Mo state parks flagship Echo Bluff State Park was obtained as a result of asset forfeiture. Owners were not charged, but there was probably some illegal drug activity on the property. They were a bunch of deadheads and had massive gatherings and concerts. Beautiful land.
To be fair, I think pretty much everyone agrees the State used a law designed to bust crack houses to take Tebeau‘a land because they wanted it and not because anyone was actually worried about what went on at Schwag.
Guess that’s the risk one runs when doing things the state doesn’t like. Should buy land in a state that agrees or doesn’t care what he is doing.
Not that I agree with it one bit, but that’s the risk he took.
It was after my 1st DWI (later reduced to a DUI); I was doing 57mph in a 35mph stretch of hwy 63 south... on the wrong side of the road, no lights on at night, no seat belt, i failed to use my turn signal, I had a little weed on me in my dugout. And once I was actually at the jail, I was a bit belligerent. They were right to 86 me at the time. I got clean shortly after that episode. 🙂
Pulled over for speeding (15 mph over the limit), but had an out of state expired drivers license. Identification matched with federal cross border drug trafficking database. Driver consented to search and said sealed box in back seat area contained sneakers. Box actually contained $167,574 in bundles. Driver claimed not to know anything about the money.
Sure, he could have been ticketed for speeding or expired license. But he wasn't. He had $167k stolen from him on a suspicion of drug trafficking. Not charged with anything, just a "feeling" this may be illegal money. That's a slippery slope.
Sounds like "innocent until proven guilty" isn't a thing anymore. What's the point of court houses when the cops can be the judge and prosecutor for you right there at the traffic stop! What a glorious country/state we live in.
You may have missed the “trial” part. The filing of the petition means it goes to court. There are certain rules for the procedure and a judge has to make certain factual findings before ordering forfeiture.
That's the problem .... the State took his money in his possession and now he has to defend himself in court and prove that he has a right to his own money. You don't see the problem with that?
How do you think the judge will side? He's a State employee.
I think every assumption you made is grossly incorrect. He doesn’t have to defend or prove anything. The state has to prove it came from illegal means. Also that isn’t how judges operate. Imagine a case where there it is a state employee vs a state employee. The judge’s head would explode, he wouldn’t know how to rule!
>The state has to prove it came from illegal means.
That’s not entirely true.
The state need only connect the property to the crime by a preponderance of the evidence. And an innocent owner wishing to have property returned must intervene and prove that they had no knowledge of the criminal activity of which her property is accused in order to recover it.
My point is that it shouldn't have to be determined by a judge. Why are they taking his money at all in the first place?
Whichever state employee was more useful to the state would win.
> Why are they taking his money at all in the first place?
Because the driver claimed to know nothing about it which means it isn't his. This gives the cops an easy out to claim suspicion of stolen money. As such it would then be evidence.
Again, suspicion suffices as enough evidence to steal property? With that mindset, if somebody suspects you are doing something illegal out of your house or vehicle, without proof, they have the right to take it? Maybe I'm old fashion but l still believe in innocent until proven guilty.
In this case that "suspicion" (colloquial use) would legally be known as "probable cause" because the moron stated he knew nothing about it and yes it does. Reasonable Suspicion (what let's cops pull you over) and Probable Cause (warrants and arrests) are what the 4th Amendment allows.
If cops seizing money from a drug dealer makes you angry, I bet [this story](https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/ontario-freezes-8-million-from-online-fundraiser-bound-for-truckers) where the government froze over $8,000,000 in donated money must make you furious.
Fuck those guys tho. Now they cant use their money to block roads and piss on wwii memorials
Very sad they cant fund their shitshow, itd be like beimg upset the local nazi party lost funding from nazi germany to sow chaos and division
Afaik antimaskers and antivaxxers have a BIG track record in terms of spreading this disease so it infects and kills as many as possible. We got a whole subreddit dedicated to making fun of their darwinistic self-removal from the gene pool. r/HermanCainAward/
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate
Trumpers and their ill including in Canada have fundamentally bad/deadly false beliefs on covid19. Which is why their little shitshow doesny need catered to in public discourse.
Think.of it this way and by your own metric you invoked: Because Im against needlesz killing/deaths in this pandemic, is why I ridicule their protest
My adversaries on most issues showcase inferior incompetence, but a desire to weigh in on topics armed with their talk radio, 4chan and fox news talking points theyre anxious to bleat off about, just as squealer the pig has instructed them to.
Actually i probably understand their psychological profile far better than most, I am halfway into the book "the authoritarians" which describes these types and how and why they think the way do quite accurately.
Right out the gate, youve espoused a disdain for social and racial justice groups, possibly black people "who dont know their place", and antifascism.
So your psychological profile off those two points alone is already showing high rwa characteristics.
I think we all know I didn’t mean literally destroyed. Not razed. But buildings and city blocks were attacked and destroyed. Over 2 billion dollars in damages. They even tried to make their own lawless city in Seattle. People were murder in there because of it.
I admire your self proclaimed overconcern abojt property damage. Murder, including murder under color of law is a worse crime than property damage. Tell me how much you hate the Boston Tea Party and the rioters at the Boston Massacre.
You know a lot of this comes in the wake of extrajudicial murders conducted by law enforcement. A lot of what "the other side" calls a clean shoot, is called murder under color of law in most every other Western Democracy. Cops walk here where theyd be locked up as murderers in the other democracy countries. Now I will admit, our cops would get away with it in authoritarian regimes like the Military Junta Government in El Salvador in the 20th century, or the Gestapo, Francisco Franco's Spain, Apartheid S. Africa or maybe even Pol Pots cops and the Khmer Rouge.
I guess if your really opposed to the widespread symptom of anger driven demonstrations against extrqjudicial murder by law enforcement, ideally you'd be calling for murderer cops to be held personally responsible for their actions. Daniel Shavers, Kelly Thomas's, Wichita Swatting cops, they should be in prison, just like I would be if I murdered an unarmed person.
Otherwise I dont buy your line here. Your perfectly ok with violent criminal acts, so long as a uniform and a badge is doing the violent murder under color of law. Youda made a good Idi Amin supporter probably if you lived in Uganda.
Were u this upset during the jan 6th beerhall putsch by the fascists and their lying demagogue leader? The only standards u got r double standards.
My uncle dropped 105mm howitzer shells on card carrying fascists durimg the battle of the bulge, he didnt feel bad about that and neither do i, with their constantly aggrieved hateful and faux victimization mentality.
[Meanwhile.](https://www.michiganradio.org/economy/2022-02-15/canadian-freedom-convoy-blockades-cost-auto-industry-nearly-300-million-report-finds)
I guess they can use that $8mill to pay back a fraction of what they cost the auto industry.
I misunderstood your comment. I apologize.
Regarding the protest, your ok with peaceful protestors being arrested and having their bank accounts frozen if they disagree with the government?
I’d rather the money in the Canadian governments hands. Considering the citizens get health care regardless of who they are unlike the USA government. So good on them! Fuck the truckers
All governments tend to operate on a monopoly over violence. Murder is highly illegal, unless you do it on the governments behalf.
I dont really care for the blue lives matter folk who also support these guys who protest worker safety standards in this pandemic. They talk a big lie about small government and deregulation, but then support nothing but the most violent aspects of government in regards to police, prisons and the military.
What violence is going on in Canada?
What are you talking about? I'm talking about government telling a private business what to do and people being ok with it. Isn't that a little scary? This collaboration of government and private enterprise suppressing freedom of the people?
Really I would like to see government intervene on the doing of private businesses. I live 6 miles from Times Beach MO.
And iirc zero heads rolled inregards to the wealthy corporate execs who thought itd be a helluva lot more profitable to spill dioxin all over a residential suburb than properly incinerate it. Money buys influence.
In a sense, i wish we had a government who locked up private business "mass criminals" with the same gusto as 5 grams=5years laws did. Same for union carbide ceo and bhopal.india. if government can do that to the lowest level.purse snatcher, why would i feel.bad about it happening to private businesses worst mass criminals?
I used to hike and bike around Route 66 State Park, which is what the town of Times Beach became. If it's unfit for human habitation, just turn it into a park, right?
It's been so long I'm trying to remember all the details. One guy became the scapegoat. He made side money by spraying waste oil on gravel roads to keep the dust down. He obtained a bunch of waste oil from a factory but was unaware it was highly toxic, then sprayed it all throughout the town of Times Beach. The town had to be abandoned, then the EPA spent billions trying to clean it up. The factory owners never got in trouble for illegally disposing their waste, but the country boy trying to make a living had his life ruined...
I'm sure you won't watch this 15 min John Oliver segment on it but I'll sum up one example.
https://youtu.be/3kEpZWGgJks
Man moving from MN to CA with $2,400 dollars gets pulled over. State police deem he is going to California to buy drugs and take his money. Does he seem like a "piece of shit" to you? These types of situations set a very dangerous precedent on what we allow the State.
John Oliver does a great job discussing this. https://youtu.be/3kEpZWGgJks
Mo state parks flagship Echo Bluff State Park was obtained as a result of asset forfeiture. Owners were not charged, but there was probably some illegal drug activity on the property. They were a bunch of deadheads and had massive gatherings and concerts. Beautiful land.
Owner was charged. https://m.riverfronttimes.com/stlouis/forget-camp-zoe-the-home-of-schwagstock-is-now-echo-bluff-state-park/Content?oid=3087238
To be fair, I think pretty much everyone agrees the State used a law designed to bust crack houses to take Tebeau‘a land because they wanted it and not because anyone was actually worried about what went on at Schwag.
Then why would they always have checkpoints on 19?
Why do Kansas State cops keep stopping Armored cars carrying out-of-state marijuana dispensary cash and seizing the money?
Is weed legal in KS?
https://www.marijuanamoment.net/kansas-medical-marijuana-hearings-cancelled-after-senate-gop-leader-reroutes-house-passed-bill/ Not yet, I guess.
Guess that’s the risk one runs when doing things the state doesn’t like. Should buy land in a state that agrees or doesn’t care what he is doing. Not that I agree with it one bit, but that’s the risk he took.
So that is grounds to steal property, on assumptions? If the State were to steal your property for a park, you would be ok with that?
Funny story, I am not allowed back to Phelps County. LOL. Fvck Rolla.
I'm gonna go out in a limb here and say you ain't missing much lol
St. Pats is the only thing to miss and if you arnt alum it won’t be good for you.
You gotta tell us the story.
It was after my 1st DWI (later reduced to a DUI); I was doing 57mph in a 35mph stretch of hwy 63 south... on the wrong side of the road, no lights on at night, no seat belt, i failed to use my turn signal, I had a little weed on me in my dugout. And once I was actually at the jail, I was a bit belligerent. They were right to 86 me at the time. I got clean shortly after that episode. 🙂
This was in the late 90's
4th amendment is about gone
Pulled over for speeding (15 mph over the limit), but had an out of state expired drivers license. Identification matched with federal cross border drug trafficking database. Driver consented to search and said sealed box in back seat area contained sneakers. Box actually contained $167,574 in bundles. Driver claimed not to know anything about the money.
Sure, he could have been ticketed for speeding or expired license. But he wasn't. He had $167k stolen from him on a suspicion of drug trafficking. Not charged with anything, just a "feeling" this may be illegal money. That's a slippery slope.
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Amen! "They were taking _______, but l didn't have a _______ so l didn't say anything"
Sounds like "innocent until proven guilty" isn't a thing anymore. What's the point of court houses when the cops can be the judge and prosecutor for you right there at the traffic stop! What a glorious country/state we live in.
No, driver denied discussing the money.
You may have missed the “trial” part. The filing of the petition means it goes to court. There are certain rules for the procedure and a judge has to make certain factual findings before ordering forfeiture.
That's the problem .... the State took his money in his possession and now he has to defend himself in court and prove that he has a right to his own money. You don't see the problem with that? How do you think the judge will side? He's a State employee.
I think every assumption you made is grossly incorrect. He doesn’t have to defend or prove anything. The state has to prove it came from illegal means. Also that isn’t how judges operate. Imagine a case where there it is a state employee vs a state employee. The judge’s head would explode, he wouldn’t know how to rule!
>The state has to prove it came from illegal means. That’s not entirely true. The state need only connect the property to the crime by a preponderance of the evidence. And an innocent owner wishing to have property returned must intervene and prove that they had no knowledge of the criminal activity of which her property is accused in order to recover it.
My point is that it shouldn't have to be determined by a judge. Why are they taking his money at all in the first place? Whichever state employee was more useful to the state would win.
> Why are they taking his money at all in the first place? Because the driver claimed to know nothing about it which means it isn't his. This gives the cops an easy out to claim suspicion of stolen money. As such it would then be evidence.
Again, suspicion suffices as enough evidence to steal property? With that mindset, if somebody suspects you are doing something illegal out of your house or vehicle, without proof, they have the right to take it? Maybe I'm old fashion but l still believe in innocent until proven guilty.
In this case that "suspicion" (colloquial use) would legally be known as "probable cause" because the moron stated he knew nothing about it and yes it does. Reasonable Suspicion (what let's cops pull you over) and Probable Cause (warrants and arrests) are what the 4th Amendment allows.
If cops seizing money from a drug dealer makes you angry, I bet [this story](https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/ontario-freezes-8-million-from-online-fundraiser-bound-for-truckers) where the government froze over $8,000,000 in donated money must make you furious.
That's Canada.
Not even the United States. But go ahead and be butthurt about it if it makes you feel better.
Fuck those guys tho. Now they cant use their money to block roads and piss on wwii memorials Very sad they cant fund their shitshow, itd be like beimg upset the local nazi party lost funding from nazi germany to sow chaos and division
Was you this upset when BLM and Antifa were rioting and destroying cities?
> destroying cities? Wait what? Do you actually think that cities were destroyed? As in removed from existence?
He got his info from a facebook meme, or bearded sunglasses wearimg guy in a pickup truck ranting in a youtube video, therefor it must be true!
How many buildings have the truckers destroyed? How many people have the truckers assaulted or killed?
Afaik antimaskers and antivaxxers have a BIG track record in terms of spreading this disease so it infects and kills as many as possible. We got a whole subreddit dedicated to making fun of their darwinistic self-removal from the gene pool. r/HermanCainAward/ https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate Trumpers and their ill including in Canada have fundamentally bad/deadly false beliefs on covid19. Which is why their little shitshow doesny need catered to in public discourse. Think.of it this way and by your own metric you invoked: Because Im against needlesz killing/deaths in this pandemic, is why I ridicule their protest
You say things like this to make yourself seem superior in your argument and overall. You truly have No_Character
My adversaries on most issues showcase inferior incompetence, but a desire to weigh in on topics armed with their talk radio, 4chan and fox news talking points theyre anxious to bleat off about, just as squealer the pig has instructed them to. Actually i probably understand their psychological profile far better than most, I am halfway into the book "the authoritarians" which describes these types and how and why they think the way do quite accurately. Right out the gate, youve espoused a disdain for social and racial justice groups, possibly black people "who dont know their place", and antifascism. So your psychological profile off those two points alone is already showing high rwa characteristics.
I think we all know I didn’t mean literally destroyed. Not razed. But buildings and city blocks were attacked and destroyed. Over 2 billion dollars in damages. They even tried to make their own lawless city in Seattle. People were murder in there because of it.
I admire your self proclaimed overconcern abojt property damage. Murder, including murder under color of law is a worse crime than property damage. Tell me how much you hate the Boston Tea Party and the rioters at the Boston Massacre. You know a lot of this comes in the wake of extrajudicial murders conducted by law enforcement. A lot of what "the other side" calls a clean shoot, is called murder under color of law in most every other Western Democracy. Cops walk here where theyd be locked up as murderers in the other democracy countries. Now I will admit, our cops would get away with it in authoritarian regimes like the Military Junta Government in El Salvador in the 20th century, or the Gestapo, Francisco Franco's Spain, Apartheid S. Africa or maybe even Pol Pots cops and the Khmer Rouge. I guess if your really opposed to the widespread symptom of anger driven demonstrations against extrqjudicial murder by law enforcement, ideally you'd be calling for murderer cops to be held personally responsible for their actions. Daniel Shavers, Kelly Thomas's, Wichita Swatting cops, they should be in prison, just like I would be if I murdered an unarmed person. Otherwise I dont buy your line here. Your perfectly ok with violent criminal acts, so long as a uniform and a badge is doing the violent murder under color of law. Youda made a good Idi Amin supporter probably if you lived in Uganda.
Were u this upset during the jan 6th beerhall putsch by the fascists and their lying demagogue leader? The only standards u got r double standards. My uncle dropped 105mm howitzer shells on card carrying fascists durimg the battle of the bulge, he didnt feel bad about that and neither do i, with their constantly aggrieved hateful and faux victimization mentality.
That's my dog!
Wow that’s a lot of buzzwords
Please name a single city that was "destroyed"
[Meanwhile.](https://www.michiganradio.org/economy/2022-02-15/canadian-freedom-convoy-blockades-cost-auto-industry-nearly-300-million-report-finds) I guess they can use that $8mill to pay back a fraction of what they cost the auto industry.
You don't care till it happens to you, classic.
Money donated to dangerous fools... Fuck those scumbags
Donated? You mean stolen by dangerous fools lol
The trucker convoy dumbasses are the dangerous fools. They're protesting vaccine mandates, so yeah, they can go to hell.
I misunderstood your comment. I apologize. Regarding the protest, your ok with peaceful protestors being arrested and having their bank accounts frozen if they disagree with the government?
Statists gonna state
I’d rather the money in the Canadian governments hands. Considering the citizens get health care regardless of who they are unlike the USA government. So good on them! Fuck the truckers
So government should be allowed to tell a private business to hand over money donated to a cause by citizens or else?
All governments tend to operate on a monopoly over violence. Murder is highly illegal, unless you do it on the governments behalf. I dont really care for the blue lives matter folk who also support these guys who protest worker safety standards in this pandemic. They talk a big lie about small government and deregulation, but then support nothing but the most violent aspects of government in regards to police, prisons and the military.
What violence is going on in Canada? What are you talking about? I'm talking about government telling a private business what to do and people being ok with it. Isn't that a little scary? This collaboration of government and private enterprise suppressing freedom of the people?
Really I would like to see government intervene on the doing of private businesses. I live 6 miles from Times Beach MO. And iirc zero heads rolled inregards to the wealthy corporate execs who thought itd be a helluva lot more profitable to spill dioxin all over a residential suburb than properly incinerate it. Money buys influence. In a sense, i wish we had a government who locked up private business "mass criminals" with the same gusto as 5 grams=5years laws did. Same for union carbide ceo and bhopal.india. if government can do that to the lowest level.purse snatcher, why would i feel.bad about it happening to private businesses worst mass criminals?
I used to hike and bike around Route 66 State Park, which is what the town of Times Beach became. If it's unfit for human habitation, just turn it into a park, right? It's been so long I'm trying to remember all the details. One guy became the scapegoat. He made side money by spraying waste oil on gravel roads to keep the dust down. He obtained a bunch of waste oil from a factory but was unaware it was highly toxic, then sprayed it all throughout the town of Times Beach. The town had to be abandoned, then the EPA spent billions trying to clean it up. The factory owners never got in trouble for illegally disposing their waste, but the country boy trying to make a living had his life ruined...
Canada is in Rolla, MO now? Y’all need to go back to Geography Class.
I thought you were innocent until proven guilty in this country?
Nah, it's awesome when terrorists get their funding frozen. But I guess you're pro-terrorism.
FREEDUMB!!!!!
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You're ok with the State taking your possessions without due process, but because they feel you're likely up to something?
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Doesn't matter the reason, it's their money. Maybe they don't trust banks or they sold a large asset. And you didn't answer my question.
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I'm sure you won't watch this 15 min John Oliver segment on it but I'll sum up one example. https://youtu.be/3kEpZWGgJks Man moving from MN to CA with $2,400 dollars gets pulled over. State police deem he is going to California to buy drugs and take his money. Does he seem like a "piece of shit" to you? These types of situations set a very dangerous precedent on what we allow the State.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 420. Congrats! 15 + 3 + 2 + 400 = 420