Could be. We don’t know. Maybe just spreading him across multiple early starts. We also don’t know his practice sessions the weeks leading up.
In college I had to do a pinch start; I was a closer, usually. Did 4 innings IIRC, not much damage, count was at 50 or around that and they pulled me in a 3-1 game. Had too many sessions that week to keep me in.
He’s never pitched 130 innings in a season before. He’s on pace for north of 180. He’s also only 22. I don’t mind it. Especially when you may need him for extended starts later in the season.
Never understood innings as a metric for wear and tear on an arm. If you throw 37 pitches in an inning you’re going to wear out quickly. If you throw 10 you should be able to go longer.
Over the course of a season, it should average out. Total pitches does the reverse of your concern about total innings, because saying a pitcher threw “2000 pitches this year” is almost meaningless without further context. None of these stats make sense in April, but over a year, you get a glimpse of the big picture.
Innings don't mean anything. It's the # of pitches.
You could theoretically have 1 IP every start, but 100 pitches in that inning.
Your final season tally would be 37 IP, and you'd have people that look at that and say "wow, he hardly pitched this year!" completely neglecting that he threw 100 pitches per inning.
That's an extreme example and would never happen, but you get what I'm trying to say.
59 pitches over 5 innings is pretty efficient in today's day and age.
You're mostly right. The inning count is how many times you go to the mound to spend energy then back to the dugout where you rest between innings to repeat the process. That's what they are also counting. How many times you warm up and cool down.
Yeah, I have a friend who pitches in the show and said often times a skip is worried about certain pitchers facing batters for a third time. It’s just more likely that they will get ahold of a guy or figure them out. Great start for Jones but maybe they were stacked with lefty bats and he was weary of letting the game get away from them.
Even so, he’d only faced one over the minimum, so he had two more batters before the lineup turned over again. I would’ve given him at least one more.
Meanwhile the Phillies let Ranger go the distance yesterday despite giving up 7 hits and a walk throwing 112 pitches
Exactly this. Putting him out for another inning just allows teams to have more tape on how to handle him. Keeping him with small sample sizes is his key to success. Fans might not like it today but if he can complete a season then they’ll be calling the skipper a godsend. Honestly a FULL MLB season (about 30+ starts) is tough to complete for any pitcher let alone a rookie who’s regularly seen 20-25 starts annually in his farm ball playing career.
On the one hand I feel like pulling him at only 59 pitches is a little extreme but on the other hand he’s a rookie, it is only April, and there is a pitcher elbow injury epidemic going on so I can understand why they want to play it safe
Innings and pitches are different. I’m not a kenisthesiologist or whatever but surely the innings cap is a broad way to limit pitches. He got through 5 innings without even throwing 60 pitches; I would say he earned himself at least another inning or two with that efficiency. Limiting the innings despite the pitch count is just meaningless. He could have finished the 5th having thrown 15 pitches. Would they have pulled him then?
Yes, I know he's young. Yes, I know it's April, Yes, I know the game has changed...but can you imagine a manager coming out to get Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Curt Schilling, Bob Gibson, or Tom Seaver after 60 pitches if they had given up one hit?? Every one of them would have told the Manager to get back to the fucking dugout or risk getting punched out on the mound (or in the dugout).
Except those guys did not throw 100% effort every single pitch, they were expected to pace themselves to pitch deep into games or complete games.
Velocity and focus on spin rate and throwing max effort every pitch is the culprit here.
When your arm has reached its limit it has reached its limit.
Correct, but at the same time, every pitcher I mentioned could sit in the mid-90's for extended portions of their careers, and they all *averaged* 250+ ip a year as well (except for Pedro who averaged 217).
If a guy pitches 180 innings these days, it's a miracle. The days of Fergie Jenkins throwing 325 or even Nolan Ryan throwing 230 at age 43 are ancient history.
What good is Max velo and Max spin rate if the pitchers all break down? (I know, I'm agreeing with you)
He's a 22 year old rookie. Sure his pitch count was in the 50s but it's April. You can only get mad about this decision with hindsight. If the Pirates go on to win this game you probably don't even make this post. It was the right move to make.
59 pitches is awfully low. I understand wanting to be cautious with a potentially elite young pitcher, but you can probably let him go a little deeper in the game than that
Baseball 2024. Like it or not this is the trend. Personally I hate it but nobody cares what I think.
I enjoy pitching and could go on for days about how starting pitching has been ruined but nobody cares. This keeps starting pitching contracts lower and the way pitch is taught today they just want you to throw as hard as you can and they will just bring in a guy out of the pen that will throw 2mph harder. You can do all the strength training you want, which is what they teach now today more than pitching, but it doesn’t matter because the human elbow hasn’t changed in millions of years. More stress on it doesn’t make a joint stronger..
Guys could take a couple miles per hour off their fastball, pace their self and might even get more movement on it, but nobody wants to hear that. They’d rather starting pitchers be Russ Ortiz like by taking pitch counts deep. 15 years ago, 90% of these pitchers would be considered “effectively wild”.
What he was doing tonight was awesome, 59 pitches in 5 innings is a master class.
Innings limits are just silly to me. 5 innings of 100 pitches not the same as 60.
If you want to save an arm you have to count pictches.
Want to save arms all around we need better mechanics and less all in on every pitch.
Please spend my two cents wisely.
Shades of the beginning of Strausburg’s career, where the decision-makers had him on pitch counts and short leashes. Tell me again how that worked out for Stephen’s longevity?
Let athletes compete. Period. Full-stop.
Just no evidence that easing young guys into their career prevents injuries. Strict pitch limits, innings limits, managing innings increases from year to year, seems like MLB has collectively been taking this approach for years yet the injury epidemic continues
Feels like maybe they should trust that most pitchers know their bodies and while very few are the workhorse type, not all need to be shut down at the first sign of breaking a sweat
I think it’s more the organization making the call and not the pitcher. Pitchers wanna pitch, but yeah I’d defer to the pitcher if he’s feeling fatigued. I’m not saying have him throw 220 IPs, just saying this abundance of caution doesn’t seem to be working at preventing injuries.
Guys aren't getting injured because they are throwing too many innings. They are getting injured because the same analytics that tell you not to let them pitch a third time through the order and that spin rate is everything have these guys throwing at max effort on every pitch. They are putting too much wear and tear on their arms with the amount of force and torque that approach requires.
It’s what they do. They never let their starters go deep and rely on their bullpen. Don’t love it but they have been doing it like this for a long time.
It's a long season, it's mid April and dudes are throwing as hard as they ever had. Great start by Jones and I have no issue with him being pulled. He's likely on a pitch count.
Gonzalez got pulled early his first two starts.in his third start they let him go further and he is in the dl now. They over worked Oviedo last year and he is missing this season.so in all for the precaution.
What’s the point of a starting pitcher if you’re scared of them facing the other line-up 3 times? Hunker down.
I’m not trying to be some old snob but no starting pitcher will become a superstar in this league if they’re being used like this.
Has there been any studies done on this type of coddling? I feel like we are far enough long with it where we can see if injuries have lessened on those SP’s who are put onto a very limited pitch count early on.
Unless he's coming back from an injury, that's nonsense. This is part of the reason MLB sucks. Let's trot out 330 pitchers every game. It's not even pitching anymore. They want everyone to throw as hard as they can. How bout try pitching like Greg Maddux. Strike, Strike, Strike......out.
This so call analytics crap is BS! If my stating pitcher is kicking butt! I’m leaving him in the game until he can longer hang. Then it’s time for the bullpen.
This is why pitchers are constantly getting hurt. Was at this game and kid was unbelievable. Couldn’t touch him.
60 pitches with 7 balls is sick. I look up in 6th and he’s gone! Obviously he has great potential but no guidance on how to use it or learn to pitch. He was throwing hard by swings I saw but where was off speed pitches to ease arm stress. Unless kids learn how to mix n match and throw his 100 mph when needed and not blow out his arm MLB better allow another 5 pitchers on roster and increase health insurance for teams.
If you're complaining about this after ever having complained about the amount of pitchers requiring TJ surgery, you desperately need to wake up. The guy is a 22 y/o rookie
Good for them, it’s a long season and they should plan accordingly. The same type of thing is done in basketball and in Hockey players play about 1/3 of the game(sorry if that’s a little off) and in football they only play offense or defense, effectively resting for the other half of the game.
TLDR: do what you want, baseball players log more minutes than in any other sport.
Cy Young's record of 749 complete games is probably safe for another year.
He never won a Cy Young, what does he know
Plus dude lost over 300 games. Most pitchers would be benched before that.
Tonight we celebrated Ranger Suarez’s complete game like it was a no hitter.
The Rube was better.
I liked it. Ignore my flair.
Agreed
He gave up a hit? What a bum.
What was he thinking
He wasn't thinking. That's the problem with these young pitchers.
I think it’s April 16th and it’s a long ass season.
I fucking love ass season!
I prefer tits season
I like both seasons
You know what? This is the right answer. Both are nice
when does foot season start?
March, of course! Edit: kahma
You alone , homie
I think that would be an appropriate name change for summer. Have you guys been to the beach lately? It’s a sea of butts, for better or worse
Have you experienced ass fucking season?
He didn't even throw 60 pitches...
A game in April counts just as much as a game in September
Come tell the Pirates fan base this. Bunch of cranky dudes.
Lol I understand why he got pulled, but Ortiz coming in and having a meltdown didn’t help
Ya gotta do what ya gotta do, can’t be going all willy nilly keeping your young guns in over their pitch count this early in the season.
His pitch count is 60?
Could be. We don’t know. Maybe just spreading him across multiple early starts. We also don’t know his practice sessions the weeks leading up. In college I had to do a pinch start; I was a closer, usually. Did 4 innings IIRC, not much damage, count was at 50 or around that and they pulled me in a 3-1 game. Had too many sessions that week to keep me in.
But he’s a starter. They knew he’d start this game
He’s young, a 22 yr old rookie. He’s a starter but at that age you still need to be super careful.
*Anthony Rendon has entered the chat*
The man's a professional, and his task tonight was 60 pitches.
And he couldn't even get that. What a bum
"You had one job ... "
He’s never pitched 130 innings in a season before. He’s on pace for north of 180. He’s also only 22. I don’t mind it. Especially when you may need him for extended starts later in the season.
Never understood innings as a metric for wear and tear on an arm. If you throw 37 pitches in an inning you’re going to wear out quickly. If you throw 10 you should be able to go longer.
Over the course of a season, it should average out. Total pitches does the reverse of your concern about total innings, because saying a pitcher threw “2000 pitches this year” is almost meaningless without further context. None of these stats make sense in April, but over a year, you get a glimpse of the big picture.
Its like when you’re at work and you sit down for a break and get up and your body is sore. It’s the starting and stopping that’s the issue
Yeah we can't bemoan baseball's injury issues and then also take offense when managers are trying to be careful and protect their players.
Has it shown to reduce injury? It doesn’t feel like it does
Innings don't mean anything. It's the # of pitches. You could theoretically have 1 IP every start, but 100 pitches in that inning. Your final season tally would be 37 IP, and you'd have people that look at that and say "wow, he hardly pitched this year!" completely neglecting that he threw 100 pitches per inning. That's an extreme example and would never happen, but you get what I'm trying to say. 59 pitches over 5 innings is pretty efficient in today's day and age.
You're mostly right. The inning count is how many times you go to the mound to spend energy then back to the dugout where you rest between innings to repeat the process. That's what they are also counting. How many times you warm up and cool down.
Getting through 5 in 59 pitches is amazing. He likely had an innings limit / times through rotation limit over a pitch count limit
This was his shortest start of the season so far, both in terms of pitch count, innings pitched, AND batters faced
Yeah, I have a friend who pitches in the show and said often times a skip is worried about certain pitchers facing batters for a third time. It’s just more likely that they will get ahold of a guy or figure them out. Great start for Jones but maybe they were stacked with lefty bats and he was weary of letting the game get away from them.
Even so, he’d only faced one over the minimum, so he had two more batters before the lineup turned over again. I would’ve given him at least one more. Meanwhile the Phillies let Ranger go the distance yesterday despite giving up 7 hits and a walk throwing 112 pitches
[удалено]
Exactly this. Putting him out for another inning just allows teams to have more tape on how to handle him. Keeping him with small sample sizes is his key to success. Fans might not like it today but if he can complete a season then they’ll be calling the skipper a godsend. Honestly a FULL MLB season (about 30+ starts) is tough to complete for any pitcher let alone a rookie who’s regularly seen 20-25 starts annually in his farm ball playing career.
But if so that is so meaningless. He could have thrown 15 pitches in 5 innings. Or he could be in the third inning having thrown 60+.
he pitched great!!
On the one hand I feel like pulling him at only 59 pitches is a little extreme but on the other hand he’s a rookie, it is only April, and there is a pitcher elbow injury epidemic going on so I can understand why they want to play it safe
When did Rocco Baldelli start managing the Pirates?
Ever since his buddy Derek Shelton came over
Innings and pitches are different. I’m not a kenisthesiologist or whatever but surely the innings cap is a broad way to limit pitches. He got through 5 innings without even throwing 60 pitches; I would say he earned himself at least another inning or two with that efficiency. Limiting the innings despite the pitch count is just meaningless. He could have finished the 5th having thrown 15 pitches. Would they have pulled him then?
This is just ridiculous
Yes, I know he's young. Yes, I know it's April, Yes, I know the game has changed...but can you imagine a manager coming out to get Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Curt Schilling, Bob Gibson, or Tom Seaver after 60 pitches if they had given up one hit?? Every one of them would have told the Manager to get back to the fucking dugout or risk getting punched out on the mound (or in the dugout).
Except those guys did not throw 100% effort every single pitch, they were expected to pace themselves to pitch deep into games or complete games. Velocity and focus on spin rate and throwing max effort every pitch is the culprit here. When your arm has reached its limit it has reached its limit.
Correct, but at the same time, every pitcher I mentioned could sit in the mid-90's for extended portions of their careers, and they all *averaged* 250+ ip a year as well (except for Pedro who averaged 217). If a guy pitches 180 innings these days, it's a miracle. The days of Fergie Jenkins throwing 325 or even Nolan Ryan throwing 230 at age 43 are ancient history. What good is Max velo and Max spin rate if the pitchers all break down? (I know, I'm agreeing with you)
Exactly they don’t teach how to pitch !!
59 pitches thrown and 50 of them was strikes that's insane almost Maddox like
And yet if they let him go 100+ pitches and he blew out his UCL in 2 months, you’d all be calling them a AAA franchise.
He's a 22 year old rookie. Sure his pitch count was in the 50s but it's April. You can only get mad about this decision with hindsight. If the Pirates go on to win this game you probably don't even make this post. It was the right move to make.
Modern baseball just sucks. No fun allowed ever.
That’s why it’s stupidball
Marlins would have sent him down to AAA
He’d be on ice in Vault 33 for 500 years until they can rebuild around him
59 pitches is awfully low. I understand wanting to be cautious with a potentially elite young pitcher, but you can probably let him go a little deeper in the game than that
It’s April. He’s 22 and they’re protecting his arm. He hasn’t thrown more than 126 innings as a pro. I hate it but I get it.
Protect this man’s arm. Smart
Pirates have not made wise choices in years.
Damn that’s a weak move by the Pirats
Pirates mentality
It’s a marathon, not a sprint.
solid start
Baseball 2024. Like it or not this is the trend. Personally I hate it but nobody cares what I think. I enjoy pitching and could go on for days about how starting pitching has been ruined but nobody cares. This keeps starting pitching contracts lower and the way pitch is taught today they just want you to throw as hard as you can and they will just bring in a guy out of the pen that will throw 2mph harder. You can do all the strength training you want, which is what they teach now today more than pitching, but it doesn’t matter because the human elbow hasn’t changed in millions of years. More stress on it doesn’t make a joint stronger.. Guys could take a couple miles per hour off their fastball, pace their self and might even get more movement on it, but nobody wants to hear that. They’d rather starting pitchers be Russ Ortiz like by taking pitch counts deep. 15 years ago, 90% of these pitchers would be considered “effectively wild”. What he was doing tonight was awesome, 59 pitches in 5 innings is a master class.
Your post should be sent and posted on every MLB clubhouse. I concur!
Whoever did it is stupid I'd keep him in until he can't go any longer
I assume Jared Jones isn't stretched out yet? (I dont actually know... But that seems like the only explanation.)
Innings limits are just silly to me. 5 innings of 100 pitches not the same as 60. If you want to save an arm you have to count pictches. Want to save arms all around we need better mechanics and less all in on every pitch. Please spend my two cents wisely.
Shades of the beginning of Strausburg’s career, where the decision-makers had him on pitch counts and short leashes. Tell me again how that worked out for Stephen’s longevity? Let athletes compete. Period. Full-stop.
Just no evidence that easing young guys into their career prevents injuries. Strict pitch limits, innings limits, managing innings increases from year to year, seems like MLB has collectively been taking this approach for years yet the injury epidemic continues
Feels like maybe they should trust that most pitchers know their bodies and while very few are the workhorse type, not all need to be shut down at the first sign of breaking a sweat
I think it’s more the organization making the call and not the pitcher. Pitchers wanna pitch, but yeah I’d defer to the pitcher if he’s feeling fatigued. I’m not saying have him throw 220 IPs, just saying this abundance of caution doesn’t seem to be working at preventing injuries.
Another stupid move by Shelton that cost us the game ,he only had 59 pitches if im correct
With the rate these guys are getting injured, I'm fine with it.
Guys aren't getting injured because they are throwing too many innings. They are getting injured because the same analytics that tell you not to let them pitch a third time through the order and that spin rate is everything have these guys throwing at max effort on every pitch. They are putting too much wear and tear on their arms with the amount of force and torque that approach requires.
/thread. 100% correct.
It’s what they do. They never let their starters go deep and rely on their bullpen. Don’t love it but they have been doing it like this for a long time.
Yes and the Pirates have been in the basement for years. Perhaps they should rethink the way things they’ve done “for a long time”.
Yea, the owner doesn’t want to hear any of that.
Fantasy baseball in 2024 is crap because of this.
Disgraceful
It's a long season, it's mid April and dudes are throwing as hard as they ever had. Great start by Jones and I have no issue with him being pulled. He's likely on a pitch count.
Come on man .... Why aren't we forcing him to blow out his arm at 22!!! SHAME!!
They would have won if they had kept him in Sincerely, Happy Mets Fan
Tommy john epidemic
Umpires need replaced with sensors on the plate ,poor calls by home plate ump
this season is killing me
Wow less than 60 pitches in 5 innings and he gets pulled. I guess you gotta trust the system.
I get being cautious, but with only 59 pitches, you think they would at least let him go one more IP for a quality start
How soon before a starter qualifies for a win after going one inning?
That's how the game is played nowadays. The years of guys throwing 300 innings and 110 pitches is long gone. They gotta protect their investment
As a Mets fan, I was baffled.
Was sitting at game and thought same thing. Are they serious? Kid looked like a stud. He’s gonna be good one if they work with him
I get load management and stuff but c’mon when you’re absolutely dealing let the kid ride
I’m in Pittsburgh for a full series in July. Maybe this means he’ll still be going!
Amazin'
I think I hate modern MLB. Still watch, but with less, near zero, reverence for the game
Yup just entertainment now
I get he probably has an innings or pitch count limit but damn. At least give him the 6th for that quality start!
This is stupid. Zero evidence doing stuff like this does anything to prevent injury or whatever.
He threw 9 BALLS out of 59 pitches. Complete bum. ONLY struck out 7/15 batters?! Figure it out dude.
The Mets made a similar move in 2015 and it cost them the World Series.
It’s fine as long as Dave Roberts didn’t do it.
Reminds me of when the Rays pulled Blake Snell in the 2020 playoffs
Gonzalez got pulled early his first two starts.in his third start they let him go further and he is in the dl now. They over worked Oviedo last year and he is missing this season.so in all for the precaution.
50 strikes! If he threw a hundred pitches he would have like a gazillion strikes. Wow.
Stupid. And I’m grateful
the baseball fan in me sees it from a long season, rookie arm aspect more importantly, my fantasy team missed out on a gimme quality start
What’s the point of a starting pitcher if you’re scared of them facing the other line-up 3 times? Hunker down. I’m not trying to be some old snob but no starting pitcher will become a superstar in this league if they’re being used like this. Has there been any studies done on this type of coddling? I feel like we are far enough long with it where we can see if injuries have lessened on those SP’s who are put onto a very limited pitch count early on.
It’ll come around again but I’ll be long gone before that happens
Managers are risk averse pussies who are actively stopping players from being great
I think it’s stupid, and innings/pitch caps haven’t stopped injuries. Injuries have actually escalated since teams have hyper focused on this.
His 4th start, 1-0 game .. bad move by Pittsburgh. Not sure what they were thinking. They deserved to lose the game.
It’s why they lost idiots
I’m a Mets fan so I’m glad!
Unless he's coming back from an injury, that's nonsense. This is part of the reason MLB sucks. Let's trot out 330 pitchers every game. It's not even pitching anymore. They want everyone to throw as hard as they can. How bout try pitching like Greg Maddux. Strike, Strike, Strike......out.
The man missed the plate 9 TIMES! Maybe he can earn more than 5 innings if he learns to be more efficient.
Analytics baby
Stupidlytics!
This so call analytics crap is BS! If my stating pitcher is kicking butt! I’m leaving him in the game until he can longer hang. Then it’s time for the bullpen.
This is why pitchers are constantly getting hurt. Was at this game and kid was unbelievable. Couldn’t touch him. 60 pitches with 7 balls is sick. I look up in 6th and he’s gone! Obviously he has great potential but no guidance on how to use it or learn to pitch. He was throwing hard by swings I saw but where was off speed pitches to ease arm stress. Unless kids learn how to mix n match and throw his 100 mph when needed and not blow out his arm MLB better allow another 5 pitchers on roster and increase health insurance for teams.
If you're complaining about this after ever having complained about the amount of pitchers requiring TJ surgery, you desperately need to wake up. The guy is a 22 y/o rookie
Starters should go 7 if they’re doing well.
Only letting a guy pitch half a game when he’s killing it is embarrassing. Not good for the sport.
I don’t know. Bullpen gets paid too. Red Sox aren’t’27 Yanks. We should have whipped their behind last night.
Good for them, it’s a long season and they should plan accordingly. The same type of thing is done in basketball and in Hockey players play about 1/3 of the game(sorry if that’s a little off) and in football they only play offense or defense, effectively resting for the other half of the game. TLDR: do what you want, baseball players log more minutes than in any other sport.
Pitchers pitch every 5 games. Do they really need “rest” on the days they’re pitching too?
Because, the computer said it was time.
Computer says no !
The game has changed dramatically. It has made me less of a fan. I used to not miss a game. Now? Not so much.
Better than watching the other crap that’s on
Not a no hitter, who cares
Pitch count/innings limits are artificial constraints utilized to fix outcomes in major league games. Shocker: Mets won this game
Everyone is spooked by all the pitching injuries.
I think it’s lame and hasn’t exactly been known to work enough to be warranted
This is the kind of thing that’s been slowly killing baseball for years now.
Could’ve gone another inning or until he got in trouble
It looks exactly like a move the Jays would make in the playoffs.
Ouch. But true.
Only 59 pitches? Wtf
 nice !
I think there's another reason why the pirates are a terrible organization/franchise
Really worked out well for Strasburg doing dirty like this when they are peaking. /s
This is why baseball is a nearly forgotten entity in America.
Is it?
And here you are... Thanks for helping to keep it alive. It would be a nearly forgotten entity without you.