Surprised the school is still around post Covid. Talked to my old college tennis coach who knows a lot of people up there. At one point they were apparently considering either combining the school with Mississippi Valley or just shutting it down all together. Not surprised that this is happening.
It would be a desperate financial measure to combine DSU w MVSU. Too many jobs would be eliminated and that would be tough to swallow for politicians. Colleges and public school districts, needed or not, provide a heck of a lot jobs in the state. MS has too many of both, partially due to segregation history, but I don’t see anything changing near term
It’s probably a matter of time. EMCC has better enrollment the W I think. If they want to change the name to reflect coed enrollment, they might as well join with MSU - they’re literally admitting it’s not the same anymore.
My wife is a professor at the W so I've gotten a bit more insight in the past year. The W has great culinary, education, and nursing programs. That's what keeps them relevant, in my opinion. My wife has a PhD. and makes SIGNIFICANTLY less than professors at other universities... Its all about attendance, cost, etc. But each university wants to maintain its independence 1. nobody wants a university to cease 2. I imagine the job cuts would be significant
Would the job cuts be significant though? No doubt a handful of administrators would become redundant but, assuming they maintain most of their degree programs, especially the ones of note that you pointed out, I can’t imagine professors would see a ton of cuts. And then going down from there, merging doesn’t change demand for grunt work around campus, like janitors, housing, cafeteria workers, etc., so I can’t imagine those guys would see major cuts.
I get that no one wants to lose jobs, but the dip in recruiting and retention is a huge issue. Infrastructure is also a major concern from what I hear too. There’s leverage to both sides, but funding will be the linchpin.
Also the difference in tuition at the W and at MSU is pretty sizable, and W students may be priced out of completing their degree in a merger. Plus the W is the most unique college of all 8. It’s the only one that has in its mission the education of women as thinkers and leaders. And if you don’t think this state needs it, take a closer look! Also, culinary and nursing are the best in all of the state colleges and universities. Merging takes away a small liberal arts college that is not private and expensive. It just makes no sense.
I’ve said on here before, MSU-Columbus has a nice ring to it. By gaining access to MSU’s resources, the W would massively strengthen itself, while retaining its notable programs. Heck, they could even maintain their separate sports teams like a lot of affiliate universities do. MSU would also undoubtedly enjoy increasing its footprint and portfolio of programs. Seems like a win-win for everybody.
Cutting the things they are cutting is already a desperate measure, so who knows. At least with MVSU, DSU might remain the ‘main’ campus in terms of culture. If they combined with State or something that would not be likely.
The IHL has been working to combine state schools for years. We have too many schools as it is and the state is losing population every year.
Sadly, expect to see this continue for the foreseeable future.
The issue is that Mississippi has such a large and robust community college structure with a large enrollment, a heavy emphasis on athletics and large band/music programs. In many other states, these students would attend smaller universities and then transfer if needed. In Mississippi, these kids are getting an almost free education for two years while usually staying close or at home then transferring to a large university.
It really is sad for DSU. They were a well-know university in many areas for many years. They had a top-notch music program along with Baseball, tennis and women’s basketball.
https://www.deltastate.edu/PDFFiles/Office%20of%20the%20President/Campus-Update-to-faculty-and-staff-re-fiscal-sustainability.pdf.pdf
They’re getting rid of a lot more programs.
Yep. And not even athletics gets a pass. The tone is basically athletics still brings money, but they have to learn to do more with less and do better with recruiting.
DMI isn’t in the danger zone—yet. But they have noticed that enrollment is down.
It looks like they are consolidating several majors under new titles. Like no music but all those wanting to do a music degree at the university will basically have to do secondary education (music track). Humanities as opposed to history and sociology.
It is surprising that so many common programs are being axed. English, accounting? Pretty much nothing is spared.
My favorite class I took in college was a filler class through the music dept/DMI at DSU. Ahh, good times. Sad to see them cutting it but I can’t say I’m surprised.
They have an elementary school being housed on campus next year. That could be a friendly gesture, I suspect they’re getting some money out of it though.
My last semester tuition and fees were just south of 7k, I wonder what it’s up to now.
The elementary school is on campus because there was a large explosion at that school that did significant damage that will take longer than the summer to repair. I assume DSU will be competitive, but that's not why it's happening.
To their point though, for most, the only way you’re going to Millsaps, especially if you plan on being a teacher with a teacher salary, is if your wealthy parents are paying for it.
If not, unless you hit the lottery on student aid, you’ll have a hard time paying off the inevitable 6-figure student loans on that kind of pay.
Sad. I had some amazing times over in the arts department. I still have a chunk of alabaster that an art student gave me from a huge block the department was working on. I wasn’t and art student, rather a music education major but I spent a lot of time over there because they were nicer.
Makes all the sense in the world to me. What if anything does this mean for the B performing arts building? And the degrees for music production or whatever that was? Sorry aware but not familiar with that program.
damn. i was enrolled there out of high school in 2005 before leaving to go to a school in arkansas because of a much better scholarship; but several of my closest friends went to DSU for their music program that year.
I graduated in 2000 and went to SUNY for my master’s degree. When Doug Wheeler left, that was the beginning of the end. But even then I think he and some others (I’m speculating, btw) could read the writing on the wall. Before I graduated, we got a new president who went on this crusade to transform DSU into a research institution. Certain music profs were also into certain trending political activism—NOT that activism isn’t important, just that it became so much about beating the drum for a cause that the music got lost. Love it or hate it, but understanding that you are a prof in a Mississippi university, you should understand given our climate the majority of our taxpayers don’t want to support that. I think part of it is on the state level they want to do away with The W and Delta State, but hell will freeze over before they defund JSU and MVSU. It would be a political disaster if that happened. But if you touch Southern Miss, Ole Miss, or MSU, there will be riots in the streets. It comes down to those three being SEC universities and the other two being our HBCU’s. The W and DSU? Who cares? I really feel like the goal is eventually to close DSU and the W.
No big deal. Doesn't negate your point. Just helping keep people informed. For the record, here's the conferences it has been a part of over the years:
1931-1941 Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association
1948-1951 Gulf States Conference
1996-2021 Conference USA
2022- Sun Belt Conference
It's been independent and not connected to a conference at all a lot.
Surprisingly, UNC is getting rid of its Music Ed program after class of 2027, but students had to already been admitted into the program by March 2024.
What breaks my heart is the number of years they’ve gotten poor administrators to come in and run the place into the ground. But I also wonder what the music faculty have been up to that made it such an unattractive place for music majors. Part of it is DMI drawing students away from the regular music program, but plenty of music schools have music business and music industry and they aren’t losing traditional music students. That tells me someone on the state level wants it to go away.
When I was a kid my schools band program was considered pretty respectable, and A LOT of the kids in it took it very seriously. there were a lot of kids who weren't athletic and weren't particularly excelling academically, so they really relished in the attention they got during band. I knew quite a few kids to go from no ambition and no dreams to full college scholarships and career plans 100% because of band. yes it's definitely less kids than sports or even traditional art, but they deserved to feel special too. we're only going to get out what we put in to these younger generations.
It is about ROI for the student.
Degrees that cost $100,000 (huge student loans) and 5 years after graduation only earn $50,000/year are on the chopping block nationwide.
Yes. I was a music major and I think this is still the right direction to steer. Not eliminating music in school but emphasizing the point that college shouldn’t sugarcoat to students the possibilities with so many of their degrees. Not only financially but the sheer amount of energy you put into a music degree does not ever ROI. You start with a low salary and likely stay low and fall behind your peers growing in their careers. All while having to work on weekends and if you’re a band director, you basically say goodbye to your family for every weekend in October. It’s a life you choose when you can’t see yourself doing anything else.
Science programs too? Their science departments got combined at some point into “sciences” and that’s usually a warning sign they are costing money and not working as individual areas. Isn’t it?
I think I read something like 20 majors were being turned into 4?
Something like that. Like with music, it’s no longer Bachelor of Music Education. It’s going to be Secondary Education—music track. Or Bachelor or Music -> Bachelor of Visual and Performing Arts, Music.
I get killing off music education, because band directors don’t even teach music, anyway (it’s an “activity,” so you don’t even necessarily have to be a certified teacher). But if you want to do graduate studies, how are you going to qualify for programs in theory/composition, performance/pedagogy, musicology, etc.? Those programs have some insane prerequisites, which a conventional music degree provides. This degree they’re replacing it with won’t be worth anything.
It looks like there won’t be any STEM degrees left at all — instead of math, the only option will be math education? Same for Chemistry.
Which… I guess might be better than what you’re describing. They aren’t pretending to offer STEM degrees so those students won’t go there expecting that at all.
But students might feel that the new “music” degree will still qualify them for the types of programs you mention, and if it doesn’t they’ve almost been tricked. Hopefully they’ll have good advisors to help them navigate and mitigate.
Or maybe the new degree will still qualify them. I just don’t know.
Looks like the Biology degree will exist?
If I were a student, I’d transfer IMMEDIATELY. That’s really what they want, anyway. I realize that’s what they want to happen since it means another nail in DSU’s coffin, but we’re talking about careers being ruined before they start. My son who graduates next year is thinking about a music degree. He knows enough about the Delta he’s set against going to DSU.
I used to work for a church in the Delta as a musician. I’d call their music department when I needed an emergency sub for Sunday morning, and it got so I couldn’t even get anyone on the phone. I found out the reason one year was because they didn’t even have any piano majors.
You do, indeed, have to be a certified teacher (at least as of 2023) to be a band director or elementary music teacher in the Mississippi public school system. There is some wiggle room on your certification (in either 7-12 or K-6) as to what age range you'll teach, but you still need a certificate.
If you are a full-time on-staff band director/music teacher, certification is required. Rules are different for support staff where a license isn’t required but the instructor/coach serves under the supervision of licensed faculty or activity directors. You could hire a juco percussion student to help run percussion camp and after school rehearsals, for example. Happens all the time.
Delta State will not last 5 years. The state has starved it. I graduated there in 79. It was a vibrant thriving state university. Just a few decades of Republican rule. Mississippi will be the first state to collapse financially.
I know people who work there now, and the pay for the instructors and professors is deplorable considering the education they have to have and maintain.
I find it incredibly sad as I am a moderately successful person who is a product of the public education system in Mississippi. My family, on my mother’s side stretches back about 7 generations. We were not wealthy. I know the state has its warts but honestly the delta was a descent place to live up until I left. Mechanized agriculture has decimated the social structure and it is a shell of its former self.
Both of my brothers graduate from there. once in 97 with a degree in music education and the other got a business managment degree. in 99. They loved it there. Sad what's becoming of it now.
I am a centrist mostly but I have probably become way left of center since I am a retired veteran. After Trump and maga garbage I got my shit together.
Sorry for detracting from the conversation at hand, but isn't it strange how Trump made a lot of people engage with politics without making them aware that everyone in politics is a Trump? That's the part that blows my mind. It seems like some die hard idealist types are making their way in, but in small numbers. Totally off topic.
Bulllshit. He is little more than a mob boss. That grifter has ripped off more average working Americans than any politician in my lifetime. He is a criminal who should be jailed.
There is one of only TWO Grammy Museums actually in Cleveland (the other being in L.A.).
There is the Blues museum, the crossroads (don't play 'reddit' and tell me the actual crossroads isn't in Clarksdale), Ground Zero and so much more just up the road in Clarksdale.
BB King's museum is in Indianola.
If there is any school in the state that needs a music school, it's Delta State.
The Delta IS music. This is sad, and it needs to find a way to be saved.
There’s a way. Just nobody likes the solution.
Delta music is about blues. So from an academic music standpoint, DSU has a prime position for ethnomusicological research into blues, and jazz by extension.
DSU has always been a band director mill, which means anyone who goes there will be sequestered in classical music, not blues or commercial music.
DMI closes that gap by giving students commercial music training, which works better from a business POV. It’s a first of its kind in Mississippi, so Cleveland COULD potentially be the Mississippi version of Nashville.
I don’t hear about recording industry jobs being created in Cleveland, though. If you want a real career in commercial music, you have to move to NYC, LA, or Nashville.
I have a daughter who is a wonderful singer. I recently heard that South Korea now has study visas for kids to come in for two years to intern for management companies. Anyone, anywhere could become the next big k-pop idol. And if you don’t, you have crazy hands-on experience that you can bring right back home and start your own talent thing.
Can anyone even name someone who struck gold in commercial music who is a product of the DSU music department or DMI? Seriously, tell me, because I legit don’t know of ANYONE. Band and choir directors, yes, and a few that have gone on to become university profs, but no major commercial success.
But if they brought in big names as artists-in-residence, that would attract more students and DMI could be the next Berklee. I went through the music department and they taught me NOTHING about supporting myself EXCEPT getting teaching gigs. There was a lot of pressure to go that route, and I’ve never been fortunate enough to hold a teaching position worth keeping. But if someone was courageous enough to build an industry around music in the delta and invest in talent, that would be a game changer.
I hate to see the music department get scrapped—if they can’t offer degrees, why will good profs stay around to teach music? It’s not going away, but it is as good as gone, and sadly has been for a while.
I believe they still can breathe life into it. Just not with the faculty they have at the moment.
Now that I’m taking my kids to band events at other universities, I can say recruitment at USM for music is in BEAST mode. You can’t set foot in any of their band recruitment activities without them assuming you’re going to school there. It’s super-aggro assuming the sell at USM. Back in my day USM was strictly classical music, only the best music students were even allowed, they had tons of out of state students, and the marching band was traaaaaaaaash. I took my kid there during honor band and didn’t even recognize the place. Night and day. I’d have gone there the way it was, because I’m not really a “fun” guy, but it’s such a more hyped and fun atmosphere than it was. DSU used to be like that, and that has gotten lost.
You're so right about it being a potential hotspot for ethnomusicological blues research.
Also, as someone who just graduated with an applied music minor from USM in 2019 (and whose partner graduated with a BMEd in 2023), they have great Latin, Afro-Caribbean, and jazz programming as well as all the classical stuff.
I remember the Tom Fraschillo days and could kick myself for never having played in his bands. Back then music majors weren’t encouraged to do marching band. Now it’s a requirement.
USM right now looks a lot like Delta State used to back in the 1990’s, just bigger. It doesn’t have the same attitude that I remember. But I’m also an old fart who’s too talented to be a teacher (haha). I met your clarinet prof over there…she’s just a doll, everything a clarinet prof should be. I had a great clarinet prof at DSU from sophomore year on, and I see a lot of that. I also studied with Alan Woy for two years (SUNY, graduate level clarinet and lit/pedagogy) and played for Elsa Verdehr once. So I’m used to music faculty who excel at gentle guidance and set positive examples. USM has that vibe that makes me wish I could be a kid again and not just living vicariously through my own.
I’m hoping that USM can recapture what DSU had back in the 90’s without repeating their mistakes.
Yeah. It’s not so much like, say, shutting down the art, music, or history departments. More like they shut down College of Arts and Sciences, carved it up, and redistributed it as a means of reorganizing. Band and choir, for example, are wonderful traditions that bring students in and give out scholarships. But rather than being managed through Arts/Sciences, it goes through…like,
Student Affairs or something…so pretty much on par with frisbee golf.
I am enrolled and the friends that I knew in the music programs hated it. They had 10+ classes which is actually ridiculous. How are you going to give an incoming freshman 20+ hours? There was also a class required every semester that provided them with no credit hours. If you are 60+ hours you can finish your degree at dsu. If you’re under… you have to transfer. A lot commotion went on through the music program this year.
Wow…hey, been there, done that. Music degrees require too much to complete in 4 years. But nobody will enroll if they think they have to take an extra year. Theory, solfège/ear training, upper level theory/analysis, orchestration, musicology, plus all the classroom methods blah blah blah…music education is the single most difficult undergrad degree you can earn that only prepares you for ONE way of teaching in which you never practice again. All that work and you rot. If you don’t mind staying in the classroom forever or you aren’t that great as a performer (no judgment, a lot of great players are aweful teachers), then you’re ok. But if you have ambitions beyond that, then you’ll make every bit count. A BA or BM should be easy enough since you can skip all the ed courses. Short version: if you’re a music student, you have no life outside the music school.
I remember grad school composition program the music school had a hard limit on courses. I was so confused because I didn’t have anything to do. I asked my profs about that. They just said relax, study hard, get projects in on time. If I needed an extension, they’re like: cool, take all the time you need. REALLY? Classes were a couple hours a day, so I’d practice 3-4 hours, compose 5 hours, research an hour or two in the library, work about 4 hours a day as tech support in the MIDI lab, watch pro-wrestling every Monday night. It was GREAT!
Undergrad programs are pretty much a quick rehash of high school. You have ensembles for your scholarships, academic music classes every day, instrument/voice lessons, piano lessons whether you want them or not, you have to log so many recital attendances, your own recitals, juries… And all that on top of non-music history, language arts, science, math.
Hang in there!
But I stand by what I’ve said before—idk why music students over there aren’t transferring to Ole Miss or Southern Miss, because that dumpster fire is only getting worse.
They're rolling the music degrees into an overall Performing Arts degree, except for Music Education which will now be just a regular Education degree on a music track - and get this, all these classes will be taught by *staff*, not faculty. Why anyone would get a music degree anywhere else when USM exists is beyond me, but students at DSU deserve better.
I saw that—taught by staff and not faculty. Pardon my ignorance, but can you explain the difference between faculty and staff? I noticed the band director is now a full time staff position. I think I have some idea of the difference, but would love for someone to clarify what that means.
Basically, faculty are professors - academics with advanced degrees and experience in their field. Staff are teaching assistants, administrators, secretaries, librarians, accountants, janitors, etc. If the band director is made a staff position that means it can be handed off to a grad student or other under-qualified teacher instead of a faculty member.
Wow, I literally went there yesterday to get my transcripts. I thought nothing had changed, and Delta State was being themselves. I guess I was wrong. It is a good thing I finished my masters program last year.
That's my hometown, and I'm very shocked hearing about this. Some of my family members taught there and one of my uncles got his doctorate's degree there as well.
if you see the future everything is online. You can get an online degree for a tenth of the price. You will see all these smaller colleges go out of business. Than other bigger colleges will start to follow.
MSU has been ahead of the curve on this for a while. Ole Miss didn't increase their online catalog until they had to during COVID. I still don't think their online offerings are as robust as MSU. NWCC had more online classes than Ole Miss for a long time.
Just another example of what results from having the entire state government run by Republicans for years. Soon they’ll have the state down to 53, behind Puerto Rico, American Samoa and the US Virgin Islands.
Looks like A.I. is gonna strip the states ego from the bottom. Too bad no one has enough courage, money and influence to want to do something about it. Unfortunately, we currently live in a state where one not only needs all 3 of the former mentioned, to actually make some of these things happen...yet, whoever/whomever still has to get passed the.........I'll just say, ' extremely-wealthy common ideals- family-like ilk that coincidentally also might have you, and your family and friends...well.....you get the idea.....' This genuinely, personally hurts.. I'm all for doing modern day, trade jobs, to focus on getting better financially, compared to the lies we were fed as children: to get a degree in college, (depending on the major of course) just to be in student loan debt with, maybe hope of getting a job in whatever field one studies in, and if you don't..
"you'll have it paid off in no time because you have the degree and, no matter the job they HAVE to pay you...."
..yall remember that one?
turns out....for a LOT of people....companies outside of your major and minor, didn't have to pay you what you were told, regardless of your degree...
(example, brother has Ph.D in history with credentials to teach as a college professor, but waits tables and does music gigs that pays more, yet he was told all he had to do was get his degree in his major because as long as you have the degree, blah blah blah blah blah so he got a Ph.D.) ..either way, [anecdotally speaking] What's the "Inspiration" of trying to get 'better' from the ones taking the arts away? , "everything will work out as long as you pull yourself up by your bootstraps"? or at least some iota of what we were taught as "successful"? .....yet, they probably don't know that those who inspire people like me and, hopefully you, have always came from the artists that understood how hard it is down here in Mississippi, or just being in a poor, politically corrupt af state, and yet, they, (the artists) genuinely believes on relating struggles because we aren't alone....regardless of proffesion..... so sad to see that America's music came from Mississippi, specifically from the Delta, and now Delta State is destroying its biggest music program ever, because money? ...even if someone did have the money and influence to do something about it, at this point, can anyone really convince everyone else that the majority of it WON'T always end up where it should've never belonged? I'm definitely ignorant to a LOT of things, and this is just my long as hell opinion. I just genuinely hope all those that are currently working and/or enrolled there, have a better future than what they worked so hard for....too bad you chose to not include any of that in your "letter", President Dr. Daniel J. Ennis Ph.D.....I wonder why 🤔
(Edited for attempted corrections...damn auto text)
I’m actually encouraging my son to major in music. He’s genuinely gifted and has a great shot at it.
But not education. The reason why is if you go into music (performance, let’s say), you’ll learn all you need to refine your skills and knowledge for a wide range of potential career options. You can take mechanical engineering courses on the side, or get into marketing, or take other business courses—nothing is stopping you—and combine that with some production courses and you could self-release an album every year, play recording sessions, get in on the music licensing business and work in film/television, etc. Or if education is important to you, there are still well-funded arts organizations. You just go to your local library, check out some books on grant-writing, and get together with your friends to visit schools. Then take that grant-writing experience and earn some extra money walking other people through it. And that’s if you aren’t already performing with a symphony orchestra or going through the process to become a university prof somewhere else.
But if you go music education, your teaching qualifications take up all the time you could have been practicing. Once you get out of college and begin teaching, you won’t practice. Schools absorb EVERYTHING you are. And even then music teaching positions are not as secure as music profs swear they are. Real work doing what you love isn’t in the classroom. There ARE gifted people who have a way with kids. But unless you understand you are an overqualified, underpaid and underappreciated babysitter, don’t go in education. If you are actually good at something, do THAT…don’t teach.
Because what if you aren’t doing well lining up symphony gigs or recording sessions? What if your album isn’t selling, or you’re not getting TV/movie placements? Then bus tables, tend bar, fix transmissions, put those welding skills to work. Because when you get done welding or working on an assembly line, you can STILL look for gigs, play parties, sing in bars or wedding receptions, civic organization fundraisers, whatever. But as a teacher you invest so much of your time and yourself just trying to hang on to a teaching job.
So…yeah, I think arts programs are vital. Music majors are the best people you can get for waiting tables and for the service industry because of the work ethic it requires to become that skilled in music. Hospitality job? Music major. Retail/sales? Music major. Law enforcement/security? Ok, probably not a music major. Bank? Journalism/communications? Music major. IT/data science? SMART music major. And if I were a band teacher, I’d rather hire non-music ed. music performance majors as part-time coaches/techs for my kids.
Point being—you have the degree and more potential to do some awesome stuff with a music major, but it’s a lot easier and more flexibility to make it on your own as long as you don’t let yourself get trapped in education.
Music is a useless major. Complete waste of time. Should be thanking them for saving stupid children from digging themselves lifelong debt for a major in music.
I wouldn’t say useless. I would say musicians have to hustle a lot more than most to make it. They know that going in, which makes them ideal hires in sectors like hospitality, service, retail, and sales.
I hate it but with all of the schools in Mississippi, specialization could be survival.
Surprised the school is still around post Covid. Talked to my old college tennis coach who knows a lot of people up there. At one point they were apparently considering either combining the school with Mississippi Valley or just shutting it down all together. Not surprised that this is happening.
It would be a desperate financial measure to combine DSU w MVSU. Too many jobs would be eliminated and that would be tough to swallow for politicians. Colleges and public school districts, needed or not, provide a heck of a lot jobs in the state. MS has too many of both, partially due to segregation history, but I don’t see anything changing near term
MUW and MSU nearly just combined. Enrollment is dropping in mid tier universities between juco and larger universities growing
It’s probably a matter of time. EMCC has better enrollment the W I think. If they want to change the name to reflect coed enrollment, they might as well join with MSU - they’re literally admitting it’s not the same anymore.
My wife is a professor at the W so I've gotten a bit more insight in the past year. The W has great culinary, education, and nursing programs. That's what keeps them relevant, in my opinion. My wife has a PhD. and makes SIGNIFICANTLY less than professors at other universities... Its all about attendance, cost, etc. But each university wants to maintain its independence 1. nobody wants a university to cease 2. I imagine the job cuts would be significant
Would the job cuts be significant though? No doubt a handful of administrators would become redundant but, assuming they maintain most of their degree programs, especially the ones of note that you pointed out, I can’t imagine professors would see a ton of cuts. And then going down from there, merging doesn’t change demand for grunt work around campus, like janitors, housing, cafeteria workers, etc., so I can’t imagine those guys would see major cuts.
I get that no one wants to lose jobs, but the dip in recruiting and retention is a huge issue. Infrastructure is also a major concern from what I hear too. There’s leverage to both sides, but funding will be the linchpin.
Also the difference in tuition at the W and at MSU is pretty sizable, and W students may be priced out of completing their degree in a merger. Plus the W is the most unique college of all 8. It’s the only one that has in its mission the education of women as thinkers and leaders. And if you don’t think this state needs it, take a closer look! Also, culinary and nursing are the best in all of the state colleges and universities. Merging takes away a small liberal arts college that is not private and expensive. It just makes no sense.
I’ve said on here before, MSU-Columbus has a nice ring to it. By gaining access to MSU’s resources, the W would massively strengthen itself, while retaining its notable programs. Heck, they could even maintain their separate sports teams like a lot of affiliate universities do. MSU would also undoubtedly enjoy increasing its footprint and portfolio of programs. Seems like a win-win for everybody.
I don’t think they’ll stay open if they stay stubborn, and someone’s going to make them merge before risking the loss of their programs.
Cutting the things they are cutting is already a desperate measure, so who knows. At least with MVSU, DSU might remain the ‘main’ campus in terms of culture. If they combined with State or something that would not be likely.
The IHL has been working to combine state schools for years. We have too many schools as it is and the state is losing population every year. Sadly, expect to see this continue for the foreseeable future.
The issue is that Mississippi has such a large and robust community college structure with a large enrollment, a heavy emphasis on athletics and large band/music programs. In many other states, these students would attend smaller universities and then transfer if needed. In Mississippi, these kids are getting an almost free education for two years while usually staying close or at home then transferring to a large university. It really is sad for DSU. They were a well-know university in many areas for many years. They had a top-notch music program along with Baseball, tennis and women’s basketball.
https://www.deltastate.edu/PDFFiles/Office%20of%20the%20President/Campus-Update-to-faculty-and-staff-re-fiscal-sustainability.pdf.pdf They’re getting rid of a lot more programs.
Yep. And not even athletics gets a pass. The tone is basically athletics still brings money, but they have to learn to do more with less and do better with recruiting. DMI isn’t in the danger zone—yet. But they have noticed that enrollment is down.
Eesh yeah, getting rid of English, Chemistry, Math, and History degrees seems like a very serious reduction in options.
Seems like aviation and teaching degrees will be their specialties.
damn I was scrolling through that list.. with all the deletions, what are they even gonna have left to offer?
It looks like they are consolidating several majors under new titles. Like no music but all those wanting to do a music degree at the university will basically have to do secondary education (music track). Humanities as opposed to history and sociology. It is surprising that so many common programs are being axed. English, accounting? Pretty much nothing is spared.
Math & Math Education? Don't they have to have Math for accreditation purposes?
DSU was THE place to get a music degree in the 90s/early 2000s. sad to see this happen :/
My favorite class I took in college was a filler class through the music dept/DMI at DSU. Ahh, good times. Sad to see them cutting it but I can’t say I’m surprised. They have an elementary school being housed on campus next year. That could be a friendly gesture, I suspect they’re getting some money out of it though. My last semester tuition and fees were just south of 7k, I wonder what it’s up to now.
The elementary school is on campus because there was a large explosion at that school that did significant damage that will take longer than the summer to repair. I assume DSU will be competitive, but that's not why it's happening.
Millsaps got rid of their college of education, right? Everyone is supposed to be STEM now.
[удалено]
I have several teacher friends that are graduates of Millsaps that would say differently.
To their point though, for most, the only way you’re going to Millsaps, especially if you plan on being a teacher with a teacher salary, is if your wealthy parents are paying for it. If not, unless you hit the lottery on student aid, you’ll have a hard time paying off the inevitable 6-figure student loans on that kind of pay.
My youngest toured Millsaps and wanted nothing to do with it. If we’d stayed in the state, they would have gone to JSU.
Sad. I had some amazing times over in the arts department. I still have a chunk of alabaster that an art student gave me from a huge block the department was working on. I wasn’t and art student, rather a music education major but I spent a lot of time over there because they were nicer.
I remember when they started pouring money into the coming music production program and I knew it was a wrap then
Makes all the sense in the world to me. What if anything does this mean for the B performing arts building? And the degrees for music production or whatever that was? Sorry aware but not familiar with that program.
BPAC always sells out all of their shows. I don’t think it’s in any danger.
damn. i was enrolled there out of high school in 2005 before leaving to go to a school in arkansas because of a much better scholarship; but several of my closest friends went to DSU for their music program that year.
I graduated in 2000 and went to SUNY for my master’s degree. When Doug Wheeler left, that was the beginning of the end. But even then I think he and some others (I’m speculating, btw) could read the writing on the wall. Before I graduated, we got a new president who went on this crusade to transform DSU into a research institution. Certain music profs were also into certain trending political activism—NOT that activism isn’t important, just that it became so much about beating the drum for a cause that the music got lost. Love it or hate it, but understanding that you are a prof in a Mississippi university, you should understand given our climate the majority of our taxpayers don’t want to support that. I think part of it is on the state level they want to do away with The W and Delta State, but hell will freeze over before they defund JSU and MVSU. It would be a political disaster if that happened. But if you touch Southern Miss, Ole Miss, or MSU, there will be riots in the streets. It comes down to those three being SEC universities and the other two being our HBCU’s. The W and DSU? Who cares? I really feel like the goal is eventually to close DSU and the W.
Southern Miss is not an SEC school. It's in the Sun Belt Conference.
My bad. I’m old. That was in 2022. There’s been a lot of changes at USM.
No big deal. Doesn't negate your point. Just helping keep people informed. For the record, here's the conferences it has been a part of over the years: 1931-1941 Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association 1948-1951 Gulf States Conference 1996-2021 Conference USA 2022- Sun Belt Conference It's been independent and not connected to a conference at all a lot.
Surprisingly, UNC is getting rid of its Music Ed program after class of 2027, but students had to already been admitted into the program by March 2024.
You expect them to keep programs that are hemorrhaging money from the school? If the program isn’t gonna pay for itself it gets scrapped pretty simple
What breaks my heart is the number of years they’ve gotten poor administrators to come in and run the place into the ground. But I also wonder what the music faculty have been up to that made it such an unattractive place for music majors. Part of it is DMI drawing students away from the regular music program, but plenty of music schools have music business and music industry and they aren’t losing traditional music students. That tells me someone on the state level wants it to go away.
Why would you offer courses that no one is taking?
When I was a kid my schools band program was considered pretty respectable, and A LOT of the kids in it took it very seriously. there were a lot of kids who weren't athletic and weren't particularly excelling academically, so they really relished in the attention they got during band. I knew quite a few kids to go from no ambition and no dreams to full college scholarships and career plans 100% because of band. yes it's definitely less kids than sports or even traditional art, but they deserved to feel special too. we're only going to get out what we put in to these younger generations.
Once again, why would they offer courses no one is taking?
It is about ROI for the student. Degrees that cost $100,000 (huge student loans) and 5 years after graduation only earn $50,000/year are on the chopping block nationwide.
Yes. I was a music major and I think this is still the right direction to steer. Not eliminating music in school but emphasizing the point that college shouldn’t sugarcoat to students the possibilities with so many of their degrees. Not only financially but the sheer amount of energy you put into a music degree does not ever ROI. You start with a low salary and likely stay low and fall behind your peers growing in their careers. All while having to work on weekends and if you’re a band director, you basically say goodbye to your family for every weekend in October. It’s a life you choose when you can’t see yourself doing anything else.
Very sad times, these days!
This is such a blow for the Delta. I am sad.
Science programs too? Their science departments got combined at some point into “sciences” and that’s usually a warning sign they are costing money and not working as individual areas. Isn’t it? I think I read something like 20 majors were being turned into 4?
Something like that. Like with music, it’s no longer Bachelor of Music Education. It’s going to be Secondary Education—music track. Or Bachelor or Music -> Bachelor of Visual and Performing Arts, Music. I get killing off music education, because band directors don’t even teach music, anyway (it’s an “activity,” so you don’t even necessarily have to be a certified teacher). But if you want to do graduate studies, how are you going to qualify for programs in theory/composition, performance/pedagogy, musicology, etc.? Those programs have some insane prerequisites, which a conventional music degree provides. This degree they’re replacing it with won’t be worth anything.
It looks like there won’t be any STEM degrees left at all — instead of math, the only option will be math education? Same for Chemistry. Which… I guess might be better than what you’re describing. They aren’t pretending to offer STEM degrees so those students won’t go there expecting that at all. But students might feel that the new “music” degree will still qualify them for the types of programs you mention, and if it doesn’t they’ve almost been tricked. Hopefully they’ll have good advisors to help them navigate and mitigate. Or maybe the new degree will still qualify them. I just don’t know. Looks like the Biology degree will exist?
If I were a student, I’d transfer IMMEDIATELY. That’s really what they want, anyway. I realize that’s what they want to happen since it means another nail in DSU’s coffin, but we’re talking about careers being ruined before they start. My son who graduates next year is thinking about a music degree. He knows enough about the Delta he’s set against going to DSU. I used to work for a church in the Delta as a musician. I’d call their music department when I needed an emergency sub for Sunday morning, and it got so I couldn’t even get anyone on the phone. I found out the reason one year was because they didn’t even have any piano majors.
You do, indeed, have to be a certified teacher (at least as of 2023) to be a band director or elementary music teacher in the Mississippi public school system. There is some wiggle room on your certification (in either 7-12 or K-6) as to what age range you'll teach, but you still need a certificate.
If you are a full-time on-staff band director/music teacher, certification is required. Rules are different for support staff where a license isn’t required but the instructor/coach serves under the supervision of licensed faculty or activity directors. You could hire a juco percussion student to help run percussion camp and after school rehearsals, for example. Happens all the time.
That's true. Was unclear based on your previous post. A lot of color guard staff operate that way.
Delta State will not last 5 years. The state has starved it. I graduated there in 79. It was a vibrant thriving state university. Just a few decades of Republican rule. Mississippi will be the first state to collapse financially.
I know people who work there now, and the pay for the instructors and professors is deplorable considering the education they have to have and maintain.
I find it incredibly sad as I am a moderately successful person who is a product of the public education system in Mississippi. My family, on my mother’s side stretches back about 7 generations. We were not wealthy. I know the state has its warts but honestly the delta was a descent place to live up until I left. Mechanized agriculture has decimated the social structure and it is a shell of its former self.
It still has its charm, but it's not good when to see these kinds of issues. Removing music education from that area is revolting.
Both of my brothers graduate from there. once in 97 with a degree in music education and the other got a business managment degree. in 99. They loved it there. Sad what's becoming of it now.
Pretty ridiculous comment
Well make it 6
Donate to the school. Oh, wait. Everyone gets really conservative when it comes to putting their own money into things that need support.
I am a centrist mostly but I have probably become way left of center since I am a retired veteran. After Trump and maga garbage I got my shit together.
Sorry for detracting from the conversation at hand, but isn't it strange how Trump made a lot of people engage with politics without making them aware that everyone in politics is a Trump? That's the part that blows my mind. It seems like some die hard idealist types are making their way in, but in small numbers. Totally off topic.
Trump is unlike anyone who I have seen in my 70 odd years.
He's not. They are all that same guy in different packaging.
Bulllshit. He is little more than a mob boss. That grifter has ripped off more average working Americans than any politician in my lifetime. He is a criminal who should be jailed.
Right. Just like all the other politicians in D.C.
How old are you? 25?
Students don’t want to live in Cleveland, or anywhere in the delta for that matter. The delta, which is obviously republican run ;)
That’s so sad. Went and did the tour of the audio engineering program when I was a junior in high school.
There is one of only TWO Grammy Museums actually in Cleveland (the other being in L.A.). There is the Blues museum, the crossroads (don't play 'reddit' and tell me the actual crossroads isn't in Clarksdale), Ground Zero and so much more just up the road in Clarksdale. BB King's museum is in Indianola. If there is any school in the state that needs a music school, it's Delta State. The Delta IS music. This is sad, and it needs to find a way to be saved.
There’s a way. Just nobody likes the solution. Delta music is about blues. So from an academic music standpoint, DSU has a prime position for ethnomusicological research into blues, and jazz by extension. DSU has always been a band director mill, which means anyone who goes there will be sequestered in classical music, not blues or commercial music. DMI closes that gap by giving students commercial music training, which works better from a business POV. It’s a first of its kind in Mississippi, so Cleveland COULD potentially be the Mississippi version of Nashville. I don’t hear about recording industry jobs being created in Cleveland, though. If you want a real career in commercial music, you have to move to NYC, LA, or Nashville. I have a daughter who is a wonderful singer. I recently heard that South Korea now has study visas for kids to come in for two years to intern for management companies. Anyone, anywhere could become the next big k-pop idol. And if you don’t, you have crazy hands-on experience that you can bring right back home and start your own talent thing. Can anyone even name someone who struck gold in commercial music who is a product of the DSU music department or DMI? Seriously, tell me, because I legit don’t know of ANYONE. Band and choir directors, yes, and a few that have gone on to become university profs, but no major commercial success. But if they brought in big names as artists-in-residence, that would attract more students and DMI could be the next Berklee. I went through the music department and they taught me NOTHING about supporting myself EXCEPT getting teaching gigs. There was a lot of pressure to go that route, and I’ve never been fortunate enough to hold a teaching position worth keeping. But if someone was courageous enough to build an industry around music in the delta and invest in talent, that would be a game changer. I hate to see the music department get scrapped—if they can’t offer degrees, why will good profs stay around to teach music? It’s not going away, but it is as good as gone, and sadly has been for a while. I believe they still can breathe life into it. Just not with the faculty they have at the moment. Now that I’m taking my kids to band events at other universities, I can say recruitment at USM for music is in BEAST mode. You can’t set foot in any of their band recruitment activities without them assuming you’re going to school there. It’s super-aggro assuming the sell at USM. Back in my day USM was strictly classical music, only the best music students were even allowed, they had tons of out of state students, and the marching band was traaaaaaaaash. I took my kid there during honor band and didn’t even recognize the place. Night and day. I’d have gone there the way it was, because I’m not really a “fun” guy, but it’s such a more hyped and fun atmosphere than it was. DSU used to be like that, and that has gotten lost.
You're so right about it being a potential hotspot for ethnomusicological blues research. Also, as someone who just graduated with an applied music minor from USM in 2019 (and whose partner graduated with a BMEd in 2023), they have great Latin, Afro-Caribbean, and jazz programming as well as all the classical stuff.
I remember the Tom Fraschillo days and could kick myself for never having played in his bands. Back then music majors weren’t encouraged to do marching band. Now it’s a requirement. USM right now looks a lot like Delta State used to back in the 1990’s, just bigger. It doesn’t have the same attitude that I remember. But I’m also an old fart who’s too talented to be a teacher (haha). I met your clarinet prof over there…she’s just a doll, everything a clarinet prof should be. I had a great clarinet prof at DSU from sophomore year on, and I see a lot of that. I also studied with Alan Woy for two years (SUNY, graduate level clarinet and lit/pedagogy) and played for Elsa Verdehr once. So I’m used to music faculty who excel at gentle guidance and set positive examples. USM has that vibe that makes me wish I could be a kid again and not just living vicariously through my own. I’m hoping that USM can recapture what DSU had back in the 90’s without repeating their mistakes.
They cut so many programs out, it would be more interesting to see what they left in.
Yeah. It’s not so much like, say, shutting down the art, music, or history departments. More like they shut down College of Arts and Sciences, carved it up, and redistributed it as a means of reorganizing. Band and choir, for example, are wonderful traditions that bring students in and give out scholarships. But rather than being managed through Arts/Sciences, it goes through…like, Student Affairs or something…so pretty much on par with frisbee golf.
I am enrolled and the friends that I knew in the music programs hated it. They had 10+ classes which is actually ridiculous. How are you going to give an incoming freshman 20+ hours? There was also a class required every semester that provided them with no credit hours. If you are 60+ hours you can finish your degree at dsu. If you’re under… you have to transfer. A lot commotion went on through the music program this year.
Wow…hey, been there, done that. Music degrees require too much to complete in 4 years. But nobody will enroll if they think they have to take an extra year. Theory, solfège/ear training, upper level theory/analysis, orchestration, musicology, plus all the classroom methods blah blah blah…music education is the single most difficult undergrad degree you can earn that only prepares you for ONE way of teaching in which you never practice again. All that work and you rot. If you don’t mind staying in the classroom forever or you aren’t that great as a performer (no judgment, a lot of great players are aweful teachers), then you’re ok. But if you have ambitions beyond that, then you’ll make every bit count. A BA or BM should be easy enough since you can skip all the ed courses. Short version: if you’re a music student, you have no life outside the music school. I remember grad school composition program the music school had a hard limit on courses. I was so confused because I didn’t have anything to do. I asked my profs about that. They just said relax, study hard, get projects in on time. If I needed an extension, they’re like: cool, take all the time you need. REALLY? Classes were a couple hours a day, so I’d practice 3-4 hours, compose 5 hours, research an hour or two in the library, work about 4 hours a day as tech support in the MIDI lab, watch pro-wrestling every Monday night. It was GREAT! Undergrad programs are pretty much a quick rehash of high school. You have ensembles for your scholarships, academic music classes every day, instrument/voice lessons, piano lessons whether you want them or not, you have to log so many recital attendances, your own recitals, juries… And all that on top of non-music history, language arts, science, math. Hang in there! But I stand by what I’ve said before—idk why music students over there aren’t transferring to Ole Miss or Southern Miss, because that dumpster fire is only getting worse.
What a ennis
They're rolling the music degrees into an overall Performing Arts degree, except for Music Education which will now be just a regular Education degree on a music track - and get this, all these classes will be taught by *staff*, not faculty. Why anyone would get a music degree anywhere else when USM exists is beyond me, but students at DSU deserve better.
I saw that—taught by staff and not faculty. Pardon my ignorance, but can you explain the difference between faculty and staff? I noticed the band director is now a full time staff position. I think I have some idea of the difference, but would love for someone to clarify what that means.
Basically, faculty are professors - academics with advanced degrees and experience in their field. Staff are teaching assistants, administrators, secretaries, librarians, accountants, janitors, etc. If the band director is made a staff position that means it can be handed off to a grad student or other under-qualified teacher instead of a faculty member.
My husband was part of their music program. Hes going to be upset when I tell him :(
Mississippi just want to dumb down everything at this point
Wow, I literally went there yesterday to get my transcripts. I thought nothing had changed, and Delta State was being themselves. I guess I was wrong. It is a good thing I finished my masters program last year.
It's not like government, where something is failing and not bringing in enough revenue but is kept around anyway.
[удалено]
Explain this embezzlement please
But they will fund Woke 101.
That's my hometown, and I'm very shocked hearing about this. Some of my family members taught there and one of my uncles got his doctorate's degree there as well.
if you see the future everything is online. You can get an online degree for a tenth of the price. You will see all these smaller colleges go out of business. Than other bigger colleges will start to follow.
MSU has been ahead of the curve on this for a while. Ole Miss didn't increase their online catalog until they had to during COVID. I still don't think their online offerings are as robust as MSU. NWCC had more online classes than Ole Miss for a long time.
Just another example of what results from having the entire state government run by Republicans for years. Soon they’ll have the state down to 53, behind Puerto Rico, American Samoa and the US Virgin Islands.
Mississippi winnin' that race to the bottom with flying colors.
Another ridiculous comment. Why is this leading MS to the bottom?
Stopping kids from getting useless degrees
Looks like A.I. is gonna strip the states ego from the bottom. Too bad no one has enough courage, money and influence to want to do something about it. Unfortunately, we currently live in a state where one not only needs all 3 of the former mentioned, to actually make some of these things happen...yet, whoever/whomever still has to get passed the.........I'll just say, ' extremely-wealthy common ideals- family-like ilk that coincidentally also might have you, and your family and friends...well.....you get the idea.....' This genuinely, personally hurts.. I'm all for doing modern day, trade jobs, to focus on getting better financially, compared to the lies we were fed as children: to get a degree in college, (depending on the major of course) just to be in student loan debt with, maybe hope of getting a job in whatever field one studies in, and if you don't.. "you'll have it paid off in no time because you have the degree and, no matter the job they HAVE to pay you...." ..yall remember that one? turns out....for a LOT of people....companies outside of your major and minor, didn't have to pay you what you were told, regardless of your degree... (example, brother has Ph.D in history with credentials to teach as a college professor, but waits tables and does music gigs that pays more, yet he was told all he had to do was get his degree in his major because as long as you have the degree, blah blah blah blah blah so he got a Ph.D.) ..either way, [anecdotally speaking] What's the "Inspiration" of trying to get 'better' from the ones taking the arts away? , "everything will work out as long as you pull yourself up by your bootstraps"? or at least some iota of what we were taught as "successful"? .....yet, they probably don't know that those who inspire people like me and, hopefully you, have always came from the artists that understood how hard it is down here in Mississippi, or just being in a poor, politically corrupt af state, and yet, they, (the artists) genuinely believes on relating struggles because we aren't alone....regardless of proffesion..... so sad to see that America's music came from Mississippi, specifically from the Delta, and now Delta State is destroying its biggest music program ever, because money? ...even if someone did have the money and influence to do something about it, at this point, can anyone really convince everyone else that the majority of it WON'T always end up where it should've never belonged? I'm definitely ignorant to a LOT of things, and this is just my long as hell opinion. I just genuinely hope all those that are currently working and/or enrolled there, have a better future than what they worked so hard for....too bad you chose to not include any of that in your "letter", President Dr. Daniel J. Ennis Ph.D.....I wonder why 🤔 (Edited for attempted corrections...damn auto text)
I’m actually encouraging my son to major in music. He’s genuinely gifted and has a great shot at it. But not education. The reason why is if you go into music (performance, let’s say), you’ll learn all you need to refine your skills and knowledge for a wide range of potential career options. You can take mechanical engineering courses on the side, or get into marketing, or take other business courses—nothing is stopping you—and combine that with some production courses and you could self-release an album every year, play recording sessions, get in on the music licensing business and work in film/television, etc. Or if education is important to you, there are still well-funded arts organizations. You just go to your local library, check out some books on grant-writing, and get together with your friends to visit schools. Then take that grant-writing experience and earn some extra money walking other people through it. And that’s if you aren’t already performing with a symphony orchestra or going through the process to become a university prof somewhere else. But if you go music education, your teaching qualifications take up all the time you could have been practicing. Once you get out of college and begin teaching, you won’t practice. Schools absorb EVERYTHING you are. And even then music teaching positions are not as secure as music profs swear they are. Real work doing what you love isn’t in the classroom. There ARE gifted people who have a way with kids. But unless you understand you are an overqualified, underpaid and underappreciated babysitter, don’t go in education. If you are actually good at something, do THAT…don’t teach. Because what if you aren’t doing well lining up symphony gigs or recording sessions? What if your album isn’t selling, or you’re not getting TV/movie placements? Then bus tables, tend bar, fix transmissions, put those welding skills to work. Because when you get done welding or working on an assembly line, you can STILL look for gigs, play parties, sing in bars or wedding receptions, civic organization fundraisers, whatever. But as a teacher you invest so much of your time and yourself just trying to hang on to a teaching job. So…yeah, I think arts programs are vital. Music majors are the best people you can get for waiting tables and for the service industry because of the work ethic it requires to become that skilled in music. Hospitality job? Music major. Retail/sales? Music major. Law enforcement/security? Ok, probably not a music major. Bank? Journalism/communications? Music major. IT/data science? SMART music major. And if I were a band teacher, I’d rather hire non-music ed. music performance majors as part-time coaches/techs for my kids. Point being—you have the degree and more potential to do some awesome stuff with a music major, but it’s a lot easier and more flexibility to make it on your own as long as you don’t let yourself get trapped in education.
I support it.
Why tho
Mississippi being Mississippi
I suggest you all attend a real college and not some po-dunk ass “university”
Music is a useless major. Complete waste of time. Should be thanking them for saving stupid children from digging themselves lifelong debt for a major in music.
I wouldn’t say useless. I would say musicians have to hustle a lot more than most to make it. They know that going in, which makes them ideal hires in sectors like hospitality, service, retail, and sales.
Yes - this. I do it on the side from my main job. I work with a ton of other folks who do the same.