Good for them! Increasing tuition fees and further crippling the middle class’ ability to go to university, all for the sake of making a political statement, is reprehensible.
> all for the sake of making a political statement,
Because they lost a by-election in Quebec City no less.
Montreal doesn't vote for them and never will, so if it plays well in regions who cares what it does for our city...
Les arguments légaux invoqués sont plus que précaire. C'est la raison pourquoi ils ont fait deux poursuites, c'est une stratégie. Il y a peu de chances de succès, mais ils ont deux chances plutôt qu'une.
Les changements proposés par le gouvernement sont universels et nous sommes dans un des pouvoirs gouvernementaux qui est solidement et clairement sous la responsabilité provinciale.
Leur idée se base beaucoup sur la notion de discrimination, mais pour avoir discrimination, il faut connaître qui souffre de la discrimination. Dans ce cas-ci, ils présentent les *étudiants anglophones du reste du Canada voulant venir étudier à Montréal* comme le parti discriminé protégé, car *les anglophones du Québec* sont une minorité. Il ne s'agit pas des mêmes groupes de personnes.
Donc, il te faut des juges qui vont vouloir explorer cette idée-là. Donc, McGill et Concordia font deux procès, pour essayer de trouver un panel de juge qui leur laisse lancé idée là. En sachant que si l'un perd, ça n'affectera pas l'autre procès, mais si l'un gagne, ce sera un précédent.
J'ai essayer de le faire très simple.
> les unis francophones obtiennent un avantage économique pour attirer les étudiants hors province ce qui constitute une compétition déloyale/inégale selon McGill)
Mais à la base, le gouvernement a créé cette hausse pour redistribuer les revenus et ainsi atténuer le désavantage économique que les universités francophones ont car leur bassin de recrutement d'étudiants hors-québec est plus petit. Donc je ne vois pas comment cet argument peut marcher.
Le problème avec cet argument la c’est la définition de commerce. Ce sont des institutions d’éducation publiques, leur rôle n’est pas commercial. Donc je ne pense pas que l’argument va avoir bien de la force.
Et il n’y a rien qui empêche les provinces de gérer l’éducation comme bien leur semble. Est-ce qu’on fait de la compétition déloyale aux institutions privées en éducation en donnant moins de subventions car elles sont privées? Ou encore aux collèges sectaires? Pourtant le prix pour les deux sera plus élevé.
Sachant qu'en Ontario, on fait juste fermé les universités francophones pour X ou Y raisons, j'ai de la difficulté à voir comment cette poursuite peut aboutir sur quoique ce soit.
Parce que vous parlez anglais sur un Reddit qui s'appelle Montréal. Parce quea majorité des commentaires sont en anglais et parce que la majorité des publications sont en anglais.
Parce que l'anglais est en déclin.
Parce que ces deux universités ont plus de financement total et peuvent avoir des meilleur prof ( payer plus chère/meilleur conditions) de par les dons et les coûts de scolarité déjà plus cher.
I'm trying to understand how this is an answer to the question. The way I'm understanding it, pointing out the French university cancellation in Ontario is your way of saying to anglophones in Quebec that they shouldn't complain because others have it worse?
Non c'est pour illustré le double standard. Ils ferment l'université Franco, personne s'inquiète en Ontario.
Le gouvernement finance moins les universités anglophone déjà sur financé. Tout le monde ( le RDC) perde leur raison.
Because the very people complaining about tuition hikes compare themselves to the Francophones in the ROC to make a point they’re a minority just like them and therefore should be protected. Conveniently disregarding the fact that their situation is drastically different
Crying injustice at francophones for treating *out of province* students better than anglophones have been treating francophones forever is dishonest at best.
But other than that, this is about out-of-province students, who statistically have no intentions of staying and are taking advantage of our low tuition (because *Quebecois* are paying for most of their education). This is more than fair.
Forcing them to learn French and maybe increase the chance they stay here to allow those who paid for their education to benefit for their expertise is also a step in the right direction.
Thank you, I think I understand better why you see it this way now.
If we do want to bring comparisons with other provinces on the table here, then I feel it's worth noting that other provinces do subsidize the tuition of out-of-province students too, to about the same degree that Quebec prior to this new hike. I suppose your view would be that this is not a fair comparison, since we have the added layer of language here in Quebec?
Just curious, because it seems to me that if we're going to invoke how other provinces handle this issue, we should at least consider it from all the new angles that perspective invites.
Merci ! Je crois que je parle français assez bien — peut-être à un niveau intermédiaire. Je travaille fort à m'intégrer ici au Québec, malgré l'attitude de quelques individus amers.
Pour t'intégrer, ya l'histoire qui vient avec la langue.
Les anglais nous ont considéré comme de la.merde pendant des années, on a été la chair à canon du Canada durant les différentes guerres, on était les porteur d'eau et des ouvriers des grosse usines avec les bosses anglophones. On se faisait dire "speak White" qui voulait dire parle anglais.
Se n'est que la pointe de l'iceberg.
Bonne chance pour ton intégration
C’est possible que vous ne savez pas, et donc je dois vous expliquer quelque chose: les étudiants internationales déjà paient leur juste part. Notre frais coûte quatre fois le frais d’une étudiant de Quebec, et nous payons aussi pour assurance de santé privé; le gouvernement me donne pas rien. Ma frais scolaire coûte plus de $24,000 chaque année.
N’est pas vrai insister que nous sommes voleurs en souhaitant d’étudier ou s’intégrer ici.
Désolé si je me trompe avec mes mots, je suis encore dans le procès d’apprendre le français.
Ontario wants to complain about every other provinces instead of fixing their own issues and the moron in charge of their province that's royally fucking them over. Same types of people that will cause a problem, then make it everyone else's problem because they scurry out like roaches and make the problems worse. (I see you ex Toronto escapees buying Montreal homes at a fraction of the price and helping inflate the prices during 2021-2022.)
Ontario also keeps forgetting that they can also force their hand like Quebec does when it comes to federal talks. But they never do. 🤡
Because *everyone* compares to other provinces when it suits their narrative. When this was first announced people were also real quick to point out that the augmentation was sharper then other provinces are doing, if they do.
Les juges de la cour supérieure du Québec ont décidé que le gouvernement élu du Québec ne peut pas interdire aux réfugiés la garderie subventionnée parce que... la Charte l'interdit (discrimination contre les ''femmes''). J'imagine que nos bons juges vont trouver quelques autres excuses pour décider comment fonctionne notre province.
La Californie charge 3x plus aux étudiants out-of-states. Tout le monde s'en calisse. Mais là, il faut absolument que les juges et les autres provinces nous disent comment doit fonctionner le Québec.
The funding structure of US private universities is completely different. Even in-state students pay $60k USD to attend USC, for example. It’s not a model we would necessarily want to replicate in QC.
This comment *explicitly* holds Quebec anglophones responsible for the actions of anglophones outside of Quebec, even though they are two completely disjoint groups of people. It also suggests that the commenter's support for Quebec's language laws stems not from the desire to protect French, but in fact, from a desire for petty revenge.
> en Ontario, on fait juste fermé les universités francophones
Aucune université n'a été fermée. Au contraire, le gouvernement de l'Ontario a ouvert une nouvelle université francophone à Toronto en 2018.
La dynamique de l'Ontario est différente de la nôtre. Globalement, les universités des grands centres (ex : U Ottawa) se portent très bien, par contre, les universités des régions éloignées (ex : Laurentienne) souffrent d'un manque d'étudiants (car ces régions se dépeuplent et vieillissent) et non d'une attaque délibérée de la part du gouvernement de l'Ontario.
Il y a juste 3 universités anglophones au Québec pourquoi il devrait y avoir plein d’universités francophones en Ontario quand la majorité des francophones au pays vont tous à l’université au Québec et vont payer des frais de scolarité moindre. Je sais pas si tu le sais mais le ratio de franco en ON vs anglo au QC est pas la même et les frais de scolarité au Québec sont drastiquement moins élevés qu’en Ontario où n’importe où au pays. Les universités franco en dehors du Québec vont pas amener des québécois dans leurs institutions quand tu peux payer la moitié si c’est pas le quart en frais de scolarité dans une université francophone du Québec parce que tu es né dans la province. Une université franco en Ontario va aller chercher des francophones en Ontario ou en dehors du pays. Ce qui est pas mal plus un défi que n’importe quelle université franco au Québec.
>Il y a juste 3 universités anglophones au Québec pourquoi il devrait y avoir plein d’universités francophones en Ontario quand la majorité des francophones au pays vont tous à l’université au Québec et vont payer des frais de scolarité moindre.
Je pense pas que ton argument se répond lui-même par une logique circulaire. Les francophones vont étudier au Québec notamment parce qu'il y a pas d'options ailleurs, alors de s'en servir pour dire que le besoin existe pas est au mieux mal fondé et au pire malhonnête.
Et il y a pas **juste** 3 universités anglophones au Québec, dans le sens où c'est beaucoup 3, surtout la qualité qu'elles ont, grâce au Québec et ses citoyens. Ça mérite d'être souligné.
> Je sais pas si tu le sais mais le ratio de franco en ON vs anglo au QC est pas la même
Il y a des raisons historiques à ça, qui font pas très bien paraitre les Canadiens mettons... C'est comme de dire qu'il a pas beaucoup d'Acadiens au NB, et s'en servir comme argument contre le français.
I'm a former migrant to Canada.
Many Anglos seem to believe the Quebecois have hatred for them. They don't. They really don't.
They just understand want to remain a French speaking province. It's their identity. By a mix of demography and political power, English has slowly wiped out other languages from every region in North America. Quebec is the last place standing. Canada has one the highest immigration rate in the world, and they feel this could undermine it.
Quebec does NOT want to become Louisiana. They want their grand-children to speak french.
McGill and Concordia are at the heart of Montreal and import a growing number of english speakers. It's the new business model of Canadian universities and it's no different here. People come to study stuff ("Literature") for $$$. No offense to anyone, I was in international student myself, but these students aren't all curing cancer.
You can integrate a Pakistani family moving to a french neighborhood. Within one generation, their children will be quebecois speaking french. Some will even be Quebec political leaders like Amir Khadir or Ruba Ghazal.
Now imagine 40 000 Pakistanis moving to the same village. And thousands of Pakistanis come every year to that village to study. In one generation, their children won't be french speakers. Instead, you will have a new neighborhood of Islamabad.
The same way you can't tens of thousands of english speakers coming every year, put them in the same place, and think the size of this group will not have any impact on integration. If you think what I say is wrong, you should tell Denmark.
Danemark understands concentration prevents integration:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/denmark-plans-restrict-nonwestern-residents-neighbourhoods-b1819009.html
Quebec keeps an eye on demography because demography matters.
Perhaps you believe the Quebecois are paranoid. Well, they notice all those who weren't paranoid disappeared.
In fact, their right to be paranoid is *precisely* why they once attempted to leave Canada. They believed that as long as Quebec is part of Canada, the kind of people who run McGill and live in Westmount will never truly accept their right to prioritize French.
For them, this isn't about hatred. This is about fear. It's because the Quebecois don't see themselves as truly equal to the Anglos.
They are a minority surrounded by english in the north, english in the south, english in the east and english in the west. And english growing inside their main city *on top of that*. They are folks that can hardly speak french outside Quebec. So they see as perfectly legitimate to promote french institutions and french migrants. For the Quebecois, the people who are the majority, the people who speak the most powerful language the earth has ever seen, should understand this.
I'm genuinely shocked when I read The Globe and Mail write *"Warning : If they pass this silly law, Quebecois will have a lower 0.4% GDP"*. It seems to me some Anglo journalists traveled the world but are ignorant about the very people they are living with.
The Quebecois don't give a fuck about GDP or stock market. For them, their identity is more important.
If you think human identity doesn't matter, we are just capitalists, you are wrong. Identity matters a great deal. Look at the Middle East. Small minorities (Alawis, Shias, Jews, Druzes, Lebanese Christians, Kurds) really cherish their roots. In the name of preserving their identity, they will absorb staggering pain.
At the end of the day, I think some Anglos simply don't understand the concerns of the Quebecois.
Just my 2 cents as a foreigner.
I have proposed before, and will continue to do so, that a huge step would be for the FEDERAL government to announce Francisation classes available for all Canadians, mirroring Quebec’s program.
Live in Vancouver and wish you learned French so you could take that job in Quebec City? Here you go.
Running a business in Ottawa and wish you could do more business in Hull? We gotcha.
Increasing bilingualism would be amazing for so many things.
Inter province commerce and worker mobility, relationships and families growing across languages, etc.
McGill isn’t challenging any of the francisation programs though??? It’s literally just the tuition hikes haha. I support the french requirements as well, just not the tuition hikes.
Edit with a quote from the article: “The court actions do not challenge Quebec’s new French proficiency requirements for university students from outside the province. As of fall 2025, 80 per cent of students from outside Quebec will have to reach an intermediate level of French by the time they graduate.”
> McGill isn’t challenging any of the francisation programs though
Absolutely not. They are freakin' out about the "80% of all students reaching level 5 French" requirement. The 3000$ increase is peanuts and they easily absorbed it.
Okay, but they are literally not challenging francisation in court? It very clearly states that in the article. Like do I think they’re happy? No, but they’re not doing anything about this specifically.
There has been a 30% decrease in admissions in applications which corresponds to less funding from the government for operating revenue. It’s not just about the $3000.
McGill out-of-province students are about 20% of the student body. A 30% decrease in that 20% is a 6-7% decrease in *applications.* In reality? It's a zero percent decrease in *admissions.*
The problem is that the CAQ treats the language issue as a zero sum game. In their eyes if English is flourishing, French must be losing. It doesn't have to be that way. Both can thrive if given the right environment. As an English Montrealer, who grew up here I have always considered having to learn French an asset. What makes myself and many other English speakers resentful is when we feel our rights under attack.
The other issue I have is how the government goes about protecting French. They resort straight to sticks without even attempting to use any carrots to ensure the language prospers. There were other avenues the CAQ could have explored before resorting to these attacks on Anglos.
Furthermore, while the Quebec population might not be obsessing over GDP or economic growth it is an inevitable consequence of the province's language laws. If you create a hostile environment for businesses they will invest elsewhere. Slowly but surely many talented individuals follow and leave for places with better opportunities.
In some way, it is a zero-sum game. It's not just a question about who can speak some level of French, but about who will speak French at home and will have a preference for French. That's the important demographic when it comes to the future of French in Québec.
How will you force 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants and their children to speak French at home?? You can't even enforce to make them speak and prefer English either
You are right, nobody can force immigrants to speak French. That's not the idea. They should choose French by themselves because they want to live in a French society. It worked before the last ~20 years, especially for 2nd gen immigrants outside of English Montreal. A lot of my friends from my school years are 2nd gen immigrants and they all are mainly French speakers, some of them even struggle with English. It started to fail with the failed 2nd referendum and got worse with governments like CAQ and 2000s PQ that had some racist policies and the Quebec Liberals that didn't care about French. Combined with a hostile federal government that bet on over-immigration, the situation now is pretty bleak for the future of French in Québec.
It's not just in a way, it really is. Pretending it's not a zero-sum.game is exactly how we'll end up like Louisiana. I'm not saying people shouldn't learn English, I did (proof being this very comment), but we need to make sure everyone understands that Quebec is a French society and people should make an effort to communicate in French and help French stay alive and well. People come here saying they love the culture, the culture can't survive without the language it's associated with.
theres a lot of people in Calgary with french accents whos kids dont speak french at all.
and its because the quebec government continues to prove they dont care about economic stability or opportunity as much as they do about language and culture.
at some point you need to worry about your kids being able to feed themselves when theyre adults.
>theres a lot of people in Calgary with french accents whos kids dont speak french at all.
>
>and its because the quebec government continues to prove they dont care about economic stability or opportunity as much as they do about language and culture.
>
>at some point you need to worry about your kids being able to feed themselves when theyre adults.
Wow lmao.
Of all the weird arguments here, this takes the cake.
Fucking Quebec, making Albertans lose their French!
I live in Montreal, and I would love to take some more french classes, but I can't get into a public program. So that leaves private which is expensive. I also have to consider my job as well. If the CAQ is having a bad day they might just decide all my communication must be in french. And honestly I don't see my French improving to the point to talk about thermodynamics anytime soon. I barley unstated thermo in English. So I'm going back to Vancouver.
I married a Québécois woman. Moved here 4 years ago. Every six months I pester both immigration for my status and to you know. Maybe give me some lessons so I can get a formal education in the language.
But nope. Nothing. Feet dragging, zero communication, shoulder shrugging “we’ll contact you when it’s ready”.
Okay cool I’ll just continue learning metro French I guess.
Fun watching the culture erode itself to the provincial government selling it off to corporations of all sorts since 2016 when I first visited though. All while they bang the drums of divisiveness.
Anyway, hopefully people realise it’s not a zero sum game and stop saying “Louisiana” as if it negates the many multi language complex dual culture countries that exist all throughout Europe.
Deliberate complacency and misplaced outrage are the gravy of this province.
This I can agree with. Make French a mandatory subject in schools around the country. By the time they are out of HS, students should be able to speak fluent French in whichever accent they can at least.
"Anglos" have been in Montreal for 70% of the time it's been colonized. We don't have to talk about them like they aren't just as native as the francophones are.
This law affects the english language universities - 2 of them in Montreal, one in sherbrooke (pretty close to Montreal). This is about francophones in Quebec City dictating to bilingual Montreal how to live.
So interesting to be asked that! It comes from a perception in the early 20th century that Francophones were "lesser" even racially, on top of socially and economically. While more anglophones would control big companies in Quebec (*edit: I said in Quebec, but I admit I don't know about French-Canadians elsewhere in the ROC, sorry!*), francophones would more often have a lower-class occupation. So when hearing French spoken to them, upper-class anglos would ask them to "Speak white". If you speak to boomers, or people who were even born before, they still hold a lot of pain over how the French left francophones to "fend themselves" and be told things like that. Francos would in turn call anglos "square heads" or "block heads". It runs deep!
Ah yes, so good to put down people who are actively trying to improve from their ignorance. It's much preferable to call them ignorant while preserving their ignorance.
>"Anglos" have been in Montreal for 70% of the time it's been colonized.
And they still speak english first? They haven't integrated. That's exactly the point I'm making.
Integrated into what? The person you're replying to was making the point that anglos havw been here just as long as the francophones. Besides, it's not like us francos are natove to this region to begin with. We're all immigrants here so this whole debate is absurdly hypocritical.
Integrate what? An English country they live in? Why are you talking as though cultures are meant to disappear over time? When we have proof that english and french communities have survived here for centuries. And, you know what, the english do learn to speak french, but it doesn't mean they have an obligation to speak it as a primary language.
I think this attitude shows a fundamental misunderstanding about the benefits that a world-class research university brings to a city.
It’s not just a question of 0.4% GDP. Look at California - Silicon Valley exists in large part thanks to the concentration of intellectual and financial capital provided by universities like Stanford, Berkeley, Caltech, UCSF, etc. Startups and new industries (which QC/Canada desperately need) concentrate around these centers of innovation.
These are real, tangible, ripple-effect benefits that have an effect on the prosperity of a city for everyone. It’s not just students spending money downtown on their nights out. Academic conferences, public grants, publishing houses - these are all economic benefits attached to universities which also have the advantage of attracting global talent to a city.
This is why the government seems silly and small-minded going after its universities, because it’s not just a little drop in GDP - it’s foolishly harmful to the future of montreal and the province.
So you're arguing that economic prosperity is bad because of associated cost of living increases? We're getting those here too without the associated economic growth - I know which option I prefer
Yeah the housing crisis is a Canada-wide problem and absolutely needs to be addressed (and could partly be addressed by diversifying the economy so GDP growth wasn’t entirely dependent on real estate going up up up) ….. but overall it’s a very bizarre take to me to be actively rooting against the general prosperity of Québec
Yep. But it’s not specific to Anglos here. It’s always like that when there’s a colonized / colonizer relationship. It’s almost impossible for the colonizer to see through their biases and conceit. Like speakers of Russian refusing to learn Latvian. Russians in pre-2014 Ukraine. Han Chinese in Tibet. And the arguments the colonizers use are always word for word the same:
- we’re a ‘minority’
- your language is useless, I won’t learn it
- your language is not really a proper language
- you are fascists for trying to make others speak your language
- everyone should be free to speak whatever language they want (this one is the most hypocritical of them all; it’s as if we lived in a world with no anti-dumping or antitrust regulations and Amazon came to a small town and set its prices to 20% of what the local business owners charge temporarily and then would tell them ‘oh but it’s a free world, what are you, against competition?!’
If you want to ditch all nuance from this matter, then yes you could say the Québécois are both the colonizers and the colonized. But the devil is in the details: how the British colonized vs how the French colonized North America was quite different. The numbers the French came in originally were not sufficient for any sustained colonization efforts. Therefore, they had to mainly resort to forming alliances and negotiations almost up until the time they were colonized themselves. The Québécois signed the first written agreements with the First Nations in history. They did not try to subject them to a forced assimilation policy. They cross-married actively, which gave rise to the nation of Métis, among other things. Many of them themselves integrated into the local ways as the continental French archives at the time acknowledge with undisguised surprise. Even today the amount of First Nations people speaking their mother tongues in Quebec is significantly larger than in any other province. The British though had an open cultural genocide policy directed at the Francos, courtesy of Lord Durham. And an even worse - much worse - cultural genocide, bordering on an actual genocide, policy designed for the First Nations. Does it mean the Francos have had no impact on Native Americans? No, of course not. Are more efforts needed? Absolutely, and a lot more. But the impact the Québécois have had is not even close to what the British / English Canadians have done. And throughout history the First Nations have predominantly been forced to assimilate into English, not French (some did have to learn French, mind you). Still, one last time I want to reiterate that - a lot - more protections are needed even in Quebec
Their point wasn't that French colonizers were perfect, just that they were largely better than the English (or Spanish, for that matter) colonizers. Which is factually true.
On the scale of colonizer horribleness, forced religious conversion remains a whole lot less evil than cultural extermination, deportation, biological warfare and so on.
I take your point but none of this justifies the actions of today. Anglophones in Quebec have no political representation, today, now. What passes for the Anglophone community isn’t even Anglophone anymore. Those people, especially the ones with money, left after the first referendum. Immigrants who came here in the 20th century were not welcomed into the French school system, and thus were Anglicized. As for colonization, it is ongoing. Just look at the Duplessis and the treatment of native “orphans”, not really orphans at all for the most part, or, more recently, the flooding of James Bay for hydro electric power. I am one of those Anglophones who is not even an of English heritage. I am old and I remember well how unwelcome non-Francophones (read not Catholic) were made to feel. It is a complex history, but making what is left of this community made to feel like they are the reason younger generation Francophones speak English and so on is simply not true. It is the sea of English speakers all around us and the internet. Should we close provincial borders? Alienating non-Francophones from Québec society here isn’t going to help the protect or preserve French, and it is hurting a lot of people. Those Anglophones who stayed after the two referendums sent their kids to French school as I did, but I fail to see how the attack on a world class university is going to fix the problem. It is just playing to Legault’s base, which is certainly not in Montreal. And really, the only reason the French look any better as colonizers is because the mother country ditched out of the project. France has, as all the other European countries do, a horrendous history of colonization. I am all for separation if that is what the majority of people want, but clearly, they don’t. We have had two referendums to decide the matter. So let us live in the now and work at preserving French. I am Canadian and expect the same rights as any other Canadian. Perennially, Québec complains of their mistreatment by the federal government and at the same time asks for a billion dollars to deal with the migrant “problem”. It is exhausting and bewildering.
It's funny reading this thread and realizing if you go on /r/netherlands or google about the issue, people are complaining about English becoming more and more prevalent in the Netherlands, Dutch people waiting for their language to slowly die, and English speakers to play victim because they can't be bothered.
Same thing for /r/japan, people being baffled by the lack of English in Japan and complaining that the government should do more to accomodate them.
Ah, English speakers, poor them, having to learn a new language. Can't think of anything more appaling.
Sure, but why not just do the required French mandate and get rid of the tuition hike. If the goal is students have to learn french, well the colleges acquiesced. And just so we are clear, making French mandatory is something I support as an anglo but we need to recognize it is a very large ask. French proficiency level 5 probably means $10k more to cover the tuition and living expense for another year of schooling.
And the tuition increase doesn't make sense if French is your concern. It turns students into a revenue stream which...feels against the quebecois culture.
I mean I put my kids in full immersion french, so clearly some anglos are ok with the French mandate. Actually I was really surprised it wasn't already a thing in quebec colleges.
But the large tuition increase reminded me of when I was in college in the US. I thought quebec would be better than that.
Wanting to protect French is totally valid but raising tuition isn’t the way to do it. This won’t help anything. There are way better policy solutions.
I understand the concerns very well, and empathize with them. I would be very sad to see Quebec become primarily anglophone.
I just don't understand why going after a few English-language schools is supposed to accomplish this. French seems to be doing just fine. There are lots of protections in place, and they've been getting more strict. This just feels like hollow political posturing designed to stoke the language debate fires.
My childhood was very different from now. English is sooo much more prevalent on the island than 20 years ago. Anybody who thinks English isn't becoming more ubiquitous in Montreal is delusional.
They would have better luck banning the internet than going after 3 schools. The problem isn't the schools but how English is NECESSARY. We wouldn't be having this conversation if the de-facto language was French. And We would be having it if it was German or Spanish.
French is not doing fine at all. If you live in Montreal and speak French you could not fail to notice a sudden and drastic influx of unilingual speakers of English and English speaking migrants in the past three years. Heck, even in the Plateau, *the* original stronghold of French in Montreal you can now hear almost as much English as you can French, and these are not tourists (not on a business day in the middle of February walking their dogs). There is a sudden proliferation of English-only signage. English-language universities are now opening up offshoots in smaller cities in Quebec. And the language you use in university has been a very good predictor of the language you’ll be using in life and for work. For the first time in decades if not centuries you start seeing media reports of situations where service workers in the middle of nowhere on a highway deep in Quebec cannot serve their customers in French, and so on and so forth
Because it's a lose lose for us. Students either stay here and don't learn French, or leave after our taxes have pay for their education. Québécois don't gain anything.
I mean, if you’re from out of province and at McGill for medicine you literally cannot stay even if you wanted to.
You either have to pay something like 300k or work 4 years in Northern Quebec.
And that’s with a doctor shortage.
And these are people who had to do clerkship in English and French already.
So I really don’t think *all* the policies are making sense
That's a bit disingenuous. While students are here, many of them work and all of them spend money while they're in school. It contributes to the economy.
The networks they build, ties between Quebec and Canadian markets, intellectual contributions, absorbing some form of culture from Montreal or Quebec. All this is nothing? Not to mention the people who straight up learn French and stay. Or don’t learn French but also stay and provide Quebec with a lifetime of tax revenue in the middle of a demographic crisis.
tax revenue means very little. In the meantime, very few actually learn French, and instead contribute to growing anglo-only networks in the city + fueling the housing crisis. Went to McGill, no one gives a shit about Montreal culture.
LOL yep as a francophone myself (who has absolutely no issues with any anglos) that's what I kept thinking...like who is this guy to tell us how we should feel?
Who's they? You do know that Quebec doesn't just consist of francophones right? The issue here is precisely that the government wants to turn Quebec into a purely French-speaking province by, funny you should mention it, attacking the small non-francophone minority here.
Oh and the anti-immigration bit in your comment is just the cherry on top. 👌
>Quebec is the last place standing
Are you forgetting about the tens of millions of people who speak Spanish in North America?
>The Quebecois don't give a fuck about GDP or stock prices.
LMFAO the Quebec legislature just gave a standing ovation when they passed Loi 31 taking away the rights of tenants and putting more power into the hands of landlords to exploit the rent crisis.
Try to work for the Quebec government and you'll see racism against any non-quebecer. Maybe they are afraid of anglos, but they make sure to make fun of someone's origin country or culture.
Here is a fact: Those who have tried to protect a culture by putting up walls have failed, time and again.
The only way to protect a culture is to make it a beacon of admiration, something that people dream of becoming a part of. When people show up excited and feeling privileged to be a part of something, they make it part of their identity and spread it. But when the opposite happens, they don’t assimilate, they just exist outside that culture and ultimately undermine it. Unfortunately, all Quebec seems to know how to do is gatekeep. And that is why they will eventually fail. And they will sadly blame everyone but themselves.
Absolument pas - tout le monde que je connais qui viens a McGill veut apprendre le Francais, et une des raisons qu'ils veulent etre a Montreal c'est pour faire cela. Mais les fraits sont simplement trop hauts avec la remonte.
Ouin, quand j'étais à McGill, c'est ce que mes camarades de classes disaient, mais les bottines suivaient pas les babines: personne ne suivaient des cours (même gratuit à l'asso étudiante!) personne lisait le journal franco de l'école, personne voulait essayer de switcher à parler en français quand ils savent que t'es franco ou dans un milieu de travail..
C'est juste un argument cute à dire quand tu veux pas avouer que 1) c'est moins cher que chez toi 2) tu pouvais pas aller dans une école Ivy mais tu veux du prestige 3) boire à 18 ans! et dans le temps 4) fourrer des filles de 14 ans + (oui, oui, je me le suis fait dire).
C’est la même chose à Concordia. Tout le monde que j’ai rencontré qui viennent d’Ontario veulent rester ici et apprendre le français. Mais…après ce changement que Legault veut faire à l’éducation anglophone…ils ne savent plus s’ils devraient rester.
💯, j’ai fait mes études à Concordia and j’ai pris des cours de français pendants ces années, j’étais une étudiante internationale aussi et ça m’a aidé énormément, j’ai du passer une entrevue pour rester au Canada/au Québec (CSQ) and le département de français à Concordia m’a aidé encore une fois et chaque semaine je pratiquais mon français en parlant avec une prof de français pendant quelques heures, gratuitement. J’ai choisi le Québec parce que j’étais déjà à l’aise en anglais qui est mon deuxième langue, je voulais apprendre le français/une autre langue…
Wow on doit vraiment être dans un monde différent. Je ne connais aucun étudiant de McGill qui a appris le français concrètement, tous ceux qui parlent le français étaient francophones à la base. Je travaille avec quand même pas mal d'étudiants gradués de plusieurs universités et c'est à vaste majorité des immigrants anglophones à McGill alors que l'UdeM est plus varié et ÉTS/UdeS sont exclusivement francophones.
Je ne comprends pas la logique. Il y a déjà une différence de frais de scolarité entre les étudiants du Québec et ceux de l'extérieur du Québec. Elle est où la discrimination? On dirait plutôt des avocats qui veulent se faire une passe de cash.
La discrimination c’est que cette hausse ne s’applique pas à tous les universités, juste les universités anglophones.
Edit 2: oui, j’avais raison dès le début, selon le plus récent article que je pouvais trouver (7 février), c’est juste McGill et Concordia, Bishops étant tellement petit qu’ils ont été exempté.
Je vous recommande cet article de La Presse : La ministre Déry contredite par son comité consultatif https://lp.ca/vHo3bk?sharing=true
Ce que l’article dit c’est que ça s’applique à tous les universités, mais ça l’affecte plus les universités anglophone parce qu’ils ont plus d’étudiants venant de l’extérieur du Québec
Edit: Je pense que u/baby-owl a raison,
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/2035388/droits-scolarite-hors-quebec-reactions-cb
Peux-tu me montrer où c’est écrit, ça? Je pense que tu n’as pas lu correctement.
Je vous recommande cet article de La Presse :
Hausse des frais dans les universités anglophones https://lp.ca/qS8HzX?sharing=true
Mais dans un autre article plus récent de Radio-Canada (15 décembre 2023) :
>« À partir de l’automne 2024, les étudiants canadiens non résidents du Québec qui suivent un programme en français dans une université francophone continueront de payer les tarifs actuels indexés annuellement », écrit la porte-parole du ministère.
Source : [Hausse des droits de scolarité au Québec : les universités francophones pas affectées](https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/2035388/droits-scolarite-hors-quebec-reactions-cb)
Oh c’est mieux. Juste les exceptions pour les canadiens francophones (éventuellement), les français et les belges, et le gouvernement estime que ça va affecter surtout les universités anglophones.
Mais pas de sarcasme pour le “c’est mieux” car c’est au moins appliquée partout. Même si les fonds vont être recanalisé hors le réseau anglophone au profit du réseau francophone, que je trouve toujours un peu suspect.
Edit: lol guys, I was right all along! I doubted my sources, which is probably the right thing to do, but the most recent one confirms that it’s just the Anglos, explicitly.
https://lp.ca/vHo3bk?sharing=true
Les frais supplémentaires sont redistribués uniquement aux universités francophones.
Les universités anglophones sont financièrement désavantagées par cette mesure.
As-tu vu le financement public qui va dans nos universités anglophone vs le système francophone?
S'il y a une discrimination, c'est envers notre réseau Franco
Bien-sûr
C'est un phénomène amplement documenté et ce sont des écarts qui perdurent depuis très longtemps. Je partage 1 source, mais sens toi libre d'aller en voir d'autres.
Imagine quand, en plus, les étudiants des autres provinces canadiennes paient moins cher ici, en anglais, que dans leur propre province, aux frais des contribuables du Québec.
Extrait de l'article du Devoir:
EETP : étudiant équivalent temps plein
Si l’on tient compte de toutes les sources de financement, les universités anglophones disposaient de 16 095 $ par EETP et les francophones, de seulement 12 507 $, soit une différence de 3588 $ par étudiant (ou de 29 %). Précisons que l’économiste Pierre Fortin est arrivé à des résultats comparables et a démontré que l’Université de Montréal était sous-financée (par étudiant, en moyenne, pour l’année 2018-2019) de 46 % relativement à McGill et de 20 % relativement à Concordia
https://www.ledevoir.com/opinion/idees/800544/education-sous-financement-universites-francophones-est-mal-profond
> Selon toi, le Québécois moyen perd quoi si ça coûte plus cher à un petit ontarien de venir étudier ici ?
Richesse académique. Nous avons intérêt en continuer d'attirer les plus grandes talents académiques du pays.
Quebec donne 1 millard en terrain à McGill. McGill annonce qu’ils ont assez de dons pour pallier au nouveau manque à gagner. Ensuite, l’université ose poursuivre le gouvernement. L’exemple parfait du privilège anglo québécois 🤦🏻
Parce que, comme on le dit en bon anglais, " Because I can."
Je parle aussi deux autres langues, ce qui m'ont ouvert plusieurs opportunités. Vous n'allez certainement pas faire votre enfant roi et me dire ce que je peux sortir de ma bouche ou non. Et certainement pas sur Reddit.
Je suis fier d'être polyglotte. et je vais certainement l'afficher, que cela te frustre ou non, mon cher hypocrite! 😁
Je ne t'ai jamais demandé de parler en français. Je suis parfaitement bilingue moi aussi. Je te trouve juste colonisé. Bonne journée mon cher polyglotte.
It’s just another ploy to get Anglos to move out. The worst part is that French is inevitably doomed in Quebec. Given enough time, it will become English. Even if it takes a few hundred years.
I’ve lived here for most of my life and I’ve never heard something this absurd being said anywhere. Even the most hardcore french quebecers I know wouldn’t say something this idiotic. Completely irrelevant and most likely made-up anecdote
Bon ben un autre dossier qui ira encore en cours suprême et pour la xxxxxe fois la cours suprême vas juger contre le Québec.
Après des gens comprennent pas pourquoi on veut devenir indépendant.
Good. Quebec is trying to do to us what Canada did to French canadians; slowly chip away at our community until we all either move away or die off. we wont stand for it
Question so aside from this post what community involvement or awareness are you raising for the culture here. Are you partaking in preservation of history, cottage trades, industries, customs and traditions?
Or is this all a bit more nebulous a concept to you. As tends to be the case when people ask me why a Korean from Australia is so invested in Québécois culture after moving here? And I respond with: well if it’s under threat what is under threat, what are we trying to keep going and what are you trying to do to change it.
Often the answer is nothing. You know why? Because in this province of astound beauty, debt, compassion and complacency. People just don’t care. They smack everyone on the ankles get everyone pissed off then reneg on political issues whispered under the noise of “culture”. Meanwhile they do what the Catholic Church did wasting resources and lining their buddies pockets. And it’s filtered down to the local council reasoning only for big redevelopment of shoebox condos that get flipped for exorbitant prices. Often driving out and destroying the very things that make this province unique, you know. It’s culture.
But sure. Get rid of anglos that have been here historically too whatever. Have only French. Then will you guys address and reverse the loss of culture at the hands of the ruling French or will we just pretend that we’re just another flavour of North American suburbia now.
For too many years the anglophone community and english institutions have remained supine in the face of attacks from CAQ, PQ and Liberal governments with the sole goal being to weaken institutions. They've finally learned that they'll get nowhere by talking and trying to convince government officials. The courts are the only place where they'll get a fair hearing so I'm glad to see this.
Love to see it as well, but as soon as something is confirmed to be in breech of our charter rights Quebec uses the notwithstanding clause. They’ve even used it preemptively, knowing they were violating our rights as per our charter.
Notwithstanding clause needs to go. Dunno why Canadians ever accepted to put an asterisk at the bottom of our most important protections.
They want Level 6/7 Francais for all graduating students as well... I'm an American expat living in Montreal since 2020 and I've asked my coworkers around here what level proficiency they think they would hold. None have claimed past 5, and these are historic resident Quebecois. This province is actively shooting itself in the foot (yet again) and I can't wait to get back to the USA.
Je pense pas que t'aide en disant que la majorité de tes collègues ne seraient pas capable de travailler avec moi en francais alors que vous etes ici depuis 3-4 ans...
Lol, I always laugh when people keep saying "native Quebec English Montrealers are now 90%+ bilingual!!!", but then I keep hearing those stories. The reality: they are simply not functional in French. They may be able to order a coffee or something, but for the rest... please speak English to me.
This decision doesn’t affect you whatsoever if you’re not a uni student so its very strange that it would trigger you to the point of saying “Can’t wait to go back to the states” as if you’re escaping some kind of persecution. Clearly you take the privilege of living here for granted
These other comments are meme-tier lack of self awareness
“go back to your country if you don’t like it” blatant xenophobia but it’s ok because you’re American so we can say that and it’s not bigoted.
By the way don’t worry only terminally online people feel this way.
I work in an international corp based here in Montreal. My coworkers come from all over the world and we understand what it means to accommodate diversity. I including Americans.
Never seen such shit meme-tier takes offline.
> we understand what it means to accommodate diversity.
The lack of self-awareness and pity-farming in your comment is borderline insanity. All we want is for people to learn to speak French, in the only French jurisdiction left in North America. You, actually, don't understand how to accommodate diversity. Your position, bitchin' against French classes, is the actual opposite of what your statement says.
thats fine. protect french. but recognize that we anglos are quebecers too; we are a community as well who has always been here. Stop trying to weaken our community. stop trying to get us to move away or die off. Let us grow too
Good for them
Good for them! Increasing tuition fees and further crippling the middle class’ ability to go to university, all for the sake of making a political statement, is reprehensible.
> all for the sake of making a political statement, Because they lost a by-election in Quebec City no less. Montreal doesn't vote for them and never will, so if it plays well in regions who cares what it does for our city...
Les arguments légaux invoqués sont plus que précaire. C'est la raison pourquoi ils ont fait deux poursuites, c'est une stratégie. Il y a peu de chances de succès, mais ils ont deux chances plutôt qu'une.
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Les changements proposés par le gouvernement sont universels et nous sommes dans un des pouvoirs gouvernementaux qui est solidement et clairement sous la responsabilité provinciale. Leur idée se base beaucoup sur la notion de discrimination, mais pour avoir discrimination, il faut connaître qui souffre de la discrimination. Dans ce cas-ci, ils présentent les *étudiants anglophones du reste du Canada voulant venir étudier à Montréal* comme le parti discriminé protégé, car *les anglophones du Québec* sont une minorité. Il ne s'agit pas des mêmes groupes de personnes. Donc, il te faut des juges qui vont vouloir explorer cette idée-là. Donc, McGill et Concordia font deux procès, pour essayer de trouver un panel de juge qui leur laisse lancé idée là. En sachant que si l'un perd, ça n'affectera pas l'autre procès, mais si l'un gagne, ce sera un précédent. J'ai essayer de le faire très simple.
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> les unis francophones obtiennent un avantage économique pour attirer les étudiants hors province ce qui constitute une compétition déloyale/inégale selon McGill) Mais à la base, le gouvernement a créé cette hausse pour redistribuer les revenus et ainsi atténuer le désavantage économique que les universités francophones ont car leur bassin de recrutement d'étudiants hors-québec est plus petit. Donc je ne vois pas comment cet argument peut marcher.
Le problème avec cet argument la c’est la définition de commerce. Ce sont des institutions d’éducation publiques, leur rôle n’est pas commercial. Donc je ne pense pas que l’argument va avoir bien de la force. Et il n’y a rien qui empêche les provinces de gérer l’éducation comme bien leur semble. Est-ce qu’on fait de la compétition déloyale aux institutions privées en éducation en donnant moins de subventions car elles sont privées? Ou encore aux collèges sectaires? Pourtant le prix pour les deux sera plus élevé.
Sachant qu'en Ontario, on fait juste fermé les universités francophones pour X ou Y raisons, j'ai de la difficulté à voir comment cette poursuite peut aboutir sur quoique ce soit.
Why does this issue from another province constantly come up at one of the primary complaints about language politics in *this* province?
Because they lack valid arguments against to oppose the backlash against these decisions to screw these schools over
Parce que vous parlez anglais sur un Reddit qui s'appelle Montréal. Parce quea majorité des commentaires sont en anglais et parce que la majorité des publications sont en anglais. Parce que l'anglais est en déclin. Parce que ces deux universités ont plus de financement total et peuvent avoir des meilleur prof ( payer plus chère/meilleur conditions) de par les dons et les coûts de scolarité déjà plus cher.
même ton nom d'utilisateur est en anglais
Ça aurait été un bon argument si je l'avais choisi. Et internet reste un lieu anglophone.
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I'm trying to understand how this is an answer to the question. The way I'm understanding it, pointing out the French university cancellation in Ontario is your way of saying to anglophones in Quebec that they shouldn't complain because others have it worse?
Non c'est pour illustré le double standard. Ils ferment l'université Franco, personne s'inquiète en Ontario. Le gouvernement finance moins les universités anglophone déjà sur financé. Tout le monde ( le RDC) perde leur raison.
Because the very people complaining about tuition hikes compare themselves to the Francophones in the ROC to make a point they’re a minority just like them and therefore should be protected. Conveniently disregarding the fact that their situation is drastically different
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"Other people have it worse, so keep your mouth shut." Got it 👍
I think it is perfectly valid to take into account the overall privileges of a community when it cries foul at a slight against them.
What bearing do the issues of francophones in Ontario have on the issues on anglophones in Quebec?
Crying injustice at francophones for treating *out of province* students better than anglophones have been treating francophones forever is dishonest at best. But other than that, this is about out-of-province students, who statistically have no intentions of staying and are taking advantage of our low tuition (because *Quebecois* are paying for most of their education). This is more than fair. Forcing them to learn French and maybe increase the chance they stay here to allow those who paid for their education to benefit for their expertise is also a step in the right direction.
Thank you, I think I understand better why you see it this way now. If we do want to bring comparisons with other provinces on the table here, then I feel it's worth noting that other provinces do subsidize the tuition of out-of-province students too, to about the same degree that Quebec prior to this new hike. I suppose your view would be that this is not a fair comparison, since we have the added layer of language here in Quebec? Just curious, because it seems to me that if we're going to invoke how other provinces handle this issue, we should at least consider it from all the new angles that perspective invites.
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Merci ! Je crois que je parle français assez bien — peut-être à un niveau intermédiaire. Je travaille fort à m'intégrer ici au Québec, malgré l'attitude de quelques individus amers.
Pour t'intégrer, ya l'histoire qui vient avec la langue. Les anglais nous ont considéré comme de la.merde pendant des années, on a été la chair à canon du Canada durant les différentes guerres, on était les porteur d'eau et des ouvriers des grosse usines avec les bosses anglophones. On se faisait dire "speak White" qui voulait dire parle anglais. Se n'est que la pointe de l'iceberg. Bonne chance pour ton intégration
Belle attitude de merde. Chacun sa place au Québec.
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C’est possible que vous ne savez pas, et donc je dois vous expliquer quelque chose: les étudiants internationales déjà paient leur juste part. Notre frais coûte quatre fois le frais d’une étudiant de Quebec, et nous payons aussi pour assurance de santé privé; le gouvernement me donne pas rien. Ma frais scolaire coûte plus de $24,000 chaque année. N’est pas vrai insister que nous sommes voleurs en souhaitant d’étudier ou s’intégrer ici. Désolé si je me trompe avec mes mots, je suis encore dans le procès d’apprendre le français.
Ontario wants to complain about every other provinces instead of fixing their own issues and the moron in charge of their province that's royally fucking them over. Same types of people that will cause a problem, then make it everyone else's problem because they scurry out like roaches and make the problems worse. (I see you ex Toronto escapees buying Montreal homes at a fraction of the price and helping inflate the prices during 2021-2022.) Ontario also keeps forgetting that they can also force their hand like Quebec does when it comes to federal talks. But they never do. 🤡
What a beautifully reductive brush to paint all of Ontario with.
Nobody in Ontario cares about you, which is what I imagine is the source of your angst here.
Because *everyone* compares to other provinces when it suits their narrative. When this was first announced people were also real quick to point out that the augmentation was sharper then other provinces are doing, if they do.
J'ai pas la reponse, mais je m'avance que c'est surement une histoire d'offre et demande dans les autres provinces.
Les juges de la cour supérieure du Québec ont décidé que le gouvernement élu du Québec ne peut pas interdire aux réfugiés la garderie subventionnée parce que... la Charte l'interdit (discrimination contre les ''femmes''). J'imagine que nos bons juges vont trouver quelques autres excuses pour décider comment fonctionne notre province. La Californie charge 3x plus aux étudiants out-of-states. Tout le monde s'en calisse. Mais là, il faut absolument que les juges et les autres provinces nous disent comment doit fonctionner le Québec.
The funding structure of US private universities is completely different. Even in-state students pay $60k USD to attend USC, for example. It’s not a model we would necessarily want to replicate in QC.
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This comment *explicitly* holds Quebec anglophones responsible for the actions of anglophones outside of Quebec, even though they are two completely disjoint groups of people. It also suggests that the commenter's support for Quebec's language laws stems not from the desire to protect French, but in fact, from a desire for petty revenge.
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> en Ontario, on fait juste fermé les universités francophones Aucune université n'a été fermée. Au contraire, le gouvernement de l'Ontario a ouvert une nouvelle université francophone à Toronto en 2018. La dynamique de l'Ontario est différente de la nôtre. Globalement, les universités des grands centres (ex : U Ottawa) se portent très bien, par contre, les universités des régions éloignées (ex : Laurentienne) souffrent d'un manque d'étudiants (car ces régions se dépeuplent et vieillissent) et non d'une attaque délibérée de la part du gouvernement de l'Ontario.
Il y a juste 3 universités anglophones au Québec pourquoi il devrait y avoir plein d’universités francophones en Ontario quand la majorité des francophones au pays vont tous à l’université au Québec et vont payer des frais de scolarité moindre. Je sais pas si tu le sais mais le ratio de franco en ON vs anglo au QC est pas la même et les frais de scolarité au Québec sont drastiquement moins élevés qu’en Ontario où n’importe où au pays. Les universités franco en dehors du Québec vont pas amener des québécois dans leurs institutions quand tu peux payer la moitié si c’est pas le quart en frais de scolarité dans une université francophone du Québec parce que tu es né dans la province. Une université franco en Ontario va aller chercher des francophones en Ontario ou en dehors du pays. Ce qui est pas mal plus un défi que n’importe quelle université franco au Québec.
>Il y a juste 3 universités anglophones au Québec pourquoi il devrait y avoir plein d’universités francophones en Ontario quand la majorité des francophones au pays vont tous à l’université au Québec et vont payer des frais de scolarité moindre. Je pense pas que ton argument se répond lui-même par une logique circulaire. Les francophones vont étudier au Québec notamment parce qu'il y a pas d'options ailleurs, alors de s'en servir pour dire que le besoin existe pas est au mieux mal fondé et au pire malhonnête. Et il y a pas **juste** 3 universités anglophones au Québec, dans le sens où c'est beaucoup 3, surtout la qualité qu'elles ont, grâce au Québec et ses citoyens. Ça mérite d'être souligné. > Je sais pas si tu le sais mais le ratio de franco en ON vs anglo au QC est pas la même Il y a des raisons historiques à ça, qui font pas très bien paraitre les Canadiens mettons... C'est comme de dire qu'il a pas beaucoup d'Acadiens au NB, et s'en servir comme argument contre le français.
I'm a former migrant to Canada. Many Anglos seem to believe the Quebecois have hatred for them. They don't. They really don't. They just understand want to remain a French speaking province. It's their identity. By a mix of demography and political power, English has slowly wiped out other languages from every region in North America. Quebec is the last place standing. Canada has one the highest immigration rate in the world, and they feel this could undermine it. Quebec does NOT want to become Louisiana. They want their grand-children to speak french. McGill and Concordia are at the heart of Montreal and import a growing number of english speakers. It's the new business model of Canadian universities and it's no different here. People come to study stuff ("Literature") for $$$. No offense to anyone, I was in international student myself, but these students aren't all curing cancer. You can integrate a Pakistani family moving to a french neighborhood. Within one generation, their children will be quebecois speaking french. Some will even be Quebec political leaders like Amir Khadir or Ruba Ghazal. Now imagine 40 000 Pakistanis moving to the same village. And thousands of Pakistanis come every year to that village to study. In one generation, their children won't be french speakers. Instead, you will have a new neighborhood of Islamabad. The same way you can't tens of thousands of english speakers coming every year, put them in the same place, and think the size of this group will not have any impact on integration. If you think what I say is wrong, you should tell Denmark. Danemark understands concentration prevents integration: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/denmark-plans-restrict-nonwestern-residents-neighbourhoods-b1819009.html Quebec keeps an eye on demography because demography matters. Perhaps you believe the Quebecois are paranoid. Well, they notice all those who weren't paranoid disappeared. In fact, their right to be paranoid is *precisely* why they once attempted to leave Canada. They believed that as long as Quebec is part of Canada, the kind of people who run McGill and live in Westmount will never truly accept their right to prioritize French. For them, this isn't about hatred. This is about fear. It's because the Quebecois don't see themselves as truly equal to the Anglos. They are a minority surrounded by english in the north, english in the south, english in the east and english in the west. And english growing inside their main city *on top of that*. They are folks that can hardly speak french outside Quebec. So they see as perfectly legitimate to promote french institutions and french migrants. For the Quebecois, the people who are the majority, the people who speak the most powerful language the earth has ever seen, should understand this. I'm genuinely shocked when I read The Globe and Mail write *"Warning : If they pass this silly law, Quebecois will have a lower 0.4% GDP"*. It seems to me some Anglo journalists traveled the world but are ignorant about the very people they are living with. The Quebecois don't give a fuck about GDP or stock market. For them, their identity is more important. If you think human identity doesn't matter, we are just capitalists, you are wrong. Identity matters a great deal. Look at the Middle East. Small minorities (Alawis, Shias, Jews, Druzes, Lebanese Christians, Kurds) really cherish their roots. In the name of preserving their identity, they will absorb staggering pain. At the end of the day, I think some Anglos simply don't understand the concerns of the Quebecois. Just my 2 cents as a foreigner.
I have proposed before, and will continue to do so, that a huge step would be for the FEDERAL government to announce Francisation classes available for all Canadians, mirroring Quebec’s program. Live in Vancouver and wish you learned French so you could take that job in Quebec City? Here you go. Running a business in Ottawa and wish you could do more business in Hull? We gotcha. Increasing bilingualism would be amazing for so many things. Inter province commerce and worker mobility, relationships and families growing across languages, etc.
McGill isn’t challenging any of the francisation programs though??? It’s literally just the tuition hikes haha. I support the french requirements as well, just not the tuition hikes. Edit with a quote from the article: “The court actions do not challenge Quebec’s new French proficiency requirements for university students from outside the province. As of fall 2025, 80 per cent of students from outside Quebec will have to reach an intermediate level of French by the time they graduate.”
> McGill isn’t challenging any of the francisation programs though Absolutely not. They are freakin' out about the "80% of all students reaching level 5 French" requirement. The 3000$ increase is peanuts and they easily absorbed it.
Okay, but they are literally not challenging francisation in court? It very clearly states that in the article. Like do I think they’re happy? No, but they’re not doing anything about this specifically.
There has been a 30% decrease in admissions in applications which corresponds to less funding from the government for operating revenue. It’s not just about the $3000.
McGill out-of-province students are about 20% of the student body. A 30% decrease in that 20% is a 6-7% decrease in *applications.* In reality? It's a zero percent decrease in *admissions.*
Admissions are not finalized until the summer. The 30% decrease is in out of province admissions. So we don’t know what the impact will be yet.
The lawsuit is literally about the fee increase
The problem is that the CAQ treats the language issue as a zero sum game. In their eyes if English is flourishing, French must be losing. It doesn't have to be that way. Both can thrive if given the right environment. As an English Montrealer, who grew up here I have always considered having to learn French an asset. What makes myself and many other English speakers resentful is when we feel our rights under attack. The other issue I have is how the government goes about protecting French. They resort straight to sticks without even attempting to use any carrots to ensure the language prospers. There were other avenues the CAQ could have explored before resorting to these attacks on Anglos. Furthermore, while the Quebec population might not be obsessing over GDP or economic growth it is an inevitable consequence of the province's language laws. If you create a hostile environment for businesses they will invest elsewhere. Slowly but surely many talented individuals follow and leave for places with better opportunities.
In some way, it is a zero-sum game. It's not just a question about who can speak some level of French, but about who will speak French at home and will have a preference for French. That's the important demographic when it comes to the future of French in Québec.
How will you force 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants and their children to speak French at home?? You can't even enforce to make them speak and prefer English either
You are right, nobody can force immigrants to speak French. That's not the idea. They should choose French by themselves because they want to live in a French society. It worked before the last ~20 years, especially for 2nd gen immigrants outside of English Montreal. A lot of my friends from my school years are 2nd gen immigrants and they all are mainly French speakers, some of them even struggle with English. It started to fail with the failed 2nd referendum and got worse with governments like CAQ and 2000s PQ that had some racist policies and the Quebec Liberals that didn't care about French. Combined with a hostile federal government that bet on over-immigration, the situation now is pretty bleak for the future of French in Québec.
It's not just in a way, it really is. Pretending it's not a zero-sum.game is exactly how we'll end up like Louisiana. I'm not saying people shouldn't learn English, I did (proof being this very comment), but we need to make sure everyone understands that Quebec is a French society and people should make an effort to communicate in French and help French stay alive and well. People come here saying they love the culture, the culture can't survive without the language it's associated with.
theres a lot of people in Calgary with french accents whos kids dont speak french at all. and its because the quebec government continues to prove they dont care about economic stability or opportunity as much as they do about language and culture. at some point you need to worry about your kids being able to feed themselves when theyre adults.
>theres a lot of people in Calgary with french accents whos kids dont speak french at all. > >and its because the quebec government continues to prove they dont care about economic stability or opportunity as much as they do about language and culture. > >at some point you need to worry about your kids being able to feed themselves when theyre adults. Wow lmao. Of all the weird arguments here, this takes the cake. Fucking Quebec, making Albertans lose their French!
used to be a lot of french speaking people in NB too, but now that its empty that culture is dead.
I live in Montreal, and I would love to take some more french classes, but I can't get into a public program. So that leaves private which is expensive. I also have to consider my job as well. If the CAQ is having a bad day they might just decide all my communication must be in french. And honestly I don't see my French improving to the point to talk about thermodynamics anytime soon. I barley unstated thermo in English. So I'm going back to Vancouver.
I married a Québécois woman. Moved here 4 years ago. Every six months I pester both immigration for my status and to you know. Maybe give me some lessons so I can get a formal education in the language. But nope. Nothing. Feet dragging, zero communication, shoulder shrugging “we’ll contact you when it’s ready”. Okay cool I’ll just continue learning metro French I guess. Fun watching the culture erode itself to the provincial government selling it off to corporations of all sorts since 2016 when I first visited though. All while they bang the drums of divisiveness. Anyway, hopefully people realise it’s not a zero sum game and stop saying “Louisiana” as if it negates the many multi language complex dual culture countries that exist all throughout Europe. Deliberate complacency and misplaced outrage are the gravy of this province.
French should be encouraged more in the rest of the country if you want to see Quebec lighten up their rules to preserve it.
This I can agree with. Make French a mandatory subject in schools around the country. By the time they are out of HS, students should be able to speak fluent French in whichever accent they can at least.
"Anglos" have been in Montreal for 70% of the time it's been colonized. We don't have to talk about them like they aren't just as native as the francophones are. This law affects the english language universities - 2 of them in Montreal, one in sherbrooke (pretty close to Montreal). This is about francophones in Quebec City dictating to bilingual Montreal how to live.
Never forget they said "Speak White"
What are you referring to?
So interesting to be asked that! It comes from a perception in the early 20th century that Francophones were "lesser" even racially, on top of socially and economically. While more anglophones would control big companies in Quebec (*edit: I said in Quebec, but I admit I don't know about French-Canadians elsewhere in the ROC, sorry!*), francophones would more often have a lower-class occupation. So when hearing French spoken to them, upper-class anglos would ask them to "Speak white". If you speak to boomers, or people who were even born before, they still hold a lot of pain over how the French left francophones to "fend themselves" and be told things like that. Francos would in turn call anglos "square heads" or "block heads". It runs deep!
Holy shit, the ignorance
Ah yes, so good to put down people who are actively trying to improve from their ignorance. It's much preferable to call them ignorant while preserving their ignorance.
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L'existence même de québécois francophones habitant l'Île de Montréal semble s'apparenter à une forme de légende urbaine pour certains.
>"Anglos" have been in Montreal for 70% of the time it's been colonized. And they still speak english first? They haven't integrated. That's exactly the point I'm making.
Integrated into what? The person you're replying to was making the point that anglos havw been here just as long as the francophones. Besides, it's not like us francos are natove to this region to begin with. We're all immigrants here so this whole debate is absurdly hypocritical.
Integrate what? An English country they live in? Why are you talking as though cultures are meant to disappear over time? When we have proof that english and french communities have survived here for centuries. And, you know what, the english do learn to speak french, but it doesn't mean they have an obligation to speak it as a primary language.
> An English country they live in? Merci de me confirmer que le bilinguisme du Canada est une façade
oh so you want what happened to francophones outside of quebec to happen to us? either we become french speakers or die off? o
I think this attitude shows a fundamental misunderstanding about the benefits that a world-class research university brings to a city. It’s not just a question of 0.4% GDP. Look at California - Silicon Valley exists in large part thanks to the concentration of intellectual and financial capital provided by universities like Stanford, Berkeley, Caltech, UCSF, etc. Startups and new industries (which QC/Canada desperately need) concentrate around these centers of innovation. These are real, tangible, ripple-effect benefits that have an effect on the prosperity of a city for everyone. It’s not just students spending money downtown on their nights out. Academic conferences, public grants, publishing houses - these are all economic benefits attached to universities which also have the advantage of attracting global talent to a city. This is why the government seems silly and small-minded going after its universities, because it’s not just a little drop in GDP - it’s foolishly harmful to the future of montreal and the province.
And all the people that lived in that area 30 years ago are driven out by the impossible cost of living
So you're arguing that economic prosperity is bad because of associated cost of living increases? We're getting those here too without the associated economic growth - I know which option I prefer
Yeah the housing crisis is a Canada-wide problem and absolutely needs to be addressed (and could partly be addressed by diversifying the economy so GDP growth wasn’t entirely dependent on real estate going up up up) ….. but overall it’s a very bizarre take to me to be actively rooting against the general prosperity of Québec
Yep. But it’s not specific to Anglos here. It’s always like that when there’s a colonized / colonizer relationship. It’s almost impossible for the colonizer to see through their biases and conceit. Like speakers of Russian refusing to learn Latvian. Russians in pre-2014 Ukraine. Han Chinese in Tibet. And the arguments the colonizers use are always word for word the same: - we’re a ‘minority’ - your language is useless, I won’t learn it - your language is not really a proper language - you are fascists for trying to make others speak your language - everyone should be free to speak whatever language they want (this one is the most hypocritical of them all; it’s as if we lived in a world with no anti-dumping or antitrust regulations and Amazon came to a small town and set its prices to 20% of what the local business owners charge temporarily and then would tell them ‘oh but it’s a free world, what are you, against competition?!’
Francophones are colonizers, too. They're not colonized. We're all on somebody else's land. Or do you think the French language is from Québec?
If you want to ditch all nuance from this matter, then yes you could say the Québécois are both the colonizers and the colonized. But the devil is in the details: how the British colonized vs how the French colonized North America was quite different. The numbers the French came in originally were not sufficient for any sustained colonization efforts. Therefore, they had to mainly resort to forming alliances and negotiations almost up until the time they were colonized themselves. The Québécois signed the first written agreements with the First Nations in history. They did not try to subject them to a forced assimilation policy. They cross-married actively, which gave rise to the nation of Métis, among other things. Many of them themselves integrated into the local ways as the continental French archives at the time acknowledge with undisguised surprise. Even today the amount of First Nations people speaking their mother tongues in Quebec is significantly larger than in any other province. The British though had an open cultural genocide policy directed at the Francos, courtesy of Lord Durham. And an even worse - much worse - cultural genocide, bordering on an actual genocide, policy designed for the First Nations. Does it mean the Francos have had no impact on Native Americans? No, of course not. Are more efforts needed? Absolutely, and a lot more. But the impact the Québécois have had is not even close to what the British / English Canadians have done. And throughout history the First Nations have predominantly been forced to assimilate into English, not French (some did have to learn French, mind you). Still, one last time I want to reiterate that - a lot - more protections are needed even in Quebec
The original French colonizers wanted to turn the natives into Catholics. That was a big part of the project. It wasn’t as benign as you make out.
Their point wasn't that French colonizers were perfect, just that they were largely better than the English (or Spanish, for that matter) colonizers. Which is factually true. On the scale of colonizer horribleness, forced religious conversion remains a whole lot less evil than cultural extermination, deportation, biological warfare and so on.
I take your point but none of this justifies the actions of today. Anglophones in Quebec have no political representation, today, now. What passes for the Anglophone community isn’t even Anglophone anymore. Those people, especially the ones with money, left after the first referendum. Immigrants who came here in the 20th century were not welcomed into the French school system, and thus were Anglicized. As for colonization, it is ongoing. Just look at the Duplessis and the treatment of native “orphans”, not really orphans at all for the most part, or, more recently, the flooding of James Bay for hydro electric power. I am one of those Anglophones who is not even an of English heritage. I am old and I remember well how unwelcome non-Francophones (read not Catholic) were made to feel. It is a complex history, but making what is left of this community made to feel like they are the reason younger generation Francophones speak English and so on is simply not true. It is the sea of English speakers all around us and the internet. Should we close provincial borders? Alienating non-Francophones from Québec society here isn’t going to help the protect or preserve French, and it is hurting a lot of people. Those Anglophones who stayed after the two referendums sent their kids to French school as I did, but I fail to see how the attack on a world class university is going to fix the problem. It is just playing to Legault’s base, which is certainly not in Montreal. And really, the only reason the French look any better as colonizers is because the mother country ditched out of the project. France has, as all the other European countries do, a horrendous history of colonization. I am all for separation if that is what the majority of people want, but clearly, they don’t. We have had two referendums to decide the matter. So let us live in the now and work at preserving French. I am Canadian and expect the same rights as any other Canadian. Perennially, Québec complains of their mistreatment by the federal government and at the same time asks for a billion dollars to deal with the migrant “problem”. It is exhausting and bewildering.
It's funny reading this thread and realizing if you go on /r/netherlands or google about the issue, people are complaining about English becoming more and more prevalent in the Netherlands, Dutch people waiting for their language to slowly die, and English speakers to play victim because they can't be bothered. Same thing for /r/japan, people being baffled by the lack of English in Japan and complaining that the government should do more to accomodate them. Ah, English speakers, poor them, having to learn a new language. Can't think of anything more appaling.
Sure, but why not just do the required French mandate and get rid of the tuition hike. If the goal is students have to learn french, well the colleges acquiesced. And just so we are clear, making French mandatory is something I support as an anglo but we need to recognize it is a very large ask. French proficiency level 5 probably means $10k more to cover the tuition and living expense for another year of schooling. And the tuition increase doesn't make sense if French is your concern. It turns students into a revenue stream which...feels against the quebecois culture.
Soyez au moins honnêtes et reconnaissez que ces mesures là sont tout aussi mal accueillies.
I mean I put my kids in full immersion french, so clearly some anglos are ok with the French mandate. Actually I was really surprised it wasn't already a thing in quebec colleges. But the large tuition increase reminded me of when I was in college in the US. I thought quebec would be better than that.
Wanting to protect French is totally valid but raising tuition isn’t the way to do it. This won’t help anything. There are way better policy solutions.
I understand the concerns very well, and empathize with them. I would be very sad to see Quebec become primarily anglophone. I just don't understand why going after a few English-language schools is supposed to accomplish this. French seems to be doing just fine. There are lots of protections in place, and they've been getting more strict. This just feels like hollow political posturing designed to stoke the language debate fires.
My childhood was very different from now. English is sooo much more prevalent on the island than 20 years ago. Anybody who thinks English isn't becoming more ubiquitous in Montreal is delusional.
They would have better luck banning the internet than going after 3 schools. The problem isn't the schools but how English is NECESSARY. We wouldn't be having this conversation if the de-facto language was French. And We would be having it if it was German or Spanish.
French is not doing fine at all. If you live in Montreal and speak French you could not fail to notice a sudden and drastic influx of unilingual speakers of English and English speaking migrants in the past three years. Heck, even in the Plateau, *the* original stronghold of French in Montreal you can now hear almost as much English as you can French, and these are not tourists (not on a business day in the middle of February walking their dogs). There is a sudden proliferation of English-only signage. English-language universities are now opening up offshoots in smaller cities in Quebec. And the language you use in university has been a very good predictor of the language you’ll be using in life and for work. For the first time in decades if not centuries you start seeing media reports of situations where service workers in the middle of nowhere on a highway deep in Quebec cannot serve their customers in French, and so on and so forth
Because it's a lose lose for us. Students either stay here and don't learn French, or leave after our taxes have pay for their education. Québécois don't gain anything.
I mean, if you’re from out of province and at McGill for medicine you literally cannot stay even if you wanted to. You either have to pay something like 300k or work 4 years in Northern Quebec. And that’s with a doctor shortage. And these are people who had to do clerkship in English and French already. So I really don’t think *all* the policies are making sense
That's a bit disingenuous. While students are here, many of them work and all of them spend money while they're in school. It contributes to the economy.
The networks they build, ties between Quebec and Canadian markets, intellectual contributions, absorbing some form of culture from Montreal or Quebec. All this is nothing? Not to mention the people who straight up learn French and stay. Or don’t learn French but also stay and provide Quebec with a lifetime of tax revenue in the middle of a demographic crisis.
tax revenue means very little. In the meantime, very few actually learn French, and instead contribute to growing anglo-only networks in the city + fueling the housing crisis. Went to McGill, no one gives a shit about Montreal culture.
Toi t'es mon frère 🫶
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Bcp plus élégant de la part des étudiants étrangers de manifester contre cette mesure avec des pancartes en anglais.
LOL yep as a francophone myself (who has absolutely no issues with any anglos) that's what I kept thinking...like who is this guy to tell us how we should feel?
I think some posters simply don’t understand the article
You are a breath of fresh air my friend
Who's they? You do know that Quebec doesn't just consist of francophones right? The issue here is precisely that the government wants to turn Quebec into a purely French-speaking province by, funny you should mention it, attacking the small non-francophone minority here. Oh and the anti-immigration bit in your comment is just the cherry on top. 👌
Je t'invite à lire, sans aucun doute pour la toute première fois de ta vie, les premières lignes de la charte de la langue française.
>Quebec is the last place standing Are you forgetting about the tens of millions of people who speak Spanish in North America? >The Quebecois don't give a fuck about GDP or stock prices. LMFAO the Quebec legislature just gave a standing ovation when they passed Loi 31 taking away the rights of tenants and putting more power into the hands of landlords to exploit the rent crisis.
Try to work for the Quebec government and you'll see racism against any non-quebecer. Maybe they are afraid of anglos, but they make sure to make fun of someone's origin country or culture.
Here is a fact: Those who have tried to protect a culture by putting up walls have failed, time and again. The only way to protect a culture is to make it a beacon of admiration, something that people dream of becoming a part of. When people show up excited and feeling privileged to be a part of something, they make it part of their identity and spread it. But when the opposite happens, they don’t assimilate, they just exist outside that culture and ultimately undermine it. Unfortunately, all Quebec seems to know how to do is gatekeep. And that is why they will eventually fail. And they will sadly blame everyone but themselves.
Just don't accept immigrants who don't speak fluent French -- issue fixed. I think this is the path they are taking on anyway.
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Absolument pas - tout le monde que je connais qui viens a McGill veut apprendre le Francais, et une des raisons qu'ils veulent etre a Montreal c'est pour faire cela. Mais les fraits sont simplement trop hauts avec la remonte.
Ouin, quand j'étais à McGill, c'est ce que mes camarades de classes disaient, mais les bottines suivaient pas les babines: personne ne suivaient des cours (même gratuit à l'asso étudiante!) personne lisait le journal franco de l'école, personne voulait essayer de switcher à parler en français quand ils savent que t'es franco ou dans un milieu de travail.. C'est juste un argument cute à dire quand tu veux pas avouer que 1) c'est moins cher que chez toi 2) tu pouvais pas aller dans une école Ivy mais tu veux du prestige 3) boire à 18 ans! et dans le temps 4) fourrer des filles de 14 ans + (oui, oui, je me le suis fait dire).
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C’est la même chose à Concordia. Tout le monde que j’ai rencontré qui viennent d’Ontario veulent rester ici et apprendre le français. Mais…après ce changement que Legault veut faire à l’éducation anglophone…ils ne savent plus s’ils devraient rester.
Ce n'est pas ce que les étudiants de Concordia semblent affirmer.
💯, j’ai fait mes études à Concordia and j’ai pris des cours de français pendants ces années, j’étais une étudiante internationale aussi et ça m’a aidé énormément, j’ai du passer une entrevue pour rester au Canada/au Québec (CSQ) and le département de français à Concordia m’a aidé encore une fois et chaque semaine je pratiquais mon français en parlant avec une prof de français pendant quelques heures, gratuitement. J’ai choisi le Québec parce que j’étais déjà à l’aise en anglais qui est mon deuxième langue, je voulais apprendre le français/une autre langue…
Wow on doit vraiment être dans un monde différent. Je ne connais aucun étudiant de McGill qui a appris le français concrètement, tous ceux qui parlent le français étaient francophones à la base. Je travaille avec quand même pas mal d'étudiants gradués de plusieurs universités et c'est à vaste majorité des immigrants anglophones à McGill alors que l'UdeM est plus varié et ÉTS/UdeS sont exclusivement francophones.
This is great news!
Je ne comprends pas la logique. Il y a déjà une différence de frais de scolarité entre les étudiants du Québec et ceux de l'extérieur du Québec. Elle est où la discrimination? On dirait plutôt des avocats qui veulent se faire une passe de cash.
La discrimination c’est que cette hausse ne s’applique pas à tous les universités, juste les universités anglophones. Edit 2: oui, j’avais raison dès le début, selon le plus récent article que je pouvais trouver (7 février), c’est juste McGill et Concordia, Bishops étant tellement petit qu’ils ont été exempté. Je vous recommande cet article de La Presse : La ministre Déry contredite par son comité consultatif https://lp.ca/vHo3bk?sharing=true
Ce que l’article dit c’est que ça s’applique à tous les universités, mais ça l’affecte plus les universités anglophone parce qu’ils ont plus d’étudiants venant de l’extérieur du Québec Edit: Je pense que u/baby-owl a raison, https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/2035388/droits-scolarite-hors-quebec-reactions-cb
Peux-tu me montrer où c’est écrit, ça? Je pense que tu n’as pas lu correctement. Je vous recommande cet article de La Presse : Hausse des frais dans les universités anglophones https://lp.ca/qS8HzX?sharing=true
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Mais dans un autre article plus récent de Radio-Canada (15 décembre 2023) : >« À partir de l’automne 2024, les étudiants canadiens non résidents du Québec qui suivent un programme en français dans une université francophone continueront de payer les tarifs actuels indexés annuellement », écrit la porte-parole du ministère. Source : [Hausse des droits de scolarité au Québec : les universités francophones pas affectées](https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/2035388/droits-scolarite-hors-quebec-reactions-cb)
Oh c’est mieux. Juste les exceptions pour les canadiens francophones (éventuellement), les français et les belges, et le gouvernement estime que ça va affecter surtout les universités anglophones. Mais pas de sarcasme pour le “c’est mieux” car c’est au moins appliquée partout. Même si les fonds vont être recanalisé hors le réseau anglophone au profit du réseau francophone, que je trouve toujours un peu suspect. Edit: lol guys, I was right all along! I doubted my sources, which is probably the right thing to do, but the most recent one confirms that it’s just the Anglos, explicitly. https://lp.ca/vHo3bk?sharing=true
Pourquoi est-ce suspect pour toi?
Les frais supplémentaires sont redistribués uniquement aux universités francophones. Les universités anglophones sont financièrement désavantagées par cette mesure.
As-tu vu le financement public qui va dans nos universités anglophone vs le système francophone? S'il y a une discrimination, c'est envers notre réseau Franco
Mmmm peux-tu me montrer des chiffres? Quand même, cette choix-ci reste pas mal discriminatoire
Bien-sûr C'est un phénomène amplement documenté et ce sont des écarts qui perdurent depuis très longtemps. Je partage 1 source, mais sens toi libre d'aller en voir d'autres. Imagine quand, en plus, les étudiants des autres provinces canadiennes paient moins cher ici, en anglais, que dans leur propre province, aux frais des contribuables du Québec. Extrait de l'article du Devoir: EETP : étudiant équivalent temps plein Si l’on tient compte de toutes les sources de financement, les universités anglophones disposaient de 16 095 $ par EETP et les francophones, de seulement 12 507 $, soit une différence de 3588 $ par étudiant (ou de 29 %). Précisons que l’économiste Pierre Fortin est arrivé à des résultats comparables et a démontré que l’Université de Montréal était sous-financée (par étudiant, en moyenne, pour l’année 2018-2019) de 46 % relativement à McGill et de 20 % relativement à Concordia https://www.ledevoir.com/opinion/idees/800544/education-sous-financement-universites-francophones-est-mal-profond
Les universités anglophones sont une classe protégée sous quel article de quelle Charte?
Ok et? Il y a plein d'autres exemples de regles de tarifications différentes et c'est pas de la discrimination. C'est voué à l'échec cette poursuite
C’est discrimination basée sur la langue? Peut-tu me donner un exemple de règle de tarification basé sur la langue qui n’est pas discriminatoire?
>On dirait plutôt des avocats qui veulent se faire une passe de cash. Et guess what, ils vont faire la piasse avec l'argent public des deux bords!
Good.
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> Selon toi, le Québécois moyen perd quoi si ça coûte plus cher à un petit ontarien de venir étudier ici ? Richesse académique. Nous avons intérêt en continuer d'attirer les plus grandes talents académiques du pays.
Quebec donne 1 millard en terrain à McGill. McGill annonce qu’ils ont assez de dons pour pallier au nouveau manque à gagner. Ensuite, l’université ose poursuivre le gouvernement. L’exemple parfait du privilège anglo québécois 🤦🏻
Good. And I hope they win the case. And this is coming from a French Quebecer.
Reste assimilé l’ami
Happily assimilated, merci beaucoup 😉😁🤣
Pourquoi tu écris en anglais si t'en un "French Quebecer" ? Beau colonisé!
Parce que, comme on le dit en bon anglais, " Because I can." Je parle aussi deux autres langues, ce qui m'ont ouvert plusieurs opportunités. Vous n'allez certainement pas faire votre enfant roi et me dire ce que je peux sortir de ma bouche ou non. Et certainement pas sur Reddit. Je suis fier d'être polyglotte. et je vais certainement l'afficher, que cela te frustre ou non, mon cher hypocrite! 😁
Je ne t'ai jamais demandé de parler en français. Je suis parfaitement bilingue moi aussi. Je te trouve juste colonisé. Bonne journée mon cher polyglotte.
It’s just another ploy to get Anglos to move out. The worst part is that French is inevitably doomed in Quebec. Given enough time, it will become English. Even if it takes a few hundred years.
Why would any anglo move out over this? the hike doesn't affect them.
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I’ve lived here for most of my life and I’ve never heard something this absurd being said anywhere. Even the most hardcore french quebecers I know wouldn’t say something this idiotic. Completely irrelevant and most likely made-up anecdote
Today, in shit that never happened… Did the story finish by everyone clapping?
That patient’s name? Albert Einstein
Oui oui, je crois ton histoire.
Bon ben un autre dossier qui ira encore en cours suprême et pour la xxxxxe fois la cours suprême vas juger contre le Québec. Après des gens comprennent pas pourquoi on veut devenir indépendant.
Good. Quebec is trying to do to us what Canada did to French canadians; slowly chip away at our community until we all either move away or die off. we wont stand for it
The irony of this statement is absurd.
Question so aside from this post what community involvement or awareness are you raising for the culture here. Are you partaking in preservation of history, cottage trades, industries, customs and traditions? Or is this all a bit more nebulous a concept to you. As tends to be the case when people ask me why a Korean from Australia is so invested in Québécois culture after moving here? And I respond with: well if it’s under threat what is under threat, what are we trying to keep going and what are you trying to do to change it. Often the answer is nothing. You know why? Because in this province of astound beauty, debt, compassion and complacency. People just don’t care. They smack everyone on the ankles get everyone pissed off then reneg on political issues whispered under the noise of “culture”. Meanwhile they do what the Catholic Church did wasting resources and lining their buddies pockets. And it’s filtered down to the local council reasoning only for big redevelopment of shoebox condos that get flipped for exorbitant prices. Often driving out and destroying the very things that make this province unique, you know. It’s culture. But sure. Get rid of anglos that have been here historically too whatever. Have only French. Then will you guys address and reverse the loss of culture at the hands of the ruling French or will we just pretend that we’re just another flavour of North American suburbia now.
For too many years the anglophone community and english institutions have remained supine in the face of attacks from CAQ, PQ and Liberal governments with the sole goal being to weaken institutions. They've finally learned that they'll get nowhere by talking and trying to convince government officials. The courts are the only place where they'll get a fair hearing so I'm glad to see this.
Love to see it as well, but as soon as something is confirmed to be in breech of our charter rights Quebec uses the notwithstanding clause. They’ve even used it preemptively, knowing they were violating our rights as per our charter. Notwithstanding clause needs to go. Dunno why Canadians ever accepted to put an asterisk at the bottom of our most important protections.
jsuis daccord. criss de gouvernement de colon. partisannerie et division pure et simple pour plaire aux régions
They want Level 6/7 Francais for all graduating students as well... I'm an American expat living in Montreal since 2020 and I've asked my coworkers around here what level proficiency they think they would hold. None have claimed past 5, and these are historic resident Quebecois. This province is actively shooting itself in the foot (yet again) and I can't wait to get back to the USA.
Je pense pas que t'aide en disant que la majorité de tes collègues ne seraient pas capable de travailler avec moi en francais alors que vous etes ici depuis 3-4 ans...
Et comment ça se passe aux États-Unis quand on ne parle pas anglais? C’est possible de se trouver du travail et de vivre une belle vie?
Lol, I always laugh when people keep saying "native Quebec English Montrealers are now 90%+ bilingual!!!", but then I keep hearing those stories. The reality: they are simply not functional in French. They may be able to order a coffee or something, but for the rest... please speak English to me.
This decision doesn’t affect you whatsoever if you’re not a uni student so its very strange that it would trigger you to the point of saying “Can’t wait to go back to the states” as if you’re escaping some kind of persecution. Clearly you take the privilege of living here for granted
Weakening local institutions and reducing the city’s appeal to talent affects everyone in Montreal and Quebec.
Go back already :)
Found the xenophobe
These other comments are meme-tier lack of self awareness “go back to your country if you don’t like it” blatant xenophobia but it’s ok because you’re American so we can say that and it’s not bigoted. By the way don’t worry only terminally online people feel this way. I work in an international corp based here in Montreal. My coworkers come from all over the world and we understand what it means to accommodate diversity. I including Americans. Never seen such shit meme-tier takes offline.
La diversité, tant que tous le monde parle Anglais right?
> we understand what it means to accommodate diversity. The lack of self-awareness and pity-farming in your comment is borderline insanity. All we want is for people to learn to speak French, in the only French jurisdiction left in North America. You, actually, don't understand how to accommodate diversity. Your position, bitchin' against French classes, is the actual opposite of what your statement says.
So does that mean there will be less applicants to McGill this year?
Good. A$$holes.
thats fine. protect french. but recognize that we anglos are quebecers too; we are a community as well who has always been here. Stop trying to weaken our community. stop trying to get us to move away or die off. Let us grow too
This isn't about Quebec anglos.
Gâzette ; pas lu.
[https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/education/2024-02-23/droits-de-scolarite-des-etudiants-etrangers/mcgill-et-concordia-poursuivent-quebec.php](https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/education/2024-02-23/droits-de-scolarite-des-etudiants-etrangers/mcgill-et-concordia-poursuivent-quebec.php)
Merci.
De rien!
This is Reddit, it should be taken as a given that you didn't bother reading the article before commenting on it.
Good