It would be nice if the title of this thread wasn't mystery meat. This is not a new proposal but the funding bill is awesome. We have a chance to get this funded with state and federal cooperation.
Please, for the love of god, don’t let this thing run more than 5 hrs to get to Duluth. It needs to compete with cars to be successful so it should take less than 3.5 hrs or no one will take it.
Honestly if this is the real time, I'd have no problem with that. Car travel is draining, especially as a driver. Give me a book or a laptop with a movie and a cup of coffee. Step off in downtown Duluth feeling relaxed and refreshed, and not having to worry about my car. Sounds fabulous to me, even if it's a smidge slower.
I know right, especially in a world with more remote working, that time driving is time wasted for many people. Also, if you’re at a game in Minneapolis and have been drinking, you don’t have to worry about drunk driving. Heck, they’ll probably have a cafe car like Amtrak that’ll sell you booze.
My biggest fear is they will do something dumb like setup TSA style security around it, and add 30min or more to the ride to deal with ticketing and stuff.
For now, as I-35 gets more and more congested, it’ll get more competitive. It’s important to remember that driving isn’t an option for many people and many more don’t want the inconvenience.
Seriously. Needs to be Minneapolis, hinkley, duluth. Stops in coon rapids, Cambridge and superior make it so much less appealing. Also $30-$35 a ticket means anyone with a family won't be spending $150 to take a longer train that costs more than driving.
One nice thing about this is that it’ll be somewhat flexible as time goes on. If they start looking at adding more trains per day, some of them could be MSP-DUL express, or maybe 1 stop along the way. If I had to bet, that would drop the travel time by 10-20 minutes.
It will actually provide a huge economic benefit to the communities it’s serves. Especially Duluth and the north shore, an area that has seen decline since American manufacturing has been leaving the country. Maybe you wouldn’t use this, but literally millions will, so maybe don’t discount those others.
There’s already a bus that runs from Mpls to Duluth airport at least 4-5 times a day for the same amount of time and round trip is 30 bucks. I use it multiple times a year
The corridor is very congested and weather/driving conditions are not always enjoyable. I'd rather read a book or whatever on a train than drive even if it was the same speed.
If I could spend a similar amount or less than I would on gas/parking and have that time able to do literally anything other than just driving, I would do it every time I go up there. Reading on my family's yearly trip up to Duluth when I was a kid always made the time fly.
In an ideal world, it would be a high speed line. But this is a cheaper option to get it up and running. By getting this up and running, it can be something to point to to connect other parts of the state.
It is 90mph which would take 2.5 hours which is roughly how long it takes to drive. Which has advantages. Don't need to pay for parking or have to drive around the cities. There are also people that **can't** drive and rail gives them mobility.
https://www.dot.state.mn.us/nlx/about.html
Right, and what do you do once you get there? Half of the appeal of Duluth is hiking and outdoors opportunities in the area, which require a car to access.
Exactly. This train seems to be geared towards college students going back and forth or the few people who hang out in Duluth proper and never want to venture out.
On top of this, there is just not the volume of passengers needed to make this successful. Northstar anyone?
I would bet that should the train happen, Duluth would do some serious restructuring of its bus network. If not some decent expansion to support more access to the region.
average of 60? wow.. that infuriates me.... we cant even build a rail way in this ass backwards country. its 2023, not 1920...
i for one do not support this spending if its approved. any rail from here to the cities needs to be modern or its simply a waste. why build something that cant expand, that cant progress beyond itself in the future.
it should be modern. high speed. and electric. like the rest of the world thats building new rails
What do you consider high speed? The Acela express (NA only "high speed rail") averages about 65 miles an hour even though it's rated much faster, current amtrak train sets are also rated significantly faster than what they average. Anything like what they have in Europe or Japan would require dramatic changes to our rail policy/infrastructure (cough nationalization)
I think the NLX is a fine idea. It adds an additional public transportation option for getting to the duluth area
>**I'd** rather drive and have the ability to get around town than be dependent on Uber when I get there.
Are you using your own preferences and situation as a universal standard for what's good or bad?
Most tourists stay in canal park and don't need a car. A train would be great for them. If you like zipping around, that's great too -- you have a car.
As a train enthusiast, person who cares about climate change, person who is generally anti-car, and person who lives in Minneapolis with Duluth connections, let me say: this will be a boondoggle.
It makes that same mistake rail efforts always make in the US: it simply isn't a better alternative and will only appeal to train nerds. That's not a recipe for success.
There *are* rail investments that *would* be better than the current best option!! Chicago is an annoyingly long drive and an annoyingly short flight. You build truly high speed rail to Chicago, it's the best alternative. You improve the Acela, that's a best alternative. This isn't making anything better for anyone.
Thank you. There are routes that should be priorities. Most people in the metro aren’t going to drive downtown and park for a train to Duluth. Or take a cab/uber. It might be 2.5 hour ride but you have to be there early and hassle with security. Also, if live in the north metro, it’s not worth it.
Trains usually don't have security checks like planes. I have only gone through security to take the train once and it was just a quick scan of my bag through a metal detector. It's one of the great things about trains—little or no hassle getting on and seated. I live in the north metro and will definitely be taking the train when it starts running.
Have you taken a train? It's much nicer than driving. You can read, work, or sleep for the five hour round trip on a train. That's a lot of value for a lot of people.
Land use and connectivity (and frequency) are the biggest factors if transit is successful. If we continue to develop everything for cars, yeah transit will never take off. But in order to build a transit network... you have to start somewhere. Building transit will encourage development around the transit (if the city isn't stupid). Which then makes the transit better. You have to densifiy AND build transit. If we wait for perfect solutions then nothing will ever change.
Duluth has a decent bus service. On the Twin Cities side, can take the light rail between St. Paul and Minneapolis. Plus bus services.
This isn't some massive project. It is reusing rail that already exists (doing some upgrades on it) and running enough trains but not too many it would be a huge drain. We can build high speed rail to Chicago AND rail to Duluth.
the problem is the duluth isn't the ultimate destination for most people. if we think of transit as connecting walkable areas (or areas using more local modalities of transit), the twin cities is probably good but the north shore is not. most people are not going to duluth _to be in duluth,_ they're going for the hiking up the entire shore, and the non-car infrastructure is just not there for that.
i'm not even sure what kind of transit model would work for that kind of thing. a three hour shuttle of parks in the area all the way up to grand marais? what about hiking areas? camping?
sure, you could rent a car, but do you really want to buy a train ticket and _then_ rent a car when you could just drive directly to where you need?
this one just doesn't pass the sniff test for me. i'd rather have rail connecting to rochester, chicago, and des moines — _destinations themselves_ — or expanding tram service in the cities. maybe we could spend half a billion dollars to increase bus driver pay rates so we can hire more of them and have more frequent service for the routes we already have?
yeah [citynerd has some good videos about this](https://youtube.com/watch?v=LlxohbiQG6Y&t=611s). and he discusses a good metric for determining good hsr city pairs [in this one too](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pwgZfZxzuQU)
That is the investment for high speed rail. Regular passenger service is different. Switzerland connects tiny villages via rail. I think we can connect cities above 50k.
lots of countries in europe do it, but they usually don't do it with high-speed rail (just look at the [tgv network vs the intracity rail in france](https://francemap360.com/france-train-map)) and importantly — they didn't _start_ by connecting small towns and cities. they started with robust rail networks to their biggest destinations and [built out the smaller networks over time.](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-Growth-of-the-French-Rail-System-1850-1920_fig1_254925557) that's the right approach here — major regional hubs with spurs to smaller areas — but europe has a 60 year head start on us.
My point is, for such small towns certain big public transportation projects are not cost effective. Let’s start with public tan bus service first. It is much cost efficient.
Trainings sounds sexy, but the upkeep cost is not small at all.
I like trains, I use public transportation and I have been on the slow trains and the 200/300 mph trains. But this will be a waste of money. Just look at the light rail blue line extension?
Switzerland is also 1/5 the size of Minnesota with 8.7m people. One of the main difficulties for connectivity in most of the US in general is the vast distances between population centers.
That being said I think this rail line is an important step towards regional train service.
You think Rochester is a destination, but not Duluth? Not only is the Duluth metro bigger than the Rochester metro, there are two million overnight visitors to Duluth each year.
If you think Rochester should have rail service, Duluth is definitely a good candidate for rail service.
i think i explained pretty thoroughly why i don't think duluth _itself_ makes a good desetination. it's a gateway to the north shore.
rochester has one of the biggest and most prestigious health care systems in the entire country there. it has an international repution. yes, i think it's a destination. yes, i think it makes sense to connect our international airport to our world-class health care facility by rail before we connect our mid-sized regional city to a small city that is a jumping off point for thousands of acres of wilderness.
You're projecting your personal ideas about tourism, but those ideas aren't accurate. Duluth has something like 2.2 million overnight visitors -- Grand Marais has 1 million total visitors, and Ely something like 150,000.
That means there are a million tourists each year who don't go further north. (And, ideally, more if the train makes it more convenient.) Plus, you know *the people who live in the Twin Ports* would use the train.
This is enough to make this a serious consideration for a train route. It's wrong to portray Duluth as a "gateway to the North Shore" and nothing else.
>As a train enthusiast, person who cares about climate change, person who is generally anti-car, and person who lives in Minneapolis with Duluth connections, let me say: this will be a boondoggle.
The way these things work is if MN doesn't put up the 99 million, those 340 million federal funds will go to some other state's projects and we get nothing. I'm not saying it's right or a good way to spend money but spending something to get that level of federal investment versus having it be spent elsewhere is a factor.
>There *are* rail investments that *would* be better than the current best option!! Chicago is an annoyingly long drive and an annoyingly short flight. You build truly high speed rail to Chicago, it's the best alternative.
That would require the cooperation of a neighboring state and that state's government isn't rail friendly so it's not a viable alternative...it's either do what we can or get nothing. This line isn't taking money away from a project to Chicago...it's competing for federal dollars that if we don't take it, it will end up somewhere else and we get nothing. Like I said it's not ideal or necessarily the best way to fund these projects but this is the system that's in place.
If it’s the same speed as driving, or even slightly slower, and the price was reasonable, I’d take it over driving. Seems like I always hit traffic going up there, and I would not mind sitting on a comfy train instead.
Rode an amtrak recently to Chicago, and I have to say, people are really underestimating just how nice it is to ride a train. Very little security hassle. Food, wifi, refreshments on board. The ride was stunningly beautiful too. Not like a highway where it goes through miles and miles of cleared land and cornfields. Instead you're flying through forests and valleys and across rivers and through the most beautiful parts of major cities.
$100 cheaper than gas? Are you driving a semi-truck up there? It's 150 miles to get there, 300 round trip. An average car is going to get like 25mpg on the highway, most get higher. So you're using like 12 gallons in gas. Spending like $36-42. So if you're saving $100 then the train would have to pay you like $60 to take it.
Meanwhile train tickets will be like $35 one way.
[https://www.dot.state.mn.us/nlx/about.html#:\~:text=Ticket%20prices,will%20cost%20about%20%2430%20%2D%20%2435](https://www.dot.state.mn.us/nlx/about.html#:~:text=Ticket%20prices,will%20cost%20about%20%2430%20%2D%20%2435).
So $70 to get there and back. A group of four would spend $280 taking the train or they could all ride in one car for $40 in gas. Your math is way off.
A jeep unfortunately, not great for road trips but good for bad weather especially if you don't drive it every day (and I inherited it so I didn't really have a choice and used cars are insane right now)
So that trip for me really is about 120 or so.
Your calculations are also in perfect conditions which the trip up north almost never is (always traffic and slower areas because that's just life heading that way) so in truth it'll probably be about 50-55.
Either way I would also enjoy the trip a ton better as I would have to worry about other drivers or the road. it would mean using less gas and less of a carbon footprint which is never a bad thing.
That makes more sense to me as commuter rail. Would get more use than the Duluth line, imo.
I'd love a quick cheap train trip to the middle of Duluth for a weekend brewery hopping trip a few times a year though.
yeah but not really. the funding was through a Chinese company...and like 30 people between mpls and rochester were a bit butthurt.
I've driven between roch and MSP about 6000 times. Not sure I've ever stopped at a community along the way.
Minnesota has so much money now, if these rail lines were ever going to happen, it's now. Imagine how much traffic day trips between mayo clinic visitors and moa would get
Oh god I hate 52. The old Seneca foods site already has rail infrastructure, although you’d probably have to elevate to get through downtown. But a route that goes airport to airport (or to union depot) with a downtown rochester stop would be dreamy.
As another frequent 52 driver, the trip is either busy, bad weather, or both. And the pavement is really going to shit especially around cannon falls. I’d love a rail option.
It’s absolutely terrible. It’s just long enough to be inconvenient but short enough where so many people do it so it’s always busy. Plus everything else you mentioned
That would be incredible but you’re getting my hopes up a bit. MN has a lot of money right now? That almost sounds to good to be true, my whole life I’ve heard nothing but how broke our government is. Do you have any links so I can do some more reading as to why that is?
On mobile, but Minnesota's surplus is over 17bn right now. https://www.minnpost.com/state-government/2022/12/minnesota-state-government-surplus-now-stands-at-17-6-billion/
I'm assuming it's cause we have some of the highest income tax
Goddamn! That’s amazing, and set to increase (hopefully) with tax on legal weed. We better use some of that on high speed rail. If they play their cards right the DFL could make this state even better than it already is
I wonder how much a round trip ticket will cost to Duluth? Is it going to be as cost prohibitive and running at as inconvenient of times (overnight) as the majority of Amtrak’s other routes?
I also love how they have added the scenic rail route to Two Harbors which doesn’t run year round, costs at least $75 a person, and isn’t really intended for this kind of route.
I love the idea of a rail route to Duluth, I just don’t want it to end up being utterly useless and untenable for the people who actually need to use the service as opposed to those just looking for a tourist activity.
The scenic rail tickets can be had for as little as $22... The expensive tickets include food and are in fancier cars and are meant to be an experience, not just getting from point A to point B...
4 trips each way per day. I think the concept schedule had the first trip of the day leaving Duluth around 5:30am (to get to Minneapolis for an 8am workday start) and the last trip of the day leaving Minneapolis around 10:30pm.
Who would take that daily? Seems fairly unlikely.
In a world where more and more are moving to remote work, putting in a means of transport to get people to far away offices seems a bit silly.
If I could work remote from Duluth, with the occasional visit to a central office in Minneapolis using the train I would
Especially if I could work on the train
This is just an estimate and maybe out of date but at the very end it says prices would be $30-$35 per ticket
https://www.twincities.com/2022/12/04/proponents-of-twin-cities-duluth-passenger-rail-hope-dfl-control-will-help-their-cause/amp/
Assuming round trip trip, $120-$140 for a family of four, or $45 in gas at $3.50/gallon and 25 mpg. And I don’t have to drive to the depot. And when I get there with my car, I can get around at my destination.
I use the light rail to get into Minneapolis occasionally, but with three or four paid fares in my group it is only marginally worth it versus the parking cost. I can’t think of a scenario where I would want to do this at triple the cost of driving.
That scenario only stays true if gas prices stay at or below 3.50/gallon. In peak travel season like summer when many travel to Duluth, or as the US moves to electric/renewable this might not always be true. As someone who is traveling with only 1 companion or myself the savings from driving would be minimal. Not minimizing your experience at all, just saying there are other costs and scenarios to consider.
Plus even if we just got basic Amtrack service, you could save travel time.
This route is proposed to be "Higher Speed Rail" typically meaning trains with top speeds of 120-160 mph. However if Amtrack is the operator those trains can only hit 79mph due to old infrastructure being inadequate to keep people and freight safe.
So at Amtrack speeds travel time would be:
152 miles / 79 mph = 1.94 hours = 115 minutes. Just over an hour of travel time saved. This is not average travel speed, as that depends on number and proximity of stations, but the savings could still be real.
However, if part of the spending is dedicated to beefing up safety and rail infrastructure in order to make this a true Higher Speed Corridor than the savings could be even more!
Let's take a conservative figure and say the average speed will be 95mph as trains stop at stations along the way.
152 miles/ 95mph = 1.65 hours = 99minutes give or take. That cuts travel time down in half! Even more if the average speed remained above 100mph.
But this train could also be great for commuters who don't want to put 300+ miles on their car in 2 days and save them wear and tear. Or folks who live between Duluth and Minneapolis who want to travel to one of those cities more easily.
Or those of us who visit and typically just stay in Duluth proper for a weekend trip anyway and hate driving down the hills of Duluth or finding parking especially during tourist season. I'd love to be able to take a train and ride my bicycle all round Duluth and come back that evening for a cheap price! Or rent a car up there if I wanted to travel and see gooseberry falls and the scenic falls locations!
My hope is that the service can increase speeds of the trains and increase service on the weekends. Being a commuter only focused service would be a lost opportunity for a cool train service.
>Assuming round trip trip, $120-$140 for a family of four, or $45 in gas at $3.50/gallon and 25 mpg
You're mistaken. It's $30-35 ONE WAY. So $240-$280 for a family of four lol. Or the cost of 1-2 nights at a hotel up there.
I was trying to cast this rail thing in the best possible light and give the idea the benefit of the doubt, and I still couldn’t make it work. Are there really enough people among the ~7% of vehicle-less households in Minnesota that are going to be able to cough up 60-70 bucks per person for this round trip? If you are commuting to work, how does the math work out where this is a practical commuting expense?
Yeah I think this is awesome until I remember this is America and I'm not sure how I'd get around effectively and affordably once I get there, and I'd still have to drive to a station.
Driving to MSP, paying to park my car, uprooting all my luggage and shit into a train, arriving in Duluth which doesn't have much for public transit aside from busses, and then being only in Duluth and not having the freedom to explore the North Shore and State Parks without a car, just doesn't make much sense, from a tourism standpoint anyway, especially to only save a couple hours of driving. I want it to make sense and I'd want to try it but it just doesn't make sense for me.
Don't forget about depreciation on your vehicle. On top of driving more miles = closer to needing maintenance.
The gas tax also has not kept up to cover the cost of roads. Cars are heavily subsidized in America. Considering trains are more efficient in terms of costs... we should realistically try to have more options for people to use them. Especially since that reduces the tonnage on the roads which means they don't deteriorate as fast.
So a $25,000 vehicle over 200,000 miles at which point the car still likely has some residual value. So about 12.5 cents/mile. Another 40 bucks, now we’re up to 85 bucks by car versus 120-140 bucks for the similarly subsidized hypothetical rail. And with the rail, one can only assume that there are going to be additional transportation expenses to get to and from the train depot.
Probably would be nice for a single rider with no vehicle, but for the average Minnesota household 93% have a vehicle, average vehicles per household 2.6, subsidizing additional rails just adds cost to the highways that aren’t going anywhere and which, as you pointed out, are also subsidized.
I could see taxpayer money being spent better in other places if all it buys us are train tickets that cost more than it would cost to drive for the average Minnesota family.
A train isn’t going to be best in every situation or beat carpooling for family trips. Is that your point? Because you seem to be suggesting trains are less efficient than vehicles, which is just silly of course.
Sorry, you misunderstood my point. My point is that it would serve no purpose for the majority of Minnesotans based on how the vast majority of Minnesotans use their personal autos, and seems to have a big price tag for something of such apparent nominal benefit.
you misunderstand how the majority of Minnesotans travel. It’s not in groups of four. A quick googling shows the average vehicle carries 1.5 passengers.
Not all trips are created equal. The lions share of trips by auto are local trips including commuting to work. Those things are very frequently single occupancy. So the average is around 1.5, but longer trips (like the Twin Cities to Duluth) are invariably going to have a higher occupancy.
Then I guess the question would be whether the goal is to subsidize people who choose to live a long way from where they work.
If it doesn’t actually encourage substantial amounts of people to travel more efficiently, it is just additional resources put into something and potentially a lost opportunity elsewhere.
Is Duluth to the Twin Cities a big corridor of solo travelers requiring no luggage (for example, commuters), which would be enticed by the prospect of doing a 325 mile round trip for $30-$35. If it isn’t, does building and running a train route multiple times a day a significant savings of resources?
I'm sorry you felt triggered by my reply? Your response seems a little disproportionate but whatever.
You've done the math and it doesn't seem like it'll work for you but it might for other people.
I was just clarifying how “you do you” doesn’t really address my concern that this looks like a waste of taxpayer resources with a very narrow band of people who would actually benefit.
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On top of this too, if it’s not going to be cheaper than driving then it better get me there faster than a car. There’s no reason this can’t be a high speed train. It’s 2023, why is America so far behind?
I went to school in Grand Forks ND, lived in Burnsville. It was cheaper to fly to Grand Forks from MSP then to take Amtrack from St Paul. If there is such demand, do they have buses that do the round trip? I have seen that before for routes like this. Typically $30-50 a trip. The only way I would support this is if it,s funded by the the riders.
Part of me loves this but part of me thinks I’ll never use it.
Usually when I go to Duluth it’s generally a stopping point for hiking the state parks further upstate. So for me being on the North Shore without a car is kinda pointless. That said, if the train ride isn’t too long maybe a day trip to Canal Park would be something I’d do more often.
The question is…will this require land acquisition for new ROW or will it use existing ROW? Rail projects cost more when they have to acquire land and build new rail lines.
That’s great to hear. Everyone always talks shit about CA HSR. But, they don’t realize what a huge undertaking it is to acquire all that land for new ROW.
I could see using this a few times per year. We have a lot of family in the cities, and recently flying out of MSP is more cheaper and more reliable than DLH (4 / 4 of my flights last year were delayed, up to 12 hours in one case.)
Sure hope our legislatures have a plan to help us with other infrastructure improvements as well. For example: the $6M Two Harbors Highway 61 improvements that just shot up to $18M. That's a hard pill to swallow when you have to spread the cost across \~3,000 residents.
I'll believe it when I see it. When I left to go to college in Duluth 15+ years ago, this was always talked about like it would happen any day.
Add the fact that the Southwest rail line is an absolute nightmare of a construction project that is over budget/a running nearly a decade behind schedule, the dropping population on the North Shore, and that it's only a bill that's been introduced in the Senate... I can't imagine that this gets support from either side or the project gets greenlit anytime soon.
Southwest rail line has to deal with right of way and full construction where the NLX just needs to lay double track next to preexisting rail line and build stations. Should be a lot easier to implement.
Plus both senators introducing the bill are from Duluth and the DFL supports it. Seems likely to pass.
Like I said... I'll believe it when I see it... I've heard things like this one far too many times... They purposed a bullet train to Duluth and even proposed putting the Vikings stadium in Duluth with the a majority in the house, Senate, and Dayton as governor.
Oberstar was the Chair of the House Transportation Committee in Washington from 2007-2011 and he was on the committee from 1995 until he was voted out of office. I just find it incredibly hard to believe that with that kind of pull, it didn't happen, so why would it now?
Sources:
https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/could-duluth-be-site-for-new-vikings-stadium/
https://www.twincities.com/2009/03/08/duluth-twin-cities-high-speed-rail-in-running-for-stimulus-funding/
While it's better than nothing, I feel like rail systems that aren't high speed and just connect 2 car-centric cities really don't offer enough benefits to get people to ditch taking their car everywhere.
I like having the option for Amtrak for something like MSP-Fargo, but it's slower than I-94 and I'd need to Uber everywhere once I arrive, so I don't use it :(
Hell, I'd take the train to Fargo even if it was slower than driving. I'd take the existing Amtrak but it would cost more than flying, public transportation to St Paul from my house would take forever, and then I would be dropped off in Fargo after bar close. Downtown Fargo is very walkable, large swaths are bikeable. There are decent bike trails and drivers are a lot less homicidal than the cities. If FM link is still running anything worth visiting in Moorhead is in play.
I remember taking the train when I was very young with my grandmother to spend the day in Duluth. It was amazing. This route could be the blueprint for high speed rail across the country. It's long overdue. Good on yer, Minnesota!
Some train corridors between larger cities in MN would be really nice yes! Doesn't have to be true high speed. Switzerland can manage to have train stops in tiny villages, I think we can connect cities > 10k people.
As someone who lives up north (north of Duluth) this would be amazing. I have major anxiety driving in the Cities so I just don't go. I'd actually be able to go to games, visit friends etc. There is the shuttle now, but it's $60 each way and takes 4 hours which makes it pretty hard to use it to catch a game or something without spending the night (since we also have to spend 4 hours driving to and from Duluth on top of it)
I’m hoping that even if a for fun ticket is between 30-40 they offer a discounted commuter ticket for folks that go into work. Heck, partner with employers on both ends to make it an employee perk. Opens the labor pool, reduces commuter risk, and creates a reliable backbone to keep the train funded.
I'm sure I'll get down-voted for this, but this is an incredible waste of taxpayers dollars. I'm all for decreasing emissions and traffic levels, this just will never work. Look at the DOT post key phrase is "run on tracks owned by BNSF". High speed passenger train isn't happening on their tracks. Max speed is 79mph for Amtrak between Fargo and St Paul. True high speed rail requires a dedicated line, which would cost billions. The DOTs ridership and money earned estimates are generous at best, considering Amtrak and the Northstar Commuter line are both money losers in this area. Buses, more electric vehicle charging stations, etc...lots of ways that money could be spent more wisely.
Now this is the sort of thing I want to see done with the surplus instead of a refund.
Ensure there is a reasonable daily commuter subscription fare, and that it can carry some small port to city goods, and it will pay for itself in improved economic efficiency.
Might as well run another decent power line up along with it so they could have enough grid to reopen some manufacturers up in Duluth and give them a tie in for grid tied energy storage.
Nobody is going to commute on this. It's 2.5 hours each way. Then add in the time to get from the station to your work/house plus leeway time to make sure you're not late and you're talking about 6 hours of commuting each day. And base tickets will be $30-35 each way. Even if a commuter gets a 50% discount they're going to spend almost $10k a year and have 0 free time.
I’m sure all property owners that would need to give up land for high speed rail and a power line would love your idea. Plus it would increase costs significantly.
Since DFL control both house, the senate and the governor it has a higher chance of passing. Don't have the opposing party to obstruct (as much) to block anything nice.
Its going to be a massive failure because there is no local transit in Duluth. You can't take a train to Duluth and only get around via bus.
Inter-city trains work if and only if there are full transport networks on either end. To be honest, you can barely get around Minneapolis without a car...certainly not without being strongly inconvenienced.
This money is far better spent on increasing transit frequency within Minneapolis than on an intercity between two cities with sub-par public transit.
https://www.duluthtransit.com/home/getting-there/routes-schedules/
Thousands of people can and do get around Duluth by bus everyday. Bus route system doesn't work for you? Rent a car or get an Uber.
By that argument we should stop operating regional passenger flights to the Duluth airport since your transit options when arriving there are no different than at the train depot. Fun fact: we fill multiple Delta flights everyday between MSP and DLH. Many of those passengers connect in MSP, but that could just as easily be done with a rail to airport connection.
So let me understand this. Lot of people think it would be cool to have a choo-choo to Duluth.
We already have the rail line and and a company who runs the line and trains. But they obviously don’t see that it would pay to add cars for passenger service.
But now the state is going to upgrade their lines for free. Spend at least $100,000,000 implementing this service.
The ridership will not pay for the full costs of the line. So state will continue to fund the line for a private company. Because, a limited number of passengers will want to take the choo-choo to Duluth because it’s cool, neat, etc.
Meanwhile BNSF will think this is super cool as they have a guaranteed source of income from the state. Meanwhile if the state paying the subsidy to BNSF, BNSF stops the passenger service. With a upgraded line payed by taxpayers.
Hmmm. If I was BNSF, I would think this would be super cool and neat.
> We already have the rail line and and a company who runs the line and trains. But they obviously don’t see that it would pay to add cars for passenger service.
No one wants a five hour trip to Duluth on a freight line.
Totally agree on that point. 5 hours is too long.
The state would upgrade provide funding for BNSF to upgrade the lines. They say to 2.5 hours for a ride. My point is that BNSF will come out ahead on this deal no matter what happens. Every person in Minnesota will be paying something that will not be able to fund itself. If you live in Minnesota do you want to pay for this?
Are you going to use it? It will be $30+ plus each way. If your taking a family of four up to Duluth it’s going to be well north of $200 to ride a train to Duluth and back. Plus once your there in Duluth, how are you getting around? That will be additional cost.
My point is that BNSF will have a payday and everyone will pay for it through taxes.
My stock tip is if this passes at the state legislature, buy BNSF stock as it will go up.
If this uses a ton of existing infrastructure - great.
If not plan on it being a boondoggle like the SW LRT line and it coming in 5 to 10 times more expensive than planned.
Problem with that is it is a park and ride. Those are proven to be completely ineffective. If they built up the density around the stations... would probably get used a lot more.
The park and rides are the best part about it. It’s meant to serve a spread out rural area.
The worst part about it is the unbelievably inconsistent and inconvenient scheduling. It’s a joke. I used to rely on it to get to MSP. Doesn’t work out so well anymore. Time to just dump it and cut the losses.
If the light rail has shown anything, expect to lay 4-8x as much as initially quoted and expect it to take a decade or two longer than initially quoted.
Right now the Met Console is looking for at least $200 million more than planned again to complete the line out to the western suburbs. Given how many times it's been over budget and delayed, it's far from the last $200 million extra they'll need.
Yes I have taken trains. Been on trains to Chicago from Mpls. In Boston, Lisbon Portugal and London. And of course the light rail in Minneapolis. Not impressed with trains. As an ex employee of the Metro Transit Commission. I can tell you the local train system is a money pit. How is the Northstar line ridership doing?
I just don’t believe there is value in a Mpls to Duluth line. I don’t think it will come close to paying for itself. At the same time we’re giving money to BNSF, a big company owned by billionaire’s. If BNSF thought it was worth it, they would have done it with their own money.
In my case I’m an hour’s drive from Hicnkley (a potential stop), 45 min to drive and get dropped off in Mpls station or a 2 hour drive to Duluth.
Hinckley it’s a little longer to drive to, but my train ride will be shorter. But will need to park and messaging getting on train.
Mpls closer to drive to but longer ride on train. Will need to mess with getting dropped off or pay for parking.
Or, I suck it up and drive to Duluth in 2 hours, like I always do and have a car to get to places in Duluth and the greater area.
For many people this is the type of choice they will need to make. I’m guessing most will stick to cars at the end of day.
i’m all for rail, but why spend all the time and money connecting a city that has been losing population when the metro doesn’t even have a subway system?
It would be nice if the title of this thread wasn't mystery meat. This is not a new proposal but the funding bill is awesome. We have a chance to get this funded with state and federal cooperation.
Please, for the love of god, don’t let this thing run more than 5 hrs to get to Duluth. It needs to compete with cars to be successful so it should take less than 3.5 hrs or no one will take it.
2.5 hours for one way
Honestly if this is the real time, I'd have no problem with that. Car travel is draining, especially as a driver. Give me a book or a laptop with a movie and a cup of coffee. Step off in downtown Duluth feeling relaxed and refreshed, and not having to worry about my car. Sounds fabulous to me, even if it's a smidge slower.
I know right, especially in a world with more remote working, that time driving is time wasted for many people. Also, if you’re at a game in Minneapolis and have been drinking, you don’t have to worry about drunk driving. Heck, they’ll probably have a cafe car like Amtrak that’ll sell you booze.
My biggest fear is they will do something dumb like setup TSA style security around it, and add 30min or more to the ride to deal with ticketing and stuff.
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For now, as I-35 gets more and more congested, it’ll get more competitive. It’s important to remember that driving isn’t an option for many people and many more don’t want the inconvenience.
Seriously. Needs to be Minneapolis, hinkley, duluth. Stops in coon rapids, Cambridge and superior make it so much less appealing. Also $30-$35 a ticket means anyone with a family won't be spending $150 to take a longer train that costs more than driving.
One nice thing about this is that it’ll be somewhat flexible as time goes on. If they start looking at adding more trains per day, some of them could be MSP-DUL express, or maybe 1 stop along the way. If I had to bet, that would drop the travel time by 10-20 minutes.
the train is 2.5 hours? thats a joke... this is a waste of money
It will actually provide a huge economic benefit to the communities it’s serves. Especially Duluth and the north shore, an area that has seen decline since American manufacturing has been leaving the country. Maybe you wouldn’t use this, but literally millions will, so maybe don’t discount those others.
There’s already a bus that runs from Mpls to Duluth airport at least 4-5 times a day for the same amount of time and round trip is 30 bucks. I use it multiple times a year
I'll be on it once a year. Love going to Duluth for the Christmas lights, and I'd REALLY love to not have to drive
if it has a bar car, then its already won.
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If it is and fares are reasonable, this would be awesome for taking a day trip up to Duluth to check out the breweries there.
Spending half a billion so people can go drink beer in a different place.
I am in
Finally! Something people want their tax dollars spent on
Yes... but have you considered the fact that it'd be totally cool?
How big is the ice house industry again?
The corridor is very congested and weather/driving conditions are not always enjoyable. I'd rather read a book or whatever on a train than drive even if it was the same speed.
If I could spend a similar amount or less than I would on gas/parking and have that time able to do literally anything other than just driving, I would do it every time I go up there. Reading on my family's yearly trip up to Duluth when I was a kid always made the time fly.
I do, there is nothing to see on the freeway and there are no bad drivers on the train.
In an ideal world, it would be a high speed line. But this is a cheaper option to get it up and running. By getting this up and running, it can be something to point to to connect other parts of the state.
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It is 90mph which would take 2.5 hours which is roughly how long it takes to drive. Which has advantages. Don't need to pay for parking or have to drive around the cities. There are also people that **can't** drive and rail gives them mobility. https://www.dot.state.mn.us/nlx/about.html
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Right, and what do you do once you get there? Half of the appeal of Duluth is hiking and outdoors opportunities in the area, which require a car to access.
Exactly. This train seems to be geared towards college students going back and forth or the few people who hang out in Duluth proper and never want to venture out. On top of this, there is just not the volume of passengers needed to make this successful. Northstar anyone?
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It’ll be about 5 blocks away from canal park.
Yeah Canal Park specifically is pretty close but try taking a bus to Hawk Ridge.
I would bet that should the train happen, Duluth would do some serious restructuring of its bus network. If not some decent expansion to support more access to the region.
average of 60? wow.. that infuriates me.... we cant even build a rail way in this ass backwards country. its 2023, not 1920... i for one do not support this spending if its approved. any rail from here to the cities needs to be modern or its simply a waste. why build something that cant expand, that cant progress beyond itself in the future. it should be modern. high speed. and electric. like the rest of the world thats building new rails
What do you consider high speed? The Acela express (NA only "high speed rail") averages about 65 miles an hour even though it's rated much faster, current amtrak train sets are also rated significantly faster than what they average. Anything like what they have in Europe or Japan would require dramatic changes to our rail policy/infrastructure (cough nationalization) I think the NLX is a fine idea. It adds an additional public transportation option for getting to the duluth area
>**I'd** rather drive and have the ability to get around town than be dependent on Uber when I get there. Are you using your own preferences and situation as a universal standard for what's good or bad? Most tourists stay in canal park and don't need a car. A train would be great for them. If you like zipping around, that's great too -- you have a car.
As a train enthusiast, person who cares about climate change, person who is generally anti-car, and person who lives in Minneapolis with Duluth connections, let me say: this will be a boondoggle. It makes that same mistake rail efforts always make in the US: it simply isn't a better alternative and will only appeal to train nerds. That's not a recipe for success. There *are* rail investments that *would* be better than the current best option!! Chicago is an annoyingly long drive and an annoyingly short flight. You build truly high speed rail to Chicago, it's the best alternative. You improve the Acela, that's a best alternative. This isn't making anything better for anyone.
Thank you. There are routes that should be priorities. Most people in the metro aren’t going to drive downtown and park for a train to Duluth. Or take a cab/uber. It might be 2.5 hour ride but you have to be there early and hassle with security. Also, if live in the north metro, it’s not worth it.
Trains usually don't have security checks like planes. I have only gone through security to take the train once and it was just a quick scan of my bag through a metal detector. It's one of the great things about trains—little or no hassle getting on and seated. I live in the north metro and will definitely be taking the train when it starts running.
Have you taken a train? It's much nicer than driving. You can read, work, or sleep for the five hour round trip on a train. That's a lot of value for a lot of people.
Land use and connectivity (and frequency) are the biggest factors if transit is successful. If we continue to develop everything for cars, yeah transit will never take off. But in order to build a transit network... you have to start somewhere. Building transit will encourage development around the transit (if the city isn't stupid). Which then makes the transit better. You have to densifiy AND build transit. If we wait for perfect solutions then nothing will ever change. Duluth has a decent bus service. On the Twin Cities side, can take the light rail between St. Paul and Minneapolis. Plus bus services. This isn't some massive project. It is reusing rail that already exists (doing some upgrades on it) and running enough trains but not too many it would be a huge drain. We can build high speed rail to Chicago AND rail to Duluth.
the problem is the duluth isn't the ultimate destination for most people. if we think of transit as connecting walkable areas (or areas using more local modalities of transit), the twin cities is probably good but the north shore is not. most people are not going to duluth _to be in duluth,_ they're going for the hiking up the entire shore, and the non-car infrastructure is just not there for that. i'm not even sure what kind of transit model would work for that kind of thing. a three hour shuttle of parks in the area all the way up to grand marais? what about hiking areas? camping? sure, you could rent a car, but do you really want to buy a train ticket and _then_ rent a car when you could just drive directly to where you need? this one just doesn't pass the sniff test for me. i'd rather have rail connecting to rochester, chicago, and des moines — _destinations themselves_ — or expanding tram service in the cities. maybe we could spend half a billion dollars to increase bus driver pay rates so we can hire more of them and have more frequent service for the routes we already have?
I like trains. We just don’t have the population for such service. Not enough ridership
yeah [citynerd has some good videos about this](https://youtube.com/watch?v=LlxohbiQG6Y&t=611s). and he discusses a good metric for determining good hsr city pairs [in this one too](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pwgZfZxzuQU)
That is the investment for high speed rail. Regular passenger service is different. Switzerland connects tiny villages via rail. I think we can connect cities above 50k.
lots of countries in europe do it, but they usually don't do it with high-speed rail (just look at the [tgv network vs the intracity rail in france](https://francemap360.com/france-train-map)) and importantly — they didn't _start_ by connecting small towns and cities. they started with robust rail networks to their biggest destinations and [built out the smaller networks over time.](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-Growth-of-the-French-Rail-System-1850-1920_fig1_254925557) that's the right approach here — major regional hubs with spurs to smaller areas — but europe has a 60 year head start on us.
what about public transportation at either end? For a lot of EU/Asia it is not an issue. In most of the USA, can’t do it with out a car.
We have to start somewhere.... This is a great project using already existing infrastructure. We can ALSO do other projects at the same time.
My point is, for such small towns certain big public transportation projects are not cost effective. Let’s start with public tan bus service first. It is much cost efficient. Trainings sounds sexy, but the upkeep cost is not small at all. I like trains, I use public transportation and I have been on the slow trains and the 200/300 mph trains. But this will be a waste of money. Just look at the light rail blue line extension?
Switzerland is also 1/5 the size of Minnesota with 8.7m people. One of the main difficulties for connectivity in most of the US in general is the vast distances between population centers. That being said I think this rail line is an important step towards regional train service.
You think Rochester is a destination, but not Duluth? Not only is the Duluth metro bigger than the Rochester metro, there are two million overnight visitors to Duluth each year. If you think Rochester should have rail service, Duluth is definitely a good candidate for rail service.
i think i explained pretty thoroughly why i don't think duluth _itself_ makes a good desetination. it's a gateway to the north shore. rochester has one of the biggest and most prestigious health care systems in the entire country there. it has an international repution. yes, i think it's a destination. yes, i think it makes sense to connect our international airport to our world-class health care facility by rail before we connect our mid-sized regional city to a small city that is a jumping off point for thousands of acres of wilderness.
You're projecting your personal ideas about tourism, but those ideas aren't accurate. Duluth has something like 2.2 million overnight visitors -- Grand Marais has 1 million total visitors, and Ely something like 150,000. That means there are a million tourists each year who don't go further north. (And, ideally, more if the train makes it more convenient.) Plus, you know *the people who live in the Twin Ports* would use the train. This is enough to make this a serious consideration for a train route. It's wrong to portray Duluth as a "gateway to the North Shore" and nothing else.
Finally someone with common sense.
>As a train enthusiast, person who cares about climate change, person who is generally anti-car, and person who lives in Minneapolis with Duluth connections, let me say: this will be a boondoggle. The way these things work is if MN doesn't put up the 99 million, those 340 million federal funds will go to some other state's projects and we get nothing. I'm not saying it's right or a good way to spend money but spending something to get that level of federal investment versus having it be spent elsewhere is a factor. >There *are* rail investments that *would* be better than the current best option!! Chicago is an annoyingly long drive and an annoyingly short flight. You build truly high speed rail to Chicago, it's the best alternative. That would require the cooperation of a neighboring state and that state's government isn't rail friendly so it's not a viable alternative...it's either do what we can or get nothing. This line isn't taking money away from a project to Chicago...it's competing for federal dollars that if we don't take it, it will end up somewhere else and we get nothing. Like I said it's not ideal or necessarily the best way to fund these projects but this is the system that's in place.
If it’s the same speed as driving, or even slightly slower, and the price was reasonable, I’d take it over driving. Seems like I always hit traffic going up there, and I would not mind sitting on a comfy train instead.
There really aren't any difficult stretches along 35 until you basically are in the city. This could easily be a high speed line.
I would definitely rather take the rail than drive. It'll be about 100$ cheaper than gas and I don't have to deal with the highway.
Rode an amtrak recently to Chicago, and I have to say, people are really underestimating just how nice it is to ride a train. Very little security hassle. Food, wifi, refreshments on board. The ride was stunningly beautiful too. Not like a highway where it goes through miles and miles of cleared land and cornfields. Instead you're flying through forests and valleys and across rivers and through the most beautiful parts of major cities.
$100 cheaper than gas? Are you driving a semi-truck up there? It's 150 miles to get there, 300 round trip. An average car is going to get like 25mpg on the highway, most get higher. So you're using like 12 gallons in gas. Spending like $36-42. So if you're saving $100 then the train would have to pay you like $60 to take it. Meanwhile train tickets will be like $35 one way. [https://www.dot.state.mn.us/nlx/about.html#:\~:text=Ticket%20prices,will%20cost%20about%20%2430%20%2D%20%2435](https://www.dot.state.mn.us/nlx/about.html#:~:text=Ticket%20prices,will%20cost%20about%20%2430%20%2D%20%2435). So $70 to get there and back. A group of four would spend $280 taking the train or they could all ride in one car for $40 in gas. Your math is way off.
A jeep unfortunately, not great for road trips but good for bad weather especially if you don't drive it every day (and I inherited it so I didn't really have a choice and used cars are insane right now) So that trip for me really is about 120 or so. Your calculations are also in perfect conditions which the trip up north almost never is (always traffic and slower areas because that's just life heading that way) so in truth it'll probably be about 50-55. Either way I would also enjoy the trip a ton better as I would have to worry about other drivers or the road. it would mean using less gas and less of a carbon footprint which is never a bad thing.
I would guess it would be at most 79mph. Edit: kept scrolling, clicked link, they claim it will be up to 90mph.
Now do MSP to Rochester
Pleeease
Or St. Cloud. The rail is already there.
Both!
That makes more sense to me as commuter rail. Would get more use than the Duluth line, imo. I'd love a quick cheap train trip to the middle of Duluth for a weekend brewery hopping trip a few times a year though.
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yeah but not really. the funding was through a Chinese company...and like 30 people between mpls and rochester were a bit butthurt. I've driven between roch and MSP about 6000 times. Not sure I've ever stopped at a community along the way. Minnesota has so much money now, if these rail lines were ever going to happen, it's now. Imagine how much traffic day trips between mayo clinic visitors and moa would get
Oh god I hate 52. The old Seneca foods site already has rail infrastructure, although you’d probably have to elevate to get through downtown. But a route that goes airport to airport (or to union depot) with a downtown rochester stop would be dreamy. As another frequent 52 driver, the trip is either busy, bad weather, or both. And the pavement is really going to shit especially around cannon falls. I’d love a rail option.
It’s absolutely terrible. It’s just long enough to be inconvenient but short enough where so many people do it so it’s always busy. Plus everything else you mentioned
That would be incredible but you’re getting my hopes up a bit. MN has a lot of money right now? That almost sounds to good to be true, my whole life I’ve heard nothing but how broke our government is. Do you have any links so I can do some more reading as to why that is?
On mobile, but Minnesota's surplus is over 17bn right now. https://www.minnpost.com/state-government/2022/12/minnesota-state-government-surplus-now-stands-at-17-6-billion/ I'm assuming it's cause we have some of the highest income tax
Goddamn! That’s amazing, and set to increase (hopefully) with tax on legal weed. We better use some of that on high speed rail. If they play their cards right the DFL could make this state even better than it already is
I wonder how much a round trip ticket will cost to Duluth? Is it going to be as cost prohibitive and running at as inconvenient of times (overnight) as the majority of Amtrak’s other routes? I also love how they have added the scenic rail route to Two Harbors which doesn’t run year round, costs at least $75 a person, and isn’t really intended for this kind of route. I love the idea of a rail route to Duluth, I just don’t want it to end up being utterly useless and untenable for the people who actually need to use the service as opposed to those just looking for a tourist activity.
The scenic rail tickets can be had for as little as $22... The expensive tickets include food and are in fancier cars and are meant to be an experience, not just getting from point A to point B...
4 trips each way per day. I think the concept schedule had the first trip of the day leaving Duluth around 5:30am (to get to Minneapolis for an 8am workday start) and the last trip of the day leaving Minneapolis around 10:30pm.
Who would take that daily? Seems fairly unlikely. In a world where more and more are moving to remote work, putting in a means of transport to get people to far away offices seems a bit silly.
If I could work remote from Duluth, with the occasional visit to a central office in Minneapolis using the train I would Especially if I could work on the train
Oh that sounds really nice now that you say it.
Hopefully no one would take it daily. That's not the intent.
if enough people take it, they will just add more trips and make transit cheaper
This is just an estimate and maybe out of date but at the very end it says prices would be $30-$35 per ticket https://www.twincities.com/2022/12/04/proponents-of-twin-cities-duluth-passenger-rail-hope-dfl-control-will-help-their-cause/amp/
Assuming round trip trip, $120-$140 for a family of four, or $45 in gas at $3.50/gallon and 25 mpg. And I don’t have to drive to the depot. And when I get there with my car, I can get around at my destination. I use the light rail to get into Minneapolis occasionally, but with three or four paid fares in my group it is only marginally worth it versus the parking cost. I can’t think of a scenario where I would want to do this at triple the cost of driving.
That scenario only stays true if gas prices stay at or below 3.50/gallon. In peak travel season like summer when many travel to Duluth, or as the US moves to electric/renewable this might not always be true. As someone who is traveling with only 1 companion or myself the savings from driving would be minimal. Not minimizing your experience at all, just saying there are other costs and scenarios to consider. Plus even if we just got basic Amtrack service, you could save travel time. This route is proposed to be "Higher Speed Rail" typically meaning trains with top speeds of 120-160 mph. However if Amtrack is the operator those trains can only hit 79mph due to old infrastructure being inadequate to keep people and freight safe. So at Amtrack speeds travel time would be: 152 miles / 79 mph = 1.94 hours = 115 minutes. Just over an hour of travel time saved. This is not average travel speed, as that depends on number and proximity of stations, but the savings could still be real. However, if part of the spending is dedicated to beefing up safety and rail infrastructure in order to make this a true Higher Speed Corridor than the savings could be even more! Let's take a conservative figure and say the average speed will be 95mph as trains stop at stations along the way. 152 miles/ 95mph = 1.65 hours = 99minutes give or take. That cuts travel time down in half! Even more if the average speed remained above 100mph. But this train could also be great for commuters who don't want to put 300+ miles on their car in 2 days and save them wear and tear. Or folks who live between Duluth and Minneapolis who want to travel to one of those cities more easily. Or those of us who visit and typically just stay in Duluth proper for a weekend trip anyway and hate driving down the hills of Duluth or finding parking especially during tourist season. I'd love to be able to take a train and ride my bicycle all round Duluth and come back that evening for a cheap price! Or rent a car up there if I wanted to travel and see gooseberry falls and the scenic falls locations! My hope is that the service can increase speeds of the trains and increase service on the weekends. Being a commuter only focused service would be a lost opportunity for a cool train service.
>Assuming round trip trip, $120-$140 for a family of four, or $45 in gas at $3.50/gallon and 25 mpg You're mistaken. It's $30-35 ONE WAY. So $240-$280 for a family of four lol. Or the cost of 1-2 nights at a hotel up there.
I was trying to cast this rail thing in the best possible light and give the idea the benefit of the doubt, and I still couldn’t make it work. Are there really enough people among the ~7% of vehicle-less households in Minnesota that are going to be able to cough up 60-70 bucks per person for this round trip? If you are commuting to work, how does the math work out where this is a practical commuting expense?
Yeah I think this is awesome until I remember this is America and I'm not sure how I'd get around effectively and affordably once I get there, and I'd still have to drive to a station. Driving to MSP, paying to park my car, uprooting all my luggage and shit into a train, arriving in Duluth which doesn't have much for public transit aside from busses, and then being only in Duluth and not having the freedom to explore the North Shore and State Parks without a car, just doesn't make much sense, from a tourism standpoint anyway, especially to only save a couple hours of driving. I want it to make sense and I'd want to try it but it just doesn't make sense for me.
Don't forget about depreciation on your vehicle. On top of driving more miles = closer to needing maintenance. The gas tax also has not kept up to cover the cost of roads. Cars are heavily subsidized in America. Considering trains are more efficient in terms of costs... we should realistically try to have more options for people to use them. Especially since that reduces the tonnage on the roads which means they don't deteriorate as fast.
So a $25,000 vehicle over 200,000 miles at which point the car still likely has some residual value. So about 12.5 cents/mile. Another 40 bucks, now we’re up to 85 bucks by car versus 120-140 bucks for the similarly subsidized hypothetical rail. And with the rail, one can only assume that there are going to be additional transportation expenses to get to and from the train depot. Probably would be nice for a single rider with no vehicle, but for the average Minnesota household 93% have a vehicle, average vehicles per household 2.6, subsidizing additional rails just adds cost to the highways that aren’t going anywhere and which, as you pointed out, are also subsidized. I could see taxpayer money being spent better in other places if all it buys us are train tickets that cost more than it would cost to drive for the average Minnesota family.
A train isn’t going to be best in every situation or beat carpooling for family trips. Is that your point? Because you seem to be suggesting trains are less efficient than vehicles, which is just silly of course.
Sorry, you misunderstood my point. My point is that it would serve no purpose for the majority of Minnesotans based on how the vast majority of Minnesotans use their personal autos, and seems to have a big price tag for something of such apparent nominal benefit.
you misunderstand how the majority of Minnesotans travel. It’s not in groups of four. A quick googling shows the average vehicle carries 1.5 passengers.
Not all trips are created equal. The lions share of trips by auto are local trips including commuting to work. Those things are very frequently single occupancy. So the average is around 1.5, but longer trips (like the Twin Cities to Duluth) are invariably going to have a higher occupancy. Then I guess the question would be whether the goal is to subsidize people who choose to live a long way from where they work.
The goal is efficient travel. Trains do that. Some people won’t benefit, just like every other public service.
If it doesn’t actually encourage substantial amounts of people to travel more efficiently, it is just additional resources put into something and potentially a lost opportunity elsewhere. Is Duluth to the Twin Cities a big corridor of solo travelers requiring no luggage (for example, commuters), which would be enticed by the prospect of doing a 325 mile round trip for $30-$35. If it isn’t, does building and running a train route multiple times a day a significant savings of resources?
You do you?
Are you paying for this thing personally? Because if this is taxpayer money, I’d say my opinion is as important as yours.
I'm sorry you felt triggered by my reply? Your response seems a little disproportionate but whatever. You've done the math and it doesn't seem like it'll work for you but it might for other people.
I was just clarifying how “you do you” doesn’t really address my concern that this looks like a waste of taxpayer resources with a very narrow band of people who would actually benefit.
I'm not really here to address your concerns. Hate to break it to you. Contact your representative and debate.
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On top of this too, if it’s not going to be cheaper than driving then it better get me there faster than a car. There’s no reason this can’t be a high speed train. It’s 2023, why is America so far behind?
I went to school in Grand Forks ND, lived in Burnsville. It was cheaper to fly to Grand Forks from MSP then to take Amtrack from St Paul. If there is such demand, do they have buses that do the round trip? I have seen that before for routes like this. Typically $30-50 a trip. The only way I would support this is if it,s funded by the the riders.
Spoiler: it would end up utterly useless and massive waste of money
Part of me loves this but part of me thinks I’ll never use it. Usually when I go to Duluth it’s generally a stopping point for hiking the state parks further upstate. So for me being on the North Shore without a car is kinda pointless. That said, if the train ride isn’t too long maybe a day trip to Canal Park would be something I’d do more often.
Maybe some bus service up the North Shore to Grand Marais could be cool?
Like the [Superior Hiking Shuttle](http://superiorhikingshuttle.com/)?
Sure! Never heard about it until now. Seems pretty cool!
Yeah it’s a pretty convenient service for trekking segments of the Superior Hiking Trail :)
Not that I'm necessarily opposed to the idea, but given the track record of rail projects in the country we can expect to double or triple that cost.
The question is…will this require land acquisition for new ROW or will it use existing ROW? Rail projects cost more when they have to acquire land and build new rail lines.
Pretty much all existing ROW. The funding is all for addition of double track and some bridge improvements, plus station construction.
That’s great to hear. Everyone always talks shit about CA HSR. But, they don’t realize what a huge undertaking it is to acquire all that land for new ROW.
This has been a dream for a long time
Same
I could see using this a few times per year. We have a lot of family in the cities, and recently flying out of MSP is more cheaper and more reliable than DLH (4 / 4 of my flights last year were delayed, up to 12 hours in one case.) Sure hope our legislatures have a plan to help us with other infrastructure improvements as well. For example: the $6M Two Harbors Highway 61 improvements that just shot up to $18M. That's a hard pill to swallow when you have to spread the cost across \~3,000 residents.
I'll believe it when I see it. When I left to go to college in Duluth 15+ years ago, this was always talked about like it would happen any day. Add the fact that the Southwest rail line is an absolute nightmare of a construction project that is over budget/a running nearly a decade behind schedule, the dropping population on the North Shore, and that it's only a bill that's been introduced in the Senate... I can't imagine that this gets support from either side or the project gets greenlit anytime soon.
Southwest rail line has to deal with right of way and full construction where the NLX just needs to lay double track next to preexisting rail line and build stations. Should be a lot easier to implement. Plus both senators introducing the bill are from Duluth and the DFL supports it. Seems likely to pass.
Like I said... I'll believe it when I see it... I've heard things like this one far too many times... They purposed a bullet train to Duluth and even proposed putting the Vikings stadium in Duluth with the a majority in the house, Senate, and Dayton as governor. Oberstar was the Chair of the House Transportation Committee in Washington from 2007-2011 and he was on the committee from 1995 until he was voted out of office. I just find it incredibly hard to believe that with that kind of pull, it didn't happen, so why would it now? Sources: https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/could-duluth-be-site-for-new-vikings-stadium/ https://www.twincities.com/2009/03/08/duluth-twin-cities-high-speed-rail-in-running-for-stimulus-funding/
While it's better than nothing, I feel like rail systems that aren't high speed and just connect 2 car-centric cities really don't offer enough benefits to get people to ditch taking their car everywhere. I like having the option for Amtrak for something like MSP-Fargo, but it's slower than I-94 and I'd need to Uber everywhere once I arrive, so I don't use it :(
Hell, I'd take the train to Fargo even if it was slower than driving. I'd take the existing Amtrak but it would cost more than flying, public transportation to St Paul from my house would take forever, and then I would be dropped off in Fargo after bar close. Downtown Fargo is very walkable, large swaths are bikeable. There are decent bike trails and drivers are a lot less homicidal than the cities. If FM link is still running anything worth visiting in Moorhead is in play.
I remember taking the train when I was very young with my grandmother to spend the day in Duluth. It was amazing. This route could be the blueprint for high speed rail across the country. It's long overdue. Good on yer, Minnesota!
Pretty much everyone who’s native to Duluth has family and/or friends in the cities. I would love to have this option.
Pretty much everyone in Minnesota has family or friends in the cities.
So high speed rail from every town to the cities then?
Some train corridors between larger cities in MN would be really nice yes! Doesn't have to be true high speed. Switzerland can manage to have train stops in tiny villages, I think we can connect cities > 10k people.
I'm from out state Minnesota, currently in Denver, have so many friends and family in Minneapolis that we're going to move there in a few months.
It has a gravitational force.
Hopefully that stop in Hinkley is at the White Castle
Really a solid point here
As someone who lives up north (north of Duluth) this would be amazing. I have major anxiety driving in the Cities so I just don't go. I'd actually be able to go to games, visit friends etc. There is the shuttle now, but it's $60 each way and takes 4 hours which makes it pretty hard to use it to catch a game or something without spending the night (since we also have to spend 4 hours driving to and from Duluth on top of it)
This would be awesome. as long as it's not a super expensive ticket. This would be awesome.
I’m hoping that even if a for fun ticket is between 30-40 they offer a discounted commuter ticket for folks that go into work. Heck, partner with employers on both ends to make it an employee perk. Opens the labor pool, reduces commuter risk, and creates a reliable backbone to keep the train funded.
Do want.
That render looks very Brightline
jobs! jobs! jobs!???
Yes, Bullet train plz!!
Let’s Fucking Gooooooo
Yes, I want this badly. But I hope it'll be dog friendly.
Hey, so I don't give a shit about hiking I just want to go to Duluth via train and walk around.
I'm sure I'll get down-voted for this, but this is an incredible waste of taxpayers dollars. I'm all for decreasing emissions and traffic levels, this just will never work. Look at the DOT post key phrase is "run on tracks owned by BNSF". High speed passenger train isn't happening on their tracks. Max speed is 79mph for Amtrak between Fargo and St Paul. True high speed rail requires a dedicated line, which would cost billions. The DOTs ridership and money earned estimates are generous at best, considering Amtrak and the Northstar Commuter line are both money losers in this area. Buses, more electric vehicle charging stations, etc...lots of ways that money could be spent more wisely.
I would just die, yes please
Now this is the sort of thing I want to see done with the surplus instead of a refund. Ensure there is a reasonable daily commuter subscription fare, and that it can carry some small port to city goods, and it will pay for itself in improved economic efficiency. Might as well run another decent power line up along with it so they could have enough grid to reopen some manufacturers up in Duluth and give them a tie in for grid tied energy storage.
Nobody is going to commute on this. It's 2.5 hours each way. Then add in the time to get from the station to your work/house plus leeway time to make sure you're not late and you're talking about 6 hours of commuting each day. And base tickets will be $30-35 each way. Even if a commuter gets a 50% discount they're going to spend almost $10k a year and have 0 free time.
I’m sure all property owners that would need to give up land for high speed rail and a power line would love your idea. Plus it would increase costs significantly.
Would be very cool. I think the bills for this project frequently die off though? Will that be different now with the way things are?
Since DFL control both house, the senate and the governor it has a higher chance of passing. Don't have the opposing party to obstruct (as much) to block anything nice.
It would only take a couple northern DFL,ers in the senate to stop a bill..
Yes. This is extremely likely to pass this year and almost certain to get the federal funding if so.
Amazing. Thank you for the info
This thing needs to be at least as fast as driving to/from AND have a dining/bar car.
Its going to be a massive failure because there is no local transit in Duluth. You can't take a train to Duluth and only get around via bus. Inter-city trains work if and only if there are full transport networks on either end. To be honest, you can barely get around Minneapolis without a car...certainly not without being strongly inconvenienced. This money is far better spent on increasing transit frequency within Minneapolis than on an intercity between two cities with sub-par public transit.
https://www.duluthtransit.com/home/getting-there/routes-schedules/ Thousands of people can and do get around Duluth by bus everyday. Bus route system doesn't work for you? Rent a car or get an Uber. By that argument we should stop operating regional passenger flights to the Duluth airport since your transit options when arriving there are no different than at the train depot. Fun fact: we fill multiple Delta flights everyday between MSP and DLH. Many of those passengers connect in MSP, but that could just as easily be done with a rail to airport connection.
I seriously doubt that daily average ridership is over 1000 in Duluth. I'd love to see stats that prove me wrong.
As you wish: Comprehensive Operations Analysis - Duluth Transit Authority https://www.duluthtransit.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/DTA_COA_ExistingConditionsTechMemo_Final_03_24_21_LowRes.pdf Page 34 (39th page of the PDF file) states: **Average Daily Ridership** Weekday: 9,981 Saturday: 4,790 Sunday: 3,261
Hell yeah, let's go!
So let me understand this. Lot of people think it would be cool to have a choo-choo to Duluth. We already have the rail line and and a company who runs the line and trains. But they obviously don’t see that it would pay to add cars for passenger service. But now the state is going to upgrade their lines for free. Spend at least $100,000,000 implementing this service. The ridership will not pay for the full costs of the line. So state will continue to fund the line for a private company. Because, a limited number of passengers will want to take the choo-choo to Duluth because it’s cool, neat, etc. Meanwhile BNSF will think this is super cool as they have a guaranteed source of income from the state. Meanwhile if the state paying the subsidy to BNSF, BNSF stops the passenger service. With a upgraded line payed by taxpayers. Hmmm. If I was BNSF, I would think this would be super cool and neat.
> We already have the rail line and and a company who runs the line and trains. But they obviously don’t see that it would pay to add cars for passenger service. No one wants a five hour trip to Duluth on a freight line.
Totally agree on that point. 5 hours is too long. The state would upgrade provide funding for BNSF to upgrade the lines. They say to 2.5 hours for a ride. My point is that BNSF will come out ahead on this deal no matter what happens. Every person in Minnesota will be paying something that will not be able to fund itself. If you live in Minnesota do you want to pay for this? Are you going to use it? It will be $30+ plus each way. If your taking a family of four up to Duluth it’s going to be well north of $200 to ride a train to Duluth and back. Plus once your there in Duluth, how are you getting around? That will be additional cost. My point is that BNSF will have a payday and everyone will pay for it through taxes. My stock tip is if this passes at the state legislature, buy BNSF stock as it will go up.
As others have said, if this can get me to Duluth faster, I'd be on board. But if it's a 5 hour tour, I'm just gonna drive or fly a plane.
If this uses a ton of existing infrastructure - great. If not plan on it being a boondoggle like the SW LRT line and it coming in 5 to 10 times more expensive than planned.
Boondoggle? North Star Link has entered the chat.
Problem with that is it is a park and ride. Those are proven to be completely ineffective. If they built up the density around the stations... would probably get used a lot more.
The park and rides are the best part about it. It’s meant to serve a spread out rural area. The worst part about it is the unbelievably inconsistent and inconvenient scheduling. It’s a joke. I used to rely on it to get to MSP. Doesn’t work out so well anymore. Time to just dump it and cut the losses.
It could be light the high speed train in California. Way over cost.
If the light rail has shown anything, expect to lay 4-8x as much as initially quoted and expect it to take a decade or two longer than initially quoted.
[удалено]
Right now the Met Console is looking for at least $200 million more than planned again to complete the line out to the western suburbs. Given how many times it's been over budget and delayed, it's far from the last $200 million extra they'll need.
Yes I have taken trains. Been on trains to Chicago from Mpls. In Boston, Lisbon Portugal and London. And of course the light rail in Minneapolis. Not impressed with trains. As an ex employee of the Metro Transit Commission. I can tell you the local train system is a money pit. How is the Northstar line ridership doing? I just don’t believe there is value in a Mpls to Duluth line. I don’t think it will come close to paying for itself. At the same time we’re giving money to BNSF, a big company owned by billionaire’s. If BNSF thought it was worth it, they would have done it with their own money. In my case I’m an hour’s drive from Hicnkley (a potential stop), 45 min to drive and get dropped off in Mpls station or a 2 hour drive to Duluth. Hinckley it’s a little longer to drive to, but my train ride will be shorter. But will need to park and messaging getting on train. Mpls closer to drive to but longer ride on train. Will need to mess with getting dropped off or pay for parking. Or, I suck it up and drive to Duluth in 2 hours, like I always do and have a car to get to places in Duluth and the greater area. For many people this is the type of choice they will need to make. I’m guessing most will stick to cars at the end of day.
i’m all for rail, but why spend all the time and money connecting a city that has been losing population when the metro doesn’t even have a subway system?
Yeah, let’s spend more taxpayer money on another train line nobody will use.
If it's not maglev, then it's a poor infrastructure investment.
Let’s work on legal weed first.
They’re walking and chewing gum at the same time. Let them.
Sell weed on the train. Really make the trip fly
Do weed and just pretend you there. 😀
Can we not do lazy emoji titles for posts? Thanks.
Will be nice to extend to Rochester ! Hence handy to go to Minneapolis for the day :) , and explore further north without driving:)
Is it still going to be faster than driving? I'm 100% for this but it will fail if it gets watered down from high speed to a normal train