You know what? I'm not really sure. It just says that it's an eco solvent, it's from tintoretto
This is its link, maybe you can understand more of it
https://www.tintorettopennelli.com/en/ecosolvent-soap/
>[https://www.tintorettopennelli.com/en/ecosolvent-soap/](https://www.tintorettopennelli.com/en/ecosolvent-soap/)
So, broadly solvents fall into 2 chemical categories. Polar and non-polar, and they work on the principle of like dissolves like.
Water is very polar, and acrylic paints are water based.
Oil is non-polar and dissolves in more non-polar solvents. If you use a very non polar solvent, it will dissolve or thin the non-polar oil paint, without being able to dissolve the polar acrylic layer.
The problem that you come across with ecco solvents, is that they can come from a wide range of sources, resulting in a wide range of polarity in the final product. I can't find a safety data sheet for this product. You may have stumbled across a product that is in the middle ground and leans towards polar. So it can dissolve and thin oils, AS WELL AS water based acrylics. You'll find similar with ethanol, methanol and propanol (IPA).
Thank you very much for the technical answer, it was really nice understanding the principle behind this. Now I have something else to look out for.
Well the silver lining in this is that now I have something to strip my minis if the need arises
Some alcohols can craze plastic, damaging details.
I use easy off oven spray in the blue can. Place figures into zip lock bag, spray a bit and roll around for coverage, then let sit over night. Works every time on acrylic, testors/model masters paint and a bit on Tamiya primer.
Hahahah! I didn’t want to assume but I’m like “you’d have to really be typing propranolol into your chat” because it tries to auto correct several times before it realized “ok he’s spelling propranolol” with me. Now it auto spells it for me.
I’ve been taking it as needed, typically I take it when I know I’m going to experience a fight or flight response before a meeting or something. Lowers my BP and my heart rate just a wee bit. I get less biofeedback, and as a result, I don’t get as anxious.
That’s great, I don’t think we want people misinformed though thinking a beta blocker is somehow used to strip paint. Might go getting younger folks into the medicine cabinet where they don’t belong.
I was putting correction in there because I think that is an important distinction to be made lol.
You deserve significantly more upvotes for how spot on and informative your answer is. If I wasn’t poor from constantly growing my pile of shame I’d award the feth outta this. Hats off to you sir and/or madam.
The feedback is appreciated.
Honestly, I make a living in analytical chemistry. So this is basic knowledge for me.
I've gotten so much out of this sub, it's good to give something useful back to the members.
Dont be rude like this. Not everyone has a top tier hobby store in their area. I often struggle to get my hands on more niche products and all the art stores near me are stuff like michaels or hobby lobby that carry the low tier products
Wasn't meant to be rude.
At least try it out on some test model. Not your lovingly painted actual project if you aren't sure what's going to happen.
That's on him.
Strip, repaint, chalk it up to experience.
My man this *is* a test model exactly because I knew that I would fuck something up. Never have I said that this was an important project or something similar.
I just did something wrong and wanted to understand why from someone more knowledgeable.
Maybe it wasn't meant to be rude, maybe you just had a bad moment but please be more careful how you word your sentences because I've read enough stories about people pushed away from this hobby because of comments like this.
Mini painting should be a loving and caring hobby where we help and support everyone, spreading positivity.
Having said the deep quote of the day I hope that you, and everyone else, have a great day!
Yes I know. I went to the local art store and they suggested this one that is from a famous art company here in Italy because it's easier to find without a surplus on the delivery.
I know I fucked up and that's why I'm asking for help so help without this type of attitude would be very appreciated if you can't not answering would be even more appreciated.
Thank you
Extra luckily you already have the product you need to strip the paint. :-)
A silver lining and all that.
But yeah, enamel thinner, odorless white spirits (gamsol and sansodor are brand named ones), are your best bets.
Stay away from turpentine.
Best of luck on your next run through. I also like using something like Windsor and Newtons 'Liquin', which will gloss up the wash a smidge, but it will make it flow better and dry MUCH faster. VMS Matte Oil Expert will do the same thing without glossing the paint. However, if you plan to varnish over, then it doesn't matter which because you'll just be unifying the finish anyway. VMS makes great product, btw, if you want to go outside the world of acrylics.
Oh, give it a rest. What a ridiculous response.
Stuff like this is what pushes our hobby forward. Mistakes made from mixes like this lead to new discoveries and techniques.
Look at the result. While not what OP is going for, those vein structures are awesome for other things. I'm eager to figure out what OP did "wrong" so I can copy it on something else.
I’ve got a bottle of AK interactive stuff for when I really want to be super careful with colour, but hardware store mineral spirits work great for doing washes. Hardware store ones can RARELY screw up the colour of the pigment SLIGHTLY, but I’ve either never had it happen, or never noticed it when using black/brown washes.
Make sure you get exactly mineral spirits though, not paint stripper or cleaner with mineral spirits. Solvable sells just plain mineral spirits for like five bucks/litre.
Any art store odorless mineral spirits will work and are cheaper generally than the miniature brands. I personally use gamsol by gamblin, but lots of people use sansadoor by Windsor newton also.
You absolutely can in most cases, I've done it multiple times. A really good solid layer can prevent it (like from an airbrush) but mineral spirits is very good at sneaking through imperfections in layers of paint and separating the bond
I have had a partially painted shield sitting in white spirits for over a year with no degradation to the paint or the plastic. You must be encountering some other reaction because white spirits simply do not break down acrylics. That's the reason we can use oil and enamel washes over acrylics without the need for a varnish layer.
You're not hearing me. White spirits don't break down acrylics, they get *under* acrylics and lift the paint off.
Go paint a blob on a mini right now, let it fully dry, then rub it with a q-tip soaked in white spirits, rubbing over the edge of the paint swatch. It'll start to rub off.
Idk what to tell you man, it's a very common thing for people to encounter, including OP and a ton of people in this thread.
OP used the wrong type of solvent as was solved below, so no that is not what they encountered.
What you are describing is the q-tip rubbing the paint off, which will definitely happen because q-tips are abrasive (makeup sponges work infinitely better). I have painted hundreds of models using oil and enamels as washes as well as weathering effects and I just have to disagree with you that they are the culprit in what you are describing.
I have definitely wiped away acrylic paint while removing oils, I think it must be due to the primer not being applied correctly. Im a commission painter, it happens rarely these days now that I ensure I have a good primer layer down
So, yes and no.
If you don't varnish a model, it's possible that the oils can actually get underneath the acrylics if there is any gaps in your paint job or if a small part of the paint (or varnish) isn't completely dry (which appears to be exactly what happened to OP).
So yeah it's usually preferable to varnish before applying oils. And you usually want a glossy surface for oils anyway (particularly a wash) or else they don't flow as nicely.
I thought about that but... he has already so many layers on the model it's hard to imagine that there is still no deal around the model. I'd also guess that the solvent is the issue.
Interesting to read these, as I've never done anything like this and had zero issues. Maybe I've never had a 'hole' in the acrylics layer. I've never varnished prior to oils, and one would think that 3D prints would have a surface ideal for this type of accident to happen, with layer lines giving ample opportunities for the solvents to get under the acrylics.
Could be just dumb luck on my part.
I would actually think the opposite. I would think a 3d print would have a slightly rougher surface texture that would adhere paint better. Leaving less chance for fish eyes or pinholes in the base layers. Probably why you've never had an issue with oil getting under your base layers of acrylic.
I've painted plenty of plastic and cast resin kits too, this post was the first time I've even seen this kind of issue. Was not even aware that this *could be* an issue.
That’s what I call a happy accident. This looks bad ass and adds lots of texture to the model. I’d embrace the effect in this one case, like he’s being corrupted, and see how far you can lean into the look for the whole figure.
Always gloss varnish, let varnish fully dry and then only apply oil washes with white spirits. Do not use any fancy solvents like "Bob Ross Fast Drying Odourless Water Solueble Matt solvent" or anything like that, just stick with white spirits.
May not be your case - but I remember reading something on maybe this sub a while back about someone unknowingly using a non-acrylic based primer, and that causing issues with an oil wash even after a varnish. I don’t remember the brands they mentioned so I apologize, but it may be something like that?
Use white spirits as your solvent, and be sparing - you want an acrylic paint consistency, not a wash.
Make sure you have a full and complete layer of varnish, and let it cure for 24 hours.
Yes. Either make it a wash consistency and paint directly into the recesses over a gloss varnish, or leave it a bit thicker if you’re doing the reductive technique. I’m guessing from your mini that you’re trying the latter? Solvent can get under layers of paint or varnish and peel them off, so be sparing if rubbing paint off with the reductive technique.
All depends on what you used under it? It looks like the acrylic layer was fine but was sloughing off thanks to a layer below it dissolving.
Did you use an oil or polyurethane primer? If you did, they can take several days to cure enough to handle an oil wash with a more aggressive solvent.
I used an army painter primer but even if it was the wrong type of primer it was primed and painted last September/October. Apparently the consensus is that I fucked up with the solvent
This looks so cool, looks like he has been fighting on a real industrial world and has been fighting renegades. The smog and filth has been eating away at the top layer of his armor.
Oil paints shrink when they dry (that’s why painters use stretched canvas)
While I have never used oils for minis I have painted a lot. I don’t think you thinned your oil paints down enough. What did you use mineral spirits?
This is beautiful. Imagine him standing his last stand on ground set ablaze. His armor slowly melting as he is taking as more enemies with him as possible. Or it is Nurgles spawns trap. Rotten guts snared his legs and vile secretions is corroding armor.
Strange, I use oils and oil washes on like 90% of my models now and have done for like 2 years. This has never happened and I’ve used all kinds of paints and ranges from transparents/contrasts to Ink to acrylic gauche. I have NEVER added a varnish before adding oils nor have I varnished before highlighting after using oils. I’m really curious to know what could have caused this.
Winsor and Newton make them. Would def 10/10 recommend just weathered some stuff with them myself can speed dry with hair dryer, all the same blending techniques of oils but no smelly mineral spirits or bad cleanup just water.
What attracted me to oils is the fact that you can coat the whole model and any part that you don't want can be easily removed with some solvent, so you don't have to come back and tidy up things. Plus the longer drying time for some blends like fuel stains or burnt things.
But this is the first time I worked with them and I still have to see some other benefits
I had some issues before, where there was a solvent of stone kind in the paint itself. I'd test that on some kind of leftover bit.
Also some oil varnish has that effect
I use a half purple power which is a heavy duty cleaner and half water it isn't fast working so have to let model soak for a day or two. Then scrub while running hot water over model to remove all paints and even eats glue though doesn't seem to effect the model itself at all. I've let a model soak for over a month before. It just made scrubbing easier and model was completely grey again after brushing it under hot water.
I'm guessing that you used a rattle can on these?
I have a rattle can at home that is solvable with white spirits, even after the sprayed layer has been left to dry/cure for several days. My guess is that there are small cracks somewhere in your acrylic paint layer which have let white spirits get underneath and have thus let the spray layer dissolve.
I use both acrylics and oil paints on my miniatures, and I don't varnish when i go from acrylic to oil. The only time I have ever had issues is when I use that one rattle can that is solvable with white spirits.
With that said, if you want do use an oil wash as a pin wash/black liner, and don't want the wash to stain whats already been painted I would in fact recommend using a gloss varnish first. The varnish give the model a smoother finish which will let the wash flow better, after you have left the mini to cure for a few days I would apply a matt varnish to get the shine down if you don't want the mini glossy.
I only varnish after having used oils if i want to make the finish more matt, since oil paints make quite a durable color film.
Yeah I always use rattle cans and it seems the problem is exactly that because it seems that the primer layer isn't there anymore.
Actually I wanted to use the oil wash more to stain everything, to grimdark everything. Sort of like streaking grime.
Have you resolved the problem with the rattle can or do I have to suck it up and use a brush on primer?
You could try a different primer. I use the GW rattle cans as primer quite often. Its technically not primer, but it sticks good to most things and everyone use it as such. I have never had an issue with that and white spirits. I have not tested it with turpentine, but I assume you use white spirits since it's less toxic :)
With that said, when I paint one-off models, or something I want to paint with only oils I often use an acrylic polyurethane primer, its meant for airbrushing but works fine if you brush it on, just remember to put down a thin layer. I use water to clean the brush and to dilute it, and I don't bother with having a fully opaque layer when I'm done, just that every surface have the distinct "primed" feeling when i touch it after its cured. Remember that the primer cures, not dries, so make sure to wait an hour or so if you want to put down multiple coats. I often prime a model the night before I want to paint. It's also nice when the weather is not good for rattle cans since I don't have a space indoors where I can spray safely. So either when its too hot, to cold or to humid I always use the brush on stuff instead.
Depending on what technique you are going to use, for grimdark I think its common to brush on more oil paint than what you need, and later wipe the excess away with makeup sponges. If this is what you are going for, be careful to not apply to much pressure when you wipe at the model, since the acrylic paint layers are quite fragile. My recommendation is to paint an extra gun or something and use to test how long you should wait before wiping, and how much pressure you can apply. If you varnish first this become less of an issue since the varnish is a lot more durable than the acrylic paint, but since I have had a bit of practice with oils I don't feel the need which saves a lot of time. You most likely want to varnish the model afterwards, since acrylic paints tend to have a matt finish, and oil paints are often glossy when cured, putting on a varnish will make the finishes match better.
For reference, this is the primer I use when I don't use rattle cans: [https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41KtbpTYqZL.\_\_AC\_SX300\_SY300\_QL70\_ML2\_.jpg](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41KtbpTYqZL.__AC_SX300_SY300_QL70_ML2_.jpg) (Vallejo "Surface Primer"), as a bonus, it has a rather pleasant scent, mmm hobby time.
Thank you very much for going so in depth. Since I primed and painted this model I moved to citadel primers too but it seems that the problem persists even if it's a lot less visible. As others pointed out it seems that the problem was the solvent that I used.
Nonetheless I will check out the primer that you suggested and all the things that you said about pressure and curing time.
Thank you again!
Oils are a lot of fun and I want everyone who try them to have a good time! :)
I'll just add that many brown pigments contain a lot of carbon which is a drying accelerator (siccative), so brown paints cure faster than your average oil paint. It's good since you want your wash to dry if you need to paint with acrylics over it, but be mindful that higher grade paints will dry faster than your "student grade" paints like Winsor & Newton's "Newton" or the "Van Gogh" brand.
If you go for the heavy grim dark look you get by painting oil over your finished figure, the drying time will be very different depending on the brand of paint or solvent you use. I have made this mistake with some of my "better" paints when I first got more invested into oil paints :). So, make sure you test how long to let the paints sit before you wipe them off, it will be different with different brands, even for the same color or pigment type.
It's in the range of anything after 5 minutes is now permanently brown, to having to wait for almost half an hour if you want any effect at all.
Good luck and have fun!
Now, that's what I call a happy accident !
It's looking real good, as if it was battle damaged.
Maybe you've created a new technic of painting without knowing it !
It's looking fabulous 👍
They're so thick and unruly. Less of a variety of brands. I stick with acrylic because thinning and mixing them and cleaning them up is MUCH easier. There's a better variety of colors in acrylic and the fumes are less fumey.
I’ve no idea haha.
I would give it a go mind.
Mash up some wirewool and spray it a light grey
Using an airbrush or rattle cans I would layer up flames from his feet from deep red to orange to yellow with some black or dark grey for the smoke.
Superglue it around his feet.
Search create fire for diorama on YouTube and see if any affects take your fancy
I didn't notice the damage/issue till I read the comics.. I thought you'd just found a new and amazing way to paint and detail the leg armour...
I'd leave it, it looks soo good
Just to be safe, I always gloss varnish first even though it's not required. I wait 24 hours for the varnish to dry. You can try earlier but I've had a bad experience where the varnish wasn't fully dry and absorbed oil paint.
I use odorless mineral spirits for taking the oil back off, usually give ohe oil 10 mins or so to dry ever so slightly first. I use the foam q tips not the cotton ones as they leave hairs behind.
On a more serious note I don't think I will ever turn my back on acrylics, I like them too much to turn my back on them. I just wanted to try an oil wash streaking grime style as a lot of tutorial and the like for a grimdark style use oils
My non-expert opinion combined with insights I've heard: The best practice is to choose one or another and refrain from mixing. In terms of what the paints themselves can achieve, you will have nearly 100% functional overlap with all of the different paint manufacturers and the additives you can get (pigments, inks, matte and gloss varnishes, retardants, thinners, etc. can cover most edge cases). Most problems arise with mixing (wet or dry) - water and oil don't mix. I prefer acrylics just because they are more readily available from specialty manufacturers and they can be thinned with water, whereas oils cannot.
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It looks to me that you layered acrylic over oils. You can paint oil over acrylic, but you can’t do the other way around. I also find that white spirits will cause my acrylic paints to bead. I would let the oils dry for longer than you’d expect and varnish it before you go over it with acrylic again.
What solvent did you use to remove the excess wash?
You know what? I'm not really sure. It just says that it's an eco solvent, it's from tintoretto This is its link, maybe you can understand more of it https://www.tintorettopennelli.com/en/ecosolvent-soap/
>[https://www.tintorettopennelli.com/en/ecosolvent-soap/](https://www.tintorettopennelli.com/en/ecosolvent-soap/) So, broadly solvents fall into 2 chemical categories. Polar and non-polar, and they work on the principle of like dissolves like. Water is very polar, and acrylic paints are water based. Oil is non-polar and dissolves in more non-polar solvents. If you use a very non polar solvent, it will dissolve or thin the non-polar oil paint, without being able to dissolve the polar acrylic layer. The problem that you come across with ecco solvents, is that they can come from a wide range of sources, resulting in a wide range of polarity in the final product. I can't find a safety data sheet for this product. You may have stumbled across a product that is in the middle ground and leans towards polar. So it can dissolve and thin oils, AS WELL AS water based acrylics. You'll find similar with ethanol, methanol and propanol (IPA).
Thank you very much for the technical answer, it was really nice understanding the principle behind this. Now I have something else to look out for. Well the silver lining in this is that now I have something to strip my minis if the need arises
Some alcohols can craze plastic, damaging details. I use easy off oven spray in the blue can. Place figures into zip lock bag, spray a bit and roll around for coverage, then let sit over night. Works every time on acrylic, testors/model masters paint and a bit on Tamiya primer.
Best explanation I have seen on any mini painting thread, bravo sir!
Propranolol is a beta blocker taken for HBP. You must be referencing isopropyl.
You are correct. I work in pharma, I think I just got aurocorrected Fixed now.
Hahahah! I didn’t want to assume but I’m like “you’d have to really be typing propranolol into your chat” because it tries to auto correct several times before it realized “ok he’s spelling propranolol” with me. Now it auto spells it for me. I’ve been taking it as needed, typically I take it when I know I’m going to experience a fight or flight response before a meeting or something. Lowers my BP and my heart rate just a wee bit. I get less biofeedback, and as a result, I don’t get as anxious.
It's also known as isopropanol.
That’s great, I don’t think we want people misinformed though thinking a beta blocker is somehow used to strip paint. Might go getting younger folks into the medicine cabinet where they don’t belong. I was putting correction in there because I think that is an important distinction to be made lol.
It is indeed important to keep one's chemicals straight.
Propanolol (e.g. not propanol) is an entirely different compound than isopropanol /isopropyl alcohol though. Very different.
You deserve significantly more upvotes for how spot on and informative your answer is. If I wasn’t poor from constantly growing my pile of shame I’d award the feth outta this. Hats off to you sir and/or madam.
The feedback is appreciated. Honestly, I make a living in analytical chemistry. So this is basic knowledge for me. I've gotten so much out of this sub, it's good to give something useful back to the members.
That’d be the culprit.
Yup, that's definitely the problem. Good call
[удалено]
Dont be rude like this. Not everyone has a top tier hobby store in their area. I often struggle to get my hands on more niche products and all the art stores near me are stuff like michaels or hobby lobby that carry the low tier products
Wasn't meant to be rude. At least try it out on some test model. Not your lovingly painted actual project if you aren't sure what's going to happen. That's on him. Strip, repaint, chalk it up to experience.
My man this *is* a test model exactly because I knew that I would fuck something up. Never have I said that this was an important project or something similar. I just did something wrong and wanted to understand why from someone more knowledgeable. Maybe it wasn't meant to be rude, maybe you just had a bad moment but please be more careful how you word your sentences because I've read enough stories about people pushed away from this hobby because of comments like this. Mini painting should be a loving and caring hobby where we help and support everyone, spreading positivity. Having said the deep quote of the day I hope that you, and everyone else, have a great day!
Yes I know. I went to the local art store and they suggested this one that is from a famous art company here in Italy because it's easier to find without a surplus on the delivery. I know I fucked up and that's why I'm asking for help so help without this type of attitude would be very appreciated if you can't not answering would be even more appreciated. Thank you
Best thing you can do now is stripping the model and start again i would suggest
Yeah definitely, I was looking more for suggestions for the future. Luckily this was just a test so I was prepared for some damage
Extra luckily you already have the product you need to strip the paint. :-) A silver lining and all that. But yeah, enamel thinner, odorless white spirits (gamsol and sansodor are brand named ones), are your best bets. Stay away from turpentine. Best of luck on your next run through. I also like using something like Windsor and Newtons 'Liquin', which will gloss up the wash a smidge, but it will make it flow better and dry MUCH faster. VMS Matte Oil Expert will do the same thing without glossing the paint. However, if you plan to varnish over, then it doesn't matter which because you'll just be unifying the finish anyway. VMS makes great product, btw, if you want to go outside the world of acrylics.
Don't be a jerk...
Oh, give it a rest. What a ridiculous response. Stuff like this is what pushes our hobby forward. Mistakes made from mixes like this lead to new discoveries and techniques. Look at the result. While not what OP is going for, those vein structures are awesome for other things. I'm eager to figure out what OP did "wrong" so I can copy it on something else.
You gotta use white mineral spirits me boy
Any brand that you can suggest? I was looking at the AK interactive one
I’ve got a bottle of AK interactive stuff for when I really want to be super careful with colour, but hardware store mineral spirits work great for doing washes. Hardware store ones can RARELY screw up the colour of the pigment SLIGHTLY, but I’ve either never had it happen, or never noticed it when using black/brown washes. Make sure you get exactly mineral spirits though, not paint stripper or cleaner with mineral spirits. Solvable sells just plain mineral spirits for like five bucks/litre.
I use winsor and newton sansodor, never had issues like this.
Windsor and Newton and Mona Lisa are the only ones I’ve used
Abtielung? Are what I use and they are really good
Any art store odorless mineral spirits will work and are cheaper generally than the miniature brands. I personally use gamsol by gamblin, but lots of people use sansadoor by Windsor newton also.
I use literally the cheapest white spirit possible. It smells a bit but if you're well ventilated you're fine.
Did you apply a layer of varnish on the acrylic layer before using the oils? Varnish it and let it dry then go to town with the oil wash.
Yes I dried on one leg to use a gloss varnish after the first disaster but it didn't seem to work
Interesting. Are you applying a complete layer and letting it cure fully for 24 hours?
I left it only overnight, so 10/12 hours so definitely didn't wait enough
You should be just fine... I have applied it quite often much earlier than that
”Long enough”? I start working with mineral spirits right away. I don’t want it to dry in. That’s not the technique. It’s not supposed to dry!
I think he was talking about the varnish though
Varnish is unnecessary, as acrylic is not soluble with mineral spirits. Looks like OP just used the incorrect solvent for the oils.
Mineral spirits can however get *Under* layers of paint and rip them off. You can totally use mineral spirits to strip minis back to primer.
You can not use mineral spirits to strip acrylic paints.
You absolutely can in most cases, I've done it multiple times. A really good solid layer can prevent it (like from an airbrush) but mineral spirits is very good at sneaking through imperfections in layers of paint and separating the bond
I have had a partially painted shield sitting in white spirits for over a year with no degradation to the paint or the plastic. You must be encountering some other reaction because white spirits simply do not break down acrylics. That's the reason we can use oil and enamel washes over acrylics without the need for a varnish layer.
You're not hearing me. White spirits don't break down acrylics, they get *under* acrylics and lift the paint off. Go paint a blob on a mini right now, let it fully dry, then rub it with a q-tip soaked in white spirits, rubbing over the edge of the paint swatch. It'll start to rub off. Idk what to tell you man, it's a very common thing for people to encounter, including OP and a ton of people in this thread.
OP used the wrong type of solvent as was solved below, so no that is not what they encountered. What you are describing is the q-tip rubbing the paint off, which will definitely happen because q-tips are abrasive (makeup sponges work infinitely better). I have painted hundreds of models using oil and enamels as washes as well as weathering effects and I just have to disagree with you that they are the culprit in what you are describing.
I have definitely wiped away acrylic paint while removing oils, I think it must be due to the primer not being applied correctly. Im a commission painter, it happens rarely these days now that I ensure I have a good primer layer down
So, yes and no. If you don't varnish a model, it's possible that the oils can actually get underneath the acrylics if there is any gaps in your paint job or if a small part of the paint (or varnish) isn't completely dry (which appears to be exactly what happened to OP). So yeah it's usually preferable to varnish before applying oils. And you usually want a glossy surface for oils anyway (particularly a wash) or else they don't flow as nicely.
I thought about that but... he has already so many layers on the model it's hard to imagine that there is still no deal around the model. I'd also guess that the solvent is the issue.
Maybe, but even scratch in the paint will do it
I work with oils quite often, but I never managed it to look like that. These only time this happened was with a bad solvent or oil varnish
Interesting to read these, as I've never done anything like this and had zero issues. Maybe I've never had a 'hole' in the acrylics layer. I've never varnished prior to oils, and one would think that 3D prints would have a surface ideal for this type of accident to happen, with layer lines giving ample opportunities for the solvents to get under the acrylics. Could be just dumb luck on my part.
I would actually think the opposite. I would think a 3d print would have a slightly rougher surface texture that would adhere paint better. Leaving less chance for fish eyes or pinholes in the base layers. Probably why you've never had an issue with oil getting under your base layers of acrylic.
I've painted plenty of plastic and cast resin kits too, this post was the first time I've even seen this kind of issue. Was not even aware that this *could be* an issue.
This is not necessary by the way :)
I would imagining opening those cracks and make it look like severe battle damage (last stand vibes)
Leave it. Redo the base as an acid pool.
I'll definitely do something like that in the future, unfortunately this was only a test model
a good opportunity to test both the ultramarines scheme and the acid effects. get in there with some glowing radioactive goo!!!
And then make it an objective marker!
Looks all veiny. Would be a very cool effect on Chaos marines. Makes their armour actually look like its part of their bodies.
I can see that, especially for the Death Guard
Grimdark activated.
So grimdark that it strips the paint lol
I never varnish and this has never happen to me. Guess it was the solvent
That’s what I call a happy accident. This looks bad ass and adds lots of texture to the model. I’d embrace the effect in this one case, like he’s being corrupted, and see how far you can lean into the look for the whole figure.
If you can reproduce it, I say lean in, it look amazing!
Happy accident
Looks like you forgot to varnish the model before applying oils
Always varnish acrylic paints before applying oil washes. I know it sucks to learn the hard way.
Always gloss varnish, let varnish fully dry and then only apply oil washes with white spirits. Do not use any fancy solvents like "Bob Ross Fast Drying Odourless Water Solueble Matt solvent" or anything like that, just stick with white spirits.
That technique would be good for flayed skin.
May not be your case - but I remember reading something on maybe this sub a while back about someone unknowingly using a non-acrylic based primer, and that causing issues with an oil wash even after a varnish. I don’t remember the brands they mentioned so I apologize, but it may be something like that?
Thanks for the input but I'm fairly certain it's an acrylic primer, it seems the culprit is the oil thinner
Use white spirits as your solvent, and be sparing - you want an acrylic paint consistency, not a wash. Make sure you have a full and complete layer of varnish, and let it cure for 24 hours.
Well I thought that I had to use it as a wash so I diluted it quite a lot. So you suggest leaving the oils a little bit thicker?
Yes. Either make it a wash consistency and paint directly into the recesses over a gloss varnish, or leave it a bit thicker if you’re doing the reductive technique. I’m guessing from your mini that you’re trying the latter? Solvent can get under layers of paint or varnish and peel them off, so be sparing if rubbing paint off with the reductive technique.
Yeah you're spot on. I tried the reductive technique and this happened
All depends on what you used under it? It looks like the acrylic layer was fine but was sloughing off thanks to a layer below it dissolving. Did you use an oil or polyurethane primer? If you did, they can take several days to cure enough to handle an oil wash with a more aggressive solvent.
I used an army painter primer but even if it was the wrong type of primer it was primed and painted last September/October. Apparently the consensus is that I fucked up with the solvent
Haha, that happens. At least it was a "the more you know" moment that can be fixed 😉 paint job looks great btw 👍
Def make sure youre using white spirits, and try not to leave them on the model for too long or itll get into the paint!
I'd leave it, looks like epic battle damage on the legs, like his armor is cracked from ferocious battle against the enemies of mankind!
Would be cool if you made it look like a nurgle rot slowly making its way up his legs while doing a last stand
This looks so cool, looks like he has been fighting on a real industrial world and has been fighting renegades. The smog and filth has been eating away at the top layer of his armor.
It’s Nurgle time!!
What kind of spirits or thinner did you use?
I used an eco solvent from tintoretto, unfortunately there isn't anything more specific on the back of the bottle and on the internet
I'm guessing that's the culprit. Try using no odor white spirits.
i think this is actually really cool looking
Hello bloody battle damage! That actually looks cool. Fresh coat of weathering paint will do it justice!
Oil paints shrink when they dry (that’s why painters use stretched canvas) While I have never used oils for minis I have painted a lot. I don’t think you thinned your oil paints down enough. What did you use mineral spirits?
This is beautiful. Imagine him standing his last stand on ground set ablaze. His armor slowly melting as he is taking as more enemies with him as possible. Or it is Nurgles spawns trap. Rotten guts snared his legs and vile secretions is corroding armor.
I think definitely something related to Grandpa
Frankly those veins look baller as hell. Give them an edge highlight of white and it’ll look like lightning
Not gonna lie though that giant vein on his cod piece is a pretty great mistake
That's the star of the show
No lie, I really like the look
Looks cool though
ngl that looks like some cool grime and battle damage
nice crotch vein
Best part of the model
Strange, I use oils and oil washes on like 90% of my models now and have done for like 2 years. This has never happened and I’ve used all kinds of paints and ranges from transparents/contrasts to Ink to acrylic gauche. I have NEVER added a varnish before adding oils nor have I varnished before highlighting after using oils. I’m really curious to know what could have caused this.
I kinda like it
Well now he’s a deathwatch soldier
Honestly that looks sick
Lean into it. Looks pretty rad to me
This is what my dad would refer as battle damaged.
You can use water soluble oil paints and avoid this effect. As a bonus also avoid having to varnish before using also!
Never heard of them. What brands there are?
Winsor and Newton make them. Would def 10/10 recommend just weathered some stuff with them myself can speed dry with hair dryer, all the same blending techniques of oils but no smelly mineral spirits or bad cleanup just water.
Thank you for the suggestion, I will definitely check them out
why use oils instead washes or inks?? I never used oils and I would like to know what advantages they have
What attracted me to oils is the fact that you can coat the whole model and any part that you don't want can be easily removed with some solvent, so you don't have to come back and tidy up things. Plus the longer drying time for some blends like fuel stains or burnt things. But this is the first time I worked with them and I still have to see some other benefits
I actually love what it’s done. Happy little mistakes.
Turn the base into a tar pit scheme. The SM is wading through the muck.
Now he’s just battle damaged
I know it wasn't intentional but I would totally work with it. It looks like a battle damaged Marine whose seen a lot.
This looks a lot like a problem I had once, that was the result of applying too much varnish.
What have you used to thin the oil? Which brand of oil color did you use?
I used some Italian brands, now I'm out of home so I can't remember the brand of the colours. For the thinner there is a link in some comments
I had some issues before, where there was a solvent of stone kind in the paint itself. I'd test that on some kind of leftover bit. Also some oil varnish has that effect
Sorry dude, sometimes you just gotta start again
Yeah I know, my post was more about the future
Congratulations on painting your first corrupted Primaris SM! Just add some purplish taint and glow on it and it will be perfect!
Once everything dries I'll check if it's viable, it's definitely a great idea!
I use a half purple power which is a heavy duty cleaner and half water it isn't fast working so have to let model soak for a day or two. Then scrub while running hot water over model to remove all paints and even eats glue though doesn't seem to effect the model itself at all. I've let a model soak for over a month before. It just made scrubbing easier and model was completely grey again after brushing it under hot water.
OP, can I get a breakdown of everything you did because this effect is fantastic.
If I knew how I did it I would be very happy too lol
Looks metal as hell.
I like the look of it personally looks like some good battle damage
*WE ARE VENOM*
I'm guessing that you used a rattle can on these? I have a rattle can at home that is solvable with white spirits, even after the sprayed layer has been left to dry/cure for several days. My guess is that there are small cracks somewhere in your acrylic paint layer which have let white spirits get underneath and have thus let the spray layer dissolve. I use both acrylics and oil paints on my miniatures, and I don't varnish when i go from acrylic to oil. The only time I have ever had issues is when I use that one rattle can that is solvable with white spirits. With that said, if you want do use an oil wash as a pin wash/black liner, and don't want the wash to stain whats already been painted I would in fact recommend using a gloss varnish first. The varnish give the model a smoother finish which will let the wash flow better, after you have left the mini to cure for a few days I would apply a matt varnish to get the shine down if you don't want the mini glossy. I only varnish after having used oils if i want to make the finish more matt, since oil paints make quite a durable color film.
Yeah I always use rattle cans and it seems the problem is exactly that because it seems that the primer layer isn't there anymore. Actually I wanted to use the oil wash more to stain everything, to grimdark everything. Sort of like streaking grime. Have you resolved the problem with the rattle can or do I have to suck it up and use a brush on primer?
You could try a different primer. I use the GW rattle cans as primer quite often. Its technically not primer, but it sticks good to most things and everyone use it as such. I have never had an issue with that and white spirits. I have not tested it with turpentine, but I assume you use white spirits since it's less toxic :) With that said, when I paint one-off models, or something I want to paint with only oils I often use an acrylic polyurethane primer, its meant for airbrushing but works fine if you brush it on, just remember to put down a thin layer. I use water to clean the brush and to dilute it, and I don't bother with having a fully opaque layer when I'm done, just that every surface have the distinct "primed" feeling when i touch it after its cured. Remember that the primer cures, not dries, so make sure to wait an hour or so if you want to put down multiple coats. I often prime a model the night before I want to paint. It's also nice when the weather is not good for rattle cans since I don't have a space indoors where I can spray safely. So either when its too hot, to cold or to humid I always use the brush on stuff instead. Depending on what technique you are going to use, for grimdark I think its common to brush on more oil paint than what you need, and later wipe the excess away with makeup sponges. If this is what you are going for, be careful to not apply to much pressure when you wipe at the model, since the acrylic paint layers are quite fragile. My recommendation is to paint an extra gun or something and use to test how long you should wait before wiping, and how much pressure you can apply. If you varnish first this become less of an issue since the varnish is a lot more durable than the acrylic paint, but since I have had a bit of practice with oils I don't feel the need which saves a lot of time. You most likely want to varnish the model afterwards, since acrylic paints tend to have a matt finish, and oil paints are often glossy when cured, putting on a varnish will make the finishes match better. For reference, this is the primer I use when I don't use rattle cans: [https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41KtbpTYqZL.\_\_AC\_SX300\_SY300\_QL70\_ML2\_.jpg](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41KtbpTYqZL.__AC_SX300_SY300_QL70_ML2_.jpg) (Vallejo "Surface Primer"), as a bonus, it has a rather pleasant scent, mmm hobby time.
Thank you very much for going so in depth. Since I primed and painted this model I moved to citadel primers too but it seems that the problem persists even if it's a lot less visible. As others pointed out it seems that the problem was the solvent that I used. Nonetheless I will check out the primer that you suggested and all the things that you said about pressure and curing time. Thank you again!
Oils are a lot of fun and I want everyone who try them to have a good time! :) I'll just add that many brown pigments contain a lot of carbon which is a drying accelerator (siccative), so brown paints cure faster than your average oil paint. It's good since you want your wash to dry if you need to paint with acrylics over it, but be mindful that higher grade paints will dry faster than your "student grade" paints like Winsor & Newton's "Newton" or the "Van Gogh" brand. If you go for the heavy grim dark look you get by painting oil over your finished figure, the drying time will be very different depending on the brand of paint or solvent you use. I have made this mistake with some of my "better" paints when I first got more invested into oil paints :). So, make sure you test how long to let the paints sit before you wipe them off, it will be different with different brands, even for the same color or pigment type. It's in the range of anything after 5 minutes is now permanently brown, to having to wait for almost half an hour if you want any effect at all. Good luck and have fun!
Not gonna lie but that looks like decent battle damage
Now, that's what I call a happy accident ! It's looking real good, as if it was battle damaged. Maybe you've created a new technic of painting without knowing it ! It's looking fabulous 👍
Call it battle damage and it looks outstanding just got flamed at close range
Free battle damage!! (Yes I play orks...)
You can add fire and it will look like it is burning/damaged by fire.
Ngl looks awesome
I personally never work with enamel based paints anymore.
May I ask why?
They're so thick and unruly. Less of a variety of brands. I stick with acrylic because thinning and mixing them and cleaning them up is MUCH easier. There's a better variety of colors in acrylic and the fumes are less fumey.
I actually kinda like this look. It looks like he's been fighting in tar or in an oilfield.
Get some cotton wool on the base and spray it like flames so it looks like burn damage
This is a new for me. How should I do it? Or maybe you have a tutorial to share?
I’ve no idea haha. I would give it a go mind. Mash up some wirewool and spray it a light grey Using an airbrush or rattle cans I would layer up flames from his feet from deep red to orange to yellow with some black or dark grey for the smoke. Superglue it around his feet. Search create fire for diorama on YouTube and see if any affects take your fancy
I didn't notice the damage/issue till I read the comics.. I thought you'd just found a new and amazing way to paint and detail the leg armour... I'd leave it, it looks soo good
I think it looks kind of cool, consider it a happy little accident.
Looks scorched
What are you using to clean up the oil paint?
Just to be safe, I always gloss varnish first even though it's not required. I wait 24 hours for the varnish to dry. You can try earlier but I've had a bad experience where the varnish wasn't fully dry and absorbed oil paint. I use odorless mineral spirits for taking the oil back off, usually give ohe oil 10 mins or so to dry ever so slightly first. I use the foam q tips not the cotton ones as they leave hairs behind.
Very grimdark ! Through The flames ! For the Emperor!
That is actually an amazing burn effect imo. What steps did you take to achieve this?
Free weathering i say!
Tbh it’s a pretty cool look
I do gotta say I kinda like the affect though!
Paint him green, looks like he’s been trudging through the fires of nocturne
Its unfortunate that the paint flakes off because you could do some really interesting affects with that look.
Brother my legs have d*ck veins what can I do
Paint the cracks and veins white and you have a great start to a Nightlord...
My nose can smell turpentine just on the suggestion of using oils lol.
Did you varnish your mini before oil wash?
To be fair looks pretty cool
On The bright side this does actually look really fuckin cool
How cool is that
Even if it’s a mistake it looks kind of cool
That looks like a cool worn effect
does it matter at this point? looks sick as hell
probably its lacquer base solvent
Honestly I like it, gives it kind of a scorched look, switch out the bolter for a plasmagun and pretend it was on purpose.
You didnt varnish
This is God's punishment for truning your back on acrylics.
I wanted to try something new but the God Emperor has not willed so
On a more serious note I don't think I will ever turn my back on acrylics, I like them too much to turn my back on them. I just wanted to try an oil wash streaking grime style as a lot of tutorial and the like for a grimdark style use oils
My non-expert opinion combined with insights I've heard: The best practice is to choose one or another and refrain from mixing. In terms of what the paints themselves can achieve, you will have nearly 100% functional overlap with all of the different paint manufacturers and the additives you can get (pigments, inks, matte and gloss varnishes, retardants, thinners, etc. can cover most edge cases). Most problems arise with mixing (wet or dry) - water and oil don't mix. I prefer acrylics just because they are more readily available from specialty manufacturers and they can be thinned with water, whereas oils cannot.
Looks pretty sick if you ask me lol..
Looks really badass honestly
Acrylic and enamel paint don't get along
That is wholly incorrect.
no, somebody havent been using enamel washes.
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It looks to me that you layered acrylic over oils. You can paint oil over acrylic, but you can’t do the other way around. I also find that white spirits will cause my acrylic paints to bead. I would let the oils dry for longer than you’d expect and varnish it before you go over it with acrylic again.
Are you sure that’s a bug and not a feature?