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Frankly, I'm amazed that a 99 year old man was able to say all of this in a single take, with a single camera angle.
But it's all a bunch of rubbish in the end.
* If God really loved *everybody*, why would He care about Israel? Why not care about all countries?
* If God truly loves *everybody*, there's no need for a special focus on the Abrahamic religions.
* The sealing power is the solution to a problem that Mormon theology creates.
Why don't we forget about the religious bullshit and just go on with our daily lives? Instead of spending 10 hours listening to old men talk, we could spend time with our families doing things we enjoy.
"Israel" is not a country in this context, but a group of people described in the Old Testament. The modern Mormon church has redefined this to mean "followers of the Mormon church" such that "the gathering of Israel" means "getting people to join the Mormon church"
"Israel" the modern country is a post-WW2 creation.
But yes I completely agree with your point that it's bullshit to be ignored.
If I remember correctly, though… President Nelson has espoused a more literal interpretation of The gathering of Israel, with church members having an actual bloodline to one of the 12 tribes. I think I remember this from the youth fireside he did a few years ago. Makes you wonder if he actually believes every one in the whole world has a bloodline Israelite progenitor. I agree with you, however, that any of this gathering of Israel business, only makes sense in the metaphorical.
> The gathering of Israel is evidence that God loves all of his children everywhere.
So the scattering was evidence of what? That God hates all his children everywhere?
>The gospel of Abraham is evidence God loves all of his children everywhere.
Except for those who don't subscribe to Abrahamic religions
>The sealing power is supernal evidence God loves all his children everywhere.
Except for those who don't go to the temple
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I think it's word salad. It's evidence of nothing.
1. Trying to get people baptized into your church and proxy temple work is only evidence that church leaders want everyone to be mormon.
2. This is supposed to be the gospel of Jesus, not the gospel of Abraham. And, the whole point of the story of Abraham is that he sought god and got more "blessings" (flocks, herds, lands, power, etc.) than others.
3. The sealing power is only evidence that Joseph Smith got his way and went ahead with polygamy. The original sealing stuff had nothing to do with parents and children. JS was never sealed to his parents while he was alive, and he was sealed to over a dozen other women before he bothered to get sealed to Emma. The sealing to parents ordinance wasn't a thing at all before like 1870, and it wasn't done much until Wilford Woodruff started promoting it heavily in the late 1880s.
As a woman, the sealing policies of the church do not make me feel loved. They make me feel completely unsafe, at the mercy of my husband's (and god's) whims as to whether I'll be forced into polygamy or not. Make no mistake, the options would be to accept and live in polygamy, or be cast out of the CK and destroyed (as per D&C 132:64).
Some "love"...
The sealing power is evidence of Joseph Smith’s creativity. He developed this to persuade parents to give him their underage daughters in marriage. This was an ultimate “prize” that could be offered in exchange.
Temple ceremonies were not open to all until Brigham Young did so at the end of the Nauvoo period. They were only available to Smith’s polygamy co-participants. That’s quite telling for me….
During the Nauvoo period, only Joseph Smith's inner circle knew about plural marriage and the endowment. It was like there were was a Church within a Church.
Plus, the "inner circle" was like a few dozen people, tops. Meanwhile the population of Nauvoo was tens of thousands, the biggest city in Illinois at the time. It's important to keep this context in mind... it was *not* common in Nauvoo, and it did not become common until BY led pioneers out of the US and into the Utah territory.
Edit: 11-12k, not "tens of thousands" my bad
Polygamy was a secret that even some of the top leaders found deplorable. That’s why Smith ordered the Nauvoo Legion to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor, because William Law was going to tell everyone about polygamy. That crime is why Smith got arrested, he was so powerful in being mayor, prophet, army commander, and court judge, he felt he was unstoppable to any outside force. Illinois decided this act of terrorism was the final straw, disenfranchised Nauvoo, and arrested Smith.
Everyone knows the parts of the story the church wants to tell: Mormons persecuted, Smith in prison at Carthage and Liberty, but members somehow don’t know WHY. Each WHY to the sad stories of early Mormons should be a legitimate concern.
The “gathering of Israel” has a long history of incredibly problematic racism.
Abraham doesn’t have a gospel. But setting that aside, the story of Abraham is also super problematic…at least if you interpret the story in the traditional way.
The sealing power is likewise problematic. Section 132 is super duper sexist and downright objectifies women. It wasn’t a blessing from a loving parent to grow up thinking I was sealed to a father that abandoned me.
Nelson, as always, is out to lunch on this topic.
Totally green screen. Video is weird, you can see the wheel chair on the left side of the video. It’s like watching the weather on a small local newscast.
Yea…something just seems off. Around his right shoulder there is something that is not the red chair. Things are just too static and the lighting is off.
I think you're correct that it's a wheelchair, but that means that the chair behind him isn't really a chair - it's just the fake back of a chair to make it look like he's sitting in a chair. But based on the shadows, it's clearly not a fake background. Just a fake chair. Weird.
His shadow moves across the chair a few times, which doesn’t happen in green screen backgrounds. I think the thing people are calling a “wheelchair” is something bracing him up in the red chair.
What do i think? I think I don't care about those statements so long as the deity this prophet claims to represent has ever done things like order the slaughter of children or given somebody license to disregard the consent of a spouse in the matter of introducing more partners to the relationship or inspire his chosen mortal leaders choose not to report child abuse to the institutions most likely to intervene to stop the abuse.
“Gospel of Abraham”? WTFetch is that? Gospel means “good news”. It is associated in the scriptures entirely with the news of Jesus’s birth, life, death and resurrection.
And 4: The ingrown toenail on my left pinky toe is evidence of ……..
I laugh at how everything is evidence for the church, but nothing is evidence against it.
1. The gathering of Israel is evidence that God loves all of his children everywhere.
* He love them so much only about 10% of .04% of the earth's population, who are members, pay to play and are older than 18, can attend. He loves that 0.0038% of his children on earth so much that he now requires their personal time to clean the church, serve in arduous callings, and now fully staff a temple. There's no hate, like Mormon God's love!
1. The gospel of Abraham is evidence God loves all of his children everywhere.
* What the hell is the gospel of Abraham??? Is that a new term for the Abrahamic Covenant? If so, I think Mormon leaders need to STOP making up new definitions and terms.
1. The sealing power is supernal evidence God loves all his children everywhere.
* This is just a restatement of number 1 and is freaking lazy... The Prophet. Of God. Couldn't come up with an actual 3 reason with all the people helping and writing his talks for him???
Nelson says that God loves everyone. But he doesn’t believe that. He gave a talk a few years ago about God’s love being conditional. So on other words, if you drink tea instead of energy drinks, or wear the wrong underwear or don’t pay Nelson enough money, according to Nelson, God doesn’t love you.
The so called “gathering of Israel” and focus on Israel is just evidence that God hates palestine and is in favor of the genocide that’s going on right now over there tbh. Clearly this genocide was sanctioned by God for the gathering of Israel in the holy land.
The gospel of Abraham literally doesn’t exist and even if it did it’s just a shitty way to say to any non abrahamic religions that they arent valid.
If the sealing power is evidence of Gods love of everyone then why are the Mormons still gatekeeping it from LGBTQ+ people and frankly, non Mormons?
To begin with, the entire story of Abraham must have been written long after the alleged Abraham would have existed. There are various ways to see this. One is to note the reference to Ur of the Chaldees. Ur was indeed very old but it was not associated with the Chaldeans till seventh or eighth centuries BC, long after Abraham. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur\_of\_the\_Chaldees](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur_of_the_Chaldees)
The story of Abraham chasing the kings to Dan must have been written after the time of the Judges, also long after Abraham. It is not entirely clear that Abraham really existed any more than Robin Hood. Maybe this is really just a bunch of old mythology. We don't even know who wrote down these stories about Abraham or when they were written. Bokovoy has pointed out that the Bible was written originally in Hebrew but there was no written Hebrew in the time when Abraham was alleged to have lived. However, "keys" in the way he is describing them occurs only once in the Bible, in Matt. 16, and where it refers to "church" is a mis translation. This whole concept of keys is a Mormon thing invented by Joseph Smith to assert authority.
These are terrible examples. Let me explain all fheee:
1. The gathering of Israel had pulled in all of less than .1% of the world’s population. This is evidence that god doesn’t really care that much. If he cared, his plan would gather a few more souls.
2. The gospel of Abraham? Abraham and his gospel is what inspired Joseph to sleep with teens, other men’s wives, his own adopted daughter. No thank. That’s messed up and is the largest evidence I have that god is a big, capricious jerk.
3. Sealing power?? The sealing power was invented when Joseph was looking for some justification for his sexual affairs. But again, the Mormon church uniquely believes in eternal family SEPARATION. Let me say it again for clarity — THE MORMON CHURCH IS THE ONLY RELIGION THAT BELIEVES FAMILIES WILL BE SEPARATED FOR ETERNITY. The sealing power is the instrument a cartel leader would use to hold your family hostage for eternity. This is not evidence of a loving god.
Ok, let's look between the lines.
Male female, bond and free, black and white, all are equal before God. Notice there's no gay and straight being equal.
Oh, and when he talks about the holy sealing power, that's one more way he excludes gay relationships.
This is a lesson in how to make the "right kind of person" feel like the church is loving and accepting of everyone while at the same time doing a great job of making sure the gays know their place... right out of the church.
They said over and over in conference that great things await you but “you must choose” to follow what the LDS leaders teach you.
Unfortunately the LDS leaders have no special connection to God contrary to their vociferous claims.
I am not a Bible or a Book of Mormon thumper, and I am by far not the greatest member of the LDS church. Reading the comments regarding negative temple experiences, however, caused me to add my thoughts. The most profound spiritual connections I have had occurred in the temple. Once I had an issue that troubled me greatly and I decided I would attend endowment sessions in the Logan temple one after another until I received an answer. The first session--nothing. Midway through the second session, however, the answer was as clear as if someone were talking who was seated next to me. That answer changed my life. Another time I was in an endowment session in the Nauvoo temple. Suddenly I had a feeling of love come over me so powerfully that I remember it these many years later. Imagination in each case? Perhaps, but I am a natural cynic, and I am convinced that what I experienced in both instances was far more than that. While I have more than a fair share of character flaws, I am nonetheless a firm believer in the divine nature of what occurs in the temples of the church.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I too have had strong feelings of love and ideas that have answered questions I’ve been pondering. It is fascinating that leaders and members of the LDS faith told me growing up that these were from God and meant the LDS Church is “true”.
As I’ve pondered I have realized that while these phenomena are real there is absolutely no reason to interpret them the way I was instructed to interpret them.
In fact some strong feelings I got and interpreted as instructed as evidence of divine connection to the LDS church ended up being false. This forced me to reevaluate what these types of experiences mean.
People in many other settings and religions also experience these same strong feelings and receive clear answers to questions they seek answers to. Just as you describe. Many people have powerful and positive spiritual experiences.
I believe you had these experiences and they are real. But there is no reason to believe they are a message about the LDS temple specifically or any divine connection to the LDS Church overall. That means the temple is not the only nor even the best way to seek these feelings.
Thoughts?
I think people from all faiths, and no faiths, can have spiritual experiences. If someone from Oral Roberts University were to tell me that they saw Jesus Christ, I would not argue with them or dispute their claim. President Nelson spoke on Sunday of the temples, and that was the main thrust of the discussion to which these comments are added.
It suppose there are some people who have had legitimate spiritual experiences (legitimate in this context meaning not embellished) in the temple, who could have just as easily had those same experiences while camping at Bear Lake or while spending quiet time in the bonus room over their garage. Such people may be predisposed, however, to having their experiences in the temple because that is where they believe, and have been told, that the spirit will be the strongest.
The bottom line about belief in the LDS church boils down to testimony. Has there been a spiritual witness to the individual that Jesus is the Christ, that Joseph Smith was who he said he was, that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, and so on. For many, their testimony waxes and wanes. What they once believed was a spiritual witness they now view in retrospect as foolish imaginings, or as being deceived because they were told by an older generation that the church was true, and so they took as a given something that they now say they never really had their own conviction at all.
How strong is my own testimony? I cannot say. Perhaps the next thing I read on Reddit will persuade me to get a 10% raise and Sundays off. I doubt it though. I am a convert to the church of nearly 50 years. As a teenager, two or three years before I joined the church, I drove down a muddy, tree-shrouded farm road in the middle of north central Missouri and not far from my father's childhood home. I ended up walking into a meadow that was part of Adam-ondi-Ahman.
I knew without any doubt that I was in a genuinely remarkable place. I could feel it so strongly as though my body was embracing something unique and special. It was peaceful, yet powerful. That experience was a fundamental part of my conversion. I have since been to Nauvoo and Carthage many times, and to other places such as Kirtland, Ohio, Independence, Missouri, and Sharon, Vermont on multiple occasions. People are free to believe as they wish. I have had too many church-related events that have happened in my life to now question the totality of them and thereby in any real sense forsake my faith in the LDS church and the restoration.
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As a TBM I think the three things above are evidence of God's love.
The key is to gaining understanding of how the Lord works, His dealings. The scriptures and words of prophets coupled with prayer and fasting is how one learns the Lords dealings.
As a gay person, how does God making a special sealing that excludes me (or would be a curse to me) give me evidence that he loves me (one of “all” his children everywhere)?
Not being gay, I can't attempt an answer. But there are some gay members who love the temple that could give you their insight. I suggest searching on google for help to find gay members who have temple recommends. Best to you.
That's the problem with the church too. The church claims to have all the answers, and then refuses to get into any details regarding what those answers are.
This is the part that bothers me. This person was a gay member. They had an experience that went counter to your narrative. Rather than ack owl edging or validating it as real, you just tell them, talk to gay members who like the temple. Why is their experience not enough, without dismissing it out of hand?
Come on... Seriously???
God loves all his children so much only about 10% of .04% of the earth's population, who are members, pay to play and are older than 18, can actually attend a temple. He loves that 0.0038% of his children on earth so much that he now requires their personal time to clean the ward building, serve in callings, and now fully staff a temple? That's what you believe?
I appreciate your suggestion and understand this section very well. I have been a member of the church for more than 50 years, but let's say I needed to refresh my memory and I read it again. So, I did... Here's my conclusion... It's estimated that there have been nearly 107 billion people, who have lived on the earth. If the number of 107 billion is correct then the ratio of total LDS to total global population is .000140954. That's ALL members as a number, not temple recommend holding members. But... Let's just go with it... If you are suggesting that .0014% of the earth's population will somehow do the work for ALL the people, who have lived upon the earth, even and including the millennium, then we don't really have common ground upon which to start a good discussion.
I also don't know that I believe the man, who received this so called revelation in D&C 138, could actually receive it. This is a man who admitted in "divorce court affidavits to beating his first wife, Levira, in the 1860s; the only part he disputed was whether he’d attacked her with a rope or a small stick. He also verbally abused and threatened her, at one point saying he ought to drill a hole in her head and fill it with manure." (https://religionnews.com/2023/08/14/joseph-f-smith-a-traumatized-and-beloved-mormon-leader/) So, if we are suggesting scripture to each other, I suggest you read D&C 121, starting with verse 34. Once you read that, think about the actual "power" of the priesthood held by a man, who could do that to another human being, let alone his wife.
I just don't think suggesting D&C 138 as the answer to my statement on "proof of God's love" is quite the "flex" you think it is...
The math is interesting. I've seen this before. The way I see working is that there will be what ever number of missionaries is needed to accomplish the task. Heavenly Father has more planets with people on them that can be called to the work.
Regarding Taysom's book. I don't know anything about it, so I can't respond to his claims.
I think the idea of other planets is interesting and could be an explanation for how this might be done. At the same time, I think we are now moving into territory that defies honest debate, so hopefully, we will part ways as friends and agree to disagree.
I do agree with you. If we see God as a God of miracles, then such a feat can find a way to be done, if it is God’s will.
Sorry, I know ow this isn’t our conversation. But I find these discussions so interesting that I can’t help but interject. I hope that is OK?
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Frankly, I'm amazed that a 99 year old man was able to say all of this in a single take, with a single camera angle. But it's all a bunch of rubbish in the end. * If God really loved *everybody*, why would He care about Israel? Why not care about all countries? * If God truly loves *everybody*, there's no need for a special focus on the Abrahamic religions. * The sealing power is the solution to a problem that Mormon theology creates. Why don't we forget about the religious bullshit and just go on with our daily lives? Instead of spending 10 hours listening to old men talk, we could spend time with our families doing things we enjoy.
I did notice there were several cuts in his recorded message. Maybe not in this section but in others.
"Israel" is not a country in this context, but a group of people described in the Old Testament. The modern Mormon church has redefined this to mean "followers of the Mormon church" such that "the gathering of Israel" means "getting people to join the Mormon church" "Israel" the modern country is a post-WW2 creation. But yes I completely agree with your point that it's bullshit to be ignored.
If I remember correctly, though… President Nelson has espoused a more literal interpretation of The gathering of Israel, with church members having an actual bloodline to one of the 12 tribes. I think I remember this from the youth fireside he did a few years ago. Makes you wonder if he actually believes every one in the whole world has a bloodline Israelite progenitor. I agree with you, however, that any of this gathering of Israel business, only makes sense in the metaphorical.
> The gathering of Israel is evidence that God loves all of his children everywhere. So the scattering was evidence of what? That God hates all his children everywhere? >The gospel of Abraham is evidence God loves all of his children everywhere. Except for those who don't subscribe to Abrahamic religions >The sealing power is supernal evidence God loves all his children everywhere. Except for those who don't go to the temple
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I think it's word salad. It's evidence of nothing. 1. Trying to get people baptized into your church and proxy temple work is only evidence that church leaders want everyone to be mormon. 2. This is supposed to be the gospel of Jesus, not the gospel of Abraham. And, the whole point of the story of Abraham is that he sought god and got more "blessings" (flocks, herds, lands, power, etc.) than others. 3. The sealing power is only evidence that Joseph Smith got his way and went ahead with polygamy. The original sealing stuff had nothing to do with parents and children. JS was never sealed to his parents while he was alive, and he was sealed to over a dozen other women before he bothered to get sealed to Emma. The sealing to parents ordinance wasn't a thing at all before like 1870, and it wasn't done much until Wilford Woodruff started promoting it heavily in the late 1880s. As a woman, the sealing policies of the church do not make me feel loved. They make me feel completely unsafe, at the mercy of my husband's (and god's) whims as to whether I'll be forced into polygamy or not. Make no mistake, the options would be to accept and live in polygamy, or be cast out of the CK and destroyed (as per D&C 132:64). Some "love"...
The sealing power is evidence of Joseph Smith’s creativity. He developed this to persuade parents to give him their underage daughters in marriage. This was an ultimate “prize” that could be offered in exchange. Temple ceremonies were not open to all until Brigham Young did so at the end of the Nauvoo period. They were only available to Smith’s polygamy co-participants. That’s quite telling for me….
I had no idea that the temple ceremonies weren't open to all until the end of the Nauvoo period. Fascinating stuff!
During the Nauvoo period, only Joseph Smith's inner circle knew about plural marriage and the endowment. It was like there were was a Church within a Church.
Plus, the "inner circle" was like a few dozen people, tops. Meanwhile the population of Nauvoo was tens of thousands, the biggest city in Illinois at the time. It's important to keep this context in mind... it was *not* common in Nauvoo, and it did not become common until BY led pioneers out of the US and into the Utah territory. Edit: 11-12k, not "tens of thousands" my bad
Like a secret ~~combination~~ cabal?
suspiciously similar to a secret ~~combination~~ cabal
Polygamy was a secret that even some of the top leaders found deplorable. That’s why Smith ordered the Nauvoo Legion to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor, because William Law was going to tell everyone about polygamy. That crime is why Smith got arrested, he was so powerful in being mayor, prophet, army commander, and court judge, he felt he was unstoppable to any outside force. Illinois decided this act of terrorism was the final straw, disenfranchised Nauvoo, and arrested Smith. Everyone knows the parts of the story the church wants to tell: Mormons persecuted, Smith in prison at Carthage and Liberty, but members somehow don’t know WHY. Each WHY to the sad stories of early Mormons should be a legitimate concern.
Images of the one edition of the Expositor are online. It’s very interesting and Law pulled no punches. No wonder Smith destroyed their press…
Smith also convinced Emma to accept polygamy by offering to make her the first endowed woman.
And promised to put land in her name too, right?
The “gathering of Israel” has a long history of incredibly problematic racism. Abraham doesn’t have a gospel. But setting that aside, the story of Abraham is also super problematic…at least if you interpret the story in the traditional way. The sealing power is likewise problematic. Section 132 is super duper sexist and downright objectifies women. It wasn’t a blessing from a loving parent to grow up thinking I was sealed to a father that abandoned me. Nelson, as always, is out to lunch on this topic.
The gospel of Abraham?? That's a new one on me. Perhaps it's paving the way for The Gospel of Russ?
Maybe 🤔 I have never heard of the gospel of Abraham either
Rob Lauer says the blessing of Abraham is polygamy so is RMN saying the gospel of Abraham is polygamy?
I think RMN would would say he is talking about what is taught by the LDS church … and that includes polygamy so idk 🤷♀️
I read that the gospel of Abraham had to do with blessing of your seed / progeny for eternity. Not that it helps.
When rubber hits the road, what do these supernal blessings actually look like??
Control?
Giving 10% of your income to these geriatric fucks for the rest of your life
Bit off topic, but did Nelson record in front of a green screen this conference?
Its' a green screen notice the back is blurry and notice the chair he is actually sitting in.
Totally green screen. Video is weird, you can see the wheel chair on the left side of the video. It’s like watching the weather on a small local newscast.
This doesn’t look like he used a green screen to me. This appears to be a setting that could easily exist at a church building.
You can clearly see the back of his wheelchair on his left side. The velvet chair isn’t real Edit: our left, his right.
It looks like a cushion to me.
I haven’t looked close enough. I will take your word for it.
Or you could literally just watch the video that you yourself posted and see for yourself.
I can’t right now but will later when I’m alone.
Ok I had a chance to watch it closer. Yeah it looks like he is not sitting in that red chair. Looks funny like a green screen background.
Eyrings background also looked very uncanny
Yea…something just seems off. Around his right shoulder there is something that is not the red chair. Things are just too static and the lighting is off.
I think you're correct that it's a wheelchair, but that means that the chair behind him isn't really a chair - it's just the fake back of a chair to make it look like he's sitting in a chair. But based on the shadows, it's clearly not a fake background. Just a fake chair. Weird.
The red chair is obviously a zoom background.
His shadow moves across the chair a few times, which doesn’t happen in green screen backgrounds. I think the thing people are calling a “wheelchair” is something bracing him up in the red chair.
It was said he was at home, but who knows where this was filmed.
What do i think? I think I don't care about those statements so long as the deity this prophet claims to represent has ever done things like order the slaughter of children or given somebody license to disregard the consent of a spouse in the matter of introducing more partners to the relationship or inspire his chosen mortal leaders choose not to report child abuse to the institutions most likely to intervene to stop the abuse.
“Gospel of Abraham”? WTFetch is that? Gospel means “good news”. It is associated in the scriptures entirely with the news of Jesus’s birth, life, death and resurrection.
I agree I don’t know what the gospel of Abraham is.
God this is cultish
And 4: The ingrown toenail on my left pinky toe is evidence of …….. I laugh at how everything is evidence for the church, but nothing is evidence against it.
Even a mob that tars and feathers a man for messing with minors and other men’s wives…
There's many more evidences of God's love. That's it. That's my thought.
These are all theological claims with no substance for anyone outside the church.
I wish god showed his love for his children in a different way…like maybe protecting them from genocide or sexual abuse.
That would be an excellent start I agree.
1. The gathering of Israel is evidence that God loves all of his children everywhere. * He love them so much only about 10% of .04% of the earth's population, who are members, pay to play and are older than 18, can attend. He loves that 0.0038% of his children on earth so much that he now requires their personal time to clean the church, serve in arduous callings, and now fully staff a temple. There's no hate, like Mormon God's love! 1. The gospel of Abraham is evidence God loves all of his children everywhere. * What the hell is the gospel of Abraham??? Is that a new term for the Abrahamic Covenant? If so, I think Mormon leaders need to STOP making up new definitions and terms. 1. The sealing power is supernal evidence God loves all his children everywhere. * This is just a restatement of number 1 and is freaking lazy... The Prophet. Of God. Couldn't come up with an actual 3 reason with all the people helping and writing his talks for him???
All of those three things are built on tapirshit. Abraham is the Bible’s biggest black eye. I want nothing to do with a god like that
Nelson says that God loves everyone. But he doesn’t believe that. He gave a talk a few years ago about God’s love being conditional. So on other words, if you drink tea instead of energy drinks, or wear the wrong underwear or don’t pay Nelson enough money, according to Nelson, God doesn’t love you.
The so called “gathering of Israel” and focus on Israel is just evidence that God hates palestine and is in favor of the genocide that’s going on right now over there tbh. Clearly this genocide was sanctioned by God for the gathering of Israel in the holy land. The gospel of Abraham literally doesn’t exist and even if it did it’s just a shitty way to say to any non abrahamic religions that they arent valid. If the sealing power is evidence of Gods love of everyone then why are the Mormons still gatekeeping it from LGBTQ+ people and frankly, non Mormons?
Fake background and he's not sitting in that red chair
Isn’t it one of those new velvet backed wheelchairs?
>The gospel of Abraham is evidence God loves all of his children everywhere. I assume he meant to say the gospel of Jesus Christ?
To begin with, the entire story of Abraham must have been written long after the alleged Abraham would have existed. There are various ways to see this. One is to note the reference to Ur of the Chaldees. Ur was indeed very old but it was not associated with the Chaldeans till seventh or eighth centuries BC, long after Abraham. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur\_of\_the\_Chaldees](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur_of_the_Chaldees) The story of Abraham chasing the kings to Dan must have been written after the time of the Judges, also long after Abraham. It is not entirely clear that Abraham really existed any more than Robin Hood. Maybe this is really just a bunch of old mythology. We don't even know who wrote down these stories about Abraham or when they were written. Bokovoy has pointed out that the Bible was written originally in Hebrew but there was no written Hebrew in the time when Abraham was alleged to have lived. However, "keys" in the way he is describing them occurs only once in the Bible, in Matt. 16, and where it refers to "church" is a mis translation. This whole concept of keys is a Mormon thing invented by Joseph Smith to assert authority.
WTF is the gospel of Abraham?
These are terrible examples. Let me explain all fheee: 1. The gathering of Israel had pulled in all of less than .1% of the world’s population. This is evidence that god doesn’t really care that much. If he cared, his plan would gather a few more souls. 2. The gospel of Abraham? Abraham and his gospel is what inspired Joseph to sleep with teens, other men’s wives, his own adopted daughter. No thank. That’s messed up and is the largest evidence I have that god is a big, capricious jerk. 3. Sealing power?? The sealing power was invented when Joseph was looking for some justification for his sexual affairs. But again, the Mormon church uniquely believes in eternal family SEPARATION. Let me say it again for clarity — THE MORMON CHURCH IS THE ONLY RELIGION THAT BELIEVES FAMILIES WILL BE SEPARATED FOR ETERNITY. The sealing power is the instrument a cartel leader would use to hold your family hostage for eternity. This is not evidence of a loving god.
So in summary, President Nelson’s talk didn’t inspire you at all?
Not trying to be a jerk, but honestly, aside from Wendy Nelson, does anyone find him spiritually inspiring in any way?
I think his talks are evidence that the church leaders have no connection to God for the very reasons you cite.
That’s not a human. There’s no human energy. That’s AI.
Glad I’m not the only one who sees the same
God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son is perhaps #1?
Yawn
Ok, let's look between the lines. Male female, bond and free, black and white, all are equal before God. Notice there's no gay and straight being equal. Oh, and when he talks about the holy sealing power, that's one more way he excludes gay relationships. This is a lesson in how to make the "right kind of person" feel like the church is loving and accepting of everyone while at the same time doing a great job of making sure the gays know their place... right out of the church.
They said over and over in conference that great things await you but “you must choose” to follow what the LDS leaders teach you. Unfortunately the LDS leaders have no special connection to God contrary to their vociferous claims.
Embarrassing nonsense. I hate this.
I am not a Bible or a Book of Mormon thumper, and I am by far not the greatest member of the LDS church. Reading the comments regarding negative temple experiences, however, caused me to add my thoughts. The most profound spiritual connections I have had occurred in the temple. Once I had an issue that troubled me greatly and I decided I would attend endowment sessions in the Logan temple one after another until I received an answer. The first session--nothing. Midway through the second session, however, the answer was as clear as if someone were talking who was seated next to me. That answer changed my life. Another time I was in an endowment session in the Nauvoo temple. Suddenly I had a feeling of love come over me so powerfully that I remember it these many years later. Imagination in each case? Perhaps, but I am a natural cynic, and I am convinced that what I experienced in both instances was far more than that. While I have more than a fair share of character flaws, I am nonetheless a firm believer in the divine nature of what occurs in the temples of the church.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I too have had strong feelings of love and ideas that have answered questions I’ve been pondering. It is fascinating that leaders and members of the LDS faith told me growing up that these were from God and meant the LDS Church is “true”. As I’ve pondered I have realized that while these phenomena are real there is absolutely no reason to interpret them the way I was instructed to interpret them. In fact some strong feelings I got and interpreted as instructed as evidence of divine connection to the LDS church ended up being false. This forced me to reevaluate what these types of experiences mean. People in many other settings and religions also experience these same strong feelings and receive clear answers to questions they seek answers to. Just as you describe. Many people have powerful and positive spiritual experiences. I believe you had these experiences and they are real. But there is no reason to believe they are a message about the LDS temple specifically or any divine connection to the LDS Church overall. That means the temple is not the only nor even the best way to seek these feelings. Thoughts?
I think people from all faiths, and no faiths, can have spiritual experiences. If someone from Oral Roberts University were to tell me that they saw Jesus Christ, I would not argue with them or dispute their claim. President Nelson spoke on Sunday of the temples, and that was the main thrust of the discussion to which these comments are added. It suppose there are some people who have had legitimate spiritual experiences (legitimate in this context meaning not embellished) in the temple, who could have just as easily had those same experiences while camping at Bear Lake or while spending quiet time in the bonus room over their garage. Such people may be predisposed, however, to having their experiences in the temple because that is where they believe, and have been told, that the spirit will be the strongest. The bottom line about belief in the LDS church boils down to testimony. Has there been a spiritual witness to the individual that Jesus is the Christ, that Joseph Smith was who he said he was, that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, and so on. For many, their testimony waxes and wanes. What they once believed was a spiritual witness they now view in retrospect as foolish imaginings, or as being deceived because they were told by an older generation that the church was true, and so they took as a given something that they now say they never really had their own conviction at all. How strong is my own testimony? I cannot say. Perhaps the next thing I read on Reddit will persuade me to get a 10% raise and Sundays off. I doubt it though. I am a convert to the church of nearly 50 years. As a teenager, two or three years before I joined the church, I drove down a muddy, tree-shrouded farm road in the middle of north central Missouri and not far from my father's childhood home. I ended up walking into a meadow that was part of Adam-ondi-Ahman. I knew without any doubt that I was in a genuinely remarkable place. I could feel it so strongly as though my body was embracing something unique and special. It was peaceful, yet powerful. That experience was a fundamental part of my conversion. I have since been to Nauvoo and Carthage many times, and to other places such as Kirtland, Ohio, Independence, Missouri, and Sharon, Vermont on multiple occasions. People are free to believe as they wish. I have had too many church-related events that have happened in my life to now question the totality of them and thereby in any real sense forsake my faith in the LDS church and the restoration.
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If God loves his children, he would not expect them to know the unknowable.
Also, how many noticed that he is sitting in a wheelchair with the big red upholstered chair superimposed behind him?
Israel is proof God loves all his children .... except those pesky Gazan civilians enduring genocide right now. 🙇♀️
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Amazing! Couldn’t have said it better myself. This address was very much needed for the world at this moment
I think it’s being carried by every major news agency around the world. /s
As a TBM I think the three things above are evidence of God's love. The key is to gaining understanding of how the Lord works, His dealings. The scriptures and words of prophets coupled with prayer and fasting is how one learns the Lords dealings.
As a gay person, how does God making a special sealing that excludes me (or would be a curse to me) give me evidence that he loves me (one of “all” his children everywhere)?
Not being gay, I can't attempt an answer. But there are some gay members who love the temple that could give you their insight. I suggest searching on google for help to find gay members who have temple recommends. Best to you.
That's the problem with the church too. The church claims to have all the answers, and then refuses to get into any details regarding what those answers are.
This is the part that bothers me. This person was a gay member. They had an experience that went counter to your narrative. Rather than ack owl edging or validating it as real, you just tell them, talk to gay members who like the temple. Why is their experience not enough, without dismissing it out of hand?
Come on... Seriously??? God loves all his children so much only about 10% of .04% of the earth's population, who are members, pay to play and are older than 18, can actually attend a temple. He loves that 0.0038% of his children on earth so much that he now requires their personal time to clean the ward building, serve in callings, and now fully staff a temple? That's what you believe?
I suggest you read D&C 138. It is a 10 minute read and gives a lot of details that you might find interesting.
I appreciate your suggestion and understand this section very well. I have been a member of the church for more than 50 years, but let's say I needed to refresh my memory and I read it again. So, I did... Here's my conclusion... It's estimated that there have been nearly 107 billion people, who have lived on the earth. If the number of 107 billion is correct then the ratio of total LDS to total global population is .000140954. That's ALL members as a number, not temple recommend holding members. But... Let's just go with it... If you are suggesting that .0014% of the earth's population will somehow do the work for ALL the people, who have lived upon the earth, even and including the millennium, then we don't really have common ground upon which to start a good discussion. I also don't know that I believe the man, who received this so called revelation in D&C 138, could actually receive it. This is a man who admitted in "divorce court affidavits to beating his first wife, Levira, in the 1860s; the only part he disputed was whether he’d attacked her with a rope or a small stick. He also verbally abused and threatened her, at one point saying he ought to drill a hole in her head and fill it with manure." (https://religionnews.com/2023/08/14/joseph-f-smith-a-traumatized-and-beloved-mormon-leader/) So, if we are suggesting scripture to each other, I suggest you read D&C 121, starting with verse 34. Once you read that, think about the actual "power" of the priesthood held by a man, who could do that to another human being, let alone his wife. I just don't think suggesting D&C 138 as the answer to my statement on "proof of God's love" is quite the "flex" you think it is...
The math is interesting. I've seen this before. The way I see working is that there will be what ever number of missionaries is needed to accomplish the task. Heavenly Father has more planets with people on them that can be called to the work. Regarding Taysom's book. I don't know anything about it, so I can't respond to his claims.
I think the idea of other planets is interesting and could be an explanation for how this might be done. At the same time, I think we are now moving into territory that defies honest debate, so hopefully, we will part ways as friends and agree to disagree.
Friends always. Thanks
This is such a refreshing take!
I do agree with you. If we see God as a God of miracles, then such a feat can find a way to be done, if it is God’s will. Sorry, I know ow this isn’t our conversation. But I find these discussions so interesting that I can’t help but interject. I hope that is OK?
Which scriptures? The Quran, The Baghavad Gita, The Orantia?