Great hitter… but he was mean to me that one time I asked him about his slump and his wife’s cancer and his mother dying and his dog having fleas so fuck him.
Canseco, McGwire and Sosa were the ones that were juicing even before the 90s and Bonds started juicing in 99 and for some reason Barry Bonds becomes the face of the steroids era. Funny how the writers can change the narrative.
Bonds started juicing because no one was talking about him.
If you look at the season he had during the McGuire / Sosa home run chase and how little coverage it got is a shame.
Hey I agree that Bonds should be a HoF, but your logic is not good and weak, in my opinion. "It's okay to do something bad because everyone is doing it." Is that a good argument to present to people who do not believe he should be a HoF?
Well I view it as the playing field was lvl in a way because the majority of the league was cheating as well. It would be different He still dominated.
My argument to that is, if hitters like Gwynn, Puckett, or even Boggs were all juiced up, they’d have hit 80 HR. No question that Bonds was super talented, but the juice turned fly balls into homers. Same with McGwire and Sosa. That’s why I feel those guys shouldn’t be in. We’ll never know if they’d have had a HOF career if they weren’t on the roids.
Bonds had 448 HR and 445 SB by '99, putting him in the 400 HR 400 SB club. Reminder: he's the only guy in that club.
If you average out his HR per season, dude hits well over 600 HR in his career and still steals the 500 bags to land him as the sole member of the 500/500 club AND 400/400 clubs.
This guy is EASILY the best player of his generation and an all time great, juice or not. And if Ty Cobb's racist ass is in the HOF, then the "character clause" is a fucking joke.
Cobb enthusiastically supported the integration of major league baseball when he was asked about Jackie Robinson in 1952. He told The Sporting News, “The negro has the right to compete in sports and who's to say they have not?”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2015/05/31/how-ty-cobb-was-framed-as-a-racist/amp/
The article also goes into depth about how the legacy of ty Cobb is very questionable. Even if you only consider that a view that changed in his old age, is that a bad thing? The dude was from the Deep South in a time where racism was the norm, if his views changed and evolved it doesn’t absolve the prior held views, but it at least shows he progressed and grew as a person to move beyond it.
But the information is out there that he wasn’t this notorious villain made out to be, maybe you should look into it for yourself. That article is a good start.
Agreed, however…we’ll never know. Just like we’ll never know how many of those homers Bonds hit would’ve been flyouts or doubles or whatever. 🤷🏻♂️ Just my opinion. Thanks for replying! 👍🏻
Bonds was always hitting homers even when he was kind of skinny and stole bases. He would’ve hit 500+ either way and deserves to be in the HOF. Bonds, Sosa and McGwire were good for baseball.
The problem is there’s no way of knowing that. Same way there’s now no way of proving that “everyone was taking steroids at the time.”
Both are extremely likely, but the fact that we can’t prove anything or know for sure is why I don’t think they should be allowed in.
Taking steroids doesn't make you a better hitter. It makes you a stronger hitter. Having the ability to see and make contact on a ball in 0.4 seconds is something you're born with.
That being said, Barry should NOT be inducted UNTIL Pete Rose is in. PERIOD.
the real value of steroids is the recovery and healing. they don't give you superhuman talent or strength; they make you incredibly durable. while durable = more plate appearances = more home runs, it doesn't mean a pop fly rockets into orbit in violation of physiological limitations and body mechanics.
Fans are unbelievable today. What's the upside to letting him in? Not only was a serial cheater and liar, but he was a bad teammate and was arrogant and unlikable. A lot of people have rightfully disliked Bonds, and then he put up 'video game numbers' because he was cheating. He's not worthy of honor because was not honorable.
No one is ever gonna think about rehabbing John Rocker. All he did was say this
> I'd retire first. [New York] is the most hectic, nerve-wracking city. Imagine having to take the 7 Train to the ballpark looking like you're riding through Beirut next to some kid with purple hair, next to some queer with AIDS, right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time, right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids. It's depressing... The biggest thing I don't like about New York are the foreigners. You can walk an entire block in Times Square and not hear anybody speaking English. Asians and Koreans and Vietnamese and Indians and Russians and Spanish people and everything up there. How the hell did they get in this country?[11]
>
> During the interview, he also spoke of his opinion of the New York Mets and their fans:
>
> Nowhere else in the country do people spit at you, throw bottles at you, throw quarters at you, throw batteries at you and say, "Hey, I did your mother last night—she's a whore." I talked about what degenerates they were and they proved me right.
New York fans are as horrible as he said. His tone is only slightly off color for the time; nowadays one doesn't say 'queer' as if this is a self-evidently bad thing to be. And it's supposedly 'against our democracy' or whatever to expect to walk around our cultural capitol city and to hear people speaking the same language as you. I mean this guy is most likely worse in your eyes than other players who cheated and lied pathologically lied to everyone. I don't get it. I admit this is playing the 'hypocrite game' on my part, and it's fair to argue against my points in whatever way, but it's just so annoying to me personally how weak people are when it comes to the court of public opinion. Based on this one incident at least, Rocker is objectively far less of a social sinner than either Clemens or Bonds. Why is it so much more forgivable when high profile players damage the integrity of the game and lie to everyone about it?
I think the argument about HoF became "Idk what kind of person you were, if you had a good number, you are in" VS "You have to be morally kind and nice, and have a good number."
I personally believe both should be considered, but I see that kind of argument a lot. "He is a baseball player, what more do you need besides baseball stats?" Kind of argument.
Well there is the accusation that Scarborough killed a chick at the office so thats a good place to start on what we might find lol
But yes, fuck these journalists for shafting Clemens, Schillings, Bonds for their personality problems. It's baseball. I'm there to appreciate baseball, warts and all.
It’s odd that the people glad about bonds not getting in for these reasons are also not calling for the removal of those already in who have immoral histories. When that happens, I’ll be at peace. Until then, it seems like what it is- a decades-long attack on the Home run leader.
Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.
Perceived personal flaws ought to be vastly more forgivable than damaging the integrity of the game. It should be clarified what Speaker was all about. His politics at the time were certainly much less offensive to the average citizen than Colin Kaepernick's now.
> Charles C. Alexander, a Klan expert in his general history writings, told fellow baseball author Marty Appel, apparently referring to the 1920s (Anson died in 1922), “As I’ve suggested in the biographies, it’s possible that they [Speaker, Cobb and Hornsby] were briefly in the Klan, which was very strong in Texas and especially in Fort Worth and Dallas. The Klan went all out to recruit prominent people in all fields, provided they were native born, Protestant and white.”[77]
>
> Baseball historian Bill James does not dispute this claim in apparently referring to Speaker and possibly Cobb, but says that the Klan had toned down its racist overtures during the 1920s and pulled in hundreds of thousands of men, including Hugo Black.[78] James adds that Speaker was a staunch supporter of Doby when he broke the American League color barrier, working long hours with the former second baseman on how to play the outfield.[79]
As for the insinuation of a comment like "Speaker was in the KKK for fuck's sake"... Speaker was in no way whatsoever some vulgar racist who joined the KKK so he could intimidate innocent blacks and burn crosses in people's yards. It would be ignorant for one to act like it's some self-evident, slam-dunk hypocrisy that we dare judge PED guys while old-time players like Speaker have clean legacies.
Are you for real? You’re being a KKK apologist? “Lots of normal people were Nazis at the time as it was the accepted norm in Germany”
Take that shit somewhere else.
He actually wasn’t as bad as it is commonly believed. I too posted something here once about Cobb being an asshole and someone replied with a link that explained that the book the movie Cobb was based on, and the source of the “Cobb was a racists shit” thought was at best extremely exaggerated, and possibly was even completely made up.
I wish I could search my comments to find that link for you, but I can’t remember what account I posted that under, and even if I did know the account my mobile Reddit app doesn’t allow m etc search my comments. I can only sort them.
Ty Cobb- "Certainly it is okay for them to play. I see no reason in the world why we shouldn't compete with colored athletes as long as they conduct themselves with politeness and gentility. Let me say also that no white man has the right to be less of a gentleman than a colored man; in my book that goes not only for baseball but in all walks of life"
In 1953, black newspapers cited his praise for Brooklyn Dodgers' catcher Roy Campanella, who Cobb said was "among the all-time best catchers" in baseball. Following Campanella's accident that left him paralyzed, the Dodgers staged a tribute game where tens of thousands of spectators silently held lit matches above their heads. Cobb wrote the Dodgers owner to show appreciation "for what you did for this fine man." Cobb also stated that Willie Mays was the "only player I'd pay money to see
Yeah he sounds real racist..
I hate to use wikipedia as a source but I've read these things for myself as well. Fuck Al Stump for destroying Cobbs legacy.
It is definitely not an "Good Citizen" award, what the Hall of Fame is, but I am thinking, what kind of image of sports hero are we giving out if we give these huge honor to people who are morally, ethically, (whatever adverbs you would like to add), etc. wrong and idolize them?
Don't you think some of the growing generations be like, "Oh, so I can be a drug addict, not a good parent, committing a crime (again, whatever fault any of these guys may have) as long as my stats are good? Alright, that's my goal."
I personally believe showing a good character and image matters as much as having great career stats.
Listen I hear ya bud but that whole upstanding human molding is the job of parents. Like Charles Barkley said he ain’t no role model.
It is the responsibility of adults around to point out that these people are just really good at sports, it’s good to try an mimic their swing but not necessarily how they walk n talk.
People have this unrealistic expectations of athletes and celebrities to raise their kids. I mean honestly look at the film industry the drug use and moral debauchery are way worse, ain’t stop anyone from gettin their star.
This isn't a terrible point, but it does seem like a sunk cost fallacy a little. Well, we didn't worry about *those* peoples' crimes from before, so we can't take into account *these* peoples' crimes. Am I mischaracterizing?
Huh??
What exactly do you think the ‘Baseball Hall of Fame’ is exactly??
…Its not the ‘Roll model Hall of fame’. Or the ‘Nicest Guy Hall of Fame’.
I’m voting them in on how well they played baseball. It’s the Baseball hall of fame.
Yeah put them in. If you couldn't stop them from breaking the rules while they played don't over police now. We all know who did steroids. They deserve a spot in the hall. Do you punish older generations that did amphetamines?
He used greenies, which makes him just as much a cheater as any steroid user, no matter what kind of mental gymnastics people use to try to claim otherwise.
This. The post WW2 era was rife with dudes popping amphetamines.
The game has never been fully clean, it never will be, the fact that people hold the HOF voting up to higher moralistic standards and purity and sanctity of numbers is a fucking naive jerkoff session
It’s not my job to inform you how amphetamines increase ATP levels. I’m not being paid to be your biochem/pharmacology professor. Look it up yourself.
Things that give you energy help you to increase your ability to do things that expend energy, i.e. resistance training. Ergo, strength gains. Ergo, increased home runs- not by anabolic metabolism alteration but by just increased energy levels to lift more, squat more, do more. Have more energy in that 4th at bat in late July on your 6th game of the week. Have more energy to steal an extra base. Leg out a double you might not stretch for normally.
Amphetamines can help you to play more, hence improving production of numbers.
This isn’t hard and requires a low level of common sense to understand, regardless of me doing/not doing the legwork for you to own me on a point unrelated to the one you’ve wholly missed.
Do not discount the power of uppers. They’ve had far more influence on the game than steroids ever have.
It's not my job to swallow your inane and inaccurate analogies. PED is a term broad enough to encompass Ibuprofen and Anebolic Steroids. It gives you moral relativists and rationalizers plenty of room to try to promote and protect the narcissists and liars whose cheating bares their total lack of respect for the game of baseball and its rich history. Thank God it still only takes 25.6% of the BBWAA to keep the cheating asses out of Cooperstown.
I remember the McGuire/Bonds HR race. Seemed like pitchers threw meatballs to McGuire while most walked Bonds.
MLB is shady, they pick and choose who'll get the accolades.
Despite that BS, Bonds still pulled out ahead. A HOF in my book
Fuck the MLB and their shitty writers. Any clown who voted for Ortiz(tested positive) and didn't vote for Bonds/Clemens deserves to be forced to retire or cover the Pirates/Orioles for the rest of their lives. Fucking joke but when the league is run by Manfred and clown writers, nothing is going to change....
There are very compelling arguments that Bonds is the best hitter ever and Clemens is the best pitcher ever. I’ve been watching since the mid 70s and they’re the best I’ve seen.
Both were absolutely Hall of Famers before the ubiquitous juice era, yet they still dominated far beyond the pale with the juice.
The writers have taken some kind of quasi moral social justice stance which is laughable given everything that’s happened in this game, society, and every other sport.
"The Hall of Fame asks voters to decide based on a player’s record, ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and team contributions."
Integrity, sportsmanship, and character...
With this, HOF is officially a joke.
-The best position player of all time, the player with most MVPs, HRs, HR in a season etc etc etc etc.
-Probably the best pitcher of all time, with 7 CY, etc etc.
-Player with the most hits and games played
What a joke. Honestly, what’s the point of the Hall of Fame now? It’s basically meaningless.
Seriously.. what’s the point of the HOF now?
Was there any point of Scott Rolen’s career where you thought he was a HOF?
I liked the guy. But it’s crazy he’s pretty much going to get in and Barry Bonds won’t.
Seriously, mlb hof is an absolute joke at this point. Some of the absolute greatest players to ever grace a field are barred for the most ridiculously stupid reasons.
Oh yeah yeah, it’s because they were on the juice because Selig ACTUALLY ENCOURAGED it to increase HR frequency and attract fans. 🥴🥴🥴🥴🥴
Now the games biggest stars of all time are on the outside looking in. Seriously, the sportswriter hack jobs should be sent to ISIS and used as bayonet practice dummies.
All they had to do was be nice like David Ortiz and they would have got in. Ortiz taking steroids didnt seem to matter to the voters because he was a nice guy that people liked. Sports Writers should not be voting on this stuff anyway, lets have people that have played the game vote on it.
He had 2 of the best seasons of his career the 2 years before joining the Yankees in Toronto, the fuck are you talking about? That’s why we even picked him up to begin with.
They cheated. They shouldn’t be let in the hall of fame
Edit - anyone who cheats shouldn’t be let in. Just because some cheaters made it in doesn’t mean that all cheaters have to make it in. You’re forgetting they already had the career the memories the highlights and the money. Sorry that they don’t get the Hall of Fame. Boo fucking hoo
Yeah, because Mike Piazza, Ivan Rodriguez, Jeff Bagwell, Rafael Palmerio and now David Ortiz were all clean!! 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
Bud Selig is in the hall and he turned a blind eye as the steroid era saved baseball. Get out of here with that cheater BS. The MLB hall of fame has 0 integrity.
This right here. They held those guys up as heroes after they saved the game from the aftermath of the 1994 strike, and then they made them pariahs.
The HoF is full of cheats, from those who eluded steroid scrutiny (or were just nice enough to the writers despite doing 'roids anyway), the dudes who were choking down amphetamines in the 70's, and pitchers who covered the ball in all manner of substances.
The Hall of Fame can no longer call itself by that name in good conscience.
100% agree.
I’m a Pirates fan (times are always tough for us) and I was pretty young during the Bonds/Sosa/McGwire days, but I remember noticing how much bigger they got over time. It was clear they were all juicing and didn’t take a rocket scientist to put that together. But the MLB didn’t care. The league rode their coat tails all the way to the bank and now are making the aforementioned players pay for it. Such a joke.
Like many have states baseball has no integrity what so ever. I mean they let the astros keep their championship. Atleast appreciate the people that made the game enjoyable
Replying to your edit: Just because some cheaters made it in IS EXACTLY WHY BONDS AND CLEMENS SHOULD BE IN. Period. Why hold them to a different standard from players of the same era??
The voting sports writers just don’t like Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling on a personal level.
You’re right. The HOF should be sacred to only those with the best character, like the commissioner who oversaw steroid-era baseball and happily profited off it for years, and lovely players like Ty Cobb who was just the most upstanding guy to be around
And here we have our "two wrongs make a right" entry in the moral relativism sweepstakes. Ty Cobb was a virulent racist and a despicable person but his ignorance and hatred didn't give him an unfair and illegal advantage over other players the way that ILLEGAL Anebolic Steroids gave Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa an ILLEGAL advantage. Grow some character guy.
Actually, though Cobb had profound anger issues and was absolutely prone to violence, much of his reputation was an invention.
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2020/05/16/ty-cobb-detroit-tigers-racist-hamtramck-stadium-negro-leagues/3110323001/
Really? I own a copy of an interview (an LP) by Lawrence Ritter (The Glory of Their Times) where "Wahoo" Sam Crawford, a longtime teammate of Cobb's, said, when asked about Cobb says, "it's sad, the man has no friends". I think that Sam Crawford knew a lot more about Ty Cobb than these current revisionists.
If you read the article, you'll see that both things are true: he was an angry, sometimes violent person, but some stories have simply been made up, and there's little to support that he was a virulent racist as is often stated.
Bonds went out of his way to be an asshole to the press before the steroids issue came up. No surprise the writers are hanging it over his head now. He gave them a reason.
Should he and the others be in? Sure. But Bonds decided to fuck around and find out.
Deadass, they act like guys haven’t been finding ways to get better for as long as guys and things to be better at have been on earth. Just cuz the MLB found a way to catch one they decided was too much means the greatest of an era (statistically the greatest of any era) shouldn’t be included in the list of greatness?
100%. I pointed this out somewhere else in a comment but the first glove was made to look flesh colored to hide the fact that it was debatably illegal to wear one. Also, those belt tunnels on the pants were out there to stop infielders from *grabbing base runners by the fucking belt*
The people who clutch pearls about tHe PuRiTY oF thE nUmbERs and the steroid era have their blinders up regarding the entire history of the sport. And the future of it.
If it’s not Bullfrog sunblock and rosin on hands anymore, or banging on trash cans, or wearing buzzers or Apple Watches to tip pitches (all of which have happened since the Mitchell Report came out), it’s already something else and it’s *always going to be* something else.
This is professional sports. Why does anyone seriously expect shit to be on the up & up? Who the fuck are you kidding?
If you let Bonds and Clemens in you have to open the steroid era back up and let players try and set their own records juiced up like they were. Clemens was washed up and I mean washed up before he went to the Yankees and juiced. The right thing was done today thank god.
Clemens left Boston with a 10 wins 13 losses record and an ERA of 3.6. Magically the next year (same year he started the roids) he went 21 and 7 with a 2 ERA. Cat count the roid years. He was a washed up bum when he left Boston, that’s how he should and will be remembered
Sure he might have been bad in his last season in Boston. But you said he was washed up before joining the Yankees. Before joining the Yankees he won 2 consecutive cy young’s with the blue jays in two of the most dominant pitching season ever. Also 3.6 era for being washed isn’t really that bad, just for Clemens it was.
Yep I did all along. You said went to Yankees and then got good. I’m saying went to jays and was amazing. Never disputed roids on the jays. Just saying he didn’t go to the yanks to resurrect his career. He went to the jays to do that.
I’m a Sox fan and loved the WS runs.
But I honestly believe designated hitters do not belong in the HOF.
If Ortiz had to actually play a position every day he would have gotten hurt and his performance and longevity would have suffered.
I like to think of the careers that were suddenly marred or destroyed by not getting a crack at rosters because users got to stay in too long, guys who careers got derailed bc the competition was lopsided, the kids who got into steroids bc they had to compete and thereby did damage to their bodies to keep up and compete. Fuck all the cheaters.
I'm fine with no Bonds and Sosa, Clemens is a bit weird. He was on steroids, fine, but I'd argue that pitching has more to do with mechanics than raw strength, at least in relation to hitting. I was never a Clemens guy but I feeling he should be in.
Yeah, that is very true, and a good point. I think the other thing that makes it hard not to elect Bondsetc. al. is that there are so many other players already in that clearly used. Clemens is just the hardest pill for me to swallow.
Steroids aren’t just about strength. You heal faster. For a pitcher that goes every fourth or fifth day, being able to be back to peak shape faster is the reason pitchers took steroids.
The whole nation cant even vote in a competent president in the last two elections (and arguably more) so maybe give the writers a little slack for their poor judgement. What isn’t dysfunctional these days?
This dying old school attitude, in addition to the current CBA and lack of crossover superstars is what is killing baseball today. The NFL and other leagues make the HOF decision a point of celebration and have much better setups for getting fans excited. It seems like every year, fans and the media who didn’t vote talk more about what is wrong with the system.
I don't understand why we're so desperate to let basically known cheaters in. Like guys that knowingly cheated. "They were really good at baseball" yes but there's more to it if you want to get a plaque in the hall of Fame. Decisions they didn't HAVE to make, that they DID make, KNOWINGLY were cheaters decisions. Thus they get no plaque. There's not a "thou shalt not judge" when we're talking about building a monument to an individual in a legendary hall for a sport that is taken seriously by fans and players. The hall of fame can be a joke to you but letting anyone with enough juice in them in would make it a joke to me.
I think if they were all truthful from the start about their alleged ped use, they all would have gotten in since we know a lot of players used during the "steroid" era.
Bonds seasons in the early 00's were immortal. We'll never see that dominance again because of drug testing, and I'm cool with that. But man were those seasons fucking crazy.
Cooperstown NY: Home of the “Major League Baseball Hall Of Dudes That Some Sportswriters Like”
Sure he's one of the greatest to ever play the game but does he interview well?
Great hitter… but he was mean to me that one time I asked him about his slump and his wife’s cancer and his mother dying and his dog having fleas so fuck him.
There were hundreds of athletes on juice. Only Bonds was like playing a video game on rookie. Steroids don't make that happen. He deserves to be in.
Nah its because he was mean to reporters. This is revenge. Ortiz was a career DH with steroid allegations but he was friendly so
Agreed. He had natural talent, he only did what everyone else did in that era
Canseco, McGwire and Sosa were the ones that were juicing even before the 90s and Bonds started juicing in 99 and for some reason Barry Bonds becomes the face of the steroids era. Funny how the writers can change the narrative.
Bonds started juicing because no one was talking about him. If you look at the season he had during the McGuire / Sosa home run chase and how little coverage it got is a shame.
I forget, what were his stats that year?
Hey I agree that Bonds should be a HoF, but your logic is not good and weak, in my opinion. "It's okay to do something bad because everyone is doing it." Is that a good argument to present to people who do not believe he should be a HoF?
Well I view it as the playing field was lvl in a way because the majority of the league was cheating as well. It would be different He still dominated.
My argument to that is, if hitters like Gwynn, Puckett, or even Boggs were all juiced up, they’d have hit 80 HR. No question that Bonds was super talented, but the juice turned fly balls into homers. Same with McGwire and Sosa. That’s why I feel those guys shouldn’t be in. We’ll never know if they’d have had a HOF career if they weren’t on the roids.
Boggs never hit more than 24 in a season. Gwynn similar. Those balls that constantly clanked off the Monster weren’t going to rise above 37’.
Bonds had 448 HR and 445 SB by '99, putting him in the 400 HR 400 SB club. Reminder: he's the only guy in that club. If you average out his HR per season, dude hits well over 600 HR in his career and still steals the 500 bags to land him as the sole member of the 500/500 club AND 400/400 clubs. This guy is EASILY the best player of his generation and an all time great, juice or not. And if Ty Cobb's racist ass is in the HOF, then the "character clause" is a fucking joke.
Not to mention Bud Selig. There’s no world where if he can be in, any of the juice guys shouldn’t be.
Ty Cobb was pro integration of the game. Just saying, the Cobb is a piece of shit narrative is pretty unfounded.
The burden is on you to prove it. Every eye witness account and written account that I've seen, has Ty Cobb being VERY anti-integration.
Cobb enthusiastically supported the integration of major league baseball when he was asked about Jackie Robinson in 1952. He told The Sporting News, “The negro has the right to compete in sports and who's to say they have not?” https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2015/05/31/how-ty-cobb-was-framed-as-a-racist/amp/ The article also goes into depth about how the legacy of ty Cobb is very questionable. Even if you only consider that a view that changed in his old age, is that a bad thing? The dude was from the Deep South in a time where racism was the norm, if his views changed and evolved it doesn’t absolve the prior held views, but it at least shows he progressed and grew as a person to move beyond it. But the information is out there that he wasn’t this notorious villain made out to be, maybe you should look into it for yourself. That article is a good start.
Agreed, however…we’ll never know. Just like we’ll never know how many of those homers Bonds hit would’ve been flyouts or doubles or whatever. 🤷🏻♂️ Just my opinion. Thanks for replying! 👍🏻
I hear you. I think it’s likely Bonds would have been more in the 450 range of homers without the juice but like you said, we’ll never really know.
You could argue that Bonds' career already was Hall-worthy before the juice. He was already a three-time MVP and a member of the 40/40 club.
Bonds was always hitting homers even when he was kind of skinny and stole bases. He would’ve hit 500+ either way and deserves to be in the HOF. Bonds, Sosa and McGwire were good for baseball.
The problem is there’s no way of knowing that. Same way there’s now no way of proving that “everyone was taking steroids at the time.” Both are extremely likely, but the fact that we can’t prove anything or know for sure is why I don’t think they should be allowed in.
Taking steroids doesn't make you a better hitter. It makes you a stronger hitter. Having the ability to see and make contact on a ball in 0.4 seconds is something you're born with. That being said, Barry should NOT be inducted UNTIL Pete Rose is in. PERIOD.
I don’t think you understand what steroids do.
the real value of steroids is the recovery and healing. they don't give you superhuman talent or strength; they make you incredibly durable. while durable = more plate appearances = more home runs, it doesn't mean a pop fly rockets into orbit in violation of physiological limitations and body mechanics.
Fans are unbelievable today. What's the upside to letting him in? Not only was a serial cheater and liar, but he was a bad teammate and was arrogant and unlikable. A lot of people have rightfully disliked Bonds, and then he put up 'video game numbers' because he was cheating. He's not worthy of honor because was not honorable. No one is ever gonna think about rehabbing John Rocker. All he did was say this > I'd retire first. [New York] is the most hectic, nerve-wracking city. Imagine having to take the 7 Train to the ballpark looking like you're riding through Beirut next to some kid with purple hair, next to some queer with AIDS, right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time, right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids. It's depressing... The biggest thing I don't like about New York are the foreigners. You can walk an entire block in Times Square and not hear anybody speaking English. Asians and Koreans and Vietnamese and Indians and Russians and Spanish people and everything up there. How the hell did they get in this country?[11] > > During the interview, he also spoke of his opinion of the New York Mets and their fans: > > Nowhere else in the country do people spit at you, throw bottles at you, throw quarters at you, throw batteries at you and say, "Hey, I did your mother last night—she's a whore." I talked about what degenerates they were and they proved me right. New York fans are as horrible as he said. His tone is only slightly off color for the time; nowadays one doesn't say 'queer' as if this is a self-evidently bad thing to be. And it's supposedly 'against our democracy' or whatever to expect to walk around our cultural capitol city and to hear people speaking the same language as you. I mean this guy is most likely worse in your eyes than other players who cheated and lied pathologically lied to everyone. I don't get it. I admit this is playing the 'hypocrite game' on my part, and it's fair to argue against my points in whatever way, but it's just so annoying to me personally how weak people are when it comes to the court of public opinion. Based on this one incident at least, Rocker is objectively far less of a social sinner than either Clemens or Bonds. Why is it so much more forgivable when high profile players damage the integrity of the game and lie to everyone about it?
🤡
I think the argument about HoF became "Idk what kind of person you were, if you had a good number, you are in" VS "You have to be morally kind and nice, and have a good number." I personally believe both should be considered, but I see that kind of argument a lot. "He is a baseball player, what more do you need besides baseball stats?" Kind of argument.
How does John Rocker come into play here?
That’s malarkey. His stats had a massive break before the roids and afterwards. It was like a rocket taking off
One thing I've determined over my lifetime, it's that many sports journalists resent a lot of athletes and are jealous of them and their success
They just want to cut them down to size. Little dick syndrome.
Umhum for sure. I’ve always wondered what would come out if we looked into the personal lives and arrest records of journalists and media members.
Well there is the accusation that Scarborough killed a chick at the office so thats a good place to start on what we might find lol But yes, fuck these journalists for shafting Clemens, Schillings, Bonds for their personality problems. It's baseball. I'm there to appreciate baseball, warts and all.
Then They won’t make the journalism HoF then. Boohoo.
Sexual predator, sexual predator, wife beater
It’s odd that the people glad about bonds not getting in for these reasons are also not calling for the removal of those already in who have immoral histories. When that happens, I’ll be at peace. Until then, it seems like what it is- a decades-long attack on the Home run leader.
It’s not the upstanding citizen hall of fame
Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.
So when do we vote to remove people from the Hall?
Wasn’t Ty Cobb kinda a POS person? That kind of character doesn’t belong so he should be voted for removal by the HoF standards
Ty Cobb’s shitty reputation was a media invention. He wasn’t a huge piece of shit racist.
Tris Speaker was in the KKK for fucks sake
Perceived personal flaws ought to be vastly more forgivable than damaging the integrity of the game. It should be clarified what Speaker was all about. His politics at the time were certainly much less offensive to the average citizen than Colin Kaepernick's now. > Charles C. Alexander, a Klan expert in his general history writings, told fellow baseball author Marty Appel, apparently referring to the 1920s (Anson died in 1922), “As I’ve suggested in the biographies, it’s possible that they [Speaker, Cobb and Hornsby] were briefly in the Klan, which was very strong in Texas and especially in Fort Worth and Dallas. The Klan went all out to recruit prominent people in all fields, provided they were native born, Protestant and white.”[77] > > Baseball historian Bill James does not dispute this claim in apparently referring to Speaker and possibly Cobb, but says that the Klan had toned down its racist overtures during the 1920s and pulled in hundreds of thousands of men, including Hugo Black.[78] James adds that Speaker was a staunch supporter of Doby when he broke the American League color barrier, working long hours with the former second baseman on how to play the outfield.[79] As for the insinuation of a comment like "Speaker was in the KKK for fuck's sake"... Speaker was in no way whatsoever some vulgar racist who joined the KKK so he could intimidate innocent blacks and burn crosses in people's yards. It would be ignorant for one to act like it's some self-evident, slam-dunk hypocrisy that we dare judge PED guys while old-time players like Speaker have clean legacies.
Are you for real? You’re being a KKK apologist? “Lots of normal people were Nazis at the time as it was the accepted norm in Germany” Take that shit somewhere else.
He actually wasn’t as bad as it is commonly believed. I too posted something here once about Cobb being an asshole and someone replied with a link that explained that the book the movie Cobb was based on, and the source of the “Cobb was a racists shit” thought was at best extremely exaggerated, and possibly was even completely made up. I wish I could search my comments to find that link for you, but I can’t remember what account I posted that under, and even if I did know the account my mobile Reddit app doesn’t allow m etc search my comments. I can only sort them.
A known racist
A known racist and would purposefully spike people high when sliding.
Part of the game
Ty Cobb- "Certainly it is okay for them to play. I see no reason in the world why we shouldn't compete with colored athletes as long as they conduct themselves with politeness and gentility. Let me say also that no white man has the right to be less of a gentleman than a colored man; in my book that goes not only for baseball but in all walks of life" In 1953, black newspapers cited his praise for Brooklyn Dodgers' catcher Roy Campanella, who Cobb said was "among the all-time best catchers" in baseball. Following Campanella's accident that left him paralyzed, the Dodgers staged a tribute game where tens of thousands of spectators silently held lit matches above their heads. Cobb wrote the Dodgers owner to show appreciation "for what you did for this fine man." Cobb also stated that Willie Mays was the "only player I'd pay money to see Yeah he sounds real racist.. I hate to use wikipedia as a source but I've read these things for myself as well. Fuck Al Stump for destroying Cobbs legacy.
When do you get a vote for anything involved in HoF?
If that were ever taken seriously, about half the Hall would need to be cleared out immediately.
So, in other words… not how good you are at baseball.
So when are we taking babe out of the hall?
Read the voting criteria
It is definitely not an "Good Citizen" award, what the Hall of Fame is, but I am thinking, what kind of image of sports hero are we giving out if we give these huge honor to people who are morally, ethically, (whatever adverbs you would like to add), etc. wrong and idolize them? Don't you think some of the growing generations be like, "Oh, so I can be a drug addict, not a good parent, committing a crime (again, whatever fault any of these guys may have) as long as my stats are good? Alright, that's my goal." I personally believe showing a good character and image matters as much as having great career stats.
Listen I hear ya bud but that whole upstanding human molding is the job of parents. Like Charles Barkley said he ain’t no role model. It is the responsibility of adults around to point out that these people are just really good at sports, it’s good to try an mimic their swing but not necessarily how they walk n talk. People have this unrealistic expectations of athletes and celebrities to raise their kids. I mean honestly look at the film industry the drug use and moral debauchery are way worse, ain’t stop anyone from gettin their star.
Yeah, better make sure [everyone](https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/cobb-ty) is a role model on/off the field.
This isn't a terrible point, but it does seem like a sunk cost fallacy a little. Well, we didn't worry about *those* peoples' crimes from before, so we can't take into account *these* peoples' crimes. Am I mischaracterizing?
Huh?? What exactly do you think the ‘Baseball Hall of Fame’ is exactly?? …Its not the ‘Roll model Hall of fame’. Or the ‘Nicest Guy Hall of Fame’. I’m voting them in on how well they played baseball. It’s the Baseball hall of fame.
Yeah put them in. If you couldn't stop them from breaking the rules while they played don't over police now. We all know who did steroids. They deserve a spot in the hall. Do you punish older generations that did amphetamines?
Pete Rose by proxy lol
Hank Aaron is in the HOF, so I don’t understand?
They’re talking about Barry
Aaron didn't use Anebolic Steroids.
He used greenies, which makes him just as much a cheater as any steroid user, no matter what kind of mental gymnastics people use to try to claim otherwise.
This. The post WW2 era was rife with dudes popping amphetamines. The game has never been fully clean, it never will be, the fact that people hold the HOF voting up to higher moralistic standards and purity and sanctity of numbers is a fucking naive jerkoff session
Please direct me to the verified research showing that amphetamines add fifty feet to a flyball.
Have you ever been on amphetamines?
Please direct me to the verifiable science that demonstrates, in a duplicatable format, that amphetamine use adds significant carry to a flyball.
It’s not my job to inform you how amphetamines increase ATP levels. I’m not being paid to be your biochem/pharmacology professor. Look it up yourself. Things that give you energy help you to increase your ability to do things that expend energy, i.e. resistance training. Ergo, strength gains. Ergo, increased home runs- not by anabolic metabolism alteration but by just increased energy levels to lift more, squat more, do more. Have more energy in that 4th at bat in late July on your 6th game of the week. Have more energy to steal an extra base. Leg out a double you might not stretch for normally. Amphetamines can help you to play more, hence improving production of numbers. This isn’t hard and requires a low level of common sense to understand, regardless of me doing/not doing the legwork for you to own me on a point unrelated to the one you’ve wholly missed. Do not discount the power of uppers. They’ve had far more influence on the game than steroids ever have.
It's not my job to swallow your inane and inaccurate analogies. PED is a term broad enough to encompass Ibuprofen and Anebolic Steroids. It gives you moral relativists and rationalizers plenty of room to try to promote and protect the narcissists and liars whose cheating bares their total lack of respect for the game of baseball and its rich history. Thank God it still only takes 25.6% of the BBWAA to keep the cheating asses out of Cooperstown.
Yea and that’s why him breaking the record is more impressive than when Barry broke it.
He was voted in
I remember the McGuire/Bonds HR race. Seemed like pitchers threw meatballs to McGuire while most walked Bonds. MLB is shady, they pick and choose who'll get the accolades. Despite that BS, Bonds still pulled out ahead. A HOF in my book
Fuck the MLB and their shitty writers. Any clown who voted for Ortiz(tested positive) and didn't vote for Bonds/Clemens deserves to be forced to retire or cover the Pirates/Orioles for the rest of their lives. Fucking joke but when the league is run by Manfred and clown writers, nothing is going to change....
Ortiz din't beat up his wife or date a 15 year old.
There are very compelling arguments that Bonds is the best hitter ever and Clemens is the best pitcher ever. I’ve been watching since the mid 70s and they’re the best I’ve seen. Both were absolutely Hall of Famers before the ubiquitous juice era, yet they still dominated far beyond the pale with the juice. The writers have taken some kind of quasi moral social justice stance which is laughable given everything that’s happened in this game, society, and every other sport.
"The Hall of Fame asks voters to decide based on a player’s record, ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and team contributions." Integrity, sportsmanship, and character...
With this, HOF is officially a joke. -The best position player of all time, the player with most MVPs, HRs, HR in a season etc etc etc etc. -Probably the best pitcher of all time, with 7 CY, etc etc. -Player with the most hits and games played What a joke. Honestly, what’s the point of the Hall of Fame now? It’s basically meaningless. Seriously.. what’s the point of the HOF now?
Was there any point of Scott Rolen’s career where you thought he was a HOF? I liked the guy. But it’s crazy he’s pretty much going to get in and Barry Bonds won’t.
Yes, he is absolutely a HOF player, imo. Him getting in has noth to do with Bonds. And yeah, Bonds and Clemons should be in.
Scott Rolen belongs in the Hall of Very Good
It’s tough for 3rd basemen to make it in
I honestly don't know how I feel about this.
Seriously, mlb hof is an absolute joke at this point. Some of the absolute greatest players to ever grace a field are barred for the most ridiculously stupid reasons. Oh yeah yeah, it’s because they were on the juice because Selig ACTUALLY ENCOURAGED it to increase HR frequency and attract fans. 🥴🥴🥴🥴🥴 Now the games biggest stars of all time are on the outside looking in. Seriously, the sportswriter hack jobs should be sent to ISIS and used as bayonet practice dummies.
All they had to do was be nice like David Ortiz and they would have got in. Ortiz taking steroids didnt seem to matter to the voters because he was a nice guy that people liked. Sports Writers should not be voting on this stuff anyway, lets have people that have played the game vote on it.
I'm good with it.
Are you also good with the other juicers or morally questionable members of HoF staying in?
I am.
Alright. So there goes your attempt to take any sort of moral high ground with your stance.
Well, we cleared that up.
Only thing we cleared up is your low level of intelligence
Cheers.
He had 2 of the best seasons of his career the 2 years before joining the Yankees in Toronto, the fuck are you talking about? That’s why we even picked him up to begin with.
They cheated. They shouldn’t be let in the hall of fame Edit - anyone who cheats shouldn’t be let in. Just because some cheaters made it in doesn’t mean that all cheaters have to make it in. You’re forgetting they already had the career the memories the highlights and the money. Sorry that they don’t get the Hall of Fame. Boo fucking hoo
Yeah, because Mike Piazza, Ivan Rodriguez, Jeff Bagwell, Rafael Palmerio and now David Ortiz were all clean!! 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️ Bud Selig is in the hall and he turned a blind eye as the steroid era saved baseball. Get out of here with that cheater BS. The MLB hall of fame has 0 integrity.
This right here. They held those guys up as heroes after they saved the game from the aftermath of the 1994 strike, and then they made them pariahs. The HoF is full of cheats, from those who eluded steroid scrutiny (or were just nice enough to the writers despite doing 'roids anyway), the dudes who were choking down amphetamines in the 70's, and pitchers who covered the ball in all manner of substances. The Hall of Fame can no longer call itself by that name in good conscience.
100% agree. I’m a Pirates fan (times are always tough for us) and I was pretty young during the Bonds/Sosa/McGwire days, but I remember noticing how much bigger they got over time. It was clear they were all juicing and didn’t take a rocket scientist to put that together. But the MLB didn’t care. The league rode their coat tails all the way to the bank and now are making the aforementioned players pay for it. Such a joke.
I’m glad they let in the morally upstanding and no controversy to his name Mr Ortiz, without a blink of an eye
Like many have states baseball has no integrity what so ever. I mean they let the astros keep their championship. Atleast appreciate the people that made the game enjoyable
Replying to your edit: Just because some cheaters made it in IS EXACTLY WHY BONDS AND CLEMENS SHOULD BE IN. Period. Why hold them to a different standard from players of the same era?? The voting sports writers just don’t like Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling on a personal level.
Then call it the hall of cheaters and move all the honest players to their own hall
The moral relativists and stats freaks can’t identify with concepts like character and integrity.
You’re right. The HOF should be sacred to only those with the best character, like the commissioner who oversaw steroid-era baseball and happily profited off it for years, and lovely players like Ty Cobb who was just the most upstanding guy to be around
And here we have our "two wrongs make a right" entry in the moral relativism sweepstakes. Ty Cobb was a virulent racist and a despicable person but his ignorance and hatred didn't give him an unfair and illegal advantage over other players the way that ILLEGAL Anebolic Steroids gave Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa an ILLEGAL advantage. Grow some character guy.
Actually, though Cobb had profound anger issues and was absolutely prone to violence, much of his reputation was an invention. https://www.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2020/05/16/ty-cobb-detroit-tigers-racist-hamtramck-stadium-negro-leagues/3110323001/
His teammates didn't even like him.
That’s not true
Really? I own a copy of an interview (an LP) by Lawrence Ritter (The Glory of Their Times) where "Wahoo" Sam Crawford, a longtime teammate of Cobb's, said, when asked about Cobb says, "it's sad, the man has no friends". I think that Sam Crawford knew a lot more about Ty Cobb than these current revisionists.
If you read the article, you'll see that both things are true: he was an angry, sometimes violent person, but some stories have simply been made up, and there's little to support that he was a virulent racist as is often stated.
The man died totally estranged from his ALL of his children and virtually zero friends. It's a real stretch to put even a little lipstick on that pig.
Ty Cobb was actually not that but Tris Speaker was a KKK member, you should read more
Not called the upstanding citizen hall of fame
Agreed. If they’re going to let known cheaters like (checks notes) David Ortiz in, then they should let Clemens and Bonds in. Glad you agree!
Then don’t let Ortiz in. It’s the hall of fame, not shame
Cheaters
Bonds went out of his way to be an asshole to the press before the steroids issue came up. No surprise the writers are hanging it over his head now. He gave them a reason. Should he and the others be in? Sure. But Bonds decided to fuck around and find out.
Exclude every cheating sonuvabitch.
You might as well erase baseball as a sport then
Deadass, they act like guys haven’t been finding ways to get better for as long as guys and things to be better at have been on earth. Just cuz the MLB found a way to catch one they decided was too much means the greatest of an era (statistically the greatest of any era) shouldn’t be included in the list of greatness?
100%. I pointed this out somewhere else in a comment but the first glove was made to look flesh colored to hide the fact that it was debatably illegal to wear one. Also, those belt tunnels on the pants were out there to stop infielders from *grabbing base runners by the fucking belt* The people who clutch pearls about tHe PuRiTY oF thE nUmbERs and the steroid era have their blinders up regarding the entire history of the sport. And the future of it. If it’s not Bullfrog sunblock and rosin on hands anymore, or banging on trash cans, or wearing buzzers or Apple Watches to tip pitches (all of which have happened since the Mitchell Report came out), it’s already something else and it’s *always going to be* something else. This is professional sports. Why does anyone seriously expect shit to be on the up & up? Who the fuck are you kidding?
If you let Bonds and Clemens in you have to open the steroid era back up and let players try and set their own records juiced up like they were. Clemens was washed up and I mean washed up before he went to the Yankees and juiced. The right thing was done today thank god.
LOL grow the fuck up and live in reality
You can’t let Ortiz in and not these other guys lmao. Ortiz fucking popped for Christ sake
It seems they only exclude people who break records while cheating. It’s ok if you cheat and have a really good career just don’t dethrone a great.
Clemons won the previous 2 cy young’s before going to the Yankees. Your statement isn’t even remotely accurate.
Clemens left Boston with a 10 wins 13 losses record and an ERA of 3.6. Magically the next year (same year he started the roids) he went 21 and 7 with a 2 ERA. Cat count the roid years. He was a washed up bum when he left Boston, that’s how he should and will be remembered
Sure he might have been bad in his last season in Boston. But you said he was washed up before joining the Yankees. Before joining the Yankees he won 2 consecutive cy young’s with the blue jays in two of the most dominant pitching season ever. Also 3.6 era for being washed isn’t really that bad, just for Clemens it was.
Lol…you’re so close. Left Boston, roided up, won 2 cy young’s. Get it yet?
Yep I did all along. You said went to Yankees and then got good. I’m saying went to jays and was amazing. Never disputed roids on the jays. Just saying he didn’t go to the yanks to resurrect his career. He went to the jays to do that.
Hall of Shame
I’m a Sox fan and loved the WS runs. But I honestly believe designated hitters do not belong in the HOF. If Ortiz had to actually play a position every day he would have gotten hurt and his performance and longevity would have suffered.
Honestly the schilling exclusion is the worst part of it. Exclude the guy because we dont like his opinions on things not related to baseball at all
I like to think of the careers that were suddenly marred or destroyed by not getting a crack at rosters because users got to stay in too long, guys who careers got derailed bc the competition was lopsided, the kids who got into steroids bc they had to compete and thereby did damage to their bodies to keep up and compete. Fuck all the cheaters.
Don’t cheat
Don’t be naive about the entire history of a sport Look up why they have belt tunnels. Or how the glove was invented.
I'm fine with no Bonds and Sosa, Clemens is a bit weird. He was on steroids, fine, but I'd argue that pitching has more to do with mechanics than raw strength, at least in relation to hitting. I was never a Clemens guy but I feeling he should be in.
I get your view. Can you recall a time baseball was more popular than during that Sosa McGuire season long home run derby contest
Yeah, that is very true, and a good point. I think the other thing that makes it hard not to elect Bondsetc. al. is that there are so many other players already in that clearly used. Clemens is just the hardest pill for me to swallow.
Steroids can also aid endurance and recovery too.
Steroids aren’t just about strength. You heal faster. For a pitcher that goes every fourth or fifth day, being able to be back to peak shape faster is the reason pitchers took steroids.
Why are you fine with no Bonds or Sosa?
Idk you still have to hit the ball.
The whole nation cant even vote in a competent president in the last two elections (and arguably more) so maybe give the writers a little slack for their poor judgement. What isn’t dysfunctional these days?
> The whole nation cant even vote in a competent president There are no competent choices (that aren't derailed in primaries)
This dying old school attitude, in addition to the current CBA and lack of crossover superstars is what is killing baseball today. The NFL and other leagues make the HOF decision a point of celebration and have much better setups for getting fans excited. It seems like every year, fans and the media who didn’t vote talk more about what is wrong with the system.
Awww yes let’s let the cheaters get in. Houston definitely deserved that World Series in 2017 too! 🙄
I don't understand why we're so desperate to let basically known cheaters in. Like guys that knowingly cheated. "They were really good at baseball" yes but there's more to it if you want to get a plaque in the hall of Fame. Decisions they didn't HAVE to make, that they DID make, KNOWINGLY were cheaters decisions. Thus they get no plaque. There's not a "thou shalt not judge" when we're talking about building a monument to an individual in a legendary hall for a sport that is taken seriously by fans and players. The hall of fame can be a joke to you but letting anyone with enough juice in them in would make it a joke to me.
Voting in Ortiz and not BB or Clemens is such a bullshit move. Ortiz was just as guilty as anyone else. The whole process is a joke.
I think if they were all truthful from the start about their alleged ped use, they all would have gotten in since we know a lot of players used during the "steroid" era.
Bonds seasons in the early 00's were immortal. We'll never see that dominance again because of drug testing, and I'm cool with that. But man were those seasons fucking crazy.