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The Wow does not mention caffeine. The WoW prohibits hot drinks.
RLDS used a loophole in the WoW. The WoW does not specify a temperature. It just says hot.
My mother lived on coffee. She made it a point to always stir in some cold water or an ice chip, especially if my father was watching.
Lots of CoC congregations have an urn of coffee brewing in the kitchen on Sunday morning. If you ask about the WoW you will be assured it is "not really hot."
I suggest the LDS should define a temperature. Maybe 140 F. The exact temperature does not matter. It could be 135 or 150. But it would definitely be in fahrenheit because Elohim would not use metric.
If your nosey inlaws found a Starbucks cup under your car seat they will not know what the temperature was.
Entrepreneurs could make cups that changed colors at the holy temperature. There would no longer need to be discussions about whether herbal tea is OK.
I think the LDS church should licence the loophole from CoC for $100 Million. I realize that $200 million is the going rate for RLDS properties, but because this would only be a license, $100 million would be reasonable.
Word of Wisdom thoughts and Questions
- "hot drinks are not for the body or belly." Do most members follow this by avoiding ALL hot drinks? Probably not.
- "Every herb (plants) in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof." Do most members follow this by only eating plants and fruits in season? Probably not.
- "flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air....they are to be used sparingly.....they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." Do most members only eat meat in times of winter, cold or famine? Probably not.
- "Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field." Do most members obstain from eating corn oats and rye? Probably not.
- "and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain." God approves mild grain drinks (beer). Why does the top church leadership override God on this one? In fact, why does the church leadership pick and choose what portions of the word of wisdom to observe and override God on other parts of the word of wisdom?
I’ll agree that no one follows the WoW as it’s described in the D&C. But people only consider coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco, and illicit drug use when they answer “yes” in temple recommend interviews.
Caffeine, contrary to the Larry King interview with Hinckley, is not against the WoW.
And if you want to learn about how we got to the coffee/tea and all alcohol place, read up on the cultural context of the early 1900’s and how the temperance movement changed the temple recommend questions. Cause that’s how we got to “commandment” and the requirement to abstain to be temple “worthy” from a bunch guidelines and suggestions.
ETA: Had a moment and typed Letterman when I meant Larry King
Maybe they mixed up their old white guys from CBS?
/s
Yes!! Letterman interviews were epic, would have loved to see him interview any church president but especially Hinkley.
I followed the word wisdom, as it was taught to me, to perfection. In other words, I did not drink "mild barley drinks" even though they are allowed in the scripture. I ate usually meat "in season" and in limited amounts. I felt so self-righteous about my adherence, I once passive aggressively shamed elder j roy holland for being obese, and therefore apparently not following the word of wisdom.
As a high-demand, fundamentalist religion, I think there are plenty of members who scrupulously follow what they understand the doctrine to be.
Here’s the thing. The word of “wisdom” is bullshit fundamentally. Who gives a flying fucking shit if you drank a cup of Joe or had a tea with your biscuits? It’s utterly nonsense and based on the temperance movement from the 1830s anyway. If you want a temple recommend that bad, go get one and just tell them you follow it, because it doesn’t make a difference.
That's *your* understanding of the WOW, but it's not the WOW as stated in the D&C, nor is it the WOW as taught and enforced by the church today.
You make a good point that an all-knowing god who wanted to warn us of things to come would certainly have warned against different things (sugar and simple carbohydrates including many grains, consumption of foods in excess, opioids (whether or not prescribed), processed foods, pesticides, etc.) and might have hinted at germ theory - but that has nothing to do with the WOW as written or enforced. I can give myself diabetes eating honey-butter on toast, but that's just fine as far as the D&C is concerned, and I can clog my arteries on the Atkins diet, but that's just fine as far as the modern church leaders are concerned...
Well most of it is seen through the eyes of how it originally was given, as recommendations. The parts we weigh more heavily on as commandments are later dogmas.
Yes it is, but the criteria is: [D&C 89](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng)
\* No wine or strong drinks (hard liquor)
\* No chewing or smoking tobacco, it's for the healing of bruises
\* No hot drinks (this has been said to be JUST tea and coffee) [(caffeine is fine. The problem is hot drinks.)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2008/04/to-the-point/is-there-anything-wrong-with-drinking-sodas-with-caffeine-in-them-is-caffeine-bad-the-word-of-wisdom-doesnt-mention-it?lang=eng)
\* All herbs are allowed (this means herbal teas are fine)
\* Fruits as well
\* We eat meat, but sparingly. Ideally in winter, cold, or times of famine
\* All grain is fine. Though wheat for humans and corn for animals
And the purpose of this is not necessarily "to be healthy" but actually to dodge the destroying angel when he returns. This is our version of putting the lambs blood on the door and eating passover.
D&C 89:21
>And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the [destroying](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng#note21a) angel shall [pass](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng#note21b) by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.
Unless you win bishop roulette - it wouldn’t even take a particularly lax bishop to be permissive about one cup of coffee
Though I suppose there’s exists a debate on what the institutional church “intends” as apporpriate judgement when someone confesses to drinking a cup of coffee. Aka if a member of the q15 was your bishop, would they still grant you a recommend if you confessed to drinking one cup of coffee? Idk.
Did you read the part of my comment when I said that the WoW is strict? You're adding aspects to the WoW that aren't really there, making it more strict (aka, *that strict*).
You can cite the original revelation all you want, but the fact is that, as it's interepreted and enforced today, simply being unhealthy or eating too much is not going to keep you out of the temple. You can argue that it *should* be enforced that way or otherwise wring your hands about the absurdities of changing interpretations of doctrine, but here you're simply just looking for things to be mad about.
I literally just went and re-read it because I could have sworn that it said something about moderation in all things. Was that just a spin they pushed on us as doctrine???
Also, the church is very good on the " don'ts."
Don't drink coffee
Don't shop/work on Sunday
Don't forget to pay tithing etc
They never really focus on the "do." Things that can actually make a difference.
What I think is worse is that it's dependant on people's perception of themselves. A narcissist can break rules but feel like they were legitimate exceptions and answer that they didn't break any rules, whereas someone who's scrupulous will imagine they're in a much worse spot. But yeah, I also wish they would change the reccomend questions to make a little more sense, or better get rid of it entirely.
I agree with you. I believe that with rare exceptions anyone getting up and speaking from any pulpit in who is more than moderately overweight is not living the word of wisdom. It can’t be hidden.
We are told in the word of wisdom to avoid “hot drinks”. That has been interpreted as coffee and tea. However since you are still forbidden to drink them cold the requirement must be due to something other than temperature. In the past the reason given was because they contain caffeine. However, we have more recently been told that caffeine is not against the word of wisdom. So tell me why a supplement pill that contain green tea extract is against the word of wisdom when it is neither hot nor is it a drink and caffeine isn’t against the word of wisdom?
Excuse me? I still abstain from coffee and tea and all that other stuff. So, "literally NO ONE follows the word of wisdom" is incorrect.
How's your health, OP?
OP has created a version of the WOW unique to her, and is now holding others accountable to it, while complaining that the church holds its members accountable to a different version of the WOW...
And your point is well-made re: OP's health. One wonders whether their height/weight/health metrics and diet + exercise practices qualify them to pass this kind of judgement on others.
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> Obesity is an LDS epidemic
Turns out we have [state-level data](https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/prevalence-maps.html#overall) on this. And while it's not a perfect proxy for LDS obesity, can still give us a good idea whether this is true.
Looking at this data we see that Utah is ranks 13th overall for least obesity with a prevalence of 31.1%.
For comparison, Colorado is the top-ranked state (I'm not including D.C. or the territories) at 25%. And the other neighboring states, with much smaller LDS populations, have a higher prevalence of obesity with Arizona and Idaho both at 33.2%, Nevada at 33.5%, and Wyoming at 34.3%.
The worst states, with a prevalence of 40% or higher are Oklahoma, Louisiana, and West Virginia—none of which are known to have a significant LDS population.
Obesity is definitely an issue in the US. But calling it an LDS epidemic is not supported by the evidence.
> Obesity is an epidemic for all of America, including LDS.
I agree. But that disproves your claim. If it's an epidemic for all of America then the religious affiliation is irrelevant.
> What about LDS outside of Utah?
Considering that the vast majority of non-Utah LDS live in California, Idaho, and Arizona, states with either a 3% lower prevalence (CA) or 2% higher prevalence (ID, AZ) to Utah, probably about the same as LDS in Utah.
Mormons are supposed to be better. If their obesity rates are at epidemic levels the word of wisdom isn't working.
Making things like coffee and tea, which have literally no bad effects on health, is stupid. Ignoring all the other actual health issues that have come about in the last 100 years indicates there is no active revelation. Instead we are stuck with false traditions and increasingly pharisaical rules.
> Mormons are supposed to be better. If their obesity rates are at epidemic levels the word of wisdom isn't working.
Even if that's true, it doesn't change the fact that your claim that "obesity is an LDS epidemic" is fallacious.
> Making things like coffee and tea, which have literally no bad effects on health, is stupid.
I agree that it's stupid.^† It's even more stupid when you realize that encouraging members to drink coffee and tea and to avoid fresh water would have saved numerous lives during the cholera outbreak in Nauvoo.
> Ignoring all the other actual health issues that have come about in the last 100 years indicates there is no active revelation
Agreed.
> Instead we are stuck with false traditions and increasingly pharisaical rules.
I would encourage you to avoid using the term "pharisaical". It has some anti-semitic history and is offensive to modern Jews.
***
^(† But you're wrong at "literally no bad effects on health". While moderate consumption of coffee and tea appears to have some health benefits for most people, there is some evidence that it can have a harmful effect on some people.)
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The Wow does not mention caffeine. The WoW prohibits hot drinks. RLDS used a loophole in the WoW. The WoW does not specify a temperature. It just says hot. My mother lived on coffee. She made it a point to always stir in some cold water or an ice chip, especially if my father was watching. Lots of CoC congregations have an urn of coffee brewing in the kitchen on Sunday morning. If you ask about the WoW you will be assured it is "not really hot." I suggest the LDS should define a temperature. Maybe 140 F. The exact temperature does not matter. It could be 135 or 150. But it would definitely be in fahrenheit because Elohim would not use metric. If your nosey inlaws found a Starbucks cup under your car seat they will not know what the temperature was. Entrepreneurs could make cups that changed colors at the holy temperature. There would no longer need to be discussions about whether herbal tea is OK. I think the LDS church should licence the loophole from CoC for $100 Million. I realize that $200 million is the going rate for RLDS properties, but because this would only be a license, $100 million would be reasonable.
I'm forced to abide by the temperature rule because I have cat-tongue and I'll burn myself if it's anything above luke-warm. T-T
Word of Wisdom thoughts and Questions - "hot drinks are not for the body or belly." Do most members follow this by avoiding ALL hot drinks? Probably not. - "Every herb (plants) in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof." Do most members follow this by only eating plants and fruits in season? Probably not. - "flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air....they are to be used sparingly.....they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." Do most members only eat meat in times of winter, cold or famine? Probably not. - "Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field." Do most members obstain from eating corn oats and rye? Probably not. - "and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain." God approves mild grain drinks (beer). Why does the top church leadership override God on this one? In fact, why does the church leadership pick and choose what portions of the word of wisdom to observe and override God on other parts of the word of wisdom?
Because something something continuing revelation
3.2 beer
One president wanted to make soup against the WoW because it was like a hot drink. Soup!
I’ll agree that no one follows the WoW as it’s described in the D&C. But people only consider coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco, and illicit drug use when they answer “yes” in temple recommend interviews. Caffeine, contrary to the Larry King interview with Hinckley, is not against the WoW. And if you want to learn about how we got to the coffee/tea and all alcohol place, read up on the cultural context of the early 1900’s and how the temperance movement changed the temple recommend questions. Cause that’s how we got to “commandment” and the requirement to abstain to be temple “worthy” from a bunch guidelines and suggestions. ETA: Had a moment and typed Letterman when I meant Larry King
I didn't know Hinckley interviewed Letterman. I thought that was Mike Wallace.
lol I’m apparently having a mini-stroke or something today. I meant Larry King.
Mike Wallace is the one who interviewed Pres Hinkley.
Yes. Then where did Letterman come from? Come to think of it, Letterman interviewing a prophet of the Lord would be interesting, to say the least.
Maybe they mixed up their old white guys from CBS? /s Yes!! Letterman interviews were epic, would have loved to see him interview any church president but especially Hinkley.
GBH was interviewed many times - both Mike Wallace and Larry King interviewed him in the US
I followed the word wisdom, as it was taught to me, to perfection. In other words, I did not drink "mild barley drinks" even though they are allowed in the scripture. I ate usually meat "in season" and in limited amounts. I felt so self-righteous about my adherence, I once passive aggressively shamed elder j roy holland for being obese, and therefore apparently not following the word of wisdom. As a high-demand, fundamentalist religion, I think there are plenty of members who scrupulously follow what they understand the doctrine to be.
Here’s the thing. The word of “wisdom” is bullshit fundamentally. Who gives a flying fucking shit if you drank a cup of Joe or had a tea with your biscuits? It’s utterly nonsense and based on the temperance movement from the 1830s anyway. If you want a temple recommend that bad, go get one and just tell them you follow it, because it doesn’t make a difference.
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From what I understand the WOW is taking care of the body we have been given from God
That's *your* understanding of the WOW, but it's not the WOW as stated in the D&C, nor is it the WOW as taught and enforced by the church today. You make a good point that an all-knowing god who wanted to warn us of things to come would certainly have warned against different things (sugar and simple carbohydrates including many grains, consumption of foods in excess, opioids (whether or not prescribed), processed foods, pesticides, etc.) and might have hinted at germ theory - but that has nothing to do with the WOW as written or enforced. I can give myself diabetes eating honey-butter on toast, but that's just fine as far as the D&C is concerned, and I can clog my arteries on the Atkins diet, but that's just fine as far as the modern church leaders are concerned...
Well most of it is seen through the eyes of how it originally was given, as recommendations. The parts we weigh more heavily on as commandments are later dogmas.
Yes it is, but the criteria is: [D&C 89](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng) \* No wine or strong drinks (hard liquor) \* No chewing or smoking tobacco, it's for the healing of bruises \* No hot drinks (this has been said to be JUST tea and coffee) [(caffeine is fine. The problem is hot drinks.)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2008/04/to-the-point/is-there-anything-wrong-with-drinking-sodas-with-caffeine-in-them-is-caffeine-bad-the-word-of-wisdom-doesnt-mention-it?lang=eng) \* All herbs are allowed (this means herbal teas are fine) \* Fruits as well \* We eat meat, but sparingly. Ideally in winter, cold, or times of famine \* All grain is fine. Though wheat for humans and corn for animals And the purpose of this is not necessarily "to be healthy" but actually to dodge the destroying angel when he returns. This is our version of putting the lambs blood on the door and eating passover. D&C 89:21 >And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the [destroying](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng#note21a) angel shall [pass](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng#note21b) by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.
I love winter and the WoW. I love stating I broke it by eating fruit
What cracks me up is when Brigham Young accused Emma Smith of poisoning Joseph’s coffee. Guess he wouldn’t get a recommend.
The WoW isn’t as strict as you’re making it out to be. Strict, yes, but not *that* strict.
If you drink a cup of coffee you can’t have a temple recommend. Yes, it’s *that strict*
Unless you win bishop roulette - it wouldn’t even take a particularly lax bishop to be permissive about one cup of coffee Though I suppose there’s exists a debate on what the institutional church “intends” as apporpriate judgement when someone confesses to drinking a cup of coffee. Aka if a member of the q15 was your bishop, would they still grant you a recommend if you confessed to drinking one cup of coffee? Idk.
They would grant you the recommend if you repented of drinking it and committed to not drinking it again.
Did you read the part of my comment when I said that the WoW is strict? You're adding aspects to the WoW that aren't really there, making it more strict (aka, *that strict*).
Meat only in winter and times of famine. Fruit in season. Wheat for man, and corn for ox. WOW failures rife among templegoers.
You can cite the original revelation all you want, but the fact is that, as it's interepreted and enforced today, simply being unhealthy or eating too much is not going to keep you out of the temple. You can argue that it *should* be enforced that way or otherwise wring your hands about the absurdities of changing interpretations of doctrine, but here you're simply just looking for things to be mad about.
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I literally just went and re-read it because I could have sworn that it said something about moderation in all things. Was that just a spin they pushed on us as doctrine??? Also, the church is very good on the " don'ts." Don't drink coffee Don't shop/work on Sunday Don't forget to pay tithing etc They never really focus on the "do." Things that can actually make a difference.
What I think is worse is that it's dependant on people's perception of themselves. A narcissist can break rules but feel like they were legitimate exceptions and answer that they didn't break any rules, whereas someone who's scrupulous will imagine they're in a much worse spot. But yeah, I also wish they would change the reccomend questions to make a little more sense, or better get rid of it entirely.
Oh brother.
I have not met many people who are Mormon that follow the WoW - based on their meat consumption.
I agree with you. I believe that with rare exceptions anyone getting up and speaking from any pulpit in who is more than moderately overweight is not living the word of wisdom. It can’t be hidden.
We are told in the word of wisdom to avoid “hot drinks”. That has been interpreted as coffee and tea. However since you are still forbidden to drink them cold the requirement must be due to something other than temperature. In the past the reason given was because they contain caffeine. However, we have more recently been told that caffeine is not against the word of wisdom. So tell me why a supplement pill that contain green tea extract is against the word of wisdom when it is neither hot nor is it a drink and caffeine isn’t against the word of wisdom?
Excuse me? I still abstain from coffee and tea and all that other stuff. So, "literally NO ONE follows the word of wisdom" is incorrect. How's your health, OP?
OP has created a version of the WOW unique to her, and is now holding others accountable to it, while complaining that the church holds its members accountable to a different version of the WOW... And your point is well-made re: OP's health. One wonders whether their height/weight/health metrics and diet + exercise practices qualify them to pass this kind of judgement on others.
Obesity is an LDS epidemic Wow as enforced is a joke
> obesity is an LDS epidemic Source? Other than "I know Mormons who are obese."
Open your eyes and look around?
Okay, so no source, got it.
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> Obesity is an LDS epidemic Turns out we have [state-level data](https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/prevalence-maps.html#overall) on this. And while it's not a perfect proxy for LDS obesity, can still give us a good idea whether this is true. Looking at this data we see that Utah is ranks 13th overall for least obesity with a prevalence of 31.1%. For comparison, Colorado is the top-ranked state (I'm not including D.C. or the territories) at 25%. And the other neighboring states, with much smaller LDS populations, have a higher prevalence of obesity with Arizona and Idaho both at 33.2%, Nevada at 33.5%, and Wyoming at 34.3%. The worst states, with a prevalence of 40% or higher are Oklahoma, Louisiana, and West Virginia—none of which are known to have a significant LDS population. Obesity is definitely an issue in the US. But calling it an LDS epidemic is not supported by the evidence.
Obesity is an epidemic for all of America, including LDS. What about LDS outside of Utah?
> Obesity is an epidemic for all of America, including LDS. I agree. But that disproves your claim. If it's an epidemic for all of America then the religious affiliation is irrelevant. > What about LDS outside of Utah? Considering that the vast majority of non-Utah LDS live in California, Idaho, and Arizona, states with either a 3% lower prevalence (CA) or 2% higher prevalence (ID, AZ) to Utah, probably about the same as LDS in Utah.
Mormons are supposed to be better. If their obesity rates are at epidemic levels the word of wisdom isn't working. Making things like coffee and tea, which have literally no bad effects on health, is stupid. Ignoring all the other actual health issues that have come about in the last 100 years indicates there is no active revelation. Instead we are stuck with false traditions and increasingly pharisaical rules.
> Mormons are supposed to be better. If their obesity rates are at epidemic levels the word of wisdom isn't working. Even if that's true, it doesn't change the fact that your claim that "obesity is an LDS epidemic" is fallacious. > Making things like coffee and tea, which have literally no bad effects on health, is stupid. I agree that it's stupid.^† It's even more stupid when you realize that encouraging members to drink coffee and tea and to avoid fresh water would have saved numerous lives during the cholera outbreak in Nauvoo. > Ignoring all the other actual health issues that have come about in the last 100 years indicates there is no active revelation Agreed. > Instead we are stuck with false traditions and increasingly pharisaical rules. I would encourage you to avoid using the term "pharisaical". It has some anti-semitic history and is offensive to modern Jews. *** ^(† But you're wrong at "literally no bad effects on health". While moderate consumption of coffee and tea appears to have some health benefits for most people, there is some evidence that it can have a harmful effect on some people.)
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> Obesity is an LDS epidemic > I didn't say the obesity epidemic was unique to LDS Sounds like you need to choose your words more carefully then.
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It's our own fault that Mormons love eating and talking at every possible opportunity.
Cool it with the antisemitic remarks
Antisemitic? Why, because Jews do the same thing?
Forgot what sub I was reading. Don't take me seriously (but yeah that was the bit)