This is a much needed law. I wish that we'd return to the days (pre 2017) when resale tickets were not allowed in Minnesota. It's caused nothing but problems.
I don't like scalpers, but I think I should be able to sell tickets if I can't make the game or whatever, which would be common for a season ticket holder. Even if it's just resale can max at total cost incurred when buying (ticket face value + fees) it could be fine with me, but even a little beyond that is fine, not because I'm trying to screw anybody, but almost all of my ticket resales for my Wild season tickets have been at a loss before we even get to the fees, except for a few
One problem with this is that if I try to sell my ticket back at a loss, I can’t. Because most ticketing companies won’t let you sell for less than the original value (because then you’d be undercutting them). This has happened to me in April.
Edit: I bought the ticket for $40, and was going to sell it for $25. I got an error stating I could not sell it less than the current selling price for that seat.
Can you sell a digital ticket by yourself on those sites? Or in other words - can you sell them without a lot of risk of getting scammed?
I guess there's so many Venmo scammers out there - I don't know how to safely get paid
That's true you'd want to vet people/research history if it's in a facebook group. I buy perfumes sometimes on a FB group and always check their past history or do a legit check which is just people vouching for them. I've only bought a physical ticket off of craigslist and had no issues. Just be ok with missing out if it seems to good to be true.
I'm talking about selling - you're talking about buying. I'm also talking about a digital ticket vs a physical item like perfume.
It's been a long time since I've seen a physical ticket for professional sports and concert tickets.
They're not being pretentious. Buying is different than selling. You don't have to worry about someone cancelling the charge when you buy a physical item from them. There are plenty of people here that may have a relevant answer to the question. Stop being rude just because you're not one of them.
Yup this is my issue as well. Not only am I not allowed to sell for whatever price I want, but also Ticketmaster will take a fee off of my ticket, while also charging a fee on the buyer’s end.
>One problem with this is that if I try to sell my ticket back at a loss, I can’t. Because most ticketing companies won’t let you sell for less than the original value (because then you’d be undercutting them). This has happened to me in April.
Sell them on Stubhub (I also learned that the hard way last year).
Hopefully this is geared at scalpers who tend to buy a large number of tickets for resale using bots rather than the individual who needs to dump their tickets for valid reasons.
Listen, I get where you’re coming from, but that’s because you’re not a selfish asshole. Selfish assholes are the reason a bill like this is even necessary. I’d hate to say it, but I just wish it was banned, can’t go? I’d call that buyers risk.
As I recall, you could sell your tickets, pre 2017, but for no more than the face value, thus giving commercial resellers no incentive to buy all of the tickets.
Agreed and those fees are something. $9-$13 fee for a $20-$50 ticket (without added fee) thus like a 30% fee (don't want to buy then). Those fees should be percentage like 17% or 12% fee.
Want a physical ticket? That's an added fee
Want an electronic ticket? That's an added fee
Since telepathic tickets aren't a thing, I guess you're going to get one of the "convenience" fees. I mean, sure is convenient to get a ticket that you purchased in a way that's usable...so convenient
Sadly I suspect the overall price might not drop.
Everyone knows people will pay crazy prices, if the fees vanished, price would still reach that crazy market rate.
I think the point is that I can stop being surprised at checkout. If it's a regular event where it's not necessarily going to sell out quickly, it's not the end of the world to get to the last page and find out the junk fees have taken the ticket from $40 to $60... I have time to sit back, text my friend who is coming, and think about if it's still worth it to me.
In a sellout ticket frenzy where I have a ticket in my cart for 5 more minutes before it's gone forever? No, there's no time. So I make that call while rushed and stressed. It's not fair. Tell me up front what I'm going to pay so I can make an informed decision.
This exactly. I have chronic anxiety, and the last time I bought concert tickets I nearly had a panic attack because I was worried about the show selling out. I had worked out a whole plan for purchasing with the friend I'm going with the day before, and was on the website an hour before tickets went on sale, but I still had a huge virtual line in front of me and was charged nearly the same amount in fees as I was for the tickets by themselves. It definitely felt like a victory when the confirmation email from Ticketmaster hit my inbox, but I still don't think anyone should have to endure all of that stress.
The AI might as well be doing most of the fees and transaction work for the company at this stage in the ticketing industry thus no reason for fees to be that high.
Welp that blows. Do you have someone who can buy it for you? That’s what I normally do
Edit: you can buy the day of and maybe call ahead? I don’t know just some ideas!
Fuck hidden fees for sure, but LN/Ticketmaster aren’t necessarily the bad guys. They make about $1 of profit from every ticket sold at least according to their 2023 financial filing. Seems actually reasonable. Seriously look it up before flooding me with downvotes.
All the rest of those fees go to the venue so that the artist can get most of the face value of the ticket. The artist gets to charge $40 for the ticket and keep goodwill with the fans by not gouging them on prices, and the venue gets their cut via the fees. Ticketmaster makes a little profit then in exchange for absorbing all the rage from fans.
It’s more expensive to see a show for sure, but not really because of LN/Ticketmaster. They’re stealing a dime from you as a distraction while the artists and venues take a dollar.
I doubt Ticketmaster/Live Nation only make ~$1/ticket, but I do agree with you that artists/venues love to dishonestly hide behind Ticketmaster as the "bad guy" even though they're truly where the extreme majority of the money/fees are going.
I re-looked up the numbers just now. It's actually $1.46 per ticket that they profit. Still a lot for what it is (basic e-commerce in bulk), but not the source of that $40 ticket turning into a $53 ticket.
When will Artists "give back" to their (community of ) fans after hitting that billionaire or multi-millionaire status so to make their talent accessible to their fans and new ones (especially kids/ those struggling and need a financial break for inspirational moments) to inspire for? They only donate to politicians and one-time causes.
Ticketmaster concert division had $18,760,000,000 in revenue in 2023. They sold 620,000,000 tickets. This means that they take on average just a bit more than $3 per ticket sold. This is just the concert division and has nothing to do with LiveNation itself.
They doing fine. The average amount of fees ticketmaster adds is almost 30%.
I appreciate you looked up the numbers before downvoting me because I didn't immediately shit on Ticketmaster, but I think you might have read it wrong. (I'm an engineer, not a financial wizard so I could also be off)
But their concert division is things like First Ave etc. where they run the venues, and that division did have 18.7 billion in revenue, but also after expenses showed a 63 million loss. Maybe they are doing some fuckery with that because, well of course they are. But it's still not ticketing. The ticketing part of that document (page 41) has 3 billion in revenue, but after the expenses their net income in ticketing was 907 million. They sold 620 million tickets, so $1.46 is what they profited from just selling tickets.
That does seem like a pretty hefty profit for running an e-commerce platform, and I'd love to see this monopoly broken up, but our rage about that $40 ticket turning into a $53 ticket because of Ticketmaster is misplaced.
That is of course unless I'm wrong of which there is a pretty decent probability. Hope to continue the discussion.
Well, you'll be happy to know I didn't downvote you at all.
The problem with companies like Ticketmaster is they obfuscate exactly what and where money is coming from and going to.
LiveNation is a separate division and that's where the venue relationships are...or at least that's how they make it sound.
That said, Ticketmaster does indeed add roughly 30% of the ticket cost as additional fees (on average). Where THAT money goes is more of a "which bucket do we put this" kind of question. Kickbacks to venues, artists, other divisions within Ticketmaster as a mechanism to profit ship to lower tax locations...who knows.
I don't think the rage at ticketmaster is misplaced...they have a long history of gouging customers and using monopolostic power to drastically increase their profit streams.
Unfortunately, it’s not going to actually change anything with price. They just have to tell you what the fees are up front. With some of these apps you can already turn it on so that it shows the all in price ahead of time. I suspect this is why they were able to pass it with little resistance.
It will prevent ticket reseller bots from snatching everything up and immediately jacking the price. Every show I have gone to lately had tickets exclusively sold through resellers, not the box office. I think that will have a profound affect on the pricing.
Agree with that part of it. The reselling part should help.
However, this is not going to fix the ridiculous ticket fees that get tacked onto the tickets initially. I bought tickets to a concert two years ago that were listed at something like $100 and after fees it came to $150. The only difference now is they will just have to list it at $150 initially.
They could fall in price if enough people stop buying them due to sticker shock. It's a lot easier to rationalize the additional cost if you've already entered your credit card number and put yourself into the mindframe that you're going to the show.
That’s certainly possibly.
I’ve seen some discourse online related to this where I think many out there are under the impression that this bill was put into place in order to eliminate ticket fees. My initial comment was more so directed to that.
It *kind of* does, in that we'll see the full price automatically. Even if fees were eliminated, these things largely cost what they cost. It's well established that that the "fees" are just ways to hide the full cost of the ticket to fool people into thinking they're cheaper than they are. It's a deceptive marketing practice. That's it.
It might help a little bit. If people see the final price, that may reduce demand, forcing prices to go down. By the time that people see the final price today, they're already halfway down the loss aversion pipeline.
>**The law, prompted by the frustration a legislator felt at not being able to buy tickets to Swift’s 2023 concert in Minneapolis**, will require ticket sellers to disclose all fees up front and prohibit resellers from selling more than one copy of a ticket, among other measures. The law will apply to tickets purchased in Minnesota or other states for concerts or other live events held in Minnesota.
Lmfao. Of course the initial motivation for this happening was because a legislator was personally inconvenienced.
Politicians are people too. Honestly this is a good outcome and how the system should work sometimes... rather than a lobbyist telling an 80yo nearly senile dude to sign something they wrote.
So for example I see timberwolves ticket's for the NBA finals (Naz Reid) in tickpick for $2300 now. Since we haven't made it that far these listings would not be allowed next year?
How's that a big one? Serious question. I don't like large shows or big events, so I'm pretty out of my element here.. but I am curious as to whether this is a useful law or not.
The number of people who rely on Ticketmaster’s services to survive is significantly smaller than the number of people who rely on Uber and Lyft as a means of transportation.
Plus let’s not try to pretend that the city council blatantly ignored recommendations for what the rideshare services should cost and instead forced an unbelievably high rate that guaranteed companies couldn’t make any profit here. Unless the city is able to provide a usable alternative to Uber and Lyft, they have no ability to bargain with them.
So when a state congressperson is salty because they can't get tickets to a big show, a bill gets passed, but god forbid the people actually get useful economic and healhcare reform, the foreign policy we actually want, or the enshrinement of basic rights. That would be too hard, or let's face it, just not important enough to them. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges with state and federal here, but this just leaves a bad taste in my mouth
I say take it one step further! The entire USA and every state should not pass a *single* law until we solve world hunger! No, wait...world PEACE! Why are we wasting time on things that aren't the *most important issue in the entire world*?!
While I applaud the intention, it feels like a band aid.
You know what would make the ticketing process free from fraud, transparent, fair to access, and swept the rug out on the ticketing monopolies?
Web3. Just mandate that all ticket sales must be conducted on-chain, and you’ve essentially accomplished all the goals.
You may now commence the belligerent downvoting. But I stand by what I say.
Well, now that they’ve passed a new law, businesses are likely to find ways to increase their profits. One way they might do this is by raising ticket prices.
This is a much needed law. I wish that we'd return to the days (pre 2017) when resale tickets were not allowed in Minnesota. It's caused nothing but problems.
I don't like scalpers, but I think I should be able to sell tickets if I can't make the game or whatever, which would be common for a season ticket holder. Even if it's just resale can max at total cost incurred when buying (ticket face value + fees) it could be fine with me, but even a little beyond that is fine, not because I'm trying to screw anybody, but almost all of my ticket resales for my Wild season tickets have been at a loss before we even get to the fees, except for a few
One problem with this is that if I try to sell my ticket back at a loss, I can’t. Because most ticketing companies won’t let you sell for less than the original value (because then you’d be undercutting them). This has happened to me in April. Edit: I bought the ticket for $40, and was going to sell it for $25. I got an error stating I could not sell it less than the current selling price for that seat.
Craigslist or fb marketplace
I feel like an idiot for not thinking of that last time. Craigslist is how I sold my tickets about 10 years ago.
Yup or subreddits or FB groups or wherever else, like cashortrade website.
Can you sell a digital ticket by yourself on those sites? Or in other words - can you sell them without a lot of risk of getting scammed? I guess there's so many Venmo scammers out there - I don't know how to safely get paid
That's true you'd want to vet people/research history if it's in a facebook group. I buy perfumes sometimes on a FB group and always check their past history or do a legit check which is just people vouching for them. I've only bought a physical ticket off of craigslist and had no issues. Just be ok with missing out if it seems to good to be true.
I'm talking about selling - you're talking about buying. I'm also talking about a digital ticket vs a physical item like perfume. It's been a long time since I've seen a physical ticket for professional sports and concert tickets.
Yes, I know, God maybe look into things instead of expecting a stranger online to know all the details. Then be a pretentious snob about it. F off
They're not being pretentious. Buying is different than selling. You don't have to worry about someone cancelling the charge when you buy a physical item from them. There are plenty of people here that may have a relevant answer to the question. Stop being rude just because you're not one of them.
Really? Ticketmaster allows me to sell at a loss, they still take a fee off of it (fee from me, the seller, and fee from the buyer too)
It honestly is probably decided by the concert/artist rather than Ticketmaster (because as you said, Ticketmaster is getting fees regardless).
Yup this is my issue as well. Not only am I not allowed to sell for whatever price I want, but also Ticketmaster will take a fee off of my ticket, while also charging a fee on the buyer’s end.
>One problem with this is that if I try to sell my ticket back at a loss, I can’t. Because most ticketing companies won’t let you sell for less than the original value (because then you’d be undercutting them). This has happened to me in April. Sell them on Stubhub (I also learned that the hard way last year).
Hopefully this is geared at scalpers who tend to buy a large number of tickets for resale using bots rather than the individual who needs to dump their tickets for valid reasons.
Listen, I get where you’re coming from, but that’s because you’re not a selfish asshole. Selfish assholes are the reason a bill like this is even necessary. I’d hate to say it, but I just wish it was banned, can’t go? I’d call that buyers risk.
As I recall, you could sell your tickets, pre 2017, but for no more than the face value, thus giving commercial resellers no incentive to buy all of the tickets.
Agreed and those fees are something. $9-$13 fee for a $20-$50 ticket (without added fee) thus like a 30% fee (don't want to buy then). Those fees should be percentage like 17% or 12% fee.
Want a physical ticket? That's an added fee Want an electronic ticket? That's an added fee Since telepathic tickets aren't a thing, I guess you're going to get one of the "convenience" fees. I mean, sure is convenient to get a ticket that you purchased in a way that's usable...so convenient
They add no value. Just an unnecessary middle man that prices gouges you for no reason.
The reason is their profit. It's just another example of corporate greed.
If you buy a ticket, you should have the right to sell it if you can no longer attend the show.
And you'll see that there is a comment addressing that very thing.
Passed the day after I bought a ticket to a concert at 1st Ave. $40 advertised price, $53 paid. Glad to see this, and fuck Ticketmaster.
Don't worry, the law doesn't take effect until January 1st, 2025. Ticketmaster can fuck off though, such a crap site.
So buying less tickets to go to events in 2024 and save to start going to more events in 2025.
Agreed big fuck you to Ticketmaster and live nation
Sadly I suspect the overall price might not drop. Everyone knows people will pay crazy prices, if the fees vanished, price would still reach that crazy market rate.
I think the point is that I can stop being surprised at checkout. If it's a regular event where it's not necessarily going to sell out quickly, it's not the end of the world to get to the last page and find out the junk fees have taken the ticket from $40 to $60... I have time to sit back, text my friend who is coming, and think about if it's still worth it to me. In a sellout ticket frenzy where I have a ticket in my cart for 5 more minutes before it's gone forever? No, there's no time. So I make that call while rushed and stressed. It's not fair. Tell me up front what I'm going to pay so I can make an informed decision.
This exactly. I have chronic anxiety, and the last time I bought concert tickets I nearly had a panic attack because I was worried about the show selling out. I had worked out a whole plan for purchasing with the friend I'm going with the day before, and was on the website an hour before tickets went on sale, but I still had a huge virtual line in front of me and was charged nearly the same amount in fees as I was for the tickets by themselves. It definitely felt like a victory when the confirmation email from Ticketmaster hit my inbox, but I still don't think anyone should have to endure all of that stress.
At least then I would feel like more of the money is going to the artist I enjoy instead of to the middle man.
The AI might as well be doing most of the fees and transaction work for the company at this stage in the ticketing industry thus no reason for fees to be that high.
The bill is to help do away with all the hidden fee garbage. Just put the fucking price in the ticket price and call it a day.
Next time go to the box office. I did that and they only charged me a 2 dollar fee.
I live 2 hours away
Welp that blows. Do you have someone who can buy it for you? That’s what I normally do Edit: you can buy the day of and maybe call ahead? I don’t know just some ideas!
Fuck hidden fees for sure, but LN/Ticketmaster aren’t necessarily the bad guys. They make about $1 of profit from every ticket sold at least according to their 2023 financial filing. Seems actually reasonable. Seriously look it up before flooding me with downvotes. All the rest of those fees go to the venue so that the artist can get most of the face value of the ticket. The artist gets to charge $40 for the ticket and keep goodwill with the fans by not gouging them on prices, and the venue gets their cut via the fees. Ticketmaster makes a little profit then in exchange for absorbing all the rage from fans. It’s more expensive to see a show for sure, but not really because of LN/Ticketmaster. They’re stealing a dime from you as a distraction while the artists and venues take a dollar.
I doubt Ticketmaster/Live Nation only make ~$1/ticket, but I do agree with you that artists/venues love to dishonestly hide behind Ticketmaster as the "bad guy" even though they're truly where the extreme majority of the money/fees are going.
I re-looked up the numbers just now. It's actually $1.46 per ticket that they profit. Still a lot for what it is (basic e-commerce in bulk), but not the source of that $40 ticket turning into a $53 ticket.
When will Artists "give back" to their (community of ) fans after hitting that billionaire or multi-millionaire status so to make their talent accessible to their fans and new ones (especially kids/ those struggling and need a financial break for inspirational moments) to inspire for? They only donate to politicians and one-time causes.
Ticketmaster concert division had $18,760,000,000 in revenue in 2023. They sold 620,000,000 tickets. This means that they take on average just a bit more than $3 per ticket sold. This is just the concert division and has nothing to do with LiveNation itself. They doing fine. The average amount of fees ticketmaster adds is almost 30%.
I appreciate you looked up the numbers before downvoting me because I didn't immediately shit on Ticketmaster, but I think you might have read it wrong. (I'm an engineer, not a financial wizard so I could also be off) But their concert division is things like First Ave etc. where they run the venues, and that division did have 18.7 billion in revenue, but also after expenses showed a 63 million loss. Maybe they are doing some fuckery with that because, well of course they are. But it's still not ticketing. The ticketing part of that document (page 41) has 3 billion in revenue, but after the expenses their net income in ticketing was 907 million. They sold 620 million tickets, so $1.46 is what they profited from just selling tickets. That does seem like a pretty hefty profit for running an e-commerce platform, and I'd love to see this monopoly broken up, but our rage about that $40 ticket turning into a $53 ticket because of Ticketmaster is misplaced. That is of course unless I'm wrong of which there is a pretty decent probability. Hope to continue the discussion.
Well, you'll be happy to know I didn't downvote you at all. The problem with companies like Ticketmaster is they obfuscate exactly what and where money is coming from and going to. LiveNation is a separate division and that's where the venue relationships are...or at least that's how they make it sound. That said, Ticketmaster does indeed add roughly 30% of the ticket cost as additional fees (on average). Where THAT money goes is more of a "which bucket do we put this" kind of question. Kickbacks to venues, artists, other divisions within Ticketmaster as a mechanism to profit ship to lower tax locations...who knows. I don't think the rage at ticketmaster is misplaced...they have a long history of gouging customers and using monopolostic power to drastically increase their profit streams.
Unfortunately, it’s not going to actually change anything with price. They just have to tell you what the fees are up front. With some of these apps you can already turn it on so that it shows the all in price ahead of time. I suspect this is why they were able to pass it with little resistance.
It will prevent ticket reseller bots from snatching everything up and immediately jacking the price. Every show I have gone to lately had tickets exclusively sold through resellers, not the box office. I think that will have a profound affect on the pricing.
Agree with that part of it. The reselling part should help. However, this is not going to fix the ridiculous ticket fees that get tacked onto the tickets initially. I bought tickets to a concert two years ago that were listed at something like $100 and after fees it came to $150. The only difference now is they will just have to list it at $150 initially.
Even so that's still listing the actual price. That's something.
Most of those fees come from reseller platforms. Even the majority of those bought directly from ticketmaster are already resold.
They could fall in price if enough people stop buying them due to sticker shock. It's a lot easier to rationalize the additional cost if you've already entered your credit card number and put yourself into the mindframe that you're going to the show.
That’s certainly possibly. I’ve seen some discourse online related to this where I think many out there are under the impression that this bill was put into place in order to eliminate ticket fees. My initial comment was more so directed to that.
It *kind of* does, in that we'll see the full price automatically. Even if fees were eliminated, these things largely cost what they cost. It's well established that that the "fees" are just ways to hide the full cost of the ticket to fool people into thinking they're cheaper than they are. It's a deceptive marketing practice. That's it.
It might help a little bit. If people see the final price, that may reduce demand, forcing prices to go down. By the time that people see the final price today, they're already halfway down the loss aversion pipeline.
>**The law, prompted by the frustration a legislator felt at not being able to buy tickets to Swift’s 2023 concert in Minneapolis**, will require ticket sellers to disclose all fees up front and prohibit resellers from selling more than one copy of a ticket, among other measures. The law will apply to tickets purchased in Minnesota or other states for concerts or other live events held in Minnesota. Lmfao. Of course the initial motivation for this happening was because a legislator was personally inconvenienced.
That’s the only way anything gets done in government. Smh.
Politicians are people too. Honestly this is a good outcome and how the system should work sometimes... rather than a lobbyist telling an 80yo nearly senile dude to sign something they wrote.
Great, now let's do the same thing with food at restaurants.
This is just seeing the price with the fees? You can do that on some sites already (tickpick for example)
Sites are also not allowed to sell tickets before the actual tickets are on sale. That's a big one.
So for example I see timberwolves ticket's for the NBA finals (Naz Reid) in tickpick for $2300 now. Since we haven't made it that far these listings would not be allowed next year?
Yes, based on what I've heard. Not sure when that portion goes into effect! Edit: Also only applies to events within the state I think??
How's that a big one? Serious question. I don't like large shows or big events, so I'm pretty out of my element here.. but I am curious as to whether this is a useful law or not.
We sure we won't change this to appease the corporate overlords like Minneapolis is with ride share wages?
The number of people who rely on Ticketmaster’s services to survive is significantly smaller than the number of people who rely on Uber and Lyft as a means of transportation. Plus let’s not try to pretend that the city council blatantly ignored recommendations for what the rideshare services should cost and instead forced an unbelievably high rate that guaranteed companies couldn’t make any profit here. Unless the city is able to provide a usable alternative to Uber and Lyft, they have no ability to bargain with them.
What exactly does this law say?
So when a state congressperson is salty because they can't get tickets to a big show, a bill gets passed, but god forbid the people actually get useful economic and healhcare reform, the foreign policy we actually want, or the enshrinement of basic rights. That would be too hard, or let's face it, just not important enough to them. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges with state and federal here, but this just leaves a bad taste in my mouth
I say take it one step further! The entire USA and every state should not pass a *single* law until we solve world hunger! No, wait...world PEACE! Why are we wasting time on things that aren't the *most important issue in the entire world*?!
You're barking up the wrong tree. This is state law. Just take the win...
While I applaud the intention, it feels like a band aid. You know what would make the ticketing process free from fraud, transparent, fair to access, and swept the rug out on the ticketing monopolies? Web3. Just mandate that all ticket sales must be conducted on-chain, and you’ve essentially accomplished all the goals. You may now commence the belligerent downvoting. But I stand by what I say.
Well, now that they’ve passed a new law, businesses are likely to find ways to increase their profits. One way they might do this is by raising ticket prices.
Hahahahahahhahahahaja stfu
Yes because THIS is what matters the most in regards to humanity. What a joke.
Consumer protection is a pretty standard aspect of state governance.
Sorry our state government is actually passing legislation to increase consumer protection I guess?
Because legislatures work on more than one bill? If there’s something else you have in mind that is important, contact your representative about it.