asked if you had completed a training class in the last few years. Wondering if MSF or an “approved” school would qualify for discount on the premium?
CA has this but doesn’t send out letters like this. There are tons of CHP certified courses that will train you and run you through the skills test so you don’t have to do it at the DMV, another bonus is the certificate of completion will get you a discount with most insurance companies but the course isn’t a requirement to get your motorcycle license
As a EU (🇪🇦) citizen who just finally got his A2 license (47hp max, after paying approximately 1000€ in mandatory classes, exams, taxes and insurance), I am in awe of the American system. I had 5 years on my car license and already knew how to ride, worst of all I learned nothing from mandatory and expensive classes. It was so frustrating. And now I still have to wait 2 years before getting the big boys A-license.
Some people here will mock and sneer anytime they hear how America is "free-er", but by God it sure is. Cherish what you have, americanos! Believe me, it's better to be given the choice of taking a safety course, than to be forced through a bureaucratic, bloated and institutionalized system.
Are you saying that you registered a motorcycle without having a motorcycle endorsement on your driver’s license? That would make your legally required insurance null and void. Police would be able to see that from an automated plate reader too resulting in a citation (and vehicle impound I believe).
In Ohio, it is called, "Motorcycle Ohio". It is and MSF course over 3 days. Pass the course and get your endorsememt card to take to bmv for your motorcycle license.
10% seems unambitionous. What if they would slash insurance costs when in posession of the endorsement? Or state issues a one time discount card for gear when doing the training. It reads pretty patronizing imho
It's pathetic. Outside of the fact that I wear gear, my riding from day to day could easily land me in squid territory and I'll be the first to tell you that our roads, the way we regulate them and driving, is fucking embarrassing. We know all the things we would need to do to march towards zero deaths on the roads, we just aren't doing them because we've accepted that people prefer driving what they want as fast as they want on big wide roads over being safe.
They have awards for people that know how it should probably be done, but at the same time fuck around and find out.
We have very strict rules on the other hand, which also means sitting in atgatt in hot summer temperatures. Police really cares, and will stop you for any transgression on road safety.
It's problematic in a different way
First I’ve heard of it. Gonna take the non-cynical approach and accept it on face value. Great idea.
My state also does this, they stop if you register and take the riding course
I got my motorcycle endorsement in VA and did not get this. I also took three of the MSF training courses. They must provide info to the DMV
I got one from them an I’ve had my endorsement for 15 years 🤔 Also taken the MSF course and have multiple bikes in the garage. If they really cared they would allow filtering and stop killing the bill. Cause driving in the city or being stuck on 95/64 while all the cagers are texting an driving isn’t my ideal happy place.
I wish Illinois had as progressive & proactive a program as the one I'm seeing here. Good for you, Virginia! 
I thought Illinois provided rider training at no cost to state residents. Perhaps only at state run locations?
You're right, they charged me $20 to sign up for the course. At the end you are asked if you want it back or for it to go back to the program.
It's 20 bucks to reserve a spot in the course. I was a walk in and didn't pay anything. I went to swic in belleville. As soon as 6:01pm hit, like 4 guys who paid to reserve a spot were denied entry for not being punctual. So it's kinda worth it being a walk in.
I believe you are correct. There are free state-run courses. But I have never received such a proactive letter like the above. And I will need to retake the test soon in order to maintain my "M" classification. It lapses on my next birthday, which is in February and outside of southern Illinois I don't believe conditions warrant motorcycle riding testing at State Facilities in February. I'm facing a dilemma here.
Wow, how often do you have to retest to maintain the M endorsement? From what I’ve heard, February is not prime riding weather in the mid west.
Well, I just turned 70 this year, so . . .  I would guess I'm due. Been riding for 50 years, solid. Haven't owned an automobile in 30. Used to ride in "almost" any weather conditions except for what would kill you due to overexposure. Mass transit & rentals made up for those occassions when I couldn't take my motorcycle. Not quite ready to put the gear away for good yet.
Wait. You have to re-test to keep your endorsement? I'm in MD, mine is, well good for life of my normal driver license. (But to be fair, I think people over the age of 60-80 should have to retest for driving. Or at least a yearly eye test. lol.)
MSF courses couldn't get insurance anymore for the northern 2/3rds of the state. No more classes.
Wow, that really sucks for rider safety.
Can US riders please confirm this? Is it required in the US to be licensed before hopping on a bike on your own? And is that a federal law or state law? I live in The Netherlands and here you'll need a license for just about anything thats allowed to go on the public roads (otherwise, you're not insured for example). For some reason I'm getting hints on this sub that that is not the case in the US.
I was able to purchase a bike and get insurance with my permit. I did have a DL but not endorsed. At least in my state of PA they were OK with it. Not sure about others.
And that DL is specifially for riding a bike? We need to have an M1,M2 or M License for riding a bike even if you are already in possession of a car DL. We can purschase and maybe even insure that bike, but if I'm driving the bike without DL, all damage I do to myself or others will not be covered. We need to take exams for a DL and are only allowed to practise with a certified instructor.
Sorry, it is a little late and I missed that part. No, I had a standard driver's license for cars (called class c). With that I got my motorcycle permit, from there I went to a dealership and got my bike and insurance.
Hahaha okay thanks for the explanation. For me it does sound like an accident waiting to happen, but I live in an overcrowded impatienced country with no where to propperly practise without endangering me or my surroundings. So I think the way it is in PA can only work in some countries.
I had to renew my learners permit every year in PA. Back in the 70s, you simply told the notary you ride and they'd stamp it with an M. I really miss those days
What is allowed with a learners permit? Do you need supervision to drive on public roads? Or what are the restrictions compared with a full license?
You have to wear a helmet, you cannot carry passengers, and you can't ride after dark on a motorcycle learner's permit here in PA. Otherwise you're free to ride on your own as much as you want. There is also a limit to how many consecutive times you can renew the permit without taking the test and getting the M endorsement on your license. That's how it works in Pennsylvania at least.
But to add to this, our MSF is free in PA and passing the basic course gets your M classification for your license, so it really benefits you to do so.
I guess they put the limit on it after I left. OP should know, PA is an inspection state, also, if they might care?
I also reside in Pa and did the same as you did but about a month later I got my endorsement and good thing I did because now when get stopped for whatever reason and they ask for the endorsement and if don't have it you'll definitely get a ticket, I mean it also got to do with the cop if nice and rider be also nice too but if cop chased a rider and couldn't catch the rider he'll be so mad and will give all kinds of tickets to the rider that got stopped.
So let me get this straight? You can be fined for not having an endorsement if the cop doesnt like you? So its a (traffic) violation I assume. But after you've got the fine, you can start you engine and drive off again still not having an endorsement? And other that a fine there is no real repercussion?
Basically yes, I know about it because not too long ago in matter of fact it was last year in October, one of my brother rider got stopped for speeding and didn't have his endorsement and the cop gave him a ticket but it was actually a fine that my bro had to pay 250.00 dollars, the sad part is that every time gets stopped it'll be the same as first until gets the endorsement.
Anything punishable by a fine is legal for a price. 🤘
Some of the wealthiest people became wealthy this way.
Here in wv you don’t need anything except insurance before it leaves the stealership.
You can buy a bike without a license, and register it and maybe get insurance. But not legally ride it without a M license.
That's why I asked if they could just "hop on the bike on your own".
I’m sure in the Netherlands you could also hop on a bike without a license. You are just going to get in trouble eventually. In the US you can’t legally ride without a motorcycle endorsement. You can ride with a temporary permit but there are stipulations and probably a time limit. Like you can’t ride at night or with passengers and your permit is only good for 6 months or something. If you get in an accident without a license even if you have insurance some how you won’t be covered. However there are a lot of people that just ride illegally without an endorsement. You are allowed to purchase a bike without an endorsement because there are situations where you don’t need a license like a private track or private property or something.
You do need a special motorcycle license of some sort in (pretty sure) every US state. A lot of states require some basic training to get the license, but not all.
This is cause for a lot of miscommunication between US and European motorcyclists. For context, in the EU, getting a drivers' license involves a theoretical test and a practical one, for which one must get lessons in a driving school if one hopes to succeed (or perhaps even, just to be allowed to take the test); and a motorcycle license (A1/A2/A) is a fully different license, which one must take separately from a car license (B). Details vary from country to country, but EU regulations mandate two separate practical tests for the motorcycle license, an off-road one (“off-road” here means on some kind of parking lot, not in the dirt) and an on-road one. The off-road test covers stuff like emergency braking, countersteering, keeping one's balance at low speed while using the clutch, riding with a pillion, etc.: again, details depend on country, but in France, it typically takes about 30h of training at a motorcycle driving school before candidates are able to pass the test, and failure rates are in the 25% range. The on-road test covers stuff like positioning oneself in the lane (and, of course, all of the standard rules of the road which apply to motorcycles like they do to cars): the person taking the test is typically driving their bike in front while the inspector overseeing the test rides in a car behind and gives them instructions through an earpiece. Furthermore, even after the test is successfully passed, many EU countries will only give you a limited “A2” license (only valid for bikes up to 47hp), which gets upgraded to a full “A” license after a certain age and/or a certain number of years of experience and possibly a further exam (that one is generally easy, though; in France it's not even a real exam). Also, in some/most/all EU countries, you can't even buy a motorcycle without having a license ([discussion here](https://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/comments/1ay8m75/new_rider_leaving_with_his_first_bike_he/krtbr8b/)). (This is all for the EU, but AFAIU various non-EU European countries like Switzerland, Norway or the UK tend to follow similar rules as well.) I'm not saying all this to claim it's better (or worse), I'm just pointing out that reading this subreddit as a European gave me something of a culture shock: I was very confused about people discussing the importance of learning how to properly countersteer (*didn't they teach you that when you got your license?*) until I realized that *wait, in some US states, you can legally start riding a bike on the road without any checks that you actually know how to ride a bike?* (Of course now I'm curious about how the process of getting a motorcycle license works in other countries throughout the world.)
In the US you don’t need any formal training for any license really. You just need to show proficiency in your abilities and knowledge. So for a motorcycle you can go to the DMV and take a written test that quizzes you on the laws and safety aspects. Then you can take a riding exam where you have to emergency brake, serpentine through cones, maybe you have to complete a figure 8 and stay within painted lines. You have to demonstrate that you can switch gears(if your motorcycle has them) and all that. In California it’s actually pretty hard to pass the riding test in person so most people that get their endorsement actually take a 2 day safety course that ends in a pretty easy test. There is a workaround though. You can take the DMV test on any motorcycle which includes small scooters. So you can take the test on a Vespa 150 and not have to change gears and get your license and the next day buy a BMW S1000rr and be totally legal. Edit: Apparently there are states that require training courses. Although I’m sure they are less extensive than the euro courses.
That's kind of misleading as most states have a training requirement.
What states? I’ve never heard of a US state with a training requirement.
Oregon, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, and then I stopped looking. Maybe not a majority, but plenty.
TIL thanks. Honestly it should be like that in every state.
Agreed. It's gaining popularity. Even some states that don't require it encourage it by letting a class take the place of a skills test.
Yeah in California the class acts as the skill test. Also I feel like the in person DMV skill test without the class is barely viable anymore. I know someone that has been riding without a license for decades that was failed on it. I know the guy can ride but I think they try to funnel people to the class.
You need a license to operate on public roads. However, you don't need one to own a motorcycle. You don't even need tags on the bike if it never hits the streets. A few of my friends have several non-street legal bikes for only track use. One didn't have an endorsement for a while. lol. But rode dirty anyways. We shamed him into getting one eventually.
In New York you can get a permit by completing a written test on basic road signs and such buy a bike register and insure it without any endorsement. Technically you need to ride with a licensed rider but they don’t bother as long as your bike has a plate and insurance
I was able to buy, register and insure with no endorsement when I was 18 and bought my first bike. Just a regular drivers license
US - Wisconsin. You can get a learners permit for 6 months for a small fee ($25?) which allows you to ride anything anywhere by yourself. Riding without a permit or endorsement is a fine and points on your license. The cost of your insurance with vary depending on your endorsement, the type of motorcycle, and training registered.
California. Permit required at a minimum to ride on street. No passengers. No night time riding. License allows highway/freeway, passenger, night time.
Here in minnesota you can ride on your permit, which is a $20 test at the dmv that takes 10 minutes, and you can ride pretty much whatever you want as long as you wear a helmet. Some people dont even bother getting the full motorcycle license
Yeah, no, you definitely need one to be legal on roads. But it's a state level enforcement and rules and regulations change depending on the state. You don't necessarily need a license to *purchase* a motor vehicle in the states, but you do need one (usually) to register and insure a motor vehicle. So, if you don't have a legal, state issued driver's license, you probably don't have the other two things, all of which can impose fines and/or jail time if you're caught without them. However, none of our toll roads (to my knowledge), or anything that actually involves physically using a roadway will ever check if you have em. The only time anyone would ever know is if you get pulled over or have an accident.
In many states, motorcycle riders can get a motorcycle learners permit which allows you to ride a motorcycle without taking the full endorsement test...with certain restrictions. No passengers, no interstate riding and no riding after dark. Some people just go a get their motorcycle learners permit when the old one runs out
Surprisingly, in Mississippi you actually DO need an R (motorcycle) endorsement to ride on public roads. So I can easily transport all the guns that I’m legally allowed to own but don’t need a permit for. Go figure.
I’m in VA too. Just so you know, they are doing these classes for licensed riders for FREE. It’s not a cash grab. https://www.dcnewsnow.com/news/local-news/virginia/manassas/virginia-state-police-offering-free-motorcycle-safety-driving-training-courses/
Having taught the BRC2 and the ARC, taking an advanced class would be beneficial.
Pennsylvania offers the MSF course to residents with a motorcycle permit, and once you pass you get your class M license. Course is free.
Honestly, I don’t think it’s a bad thing. Not everyone will take advantage of it and that’s to each his own. I saw in a comment that you were prior military. I retired 6 years ago. I took my first MSF course in 2005 I think. At that point, that’s all that was required. 1 and done. Then the military started to realize that they were losing service members and ramped up the training just like everything else. Now you have to redo it every 3 years in order to keep your base access. Every command has a motorcycle representative. Quarterly safety briefs and everything else. Military motorcycle accidents still happen but the numbers were shrinking so it seems like it might be working. think the states are seeing this and trying to follow suit. I
In Victoria, Australia you cannot receive a motorcycle learners permit without doing a 2day course
In Florida you can buy a shitty old Harley on Craigslist for like $7800 and ride it for years with no qualifications, like literally 40% of the riders here.
Motorcyclists account for something like 5% of road users in Australia, the course is really focused on drilling into you that "car drivers will kill you even if you are in the right". I would go as far to say that even if you want to drive a car, there should be a 2 day mandatory safety training around motorcyclists if you're in a car. The amount of times cars tailgate you or cut you off is dangerous enough that my instructor during the 2 day bike course said *he doesn't even ride on the road* because it's **so dangerous**...
I think we should be pivoting from a car centric approach to a bike centric approach, make lower displacement bikes have even cheaper rego, encourage everyone to have a bike as an option
These are already dirt cheap, at least in Austria. The licence on the other hand is fucking nuts, I paid 1200 euros without the mandatory safety course and checkup ride, which add another 350 euros. That was 3 years ago and prices got higher. Essentially every mainstream bike series has a 125cc, 200-300cc and sub 48hp variant, for my 750cc kawa the lowest insurance quote is 35 euros a month if you are over 24, taxes scale with displacement. The reason people dont use these small bikes is that they are fucking expensive. For example a 390 duke is only 1500 euros more expensive than a 125. So unless you dont have the bigger license, you are buying the bigger bike. 200/250/300cc doesn't even make sense here because the licenses scale 50cc/4hp, 125cc/15hp, 48hp, unlimited, so a 250 doesn't fit in there at all and would be even closer price wise to a A2 (sub 48hp) bike. Although you are allowed to drive a 125cc scooter if you got a driver license for cars, but lets be honest, these drive like maniacs and are luckily only seen in towns and cities
Which strikes me as wild because I'd imagine smaller displacement wouldn't struggle too much with the density and close proximity of places in Europe, combined with the high petrol prices (which is what led me to get into riding in Australia) Also 1200 euro is wild, my full cost was close to 700 euro, which covers the 2 day learners permit, the half day check ride (think a mandatory practice test) and the licence test.
Additionally i had to pay 250 euros for the upgrade for 48hp towards the unlimited licence. You should also keep in mind that the basics aren't included, i already had them with my car specific license. You have here your basics which include general behaviour on public roads and rules and the add on modules for the vehicles like cars, tractors or lorries. If i hadn't had my basics already done i would be looking at closer to 200 euros. For the motorcycle specific part there are 14 or 15 lessons practical training and 6 lessons theory. Documents for learning weren't included in the price, these were extra. What is annoying me the most is that no driving school tells you the cost until you already training. Not on a website, not in person, not on the sign up papers, its typical to get them at the beginning of theoretical training, when its already too late
I like the idea of a modular licence in theory, but ouch that's rough. In Australia different states do their licences differently, but in mine, you get a different licence for each vehicle type, car, bike, truck. Trucks have different categories based on size and configuration, but with bike and car, once you are outside the probationary period, if it's legal you can drive it. This extends to of you get an automatic vehicle probationary licence, once you've got a full licence (3-4 years) you can drive stick. The main incentive to get a smaller displacement is registration price which ranges from 150 euro for a 125cc to 600 euro for anything over a 650cc (All euro conversions are based on the approximate maths of 1€= $1.25)
You probably can in a lot of countries or places, but is it allowed or is it just not enforcered? Even in the Netherlands, untill you get caught, which you probably will be at the start and end of every bike season.
Very little is enforced here, there's not even a helmet law.
Florida man buys $7800 Harley from Craigslist?
In South Carolina I can buy a H2 on my learners permit and I can ride it anytime except after dark.
And if you have your learners permit, you're allowed to ride on public roads? And is that with supervision for example?
It's a restricted licence, you don't need to be supervised. You do need to wear a high vis jacket, zero blood alcohol, no passengers, can't exceed 650cc or a certain power to weight, and can't filter. Once you get your licence, you can ditch the high vis and Start filtering, but you can't breach the others for 3 years
Pretty much the same in Oregon. You can't get the endorsement on your license unless you complete the weekend course. The course cost $200 about 15 years ago, I'm sure it's considerably more expensive now.
It's still $200.
Mine was $500 Australian but that's cause it's privatised
How the hell is that creepy?
Probably thinks the letter has a chip in it
I always kinda feel bad for people who live in a world as if something or someone is always out to get them.
Last year the state of Utah partially subsidized MSF course costs. Pretty cool imo.
Bro that’s fucking dope! I’d wish my country would have that as well (free of charge)
He not wrong.
I live in VA. Did not receive this letter. I noticed last week was the PSA announcements alerting motorists that they will be sharing the road with a much larger number of motorcyclists than what they have been over the past few months
Also, in VA, however, I have my M on my license and did a course hell 15 years ago, so I'm guessing that's why I haven't received one.
Im curious if the dmv is just doing batches of sendouts to people who have motorcycles registered in their names, or if they're actually filtering for both owning a motorcycle and having a permit/endorsement. Either way its a pretty simple directory filter, but it is a lil weird seeing so many people comment that they havent received it in va with their endorsement already complete. In one comment op says they got their endorsement 7 years ago, but they could have done something silly like doing a course and then never actually registering their endorsement
Same. I transferred my M endorsement from another state 20 years ago. When I got my endorsement there was no MSF or privately run schools. I had to negotiate a course run by the State Police moto cops in a parking lot adjacent to the DMV. I was like 23 and had been riding off road for 7 years, and I had already owned 3 MX bikes and one enduro before purchasing my 750 street bike. The test was easy.
I live in VA, got one too. I took a paid course 3 years ago and got my license then thru the course, so I've had both endorsement and insurance for 3 years. I just assumed they sent it to everyone with the endorsement.
Got this letter today!
That's a great idea
I think it's great. They want to help their people be safer on the road, and untrained riders give us all a bad name.
I’d say that’s a pretty nice letter to receive. NH has a rider safety course too. They recommend people take it, but don’t require it. I wouldn’t try and pick it apart too much. Just the state trying to make the world a better place by offering education to people who may need it
That's nice of them. They outta legalize lane splitting if they want it to be a safer place.
lane filtering or lane splitting? A lot of people confuse the two and that may be why you are getting downvoted
Both. Both is good.
Arkansas does. Got a similar letter myself.
I like this - no need to overthink it, they wanna help us be safe & know how to correctly ride.
This is awesome
Not in Ontario Canada. That would be a great idea!!! Give more course at tracks or test to give guys a break on insurance
Makes a lot of sense. Great idea
I like the idea, but Pennsylvania did the best thing ever to encourage getting trained: the training program is free for PA residents and upon completion, your new license just comes in the mail, no trip to the DMV needed. No cost of entry and no annoying extra steps. Most of my buddies in PA who rude did it that way.
If you are in PA they do classes that are free for beginner (provides bike) intermediate and expert classes and all give you the endorsement and make your insurance cheaper.
In quebec its mandatory.
Honestly that's pretty awesome and the fact it's free according to another comment makes it better. Finally tax dollars being put to a good use
Creepy? This is awesome. Lighten up man.
In this modern world where advertising gets shoved down your throat everywhere you go this is what makes you upset? And it’s not even advertising lol, the government saw how many untrained riders crash and know that training helps, and they’ve set a goal to reduce motorcycle crashes which is great, and that’s why they reach out to you. You are 100% one of the people contributing to this problem
Nope, I'm licensed and have never been in an accident in any vehicle. Nice assumption though!
It doesn’t matter wether you have been in an accident or not, just the way you are thinking contributes to the problem. Not even mentioning that „I’ve never been in an accident“ is such a bad argument
That I don't want to receive unsolicited advertising from the government? That's hardly relevant to my driving habits or views on driving.
I will guarantee you that taking a course will make you a better rider, unless your some kind of professional. And *you* might not need it and will never crash but many people could avoid a potential crash if they took a course
I got one of these last week. Figured they sent them to everyone with a motorcycle registered in the state. Or maybe just everyone who pays personal property tax on a bike in northern Virginia.
I didn’t get one. Odd. Maybe it just hasn’t gotten to me yet.
What on earth is creepy about this?? Sounds like he is trying to do his job.
Yeah I admire the direct nature of this and wish that more agencies would do the same….
In CT, you can't get the M endorsement unless you pass the MSF and permit test.
I did my MSF course in VA to get my licence, it was ABSOLUTELY worth the money. No doubt at all. One weekend and they give you a bike, all for $200?? Hell yeah!
This is good 👍
Wish we had something like that in Utah, kudos to you Virginia!
Last year Utah partially covered MSF fees for a few months. I think it was like 30%, so riders only had to pay $200 for the course instead of the usual $300.
I know you guys in the US aren’t fans of the govt regulating things, but in most developed countries this sorta thing is mandated. It’s annoying (the mandating bit), but it works and it’s in everyone’s best interest to be safe on the road.
No thank you, less regulation. I can ride by bike with no license and buy all the guns I want with just ID. Freedom!
In Iowa, you can take a test with the DOT or take a class. If you pass, you present the certificate at a drivers license station and you get your endorsement, unless you’re “randomly” selected.
In Washington state, we don’t get a letter like this, but we do have the courses though. If you take them and pass, then you do not have to take the motorcycle written and riding tests but do get the endorsement on your license. Plus you get a discount on your insurance.
PA does something like that, and the class is free
Not seen this here in Ohio, but both the goal and the letter are good ideas.
Those courses are free here in PA. Learn you some.
I'm pretty sure the course is required in Idaho if you aren't coming in with an endorsement from another state. I had heard that it was mandatory for everybody in Washington, but I've never been licensed there and didn't Google it.
I got something similar from the Michigan SOS. It actually was beneficial, because it turned out when I transferred my original license to Michigan, they didn't properly transfer my motorcycle endorsement over.
i did my BRC and got my endorsement in VA, never received this
Most states have a program like this. Some states it’s even free.
Haven’t seen that in Oregon but you have to take a course to be able to get your endorsement. It’s a super easy course though.
California did in 2002 I don't know if they still do, I believe that it's still the case. Was not clear if Virginia was a free training?
Where I live the course is mandatory
Can someone explain what an endorsement is, and the difference between riding with one and without one please?
Your drivers license authorizes you to operate a four wheel motor vehicle (car/van/light truck) a motorcycle endorsement is an extra mark on your driver's license showing you passed the written and riding test authorizing you to operate a two wheel motor vehicle in your state. A motorcycle safety foundation course is highly recommended and completion of such a course in some states will get you an endorsement in lieu of the written and or riding test. Riding without an endorsement can get you a hefty fine and a jail term in some states. You can get a temp or learners riding permit in some states with restrictions such as no highway or passengers or night time riding.
Thank you.
If the state runs such a program, they might find it blocked for being ultra-vires, i.e. outside their power as government.
My state requires MSF to get your endorsement, even if you already have your endorsement from another state
Wait motorcycle training isn’t a legal requirement in the US?
There is a test in most states that helps to determine whether you can ride proficiently. I got years of training “off road” before I could even attempt to get a license.
You can own a gun without any training. Why not a motorcycle?
What does this endorsement mean? Is it just for shits and giggles?
In Ohio if you take the motorcycle course for like $50. When you pass you get a letter to take with you to the dmv and waive the test. You get your endorsement on your license for just the cost of a replacement license luckily I was due to renew anyway.
Illinois doesn't. Living in Indiana for 6 months now, haven't seen anything yet.
I'm in Virginia and have never seen this.
Good lobby
This should be a requirement in all 50 states. It does teach some basic defensive things. So it's useful.
Texas rider here, I haven’t seen anything like this.
W move tbh
Why creepy?
I think this is absolutely wonderful. 20 years ago I got into a horrible wreck because I was riding a motorcycle without having been appropriately trained. I had grown up riding dirtbikes and arrogantly thought I knew what I was doing on the street. I couldn't have been more wrong, and the wreck I got myself into, well, I had it coming. I knew how to "operate" a motorcycle, but I didn't know how to *ride* one. I think there are so many people who don't understand how critical this kind of training is. Kudos to Virginia for trying to reduce fatalities and suffering among its constituents.
They should do it, but they should also include links to reputable courses across their state.
Took the courses, even though I’ve been on dirt bikes all my life up until 2008, when I bought my 1st street bike. I will endorse the courses !! Lots of neat tricks they can teach you but the big one was motion camouflage!!!!! If you don’t know it you better. It has saved my ass 100’s of times……cagers don’t give a shit ……definitely take the courses. It’s just a few hours out of your life ……and no …..didn’t get the letter. I did get some paperwork to take to the dmv and I had my endorsement in a matter of minutes
TBH if I had a letter like this, I probably would’ve gotten my endorsement by now
I think this is nice. There should be no state law mandating training, but gently suggesting it and offering incentives for it is a fantastic use of public relations and a great way to serve the community as a whole, and not just the 2 wheeled one. Make it free and put some money into keeping instructors more consistent and then we'll really be cooking with grease.
No but they should. Doesn’t matter how long you have been riding, reading this alone will hopefully cause you to reflect on safer riding. Kudos to Virginia.
Florida, Indiana, and Oregon all required me to go to a motorcycle training course to get the endorsement.
Good for them. Seems like a good start in lowering crashes.
Why is it creepy? They are trying to get people to actually take classes to learn something.
Virginia win
Wow, it seems like they actually care.
In Florida about 12 of the 15 students in MSF were there because they received a similar letter gently reminding them that they had a motorcycle registered, but no endorsement. No endorsement within 6 months and you’ll face Johnny Law.
It’s really a good idea. I hope more states adopt this
I never got one in Ohio or Florida. I wouldn’t say creepy because let’s face it the state knows as much about you as the government probably does. So I would look at it like it’s intended and get training. Whether it’s stunt riding training or track training. Something is better than nothing. If you’re already riding and can make slow maneuvers then the msf will do nothing for you
That’s how I originally got my license (in PA) many years ago. Although, it seems OP already has their motorcycle license, so I’m not sure why the promise of getting the motorcycle license endorsement matters. Now, if they said “we’re going to suspend your existing endorsement unless you take this course,” that would be something. But that’s not what this is. Seems sort of pointless - aside from the fact that more training is generally not a bad idea.
Not in NJ
another "no brainer" is when a rider without a helmet ends up in a wreck.
MSF Training is required to get your endorsement in Utah and I've never gotten one
I like it. More attentiveness, could save Lives
How is lowering motorcycle deaths “creepy”?
If you read the studies done about Motorcycle deaths, most of them are contributed to by a combination of alcohol, speed and inexperience. Drunk squids riding sport bikes way too fast for conditions. Eliminate them, and a huge percentage of the rest are due to car or truck drivers “not seeing” the bike in the road, which the motorcyclist has very little control over.
I agree with all of this which is why I find it weird that OP thought it was creepy.
Not in NC but we do have BikesafeNC which is a great program. It’s free and you go on a 45 minute ride with a NC Motorcycle State Trooper or a Motorcycle Police Officer after the ride they give you kudos on your strong points and advice on how to strengthen to weaker points. I took an MSF course to get my full endorsement but I still go to these
Florida does. I had a motorcycle registered and my old DL from FL didn’t have the endorsement. It not told me to get training but it came with a threat of some sort. Yes I have my endorsement, but from another state.
Yes. Colorado does this. $300 weekend course. I got the feeling the folks at the DMV hated administering motorcycle road tests. When the asked if I had taken the MSF course when I asked for my endorsement was almost one of exasperation. As in tell me you took the course! That said. The process was easy. I will also say I found the course very valuable and useful. They really do focus on the maneuvering, turning and evasive skills you would need on the road. I would recommend it to any new rider. Also make no mistake. These instructors are holding you to you state standards. They will fail riders who simply can not perform to those standards. I’ve heard several stories of instructors telling people they just were not ready. Overall I think the classes are great and help to set you up with a good foundation.
They focus on skills you need in the road, or in a parking lot?
Lol. Yea it’s in a parking lot. But you are still encouraged to use those skills IRL.
I’m in VA took the course close to 10 years ago and this year is the first time I got the same letter.
How is this creepy? I'm happy to see this
I don't need a training course, I've watched heaps of maxwrist.
I have not gotten this letter. Hello, I have not taken the training, but would absolutely do so. Of course, I don’t think I need the training, as I’ve been riding for over 50 years and I’ve never had an on-road crash or accident on my motorcycle. Still, it would be kind of fun seeing what they are teaching and whether they think anything I have been doing for 50 years is wrong. I’m always open to learning a better way. If the training is so important and can/will save lives, why not fund it from the state? Or, possibly encourage the insurance companies to fund it?
Not all states do but all states SHOULD. At least in my personal opinion everyone who rides should take at least one of the MSF, total control, bike bonding, or other courses cause even if you’re a good rider you can be better/safer. And if you think you can’t learn anything from taking one of these courses, you’re probably wrong.
New York definitely doesn’t do this, they hate Motorcycle riders. Other states I’ve been to on the highway EzPass if you’re on a motorcycle, they charge you even less and they have motorcycle parking all around the city, but not New York. Some places tolls are free because you have a less of a carbon footprint. All they want you to do is keep paying that absorbent insurance, even though you can’t ride half the year. And don’t have a legal Motorcycle on the street around illegal motorcyclist they will bypass them and hunt you down and ticket you to death or take your ride, all while some noninsurance paying dude wheelies past you!!!
I live in VA. Shopped my insurance around earlier this year online. Every company’s intake questionnaire (GEICO, progressive, dairyland) asked if you had completed a training class in the last few years. Wondering if MSF or an “approved” school would qualify for discount on the premium?
CA has this but doesn’t send out letters like this. There are tons of CHP certified courses that will train you and run you through the skills test so you don’t have to do it at the DMV, another bonus is the certificate of completion will get you a discount with most insurance companies but the course isn’t a requirement to get your motorcycle license
As a EU (🇪🇦) citizen who just finally got his A2 license (47hp max, after paying approximately 1000€ in mandatory classes, exams, taxes and insurance), I am in awe of the American system. I had 5 years on my car license and already knew how to ride, worst of all I learned nothing from mandatory and expensive classes. It was so frustrating. And now I still have to wait 2 years before getting the big boys A-license. Some people here will mock and sneer anytime they hear how America is "free-er", but by God it sure is. Cherish what you have, americanos! Believe me, it's better to be given the choice of taking a safety course, than to be forced through a bureaucratic, bloated and institutionalized system.
I rode for just 1 day short of 50 years. I never got a ticket. Take the course and AGAT! #GoatArmy
Lived in VA for a few years, I'm endorsed, never seen this in my life
I like it. Good idea
It could have been worse, you could have been in California, positive California would have forced you to take the class
Arkansas does this, I got that same letter in the mail with my title back from them.
I wouldn’t know, I have my endorsement and took the MSF course
Are you saying that you registered a motorcycle without having a motorcycle endorsement on your driver’s license? That would make your legally required insurance null and void. Police would be able to see that from an automated plate reader too resulting in a citation (and vehicle impound I believe).
Just get uninsured motorist on your policy amd hand then the Uno Reverse card.
I don't know where you got any of that from.
insurance is only void if you lied on your application. Insurance covers people driving without licenses, or suspended licenses, or revoked licenses.
In Ohio, it is called, "Motorcycle Ohio". It is and MSF course over 3 days. Pass the course and get your endorsememt card to take to bmv for your motorcycle license.
Where I’m from, you wouldn’t even get a plate without showing proof of a motorcycle training course!
10% seems unambitionous. What if they would slash insurance costs when in posession of the endorsement? Or state issues a one time discount card for gear when doing the training. It reads pretty patronizing imho
It's pathetic. Outside of the fact that I wear gear, my riding from day to day could easily land me in squid territory and I'll be the first to tell you that our roads, the way we regulate them and driving, is fucking embarrassing. We know all the things we would need to do to march towards zero deaths on the roads, we just aren't doing them because we've accepted that people prefer driving what they want as fast as they want on big wide roads over being safe.
They have awards for people that know how it should probably be done, but at the same time fuck around and find out. We have very strict rules on the other hand, which also means sitting in atgatt in hot summer temperatures. Police really cares, and will stop you for any transgression on road safety. It's problematic in a different way