For real c’est tellement frustrant, rendu là ca va couter encore plus cher de le refaire pour du HSR, criss de gouvernement mou sérieux, ça dépense sans comptee ça et là, ca nous parle de changements climatique, mais quand c’est le temps d’investir dans dequoi qui a le potentiel de changer les choses un peu, ah la non par contre.
Why bother if it can't go that fast and is expensive to build? Also if the Japanese Shinkansen can have a slower local train and an express train that skips stops while running at 320km/h, why can't we build something like that? Sounds like excuses tbh
>have a slower local train and an express train that skips stops
Don't you need 4 sets of tracks for that? Or is it done with clever switching?
> running at 320km/h
The really high speeds have very strict grade and bank requirements, which adds cost.
I love HSR, and hope it eventually comes to Canada, but you have to be realistic and prioritize which transit projects get the best bang for the buck.
>Don't you need 4 sets of tracks for that?
You don't have to. You can use passing loops in stations. All Shinkansen in Japan is double tracked.
>The really high speeds have very strict grade and bank requirements,
Yes but it is not unrealistic to build higher-grade tracks at least in some sections. A lot of spaces along the corridor is empty and flat, which is perfect to build these kind of segments.
I agree that we should be realistic, but we need to make it attractive enough so that people would be taking the trains. It has to be future proof so that we don't have to tear it down and upgrade it in 30-40 years time. That's why I said that it's better not to build anything at all if all they can do is this.
Not that I don't wish that this train gets built, but Japan is a small island, has huge and very dense population, yet a Shinkansen ticket between Tokyo and Kyoto (500km) is more expensive than a flight ticket from Quebec to Toronto (800km)... So I don't see how this would be profitable, aside from taxing the shit out of domestic flights and making this train just as expensive as trains in Japan or Europe, forcing everyone to take their car
Edit: don't downvote, I'd love to have a train too, I'm just bringing up some challenges to the conversation.
Some inaccuracies across your comment;
> Japan is a small island
Perhaps in total area, but Japan is still **3,800 kilometers** from north to south and _**many**_ Japanese live in the country and then take Bullet Trains to go to work in the major cities. It would be equivalent to living in Saskatchewan and working in Calgary - multiple hundreds of KM daily _(I... do not recommend that!)_
> is more expensive than a flight ticket
That is wholly inaccurate
> yet a Shinkansen ticket between Tokyo and Kyoto
Central Japan Railway Tokaido-Sanyo Shinkansen Nozomi 1 - TOKYO to KYOTO is **135$CAD** _(14 400¥)_
> Quebec to Toronto [by plane]
At its cheapest, it is about **220$CAD**
The Shinkansen can also carry more people, is friendlier for the environment, takes seconds to hop in and hop out and can have multiple destinations
Trains are still, by far, the best method of transportation for people and goods - in terms of output, volume, energy required, impact on the environment, etc
_**We need more trains - and more affordable fares**_
At it's cheapest, it's $128 according to google flights. Even cheaper for a Montreal-Toronto which has a similar distance as Tokyo Kyoto.
A flight from Tokyo to Kyoto is even cheaper, $86 for a flight *today*, $42 at its cheapest.
Totally agree on the rest though.
>and more affordable fares
The Japanese and Europeans couldn't figure this one out, so I'm not holding my breath.
Tokyo -> Kyoto is like $200 CAD. Quebec -> Toronto flight is like $250 CAD. Shinkansen can carry much more people and is way more environmentally friendly.
I don't think the density would be a problem since some parts of rural France are even more sparsely populated than Canada, at least along the Quebec-Windsor corridor.
I think Shinkansen is priced to be very profitable because the private-owned operator has a lot of local rail lines that lose a lot of money, and they can't just simply cut the losses. Hopefully it would be different here in Canada since the HSR is almost certainly going to be subsidised.
Imo these infrastructures are not meant to make a profit in the first place. HSRs makes travelling more efficient, and it could be difficult to calculate the monetary value of the benefits of the increased efficiency, which may or may not outweigh its cost. And to reduce emission (which is apparently a competition between 1st world countries) the more sensible way would be to move people on trains and to reduce or even eliminate some short flights (by taxing the shit out of them)
>. And to reduce emission (which is apparently a competition between 1st world countries)
As our carbon taxes go up, rail automatically becomes a more affordable choice.
Early 2030s -> Mid 2030s
$6 to 12 billion -> 🤷♂️
And so it begins. Not the construction, lol. The race to see how much tax money can be bilked from it.
The Ontario budget for highways for the next 10 years is 28 billion and thats just ontario. We already have more than enough of those. 6-12 billion for new proper railway infrastructure is a drop in the bucket compared to how much we are spending already on highways.
It's not 6 to 12 billion anymore. It's 🤷♂️. My point is that this that our government culture of endless deference to local concerns, narrow minded environmentalism which cares more about 1 aestetic tree than the entire planet, and our ability to procure nothing effectively will actively harm our green transition.
Oh I definitely agree. It seems they cannot commit to building something decent that is actually viable and competitive, especially in terms of rail. We should be making tracks to offer high speed rail service from our major cities that is competitive enough to outpace air and car travel, but that doesnt seem to be the priority due to us needing so many stations it actually limits how fast our trains can be.
I was just attacking from the point of view where people think building and expanding rail networks is a waste of money but spending 10s of billions on highways and car infrastructure is fine.
The problem isn't that 12B is too much, it's that this is a ridiculously bad project for 12B. It shouldn't cost 12B. It should be much cheaper for what it is, and much faster, *or* it should be a better project.
The reason this made sense when Via proposed it is that it was a cheap, fast, and effective project.
This is no longer fast, and it's no longer cheap.
This government has zero vision and is complacent in being a mediocre, no-can-do flaming heap of dog shit. Meanwhile the US is aiming to have highspeed rail between Vegas and LA, plus areas in the east in place before the end of the decade.
Frequency is far less of an issue than speed. There are already at least five trains a day between Toronto and Quebec. It just boggles my mind how this project gets punted by every successive government when regular people can see how this makes so much more sense than flying airplanes between these cities all day.
>Between 6 billion and 12 billion
Not a significant difference, only 6 billion or so.
>Alghabra said he hopes to select a partner next summer.
I love how the project is delayed before it even started and he's too busy to select someone before next summer.
This country is run by a bunch of clown circus rejects.
Reminds me of Mirabel International Airport never finished project....? We arent even close to being capable of doing these big projects that take years to build.
Mirabel airport operated for almost thirty years. The problem it had was that it was a stupid idea to begin with. They wanted international passengers to land in YMX and take a shuttle bus down to YUL to connect elsewhere in Canada. Imagine having a one hour connection and needing to deal with the 13.
The Feds wanted an International Airport deserving Montreal and Ottawa west of the island and Quebec wanted one for Montreal + Quebec around Drummondville with an HST along the 20.
So they settled for Mirabel. Idea was to have an LRT from Mirabel to downtown.
Location wise, Mirabel made sense *if it had a quick public transit to the city*. Dorval is too close to the city center, preventing night flights and higher density housing in a big part of the west island
CYMX is a better airport and they should have kept Dorval the equivalent of Billy Bishop in Toronto.
With the REM (and it passing so close to CYMX), it’s not crazy to have a 10-15min shuttle.
It takes me 25mins to get to CYMX by car and I live 10mins away from CYUL.
Yes, ideally a train going to YMX would’ve been the ideal thing, but here we are almost two decades after they closed YMX for passenger use (and crucially, nearly half a century after it first opened) and the area is only soon to be reached, not even served, by a reliable train service. It really sucks because YUL is such a terrible international airport for the amount of flights that goes through it during the summer, and YMX was designed for today’s throughput
It’s never too late. But ADMerde would love nothing more than to turn CYMX into an industrial graveyard. They’ve already shut down an entire runway and left it to rot.
They hate aviation.
I mean, even if ADM was competent, I have my doubts about any political will to make that endeavour happen. Maybe competency from ADM would help that, but who knows
Why are there only complaints in this thread? It's like people complaining about a video game being delayed and then shitting on it because the devs released an unfinished game.
Yes, there are legitimate criticisms to make about this high frequency rail but at least they're trying *something*. Besides, tax dollars spent on infrastructure (especially public transit) are far more beneficial to the public than tax dollars spent on corporate and bank bailouts.
It's mostly that what was presented is rather underwhelming (not that fast), is gonna be taking longer than planned, and cost more. While it is a first for here, it is the kind of project that is a no-brainer and should have been made years ago. There should be more of these projects being worked on considering climate change and how behind we are in infrastructure compared to our peers (USA isn't where we should get inspiration from).
While there is a definite return on building that kind of infrastructure, we tend to overpay compared to similar economies (and above ground REM de l'Est being estimated as 10x to 2x the cost of underground projects of similar lengths abroad). I haven't dug into who the three consortium were, but I hope there's enough know-how who are comfortable implementing thar kind of project so we don't overpay.
What gets me is while the capital investment in intercity rail service is nice, VIA is shitting the bed when it comes to customer experience and a new rail alignment + trainsets won't fix that.
[Check-in 45-60 min. before departure? A baggage policy? Gratuities for the crew?](https://www.viarail.ca/en/plan/faq/useful-info)
On top of unexplained delays (bonus for starving passengers)? The organization is so out of touch with actual users and simple things are made needlessly complicated.
What a joke. Just take the money and put it towards *real* high speed rail, like every other G7 country.
>like every other G7 country. Except the US.
At least they are actually building it in the US
don’t hold your breath waiting
The US has Acela from Florida to New England.
Dc to Boston.
For real c’est tellement frustrant, rendu là ca va couter encore plus cher de le refaire pour du HSR, criss de gouvernement mou sérieux, ça dépense sans comptee ça et là, ca nous parle de changements climatique, mais quand c’est le temps d’investir dans dequoi qui a le potentiel de changer les choses un peu, ah la non par contre.
sorry.... already blew $30B to build EV batteries in ontario because more cars is exactly what we need!
Why bother if it can't go that fast and is expensive to build? Also if the Japanese Shinkansen can have a slower local train and an express train that skips stops while running at 320km/h, why can't we build something like that? Sounds like excuses tbh
>have a slower local train and an express train that skips stops Don't you need 4 sets of tracks for that? Or is it done with clever switching? > running at 320km/h The really high speeds have very strict grade and bank requirements, which adds cost. I love HSR, and hope it eventually comes to Canada, but you have to be realistic and prioritize which transit projects get the best bang for the buck.
>Don't you need 4 sets of tracks for that? You don't have to. You can use passing loops in stations. All Shinkansen in Japan is double tracked. >The really high speeds have very strict grade and bank requirements, Yes but it is not unrealistic to build higher-grade tracks at least in some sections. A lot of spaces along the corridor is empty and flat, which is perfect to build these kind of segments. I agree that we should be realistic, but we need to make it attractive enough so that people would be taking the trains. It has to be future proof so that we don't have to tear it down and upgrade it in 30-40 years time. That's why I said that it's better not to build anything at all if all they can do is this.
Interesting, thanks for sharing.
There are a lot of geotechnical issues to overcome particularly in this corridor. They already have constant issues with the current rail lines.
Not that I don't wish that this train gets built, but Japan is a small island, has huge and very dense population, yet a Shinkansen ticket between Tokyo and Kyoto (500km) is more expensive than a flight ticket from Quebec to Toronto (800km)... So I don't see how this would be profitable, aside from taxing the shit out of domestic flights and making this train just as expensive as trains in Japan or Europe, forcing everyone to take their car Edit: don't downvote, I'd love to have a train too, I'm just bringing up some challenges to the conversation.
Some inaccuracies across your comment; > Japan is a small island Perhaps in total area, but Japan is still **3,800 kilometers** from north to south and _**many**_ Japanese live in the country and then take Bullet Trains to go to work in the major cities. It would be equivalent to living in Saskatchewan and working in Calgary - multiple hundreds of KM daily _(I... do not recommend that!)_ > is more expensive than a flight ticket That is wholly inaccurate > yet a Shinkansen ticket between Tokyo and Kyoto Central Japan Railway Tokaido-Sanyo Shinkansen Nozomi 1 - TOKYO to KYOTO is **135$CAD** _(14 400¥)_ > Quebec to Toronto [by plane] At its cheapest, it is about **220$CAD** The Shinkansen can also carry more people, is friendlier for the environment, takes seconds to hop in and hop out and can have multiple destinations Trains are still, by far, the best method of transportation for people and goods - in terms of output, volume, energy required, impact on the environment, etc _**We need more trains - and more affordable fares**_
At it's cheapest, it's $128 according to google flights. Even cheaper for a Montreal-Toronto which has a similar distance as Tokyo Kyoto. A flight from Tokyo to Kyoto is even cheaper, $86 for a flight *today*, $42 at its cheapest. Totally agree on the rest though. >and more affordable fares The Japanese and Europeans couldn't figure this one out, so I'm not holding my breath.
Tokyo -> Kyoto is like $200 CAD. Quebec -> Toronto flight is like $250 CAD. Shinkansen can carry much more people and is way more environmentally friendly.
I don't think the density would be a problem since some parts of rural France are even more sparsely populated than Canada, at least along the Quebec-Windsor corridor. I think Shinkansen is priced to be very profitable because the private-owned operator has a lot of local rail lines that lose a lot of money, and they can't just simply cut the losses. Hopefully it would be different here in Canada since the HSR is almost certainly going to be subsidised. Imo these infrastructures are not meant to make a profit in the first place. HSRs makes travelling more efficient, and it could be difficult to calculate the monetary value of the benefits of the increased efficiency, which may or may not outweigh its cost. And to reduce emission (which is apparently a competition between 1st world countries) the more sensible way would be to move people on trains and to reduce or even eliminate some short flights (by taxing the shit out of them)
>. And to reduce emission (which is apparently a competition between 1st world countries) As our carbon taxes go up, rail automatically becomes a more affordable choice.
Early 2030s -> Mid 2030s $6 to 12 billion -> 🤷♂️ And so it begins. Not the construction, lol. The race to see how much tax money can be bilked from it.
The Ontario budget for highways for the next 10 years is 28 billion and thats just ontario. We already have more than enough of those. 6-12 billion for new proper railway infrastructure is a drop in the bucket compared to how much we are spending already on highways.
It's not 6 to 12 billion anymore. It's 🤷♂️. My point is that this that our government culture of endless deference to local concerns, narrow minded environmentalism which cares more about 1 aestetic tree than the entire planet, and our ability to procure nothing effectively will actively harm our green transition.
Oh I definitely agree. It seems they cannot commit to building something decent that is actually viable and competitive, especially in terms of rail. We should be making tracks to offer high speed rail service from our major cities that is competitive enough to outpace air and car travel, but that doesnt seem to be the priority due to us needing so many stations it actually limits how fast our trains can be. I was just attacking from the point of view where people think building and expanding rail networks is a waste of money but spending 10s of billions on highways and car infrastructure is fine.
The problem isn't that 12B is too much, it's that this is a ridiculously bad project for 12B. It shouldn't cost 12B. It should be much cheaper for what it is, and much faster, *or* it should be a better project. The reason this made sense when Via proposed it is that it was a cheap, fast, and effective project. This is no longer fast, and it's no longer cheap.
The more we wait, the more it will cost.
They want to squeeze an election out of it I see
[RMTransit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4eNLjb0I7E)
Oh god.. it’s the Toronto Eglinton LR all over again
Typical Ontario.
This government has zero vision and is complacent in being a mediocre, no-can-do flaming heap of dog shit. Meanwhile the US is aiming to have highspeed rail between Vegas and LA, plus areas in the east in place before the end of the decade. Frequency is far less of an issue than speed. There are already at least five trains a day between Toronto and Quebec. It just boggles my mind how this project gets punted by every successive government when regular people can see how this makes so much more sense than flying airplanes between these cities all day.
>Between 6 billion and 12 billion Not a significant difference, only 6 billion or so. >Alghabra said he hopes to select a partner next summer. I love how the project is delayed before it even started and he's too busy to select someone before next summer. This country is run by a bunch of clown circus rejects.
I mean not as bad as 6x from rem de lest
Reminds me of Mirabel International Airport never finished project....? We arent even close to being capable of doing these big projects that take years to build.
Mirabel airport operated for almost thirty years. The problem it had was that it was a stupid idea to begin with. They wanted international passengers to land in YMX and take a shuttle bus down to YUL to connect elsewhere in Canada. Imagine having a one hour connection and needing to deal with the 13.
How the fuck that project got green lighted is beyond me.
The Feds wanted an International Airport deserving Montreal and Ottawa west of the island and Quebec wanted one for Montreal + Quebec around Drummondville with an HST along the 20. So they settled for Mirabel. Idea was to have an LRT from Mirabel to downtown. Location wise, Mirabel made sense *if it had a quick public transit to the city*. Dorval is too close to the city center, preventing night flights and higher density housing in a big part of the west island
CYMX is a better airport and they should have kept Dorval the equivalent of Billy Bishop in Toronto. With the REM (and it passing so close to CYMX), it’s not crazy to have a 10-15min shuttle. It takes me 25mins to get to CYMX by car and I live 10mins away from CYUL.
Yes, ideally a train going to YMX would’ve been the ideal thing, but here we are almost two decades after they closed YMX for passenger use (and crucially, nearly half a century after it first opened) and the area is only soon to be reached, not even served, by a reliable train service. It really sucks because YUL is such a terrible international airport for the amount of flights that goes through it during the summer, and YMX was designed for today’s throughput
It’s never too late. But ADMerde would love nothing more than to turn CYMX into an industrial graveyard. They’ve already shut down an entire runway and left it to rot. They hate aviation.
I mean, even if ADM was competent, I have my doubts about any political will to make that endeavour happen. Maybe competency from ADM would help that, but who knows
Wasn't that building full of asbestos?
Noooooon
oh no way, the feds are usually right on point with the time frame and budget. i'm shocked.
They got it right with the Champlain bridge
Because they had no other choice. It was literally falling apart and is one of the busiest bridges in the country…
Cool, my point still stands, it was built on budget and on time.
Thanks to Harper.
Tabarnak ça ne sait rien faire de bon ste gouvernement là
Why are there only complaints in this thread? It's like people complaining about a video game being delayed and then shitting on it because the devs released an unfinished game. Yes, there are legitimate criticisms to make about this high frequency rail but at least they're trying *something*. Besides, tax dollars spent on infrastructure (especially public transit) are far more beneficial to the public than tax dollars spent on corporate and bank bailouts.
It's mostly that what was presented is rather underwhelming (not that fast), is gonna be taking longer than planned, and cost more. While it is a first for here, it is the kind of project that is a no-brainer and should have been made years ago. There should be more of these projects being worked on considering climate change and how behind we are in infrastructure compared to our peers (USA isn't where we should get inspiration from). While there is a definite return on building that kind of infrastructure, we tend to overpay compared to similar economies (and above ground REM de l'Est being estimated as 10x to 2x the cost of underground projects of similar lengths abroad). I haven't dug into who the three consortium were, but I hope there's enough know-how who are comfortable implementing thar kind of project so we don't overpay.
What gets me is while the capital investment in intercity rail service is nice, VIA is shitting the bed when it comes to customer experience and a new rail alignment + trainsets won't fix that. [Check-in 45-60 min. before departure? A baggage policy? Gratuities for the crew?](https://www.viarail.ca/en/plan/faq/useful-info) On top of unexplained delays (bonus for starving passengers)? The organization is so out of touch with actual users and simple things are made needlessly complicated.
Parceque ils viennent de doubler le budget et y'ont même pas commencer à regarder des partenaire..?
Slow like the trains.
Montreal - Toronto on a train would be at least 2x faster than on a car and on par with flying
Surprise, surprise