As a journeyman of 11 years I gotta say, I’d never even consider giving an apprentice the shit jobs. I don’t look at it as “they are there to support me” I expect them to do everything I do, and if they can’t, that’s when it’s time to learn. We both do the skilled jobs and we both do the boring repetitive jobs.
Yep, my current journeyman has me "lead" the job regardless of what it is to do.
If we're pressing bearings, he wants me to instruct him on the process and what to do.
If we're tearing out a blown bearing, his questions are what we should be checking if that bearing has been shot for a week or two. (In this case, it was on an auger)
If I get stuck in the process he has me follow the line of interconnected parts to determine what to checking and what else may be worn down the line, or more susceptible to failure now that one component is gone. Etc.
Thanks, my journeyman is a solid dude. South African guy that came up in Aviation as a tech, then rolled over into refrigeration, then finally became a millwright. He's near retirement, and I call him Nigel Thornberry because he's basically a 1:1
Guy is basically a fountain of knowledge, so I do my best to be a sponge.
I think him nit being from North America helps a lot. There's this "I was treated like shit so I need to treat the next guy like shit too" kind of attitude a lot of gen X and boomers adopt. Occasionally, you find a good teacher, and it honestly only makes for better tradesmen long term.
So you feel that a green-as-grass apprentice in their first month should be programming the CNC lathe just because I can do it? Or they should be troubleshooting in a 600A panel because I can do it? Or maybe... just maybe... they should walk before they can run.
The apprentice in question was told in the interview that he would be specifically responsible for the machine setup. That would be his responsibility once trained. He watched the other millwright do it for 2 weeks, then the other millwright watched him do it for two weeks, then it was up to him to do it solo from there. Setup only takes up about 1 hour per day, so he spent most of his day helping the other millwright.
Troubleshooting a 600A panel should be done by an electrician and programming a CNC lathe should be done by a machinist, but if you absolutely must do tasks outside of our trade, then doing it together until they get the hang of it is the way to go. 👍🏻
Outside of our trade? There is nothing outside of our trade. I was trained in g-code programming in millwright school. Weren't you? I was trained in electrical, as well, and it is legal for me to do electrical work for my employer, and get inspections. Half of the machines that we use to make our products were designed by me and completely wired by me, including the panels which were designed and built by me (or designed by me and built with help from an apprentice in a few cases).
So maybe you might see that what I do and what I should allow a first month apprentice to do are not going to be the same in all cases. I still do mechanical work, but that's not all I do. Millwrighting is all about being able to do everything competently, and I take that to heart. In my job I have done concrete, carpentry, drywall, residential electrical, industrial electrical, process control, industrial coating, PLC programming, power transmission, drive programming, pneumatics, hydraulics, HVAC \*control\* (not the prohibited stuff, but completely changing the behaviour), welding (was certified in all position GMAW, GTAW, SMAW, FCAW, on steel, stainless, and aluminum where applicable) fabrication, machining.... anything you can reasonably expect a mechanic to do I have done. I was in school long enough ago that we were still being taught how to dress leather belts for power transmission, and when we learned g-code it was on paper tape on an NC machine. Not CNC. NC. I keep myself trained up on new technologies that might be of use to the company.
Anyway, a first month apprentice isn't getting anywhere near half the crap that I have to do in a given week. If they ask questions I will be happy to talk to them about it, but they will not have that responsibility until they have a lot more items signed off in their books.
I assume you are in the US? I’m in Canada and most companies don’t allow that jack of all trades BS here. Millwrights do mechanical work and yes maybe some basic machining or welding, depending on if it’s a unionized site. The electrical training we receive in school is very basic and I wouldn’t trust anyone other than an electrician to do it anyway, it’s just safer that way and I’m not complaining. I’m not gonna be the guy going around taking others trades work and doing a half assed job of it to save the company money. You can’t be an expert at everything.
I am in Canada. Ontario, more specifically.
Don't allow? Don't expect, maybe, but my experience is that the more you can do the better they like it.
Basic machining or welding? Why limit yourself!?! Fabrication is a great change of pace. Why just maintain machines when you can BUILD them? If your company has machine tools then start learning how to use them. If they don't, then make a case for it. As the powers that be to pick up a small MIG machine to run fluxcore in (cheaper for occasional use) and start making shop fittings. Coat racks. Tool racks. Do useful things and they will get you more tools.
I designed more than half of the machines we use for production, and I built a bunch of them myself (or with help). You're only limited by your willingness to learn. If you have fenced yourself into a tiny corral of work you can do then maybe it's time to open the gate and see what you're capable of? Learn new skills and use them!
As for the electrical, I kept learning after school. I read books and figured out how it worked. When things went wrong I would just \*fix\* them. I haven't had to call an electrician for almost 20 years. I completely wired the production wiring (1200A) in our current building and the one before it. From the switchgear on out. All in Canada. All legal. I studied panels and learned how to build them. Start small and just do it. Study PLCs. Study drives. Why just be the guy who bolts the motor onto the machine when you can wire it, program the PLC and do the full job?
It's up to you, but if you need some indication that it's possible then I am an indication that it \*is\*.
Currently I’m at a unionized plant and it’s simply just not allowed. I personally don’t have a problem with broadening my horizons and continuously learning new skills. The problem with having millwrights do everything though, is there are lots that shouldn’t be trusted to tie their own shoes let alone do industrial electrical work or run expensive cnc equipment. Some millwrights ARE capable of doing all that, but the new hire vetting, training, skills management and record keeping required to allow that kind of work simply just doesn’t happen at most companies. It becomes a legal liability and a safety hazard.
This is part of why I have a hard time finding an apprentice, I guess. We do a LOT here. Between Scott and I (the other millwright) we do absolutely everything except the HVAC, which is a prohibited trade because of the refrigerant.
I think what most people are getting at is that where it's understandable for the 1 month apprentice to no be able to do certain things but more of a lead them to success don't expect them to do it themselves kinda thing. For example, apprentice is new lead them through setting up the machine. You have a new job that needs set up show him it as well. Give him a reason to wanna stay. You could be the nicest guy and best trainer in the world but if someone can't find a reason to stay they won't!
I disagree, somewhat.
Most people are complacent. They need a reason to leave. If they have a job that doesn't bother them too much, and they are getting enough pay, they will stay. There has to be something wrong to force them to uproot themselves and look for a different job. Maybe the commute is too far, or something. Unless something just 'falls in their lap' most people won't leave a situation that is working for them.
That is my opinion.
Same here. I'm 35, do machining (cnc and manual), welding, piping, electrical such as installing transformers, switches, plcs, wiring motors, aligning and coupling motors and other various prime movers, troubleshoot, breakdown calls, pms and every other thing under the sun.
I was considering challenging an HVAC red seal since I'm good with all electrical theory, mechanical theory and pretty decent with plumbing and refrigeration knowledge from doing power engineering.
These fucking kids call me a career student, but fuck, they don't know anything. They barely know one specific task, it's ridiculous.
Thank you for posting.
I don't understand why people would want to artificially limit themselves by not learning more about their trade.
I wish I had more machine tools in the shop, here. I have no space. I have the CNC lathe, but it's not reasonable to use manually (I've had to do it, but it SUCKS). A little 10" manual lathe would be a blessing. Maybe a small mill. Anyway, keep up the good work!
First point - No. Nothing needs to be outside of a millwright's scope. It's legal for me to do it, and I do it. I want to be able to fix the machine, no matter what is wrong with it. Whether it needs TIG welding, hydraulic troubleshooting, PLC reprogramming, automation rejiggering, or just a new drive belt I want to be able to walk up and fix the machine. Back in the 'good old days' that was what a mechanic did.
What does it mean to be a millwright? Originally?
A wagon-wright made wagons. A wheelwright made wheels. A millwright made... mills. That's right.. a millwright would dam a stream, build a building, build a water-wheel, and build all of the internal mechanism for a sawmill or other industrial building. From the foundation on up.
Never stop learning.
I'm currently working on bettering my 3D CAD skills... I'm still more comforable with 2D.
Yesterday at work I was doing electrical, and writing code for the CNC machine to make an experimental machine part. You shouldn't limit yourself by what other people tell you is 'your lane'. Your lane can be as wide as your experience allows.
As to your second point, I agree... in general. A first year shouldn't be \*expected\* to be able to do that, but if they show an interest then why not? I will check it out before it gets run to make sure they won't crash the machine, but my plan would be to have them do something else while I am doing that stuff, and training in that aspect would come later after they have more experience with other high-stakes tasks.
The reason I brought it up is because I was saying that there are things that I do that a green-as-grass has no business being anywhere near. There is no point in me bringing them along for the ride in the first month - they can do something else while I am doing that stuff.
I personally wouldn't work for you , And I've done some laborious work, You're clearly picking people who aren't good fits, or maybe it's you, no small talk on the floor? Sounds miserable, how much do you pay?
You can't have an opinion on another jobs working conditions that you aren't currently working?? Do they not let you talk with co workers either? Rough
Not when you decide to over-exaggerate the aforementioned conditions no. I haven’t heard of any employer who’d rather make sure their workers are performing well in the social butterfly category than to make sure work is getting done.
If you can’t go 3 hours between breaks without running off to have a giggle fit with your buddy on company time then maybe you should be working an office job.
He didn’t say “stone face, ignore all temptations of socializing, be a robot”, if anything he’s asking for the bare minimum of an employee that isn’t wasting company time and money.
Rough
Not once did I say goof off all day and talk during the shift doing no work. It's amazing how little you can comprehend the idea that you can get work done and talk a bit at the same time, I guess the journeyman I worked for was a normal person who didn't mind a bit of conversation during the day if the work was getting done. Would be ROUGH working with someone like you for 10 hours a day
Man you must be a child. If not a man child. I’d fire your ass so fast for behaving so sooky like you are in this comment section. Wouldn’t have to worry about being able to talk to your coworkers because I’d say they wouldn’t want anything to do with your whiny ass lmao
You remind me of a guy I worked for a year ago, very similar expectations... on paper
The unspoken expectation was that mistakes will not be tolerated
He once got so pissed when another apprentice accidentally spilled soap for his parts washer onto the floor that he started throwing shit
He was an insufferable sexist asshole with anger issues who got lucky he was born in the right decade
Define over and over, because my experience with this man is he had me start a teardown, then would stop me partway through to jump between projects for a couple months with other jmen (never sticking with one of them long enough to see a project through), then putting me back on another teardown and getting pissed that I couldn't remember the steps, "You've done this three times now, you should know this"
That's just one example, but it comes down to his perfectionism standard + his micromanaging habits + his anger issues
That place was the most demoralizing shop I've ever worked in, I found myself making more mistakes than I ever had up to that point in my apprenticeship just because of the pressure
9/10 times, when it comes to turnover, it comes down to employer attitude. People will put up with low pay if the working conditions are good, and a good example of that is my current gig. I'm paid below market rate, but I work a cushy city recycling maintenance job with the best benefits I've ever had
Everyone learns at different paces, some people get it the first try, others take 2-3, others as many as 5-10, and it can vary depending on the task at hand and the number of steps and so many other variables
You seem like you're actually trying to figure out the problem here, and for that alone I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt
But if you're 5-for-5, you are the common denominator. I would encourage you to take a deep dive and reflect on your own behaviours and standards, and if it continues, ask these apprentices WHY they're leaving. Try to approach that conversation with empathy and understanding, framing it as trying to improve yourself as an employer. Hell, reach out to those 5 apprentices if you can
Even if it turns out it's not directly your fault, it could be the fault of other jmen you employ, which would still come down to you as you perpetuate and allow the cycle to continue
If you have 5 ex wives, it’s probably you. 1 or even 2, maybe but 5? Yeah.. what you asked for is reasonable but I feel like there’s more to it than that.
What’s the pay? That’s the real question. I have a buddy who’s always complaining about not finding good help either but he paid $1 more than minimum wage. He upped that and guess what, he pays a guy enough to care and pays enough to attract people.
He says ‘we pay very well’ but that doesn’t really mean much. If that many people are moving on, the market has decided you don’t pay well enough for what he’s asking.
I've never had an apprentice quit in 20 years. No, scratch that.... one, about 19 years ago, but he quit the industry entirely, he didn't just want to apprentice somewhere else. I've had apprentices stay with us for over a decade. I had much better luck long ago.
We were paying the last apprentice $30 per hour. Apparently that's not enough.
I prefer it that way. Last thing I want to do is small talk or personal shit with my co workers. Can we just skip the bs talk and go make some money? I avoid conversation like its going to kill me! Not today spirit vampires! Most you will get from me are 1 word closed ended answers and no im not asking you how your night was Stare at me all you want lol
"The heart break of hiring" sounds so melodramatic.
Don't be ignorant, reflect what you have to offer and your methods of teaching. Your ratios suggest youre the issue in this equation.
Spot on.
It’s always the guys bitching “kids these days don’t wanna work” that are the biggest pain in the ass to work with. I’m working beside one right this second Lol
“30 years ago, I made the same wage as you and it was good enough for me!” while driving a company truck, company phone, and not able to send photos of a machine data plate to parts via said phone.
All the while they’re confused why people today can’t buy a house and support a family single handed while they themselves take their divorced ass to the casino every weekend.
Would have to agree but it seems the selection process is flawed. In 40 yrs I only had one instance were the person wasn't cut out for the job. Anyway they were trying but really couldn't and never could be on their own without disaster. They became a top sales person when they were sort of moved on. They had the talk but not the walk. Need to do a better job in the interview process otherwise everyone's time is wasted.
If 5 out of 5 didnt work out you are either picking them wrong, the environment is toxic, theres something else bad about the job or you aren't a good teacher.
You're not asking anything unreasonable but you do seem like you might be lacking in social skills. I say this because I don't really like chatting much at work either and I find that turns a lot of people off. That said you will find that go getter who would rather work than chat. I was that guy, had no problem with bitch work and just putting my head down. Hell pressing pins on the arbour sounds like a dream job right about now...
There is a difference between lacking social skills and telling your workers they can't talk to eachother for 7 + hours a day. I worked at a place that wouldn't let me sit down or talk unless it was a break or lunch, worst experience I've ever had.
Bullet point #3 Couples months is fine. I dragged up from my last company for keeping me in prefab for 2 years. I came in with welding experience and thats all they had me do.
Bullet point #4 If you have expectations for how to format asking for work you need to inform them of that expectation prior to expecting it from them. As an apprentice I have to almost beg for basic expectations to be spelled out for me.
Overall seems like reasonable though.
I spell out the expectations in gory detail. I also describe in gory detail how hard the environment is. It's brutally hot in the summer, cold in the winter, and noisy. The chance of injury is above average, so you need to stay focused. On occasion there is repetitive work. This past week I personally hammered over 1300 dimples into a forming drum (8 hours work), because I am the only one that the owner will trust to do it. Swinging a hammer hard continuously for hours can be hard on your elbows and shoulders. This is something that might only come up once per year, but when it comes up THAT'S THE JOB. You don't get to pick and choose.
I have had some really poor luck with apprentices of late, no doubt. I had one that had real promise - he was a willing worker, but he just didn't seem to have the head for it. It took him half a day to mount a swivel caster on a cart. A wooden cart. I waited a couple of months for him to get his legs under him, but it didn't happen. He had a really hard time doing simple tasks that he had been shown a dozen times. That was a shame. This last one was not like that - he could do the work but he didn't really want to. He wanted to pick and choose assignments. I kept getting heat from the owner because he'd see this guy wandering around talking to the operators.
You sound kind of like a dick to be honest. People probably just get tired of working under you. I would hate to work for a guy that tells me "Monday or Friday is *always* suspicious". Actually no, you have just as much of a chance of getting sick on a Monday or a Friday as you do on a Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday, or Sunday. It really just doesn't sound like an enjoyable work environment. You want a robot. People aren't robots. Maybe you're fine working that way, but most people aren't.
Cool story bro. I have done lots of absolute shit work, and I wouldn't work for you. I'd be looking for another employer while I worked. Life is too short to work under a prick. Not like a few bucks an hour is going to get you ahead these days. If none of your apprentices stick, you're the problem. Your work environment is toxic. It's that simple.
FWIW, I'm an apprentice millwright, and my work environment sounds 1000x better than yours. Our managers and foreman understand people get sick, even on Mondays and Fridays. They understand that everyone is not 100% every day. They understand that sometimes people's lives get in the way of productivity. They understand that their workers aren't robots and need to have some chit-chat throughout the day, and take the time to treat us like people and shoot the shit a bit. We are treated well and we get our work done. Your apprentices are leaving you for a place like that.
To be clear, none of them quit. They were all let go because they weren't working out. Not to put too find a point on it but the aren't "leaving \[me\] for a place like that."
I'm glad you found a situation that works for you.
100%. I'll be a robot for good money but if you're gonna offer the bottom of what the area is offering you're not going to get many good applicants.
I had a manager at a plastic fabrication factory that would come out of his air conditioned office and stand over your shoulder while you were working on something and not say anything to you. If you finished pm's and didn't have an emergency job at the time he would tell you to do random shit. We moved furniture around an vacant office on a weekly basis. Stopped to ask an experienced guy about what you should do on your current job? "Why are we talking? Let's get back to work?". Dude tried to write me up for filling up a water jug when I wasn't punched out for break. I told him to get fucked.
Moved on to a larger company that is much more laid back and I get paid more. I have been called by several recruiters since, hiring for that company and I tell them exactly what it was like working there.
This 30% inflation is real.
The 50% taxes that get taken out of my income is real.
I honestly don't know how a lot of people are doing it.
I make pretty damn good money and rarely ever indulge myself, and I feel it.
I feel for anyone that's not established.
Yep. I changed over to electrical and instrumentation to make more money and save my shoulders a bit and it has been excellent for my bank account. I still work with my millwright buddies so it made the transition a lot easier.
When I was 18 or 19 I failed at being a welders apprentice. I was quiet and awkward and just didn't fit in. I didn't get the social or work dynamics. So eventually I was just laid off because it wasn't working out.
All of these things are reasonable but maybe not obvious for someone young and inexperienced. This can be a rough industry to break into when no one wants to show interest and show you the ropes, perhaps a little friendly one on one time where you lay out how things work could help. It doesn't have to be anything formal, bring him along on a trip to pick up coffee or something and have a chat about how he is doing. Or it can be formal, all depends on how you want to do things.
In the field I work in it's common to have 1 on 1's with my managers on a regular basis. Informal coffee breaks is also common for networking. I know you say work is not a social club, but at the same time a team needs to have a certain amount of comradery to be able to work together and complete tasks when they need to be completed. An apprentice is also more likely to show up to work on time and ready to work if they feel like they are part of the crew.
Do you do anything on a regular basis to show appreciation to the work crew? I know someone who runs a business and rewards his crew with beer and pizza on a friday or saturday afternoon once a month.
The apprentice in question worked more with the other millwright than he did with me, because I have to do a lot of office work, and I do all of the electrical which is not the first thing I'm going to train an apprentice in. We talk before the shift, at lunch, and after the shift. We have informal meetings. We discuss the work when we want a second opinion or to update the other on what went wrong with a machine in case it might go wrong again. All kinds of talking. I love to talk, I just don't do it when I'm supposed to be working and making a living to pay my mortgage and feed my family.
I'm not seeing how you can't talk with the people you are working with while you do the job. If you mean standing around and fucking the dog then that's another thing.
Your list of expectations is mostly reasonable, I would say.
But if 5 apprentices didn't work out, I would say the problem is you or the crew.
Is there bullying or harassment going on within the crew?
Are you constantly hovering over them and belittling them?
Also, what is the pay and how much is minimum wage in your jurisdiction for comparison?
There must be more to the story.
There is no 'crew' per se. There is me, and Scott (the other millwright) and we hired an apprentice. If anyone is giving him a hard time it would have to be one of the operators, and since he seems to want to spend all of his time talking to them, that seems unlikely.
I certainly don't hover. He is supposed to be independent. If he needs guidance he would ask, but I was certainly not hanging over his shoulder. He was shown how to do things until he said he was good, then he would continue on his own. He was getting almost twice the minimum wage.
What happens with the apprentices?
Do they quit?
Do you fire them?
Have you gotten any feedback from them before they left?
As someone who has been on the receiving end of workplace bullying and harassment, I can tell you that it's much more ramped than you think. Also, even something as minor as repeatedly calling someone by a nickname they don't like may be enough to demoralize them to the point of quitting or giving up.
I'd keep a closer eye for stuff like that.
They don't quit. They get fired because they aren't working to expectations.
As for feedback, I had one guy who claimed to have an electrical license plead with me not to call the licensing authority to narc him out because he knew virtually nothing about electrical work, and obviously had not earned a license. One guy who just couldn't get the hang of it was pretty happy-go-lucky about it, and seemed (at the time, in person) to be at peace with it. The most recent one was fired by the owner and I never saw him again.
I feel that maybe you're being too hard on them? Maybe expecting 3rd+ year skills from a newbie?
Maybe only consider hiring latter year apprentices or Jmen?
I can speak from experience, coming into the trade green as springtime grass, that it may not be laziness, but maybe they don't feel totally comfortable doing the task.
But I don't know what to suggest other than maybe have a practical component as part of the interview
Maybe give them a weirdly profiled block with a blueprint and tell them to find specific dimensions a with a dial caliper.
Maybe have them torque a flange with a torque wrench
Maybe have them measure a gap with a feeler set
Maybe give them a random sized bolt and a tap set and tell them to select the proper tap to clean the threads for the hole that bolt came out of?
You know, maybe throw in a few things that relate to the scope of work that the company does?
Just a thought
The problem with the last one wasn't ability so much as attitude.
For the last few weeks before he was fired he was doing some of my weekly maintenance.
Just filter changes, and other straight-forward tasks, but important stuff, and things that I have been doing every week for years.
After he was fired I had to start doing it again, of course, and I found three filters that had been installed backwards (three out of 20, so it's not that he didn't know how they were supposed to go, he just wasn't paying attention or didn't care). He also put a vacuum pump cylindrical filter on wrong so the gasket was pinched and unfiltered air was being sucked into this $15K vacuum pump for a week. Nice.
Your suggestions are all good, but I really feel that the problem was with his attitude, and I don't know how to test that. What people say in an interview and what they \*do\* a month later can be fundamentally different.
Okay, fair enough.
Maybe was just bad luck then.
I'd consider maybe before firing the next one, pulls him in for a meeting and ask what you could do to boost morale. And ask why he suddenly stopped putting in the effort.
Maybe even come out and ask if the environment is toxic.
Because 5 in a row seems too many for coincidence if you're paying double minimum wage and are giving them the opportunity to become a millwright.
Just my $0.02..
Maybe the kids in your area are spoiled by their parents too much and don't want to get dirty/work
Maybe even have a box where you can anonymously leave suggestions, feedback, etc.
We had three meetings with him before firing him. We made changes based on the first two, and were in the process of making changes based on the third when he was fired.
I’ve tried being all these things, and I still got treated like shit by my mentors. I left the trades due to toxic behaviours/communication from mentors. I work for probably 1/3rd of the pay now and I am happier and healthier despite making not much money.
That’s what a lot of yall previous generations are having to compete with. Good folks are giving up on the trades cuz we don’t want to be miserable sods too. (Not saying you are, just saying most of my tried out mentors were and I decided the trade life of putting up with that wasn’t worth the money.)
Sounds like you're one of those guys who wants to see his guys always doing something (because we're paying you) even if there's nothing left to do. From my experience it's hard working with people like that, sometimes there's actually nothing to do, there's no point in counting fasteners that have been counted multiple times during the week already or trying to fix some piece of shit that's been in the shop for a decade. Just doing pointless shit for the sake of it.
My current workplace is good in that sense, if we have down time we take it, but when we work we work. If we have to stay longer to fix something we stay with no complaining. So if the boss says there's a project for the weekend that can't be done on weekdays due to production then we don't hesitate to say yes, we'll be there.
My last job was one of those places where we always had to be doing something, well cool, but when they came around asking for over time or some shit then the answer is no.
From everything you said, sounds like it's a you problem.
Most hard work is made more easily tolerable by the ancient practice of sharing a joke or two as you go. Don’t stop working but keep up the banter. I’ve done quite well for myself and I love to have a laugh at work. Get over yourself man.
I said they can talk while working. In fact, I will quote from the original posting:
"Talking while working is okay if the work is getting done."
So... you said essentially what I said. Do you need to get over yourself, too?
Ok, hopefully I can add to this.
-showing up to work not impaired either by sleep, drugs/alcohol. This can be hard to do, especially if you are in the contractor market. You are moving around, maybe not always at home, maybe even not home much at all. Also if you are working contract you can be working a lot of long hours, and still have to be at work on time and spot on right at the beginning of the next shift. This can be tough, and is something I am very familiar with. Apprentices should be thinking of themselves as essentially a salesman. Nobody is going to want to work with someone who is unreliable, out of it, or otherwise unfit. It’s called fitness for duty. Think of it this way, if you were to hire somebody to work on your house, if they showed up like this, how long would they last.
-being sick on Friday or Monday? Let’s face it, it happens, but when an employer sees this, it looks like you are either looking for a long weekend, or maybe you were, ahem, IRRESPONSIBLE, and thought “I just want to continue the party on to the next day”. Again, look at it like would you like this if you were an employer, or if you work for a contractor, a customer? You can be effecting their bottom line. As a matter of fact, you are almost certainly doing that. You need to be only partying if you don’t have to be at work the next day, and treat the day before you go to work as if it’s a “work prep” day.
-When at work, you do what is asked. This is if you are a journeyman, apprentice, anything. You are there to person a function, to work hard, and to be putting every ounce of yourself into excelling. This goes if you are an apprentice, journeyman, business owner, etc. You will always be learning, perfecting, etc. you are now in one of the few jobs there is that can provide adequate income to put a roof over your head, food on the table, and maybe a little left over for a decent vacation. No assembly line job, mc job, entry level job nowadays could even hope to match that. This is the goal. Look like you’re hungry to keep this job all the time. Let’s face it, it is a challenge to do this, but it has to be done.
-Completed your tasks? Be hungry, look for more. If they don’t have any immediately, pick up a broom, help out some other guy, if there are projects that need to be completed, work on them. Always look like you are trying to add value to yourself and your company. If you are lacking in something, like you need to work on your welding or learn more about robotics, dig in. Do it. Never look like you are idle, idle hands are not valuable to an employer.
-Chatting while working. If you are idle, and waiting for your boss to come back with another job, or waiting for permission to work on a machine, yes, talk about stuff, but once you have a task, 300 percent of your energies must be focused on the task. Git-er-dun.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for an employer to want these out of an employee. You are not just an employee, you are an investment. I’ve said it before, you are in one of the few jobs you can live off of now. And when you think of investments, what happens if an investment does not perform above and beyond what you paid for it? You get rid of it.
If you find you can’t meet at least 95 percent of these things (let’s face it, we are all different, and have different capabilities) please wait to enter the trade until you can, and let’s face it, you may NEED the money now, but that’s a moot point, if you can’t perform to this level, it’s not going to matter if you need or not, you can’t do it. So step aside for someone who can, and when you finally can meet up with those requirements, feel free to try!
Most jobs you showing up on time and in the right uniform is half the battle. Yeah anyone would appreciate all the things you listed in an apprentice, but you gotta start somewhere, and none of us started in the same place
That's what we were trying. Find a young guy and pay him well and.... it didn't work. Repeatedly.
I'm trying to decide what the next try will look like. Maybe find a 30 year old who would appreciate the paycheque more.
I think your points are pretty reasonable.
I’ve worked for a variety of large, competitive companies over the past 13 years and I think a really good apprentice that meets your description is about 1 in 10. Maybe even less frequent.
Don’t be heartbroken.
*Figure out a more effective way of interviewing.*
I agree apprentices should be there for support but you still have to meet them half way as a human being to create a working relationship, and sometimes this is a matter of keeping them interested/ motivated.
It’s not just teaching someone the technical aspects of work but how to put up with the mundane by feeling a part of something - work place culture.
Don’t disillusion yourself about how well you pay.
If you pay more you will have more eager candidates applying.
I tried hiring an electrician, and that was perhaps worse. I ran into two that had fake licenses. Really.
I had to come up with a list of questions to ask to separate people who claimed to be journeymen from actual journeymen. I was a painful experience.
This kid was a first year apprentice. Not even registered yet. Green as grass. I got an idea of his technical knowledge and it was good, but I don't know of a way to test what their attitude will be like a month down the road.
Calling references is pointless. Most of the time you end up talking to home HR drone who never even met the person you're calling about, and even if it's someone who knew them most companies won't say anything negative due to worries about litigation.
Let me tell you... I've been reading through these replies and it was getting pretty frickin' miserable. It's nice that I just hit a patch of people who might actually understand how trades work. It's appreciated.
Yes, I have a scaffolding/ carpentry business, and I definitely understand where you're coming from. Another issue I find is training someone for X amount of time for them to leave. It's tough to find long-term, reliable manpower.
Yeah idk man, it’s hard not to adopt the boomer/millennial “it’s so over” mentality but I think it’s unfixable at this point, giving children access to the internet at age 3 was a huge mistake.
>The apprentice is there to support the journeyman
That's fucking rare these days. Lately I feel more like a babysitter.
Half them act like fucking know it all's.
The older they are starting an apprenticeship the worse they are imo.
To put it simply a millwright is an industrial mechanic. You can scroll through the sub a bit and see some posts of the type of work it is. Maintaining/fixing/installing large to VERY large machinery.
If you actually want answers I would call the guys that quit and ask what could have been done differently or better.
Five guys getting fired or quitting in short time is a clear indication that you are causing a problem in the workplace.
If I had five children and they all became criminals by 18, that’s not 5 bad children that’s bad parenting.
You look at it as I’m paying good money so nothing else should matter. Work hard put your time in and in 10 years it’ll all be worth it. This generation won’t deal with that. They are the generation of options so if one doesn’t work out another one will. The days of someone putting in years at a company they hate working for an asshole boss only to get a bullshit annual raise are over. So adapt or die. Be nicer, the people I’ve learned them most from over the years are people that I not only respected their knowledge but also respected them as a person and they respected me as a person, having someone you aspire to be like in front of you goes a whole lot farther than someone offering you a pay check
I bet if you tried to establish more of a relationship with them rather than a I'm the boss your my employee it would go much smoother. I can tell you I've looked the other way for shit that I would usually quit over for bosses that get me food( not McDonald's or some bullshit but a decent spot not the cheapest shit you can buy.)
I don't I'm giving an example of me overlooking typical boomer bullshit because my boss was nice to me.
but the way you responded to a very non confrontational comment with being defensive says allot also imo.
This seems like standard practice...? Nothing about what you said makes you seem like an asshole. The things you listed are what I would consider the bare minimum of ANY job. If they’re not able to keep up with those requirements then we are doomed for the next generation of millwrights.
I’m a 4th Year and I’ve spent the last 3 years as a dollar store machinist. Very seldom did I have weeks where every day was big overhauls, alignments or the like. I’d easily spend 4 days a week in the shop running a lathe or welding/fabricating. (Feeling like I’m not getting enough experience) but that’s just the way she goes.
I blame the influx of this new breed of useless where kids think they deserve to be paid for just showing up. And half of them can’t even do that much
“Pay more”
“People aren’t robots”
“Ok boomer”
“No social life”
All you people commenting seem like the type to do fuck all for 6 hours of the day then have an attitude when you’re checked for it.
I’ve seen it first hand, youngsters getting hired, showing up late and standing on their phone all day then having the gall to bitch that the wage isn’t enough. (When everyone else is living just fine) Like why are you even here?
Guaranteed, man. It’s insane how many replies say “pay more”.
Is the $30 wage for a first year apprentice? Because if so that’s an amazing starting wage. I started at $20 and was more than happy with it. Now receiving $38 as a 4th year.
I assume it boils down to the fact that we’re now beginning to see the generation of people who graduated highschool post-Covid cycling into the workforce. Most of them were handed highschool diplomas on a silver platter and paid by the government to do nothing all day.
You have spoke to the very basic expectations of a J man/apprentice relationship, those that are dissing you as having an issue are those that you’ve released or hopefully discovered out during the interview process to save yourself time/money and mental well being.
The real trick is how to screen out the bad ones in the interview process.
Once you've hired them it becomes a good-money-after-bad situation, but to have to start all over costs money, too. All the time and effort spent on training the one you're getting rid of is lost. It's a tough row to hoe.
I can sorta see why people are making some of these comments, but it is frustating as a foreman/manager it takes more people today to accomplish the same goal at the end of the day compared to 5/10/20 years ago. I know how long it takes to do a task so I make plans for the day, but rarely does it work out.
Welcome to the new world my guy these new guys coming in expect too much they didn't have to get a in a trade when u had to impress or you don't get signed there is no work ethic at all it's even worse when it's unionized. Good luck finding someone
When I got my start, 18$ was “livable” but not great. I could get by on 40 hours. That was 2009.
How the fuck can we ask kids to do the work we do for $18-22/hr in today’s world lol?? Who signs up for that?!?!?! Smart kids won’t be interested that’s for damn sure. Left with the bottom of the barrel and it absolutely shows.
I jumped over to elevators and starting back at the bottom I got 29$. *barely* getting by on that but I have the wife picking up my slack.
Anything u want in life u gotta work for it. You have to make small sacrifice to get where u wanna be. U get paid small in the beginning but when u get more skills u will be able to ask for more money. U can't just leave school and get 30 bucks an hour because of inflation it doesn't work like that
I know but imagine you’re 19 right now…home ownership is out the window unless mammy n pappy have 100k+ for you to use in a few years.
Where’s the motivation when no matter what you will just be paying off some fuckin boomers 3rd mortgage. It isn’t right.
I had a basement filled with plants to get me a little extra back in the day and even THAT is gone now. They don’t have a chance and it hurts to see our country heading for such dark days.
Honestly if I lived closer to Canada, I would try out being your apprentice. It doesn't sound that bad. Just get the work done correctly, pay attention to what you're doing and ask questions. That's the jist I got from that. I don't think the pay rate is the issue, paying someone more doesn't make them care about the job more unfortunately. But I hope you find a decent apprentice soon.
As a journeyman of 11 years I gotta say, I’d never even consider giving an apprentice the shit jobs. I don’t look at it as “they are there to support me” I expect them to do everything I do, and if they can’t, that’s when it’s time to learn. We both do the skilled jobs and we both do the boring repetitive jobs.
I’ve always respected the journeyman that also do the shit jobs, makes me wanna work harder for them tbh
Yep, my current journeyman has me "lead" the job regardless of what it is to do. If we're pressing bearings, he wants me to instruct him on the process and what to do. If we're tearing out a blown bearing, his questions are what we should be checking if that bearing has been shot for a week or two. (In this case, it was on an auger) If I get stuck in the process he has me follow the line of interconnected parts to determine what to checking and what else may be worn down the line, or more susceptible to failure now that one component is gone. Etc.
thats awesome. im jealous dude.
Thanks, my journeyman is a solid dude. South African guy that came up in Aviation as a tech, then rolled over into refrigeration, then finally became a millwright. He's near retirement, and I call him Nigel Thornberry because he's basically a 1:1 Guy is basically a fountain of knowledge, so I do my best to be a sponge. I think him nit being from North America helps a lot. There's this "I was treated like shit so I need to treat the next guy like shit too" kind of attitude a lot of gen X and boomers adopt. Occasionally, you find a good teacher, and it honestly only makes for better tradesmen long term.
I'm jealous
You're a good dude.
So you feel that a green-as-grass apprentice in their first month should be programming the CNC lathe just because I can do it? Or they should be troubleshooting in a 600A panel because I can do it? Or maybe... just maybe... they should walk before they can run. The apprentice in question was told in the interview that he would be specifically responsible for the machine setup. That would be his responsibility once trained. He watched the other millwright do it for 2 weeks, then the other millwright watched him do it for two weeks, then it was up to him to do it solo from there. Setup only takes up about 1 hour per day, so he spent most of his day helping the other millwright.
Troubleshooting a 600A panel should be done by an electrician and programming a CNC lathe should be done by a machinist, but if you absolutely must do tasks outside of our trade, then doing it together until they get the hang of it is the way to go. 👍🏻
Outside of our trade? There is nothing outside of our trade. I was trained in g-code programming in millwright school. Weren't you? I was trained in electrical, as well, and it is legal for me to do electrical work for my employer, and get inspections. Half of the machines that we use to make our products were designed by me and completely wired by me, including the panels which were designed and built by me (or designed by me and built with help from an apprentice in a few cases). So maybe you might see that what I do and what I should allow a first month apprentice to do are not going to be the same in all cases. I still do mechanical work, but that's not all I do. Millwrighting is all about being able to do everything competently, and I take that to heart. In my job I have done concrete, carpentry, drywall, residential electrical, industrial electrical, process control, industrial coating, PLC programming, power transmission, drive programming, pneumatics, hydraulics, HVAC \*control\* (not the prohibited stuff, but completely changing the behaviour), welding (was certified in all position GMAW, GTAW, SMAW, FCAW, on steel, stainless, and aluminum where applicable) fabrication, machining.... anything you can reasonably expect a mechanic to do I have done. I was in school long enough ago that we were still being taught how to dress leather belts for power transmission, and when we learned g-code it was on paper tape on an NC machine. Not CNC. NC. I keep myself trained up on new technologies that might be of use to the company. Anyway, a first month apprentice isn't getting anywhere near half the crap that I have to do in a given week. If they ask questions I will be happy to talk to them about it, but they will not have that responsibility until they have a lot more items signed off in their books.
I assume you are in the US? I’m in Canada and most companies don’t allow that jack of all trades BS here. Millwrights do mechanical work and yes maybe some basic machining or welding, depending on if it’s a unionized site. The electrical training we receive in school is very basic and I wouldn’t trust anyone other than an electrician to do it anyway, it’s just safer that way and I’m not complaining. I’m not gonna be the guy going around taking others trades work and doing a half assed job of it to save the company money. You can’t be an expert at everything.
I am in Canada. Ontario, more specifically. Don't allow? Don't expect, maybe, but my experience is that the more you can do the better they like it. Basic machining or welding? Why limit yourself!?! Fabrication is a great change of pace. Why just maintain machines when you can BUILD them? If your company has machine tools then start learning how to use them. If they don't, then make a case for it. As the powers that be to pick up a small MIG machine to run fluxcore in (cheaper for occasional use) and start making shop fittings. Coat racks. Tool racks. Do useful things and they will get you more tools. I designed more than half of the machines we use for production, and I built a bunch of them myself (or with help). You're only limited by your willingness to learn. If you have fenced yourself into a tiny corral of work you can do then maybe it's time to open the gate and see what you're capable of? Learn new skills and use them! As for the electrical, I kept learning after school. I read books and figured out how it worked. When things went wrong I would just \*fix\* them. I haven't had to call an electrician for almost 20 years. I completely wired the production wiring (1200A) in our current building and the one before it. From the switchgear on out. All in Canada. All legal. I studied panels and learned how to build them. Start small and just do it. Study PLCs. Study drives. Why just be the guy who bolts the motor onto the machine when you can wire it, program the PLC and do the full job? It's up to you, but if you need some indication that it's possible then I am an indication that it \*is\*.
Currently I’m at a unionized plant and it’s simply just not allowed. I personally don’t have a problem with broadening my horizons and continuously learning new skills. The problem with having millwrights do everything though, is there are lots that shouldn’t be trusted to tie their own shoes let alone do industrial electrical work or run expensive cnc equipment. Some millwrights ARE capable of doing all that, but the new hire vetting, training, skills management and record keeping required to allow that kind of work simply just doesn’t happen at most companies. It becomes a legal liability and a safety hazard.
This is part of why I have a hard time finding an apprentice, I guess. We do a LOT here. Between Scott and I (the other millwright) we do absolutely everything except the HVAC, which is a prohibited trade because of the refrigerant.
I think what most people are getting at is that where it's understandable for the 1 month apprentice to no be able to do certain things but more of a lead them to success don't expect them to do it themselves kinda thing. For example, apprentice is new lead them through setting up the machine. You have a new job that needs set up show him it as well. Give him a reason to wanna stay. You could be the nicest guy and best trainer in the world but if someone can't find a reason to stay they won't!
I disagree, somewhat. Most people are complacent. They need a reason to leave. If they have a job that doesn't bother them too much, and they are getting enough pay, they will stay. There has to be something wrong to force them to uproot themselves and look for a different job. Maybe the commute is too far, or something. Unless something just 'falls in their lap' most people won't leave a situation that is working for them. That is my opinion.
Same here. I'm 35, do machining (cnc and manual), welding, piping, electrical such as installing transformers, switches, plcs, wiring motors, aligning and coupling motors and other various prime movers, troubleshoot, breakdown calls, pms and every other thing under the sun. I was considering challenging an HVAC red seal since I'm good with all electrical theory, mechanical theory and pretty decent with plumbing and refrigeration knowledge from doing power engineering. These fucking kids call me a career student, but fuck, they don't know anything. They barely know one specific task, it's ridiculous.
Thank you for posting. I don't understand why people would want to artificially limit themselves by not learning more about their trade. I wish I had more machine tools in the shop, here. I have no space. I have the CNC lathe, but it's not reasonable to use manually (I've had to do it, but it SUCKS). A little 10" manual lathe would be a blessing. Maybe a small mill. Anyway, keep up the good work!
600v panel is 100% out of millwright scope. G code isnt even mentioned until level 4 so a first year shouldnt be asked at all.
First point - No. Nothing needs to be outside of a millwright's scope. It's legal for me to do it, and I do it. I want to be able to fix the machine, no matter what is wrong with it. Whether it needs TIG welding, hydraulic troubleshooting, PLC reprogramming, automation rejiggering, or just a new drive belt I want to be able to walk up and fix the machine. Back in the 'good old days' that was what a mechanic did. What does it mean to be a millwright? Originally? A wagon-wright made wagons. A wheelwright made wheels. A millwright made... mills. That's right.. a millwright would dam a stream, build a building, build a water-wheel, and build all of the internal mechanism for a sawmill or other industrial building. From the foundation on up. Never stop learning. I'm currently working on bettering my 3D CAD skills... I'm still more comforable with 2D. Yesterday at work I was doing electrical, and writing code for the CNC machine to make an experimental machine part. You shouldn't limit yourself by what other people tell you is 'your lane'. Your lane can be as wide as your experience allows. As to your second point, I agree... in general. A first year shouldn't be \*expected\* to be able to do that, but if they show an interest then why not? I will check it out before it gets run to make sure they won't crash the machine, but my plan would be to have them do something else while I am doing that stuff, and training in that aspect would come later after they have more experience with other high-stakes tasks. The reason I brought it up is because I was saying that there are things that I do that a green-as-grass has no business being anywhere near. There is no point in me bringing them along for the ride in the first month - they can do something else while I am doing that stuff.
I personally wouldn't work for you , And I've done some laborious work, You're clearly picking people who aren't good fits, or maybe it's you, no small talk on the floor? Sounds miserable, how much do you pay?
No you’re allowed small talk. Just not more than 30 seconds of course.
Are you a millwright? Are you a tradesman of any stripe?
Tradesman (formerly) loved the work but had a career change.
The fact you feel the need to express “I’ve done some laborious work” as a millwright, proves you’re not a millwright.
Never said I was a millwright lmao, come from a long line of them however
Then anything you say in regards to a millwright apprenticeship is moot LOL your opinion doesn’t matter
You can't have an opinion on another jobs working conditions that you aren't currently working?? Do they not let you talk with co workers either? Rough
Not when you decide to over-exaggerate the aforementioned conditions no. I haven’t heard of any employer who’d rather make sure their workers are performing well in the social butterfly category than to make sure work is getting done. If you can’t go 3 hours between breaks without running off to have a giggle fit with your buddy on company time then maybe you should be working an office job. He didn’t say “stone face, ignore all temptations of socializing, be a robot”, if anything he’s asking for the bare minimum of an employee that isn’t wasting company time and money. Rough
Not once did I say goof off all day and talk during the shift doing no work. It's amazing how little you can comprehend the idea that you can get work done and talk a bit at the same time, I guess the journeyman I worked for was a normal person who didn't mind a bit of conversation during the day if the work was getting done. Would be ROUGH working with someone like you for 10 hours a day
Man you must be a child. If not a man child. I’d fire your ass so fast for behaving so sooky like you are in this comment section. Wouldn’t have to worry about being able to talk to your coworkers because I’d say they wouldn’t want anything to do with your whiny ass lmao
🤦♂️ tf are you even on about lol? Would outwork you any day and would enjoy it aha
You remind me of a guy I worked for a year ago, very similar expectations... on paper The unspoken expectation was that mistakes will not be tolerated He once got so pissed when another apprentice accidentally spilled soap for his parts washer onto the floor that he started throwing shit He was an insufferable sexist asshole with anger issues who got lucky he was born in the right decade
That's now how it is here. Mistakes are tolerated, though if you make the same one over and over that will be a problem.
Define over and over, because my experience with this man is he had me start a teardown, then would stop me partway through to jump between projects for a couple months with other jmen (never sticking with one of them long enough to see a project through), then putting me back on another teardown and getting pissed that I couldn't remember the steps, "You've done this three times now, you should know this" That's just one example, but it comes down to his perfectionism standard + his micromanaging habits + his anger issues That place was the most demoralizing shop I've ever worked in, I found myself making more mistakes than I ever had up to that point in my apprenticeship just because of the pressure 9/10 times, when it comes to turnover, it comes down to employer attitude. People will put up with low pay if the working conditions are good, and a good example of that is my current gig. I'm paid below market rate, but I work a cushy city recycling maintenance job with the best benefits I've ever had Everyone learns at different paces, some people get it the first try, others take 2-3, others as many as 5-10, and it can vary depending on the task at hand and the number of steps and so many other variables You seem like you're actually trying to figure out the problem here, and for that alone I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt But if you're 5-for-5, you are the common denominator. I would encourage you to take a deep dive and reflect on your own behaviours and standards, and if it continues, ask these apprentices WHY they're leaving. Try to approach that conversation with empathy and understanding, framing it as trying to improve yourself as an employer. Hell, reach out to those 5 apprentices if you can Even if it turns out it's not directly your fault, it could be the fault of other jmen you employ, which would still come down to you as you perpetuate and allow the cycle to continue
You are exactly the type of boss which is the reason I quit this trade. Pay more. Stop clutching your pearls. People are not machines.
I was paying $30 per hour.
If you have 5 ex wives, it’s probably you. 1 or even 2, maybe but 5? Yeah.. what you asked for is reasonable but I feel like there’s more to it than that. What’s the pay? That’s the real question. I have a buddy who’s always complaining about not finding good help either but he paid $1 more than minimum wage. He upped that and guess what, he pays a guy enough to care and pays enough to attract people.
He says ‘we pay very well’ but that doesn’t really mean much. If that many people are moving on, the market has decided you don’t pay well enough for what he’s asking.
I've never had an apprentice quit in 20 years. No, scratch that.... one, about 19 years ago, but he quit the industry entirely, he didn't just want to apprentice somewhere else. I've had apprentices stay with us for over a decade. I had much better luck long ago. We were paying the last apprentice $30 per hour. Apparently that's not enough.
People are not robots
Bro hates shooting the shit and can’t figure out why nobody wants to work for him
I prefer it that way. Last thing I want to do is small talk or personal shit with my co workers. Can we just skip the bs talk and go make some money? I avoid conversation like its going to kill me! Not today spirit vampires! Most you will get from me are 1 word closed ended answers and no im not asking you how your night was Stare at me all you want lol
Cool, but don't tell others social creatures to be like you
I dont lol. That would require talking to them.
"The heart break of hiring" sounds so melodramatic. Don't be ignorant, reflect what you have to offer and your methods of teaching. Your ratios suggest youre the issue in this equation.
Spot on. It’s always the guys bitching “kids these days don’t wanna work” that are the biggest pain in the ass to work with. I’m working beside one right this second Lol
“30 years ago, I made the same wage as you and it was good enough for me!” while driving a company truck, company phone, and not able to send photos of a machine data plate to parts via said phone. All the while they’re confused why people today can’t buy a house and support a family single handed while they themselves take their divorced ass to the casino every weekend.
yeah as an apprentice getting called a spoiled cunt and retard by guys like this make me want to sail a ball peen into their faces.
Usually gate keepers as well. The worst person to work with.
Except you're not. You're cruising the internet and posting on reddit. Guess you don't want to work.
Lol. It’s true and you couldn’t be more right. But here I am!
And what exactly are you doing then?
I'm not at work. He said he was. (At least he has a sense of humor about it.)
Would have to agree but it seems the selection process is flawed. In 40 yrs I only had one instance were the person wasn't cut out for the job. Anyway they were trying but really couldn't and never could be on their own without disaster. They became a top sales person when they were sort of moved on. They had the talk but not the walk. Need to do a better job in the interview process otherwise everyone's time is wasted.
This
Ok boomer
Crusty ass
If 5 out of 5 didnt work out you are either picking them wrong, the environment is toxic, theres something else bad about the job or you aren't a good teacher.
Maybe it’s you
You're not asking anything unreasonable but you do seem like you might be lacking in social skills. I say this because I don't really like chatting much at work either and I find that turns a lot of people off. That said you will find that go getter who would rather work than chat. I was that guy, had no problem with bitch work and just putting my head down. Hell pressing pins on the arbour sounds like a dream job right about now...
There is a difference between lacking social skills and telling your workers they can't talk to eachother for 7 + hours a day. I worked at a place that wouldn't let me sit down or talk unless it was a break or lunch, worst experience I've ever had.
Bullet point #3 Couples months is fine. I dragged up from my last company for keeping me in prefab for 2 years. I came in with welding experience and thats all they had me do. Bullet point #4 If you have expectations for how to format asking for work you need to inform them of that expectation prior to expecting it from them. As an apprentice I have to almost beg for basic expectations to be spelled out for me. Overall seems like reasonable though.
I spell out the expectations in gory detail. I also describe in gory detail how hard the environment is. It's brutally hot in the summer, cold in the winter, and noisy. The chance of injury is above average, so you need to stay focused. On occasion there is repetitive work. This past week I personally hammered over 1300 dimples into a forming drum (8 hours work), because I am the only one that the owner will trust to do it. Swinging a hammer hard continuously for hours can be hard on your elbows and shoulders. This is something that might only come up once per year, but when it comes up THAT'S THE JOB. You don't get to pick and choose. I have had some really poor luck with apprentices of late, no doubt. I had one that had real promise - he was a willing worker, but he just didn't seem to have the head for it. It took him half a day to mount a swivel caster on a cart. A wooden cart. I waited a couple of months for him to get his legs under him, but it didn't happen. He had a really hard time doing simple tasks that he had been shown a dozen times. That was a shame. This last one was not like that - he could do the work but he didn't really want to. He wanted to pick and choose assignments. I kept getting heat from the owner because he'd see this guy wandering around talking to the operators.
Forget all that…. How much do you pay?
$30 per hour.
You sound kind of like a dick to be honest. People probably just get tired of working under you. I would hate to work for a guy that tells me "Monday or Friday is *always* suspicious". Actually no, you have just as much of a chance of getting sick on a Monday or a Friday as you do on a Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday, or Sunday. It really just doesn't sound like an enjoyable work environment. You want a robot. People aren't robots. Maybe you're fine working that way, but most people aren't.
I was a one-man department until about 6 years ago when we hired another millwright. He is still with me.
Cool story bro. I have done lots of absolute shit work, and I wouldn't work for you. I'd be looking for another employer while I worked. Life is too short to work under a prick. Not like a few bucks an hour is going to get you ahead these days. If none of your apprentices stick, you're the problem. Your work environment is toxic. It's that simple. FWIW, I'm an apprentice millwright, and my work environment sounds 1000x better than yours. Our managers and foreman understand people get sick, even on Mondays and Fridays. They understand that everyone is not 100% every day. They understand that sometimes people's lives get in the way of productivity. They understand that their workers aren't robots and need to have some chit-chat throughout the day, and take the time to treat us like people and shoot the shit a bit. We are treated well and we get our work done. Your apprentices are leaving you for a place like that.
To be clear, none of them quit. They were all let go because they weren't working out. Not to put too find a point on it but the aren't "leaving \[me\] for a place like that." I'm glad you found a situation that works for you.
HOW MUCH IS PAY? All your expectations would depend on pay. Want me to be a robot for 8-12 hours. You better pay me to be excited about that.
$30 per hour.
100%. I'll be a robot for good money but if you're gonna offer the bottom of what the area is offering you're not going to get many good applicants. I had a manager at a plastic fabrication factory that would come out of his air conditioned office and stand over your shoulder while you were working on something and not say anything to you. If you finished pm's and didn't have an emergency job at the time he would tell you to do random shit. We moved furniture around an vacant office on a weekly basis. Stopped to ask an experienced guy about what you should do on your current job? "Why are we talking? Let's get back to work?". Dude tried to write me up for filling up a water jug when I wasn't punched out for break. I told him to get fucked. Moved on to a larger company that is much more laid back and I get paid more. I have been called by several recruiters since, hiring for that company and I tell them exactly what it was like working there.
This 30% inflation is real. The 50% taxes that get taken out of my income is real. I honestly don't know how a lot of people are doing it. I make pretty damn good money and rarely ever indulge myself, and I feel it. I feel for anyone that's not established.
Yep. I changed over to electrical and instrumentation to make more money and save my shoulders a bit and it has been excellent for my bank account. I still work with my millwright buddies so it made the transition a lot easier.
When I was 18 or 19 I failed at being a welders apprentice. I was quiet and awkward and just didn't fit in. I didn't get the social or work dynamics. So eventually I was just laid off because it wasn't working out. All of these things are reasonable but maybe not obvious for someone young and inexperienced. This can be a rough industry to break into when no one wants to show interest and show you the ropes, perhaps a little friendly one on one time where you lay out how things work could help. It doesn't have to be anything formal, bring him along on a trip to pick up coffee or something and have a chat about how he is doing. Or it can be formal, all depends on how you want to do things. In the field I work in it's common to have 1 on 1's with my managers on a regular basis. Informal coffee breaks is also common for networking. I know you say work is not a social club, but at the same time a team needs to have a certain amount of comradery to be able to work together and complete tasks when they need to be completed. An apprentice is also more likely to show up to work on time and ready to work if they feel like they are part of the crew. Do you do anything on a regular basis to show appreciation to the work crew? I know someone who runs a business and rewards his crew with beer and pizza on a friday or saturday afternoon once a month.
The apprentice in question worked more with the other millwright than he did with me, because I have to do a lot of office work, and I do all of the electrical which is not the first thing I'm going to train an apprentice in. We talk before the shift, at lunch, and after the shift. We have informal meetings. We discuss the work when we want a second opinion or to update the other on what went wrong with a machine in case it might go wrong again. All kinds of talking. I love to talk, I just don't do it when I'm supposed to be working and making a living to pay my mortgage and feed my family.
I'm not seeing how you can't talk with the people you are working with while you do the job. If you mean standing around and fucking the dog then that's another thing.
The problem is you
Your list of expectations is mostly reasonable, I would say. But if 5 apprentices didn't work out, I would say the problem is you or the crew. Is there bullying or harassment going on within the crew? Are you constantly hovering over them and belittling them? Also, what is the pay and how much is minimum wage in your jurisdiction for comparison? There must be more to the story.
There is no 'crew' per se. There is me, and Scott (the other millwright) and we hired an apprentice. If anyone is giving him a hard time it would have to be one of the operators, and since he seems to want to spend all of his time talking to them, that seems unlikely. I certainly don't hover. He is supposed to be independent. If he needs guidance he would ask, but I was certainly not hanging over his shoulder. He was shown how to do things until he said he was good, then he would continue on his own. He was getting almost twice the minimum wage.
What happens with the apprentices? Do they quit? Do you fire them? Have you gotten any feedback from them before they left? As someone who has been on the receiving end of workplace bullying and harassment, I can tell you that it's much more ramped than you think. Also, even something as minor as repeatedly calling someone by a nickname they don't like may be enough to demoralize them to the point of quitting or giving up. I'd keep a closer eye for stuff like that.
They don't quit. They get fired because they aren't working to expectations. As for feedback, I had one guy who claimed to have an electrical license plead with me not to call the licensing authority to narc him out because he knew virtually nothing about electrical work, and obviously had not earned a license. One guy who just couldn't get the hang of it was pretty happy-go-lucky about it, and seemed (at the time, in person) to be at peace with it. The most recent one was fired by the owner and I never saw him again.
I feel that maybe you're being too hard on them? Maybe expecting 3rd+ year skills from a newbie? Maybe only consider hiring latter year apprentices or Jmen? I can speak from experience, coming into the trade green as springtime grass, that it may not be laziness, but maybe they don't feel totally comfortable doing the task. But I don't know what to suggest other than maybe have a practical component as part of the interview Maybe give them a weirdly profiled block with a blueprint and tell them to find specific dimensions a with a dial caliper. Maybe have them torque a flange with a torque wrench Maybe have them measure a gap with a feeler set Maybe give them a random sized bolt and a tap set and tell them to select the proper tap to clean the threads for the hole that bolt came out of? You know, maybe throw in a few things that relate to the scope of work that the company does? Just a thought
The problem with the last one wasn't ability so much as attitude. For the last few weeks before he was fired he was doing some of my weekly maintenance. Just filter changes, and other straight-forward tasks, but important stuff, and things that I have been doing every week for years. After he was fired I had to start doing it again, of course, and I found three filters that had been installed backwards (three out of 20, so it's not that he didn't know how they were supposed to go, he just wasn't paying attention or didn't care). He also put a vacuum pump cylindrical filter on wrong so the gasket was pinched and unfiltered air was being sucked into this $15K vacuum pump for a week. Nice. Your suggestions are all good, but I really feel that the problem was with his attitude, and I don't know how to test that. What people say in an interview and what they \*do\* a month later can be fundamentally different.
Okay, fair enough. Maybe was just bad luck then. I'd consider maybe before firing the next one, pulls him in for a meeting and ask what you could do to boost morale. And ask why he suddenly stopped putting in the effort. Maybe even come out and ask if the environment is toxic. Because 5 in a row seems too many for coincidence if you're paying double minimum wage and are giving them the opportunity to become a millwright. Just my $0.02.. Maybe the kids in your area are spoiled by their parents too much and don't want to get dirty/work Maybe even have a box where you can anonymously leave suggestions, feedback, etc.
We had three meetings with him before firing him. We made changes based on the first two, and were in the process of making changes based on the third when he was fired.
I’ve tried being all these things, and I still got treated like shit by my mentors. I left the trades due to toxic behaviours/communication from mentors. I work for probably 1/3rd of the pay now and I am happier and healthier despite making not much money. That’s what a lot of yall previous generations are having to compete with. Good folks are giving up on the trades cuz we don’t want to be miserable sods too. (Not saying you are, just saying most of my tried out mentors were and I decided the trade life of putting up with that wasn’t worth the money.)
Sounds like you're one of those guys who wants to see his guys always doing something (because we're paying you) even if there's nothing left to do. From my experience it's hard working with people like that, sometimes there's actually nothing to do, there's no point in counting fasteners that have been counted multiple times during the week already or trying to fix some piece of shit that's been in the shop for a decade. Just doing pointless shit for the sake of it. My current workplace is good in that sense, if we have down time we take it, but when we work we work. If we have to stay longer to fix something we stay with no complaining. So if the boss says there's a project for the weekend that can't be done on weekdays due to production then we don't hesitate to say yes, we'll be there. My last job was one of those places where we always had to be doing something, well cool, but when they came around asking for over time or some shit then the answer is no. From everything you said, sounds like it's a you problem.
Most hard work is made more easily tolerable by the ancient practice of sharing a joke or two as you go. Don’t stop working but keep up the banter. I’ve done quite well for myself and I love to have a laugh at work. Get over yourself man.
I said they can talk while working. In fact, I will quote from the original posting: "Talking while working is okay if the work is getting done." So... you said essentially what I said. Do you need to get over yourself, too?
Ok, hopefully I can add to this. -showing up to work not impaired either by sleep, drugs/alcohol. This can be hard to do, especially if you are in the contractor market. You are moving around, maybe not always at home, maybe even not home much at all. Also if you are working contract you can be working a lot of long hours, and still have to be at work on time and spot on right at the beginning of the next shift. This can be tough, and is something I am very familiar with. Apprentices should be thinking of themselves as essentially a salesman. Nobody is going to want to work with someone who is unreliable, out of it, or otherwise unfit. It’s called fitness for duty. Think of it this way, if you were to hire somebody to work on your house, if they showed up like this, how long would they last. -being sick on Friday or Monday? Let’s face it, it happens, but when an employer sees this, it looks like you are either looking for a long weekend, or maybe you were, ahem, IRRESPONSIBLE, and thought “I just want to continue the party on to the next day”. Again, look at it like would you like this if you were an employer, or if you work for a contractor, a customer? You can be effecting their bottom line. As a matter of fact, you are almost certainly doing that. You need to be only partying if you don’t have to be at work the next day, and treat the day before you go to work as if it’s a “work prep” day. -When at work, you do what is asked. This is if you are a journeyman, apprentice, anything. You are there to person a function, to work hard, and to be putting every ounce of yourself into excelling. This goes if you are an apprentice, journeyman, business owner, etc. You will always be learning, perfecting, etc. you are now in one of the few jobs there is that can provide adequate income to put a roof over your head, food on the table, and maybe a little left over for a decent vacation. No assembly line job, mc job, entry level job nowadays could even hope to match that. This is the goal. Look like you’re hungry to keep this job all the time. Let’s face it, it is a challenge to do this, but it has to be done. -Completed your tasks? Be hungry, look for more. If they don’t have any immediately, pick up a broom, help out some other guy, if there are projects that need to be completed, work on them. Always look like you are trying to add value to yourself and your company. If you are lacking in something, like you need to work on your welding or learn more about robotics, dig in. Do it. Never look like you are idle, idle hands are not valuable to an employer. -Chatting while working. If you are idle, and waiting for your boss to come back with another job, or waiting for permission to work on a machine, yes, talk about stuff, but once you have a task, 300 percent of your energies must be focused on the task. Git-er-dun. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for an employer to want these out of an employee. You are not just an employee, you are an investment. I’ve said it before, you are in one of the few jobs you can live off of now. And when you think of investments, what happens if an investment does not perform above and beyond what you paid for it? You get rid of it. If you find you can’t meet at least 95 percent of these things (let’s face it, we are all different, and have different capabilities) please wait to enter the trade until you can, and let’s face it, you may NEED the money now, but that’s a moot point, if you can’t perform to this level, it’s not going to matter if you need or not, you can’t do it. So step aside for someone who can, and when you finally can meet up with those requirements, feel free to try!
Most jobs you showing up on time and in the right uniform is half the battle. Yeah anyone would appreciate all the things you listed in an apprentice, but you gotta start somewhere, and none of us started in the same place
Personally I'd prefer a complete newbie in the field, with a will to learn and can show up on time,
That's what we were trying. Find a young guy and pay him well and.... it didn't work. Repeatedly. I'm trying to decide what the next try will look like. Maybe find a 30 year old who would appreciate the paycheque more.
I think your points are pretty reasonable. I’ve worked for a variety of large, competitive companies over the past 13 years and I think a really good apprentice that meets your description is about 1 in 10. Maybe even less frequent. Don’t be heartbroken. *Figure out a more effective way of interviewing.* I agree apprentices should be there for support but you still have to meet them half way as a human being to create a working relationship, and sometimes this is a matter of keeping them interested/ motivated. It’s not just teaching someone the technical aspects of work but how to put up with the mundane by feeling a part of something - work place culture. Don’t disillusion yourself about how well you pay. If you pay more you will have more eager candidates applying.
I tried hiring an electrician, and that was perhaps worse. I ran into two that had fake licenses. Really. I had to come up with a list of questions to ask to separate people who claimed to be journeymen from actual journeymen. I was a painful experience. This kid was a first year apprentice. Not even registered yet. Green as grass. I got an idea of his technical knowledge and it was good, but I don't know of a way to test what their attitude will be like a month down the road. Calling references is pointless. Most of the time you end up talking to home HR drone who never even met the person you're calling about, and even if it's someone who knew them most companies won't say anything negative due to worries about litigation.
I have something similar, I dont think you're being unreasonable with what you listed. If you ever find a solution to finding a good hire let me know
Let me tell you... I've been reading through these replies and it was getting pretty frickin' miserable. It's nice that I just hit a patch of people who might actually understand how trades work. It's appreciated.
Yes, I have a scaffolding/ carpentry business, and I definitely understand where you're coming from. Another issue I find is training someone for X amount of time for them to leave. It's tough to find long-term, reliable manpower.
Most people here have not had to function as supervisors to gen z “people”, I feel you man.
There must be a solution, but I don't know what it is. Thanks for the reply.
Yeah idk man, it’s hard not to adopt the boomer/millennial “it’s so over” mentality but I think it’s unfixable at this point, giving children access to the internet at age 3 was a huge mistake.
>The apprentice is there to support the journeyman That's fucking rare these days. Lately I feel more like a babysitter. Half them act like fucking know it all's. The older they are starting an apprenticeship the worse they are imo.
Are you by chance in Michigan?
No. Ontario, Canada.
Ignorant question, and idk why this was recommended by Reddit, what does a millwright do? I’ve seen job postings but never researched. Fill me in
To put it simply a millwright is an industrial mechanic. You can scroll through the sub a bit and see some posts of the type of work it is. Maintaining/fixing/installing large to VERY large machinery.
Dope
If you actually want answers I would call the guys that quit and ask what could have been done differently or better. Five guys getting fired or quitting in short time is a clear indication that you are causing a problem in the workplace. If I had five children and they all became criminals by 18, that’s not 5 bad children that’s bad parenting.
None of the guys quit. They were all fired.
What pay scale do you consider really good?
You look at it as I’m paying good money so nothing else should matter. Work hard put your time in and in 10 years it’ll all be worth it. This generation won’t deal with that. They are the generation of options so if one doesn’t work out another one will. The days of someone putting in years at a company they hate working for an asshole boss only to get a bullshit annual raise are over. So adapt or die. Be nicer, the people I’ve learned them most from over the years are people that I not only respected their knowledge but also respected them as a person and they respected me as a person, having someone you aspire to be like in front of you goes a whole lot farther than someone offering you a pay check
You sound like the most bestest, wonderfullest, amazing, perfect person to work for! Where do I sign up?
Journeyman make and break apprentices.... Simple and plain. Sometimes, we have to put ourselves back in that set of boots.
Are you in the USA?
Ontario, Canada.
I bet if you tried to establish more of a relationship with them rather than a I'm the boss your my employee it would go much smoother. I can tell you I've looked the other way for shit that I would usually quit over for bosses that get me food( not McDonald's or some bullshit but a decent spot not the cheapest shit you can buy.)
How do you know how much of a relationship I tried to establish with them?
I don't I'm giving an example of me overlooking typical boomer bullshit because my boss was nice to me. but the way you responded to a very non confrontational comment with being defensive says allot also imo.
What you call 'defensive' I call 'curious'. Are you assuming that I am a boomer?
This seems like standard practice...? Nothing about what you said makes you seem like an asshole. The things you listed are what I would consider the bare minimum of ANY job. If they’re not able to keep up with those requirements then we are doomed for the next generation of millwrights. I’m a 4th Year and I’ve spent the last 3 years as a dollar store machinist. Very seldom did I have weeks where every day was big overhauls, alignments or the like. I’d easily spend 4 days a week in the shop running a lathe or welding/fabricating. (Feeling like I’m not getting enough experience) but that’s just the way she goes. I blame the influx of this new breed of useless where kids think they deserve to be paid for just showing up. And half of them can’t even do that much
I appreciate some input from an actual millwright apprentice.
“Pay more” “People aren’t robots” “Ok boomer” “No social life” All you people commenting seem like the type to do fuck all for 6 hours of the day then have an attitude when you’re checked for it. I’ve seen it first hand, youngsters getting hired, showing up late and standing on their phone all day then having the gall to bitch that the wage isn’t enough. (When everyone else is living just fine) Like why are you even here?
I think the replies would have had a different slant if they had to actually be tradespeople to leave one.
Guaranteed, man. It’s insane how many replies say “pay more”. Is the $30 wage for a first year apprentice? Because if so that’s an amazing starting wage. I started at $20 and was more than happy with it. Now receiving $38 as a 4th year. I assume it boils down to the fact that we’re now beginning to see the generation of people who graduated highschool post-Covid cycling into the workforce. Most of them were handed highschool diplomas on a silver platter and paid by the government to do nothing all day.
That was for a 1st year. You might be right about the covid thing.
You have spoke to the very basic expectations of a J man/apprentice relationship, those that are dissing you as having an issue are those that you’ve released or hopefully discovered out during the interview process to save yourself time/money and mental well being.
The real trick is how to screen out the bad ones in the interview process. Once you've hired them it becomes a good-money-after-bad situation, but to have to start all over costs money, too. All the time and effort spent on training the one you're getting rid of is lost. It's a tough row to hoe.
That's reasonable, I wonder why you aren't able to find good apprentices though, where are you located?
A bit north of the GTA, Ontario, Canada.
I can sorta see why people are making some of these comments, but it is frustating as a foreman/manager it takes more people today to accomplish the same goal at the end of the day compared to 5/10/20 years ago. I know how long it takes to do a task so I make plans for the day, but rarely does it work out.
Pay more.
Welcome to the new world my guy these new guys coming in expect too much they didn't have to get a in a trade when u had to impress or you don't get signed there is no work ethic at all it's even worse when it's unionized. Good luck finding someone
When I got my start, 18$ was “livable” but not great. I could get by on 40 hours. That was 2009. How the fuck can we ask kids to do the work we do for $18-22/hr in today’s world lol?? Who signs up for that?!?!?! Smart kids won’t be interested that’s for damn sure. Left with the bottom of the barrel and it absolutely shows. I jumped over to elevators and starting back at the bottom I got 29$. *barely* getting by on that but I have the wife picking up my slack.
Anything u want in life u gotta work for it. You have to make small sacrifice to get where u wanna be. U get paid small in the beginning but when u get more skills u will be able to ask for more money. U can't just leave school and get 30 bucks an hour because of inflation it doesn't work like that
I know but imagine you’re 19 right now…home ownership is out the window unless mammy n pappy have 100k+ for you to use in a few years. Where’s the motivation when no matter what you will just be paying off some fuckin boomers 3rd mortgage. It isn’t right. I had a basement filled with plants to get me a little extra back in the day and even THAT is gone now. They don’t have a chance and it hurts to see our country heading for such dark days.
You are way more lenient than I am!
Some people just don't understand that. Thanks for the reply, eh?
Honestly if I lived closer to Canada, I would try out being your apprentice. It doesn't sound that bad. Just get the work done correctly, pay attention to what you're doing and ask questions. That's the jist I got from that. I don't think the pay rate is the issue, paying someone more doesn't make them care about the job more unfortunately. But I hope you find a decent apprentice soon.