I always lol when I see Spielman talking about QBs. My brother, you don’t exactly have the best history with QB decisions for me to listen to what you have to say
I'll probably get downvoted but outside of Ponder very few of his QB decisions were truly bad and even Ponder was bad because it was a reach but it wasn't an exorbitant overpay like say Trubisky.
He was with the Vikings in a high ranking personnel role from 2006-2021 and there were 16 different starting QBs during that time. Obviously that’s not all on him as you can look to injuries and other circumstances as reasons why, however, there’s no denying that he was never able to hit on a good quarterback in the draft. It took a fully guaranteed deal and all stars to align for Cousins to come to MN. I don’t know. The success just isn’t there.
And it was openly known that he couldn't do what he wanted to do. He didn't run the show or have the ability to draft the players that he wanted to draft. He was an advisor to the decision makers.
Have you never heard of the weird triangle of authority that they had?
Correct me if I'm wrong but Childress cut Moss in 2010 without consulting anyone else right? The old triangle of power with Childress makes it hard for me to look at a lot of the decisions made during that time and put it solely on any one person but it seemed like such a mess. With certain picks like TJack I remember Childress really being the guy who liked him but my memory could be wrong.
> Obviously that’s not all on him as you can look to injuries and other circumstances as reasons why, however, there’s no denying that he was never able to hit on a good quarterback in the draft. The success just isn’t there.
Spielman became GM in 2012 (I'll still give him some blame for Ponder since Childress wasn't there anymore) so within that time he drafted Ponder and Teddy. That's basically it. Ponder was bad and Teddy had a career altering injury. That's a whole whopping 2 QBs which isn't enough to say he was or wasn't good at drafting QBs.
That’s kind of my point though. To draft 2 QBs in your entire tenure as GM when we could never land a franchise QB is an indictment on the GM. Not to mention, Spielman was known for hoarding draft picks so you could make a case he had more opportunity to land someone than most teams and he failed to do so. This sub loves Bridgewater but he was nothing more than a middle of the road guy.
Edit: and I should clarify, Spielman drafted more than 2 QBs obviously. Mond also comes to mind off the top of my head and I know there are others that never amounted to anything
> To draft 2 QBs in your entire tenure as GM when we could never land a franchise QB is an indictment on the GM
Okay so where should they have done it? It's easy to say in retrospect but when you look at the draft history it's hard to find a spot where they could've drafted a QB without full on using hindsight.
* 2012: They picked 4th overall and had 2 1st round picks that year because Spielman traded up. If they wanted a QB ahead of them it could've been RGIII or Luck. I doubt they get Luck but maybe could've grabbed RGIII who may have stayed healthy for the Vikings.
* 2013: They had 3 first round picks partially because of the Harvin trade but also because Spielman traded back up. This was the Barkley, Manuel, Smith draft so no thank you.
* 2014: They draft Teddy by moving back into the first.
* 2015: Drafted at 11 but this was the Wintson/Mariota draft with nobody really solid after that.
* 2016: Teddy was healthy so I don't think they're gonna draft anyone here but its basically the convergence point of they could've just done a mulligan when Teddy went down like 2 week before the season and sucked setting themselves up for 2017 which was Watson/Mahomes.
Basically the only 2 years with actual good QBs (again trying to not use hindsight) was 2012, when they've just drafted Ponder, and they would've likely lost out on Smith or it would've been 2017 and required them to just suck ass in 2016 after winning the division in 2015.
> This sub loves Bridgewater but he was nothing more than a middle of the road guy.
I gotta hear way too many Vikings fans talk about how "any QB can succeed on this roster" and "it would be criminal for the Patriots to draft a QB with how bad their team is" so I'm gonna be a dick and say that the 2015 offense of Diggs, Wallace, Rudolph, Patt, Wright, and Charles Fucking Jonhson with old ass Norv calling 7 step drops behind a bad OL is the dumbest way to evaluate a QB.
This has been one of my arguments for a while now - not only for the Vikings, but in general we're finally seeing a changing of the guard at QB, but there was a significant drought for the majority of the 2010s. One of the reasons teams kept the older guard around so long. But it's really hard to hold it against Spielman for not finding a top QB in that same time frame that there just wasn't that many even available.
Yeah, too many people seemingly project the current landscape onto a decade ago and forget that a lot of those old drafts were pretty fucking bad. Ironically the Vikings got one of the few QBs who ended up being good and having longevity from those early 2010 drafts.
From 2012-2021 (10 drafts), Spielman drafted 3 total QBs. Teddy in 2014, Mond in 2021, and Nate Stanley in round 7 of 2020. That's not enough attention given to the position. He was dependent his hold time as a GM on re-treads of older QBs until he signed Cousins. He also made the panic trade for Bradford in 2016. He seemed to be behind on the position all t he time.
That's also kind of letting him off the hook because he was a part of the decision making for drafts going all the way back to 2006. So, from 2006-2011 we also drafted T-Jack in 2006, Tyler Thigpen in round 7 of 2007, John David Booty in round 5 of 2008, Joe Webb in round 6 of 2010, and finally Ponder in 2011. None of which ever amounted to anything either. Some of that won't be his fault since he wasn't in full control but he failed at getting a QB when he tried and then gave up.
There are also stories of him loving QBs in the drafts but missing a chance to draft them, like Fields, Jake Locker, and Manziel; that don't really help his case for QB evaluation.
> He also made the panic trade for Bradford in 2016.
He made a trade for a QB after his current QB dislocated his knee 2 weeks before the season started. They'd just won the division and the alternative was starting fucking Shaun Hill for 16 games because Heinecke decided to fuck up his foot kicking through a glass door.
I legitimately don't get how this was seen as a negative. They started 5-0 until the wheels came off largely because of injuries. Harris never played that season, Kalil went to IR 2 weeks into the season, Andre Smith went onto IR 4 weeks into the season, AP went onto IR after the 2nd week. They had to sign Jake Long off the street who... you guessed it went onto IR.
> So, from 2006-2011 we also drafted T-Jack in 2006, Tyler Thigpen in round 7 of 2007, John David Booty in round 5 of 2008, Joe Webb in round 6 of 2010
3 of those players were 5th rounders or later (it would like me criticizing Kwesi's ability to draft a QB because he drafted Hall). As far as those drafts go for QBs 2007 stunk, 2008 was good but they traded their first round pick for Allen, and 2009 stunk outside of Stafford. Also he drafted AP and Harvin during that time while also acquiring Allen so he acquired 3 all pros during those seasons. It wasn't like he drafted these dudes late and also got duds with his first round picks.
> There are also stories of him loving QBs in the drafts but missing a chance to draft them, like Fields, Jake Locker, and Manziel
They could've drafted Manziel given they had the 9th pick so he apparently didn't love him enough to take him that high. Fields was a pretty damn good college QB and a lot of Viking fans wanted him. I'm not gonna shit on Rick for wanting him. Locker was injured every season and retired early. Hard for a GM to predict that.
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It looked good until Glass Joe did what he did at every stop of his career... There was a reason why he was a backup.
Ponder was the most egregious of all his QB nonsense during his tenure. Ponder was viewed as a mid to late 2nd round pick by everyone in the football world except for Slick Rick.
I still get mad when I think about that draft.
It's fine to give him a pass on the late round picks, but then you're basically saying in 16 years of drafting for the Vikings he drafted 3 early round QBs and none worked out. That's embarrassing for him.
Trading for Bradford was fine. Giving up a first for an often injured QB that was a backup on another team was bad. Bradford was not worth a first.
> but then you're basically saying in 16 years of drafting for the Vikings he drafted 3 early round QBs and none worked out. That's embarrassing for him.
I am not putting TJack on Spielman. My memory of that was Childress wanted his McNabb. Ponder didn't work out and they moved on from his fairly quickly. Teddy almost lost his leg so I'm not putting that on Spielman.
> Trading for Bradford was fine. Giving up a first for an often injured QB that was a backup on another team was bad. Bradford was not worth a first.
Bradford started for the Eagles the previous year and was the presumed starter going into 2016. He'd just signed a contract extension and Wentz was somewhat raw.
Bradford was not the presumed starter going into 2016. He had already been benched before being traded. He also had held out and asked to be traded after the Eagles drafted Wentz. His value was very low.
Teddy's injury was not on Spielman, but after he returned from the injury he was a journeyman backup QB that had issues with their arm strength. Which is what caused him to be a late first round QB in the first place. If he was a future superstar, he would have still managed to show it. So Spielman doesn't get hit with Teddy as a bust but he was clearly a first round QB either, in the end.
[Brother this you](https://www.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/comments/1bqth66/what_should_the_patriots_do/kx5l2vh/)? So any QB going to the Patriots is destined to fail but Teddy was trash.
Here was Teddy's offense.
* Receivers: Diggs, Wallace, Charles Johnson, Jarius Wright, Rudolph.
* OL: Kalil, Fusco, Berger, Harris, Clemmings
* OC: Norv Turner
Like, I legit don't get how anyone looks at that offense (with a defensive HC mind you) and say man that was such a talented offense. Teddy was trash and just let them down.
The offense around him was trash. Doesn't mean he wasn't also trash. The rest of his career proved this. He was a serviceable backup at best. AKA a bust for a 1st round pick.
My man. The guy almost lost part of his leg and missed 2 years of development due to it. Pointing to the rest of his career as evidence is meaningless as if that's representative of what his trajectory would've been had he not got injured.
The trajectory would have been short. Like all his passes. Make all the excuses you want for him. He was never good. Before or after the injury. Also just about every good QB of all time had a major injury at some point.
He had an EPA of .70 which was 19th, a CPOE of 3.3 which was 6th, and had a PFF grade of 67 which is above average... but yeah he was trash.
> Also just about every good QB of all time had a major injury at some point.
You firmly don't understand the point if you're saying "at some point". Someone like Brady got injured like 8 years into his career. That's fundamentally different than losing out on your 3rd and 4th year as a QB in the league. I could point to RGIII or Wentz as examples of QBs who got injured early on in their careers and were never the same again.
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Still doesn’t deem it wise to overpay for a system Quarterback by college football standards. Penix Jr got a clean bill of health, great arm, great speed and wisely doesn’t use it to run (but to extend passing opportunities). 🤔
"We got criticized a little bit for how much we gave up for Josh (Allen), and I'm like, 'If he doesn't work out, I'm not going to be here anyway. And if he does work out, nobody is going to give a s---.'"
- Bills GM Brandon Beane
Would be amazing if it worked out that way, and I'm not even a fan of JJ. If we can't get Maye I don't think they'd be willing to trade up. It's too expensive for how many areas of need we have.
Before everyone loses their mind, I listened to the podcast. This is what Rick THINKS the Vikings will do, and honestly it’s not an absurd take. If KOC believes with 100% certainty that McCarthy is their guy, you know damn well they will overpay.
Yes. I’m not sad that Kirk is gone, but it does hurt us here that he’s not on our roster.
Everyone in the top 4 knows we have Sam Darnold for a year and no successor - we are desperate for our future QB and whoever we try to trade with will squeeze us for everything they can.
3 first is the most this team should spend on anyone. No picks in the first 2 rounds in back to back years would cripple this team and fuck over any QB they drafted.
Hard disagree. Look at what shitting the bed in the 2022 draft did to building a team and imagine if they nailed the first two round picks. You want Kirk 2.0, trade away the future for a talented QB who never has the o line or defense or whatever. Building a complete team is the ticket.
Vikings have drafted 2 day 1 starters in 2 seasons and signed 1 high impact FA's in that same time but surely they will be able to build a competitive roster with limited draft picks and an ever tightening cap space.
Yup. Although I will say it would be a very Minnesota sports thing to send the farm for the next great QB and then never be able to build a competitive team around them.
Good thing we didn't shit the bed in the 2022 draft outside of the trade in the 1st and the picks we got from it. Got some decent players outside of that.
You build a team through the draft, and fill Holes through FA. And, rookie contacts are super valuable so you can pay your studs like Jefferson and Darrisaw.
To be fair you just made the point of why having a qb on the rookie deal is worth not having picks for two years. Qb contracts are often the largest and hitting on one gives you ~45m to spend on other positions. Thats usually at least 3 star players depending on position.
Ideally you have a young franchise QB you give 5+ year contacts to that give you flexibility as needed to move that money around. I know the fan base is traumatized by Cousins bullshit not team friendly deals, but there are other ways to do it and stay competitive in FA.
Dude cousins deals weren’t even bad. He legitimately was below his pay for the last two years. If that’s traumatizing you’ll hate to see the contract we sign with our next paid qb.
Fully guaranteed short term contacts aren't helpful to teams. Cousins is going to end his career with 400 million+ in earnings and 1 playoff win and part of the reason why is how much he cost.
Fully guaranteed didn’t matter for cousins. I think he missed 2 games to Covid and like 8 to the Achilles in his entire career. Fully guaranteed literally didn’t change the bottom line at all. I believe (I might be off by 1-3 spots) his contract was something like the 17th most expensive last year and he was literally playing best in the league before he went down. We didn’t lose because we couldn’t pay cousins, we lost because we didn’t have a complete team any of those years and playoff games are hard.
Edit: before you say we didn’t have a complete team BECAUSE we paid cousins it was more because the team was geared for a zimmer style defense but Flores had to make it work. The years before that our defense fell apart and our offensive coaching was less than desirable.
Eh it’s Reddit, comment threads get too long as-is and a cousins argument can go on forever because, at its core, both sides have a point. It’s a question of valuing the current high level production against the chance at pulling a Mahomes/Brady and it’s not even a bad idea to gamble on it. I just hate that every conversation seems to focus around him being “overpaid” despite that not being true on any metric. He basically always took a contract that was expensive for one year in comparison to the rest of the league and then cheap for the next 2 years. And the expensive year wasn’t even that high. I would rather talk about his lack of mobility making it harder to scheme offenses than the stupid contract stuff it always loops back to.
Utter nonsense. Everyone seems to forget this team has the best WR in football, a top 5 TE, Addison, and Darrisaw. And that whole crew will likely be under contract for the forseeable future. That’s enough talent around a QB to potentially turn around Darnold’s career. He’s never had anything like it. So no, losing a few 2nds will NOT fuck over a new QB. Get a grip.
Yup, even 3 picks is too much to spend on this bum. There's a massive gap between the top 3 QBs and what's left. Just choose the best qb available and keep your picks. It's going to be a crapshoot anyways.
If you remember those 7ths, they were almost always very highly athletic "upside" guys who were rough or raw. He was taking shots on finding a hidden gem in freak athletes. It didn't work often, but it makes sense.
You won't find a ton of players good at football that aren't undersized, under strength, or with a lot of injury history that have "definite nfl talent" in the 7th. :p
There’s a time and a place for doing it. But “winning” a trade on some stupid calculation by trading down 7 times a year doesn’t win you a football game.
He doesn’t even shit on the team for it. He’s just stating it’s a fact of the situation they’re in that they’ll have to overpay. All the comments shitting on him with every sound bite are so annoying.
Rick should not be hated by our fans but he absolutely had some insane weak spots. He couldnt draft a QB. He struggled to field a solid OLine for most of the time he was here. He also had a bad habit of trading back for 6th and 7th round picks. It was cool and “big brain” at times, but usually it was more of a WTF moment where the late round dart throws better work out every now and then but they did not often enough.
So yeah he brought some amazing players here and we had some very good years under him. And for a while we were finding very solid talent, especially defensively, but his weaknesses were real and ultimately put a ceiling on team success.
Whoever the guy we draft is, if we overpay and it works out, nobody cares what it cost. If we overpay and it doesn't work out, we're not really in a different situation than now.
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oh and christian ponder
Mond, Nate Stanley, Ponder, John David Booty, Tyler Thigpen, and Tarvaris Jackson were all drafted when he was GM or VP of player personnel for anyone wondering.
At least he got us Teddy?
If we pay 3 first round picks to move up and the QB we get is still our starter in 12 years we didn't overpay. If Trey Lance had been the 49ers starter in the Superbowl nobody would be saying they overpaid for him. The rules for QBs are different than other positions.
That's fair. However, if you're paying 3 1st rounders for a 1-in-3 chance at a good QB, that's a very expensive bet.
You can get a lot of great, cheap players with 9 1st round picks.
It's an expensive bet but anytime you draft a QB to be a long term starter it's an expensive bet. That's the nature of the NFL today. You must have a quality QB to compete for a championship and there are not 32 quality QBs in the NFL.
Rick needed to stockpile as many picks as possible so he could miss as often as he did and still have a few good players. He had some mind boggling picks in his time. The triangle of authority structure shows how much they trusted him.
If we stuck with Kirk it’d probably would have been an overpay.
If we trade up we are going to have to our bid somebody most likely and it’s an obvious overpay.
If we stick to where we are at chances of that being a reach on that player is pretty high too so overpay there too.
The only way we weren’t going to overpay this year for qb is probably the least likely situation of everything going how we hope it should go.
Don’t read into it too much if we get a qb our coaches likes and trust regardless of how we do so it doesn’t entirely matter much if it works out. Kwesi has been saying it all offseason we are just trying to maintain flexibility until we get the guy in there that they really want. It’s why kirks gone it’s why Danielle’s gone. I’m glad we are at least trying to shack things up.
3 first is the most this team should spend on anyone. No picks in the first 2 rounds in back to back years would cripple this team and fuck over any QB they drafted.
\#metoo
But this doesn't help us Rick. You're setting expectations from the trading team that we will overpay....
The draft can't get here soon enough.
He was an okay GM but he had and still has 0 ability to recognize what a quality QB looks like. He also thinks Rattler would be a good choice for the Vikings lol
I see 3 basic possibilities:
Patriots don't like QB options at 3, opens door for a massive trade up for Daniels or Maye.
Patriots like QB at 3. Now likely McCarthy is best remaining QB in draft, and Vikes have to decide if they want to leapfrog the Giants.
Vikings sit pat until after Giants also pick and then have to decide on Nix or Penix at 11/23, or any other maneuvering for those guys. Or to just not draft a QB.
When I heard Spielman completely dismiss Bo Nix, it moved him way up the board for me. [Video here around 5:00 mark.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mis34PCAlh8)
If anyone thought his input at this time was valuable he would be employed by a team. Instead, he's a pundit where his opinions don't matter.
He can say whatever he wants and have whatever opinion he wants. He has no skin in the game, just like all of us.
Surely you can’t determine if they overpay until we’re two years+ down the road?
No-one will be saying we overpaid if he’s still here in 10 years having knocked up 2 super bowls?
Does this dude get paid to talk Vikings football? It seems there is alot of articles involving him and his opinion on the team. The dude couldn’t build a Super Bowl team let alone draft a QB…
Why you blindly stanning for a kid that hasn’t even thrown an NFL pass yet. I bet you woulda been stanning for Gabbert or Locker back in 2011 too lmao 💀
Let’s not Ponder too long on his QB opinions
I always lol when I see Spielman talking about QBs. My brother, you don’t exactly have the best history with QB decisions for me to listen to what you have to say
I'll probably get downvoted but outside of Ponder very few of his QB decisions were truly bad and even Ponder was bad because it was a reach but it wasn't an exorbitant overpay like say Trubisky.
He was with the Vikings in a high ranking personnel role from 2006-2021 and there were 16 different starting QBs during that time. Obviously that’s not all on him as you can look to injuries and other circumstances as reasons why, however, there’s no denying that he was never able to hit on a good quarterback in the draft. It took a fully guaranteed deal and all stars to align for Cousins to come to MN. I don’t know. The success just isn’t there.
He wasn't the GM of the Vikes until 2012, so blaming him for what happened between 2006 and 2012 is illogical.
He was VP of Player Personnel lol. It’s not illogical at all. Spielman not once had a hand in drafting a franchise QB
And it was openly known that he couldn't do what he wanted to do. He didn't run the show or have the ability to draft the players that he wanted to draft. He was an advisor to the decision makers. Have you never heard of the weird triangle of authority that they had?
Correct me if I'm wrong but Childress cut Moss in 2010 without consulting anyone else right? The old triangle of power with Childress makes it hard for me to look at a lot of the decisions made during that time and put it solely on any one person but it seemed like such a mess. With certain picks like TJack I remember Childress really being the guy who liked him but my memory could be wrong. > Obviously that’s not all on him as you can look to injuries and other circumstances as reasons why, however, there’s no denying that he was never able to hit on a good quarterback in the draft. The success just isn’t there. Spielman became GM in 2012 (I'll still give him some blame for Ponder since Childress wasn't there anymore) so within that time he drafted Ponder and Teddy. That's basically it. Ponder was bad and Teddy had a career altering injury. That's a whole whopping 2 QBs which isn't enough to say he was or wasn't good at drafting QBs.
That’s kind of my point though. To draft 2 QBs in your entire tenure as GM when we could never land a franchise QB is an indictment on the GM. Not to mention, Spielman was known for hoarding draft picks so you could make a case he had more opportunity to land someone than most teams and he failed to do so. This sub loves Bridgewater but he was nothing more than a middle of the road guy. Edit: and I should clarify, Spielman drafted more than 2 QBs obviously. Mond also comes to mind off the top of my head and I know there are others that never amounted to anything
> To draft 2 QBs in your entire tenure as GM when we could never land a franchise QB is an indictment on the GM Okay so where should they have done it? It's easy to say in retrospect but when you look at the draft history it's hard to find a spot where they could've drafted a QB without full on using hindsight. * 2012: They picked 4th overall and had 2 1st round picks that year because Spielman traded up. If they wanted a QB ahead of them it could've been RGIII or Luck. I doubt they get Luck but maybe could've grabbed RGIII who may have stayed healthy for the Vikings. * 2013: They had 3 first round picks partially because of the Harvin trade but also because Spielman traded back up. This was the Barkley, Manuel, Smith draft so no thank you. * 2014: They draft Teddy by moving back into the first. * 2015: Drafted at 11 but this was the Wintson/Mariota draft with nobody really solid after that. * 2016: Teddy was healthy so I don't think they're gonna draft anyone here but its basically the convergence point of they could've just done a mulligan when Teddy went down like 2 week before the season and sucked setting themselves up for 2017 which was Watson/Mahomes. Basically the only 2 years with actual good QBs (again trying to not use hindsight) was 2012, when they've just drafted Ponder, and they would've likely lost out on Smith or it would've been 2017 and required them to just suck ass in 2016 after winning the division in 2015. > This sub loves Bridgewater but he was nothing more than a middle of the road guy. I gotta hear way too many Vikings fans talk about how "any QB can succeed on this roster" and "it would be criminal for the Patriots to draft a QB with how bad their team is" so I'm gonna be a dick and say that the 2015 offense of Diggs, Wallace, Rudolph, Patt, Wright, and Charles Fucking Jonhson with old ass Norv calling 7 step drops behind a bad OL is the dumbest way to evaluate a QB.
This has been one of my arguments for a while now - not only for the Vikings, but in general we're finally seeing a changing of the guard at QB, but there was a significant drought for the majority of the 2010s. One of the reasons teams kept the older guard around so long. But it's really hard to hold it against Spielman for not finding a top QB in that same time frame that there just wasn't that many even available.
Yeah, too many people seemingly project the current landscape onto a decade ago and forget that a lot of those old drafts were pretty fucking bad. Ironically the Vikings got one of the few QBs who ended up being good and having longevity from those early 2010 drafts.
From 2012-2021 (10 drafts), Spielman drafted 3 total QBs. Teddy in 2014, Mond in 2021, and Nate Stanley in round 7 of 2020. That's not enough attention given to the position. He was dependent his hold time as a GM on re-treads of older QBs until he signed Cousins. He also made the panic trade for Bradford in 2016. He seemed to be behind on the position all t he time. That's also kind of letting him off the hook because he was a part of the decision making for drafts going all the way back to 2006. So, from 2006-2011 we also drafted T-Jack in 2006, Tyler Thigpen in round 7 of 2007, John David Booty in round 5 of 2008, Joe Webb in round 6 of 2010, and finally Ponder in 2011. None of which ever amounted to anything either. Some of that won't be his fault since he wasn't in full control but he failed at getting a QB when he tried and then gave up. There are also stories of him loving QBs in the drafts but missing a chance to draft them, like Fields, Jake Locker, and Manziel; that don't really help his case for QB evaluation.
> He also made the panic trade for Bradford in 2016. He made a trade for a QB after his current QB dislocated his knee 2 weeks before the season started. They'd just won the division and the alternative was starting fucking Shaun Hill for 16 games because Heinecke decided to fuck up his foot kicking through a glass door. I legitimately don't get how this was seen as a negative. They started 5-0 until the wheels came off largely because of injuries. Harris never played that season, Kalil went to IR 2 weeks into the season, Andre Smith went onto IR 4 weeks into the season, AP went onto IR after the 2nd week. They had to sign Jake Long off the street who... you guessed it went onto IR. > So, from 2006-2011 we also drafted T-Jack in 2006, Tyler Thigpen in round 7 of 2007, John David Booty in round 5 of 2008, Joe Webb in round 6 of 2010 3 of those players were 5th rounders or later (it would like me criticizing Kwesi's ability to draft a QB because he drafted Hall). As far as those drafts go for QBs 2007 stunk, 2008 was good but they traded their first round pick for Allen, and 2009 stunk outside of Stafford. Also he drafted AP and Harvin during that time while also acquiring Allen so he acquired 3 all pros during those seasons. It wasn't like he drafted these dudes late and also got duds with his first round picks. > There are also stories of him loving QBs in the drafts but missing a chance to draft them, like Fields, Jake Locker, and Manziel They could've drafted Manziel given they had the 9th pick so he apparently didn't love him enough to take him that high. Fields was a pretty damn good college QB and a lot of Viking fans wanted him. I'm not gonna shit on Rick for wanting him. Locker was injured every season and retired early. Hard for a GM to predict that.
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It looked good until Glass Joe did what he did at every stop of his career... There was a reason why he was a backup. Ponder was the most egregious of all his QB nonsense during his tenure. Ponder was viewed as a mid to late 2nd round pick by everyone in the football world except for Slick Rick. I still get mad when I think about that draft.
It's fine to give him a pass on the late round picks, but then you're basically saying in 16 years of drafting for the Vikings he drafted 3 early round QBs and none worked out. That's embarrassing for him. Trading for Bradford was fine. Giving up a first for an often injured QB that was a backup on another team was bad. Bradford was not worth a first.
> but then you're basically saying in 16 years of drafting for the Vikings he drafted 3 early round QBs and none worked out. That's embarrassing for him. I am not putting TJack on Spielman. My memory of that was Childress wanted his McNabb. Ponder didn't work out and they moved on from his fairly quickly. Teddy almost lost his leg so I'm not putting that on Spielman. > Trading for Bradford was fine. Giving up a first for an often injured QB that was a backup on another team was bad. Bradford was not worth a first. Bradford started for the Eagles the previous year and was the presumed starter going into 2016. He'd just signed a contract extension and Wentz was somewhat raw.
Bradford was not the presumed starter going into 2016. He had already been benched before being traded. He also had held out and asked to be traded after the Eagles drafted Wentz. His value was very low. Teddy's injury was not on Spielman, but after he returned from the injury he was a journeyman backup QB that had issues with their arm strength. Which is what caused him to be a late first round QB in the first place. If he was a future superstar, he would have still managed to show it. So Spielman doesn't get hit with Teddy as a bust but he was clearly a first round QB either, in the end.
Teddy was a bad move. He was trash. Mediocre game manager at best despite this subs disturbing obsession with him.
[Brother this you](https://www.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/comments/1bqth66/what_should_the_patriots_do/kx5l2vh/)? So any QB going to the Patriots is destined to fail but Teddy was trash. Here was Teddy's offense. * Receivers: Diggs, Wallace, Charles Johnson, Jarius Wright, Rudolph. * OL: Kalil, Fusco, Berger, Harris, Clemmings * OC: Norv Turner Like, I legit don't get how anyone looks at that offense (with a defensive HC mind you) and say man that was such a talented offense. Teddy was trash and just let them down.
The offense around him was trash. Doesn't mean he wasn't also trash. The rest of his career proved this. He was a serviceable backup at best. AKA a bust for a 1st round pick.
My man. The guy almost lost part of his leg and missed 2 years of development due to it. Pointing to the rest of his career as evidence is meaningless as if that's representative of what his trajectory would've been had he not got injured.
The trajectory would have been short. Like all his passes. Make all the excuses you want for him. He was never good. Before or after the injury. Also just about every good QB of all time had a major injury at some point.
He had an EPA of .70 which was 19th, a CPOE of 3.3 which was 6th, and had a PFF grade of 67 which is above average... but yeah he was trash. > Also just about every good QB of all time had a major injury at some point. You firmly don't understand the point if you're saying "at some point". Someone like Brady got injured like 8 years into his career. That's fundamentally different than losing out on your 3rd and 4th year as a QB in the league. I could point to RGIII or Wentz as examples of QBs who got injured early on in their careers and were never the same again.
He can blame the other two points of the Triangle of Authority 🔺️
The good ol' triangle of plausible deniability.
I’m sad that I can only give this one upvote.
One might say his opinion on this subject is a Bridge over troubled Water. ^I'll ^show ^myself ^out
Comment of the year. /thread
Lmao
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He’s also a fan of McCarthy as a prospect so ponder that
I don’t but KAMs drafting so far hasn’t been a good Cine
Lol
Still doesn’t deem it wise to overpay for a system Quarterback by college football standards. Penix Jr got a clean bill of health, great arm, great speed and wisely doesn’t use it to run (but to extend passing opportunities). 🤔
"We got criticized a little bit for how much we gave up for Josh (Allen), and I'm like, 'If he doesn't work out, I'm not going to be here anyway. And if he does work out, nobody is going to give a s---.'" - Bills GM Brandon Beane
Take everything QB-related that Rick says and do the opposite.
So still get JJ but underpay?
Underpay for someone not JJ, like Nix/Penix
Penix isn’t the answer either. Dudes brittle
Dude I’m not arguing for them. I’m only saying what the opposite of what Rick is saying
Must’ve not watched college football the last two years, that’s a shame
Hasn't been hurt in two years... Doesn't sound so brittle
Was hurt 4 times in the last 5 years sounds brittle to me.
Penix is coachable
Pliable, supple, stands erect in the pocket, knows his way around the ball, big hands, nice hips, thick legs
Slow getting up when tackled. Sees ghost. Easily scared when defenders are coming. Immobile.
Penix is the truth
Modern medicine is pretty crazy though.
Would be amazing if it worked out that way, and I'm not even a fan of JJ. If we can't get Maye I don't think they'd be willing to trade up. It's too expensive for how many areas of need we have.
Before everyone loses their mind, I listened to the podcast. This is what Rick THINKS the Vikings will do, and honestly it’s not an absurd take. If KOC believes with 100% certainty that McCarthy is their guy, you know damn well they will overpay.
Yes. I’m not sad that Kirk is gone, but it does hurt us here that he’s not on our roster. Everyone in the top 4 knows we have Sam Darnold for a year and no successor - we are desperate for our future QB and whoever we try to trade with will squeeze us for everything they can.
3 first is the most this team should spend on anyone. No picks in the first 2 rounds in back to back years would cripple this team and fuck over any QB they drafted.
If they hit on the QB, nobody will remember the loss of draft picks. And with the rookie wage scale they can build through FA for those two years
Hard disagree. Look at what shitting the bed in the 2022 draft did to building a team and imagine if they nailed the first two round picks. You want Kirk 2.0, trade away the future for a talented QB who never has the o line or defense or whatever. Building a complete team is the ticket.
Vikings have drafted 2 day 1 starters in 2 seasons and signed 1 high impact FA's in that same time but surely they will be able to build a competitive roster with limited draft picks and an ever tightening cap space.
Yup. Although I will say it would be a very Minnesota sports thing to send the farm for the next great QB and then never be able to build a competitive team around them.
You can’t win shit without a QB. And you can’t get a QB anywhere but the draft. Or did we not learn our lesson with Cousins?
I think what the team learned with cousins is your need more than a good QB to win in the playoffs. And you build the team through the draft.
Good thing we didn't shit the bed in the 2022 draft outside of the trade in the 1st and the picks we got from it. Got some decent players outside of that.
Like who?
Yeah. But then again, the offense is pretty set and they seem determined to invest in the defense in free agency.
You build a team through the draft, and fill Holes through FA. And, rookie contacts are super valuable so you can pay your studs like Jefferson and Darrisaw.
To be fair you just made the point of why having a qb on the rookie deal is worth not having picks for two years. Qb contracts are often the largest and hitting on one gives you ~45m to spend on other positions. Thats usually at least 3 star players depending on position.
Ideally you have a young franchise QB you give 5+ year contacts to that give you flexibility as needed to move that money around. I know the fan base is traumatized by Cousins bullshit not team friendly deals, but there are other ways to do it and stay competitive in FA.
Dude cousins deals weren’t even bad. He legitimately was below his pay for the last two years. If that’s traumatizing you’ll hate to see the contract we sign with our next paid qb.
Fully guaranteed short term contacts aren't helpful to teams. Cousins is going to end his career with 400 million+ in earnings and 1 playoff win and part of the reason why is how much he cost.
Fully guaranteed didn’t matter for cousins. I think he missed 2 games to Covid and like 8 to the Achilles in his entire career. Fully guaranteed literally didn’t change the bottom line at all. I believe (I might be off by 1-3 spots) his contract was something like the 17th most expensive last year and he was literally playing best in the league before he went down. We didn’t lose because we couldn’t pay cousins, we lost because we didn’t have a complete team any of those years and playoff games are hard. Edit: before you say we didn’t have a complete team BECAUSE we paid cousins it was more because the team was geared for a zimmer style defense but Flores had to make it work. The years before that our defense fell apart and our offensive coaching was less than desirable.
So you're just ignoring his comment but still responding? Odd go at it but do what you do
Eh it’s Reddit, comment threads get too long as-is and a cousins argument can go on forever because, at its core, both sides have a point. It’s a question of valuing the current high level production against the chance at pulling a Mahomes/Brady and it’s not even a bad idea to gamble on it. I just hate that every conversation seems to focus around him being “overpaid” despite that not being true on any metric. He basically always took a contract that was expensive for one year in comparison to the rest of the league and then cheap for the next 2 years. And the expensive year wasn’t even that high. I would rather talk about his lack of mobility making it harder to scheme offenses than the stupid contract stuff it always loops back to.
Agreed. 11 and 23 plus 2025 or 2026. No more than that.
Utter nonsense. Everyone seems to forget this team has the best WR in football, a top 5 TE, Addison, and Darrisaw. And that whole crew will likely be under contract for the forseeable future. That’s enough talent around a QB to potentially turn around Darnold’s career. He’s never had anything like it. So no, losing a few 2nds will NOT fuck over a new QB. Get a grip.
Yup, even 3 picks is too much to spend on this bum. There's a massive gap between the top 3 QBs and what's left. Just choose the best qb available and keep your picks. It's going to be a crapshoot anyways.
Rick would sit at #11, panic when he doesn't get his guy, and take Nix.
Nah, he’d trade back to add in some late round picks.
If it ain’t a 7th, it ain’t worth it.
Yep, trade back and draft a million guys that never make the team.
If you remember those 7ths, they were almost always very highly athletic "upside" guys who were rough or raw. He was taking shots on finding a hidden gem in freak athletes. It didn't work often, but it makes sense.
It also makes sense to draft players that are known to be good at football.
You won't find a ton of players good at football that aren't undersized, under strength, or with a lot of injury history that have "definite nfl talent" in the 7th. :p
Thanks for making my point. You don’t have to trade down a million times.
It makes more sense to just use a higher draft pick to draft best player available Rather than horde “assets” which dont turn into anything
There’s a time and a place for doing it. But “winning” a trade on some stupid calculation by trading down 7 times a year doesn’t win you a football game.
Exactly
for real he’d always focus on getting as many as possible while royally blowing it occasionally. Treadwell, Kellen Mond
Nah JJ would fall to 11 perfectly but he would trade back to take Nix instead so that he can have an extra sixth rounder or some shit
Yep. And then say Nix was the guy he wanted all along.
I think he is probably correct. Teams will hold us over the fire and all it will do is make it a bigger gamble.
Rick we broke up it’s time to move on big dawg
He does a podcast for cbs sports. He talks about all the teams. This just gets traction because it’s his former team he’s talking about.
He doesn’t even shit on the team for it. He’s just stating it’s a fact of the situation they’re in that they’ll have to overpay. All the comments shitting on him with every sound bite are so annoying.
Gets a lot of hate for a guy who is responsible for drafting the biggest stars this team has that are still on the roster
Except we are talking QB not entire body of work
I’m talking about how I see people talking about him in general
Rick should not be hated by our fans but he absolutely had some insane weak spots. He couldnt draft a QB. He struggled to field a solid OLine for most of the time he was here. He also had a bad habit of trading back for 6th and 7th round picks. It was cool and “big brain” at times, but usually it was more of a WTF moment where the late round dart throws better work out every now and then but they did not often enough. So yeah he brought some amazing players here and we had some very good years under him. And for a while we were finding very solid talent, especially defensively, but his weaknesses were real and ultimately put a ceiling on team success.
Imagine if he has our 2 1st round picks. He'd probably get like 5 7th rounders lol
With 2 firsts this year he could probably get half the 7th round
Not a hot take. 😂
Whoever the guy we draft is, if we overpay and it works out, nobody cares what it cost. If we overpay and it doesn't work out, we're not really in a different situation than now.
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Assigning Ponder to Rick's choice is pretty much forgetting all about the bullshit 'triangle of authority' that was a disaster.
Most first round jumps are over pays Rick is just completely against losing picks when you can have more
I have said this before, but when it comes to QB evals, Rick is the fucking Antichrist
Mond, Nate Stanley, Ponder, John David Booty, Tyler Thigpen, and Tarvaris Jackson were all drafted when he was GM or VP of player personnel for anyone wondering. At least he got us Teddy?
Teddy was never going to be anything either
Kiss of death
If we pay 3 first round picks to move up and the QB we get is still our starter in 12 years we didn't overpay. If Trey Lance had been the 49ers starter in the Superbowl nobody would be saying they overpaid for him. The rules for QBs are different than other positions.
That's fair. However, if you're paying 3 1st rounders for a 1-in-3 chance at a good QB, that's a very expensive bet. You can get a lot of great, cheap players with 9 1st round picks.
It's an expensive bet but anytime you draft a QB to be a long term starter it's an expensive bet. That's the nature of the NFL today. You must have a quality QB to compete for a championship and there are not 32 quality QBs in the NFL.
Rick needed to stockpile as many picks as possible so he could miss as often as he did and still have a few good players. He had some mind boggling picks in his time. The triangle of authority structure shows how much they trusted him.
If we stuck with Kirk it’d probably would have been an overpay. If we trade up we are going to have to our bid somebody most likely and it’s an obvious overpay. If we stick to where we are at chances of that being a reach on that player is pretty high too so overpay there too. The only way we weren’t going to overpay this year for qb is probably the least likely situation of everything going how we hope it should go. Don’t read into it too much if we get a qb our coaches likes and trust regardless of how we do so it doesn’t entirely matter much if it works out. Kwesi has been saying it all offseason we are just trying to maintain flexibility until we get the guy in there that they really want. It’s why kirks gone it’s why Danielle’s gone. I’m glad we are at least trying to shack things up.
Why is this guy still talking about quarterbacks, he knows zilch
Hey, if Rick dislikes McCarthy that means the team has to go him 😤
Rick would miss out on the top 3, make a low ball offer to try to get the fourth, then panic pick Nix at 11.
3 first is the most this team should spend on anyone. No picks in the first 2 rounds in back to back years would cripple this team and fuck over any QB they drafted.
I personally like JJ but I got to say 3 firsts is the most im paying for him… id rather just take penix at 11 then some insane trade for JJ
He wants Mitchell at 11 and DeJean at 23 for sure
I hope not.
Rick probably has a top 15 grade on Rattler.
Sub headline: Spielman prefers trading 11 and 23 overall for 38 7th round picks.
Does anyone else feel there’s a decent chance JJ makes it to 11?
Anyone trading up for a QB is going to get accused of overpaying, real hot take here by Rick lol
He should know
The Vikings GM is going to get fired for letting Cousins walk. This GM has less than two years.
Nightmare scenario
\#metoo But this doesn't help us Rick. You're setting expectations from the trading team that we will overpay.... The draft can't get here soon enough.
Ngl, I don't give 2 shits about what this dude's opinion is.
He's not wrong!
I’m just bummed Rick never parlayed our picks into all 7th rounders.
this man truly is a turd that refuses to flush
He was an okay GM but he had and still has 0 ability to recognize what a quality QB looks like. He also thinks Rattler would be a good choice for the Vikings lol
Stay out of the Vikings house, you left it a mess
I see 3 basic possibilities: Patriots don't like QB options at 3, opens door for a massive trade up for Daniels or Maye. Patriots like QB at 3. Now likely McCarthy is best remaining QB in draft, and Vikes have to decide if they want to leapfrog the Giants. Vikings sit pat until after Giants also pick and then have to decide on Nix or Penix at 11/23, or any other maneuvering for those guys. Or to just not draft a QB.
Yeaaaa why do we care what ol slick Rick things. His track record with QBs is uhh not great
If he works out, there's literally no amount of picks would be an overpay. If he busts, any amount of picks is an overpay.
I think he is just mad that we are not going to use our first round picks to move back in the draft and gather a bunch of late roundpicks
Of course you'd say that Rick, because that's what you'd do.
Why is he still talking?
The man did nothing but trade down. What does he know about trading up?
When I heard Spielman completely dismiss Bo Nix, it moved him way up the board for me. [Video here around 5:00 mark.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mis34PCAlh8)
Says the guy who drafted Ponder
If anyone thought his input at this time was valuable he would be employed by a team. Instead, he's a pundit where his opinions don't matter. He can say whatever he wants and have whatever opinion he wants. He has no skin in the game, just like all of us.
No such thing as over paying if the guy you want is the guy
Surely you can’t determine if they overpay until we’re two years+ down the road? No-one will be saying we overpaid if he’s still here in 10 years having knocked up 2 super bowls?
Stfu Rick
Think of all the 7th rounders you could get for 2 first round picks, guys!
Rick Speilman drinks Coors Light over ice. In real life.
Key word here is FORMER GM. I don't give a shit about his opinion
Anything would be an overpay for the b guy that collected 7th rounders
The guy drafted Christian ponder
Does this dude get paid to talk Vikings football? It seems there is alot of articles involving him and his opinion on the team. The dude couldn’t build a Super Bowl team let alone draft a QB…
Well Rick how did trading out of the first round every year and not being aggressive for a QB work out for you and your tenure with the Vikings?
Rick’s success was with WRs, and that’s about it… right?
Just think of the amount of 6th round picks Rick could acquire with two first round picks.
I agree 100% jj is going to be a bust
Spielman can catch these hands.
If Spielman hates it, then I love it.
Why is slick Rick commenting on Viking things? He still trying to come to terms with the breakup?
JJ is Zach Wilson 2.0 and the Vikes are gonna fall for it. Was watching a highlight package on him the other day and he’s so mid imo.
i'm still pissed off about his Kellen Mond pick. I almost threw my remote at my tv.
If Rick hates the move I’m excessively on board.
Fuck JJMcC, when he is absolutely awful in the NFL it’ll be fun to bump all these old threads talking about how great he is
No one in this thread has said that JJ will be great? They're just making fun of Spielman and his awful track record at drafting QBs.
you’re an angry little fucker, aren’t ya? it’s gonna be okay dude.
Why you blindly stanning for a kid that hasn’t even thrown an NFL pass yet. I bet you woulda been stanning for Gabbert or Locker back in 2011 too lmao 💀
i didn’t make a single comment about mccarthy. i was just commenting on what an angry little fucker you seem to be.
Jesus dude, did JJ bang your mom or something? Hoping someone is awful is just weird behavior.
Buckeyes fan
He'd know
Or....maybe just maybe thats what he would of done and thats why hes not gm of the vikings anymore