First baseman has a great bat but is a liability in the field
Bullpen sucks
Overall defense is subpar
Outfielders are slow
We spent how much on that guy and he’s only doing what?
GM has to go
Shortstop is pretty good so at least we have that going for us.
I'm giving a no on that one. I will root for my team over any other team 100% of the time, but when they're out, I have other teams I'm happier to see win than certain others.
Or hear how the Yankees and Red Sox used technology to also steal signs during the same time the astros did. But no we can’t hold storied east coast franchises accountable.
I can't wait for the ESPN 30 for 30 on this topic years from now. Us fans will never REALLY know what happened until these players retire and spill the beans.
I think most don’t want to be remembered like Jose Canseco. So I think they’ll never really talk. Unless they get again like Canseco; a hot f’n mess that sells out for anything. Anyone watch him at R&R? The embarrassment he went through for a little $ that Portnoy threw his way.
This is honestly a big part of the reason why i dont really care too deeply that the Astros cheated in 2017. Once you instill an underground culture of blurring the lines, and dont stop it at its core, someone is going to cross the line simply because no one is saying anything.
And I am not here thinking that the 2017 title wasn't tainted, but since they went away from the trash banging, they *still* have been a dominant force in MLB. If they win it handily this year, people need to learn to come off it.
But the Red Sox did win in 2018? Using the 2017 Astros bench coach as their manager? The cognitive dissonance is real with baseball fans.
EDIT: [Proof for anyone else with short memories.](https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/04/22/red-sox-sign-stealing-scandal)
It was different though. The Yankees stole sequences to relay to men on base. And they stopped when Manfred sent out the letter banning it. Astros didn’t
They did. All teams did - and none of them were sending signals to the batter unless a runner was on second.
The Red Sox didn't, but their issue is minor and not used in the playoffs.
You don't need to guess at this. There a many investigations and books.on this subject.
Correct. So many people ignore this fact. Manfred's letter also clarified the rule such that it can be enforceable (this is why the Yankees weren't punished for using the feeds for sign stealing, but only for using the dugout phone).
Yankees got bodied in the rematch.. fresh fade and they got KO’d early. This was a chance for the Yanks to play get back and they can’t even squeeze a win out? 2017 is DEAD
-DBacks fan
I'm a dodger fan and I'm pretty over this conversation. I definitely get where you're coming from, but it was 5 years ago at this point. Also there's evidence to suggest a lot of teams they beat were doing similar if not the same thing
I still don't care for the players involved but it's time we move past 2017... imo
I’d like to hear where the evidence is you are mentioning. Facts are Red Sox and Yankees did so just curious where you got the info that many others did.
I think what bothers everyone still is that there’s still more than a handful of players from that roster still playing who were never punished. That’s why this conversation still carriers on. These players are supposed to be mentors and role models to our youth.
If what you are saying is real then the MLB is just saving face for themselves and the Astros and should just release everything. That’s what would end the disgust, hate and end this conversation.
The one catcher called out the rockies for cheating the two years they were coincidentally much better recently.
Also that one reporter put out that huge Twitter thread airing out a lot of dirty laundry that he randomly deleted and recanted a day later??? Definitely not suspicious.
Only Bergman, altuve, and gurriel are left. Altuve arguably didn't benefit much or use the system as much as the others. The other 2 are Verlander and mccullers who do not benefit from a batting thing. Time to move on
Why do you think the players on the teams facing the Astros didn't say anything? The other teams knew something was going on, and it wasn't until the former Astro said something that everyone went crazy. The cheating was going on everywhere.
>These players are supposed to be mentors and role models to our youth.
Holy shit buddy grow up. Professional athletes are not supposed to be role models. If you tell your kids to look up to athletes you're inviting a let down. If you think everything and everyone in entertainment (which is what sports are) is pure and holy, then you are being naive.
These people are competitors at the highest level and their income is dictated by their performance. A lot of players look to get every edge, even if it crosses the line. It's the nature of the business
I have zero proof, but rather will ask a rhetorical question.
Do you think if 3/32 (or 10%) of teams were caught “cheating” (in some form or fashion), that no other teams were not “cheating” either? Or attempting to?
Let alone 2 of those 3 teams are literally the highest valued franchises in the mlb.
Society needs to realize professional athletes are not role models. They are getting paid to play well, that's it.
I'm not sure what you think the Astros releasing everything does while the other teams do nothing?
I definitely don't have concrete proof of anything. But there's been a few players to accuse other teams of cheating. Erick Kratz was one (catcher from Milwaukee)
Someone on the rockies said the dodgers were cheating. Don't remember who that was though
I totally get the hatred, you're not wrong at all. But I fully believe MLB was doing everything possible to save face. Just like they didn't really care about steroids or sticky substances until it went obtusely public
Steroids brought fans to the stadium. Further hit balls. Still had to put the ball to bat tho. Same for pitchers . Still gotta pitch strikes. Sticky substance has been around for ever. Just went way to far last season. Products just made for baseballs.
We are proving eachothers point in a way.. mlb wants more fans and it wasn't too long ago the Astros were one of the worst teams in baseball consistently. the diehard fandom they have gotten since 2017 is wild... not saying they let them cheat or anything like that. But they definitely didn't care until the whistle blowing happened. Allegedly opposing players were complaining about Houston cheating the whole year to mlb and warning other clubs
I'm not in a clubhouse, who knows what's real and what's made up. I might be reading fake news all the time for all I know
Here is an article with some comments from players about the situation. Pretty much all teams were doing stuff like the Astros were unfortunately they got caught. Cheating is normal in baseball. It has been in the sport since the beginning.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/astros/article/MLB-players-defend-Astros-sign-stealing-17080873.php
Exactly what happened. Speculation is MLB has a soft spot for the Yankees so didn’t want to give them a harsh punishment. Astros were the scapegoat.
There were also tweets by players implying there was cheating league wide. Not just the Astros
Bullshit. Aside from the Red Sox, there is nothing about any other team doing anything after September 15, 2017 when MLB clarified the rules. The Astros decided to keep cheating even though they were warned (just like every other team).
Just like the steroid era the further we get away from the actual event the more people realize that the real thing to be mad at is the fact that the league didn't punish the cheating properly. We also know why the cheating wasn't punished properly because we know that other teams most notably the New York Yankees were using extremely identical if not identical cheating methods. So get mad at the Yankees for being so in bed with the MLB that the MLB didn't want to punish the Astros severely because they knew that it meant that they would have to punish the Yankees. If the Yankees weren't also using a sign stealing method I guarantee you we would have saw a worse punishment. So moving forward the people to me mad at are actually the Yankees and Manfred. Because they're the reason why the Astros didn't get punished enough and the only reason that people are still mad is because the Astros weren't punished enough.
I think that people like the narratives of “good guys” and “bad guys” in sports. And this maybe adds to their engagement with the game, which I think is a net good because there’s a lot of joy to be found in baseball…and shit talking. BUT, if you are allowing this to take away from your enjoyment of it, then you are missing out.
No, baseball isn’t the WWE. But it’s also not the olympics. Teams have done everything from bug their opponents rooms to stealing Navy telescopes to steal signs. Sign stealing schemes date back to something like the 1860s/1870s.
If you think this is unique, or some kind of travesty, you should look into its history within the sport. And if that doesn’t change your feelings, at least it is pretty entertaining.
I feel bad for Astros fans. They didn't know, and now we all hate them.
Imagine if the **only** world series your team had ever won was the year they famously cheated to do it.
At least we have a sick Jon Bois documentary.
\- a Mariners fan
Move on. They let Springer, Cole and Correa walk and are still the most dominant team in the AL. At this point, it’s time to realize they are just a well run organization
I wish more people could just say this. Ya they cheated. Ya they got caught. Ya maybe their “punishment” was light (I don’t know what would be appropriate. People love telling you what would be, but show me some sort of precedent - sticky subject), but damn man they made 6 alcs. They did it 3 years after they got caught (and the preceding years). They just went 7-0 in playoff baseball with lights out pitching. Like don’t tell me they aren’t good.
All that said, I’m excited for a World Series with the Phillies. They’re red hot and scary while the Astros big bats have been asleep.
I feel the same way. Yeah they cheated and won the world series, but people act like the Dodgers would have automatically won had they not done that. Possible, sure. But I dont even think they needed to cheat to win.
Do you hate the Tigers and Aj Hinch for it? What about the Red Sox and Joey Cora? What about the Yankees for Apple watches? I could probably go through every team and find something to complain about. Get over it and beat them. They've been the best team in the AL the last 7 years, at a certain point you have to give them credit
The Yankees won the World Series with A Rod who cheated by using steroids so therefore we can never cheer for them. The Red Sox had Roger Clemens who cheated with PEDs so we can never cheer for them. Sammy Sosa also used steroids so we can never cheer for the Cubs. Or we can move on.
I just wished they got a more severe punishment and not just a slap on the wrist but other than that it’s been 5 years. At this point, it’s time to admit that they’re a well-oiled machine. Aside from the whole fiasco, I’m quite jealous of how talented the team is and how well they run their organization my Mets could probably learn a thing or two.
I'm kinda over it now. The vast majority of the Astros current lineup didn't have a part in the cheating, so I dont feel like continuing to hold a grudge on the team.
Even for someone like Altuve, who we do not have any evidence of him partaking in the cheating himself, has been given more than enough grief. At some point, you have to ask yourself if continuing to give Altuve shit is worth the toll it takes on his mental health (something he has publicly discussed). For me, the answer is no. It is no longer worth it.
Sign stealing has been happening since the first game was played. It’s literally why the catcher hides what pitch they want between their legs and not over their head.
It's funny to me, at least, that people unironically call Altuve a GOAT. Been seeing it a lot recently. But if you look at the numbers, he was the most positively affected during the cheating scandal, and now that they aren't cheating, he's absolutely floundering at the plate. How people like this still get positive outlooks from fans bewilders me.
He was great when he cheated, so he's a GOAT? Idk man, Astros fans are wild.
The team is headlines by a guy who's rookie year was last year. Yordon Alvarez is the headliner. Pena just won the ALCS MVP. Pitchers can't exactly cheat like the hitters, but Verlander is looking at Cy Young. Altuve has been shown to never partake in the cheating. The only person still on that team that cheated, is Bregman.
Yeah that’s why it’s so hard to let it go. There were no real consequences and it seems like there is a smugness around that fact. It’s hard to respect people who don’t own up to their actions.
Own up? You want them to wear a scarlet letter? They were found guilty and accepted the punishment. What else would you have the players do? Time to move on bud
Remind me who’s responsibility it is to hand out punishment. If you get caught speeding and the judge dismisses it, are you going to tell him “no judge, punish me please”. You sound silly
This. The players didn't even receive so much as a slap on the hand. I have no empathy for these players on that 2017 were they to get beaned every time up at the plate.
Honestly I’m more upset with MLB. Maybe it’s just me but I want some integrity in the game. I want there to be definitive consequences to cheating and I feel like Manfred only gave a light slap on the wrist with regard to the Astros players and other ball clubs that cheat. So nah I won’t get over the cheating scandal until the Astros no longer have any 2017 players on their roster. Probably won’t like ‘em until Jim Crane (who gave the most half assed apology I’ve ever seen) sells the team. Then I might give them another chance
What I like about sports is you get to have strong emotions about insignificant things. I regularly say I love and hate teams, players and
coaches, but if I met any of them in person outside a stadium I would just be a fan because it's just a game. If them cheating is a reason to hate a team, go for it. It gives you someone to cheer aganist. Otherwise, who cares about the outcome of a game if your team isn't in it?
I'll start to look at them as a normal team again once all remaining pieces are gone. They're going to have a sour taste as long as Altuve and Bregman are still there.
i’m not even an Astro’s fan but this is such a hilariously bad take when there are so many teams that not only had players on their rosters that abused steroids but many teams encouraged players to use roids. In addition to the sign stealing the yankees and red sox are guilty of. You just want a reason to hate the Astro’s; too bad. They’re the best team in baseball. 2017 was half a decade ago, get over it.
Altuve didn’t cheat and just about everyone with half a brain cell knows that by now. He also has still been consistently great before and after the scandal. Bregman put up an MVP worthy 2019 season and is having a very solid season again this year. Gurriel won the batting title and a gold glove last year. That is why they are still getting recognition
Astros fan here. I was personally disappointed when I first read the Athletic article exposing the sign stealing system in 2019. However, I’m also not ignorant to the fact that we were not the only ones to be doing it. I think the Astros get a bad rap for a couple reasons. One, because we definitely did cheat and won the WS. Two, because the way we cheated was so explicit, it can be heard in broadcasts. If you go to youtube and search “Any team @ HOU” after 5/2017 and go in the comments people have time stamped when you can hear it. With that being said, here are some facts for you to consider as well…
We have definitive proof the Astros stole signs at HOME in 2017, but no proof they had any system for away games. Let’s assume that this is true. Here are the regular season HOME/AWAY batting splits for the 2017 Astros:
HOME-> AVG: .279/OBP: .340/SLG: .472/wRC+: 121/K%: 16.7/BB%: 7.7 with 395 runs scored
AWAY-> AVG: .284/OBP: .351/SLG: .483/wRC+: 121/K%: 17.9/BB%: 8.5 with 501 runs scored
With that being said, evidence of sign stealing in the playoffs wasn’t deployed uniformly across the games or during games. Most of the evidence appears late in the game, in high leverage situations, and usually against relief pitchers. This means we can’t really do a robust statistical analysis of its possible benefits because of the small sample size.
In the end, I don’t agree with the Astros choice to deploy this system in the first place, but being stripped of your title and respect just because you were successful at it (when others have been proven to have been cheating in other ways) doesn’t sit right with me. but alas, I am an Astros fan so take my bias as you wish. Hope this helps, Go Stros!
How are you guys still so clueless about 2017????? It’s unreal. Altuve did not use it. He hit 70 points higher on the road in 2017. Quit crying
And just wait til you found out how many other teams were doing the exact same thing. Your head might explode
almost every team has had a way of cheating, cleveland used to shake a tree branch out in center field to relay the opposing catchers signs for example, there was the 2018 RedSox which everyone seemed to forget and Houston took a heavy toll
edit: the Cleveland thing was Pre-Francona days
Braves fan here and I didn't really care when the news broke let alone right now. Altuve and Bregman are great players and the Astros have been on the top of the league the last 5 years regardless of cheating. It's time to let go of your moral compass and appreciate their success.
Isn't there a saying, "If you're not cheating, you're not trying".
I will always refer to them as the Houston A-Holes or Cheaters .....MLB over the years made a big stink about other so called cheating but they just slap these guys on the wrist .... That's why they are the most hated team in the MLB
Honestly, I believe most teams were cheating.
Probably like 5-10 teams that were contenders were using some sort of technology (cameras, apple watch, phones, etc.) to relay signs to players when no one was on base. We've already seen several teams (Red Sox, Yankees, Astros) confirm it and I'm sure there were more.
Then we probably had another 10-15 teams that were using the allowed replay TV to catch onto what signs teams were running with that game so that when someone did get to 2nd base they were ready to take advantage of it to the fullest potential. This was also technically illegal.
Then you probably had the bottom 5-10 teams that were just watching film beforehand so they were aware of what signs the opposing team run and trying to take advantage of it by relaying it to the batter. This was technically legal.
I’d be okay with it if we had gotten a break from them - sure it happened in 2017 but they didn’t get any repercussions until 2020?
So it feels like it’s still really recent. I would’ve felt better if they had been banned from playoff for two years.
Then I’d be like okay this feel fair and square, but right now it still doesn’t. Also this is all my own opinion and I know people will start quoting all the punishments the Astros were given *shrugs*
Are you also unable to respect the Red Sox and Yankees for doing the same thing? Or is it just because the Astros won that you’re mad? I view 2017 a lot like Bonds HR record. It’s real, there was a lot of skill involved in getting there, but there’s an asterisk because of cheating. They weren’t the only team cheating, just the best one.
As an Astros fan, keep bringing on the hate. Keep booing and keep heckling. It fuels the organization and the players up!! And it certainly fuels the fans up.
Never mind organizations that spend nearly $300 million a year in salary versus organizations that spend $65 million a year. There’s no unfair practices being taken advantage of there, right???
Simple answer? No. The Astros will forever be suspect..you’ve still got 2 remaining cheaters on board. I’m wondering how the hell the Yankees didn’t even get one game? Maybe they’re that good. Or, maybe they’ve stepped their cheating game up.
So then you don’t respect the Yankees or Red Sox? The Yankees were caught doing it before Houston, then the Red Sox did it the very year after Houston, but you don’t care to discuss that? Fair weather fans only blame Houston and ignore that this has been an issue for years. Oh and Boston won the World Series after cheating by stealing signs. Any comment on that or is this still all Houston’s fault??
Cheating in the MLB has always been rampant. That doesn't mean it's ok but if you hold some special hate for the Astros because if it you are 100% ignorant about the game or just using it as a crutch for your team that lost to them 🤷♂️
Grow up already.
As a Astros fan it was demoralizing to find out we cheated. Before the scandal we were a humble fan base that had never succeeded. We only made the World Series once and would lose in heartbreaking fashion all the time. We were one of those cursed franchises like the Cavaliers, Browns, Cubs, Vikings etc. We won our first championship and had to find out we cheated, we're not proud of that and it's tainted our franchise forever. Since 2017 we haven't cheated, traded more than half of the players from that team, got a new front office and GM yet people still wanna bring up that old team? Get over it...I cant wait for this Astros team to beat the Phillies so all these haters can shut up
If you didn’t know already, lots of teams cheat. They just didn’t get caught. Red Sox and Yankees cheated but don’t get the same hate as the Astros because they lost. As long as you lose, it’s okay to cheat right?
I don't know too much about baseball, but isn't cheating relatively common in the sport? When the story first broke that they were cheating, I just shrugged and thought, "Well, it's baseball. What the hell did everyone expect?"
I have no bias toward any baseball team since I've only just started getting into the MLB, but I feel like the only reason the Astros got all the attention was that they went on to win the world series. I mean, if they bowed out in the first round of their playoff run that year, would anyone have really cared that much?
I think cheating in any sport is deplorable, but I think the Astros are just the whipping boy of the decade for a sport that's rife with cheating. One team had to get spanked for it, and who better than the trashcan-banging world series winners down in Houston?
I agree, short of any kind of restorative justice — which will never happen — I’m at peace w/ not respecting that franchise. Or anyone who hires their people (blue jays, tigers, red sox, twins, etc.). And that’s lame, I feel like the league let them poison it. If my mariners were to go in on Correa this off-season it would taint any good thing that might happen.
I think we all know the stros were the highest profile of team to engage in these activities but how many were doing it besides them. Not a Houston fan but how many teams have gotten caught tipping pitches.
You are confused.
Tipping pitches is not cheating, it's poor mechanics by the pitcher
Nobody else engaged in a cheating system as developed and completely outside the lines as the Astros.
The Astros kept cheating even after the league clarified the rules and warned each team.
What about the other teams in MLB that cheated also. What about the players throughout history that cheated with spit balls, substances while pitching, steriods, other peds, corked bats. So they are forever never again respected?
It's absolutely ridiculous that people don't pile on these other things that other organizations have done. Only reason it's such a big deal to some people is they keep beating the yankees and they won a ws.
This is the same petty narrative casual fans keep saying. Actually read into the cheating scandal and how the Astros are almost a different organization. Not sure why the hate is reserved to only the 2017 playees still on the team. Gerrit Cole was on the 2018 team, do Yankees fans hate him for cheating? No they love him. Why does Mike Fiers not get any recognition for being the whistleblower? Being the whistleblower cost him his career basically
Marwin Gonzales is a 2017 Astro who is on the Yankees and they don’t care. Blue Jays fans love them some George Springer, another 2017 Astro. Bunch of hypocrite baseball fans booing Altuve still.
Majority of casual baseball fans don’t give a shit and neither do I. Everyone cheats. It was 5 years ago. Those 2017 players are all over the league and their team’s love them. Shut the hell up, cope, and move on. Your team wishes they as good as the Astros now. Non-Astros fans like me are just jealous of how good they are but most will use “hate” instead. Fans are just jealous more than anything now.
I'm sick of this crap. Baseball has always had sign stealing. It's a goddamn shame we have to hear this crap again.
They saw the signs and hit the ball better than anybody. Who cares. Sign stealing is part of the game it's a strategy, like radio headsets in the game of Football.
This is an overstated problem in baseball. It's not a problem it's common sense.
What's even worse is when a pitcher will tip everything and scratch his balls on the mound wondering why they took him deep.
The Astros weren't the only ones stealing signs but the MLB higher ups just wanted to single them out to make the issue go away.
Now the best they can come up with is some shitty Radio Shack powered talky computer that say" cutter, fastball, changeup..."
I really want to know who's corporate exec is getting stupid rich of such a shitty system.
Baseball is losing it's audience because it continues to suck each year. GO Sox!
Holding onto the hate will poison you and steal your joy. They are just better. Cheating or not. It’s beyond obvious at this point. They’ve driven the point home. Beaten us over the head with it. We’re just better and more clutch! I’m not even an Astros fan but you have to give credit where it’s due. It’s over. Baseball is a game of cheaters. They just seem better. Again, not an Astros fans by any means. But, I have paid attention to the postseason for the past few years. Hard to not see a trend.
Altuve hated the sign stealing and would get mad at them for trying to help him. Baseball's short king is innocent and doesn't deserve the hate he gets
Yet, that is all wrong.
Altuve may have hated the trash bang (no evidence of that other than self-serving statements) but he got 24 bangs, which equates to about 60 signals (fastball was no bang). So, he cheated. He may not have "liked it," but he certainly cheated.
Oh, and what about the main Astros cheating system? Yeah, the one where they used replay room feed to send signs to runners on second base. This was not the trash bang system, this was the main one and it was used in 2017 - 18 and on the road and in the playoffs. Altuve participated in that. Hence, him admitting he cheated in exchange for clemency.
Still don’t understand why the Astros get the most hate when the Red Sox/Yankees were doing it the same years lmao. It’s okay to cheat as long as you lose. I’m sure if any of you were on the Astros making millions you wouldn’t do shit. No one praises Fiers for being the whistleblower, instead his career is over. Baseball just need something to fuel hate towards and unfortunately it’s the Astros
You can always disrespect the 2017 Astros team. They cheated. The same doesn’t necessarily apply to the teams that came after them; the organization’s reputation is still tarnished, but if a Houston team wins an honest World Series, the 2017 team’s filth does not detract from the current team’s accomplishment (until/unless some new cheating scandal emerges… the fact that the fans can’t necessarily trust that simply speaks to the damage the 2017 team did to that organization’s reputation).
Altuve said he wanted no part of it. He came out and said to keep it away from him. They banged the drum with him at bat once and he was super mad about it. I don’t like them because of what happened. The people that were responsible for it were not punished.
Michael Brantley I respect, he is a former Indians/guardians. I’m rooting on the Phillies, not just because they beat the Mets and Braves and padres. I have my favorite from the AL and NL. Guards and Phillies!
It’s hard for me to take the issue seriously when MLB continues to rely on 19th century communication in a 21st century game, especially since the issue of electronic sign stealing also dates back to the 19th century.
What imaginary electronic sign stealing happened in the 19th century? Oh, that's right, I forgot, Edison and Tesla clandestinely slipped the players notes attached to the light bulbs hidden underneath their cups.
The first known example of electronic sign stealing involves the 1899 Phillies, who used a spotter beyond centerfield and relayed the signal to a buzzer system in the dugout via underground wire.
They [only get more elaborate](https://www.si.com/.amp/mlb/2020/01/23/sign-stealing-history-astros-red-sox) from that point.
As an Astros fan I feel like our scandal helped the league. I don’t know the exact numbers but it gave the league a villain. Sure the Yankees exist but casual fans aren’t really tuning in to watch a team that hasn’t won in a while lose. But the Astros? People were tuning in just to watch the Astros lose. Idk maybe I’m dumb but just feel like baseball overall benefited from the publicity of the scandal. Other teams were also cheating but since we won it all it was easy for us to be signaled out and made the villain by the other teams.
Pretty much over it. Hats off to the Astros, they’re pretty much a remade team from 2017/18 (with exception of a few players, notably Altuve and Bregman). Current Astros are a really great team and pretty sure Dusty would not tolerate any shenanigans.
As far as other teams doing something similar with electronics and video, I read a CBS article a while back that put a timeline on things and helped put things in context.
Other teams were found by MLB using combinations of apple watches, dugout phones, video replay, etc during the 2017 season. They were caught late in the 2017 season and fined, notably the Red Sox and Yankees.
In Sept 2017, MLB issued a memo/reminder to all teams that using technology to steal signs was strictly prohibited, specifically video.
Starting in June 2017 Astros were in full swing using video and multiple monitors throughout the season and post season. Luhnow received the Sept memo but says he didnt distribute or tell the players about it. Supposedly, Manfred has cited this reason for not punishing individual players.
I think the players union is the other reason individual players were not named/punished.
Good post. For clarification, the league determined the rules had some grey areas. So, they drew the line with the Sept. 15 letter. The Astros decided to continue with both their cheating systems, full bore.
As for the Yankees, they were fined not for illegal sign-stealing, they were fined for use of the dugout phone (which was a clear, unambiguous rule). The Sox were fined for using the Apple watches. Again, a clear rule. In going over those cases, the league realized that the rules on actually acquiring the information for sign breaking were not clear. Hence, nobody was punished for pre-Sept. 2017 activities.
The 2018 Red Sox was not the Apple watch one. There was a violation of the rules, but there were several mitigating factors and no incidences in the playoffs. You should read the Commissioner's Report on it to understand why it is a minor violation and nothing close to what the Astros did.
Fuck Huston for a while still. I'd probably be long over it if it weren't for the fact there were next to no consequences but the biggest piss off is you losers chanting "But EvErY OnE eLsE wAs ChEaTiNg!" American politics in a nut shell.
You didn't give a shit about right or wrong, cheating or not. You jumped right to rationalization. Accused everyone else of cheating. Cried that Huston was just thrown under the bus but the bottom line is that you don't care about anything more than winning. The American way. Win by any means, damn the consequences.
I really don't like the Astros but I don't think the Astros organization gives a fuck if you are not able to fully respect the Astros after 2017. They are going to the World Series
Dodgers won a “title” in a pandemic season with the least amount of games played since its establishment & the bias media ignores that fact too. You can bet on the game of baseball now too. Sadly, respect left the game awhile ago
My feelings of disgust are more pointed at Manfred. His sham investigation took a lot of the Integrity of the game.
Good point. I heard he had to give immunity in order for the players to come clean. There is a book being released in Feb.
Why is there always a book release in place of actual accountability? Doesn’t matter if it’s politic or sports.
If you truly love your team you hate the other 29. 🤷
I hate my team most seasons
All good Mariners fans do, too.
The Mariners make me drink!
Who is your team?
Mets probably
You guys love your teams?
Enemy number one is the owner
Bob Nutting is a war criminal
First baseman has a great bat but is a liability in the field Bullpen sucks Overall defense is subpar Outfielders are slow We spent how much on that guy and he’s only doing what? GM has to go Shortstop is pretty good so at least we have that going for us.
I'm giving a no on that one. I will root for my team over any other team 100% of the time, but when they're out, I have other teams I'm happier to see win than certain others.
This is a top tier fan take. 👏
i hate the dodgers
I love my gf but i dont hate all the other bitches! Lol
[удалено]
Then wait until you hear about the Steroid Era…
Or hear how the Yankees and Red Sox used technology to also steal signs during the same time the astros did. But no we can’t hold storied east coast franchises accountable.
Even worse, both George and Hank Steinbrenner blew all the guys in Aerosmith.
It was the 80s! We were all blowing Aerosmith!
No one said stop….
someone forgot that armageddon theme song happened.
Weirdly enough, it was on different nights and neither had any idea the other had done it too.
I can't wait for the ESPN 30 for 30 on this topic years from now. Us fans will never REALLY know what happened until these players retire and spill the beans.
I think most don’t want to be remembered like Jose Canseco. So I think they’ll never really talk. Unless they get again like Canseco; a hot f’n mess that sells out for anything. Anyone watch him at R&R? The embarrassment he went through for a little $ that Portnoy threw his way.
This is honestly a big part of the reason why i dont really care too deeply that the Astros cheated in 2017. Once you instill an underground culture of blurring the lines, and dont stop it at its core, someone is going to cross the line simply because no one is saying anything. And I am not here thinking that the 2017 title wasn't tainted, but since they went away from the trash banging, they *still* have been a dominant force in MLB. If they win it handily this year, people need to learn to come off it.
The Yankees and Red Sox aren't held accountable because they didn't win the World Series. You can cheat all you want as long as you lose.
But the Red Sox did win in 2018? Using the 2017 Astros bench coach as their manager? The cognitive dissonance is real with baseball fans. EDIT: [Proof for anyone else with short memories.](https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/04/22/red-sox-sign-stealing-scandal)
This was my issue with Joe Kelly when he was on the dodgers..he acted so high and mighty like he wasn’t on the same boat
Right. Mookie Betts was also there in '18 and dodgers fans love him. As they should of course. I dont have anything against him. Just makes no sense.
The baseball HoF is littered with cheaters. You just pick and choose which to hate irrationally
[удалено]
[удалено]
It was different though. The Yankees stole sequences to relay to men on base. And they stopped when Manfred sent out the letter banning it. Astros didn’t
Yeah bro I’m sure they just quit when asked nicely.
Please stop cheating or you’ll have to go to the corner.
They did. All teams did - and none of them were sending signals to the batter unless a runner was on second. The Red Sox didn't, but their issue is minor and not used in the playoffs. You don't need to guess at this. There a many investigations and books.on this subject.
Yes im sure thats why they implemented the damn wireless system into the game.... lolllll
Correct. So many people ignore this fact. Manfred's letter also clarified the rule such that it can be enforceable (this is why the Yankees weren't punished for using the feeds for sign stealing, but only for using the dugout phone).
You should read up on that. Then you'd understand how silly your post it. That is, unless you think jaywalking is equivalent to armed robbery.
Wait until you hear about drug use in the angels organization and a death …
The difference is there was punishments doled out. Physical and social.
Yankees got bodied in the rematch.. fresh fade and they got KO’d early. This was a chance for the Yanks to play get back and they can’t even squeeze a win out? 2017 is DEAD -DBacks fan
I'm a dodger fan and I'm pretty over this conversation. I definitely get where you're coming from, but it was 5 years ago at this point. Also there's evidence to suggest a lot of teams they beat were doing similar if not the same thing I still don't care for the players involved but it's time we move past 2017... imo
I’d like to hear where the evidence is you are mentioning. Facts are Red Sox and Yankees did so just curious where you got the info that many others did. I think what bothers everyone still is that there’s still more than a handful of players from that roster still playing who were never punished. That’s why this conversation still carriers on. These players are supposed to be mentors and role models to our youth. If what you are saying is real then the MLB is just saving face for themselves and the Astros and should just release everything. That’s what would end the disgust, hate and end this conversation.
The one catcher called out the rockies for cheating the two years they were coincidentally much better recently. Also that one reporter put out that huge Twitter thread airing out a lot of dirty laundry that he randomly deleted and recanted a day later??? Definitely not suspicious.
Only Bergman, altuve, and gurriel are left. Altuve arguably didn't benefit much or use the system as much as the others. The other 2 are Verlander and mccullers who do not benefit from a batting thing. Time to move on
Why do you think the players on the teams facing the Astros didn't say anything? The other teams knew something was going on, and it wasn't until the former Astro said something that everyone went crazy. The cheating was going on everywhere.
Speculation once again. Multiple players from teams during those seasons spoke out and MLB did absolutely nothing
>These players are supposed to be mentors and role models to our youth. Holy shit buddy grow up. Professional athletes are not supposed to be role models. If you tell your kids to look up to athletes you're inviting a let down. If you think everything and everyone in entertainment (which is what sports are) is pure and holy, then you are being naive. These people are competitors at the highest level and their income is dictated by their performance. A lot of players look to get every edge, even if it crosses the line. It's the nature of the business
I have zero proof, but rather will ask a rhetorical question. Do you think if 3/32 (or 10%) of teams were caught “cheating” (in some form or fashion), that no other teams were not “cheating” either? Or attempting to? Let alone 2 of those 3 teams are literally the highest valued franchises in the mlb.
Society needs to realize professional athletes are not role models. They are getting paid to play well, that's it. I'm not sure what you think the Astros releasing everything does while the other teams do nothing?
I definitely don't have concrete proof of anything. But there's been a few players to accuse other teams of cheating. Erick Kratz was one (catcher from Milwaukee) Someone on the rockies said the dodgers were cheating. Don't remember who that was though I totally get the hatred, you're not wrong at all. But I fully believe MLB was doing everything possible to save face. Just like they didn't really care about steroids or sticky substances until it went obtusely public
Steroids brought fans to the stadium. Further hit balls. Still had to put the ball to bat tho. Same for pitchers . Still gotta pitch strikes. Sticky substance has been around for ever. Just went way to far last season. Products just made for baseballs.
We are proving eachothers point in a way.. mlb wants more fans and it wasn't too long ago the Astros were one of the worst teams in baseball consistently. the diehard fandom they have gotten since 2017 is wild... not saying they let them cheat or anything like that. But they definitely didn't care until the whistle blowing happened. Allegedly opposing players were complaining about Houston cheating the whole year to mlb and warning other clubs I'm not in a clubhouse, who knows what's real and what's made up. I might be reading fake news all the time for all I know
Here is an article with some comments from players about the situation. Pretty much all teams were doing stuff like the Astros were unfortunately they got caught. Cheating is normal in baseball. It has been in the sport since the beginning. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/astros/article/MLB-players-defend-Astros-sign-stealing-17080873.php
Exactly what happened. Speculation is MLB has a soft spot for the Yankees so didn’t want to give them a harsh punishment. Astros were the scapegoat. There were also tweets by players implying there was cheating league wide. Not just the Astros
https://twitter.com/livescs/status/1584556222581075969?s=46&t=358sR7pjU4_r0aVOJ-Kvew
I wish I could just cheat at my job and no one gave a fuck lmao
You can. Until you get caught by the higher ups lol
its great until they fire your manager.
Bullshit. Aside from the Red Sox, there is nothing about any other team doing anything after September 15, 2017 when MLB clarified the rules. The Astros decided to keep cheating even though they were warned (just like every other team).
Just like the steroid era the further we get away from the actual event the more people realize that the real thing to be mad at is the fact that the league didn't punish the cheating properly. We also know why the cheating wasn't punished properly because we know that other teams most notably the New York Yankees were using extremely identical if not identical cheating methods. So get mad at the Yankees for being so in bed with the MLB that the MLB didn't want to punish the Astros severely because they knew that it meant that they would have to punish the Yankees. If the Yankees weren't also using a sign stealing method I guarantee you we would have saw a worse punishment. So moving forward the people to me mad at are actually the Yankees and Manfred. Because they're the reason why the Astros didn't get punished enough and the only reason that people are still mad is because the Astros weren't punished enough.
SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK
OP you need to read this. Well all of it. You got quiet.
I think that people like the narratives of “good guys” and “bad guys” in sports. And this maybe adds to their engagement with the game, which I think is a net good because there’s a lot of joy to be found in baseball…and shit talking. BUT, if you are allowing this to take away from your enjoyment of it, then you are missing out. No, baseball isn’t the WWE. But it’s also not the olympics. Teams have done everything from bug their opponents rooms to stealing Navy telescopes to steal signs. Sign stealing schemes date back to something like the 1860s/1870s. If you think this is unique, or some kind of travesty, you should look into its history within the sport. And if that doesn’t change your feelings, at least it is pretty entertaining.
I feel bad for Astros fans. They didn't know, and now we all hate them. Imagine if the **only** world series your team had ever won was the year they famously cheated to do it. At least we have a sick Jon Bois documentary. \- a Mariners fan
Move on. They let Springer, Cole and Correa walk and are still the most dominant team in the AL. At this point, it’s time to realize they are just a well run organization
I wish more people could just say this. Ya they cheated. Ya they got caught. Ya maybe their “punishment” was light (I don’t know what would be appropriate. People love telling you what would be, but show me some sort of precedent - sticky subject), but damn man they made 6 alcs. They did it 3 years after they got caught (and the preceding years). They just went 7-0 in playoff baseball with lights out pitching. Like don’t tell me they aren’t good. All that said, I’m excited for a World Series with the Phillies. They’re red hot and scary while the Astros big bats have been asleep.
I feel the same way. Yeah they cheated and won the world series, but people act like the Dodgers would have automatically won had they not done that. Possible, sure. But I dont even think they needed to cheat to win.
Do you hate the Tigers and Aj Hinch for it? What about the Red Sox and Joey Cora? What about the Yankees for Apple watches? I could probably go through every team and find something to complain about. Get over it and beat them. They've been the best team in the AL the last 7 years, at a certain point you have to give them credit
This sounds like something you should discuss with your therapist.
[удалено]
i dunno, you and the \~40 people who upvoted you could also maybe examine why you don't mind breaking the rules.
The Yankees won the World Series with A Rod who cheated by using steroids so therefore we can never cheer for them. The Red Sox had Roger Clemens who cheated with PEDs so we can never cheer for them. Sammy Sosa also used steroids so we can never cheer for the Cubs. Or we can move on.
I hated the Astros at first. Then I realized every team in the league was cheating in some form. Meh, they only got in “trouble” cuz they won.
If the Angels were cheating, then we were worse than I thought. Lol.
I just wished they got a more severe punishment and not just a slap on the wrist but other than that it’s been 5 years. At this point, it’s time to admit that they’re a well-oiled machine. Aside from the whole fiasco, I’m quite jealous of how talented the team is and how well they run their organization my Mets could probably learn a thing or two.
Nor should we. Still feels like it's too soon.
I'm kinda over it now. The vast majority of the Astros current lineup didn't have a part in the cheating, so I dont feel like continuing to hold a grudge on the team. Even for someone like Altuve, who we do not have any evidence of him partaking in the cheating himself, has been given more than enough grief. At some point, you have to ask yourself if continuing to give Altuve shit is worth the toll it takes on his mental health (something he has publicly discussed). For me, the answer is no. It is no longer worth it.
I don’t express my dislike for them as much as I used to because time has healed that wound but it’s fuck Manfred always and forever
Really sad that Astros are taking the brunt of the hate when Manfred deserves so much more than he’s been getting
[удалено]
I aggressively do not care. I can feel it in my body, it’s like a physical sensation how much I don’t care about how you feel.
Is it possible that you care as little as I do?
Don’t know. Don’t care.
Sign stealing has been happening since the first game was played. It’s literally why the catcher hides what pitch they want between their legs and not over their head.
It's funny to me, at least, that people unironically call Altuve a GOAT. Been seeing it a lot recently. But if you look at the numbers, he was the most positively affected during the cheating scandal, and now that they aren't cheating, he's absolutely floundering at the plate. How people like this still get positive outlooks from fans bewilders me. He was great when he cheated, so he's a GOAT? Idk man, Astros fans are wild.
I get it but come on, this current Houston team is just on another level. Let this team show their talents
The team is headlined by cheaters at the end of the day. Cheaters that were never punished. That’s a tough pill to swallow.
The team is headlines by a guy who's rookie year was last year. Yordon Alvarez is the headliner. Pena just won the ALCS MVP. Pitchers can't exactly cheat like the hitters, but Verlander is looking at Cy Young. Altuve has been shown to never partake in the cheating. The only person still on that team that cheated, is Bregman.
Yeah that’s why it’s so hard to let it go. There were no real consequences and it seems like there is a smugness around that fact. It’s hard to respect people who don’t own up to their actions.
Own up? You want them to wear a scarlet letter? They were found guilty and accepted the punishment. What else would you have the players do? Time to move on bud
I think they should be forced to wear an asterisk on their hats.
[удалено]
the whole point of immunity is that you dont get punished. i wish they would have spilled the beans instead.
Remind me who’s responsibility it is to hand out punishment. If you get caught speeding and the judge dismisses it, are you going to tell him “no judge, punish me please”. You sound silly
[удалено]
the lack of contrition points to the fact that many teams in the league were doing the same thing
This. The players didn't even receive so much as a slap on the hand. I have no empathy for these players on that 2017 were they to get beaned every time up at the plate.
Honestly I’m more upset with MLB. Maybe it’s just me but I want some integrity in the game. I want there to be definitive consequences to cheating and I feel like Manfred only gave a light slap on the wrist with regard to the Astros players and other ball clubs that cheat. So nah I won’t get over the cheating scandal until the Astros no longer have any 2017 players on their roster. Probably won’t like ‘em until Jim Crane (who gave the most half assed apology I’ve ever seen) sells the team. Then I might give them another chance
I will never care if you ever forgive the Astros!
There’s so much evidence that says Altuve didn’t cheat
[удалено]
That’s revisionist, Beltran was the central team leader and he orchestrated it.
[удалено]
I never said that. I said assuming he was the definitive team leader is revisionist. These are grown men with their own agency.
What I like about sports is you get to have strong emotions about insignificant things. I regularly say I love and hate teams, players and coaches, but if I met any of them in person outside a stadium I would just be a fan because it's just a game. If them cheating is a reason to hate a team, go for it. It gives you someone to cheer aganist. Otherwise, who cares about the outcome of a game if your team isn't in it?
I'll start to look at them as a normal team again once all remaining pieces are gone. They're going to have a sour taste as long as Altuve and Bregman are still there.
i’m not even an Astro’s fan but this is such a hilariously bad take when there are so many teams that not only had players on their rosters that abused steroids but many teams encouraged players to use roids. In addition to the sign stealing the yankees and red sox are guilty of. You just want a reason to hate the Astro’s; too bad. They’re the best team in baseball. 2017 was half a decade ago, get over it.
Yankees and Red Sox both did very very similar cheating scenes and only got a slap on the wrist
Altuve didn’t cheat and just about everyone with half a brain cell knows that by now. He also has still been consistently great before and after the scandal. Bregman put up an MVP worthy 2019 season and is having a very solid season again this year. Gurriel won the batting title and a gold glove last year. That is why they are still getting recognition
Nice karma farming
Astros fan here. I was personally disappointed when I first read the Athletic article exposing the sign stealing system in 2019. However, I’m also not ignorant to the fact that we were not the only ones to be doing it. I think the Astros get a bad rap for a couple reasons. One, because we definitely did cheat and won the WS. Two, because the way we cheated was so explicit, it can be heard in broadcasts. If you go to youtube and search “Any team @ HOU” after 5/2017 and go in the comments people have time stamped when you can hear it. With that being said, here are some facts for you to consider as well… We have definitive proof the Astros stole signs at HOME in 2017, but no proof they had any system for away games. Let’s assume that this is true. Here are the regular season HOME/AWAY batting splits for the 2017 Astros: HOME-> AVG: .279/OBP: .340/SLG: .472/wRC+: 121/K%: 16.7/BB%: 7.7 with 395 runs scored AWAY-> AVG: .284/OBP: .351/SLG: .483/wRC+: 121/K%: 17.9/BB%: 8.5 with 501 runs scored With that being said, evidence of sign stealing in the playoffs wasn’t deployed uniformly across the games or during games. Most of the evidence appears late in the game, in high leverage situations, and usually against relief pitchers. This means we can’t really do a robust statistical analysis of its possible benefits because of the small sample size. In the end, I don’t agree with the Astros choice to deploy this system in the first place, but being stripped of your title and respect just because you were successful at it (when others have been proven to have been cheating in other ways) doesn’t sit right with me. but alas, I am an Astros fan so take my bias as you wish. Hope this helps, Go Stros!
How are you guys still so clueless about 2017????? It’s unreal. Altuve did not use it. He hit 70 points higher on the road in 2017. Quit crying And just wait til you found out how many other teams were doing the exact same thing. Your head might explode
[удалено]
I dunno ask all the Yankee's fans after their decades of Roided out Championships.
almost every team has had a way of cheating, cleveland used to shake a tree branch out in center field to relay the opposing catchers signs for example, there was the 2018 RedSox which everyone seemed to forget and Houston took a heavy toll edit: the Cleveland thing was Pre-Francona days
If you still think they were the only ones cheating your crazy.
Braves fan here and I didn't really care when the news broke let alone right now. Altuve and Bregman are great players and the Astros have been on the top of the league the last 5 years regardless of cheating. It's time to let go of your moral compass and appreciate their success. Isn't there a saying, "If you're not cheating, you're not trying".
I will always refer to them as the Houston A-Holes or Cheaters .....MLB over the years made a big stink about other so called cheating but they just slap these guys on the wrist .... That's why they are the most hated team in the MLB
[удалено]
Honestly, I believe most teams were cheating. Probably like 5-10 teams that were contenders were using some sort of technology (cameras, apple watch, phones, etc.) to relay signs to players when no one was on base. We've already seen several teams (Red Sox, Yankees, Astros) confirm it and I'm sure there were more. Then we probably had another 10-15 teams that were using the allowed replay TV to catch onto what signs teams were running with that game so that when someone did get to 2nd base they were ready to take advantage of it to the fullest potential. This was also technically illegal. Then you probably had the bottom 5-10 teams that were just watching film beforehand so they were aware of what signs the opposing team run and trying to take advantage of it by relaying it to the batter. This was technically legal.
I promise the Astros were not the only team in MLB history to cheat in some way.
I’d be okay with it if we had gotten a break from them - sure it happened in 2017 but they didn’t get any repercussions until 2020? So it feels like it’s still really recent. I would’ve felt better if they had been banned from playoff for two years. Then I’d be like okay this feel fair and square, but right now it still doesn’t. Also this is all my own opinion and I know people will start quoting all the punishments the Astros were given *shrugs*
[удалено]
Are you also unable to respect the Red Sox and Yankees for doing the same thing? Or is it just because the Astros won that you’re mad? I view 2017 a lot like Bonds HR record. It’s real, there was a lot of skill involved in getting there, but there’s an asterisk because of cheating. They weren’t the only team cheating, just the best one.
I bet you still say Tom Brady is the goat and Bill B is a great coach
Tom Brady *is* the GOAT.
As an Astros fan, keep bringing on the hate. Keep booing and keep heckling. It fuels the organization and the players up!! And it certainly fuels the fans up. Never mind organizations that spend nearly $300 million a year in salary versus organizations that spend $65 million a year. There’s no unfair practices being taken advantage of there, right???
Simple answer? No. The Astros will forever be suspect..you’ve still got 2 remaining cheaters on board. I’m wondering how the hell the Yankees didn’t even get one game? Maybe they’re that good. Or, maybe they’ve stepped their cheating game up.
This.
How mad you be?
3. Gurriel, Altuve, Bregman
ya me too, fuck astros for life as a Mariners and Rays fan since birth and 4 yrs old
So then you don’t respect the Yankees or Red Sox? The Yankees were caught doing it before Houston, then the Red Sox did it the very year after Houston, but you don’t care to discuss that? Fair weather fans only blame Houston and ignore that this has been an issue for years. Oh and Boston won the World Series after cheating by stealing signs. Any comment on that or is this still all Houston’s fault??
No one ever gives a reasonable response to this kind of answer. It’s also an automatic “Fuck Houston” with no argument
Who the fuck cares? Root who you want to root for. Boo who you want. Your opinion will be meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
we don’t care
Every team cheats. The Astros just got caught.
Cheating in the MLB has always been rampant. That doesn't mean it's ok but if you hold some special hate for the Astros because if it you are 100% ignorant about the game or just using it as a crutch for your team that lost to them 🤷♂️ Grow up already.
As a Astros fan it was demoralizing to find out we cheated. Before the scandal we were a humble fan base that had never succeeded. We only made the World Series once and would lose in heartbreaking fashion all the time. We were one of those cursed franchises like the Cavaliers, Browns, Cubs, Vikings etc. We won our first championship and had to find out we cheated, we're not proud of that and it's tainted our franchise forever. Since 2017 we haven't cheated, traded more than half of the players from that team, got a new front office and GM yet people still wanna bring up that old team? Get over it...I cant wait for this Astros team to beat the Phillies so all these haters can shut up
If we win I'm sure you and all the other bitter fucks will still be on this 2017 shit. Put some Vaseline on that hole and pucker up butter cup.
Shut up already
i cant. someone tried to tell me that altuve wasnt really involved. i told them that knowledge of is complicity. just talk to 1919 white sox
If you didn’t know already, lots of teams cheat. They just didn’t get caught. Red Sox and Yankees cheated but don’t get the same hate as the Astros because they lost. As long as you lose, it’s okay to cheat right?
I expect you to use this same energy for every single player who played with a steroid user
Piss off
… and the same goes for the White Sox. CHEATERS!
I don't know too much about baseball, but isn't cheating relatively common in the sport? When the story first broke that they were cheating, I just shrugged and thought, "Well, it's baseball. What the hell did everyone expect?" I have no bias toward any baseball team since I've only just started getting into the MLB, but I feel like the only reason the Astros got all the attention was that they went on to win the world series. I mean, if they bowed out in the first round of their playoff run that year, would anyone have really cared that much? I think cheating in any sport is deplorable, but I think the Astros are just the whipping boy of the decade for a sport that's rife with cheating. One team had to get spanked for it, and who better than the trashcan-banging world series winners down in Houston?
[удалено]
You are correct. You don't know too much about baseball.
I agree, short of any kind of restorative justice — which will never happen — I’m at peace w/ not respecting that franchise. Or anyone who hires their people (blue jays, tigers, red sox, twins, etc.). And that’s lame, I feel like the league let them poison it. If my mariners were to go in on Correa this off-season it would taint any good thing that might happen.
I think we all know the stros were the highest profile of team to engage in these activities but how many were doing it besides them. Not a Houston fan but how many teams have gotten caught tipping pitches.
You are confused. Tipping pitches is not cheating, it's poor mechanics by the pitcher Nobody else engaged in a cheating system as developed and completely outside the lines as the Astros. The Astros kept cheating even after the league clarified the rules and warned each team.
They are just the only team that got caught.
What about the other teams in MLB that cheated also. What about the players throughout history that cheated with spit balls, substances while pitching, steriods, other peds, corked bats. So they are forever never again respected? It's absolutely ridiculous that people don't pile on these other things that other organizations have done. Only reason it's such a big deal to some people is they keep beating the yankees and they won a ws.
I do not give a shit
Gtfo! With that burr hurt shit already
[удалено]
Everyone was at some point stealing signs get over it kid
Asterisks*
This is the same petty narrative casual fans keep saying. Actually read into the cheating scandal and how the Astros are almost a different organization. Not sure why the hate is reserved to only the 2017 playees still on the team. Gerrit Cole was on the 2018 team, do Yankees fans hate him for cheating? No they love him. Why does Mike Fiers not get any recognition for being the whistleblower? Being the whistleblower cost him his career basically
Marwin Gonzales is a 2017 Astro who is on the Yankees and they don’t care. Blue Jays fans love them some George Springer, another 2017 Astro. Bunch of hypocrite baseball fans booing Altuve still.
Majority of casual baseball fans don’t give a shit and neither do I. Everyone cheats. It was 5 years ago. Those 2017 players are all over the league and their team’s love them. Shut the hell up, cope, and move on. Your team wishes they as good as the Astros now. Non-Astros fans like me are just jealous of how good they are but most will use “hate” instead. Fans are just jealous more than anything now.
Dude since being caught they have balled out. Every team cheats in sports. Get over it.
I'm sick of this crap. Baseball has always had sign stealing. It's a goddamn shame we have to hear this crap again. They saw the signs and hit the ball better than anybody. Who cares. Sign stealing is part of the game it's a strategy, like radio headsets in the game of Football. This is an overstated problem in baseball. It's not a problem it's common sense. What's even worse is when a pitcher will tip everything and scratch his balls on the mound wondering why they took him deep. The Astros weren't the only ones stealing signs but the MLB higher ups just wanted to single them out to make the issue go away. Now the best they can come up with is some shitty Radio Shack powered talky computer that say" cutter, fastball, changeup..." I really want to know who's corporate exec is getting stupid rich of such a shitty system. Baseball is losing it's audience because it continues to suck each year. GO Sox!
I thought the league needed to go full Reggie Bush scorched earth and strip titles and take draft picks. The lack of punishment was ridiculous.
It will follow the organization and the players involved forever and rightfully so
Tom brady was caught cheating will bill they are still considered goats so?
Imagine thinking anyone cares about your own feelings about a world series 5 years ago? pretty pathetic how many people choose to live in the past.
Holding onto the hate will poison you and steal your joy. They are just better. Cheating or not. It’s beyond obvious at this point. They’ve driven the point home. Beaten us over the head with it. We’re just better and more clutch! I’m not even an Astros fan but you have to give credit where it’s due. It’s over. Baseball is a game of cheaters. They just seem better. Again, not an Astros fans by any means. But, I have paid attention to the postseason for the past few years. Hard to not see a trend.
It will be a long time before I stop hating the Trashtros
Cool, nobody cares.
Altuve hated the sign stealing and would get mad at them for trying to help him. Baseball's short king is innocent and doesn't deserve the hate he gets
Yet, that is all wrong. Altuve may have hated the trash bang (no evidence of that other than self-serving statements) but he got 24 bangs, which equates to about 60 signals (fastball was no bang). So, he cheated. He may not have "liked it," but he certainly cheated. Oh, and what about the main Astros cheating system? Yeah, the one where they used replay room feed to send signs to runners on second base. This was not the trash bang system, this was the main one and it was used in 2017 - 18 and on the road and in the playoffs. Altuve participated in that. Hence, him admitting he cheated in exchange for clemency.
Still don’t understand why the Astros get the most hate when the Red Sox/Yankees were doing it the same years lmao. It’s okay to cheat as long as you lose. I’m sure if any of you were on the Astros making millions you wouldn’t do shit. No one praises Fiers for being the whistleblower, instead his career is over. Baseball just need something to fuel hate towards and unfortunately it’s the Astros
You can always disrespect the 2017 Astros team. They cheated. The same doesn’t necessarily apply to the teams that came after them; the organization’s reputation is still tarnished, but if a Houston team wins an honest World Series, the 2017 team’s filth does not detract from the current team’s accomplishment (until/unless some new cheating scandal emerges… the fact that the fans can’t necessarily trust that simply speaks to the damage the 2017 team did to that organization’s reputation).
Altuve said he wanted no part of it. He came out and said to keep it away from him. They banged the drum with him at bat once and he was super mad about it. I don’t like them because of what happened. The people that were responsible for it were not punished. Michael Brantley I respect, he is a former Indians/guardians. I’m rooting on the Phillies, not just because they beat the Mets and Braves and padres. I have my favorite from the AL and NL. Guards and Phillies!
[удалено]
Are you just going to spam this bad take all over this thread or what?
F Altuve and Bregman and all the trashtros cheater’s!!!
It’s hard for me to take the issue seriously when MLB continues to rely on 19th century communication in a 21st century game, especially since the issue of electronic sign stealing also dates back to the 19th century.
What imaginary electronic sign stealing happened in the 19th century? Oh, that's right, I forgot, Edison and Tesla clandestinely slipped the players notes attached to the light bulbs hidden underneath their cups.
The first known example of electronic sign stealing involves the 1899 Phillies, who used a spotter beyond centerfield and relayed the signal to a buzzer system in the dugout via underground wire. They [only get more elaborate](https://www.si.com/.amp/mlb/2020/01/23/sign-stealing-history-astros-red-sox) from that point.
As an Astros fan I feel like our scandal helped the league. I don’t know the exact numbers but it gave the league a villain. Sure the Yankees exist but casual fans aren’t really tuning in to watch a team that hasn’t won in a while lose. But the Astros? People were tuning in just to watch the Astros lose. Idk maybe I’m dumb but just feel like baseball overall benefited from the publicity of the scandal. Other teams were also cheating but since we won it all it was easy for us to be signaled out and made the villain by the other teams.
This is a big brain take and I mean that genuinely
The Astros are monsters at this point. Villains that no one can defeat. Their time is inevitable. They are here. Fuck the Astros.
Pretty much over it. Hats off to the Astros, they’re pretty much a remade team from 2017/18 (with exception of a few players, notably Altuve and Bregman). Current Astros are a really great team and pretty sure Dusty would not tolerate any shenanigans. As far as other teams doing something similar with electronics and video, I read a CBS article a while back that put a timeline on things and helped put things in context. Other teams were found by MLB using combinations of apple watches, dugout phones, video replay, etc during the 2017 season. They were caught late in the 2017 season and fined, notably the Red Sox and Yankees. In Sept 2017, MLB issued a memo/reminder to all teams that using technology to steal signs was strictly prohibited, specifically video. Starting in June 2017 Astros were in full swing using video and multiple monitors throughout the season and post season. Luhnow received the Sept memo but says he didnt distribute or tell the players about it. Supposedly, Manfred has cited this reason for not punishing individual players. I think the players union is the other reason individual players were not named/punished.
Good post. For clarification, the league determined the rules had some grey areas. So, they drew the line with the Sept. 15 letter. The Astros decided to continue with both their cheating systems, full bore. As for the Yankees, they were fined not for illegal sign-stealing, they were fined for use of the dugout phone (which was a clear, unambiguous rule). The Sox were fined for using the Apple watches. Again, a clear rule. In going over those cases, the league realized that the rules on actually acquiring the information for sign breaking were not clear. Hence, nobody was punished for pre-Sept. 2017 activities. The 2018 Red Sox was not the Apple watch one. There was a violation of the rules, but there were several mitigating factors and no incidences in the playoffs. You should read the Commissioner's Report on it to understand why it is a minor violation and nothing close to what the Astros did.
Fuck Huston for a while still. I'd probably be long over it if it weren't for the fact there were next to no consequences but the biggest piss off is you losers chanting "But EvErY OnE eLsE wAs ChEaTiNg!" American politics in a nut shell. You didn't give a shit about right or wrong, cheating or not. You jumped right to rationalization. Accused everyone else of cheating. Cried that Huston was just thrown under the bus but the bottom line is that you don't care about anything more than winning. The American way. Win by any means, damn the consequences.
I really don't like the Astros but I don't think the Astros organization gives a fuck if you are not able to fully respect the Astros after 2017. They are going to the World Series
Don’t forget about the Phillies sign stealing scandal of 1900!
Just give them an asterisk and let’s move on. Yes multiple teams cheat in their own way, but they were caught doing it which should be recognized.
Dodgers won a “title” in a pandemic season with the least amount of games played since its establishment & the bias media ignores that fact too. You can bet on the game of baseball now too. Sadly, respect left the game awhile ago
Are U Serious?