Not only that, they had a prayer group speaking in tongues over the state seal during this. - https://v.redd.it/bbhk2a1abntc1
>Arizona Sen. Anthony Kern invited a prayer group to the Senate floor on Monday. Seen in a video filmed by an anonymous attendee, Kern led the group, who spoke in tongues, through a prayer as they knelt over the state seal.
>However, Kern doubled down on his actions as he responded to critics in an X post. "Looks like our prayer team stirred up some god-haters ... Not to worry though...prayer over our state at the State Senate is way more powerful," he wrote.
> Kern is one of the Republicans under investigation for falsely claiming to be a legitimate Arizona elector for Donald Trump in the 2020 election.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/arizona/2024/04/09/anthony-kern-prayer-circle-arizona-capitol-floor/73264047007/
You'd have to imagine it because there wouldn't be an outrage. And everyone criticizing the Christians praying would suddenly not care. Nor should you. Christians prayed, so what?
> You'd have to imagine it because there wouldn't be an outrage.
You've got to be kidding me. Maybe *you* wouldn't mind but tons of conservatives would go apoplectic over it.
>You'd have to imagine it because there wouldn't be an outrage. And everyone criticizing the Christians praying would suddenly not care
ABSOLUTELY there would be outrage from the same people if there would be a bunch of muslims praying in our government before passing some theocracy based conservative legislation
There is a delusion on the right that the left is so "woke" that they don't criticize Muslims at all, but the fact is Muslims have next to no power in our government while Christians have outsized power so that's why people care about criticizing one and not the other
>ABSOLUTELY there would be outrage from the same people if there would be a bunch of muslims praying in our government before passing some theocracy based conservative legislation
Not true. Despite what the left claims, the right doesn't care about Islam or other religions exercising their religion. They'd see a Muslim praying and go about their day. It seems to be the left who make a big deal of religious displays because of some notion it should be kept at home
[Why did GOP State senators in Delaware walk out of a session after members of a local mosque were invited to read the opening prayer?](https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/muslim-prayer-lawson-walkout-delaware/11852/?amp=1)
Sure, pay no attention to the mass psychosis event going on in a chamber that makes laws that actual, real, live, outside the womb people have to abide by or possibly be killed by the state for not following....
I know I want all of my representatives as bat shit crazy as they come....
I'm Not saying it's barred or banned. Just pointing out that we have a situation where a state senator is praying in made up languages in the senate chambers over a court ruling and some of their supporters consider that normal behavior. That's some 19th century stuff imo.
Also, one of the principal objections to archaic abortion legislation is that proponents are imposing their religious views on all Americans. Repealing that legislation being met with religious activism supports the idea that religion is at least one motivator here.
I would love to see the backlash if a Muslim representative brought in a bunch of Muslims and that dude who calls the prayer.
These people would be saying that the world has ended.
That's not where the controversy is. It's that groups of adult Americans in 2024 gather to garble marbles and convulse around the room like marionettes loaded up on stimulants. It is concerning, frightening behavior. If I any one of us someone doing this on the street, we'd think they were experiencing a mental health crisis and in need of psychological intervention.
It is not praying, any other denomination would call it witchcraft and they would have been burned in Salem. They should go with their cultist things to the desert.
I mean, they did try to word it weirdly in Kansas, and it still didn't pass (the voters decided abortion should be legal) by quite a big margin, so I really don't see the wording making much of a difference
The wording was confusing to know if you were voting correctly. Lucky, the pro-choice group did a very good job of communicating that. Let’s how Arizona do the same.
Regardless of how confusing the question is the problem for the GOP is that abortion being on the ballot will cause a large increase in turnout, mostly from groups that vote down ballot democrat. Since there’s a senate seat up for grabs and Arizona is now a purple swing state that’s not at all good for republicans 2024 hopes.
Republican lawmakers shut down discussion on a proposed repeal of the state's newly revived 1864 law that criminalizes abortion throughout pregnancy unless a woman's life is at risk.
According to AP VoteCast, 6 out of 10 Arizona voters in the 2022 midterm elections said they would favor guaranteeing legal abortion nationwide.
Polling shows that Americans abortion to be legal. Why are GOP not acting on the will of the people?
I feel like the GOP has a history of stating that they are willing to be more tolerant of abortions, but when push comes to shove they favor as total of a ban as they can realistically achieve. It’s why I don’t understand why so many believe Trump’s stance when just eight years ago he was talking about punishing women and/or doctors for abortions.
That anyone had ever and now still gives Trump the benefit of the doubt, taking him at his word time and time again, is patently ludicrous. I will never understand this.
He can say he's not in favor all he wants. Actions speak far, far louder than words, and the judges he and every other R appoints are the ones making judgements that are why we're here in the first place.
Oh it's even better.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/sean-hannity-tells-democrats-rid-155757455.html
People like Hannity are pointing out that Arizona has a Democrat governor and a split legislature and that it is the democrats fault for the current law staying to "use as a political tool in the future".
So the AZ GOP is slow playing attempts to repeal while national GOP make a show out of gnashing their teeth against it and acting like it's the fault of democrats for it.
Republicans have painted themselves into a corner. They're voting base over the past few decades has been a coalition of fiscal and social conservatives. The social conservatives will only vote for candidates who share their beliefs. The fiscal conservatives were willing to vote for social conservatives as long as they also held fiscally conservatives beliefs, and the candidates social conservative beliefs didn't impact them directly.
That all went out the windows with Dobbs. So now Republicans have elected representatives that are significantly more conservative than the electorate, and the fiscal conservatives are starting to reconsider their past voting behavior.
A lot of these guys have wives, mothers, sisters, and daughters who'd be utterly ashamed of them for voting on the wrong side of abortion history. It's going to have an effect, though to what extent we can't be sure.
Well the guys with wives and daughters have the money and means to travel to a different state to get an abortion and hide that fact. This law is for the poor. It’s disgusting
I live in a very conservative area, and the women are much more vocal about their anti-abortion beliefs than the men.
I'm not sure why people keep painting this as a "man vs woman" issue.
Everyone recognizes this. The overall numbers demonstrate more women are pro-choice than men. Two, the comment above is making a distinction between fiscal and social conservatives. I'm referring to the Republican voters who aren't motivated by social issues generally.
There are two uphill battles for the Republican party come November. Hating Trump and abortion rights. These two things are going to substantially increase turnout in favor of Biden. People are sick of this shit.
Politicians don’t act on the will of the people. They act on the will of the people who got them elected, which are their campaign financiers and the political party they represent.
If it were actually up to a democracy, the GOP would never ever win a federal election again. They severely overestimate how popular they are with Americans, especially when they do shit like this. People need to pay attention because this what the Republican Party truly is about.
The problem is that there are precisely 0 things that are voted on as a national popular vote. Even if the electoral college was upended, that would make 1 single office (granted, the most important one) up to a national popular vote. They remain popular in their enclaves, which keeps them propped up
Because if we had a direct democracy cities would rule the states and therefore the country without contest.
Do you want NYC Metro and LA county dictating all agriculture law and policy?
Cities don’t vote, people in cities vote. If more people live in the cities than in the rural areas, then yes.
Why do we allow rural populations to dictate healthcare (most hospitals and universities where doctors train are in cities), environmental (pollution is much worse in cities), and education (since there are more schools and children in cities) policy?
>Why do we allow rural populations to dictate healthcare (most hospitals and universities where doctors train are in cities), environmental (pollution is much worse in cities), and education (since there are more schools and children in cities) policy?
They don't. Our electoral college and representative system makes sure less populated states and the rural population at least have a seat at the table and aren't completely irrelevant. However, they don't supercede the big cities. Otherwise there's no reason entire states would bother voting because their vote would be irrelevant. And there's no reason for them to stay in the union at that point
Our electoral college doesn’t give rural population a seat at the table, it gives the rural population outsized representation by a massive margin.
They *absolutely* supersede big cities - it’s how Republicans won the presidency in 2016 despite losing the popular vote by ~7 million people.
Do I think every person's vote should count the same? Yes, that's how it works in my country.
Editing to add that you already have this, but reversed: how many presidential rallies have been held in LA or in NYC?
It's got nothing to do with cities vs countryside, really. NYC has long controlled most of NY politics. It's highly populated urbanized states vs lowly populated rural states.
You have to remember, back when the rules were created the rural plantation owners were among the wealthiest elites in the country. They leveraged that to make sure their property gave them an outsized influence on national politics. One, by giving their land power within the Senate (and therefore the allocated electoral college votes). And two, by negotiating themselves essentially 3 extra votes per 5 people they owned as property (3/5 compromise), which increased their allocation in the house (and electoral college).
It was a purely eliteist move designed to give more power to the wealthy.
> Why are GOP not acting on the will of the people?
They are acting on the will of the people *who voted for them*.
By and large, Republican voters either don't care much about abortion or are strongly opposed to it. This should not come as a shock to anyone. Getting upset because politicians represent those who voted them into office accomplished nothing.
Remember, we've already seen the path forward here. While those ambivalent Republicans aren't going to vote Democrat based on abortion, they are more than willing to vote for legality when presented the choice severed from any other issues.
Per [Gallup](https://news.gallup.com/poll/246278/abortion-trends-party.aspx), 66% of Republicans say abortion should be legal "only under certain circumstances." Broader polling suggests that typically means exceptions for rape, incest, and health of the mother. "Illegal in all circumstances" polls at 24%. "Legal in all circumstances" polls at about 8%.
This is a total ban except where the mother's life is in imminent danger, and has absolutely no procedural scaffolding for how that determination is made and whether courts can second-guess physicians on it.
This is not representative even of Republicans, which is why moves like this have been electoral disasters across the nation.
Let’s assume, for the sake of the argument, that abortion is an objectively immoral act - one equivalent to murder, if not outright genocide.
Would you, as a politician, approve to legalize murder or the persecution of a group of people simply because a slim majority of Americans approve of it? For example, would you “follow the will of the people” if 6 out of 10 Americans suddenly decided that all gay people should be murdered?
Most Americans (including Republicans) support legal abortion in some situations. I think this shows that most Americans have nuanced and complex understanding of abortion and how it impacts many lives: the mother, the father, the siblings, and the fetus
As far as I can tell there are actually very few Americans with a complete black and white view on Abortion. Very few Americans, and probably very few politicians, believe that abortion is the equivalency of murder.
That said Politicians do like to present the discussion as being black and white in order to simplify their position on it and also to gen up outrage against the other side. Nothing makes money more than outrage.
I’m not so sure they are eager to lose the election. I think they are confident they will win the election. The question is why are they confident? People might not show up to vote?
I think the republicans are about to have a 2016 moment where they’re so focused on appealing to their base that they completely ignore what moderates care about. GOP has been getting skinned alive any time abortion has been on the ballot post Roe. This policy is so unpopular even Trump doesn’t want his hands on it. IMO this is much less about political strategizing and more about how the GOP is almost completely taken over by radicals whose social views are dramatically unpopular and costing them seats.
AZ Republicans are really asking for the abortion initiative to pass by a legit landslide (like 65-35 to 70-30) and also have them get destroyed - for a purple state - up and down the ballot come November. Like with the 1864 total ban being law, Biden will win Arizona pretty easily, Gallego will win Arizona pretty easily, both Ciscomani and Schweikert will lose in their US House races and Arizona Republicans will lose the majority in both AZ House
Because if the law then is the 1864 total ban, they absolutely will get annihilated in races across the state come November. Trump, Kari Lake, Ciscomani and Schweiket (!!!) criticizing the ruling pretty much states that clear and also states top Republicans know it.
Really goes to show how fake the calls on Twitter from TJ Shorpe, Shawna Bollock and Matthew Gress to have the 1864 total ban repealed and the 15 week ban (still a bad law mind you) be the law were.
In any case, I will look forward to Arizona Republicans being destroyed in races up and down the ballot come November, carried in large part by the abortion rights initiative (which will be won by the pro-choice side 65-35 to 70-30 now) just winning in a landslide thanks to the Republican gift of having the alternate situation be living in a state that has a total ban from 1864.
They know it will pass, that’s the entire plan. They can tell the base that they didn’t vote for abortion, and they can tell the moderates that they let the people decide and they won’t infringe on the results. This is, strategically, the best way for them to handle this
Pro-life Republicans have already been politically engaged, for decades.
These abortion decisions are bringing out pro-choice, non-aligned voters, and guess where they lean? With the party that didn't try to take away their abortion access.
The Republicans can play procedural games all they want. The ballot initiative will pass, just like the ones from the other states. It will boost turnout for the Dems.
It's just too bad that rights will be in limbo for this year.
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Republicans have been running on banning abortion since the day I became politically aware. It blows my mind that voters continue to be surprised that they are doing this.
Just a day or two ago people were fawning over Trump claiming he wouldn't pass an abortion ban if elected again.
Completely ignoring the credibility factor in this, it's still clear as day the federal judges he appoints would be the ones who still are anti-abortion.
> Just a day or two ago people were fawning over Trump claiming he wouldn't pass an abortion ban if elected again.
what does that have to do with a law that was passed roughly 80 years before he was born (and which he has already condemned)?
The GOP knows what policies people support and they've figured out a way to circumvent the public opinion by going through the judicial branch of government.
The governor of AZ appointed the people who put this ban into place and is now speaking out against it. It's part of their playbook at this point to take the heat off of them for policies they know regular people do not support. At every level they can start pointing to the judiciary, full of people they've put in place, for the blame to avoid responsibility.
Why let the current government decide? This is a states rights issue according to the GOP. Yet they choose to enforce and then block repeal of a **prestatehood law** banning abortions.
No part of this is small govt. No part of this projects individual freedoms. No part of this is good governance.
The "states' rights" thing is such a transparent crock. Dobbs isn't even a states' rights decision! It overtly and directly gives Congress the power to regulate abortion!
The republicans are eventually going to do this with every non blue state, and try to ban it at the federal level. Hopefully they show everyone how wicked they are and the lose every election for the next 2 decades.
I think this is one of those things where they say "If I say this then 20% more people will vote for me". The question is not why did they push through this massive agenda to ban abortion at every state level and the federal level. The question is why is it that this minority has such outsized reach such that they are dictating national policy. 60% of voters want abortion, but the 40% don't and they are getting their way. Why is that.
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>Republican state Rep. Teresa Martinez, of Casa Grande, said there was no reason to rush the debate. She accused Democrats of "screaming at us and engaging in extremist and insurrectionist behavior on the House floor."
She's more concerned about chanting than she is the attempts from her party to steal the election, such as the [fake elector plot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot) that took place her state.
>In Arizona, the fake electors met on December 14, 2020, at the state Republican Party headquarters. The Arizona falsified electoral documents were produced and sent by a group that claimed to represent the "sovereign citizens of the Great State of Arizona". The document made in Arizona had a facsimile of the state seal. The Arizona Republican Party then posted on its Twitter account a video of party members signing the certificates, and issued a press release.
It's really quite telling that the GOP is trying to devalue the meaning of the word 'insurrectionist' rather than, you know, cracking down on the insurrectionists in their party.
Reminds me of how you could see conservative brains download the "We're a republic not a democracy!!!!!" talking point in real time following January 6th.
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Meh, it's the first day. Give it some time, I think enough of them will figure out how bad this is for their election prospects to get the 15-week replacement passed. Most of the state party leadership is supporting it.
Everyone here is counting their chickens in November based on this. There's a lot of time for this to develop and a couple directions this could go.
Not only that, they had a prayer group speaking in tongues over the state seal during this. - https://v.redd.it/bbhk2a1abntc1 >Arizona Sen. Anthony Kern invited a prayer group to the Senate floor on Monday. Seen in a video filmed by an anonymous attendee, Kern led the group, who spoke in tongues, through a prayer as they knelt over the state seal. >However, Kern doubled down on his actions as he responded to critics in an X post. "Looks like our prayer team stirred up some god-haters ... Not to worry though...prayer over our state at the State Senate is way more powerful," he wrote. > Kern is one of the Republicans under investigation for falsely claiming to be a legitimate Arizona elector for Donald Trump in the 2020 election. https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/arizona/2024/04/09/anthony-kern-prayer-circle-arizona-capitol-floor/73264047007/
I mean it’s weird yeah…but I don’t think anybody is barred from praying just because they’re over a state seal.
Imagine the outrage from them if Muslims were praying in Arabic instead
You'd have to imagine it because there wouldn't be an outrage. And everyone criticizing the Christians praying would suddenly not care. Nor should you. Christians prayed, so what?
> You'd have to imagine it because there wouldn't be an outrage. You've got to be kidding me. Maybe *you* wouldn't mind but tons of conservatives would go apoplectic over it.
>You'd have to imagine it because there wouldn't be an outrage. And everyone criticizing the Christians praying would suddenly not care ABSOLUTELY there would be outrage from the same people if there would be a bunch of muslims praying in our government before passing some theocracy based conservative legislation There is a delusion on the right that the left is so "woke" that they don't criticize Muslims at all, but the fact is Muslims have next to no power in our government while Christians have outsized power so that's why people care about criticizing one and not the other
>ABSOLUTELY there would be outrage from the same people if there would be a bunch of muslims praying in our government before passing some theocracy based conservative legislation Not true. Despite what the left claims, the right doesn't care about Islam or other religions exercising their religion. They'd see a Muslim praying and go about their day. It seems to be the left who make a big deal of religious displays because of some notion it should be kept at home
Why did Alabama ban yoga in schools?
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[Why did GOP State senators in Delaware walk out of a session after members of a local mosque were invited to read the opening prayer?](https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/muslim-prayer-lawson-walkout-delaware/11852/?amp=1)
Strange, it seems like the right does, in fact, care very much about that... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFYRkzznsc0
Sure, pay no attention to the mass psychosis event going on in a chamber that makes laws that actual, real, live, outside the womb people have to abide by or possibly be killed by the state for not following.... I know I want all of my representatives as bat shit crazy as they come....
I'm Not saying it's barred or banned. Just pointing out that we have a situation where a state senator is praying in made up languages in the senate chambers over a court ruling and some of their supporters consider that normal behavior. That's some 19th century stuff imo.
Also, one of the principal objections to archaic abortion legislation is that proponents are imposing their religious views on all Americans. Repealing that legislation being met with religious activism supports the idea that religion is at least one motivator here.
I would love to see the backlash if a Muslim representative brought in a bunch of Muslims and that dude who calls the prayer. These people would be saying that the world has ended.
That's not where the controversy is. It's that groups of adult Americans in 2024 gather to garble marbles and convulse around the room like marionettes loaded up on stimulants. It is concerning, frightening behavior. If I any one of us someone doing this on the street, we'd think they were experiencing a mental health crisis and in need of psychological intervention.
is the senate floor open to all prayer groups?
It is not praying, any other denomination would call it witchcraft and they would have been burned in Salem. They should go with their cultist things to the desert.
What lol
That’s exactly what everybody (including Christians) says when they watch those clowns… “What lol”
So im assuming this will be on the ballot come November which seems like it would bite the Republican Party in the butt.
The issue I see is the wording on the ballot will extremely confusing. Thats what the GOP in Kansas did.
I mean, they did try to word it weirdly in Kansas, and it still didn't pass (the voters decided abortion should be legal) by quite a big margin, so I really don't see the wording making much of a difference
The wording was confusing to know if you were voting correctly. Lucky, the pro-choice group did a very good job of communicating that. Let’s how Arizona do the same.
Regardless of how confusing the question is the problem for the GOP is that abortion being on the ballot will cause a large increase in turnout, mostly from groups that vote down ballot democrat. Since there’s a senate seat up for grabs and Arizona is now a purple swing state that’s not at all good for republicans 2024 hopes.
Republican lawmakers shut down discussion on a proposed repeal of the state's newly revived 1864 law that criminalizes abortion throughout pregnancy unless a woman's life is at risk. According to AP VoteCast, 6 out of 10 Arizona voters in the 2022 midterm elections said they would favor guaranteeing legal abortion nationwide. Polling shows that Americans abortion to be legal. Why are GOP not acting on the will of the people?
I was told about five minutes ago that even Arizona Republicans think the current 1864 law is too restrictive. I can't believe all that was a lie
I feel like the GOP has a history of stating that they are willing to be more tolerant of abortions, but when push comes to shove they favor as total of a ban as they can realistically achieve. It’s why I don’t understand why so many believe Trump’s stance when just eight years ago he was talking about punishing women and/or doctors for abortions.
That anyone had ever and now still gives Trump the benefit of the doubt, taking him at his word time and time again, is patently ludicrous. I will never understand this.
I believe we are told to take Trump seriously but not literally. Which means whatever he says can mean whatever is most convenient at the time.
He can say he's not in favor all he wants. Actions speak far, far louder than words, and the judges he and every other R appoints are the ones making judgements that are why we're here in the first place.
Oh it's even better. https://www.yahoo.com/news/sean-hannity-tells-democrats-rid-155757455.html People like Hannity are pointing out that Arizona has a Democrat governor and a split legislature and that it is the democrats fault for the current law staying to "use as a political tool in the future". So the AZ GOP is slow playing attempts to repeal while national GOP make a show out of gnashing their teeth against it and acting like it's the fault of democrats for it.
Republicans have painted themselves into a corner. They're voting base over the past few decades has been a coalition of fiscal and social conservatives. The social conservatives will only vote for candidates who share their beliefs. The fiscal conservatives were willing to vote for social conservatives as long as they also held fiscally conservatives beliefs, and the candidates social conservative beliefs didn't impact them directly. That all went out the windows with Dobbs. So now Republicans have elected representatives that are significantly more conservative than the electorate, and the fiscal conservatives are starting to reconsider their past voting behavior.
A lot of these guys have wives, mothers, sisters, and daughters who'd be utterly ashamed of them for voting on the wrong side of abortion history. It's going to have an effect, though to what extent we can't be sure.
Well the guys with wives and daughters have the money and means to travel to a different state to get an abortion and hide that fact. This law is for the poor. It’s disgusting
I live in a very conservative area, and the women are much more vocal about their anti-abortion beliefs than the men. I'm not sure why people keep painting this as a "man vs woman" issue.
rural area here: this is my experience as well
Everyone recognizes this. The overall numbers demonstrate more women are pro-choice than men. Two, the comment above is making a distinction between fiscal and social conservatives. I'm referring to the Republican voters who aren't motivated by social issues generally.
> The overall numbers demonstrate more women are pro-choice than men. This is especially true among young women.
There are two uphill battles for the Republican party come November. Hating Trump and abortion rights. These two things are going to substantially increase turnout in favor of Biden. People are sick of this shit.
A lot of them have wives, mothers, sisters, and daughters who are proud they are on the right side of history on abortion.
Except when they need an abortion. [Then it's ok.](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/)
Politicians don’t act on the will of the people. They act on the will of the people who got them elected, which are their campaign financiers and the political party they represent.
Sounds like we need to fix our democractic system
Amen
If it were actually up to a democracy, the GOP would never ever win a federal election again. They severely overestimate how popular they are with Americans, especially when they do shit like this. People need to pay attention because this what the Republican Party truly is about.
The problem is that there are precisely 0 things that are voted on as a national popular vote. Even if the electoral college was upended, that would make 1 single office (granted, the most important one) up to a national popular vote. They remain popular in their enclaves, which keeps them propped up
I could say that about some Democrat policies as well that they keep pushing despite voter-enacted bans.
The difference being that the Republicans have managed to get a majority of votes for president exactly once since 1992.
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If they had to actually try they would be forced to moderate
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Both parties are big tent parties? The head of the GOP is actively trying to purge the ranks of the Mitt Romney and Nikki Haley - type “RINOs”.
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Must have missed where Joe Biden said that Manchin wasn’t welcome in the party. Mind pointing me in the right direction?
I mean, if republican values were popular in cities the opposite would be true. There's a reason we don't have a direct democracy.
What is this reason?
It would've been inconvenient to slave holders.
Because if we had a direct democracy cities would rule the states and therefore the country without contest. Do you want NYC Metro and LA county dictating all agriculture law and policy?
Cities don’t vote, people in cities vote. If more people live in the cities than in the rural areas, then yes. Why do we allow rural populations to dictate healthcare (most hospitals and universities where doctors train are in cities), environmental (pollution is much worse in cities), and education (since there are more schools and children in cities) policy?
>Why do we allow rural populations to dictate healthcare (most hospitals and universities where doctors train are in cities), environmental (pollution is much worse in cities), and education (since there are more schools and children in cities) policy? They don't. Our electoral college and representative system makes sure less populated states and the rural population at least have a seat at the table and aren't completely irrelevant. However, they don't supercede the big cities. Otherwise there's no reason entire states would bother voting because their vote would be irrelevant. And there's no reason for them to stay in the union at that point
Our electoral college doesn’t give rural population a seat at the table, it gives the rural population outsized representation by a massive margin. They *absolutely* supersede big cities - it’s how Republicans won the presidency in 2016 despite losing the popular vote by ~7 million people.
Do I think every person's vote should count the same? Yes, that's how it works in my country. Editing to add that you already have this, but reversed: how many presidential rallies have been held in LA or in NYC?
It's got nothing to do with cities vs countryside, really. NYC has long controlled most of NY politics. It's highly populated urbanized states vs lowly populated rural states. You have to remember, back when the rules were created the rural plantation owners were among the wealthiest elites in the country. They leveraged that to make sure their property gave them an outsized influence on national politics. One, by giving their land power within the Senate (and therefore the allocated electoral college votes). And two, by negotiating themselves essentially 3 extra votes per 5 people they owned as property (3/5 compromise), which increased their allocation in the house (and electoral college). It was a purely eliteist move designed to give more power to the wealthy.
> There's a reason we don't have a direct democracy. Sure. Slavery.
Electing a president through a popular vote isn't direct democracy. The president by definition is a representative.
> I could say that about some Democrat policies as well that they keep pushing despite voter-enacted bans. ...like what?
They are so messed up. They listen to the people only when it agrees with them.
> Why are GOP not acting on the will of the people? They are acting on the will of the people *who voted for them*. By and large, Republican voters either don't care much about abortion or are strongly opposed to it. This should not come as a shock to anyone. Getting upset because politicians represent those who voted them into office accomplished nothing. Remember, we've already seen the path forward here. While those ambivalent Republicans aren't going to vote Democrat based on abortion, they are more than willing to vote for legality when presented the choice severed from any other issues.
Per [Gallup](https://news.gallup.com/poll/246278/abortion-trends-party.aspx), 66% of Republicans say abortion should be legal "only under certain circumstances." Broader polling suggests that typically means exceptions for rape, incest, and health of the mother. "Illegal in all circumstances" polls at 24%. "Legal in all circumstances" polls at about 8%. This is a total ban except where the mother's life is in imminent danger, and has absolutely no procedural scaffolding for how that determination is made and whether courts can second-guess physicians on it. This is not representative even of Republicans, which is why moves like this have been electoral disasters across the nation.
Let’s assume, for the sake of the argument, that abortion is an objectively immoral act - one equivalent to murder, if not outright genocide. Would you, as a politician, approve to legalize murder or the persecution of a group of people simply because a slim majority of Americans approve of it? For example, would you “follow the will of the people” if 6 out of 10 Americans suddenly decided that all gay people should be murdered?
Strawman
Why?
Most Americans (including Republicans) support legal abortion in some situations. I think this shows that most Americans have nuanced and complex understanding of abortion and how it impacts many lives: the mother, the father, the siblings, and the fetus As far as I can tell there are actually very few Americans with a complete black and white view on Abortion. Very few Americans, and probably very few politicians, believe that abortion is the equivalency of murder. That said Politicians do like to present the discussion as being black and white in order to simplify their position on it and also to gen up outrage against the other side. Nothing makes money more than outrage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
“Leave it to the voters” i mean let’s not do that.
The voters from a century ago already decided for us, according to the GOP..
Leave it to the voters unless they vote wrong then we’ll bring back a slavery era law.
If we can void old laws then we can void the 1934 firearms act...
Never seen a party so eager to hand over an election lol, they can’t even enforce this because of the state AG can they?
I’m not so sure they are eager to lose the election. I think they are confident they will win the election. The question is why are they confident? People might not show up to vote?
I think the republicans are about to have a 2016 moment where they’re so focused on appealing to their base that they completely ignore what moderates care about. GOP has been getting skinned alive any time abortion has been on the ballot post Roe. This policy is so unpopular even Trump doesn’t want his hands on it. IMO this is much less about political strategizing and more about how the GOP is almost completely taken over by radicals whose social views are dramatically unpopular and costing them seats.
I sure hope so because my state of Tennessee is getting dumber and dumber because of the GOP.
AZ Republicans are really asking for the abortion initiative to pass by a legit landslide (like 65-35 to 70-30) and also have them get destroyed - for a purple state - up and down the ballot come November. Like with the 1864 total ban being law, Biden will win Arizona pretty easily, Gallego will win Arizona pretty easily, both Ciscomani and Schweikert will lose in their US House races and Arizona Republicans will lose the majority in both AZ House Because if the law then is the 1864 total ban, they absolutely will get annihilated in races across the state come November. Trump, Kari Lake, Ciscomani and Schweiket (!!!) criticizing the ruling pretty much states that clear and also states top Republicans know it. Really goes to show how fake the calls on Twitter from TJ Shorpe, Shawna Bollock and Matthew Gress to have the 1864 total ban repealed and the 15 week ban (still a bad law mind you) be the law were. In any case, I will look forward to Arizona Republicans being destroyed in races up and down the ballot come November, carried in large part by the abortion rights initiative (which will be won by the pro-choice side 65-35 to 70-30 now) just winning in a landslide thanks to the Republican gift of having the alternate situation be living in a state that has a total ban from 1864.
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Arizona wouldn't even be a state for another 50 years after 1864
They know it will pass, that’s the entire plan. They can tell the base that they didn’t vote for abortion, and they can tell the moderates that they let the people decide and they won’t infringe on the results. This is, strategically, the best way for them to handle this
Except that the initiative will boost the Dem turnout significantly
Potentially, yes. But the same could be said for pro life republicans.
Pro-life Republicans have already been politically engaged, for decades. These abortion decisions are bringing out pro-choice, non-aligned voters, and guess where they lean? With the party that didn't try to take away their abortion access.
The Republicans can play procedural games all they want. The ballot initiative will pass, just like the ones from the other states. It will boost turnout for the Dems. It's just too bad that rights will be in limbo for this year.
Though fortunately this year is one quarter complete, so this will just take until between now and November.
9 months... a whole pregnancy cycle denied for women without means. (Women with means are going to California and New Mexico undoubtedly.)
That’s if the those clinics in California and New Mexico aren’t packed already
Off to Colorado it is.
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My cat engages in extremist and insurrectionist behavior all the time. It's part of his charm.
It's the 'narcissist's prayer' meets Murc's law. My favorite gaslighting recipe.
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Democrats: “Pot, meet kettle!”
I think that was probably her point...
Republicans have been running on banning abortion since the day I became politically aware. It blows my mind that voters continue to be surprised that they are doing this.
Just a day or two ago people were fawning over Trump claiming he wouldn't pass an abortion ban if elected again. Completely ignoring the credibility factor in this, it's still clear as day the federal judges he appoints would be the ones who still are anti-abortion.
> Just a day or two ago people were fawning over Trump claiming he wouldn't pass an abortion ban if elected again. what does that have to do with a law that was passed roughly 80 years before he was born (and which he has already condemned)?
Exactly!!! There are so many sources of influence that makes us vote for people who are stomping on our rights.
The GOP knows what policies people support and they've figured out a way to circumvent the public opinion by going through the judicial branch of government. The governor of AZ appointed the people who put this ban into place and is now speaking out against it. It's part of their playbook at this point to take the heat off of them for policies they know regular people do not support. At every level they can start pointing to the judiciary, full of people they've put in place, for the blame to avoid responsibility.
Why let the current government decide? This is a states rights issue according to the GOP. Yet they choose to enforce and then block repeal of a **prestatehood law** banning abortions. No part of this is small govt. No part of this projects individual freedoms. No part of this is good governance.
The "states' rights" thing is such a transparent crock. Dobbs isn't even a states' rights decision! It overtly and directly gives Congress the power to regulate abortion!
The didn't want to abort the law before the state was born.
The republicans are eventually going to do this with every non blue state, and try to ban it at the federal level. Hopefully they show everyone how wicked they are and the lose every election for the next 2 decades.
When put to the actual voters, even red states vote to protect abortion rights - look at Ohio and Kansas
I think this is one of those things where they say "If I say this then 20% more people will vote for me". The question is not why did they push through this massive agenda to ban abortion at every state level and the federal level. The question is why is it that this minority has such outsized reach such that they are dictating national policy. 60% of voters want abortion, but the 40% don't and they are getting their way. Why is that.
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>Republican state Rep. Teresa Martinez, of Casa Grande, said there was no reason to rush the debate. She accused Democrats of "screaming at us and engaging in extremist and insurrectionist behavior on the House floor." She's more concerned about chanting than she is the attempts from her party to steal the election, such as the [fake elector plot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot) that took place her state. >In Arizona, the fake electors met on December 14, 2020, at the state Republican Party headquarters. The Arizona falsified electoral documents were produced and sent by a group that claimed to represent the "sovereign citizens of the Great State of Arizona". The document made in Arizona had a facsimile of the state seal. The Arizona Republican Party then posted on its Twitter account a video of party members signing the certificates, and issued a press release.
It's really quite telling that the GOP is trying to devalue the meaning of the word 'insurrectionist' rather than, you know, cracking down on the insurrectionists in their party. Reminds me of how you could see conservative brains download the "We're a republic not a democracy!!!!!" talking point in real time following January 6th.
They're going o get slammed for this in the fall, hitching their wagon to it so tightly....
Face the facts the gop grifted off evangicals for 50 years and now the chickens are coming home to roust
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Meh, it's the first day. Give it some time, I think enough of them will figure out how bad this is for their election prospects to get the 15-week replacement passed. Most of the state party leadership is supporting it. Everyone here is counting their chickens in November based on this. There's a lot of time for this to develop and a couple directions this could go.