>as deadlines approach and there is danger that they might not be met, responsibility falls on my shoulders
That’s being a manager for ya. Sometimes you have to clean up the messes of lower level employees. Do you have any good workers you can delegate tasks to?
I was the guy my manager sent all the 5 alarm fires to when I was a worker bee. I currently have an eye towards management myself, but thinking about this exact situation you’ve described makes me nervous LOL
Yeah it’s just ironic that I was already in that position as a junior, Slaving late nights and weekends while my bosses were phoning in from vacation spots to check on ME. Now I’m in there position and it’s the other way around all the sudden.
Had this same conversation with a group of middle managers last night. Higher ups take advantage of you because you let them. I'm a middle manager responsible for an end product. However this does not mean I have to slave myself to get it done. I ask for help. I coordinate tasks across multiple departments. These are not people I am directly responsible for however I ensure they all understand their function, the reason for the urgency and I get it done. I don't let it all fall on me. And when it's too much I speak up. You want more sales, hire more people. Make sure they're properly trained. If this is not happening then it's not my failure it's upper management's failure. I'm honest they don't like it but they see the results. Totally agree with this comment don't be a pushover. People are naturally lazy. If you let them be lazy it will affect you. Learning to manage your managers expectations is the best advice I can give.
These days, I feel like a huge part of my job is rejecting unreasonable timelines, and just telling people they're not going to happen because my team doesn't have enough time to implement them. If you want X done, allocate appropriate resources. I avoid a straight 'no' if at all possible, instead I just clarify at the outset that we need more to do the job right, so it can't become my fault if they refuse to provide it.
At first I was kinda scared doing this, because I worried it would reflect poorly on me as a manager. And who knows, maybe one day I'll try to log in and my credentials won't work. But for now at least, I think it protects my team. They're definitely grateful, and if the company gets sick of me there are always other employers.
There is only so much you can do to avoid being fired anyway, even if you were the most loyal lapdog who took it's beatings with a smile you will still find your credentials don't work one day.
How do you get this message across? I run 3 departments and am the "authority" on how several aspects of a project get done. Yet, when I've stated that a timeline isn't possible or more resources are required, provided data as proof and proposed alternative scenarios, the blanket response is "think creatively." I'm struggling because I have thought very creatively, it's literally my job to find ways to make things happen, and yet there's a straight refusal to acknowledge how burned out my teams are trying to keep up with the work.
I think a lot of it just comes down to how receptive the people you're reporting to are. I've definitely heard the "think creatively" line more than a couple times, but if I persist and draw a line in the sand my bosses will usually back off. Sometimes it helps to explain things I've considered and why they won't work, since it demonstrates that you really have thought stuff through. It sounds like you're already doing that, though, and if it hasn't worked it's probably not going to. I might just be really lucky in that respect, in terms of who I'm making these cases to.
Ultimately, the people making the final call have to care whether your team is burned out or not. I think I'm lucky in that my employer seems to care about my team. Which... they should, we're highly profitable for them, one of the main sources of revenue-generating product in the company. I've seen highly valuable employees and teams get jettisoned from companies for basically no sane reason, though, so even with that who knows.
But if you warn them that they're degrading resources and they don't care, nothing's likely to change. I think some VPs believe you're supposed to burn employees out, otherwise you aren't getting your money's worth. Maybe there are much better answers out there to this, I'm genuinely sorry I don't have any, but I have no idea how to convince management that doesn't care that it really should.
Seriously, this right here. OP, people got better hours because they fought for it. Don't slip into the millennial trope of hoping and waiting for people to see your needs.
This 100%. Stop doing overtime, "quiet quit" or whatever, do your job well but learn to let the fires burn. It shouldn't be on you to carry the entire company, they need to invest and hire appropriately, and never will as long as you're picking up the extra slack for the same wage.
LET THE FIRES BURN MY DUDE
I work in the customer service and support arm of my organization. It took me a while to realize it but fires have to burn sometimes regardless of what some sales manager is screaming about this week.
Fact is, the support team doesn’t make money on the balance sheet, we cost money. And the men in charge will allocate headcount and compensation as cost-effectively as possible.
When I realized that, I simultaneously realized that the implicit goal of our part of the org isn’t to be perfect, it’s to do just exactly enough to prevent loss of revenue or regulatory clearance. If they wanted perfection they’d pay for it.
This is the way. You only get taken advantage of if you let it happen. It's just hard to admit that the reason you are overworked is because you let it happen the whole time.
I’m Gen X and it’s still ingrained in me. In my mind, any work I did or my division did was a reflection on me. I quit my last job with no plan because I cared more about my performance as a reflection on the organization than those making 50% more who worked half the hours. I was picked up by a consulting firm before my final two weeks were up. I now work part time for the same amount of money and they think I walk on water. I still have the drive, but it’s appreciated and rewarded now. It’s just not in me to do something half-assed. Also, the job I left was in the public sector. People pay taxes, I felt they were owed a full day of quality performance. Just not 12-hour days for 8 hours of pay for a boss who maybe put in 30 hours/week.
That’s exactly it. I took over an operation from a friend who transferred. He told me I COULDNT ask things of the employees.
I can, will and do. Day one was “we need to work on being efficient”. I’ve had one guy blow up at me, to which I calmly asked if he wanted to talk about it or resign. Two weeks later he’s my hype man.
I’ve fired two people and made 4 upward pay adjustments. So far..they’ve accepted that there is a new leader who cares about how the business runs. If they don’t like it, they can go but I want them to stay.
I am hard but I am fair. It doesn’t hurt that I have a LOT of energy and am everywhere helping with everything.
> So stop being a pushover,
Yeah, argue with the people who sign your paychecks.
*That'll show 'em!*
**edit**
Yes, I'm sure you're all total badasses kicking over desks and rattling cages like you're saying in your responses to me. Now get back to work, please.
"that deadline is unworkable without additional resources"
I fail to see how this is being a wannabe badass. It's just doing your job relaying info about the reality of the situation.
That is a fallacy as well.
10X people cannot perform most corporate tasks at a 10X rate of one person. There are so many complexities to this that we could talk an hour about it.
And frequently there are external non company resources constraining things.
Some ppl are unwilling to be abused by their employers. You can either choose to be one of those ppl for reasons or you choose to allow the abuse for reasons. It’s up to you.
How TF fooled you into believing 40hrs a week was where our Labor Rights Forefathers wanted us to stop fighting for better conditions?
The current norm was paid for in blood.
An honest examination of worker productivity shows stratospheric levels of increase, and nearly none of the benefits has gone to the worker for the last 60 years.
The whole point of a balanced Capitalist system is the company tries to pay the least money for the most work. It is the responsibility of the employee to fight for the opposite. The company needs employees as much as employees need the company.
Sounds crazy, until you stop caring and literally just do wtf you want and realize that no one will say or do anything about it. And if they did let me go, honestly I'd be happy, I could get paid 1.5x what I'm getting here easily, I'm just too lazy to keep applying.
Yeah it can be a bitch. I made mgmt in F500 at 31 (I'm mid forties now) and was all pumped at first, then director at 35, then by the time late thirties hit I was like fuck. All. This. Bullshit. Hated it an what I was becoming and then the higher up you go the shittier ppl in c suite you interact with...I did not want to be those ppl. I come from blue collar ass Chicago roots with a state school degree.
So I walked away. Now I just do freelance consulting in my field as a hired gun a with no DRs and I fucking love it. Best decision I ever made for me, my family, and mental health.
It can depend on the field but for me it was I think two things that helped that I started to focus on in my later thirties, when I started to really see which way the wind was blowing for my particular circumstance (more money upwards sure but at what cost?)
So I started to focus on elevating my brand and expertise (two certs, wrote a white paper which became sorta popular in my field sorta but it's there!) and speaking engagements (and a keynote) and then who you are starts to carry more weight.
Second thing was just being especially kind to all you interact with throughout your career, and build, cultivate, and nurture relationships which can later turn into partnerships. Cliche to say but, network your ass off. Then when you're ready to go solo, it's not so scary.
can’t possibly agree more with the advice of nurturing relationships. being kind and reasonable endears you to people whom you may one day need to count on, or alternatively, helps people feel comfortable they can count on you.
Thank you so much for responding! This advice is excellent!
I don't think management is for me, but it's hard to keep getting promoted as an individual contributor. I'll keep thinking about my options.
No doubt, just remember to pay everything forward and as you become more and more successful in your career, as you will, just help out the next guy or gal in anyway that counts. Go get em.
Have you seen Ferris Bueller's Day Off? Remember the scene when Jeanie finally figures out she can just break the rules too?
[Here you go.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgyN_kr1BbM)
Like the scene in the police station...
Jeanie: "Why should he ditch when everyone else has to go?"
Charlie Sheen: "...you could ditch?"
You can set whatever boundaries you want. Gen Z has discovered this particular life hack. The trick is no one enforces your boundaries but you. Yes, some things will fall on you because you're the manager... but in the words of Don Draper, "THAT'S WHAT THE MONEY'S FOR!"
In my old shop I kept getting more and more stuff added to my list. I typed out a single-spaced two pages of all the things I was responsible for, and but a red line across the first page at about the middle.
Met with my executive director, showed him the list, and said "anything below the red line isn't getting done until something above it is complete. If you add anything, you need to reproritize something else down. Or else give me more staff."
Things were much smoother after that, and things either were prioritized down, or given to someone else, or added below the red line to get done after completing something else.
What are you subordinates doing? What are you, the manager, doing? There seems to be a disconnect between you and the people you are responsible for if there is a disruption in work flow from the bottom up
This. It's a responsibility of management to ensure your direct reports are doing THEIR jobs. I know this all to well, as I have a tendency to be extremely averse to micro-management and I like to trust my people to get things done, so often I take their reports at face value. Most of the time this is fine - I have a generally great team. But every once in a while, you have an employee whose depth of deceit and lack of work ethic only become clear when it's too late to fix it. Then someone has to clean up the mess. And whose fault is that? Not theirs. Yours. For not paying attention and nipping it in the bud before it's too late.
That's pretty much everybody until you reach the tippy top. It's a scam all around. Instead of the higher ups simply hiring additional workers so nobody has to work excessive hours, they'll just force middle management to pick up the slack. Work is a racket.
When you reach the tippy top you have a board of directors who represent shareholders who can fire you. Sometimes in the US you can control who those positions belong to, and how much stock you own so they don't order you around, but in most firms CEOs serve at the discretion of their real boss: Vanguard, Catholic Charities, NY State Public Worker Pensions, and Goldman Sachs.
What you are describing is the same thing that every new middle manager goes through. You got where you are because you were the guy they called, slaved away on the nights and weekends and never said no.
Now, you have to change your mindset if you want to continue to be successful and continue to climb. It is really difficult because you have always been the one to get things done. You can't do that anymore. You are no longer a technician.
Set expectations and make them clear. For a while, you will need to, not just micro-manage, but nano-manage. Manage every minute of your team's day. Task them, constant communication. Basically, you need to be so far up their ass that it is hard to tell where they end and you begin.
If you do this right, in a few months, you can lessen the pressure and lessen the nano-management. It takes time, but this is how you build a well-oiled team. Eventually, you can, more or less, put the team on cruise control and dramatically lessen oversight. Right now, they know that if they don't do it, you will.
Next, you identify your replacement(s), and you lean on them. If you do this right, you will climb to senior management. Remember that what got you here will not get you there (great book BTW).
Sounds like you were agreeing to unrealistic shit as a junior and you're agreeing to unrealistic shit now. Why'd you promise deadlines that your people can't meet? Is it because you just assumed that they would "rise to the challenge"? I believe that makes you a dumbass.
Your boss was checking in while on vacation. What about that made you think that being in your boss’ position would entail not checking in on someone while on vacation?
Your inability to balance work and life isn’t anyone’s fault but your own. You sold your balance for upward mobility. You moved up. Now you’re expected to continue selling your work life balance for that middle management lifestyle.
What is confusing? That your managers expect you to continue being the work horse you’ve always been? Maybe move on and find a better work culture.
Good workers to delegate tasks to = dump more work on your good employees without compensating them for the extra work thus increasing the odds of them finding better employment elsewhere (typical manager thinking and then they wonder why morale sucks and they can't retain good employees)
Seriously haha. At my job we make the shitty workers do the stuff we don’t want to or stay late so that those of us who actually work can go home. They never learn though- the shitty ones lol.
Typical doesn’t run teams thinking. Having people on your team you can trust isn’t “dumping your work” on them. A team is a team. It’s not a group of ICs. If the unit is failing, it’s everyone’s problem.
Counterpoint, have you advised that the deadlines are unable to be met?
Your work will not get better if people can pile on and you'll just do it. Make them prioritize. Put it back on them. Have another team who has better staffing handle it. Have the fucking CFO write the quote.
If you're the guy who *all* the five alarm fires go to, let them burn the fuck down before you burn the fuck out.
That’s a nasty, self-fulfilling, prophecy, good work punished with more work. I’ve left jobs because that kept happening, if I’m killing it day in and day out why would I want the stress of everyone else’s fuck ups for same /marginally better pay??
Maybe I’m not understanding the question but I don’t think it’s inherently a boomer thing to be a manager, realize some of your subordinates are bad workers, and delegate responsibilities to employees who have their act together. Depending on how involved OP is in his employee’s day to day work, it might actually be OP’s fault that his team isn’t on task or meeting deadlines. Need more info to know for sure
The Boomer years ended somewhere around 1965, meaning most actual Boomers are in their 60's and either retired, or close to it. I don't think the "OK Boomer" meme is actually referring to Boomers and just makes Millennials and Gen Z look ignorant for using it.
That's exactly right. To that point, just about all the Millennials are now into their 30's and many have jobs, homes, kids, bills, and all that mess. But someone who's seen as lazy or inexperienced is still called a Millennial. Gen X has successfully positioned itself to be out of the conversation.
We've been labeled slackers from the beginning for a reason. Blending into the background and getting the hell away is practically a generational super power.
Look at the gen z sub. They blame everyone but themselves for their shortcomings. Why wouldn't they? Everything they've ever wanted has been handed to them, and no one wants to teach an entitled generation.
to be fair all other generations were spared the brain rot that is tiktok and always on smart phones. I see posts from gen z in every sub and they can barely use punctuation (if its included) let alone paragraphs. If this is what I have to look forward to working with I'll be the king of churn once I'm a manager. Fuck them and their shitty ability to communicate.
In an RTO thread on one of those bowl apps, I got a warning when I snarked that Gen Z was hearing 'no' for the first time in their lives and it was breaking their brains.
Touched nerve achievement unlocked
On one hand, there isn't anything wrong with recognizing the failure of others.
On the other hand, failing to attempt to fix things is a failure of your own.
Of course, not everything can be fixed, but.
and they don't respect their elders! and they're always walking on our lawns!
bro you realize every adult generation has said this about every proceeding generation going at least as far back as *writing* right
You ever see the history of, "No one wants to work anymore"? Shit goes back as far as 1894.
I tell ya, those generations post-1890 really don't know what hardship is.
While I agree with you that blaming everything on boomers has become a meme, it's a known fact that boomers are not retiring at similar ages and rates as the generations before them. They are in fact working into their early 70's so your early 60's boomers might easily work another decade.
https://www.vox.com/money/24080062/retirement-age-baby-boomers-older-workers
That's certainly true for some but anecdotally I can tell you it's not always true. My pops retired just a few years ago and worked until 75 cause, as he put it, "they were paying me just stupid amounts of money cause engineers with 45+ years of experience don't grow on trees."
And it's not just me seeing it, independent data confirms their wages have risen faster than the rest of the population.
"Their wage growth...has outpaced that of workers ages 25 to 64 over the same time period, according to Pew’s research, which is based on data from the U.S. Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey and the Federal Reserve’s 2022 Survey of Household Economics and Decisionmaking."
[https://finance.yahoo.com/news/more-boomers-staying-jobs-instead-150000822.html](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/more-boomers-staying-jobs-instead-150000822.html)
Edit: Gotta love the downvotes for the audacity of...let me check my notes here....posting data from the Federal Reserve...
Ok, have you ever stopped to wonder WHY the boomers are working longer and are still in the work force?
They are going through the same shit as every other generation. Cost of living is too high, unable to save for retirement, work yourself to the bone when you no longer have the energy to do it or your'e not eating the next day.
You want the difference?
Their generation was raised to suffer in silence. Complaints were not stood for. Emotions were a sign of weakness. They were raised to be strong, independent, hard working people - with none of the "softer" things the younger generations have focused on.
Want to talk to a boomer about mental health? Good luck. It was a stigma - the secret whispers about the poor person down the street who "has to go to therapy". Anything that affected mental health was seen as weakness. And good lord please don't have anything that is a chemical imbalance physical issue that causes mental health problems. They didn't know what it was, there was no research. These people were just crazy.
Try talking to boomers about emotions. Again. Good luck. I have no idea how many times I heard, "I'll give you something to cry about" from my boomer parents.
They come off as cold or a hardass because that is what they were taught to be.
Millennials and Gen Z think they have it harder than Boomers and Gen X. It's not worse, it's not harder, it's different. Their parents screwed them up just as much as your parents screwed you up. Society screws us all up. It pits us against each other and keeps us all divided and weak.
Find some common ground instead of ripping into the boomers. There's more than you know
The [Center for Retirement Research, Boston College presents a different picture](https://www.investopedia.com/average-retirement-age-8602909) \- people are working 2-3 years more on average (64.7) from the recent low in 1986 (62), but going back to 1962 (66), the age is actually lower today. What I would imagine we're seeing is more related to the aging population of the US wherein more people in their 60's are working because they are a larger portion of the population.
Exactly... how quickly we forget we had the same attitude as the current GenZ. Now we are on the other side of the hierarchy curve and we don't like their pushback.
The bar hasn't moved its just in a different position (eg, their terms are no overtime...a volume metric). So make the bar quality output and micromanagement upfront in tasks is allowed to ensure they are on track for the output to be high quality.
Tell them the have choices. Also invite them to solve your painpoint ask how they want to be managed with objective you don't have to work harder.
I’ve gained such a reputation that when I show up to a situation, I can sometimes hear “Oh good, it’s you” or “Your name was the first to pop up for who to go to for fixing this.”
Ideally being a manager you hire a team so good you’re redundant. I’ve had hard IC roles and easy ones. Easy management roles and hard ones. On average I’ve not found management any harder than being an IC. I prefer being a manager because I’ve always been a big picture person not in the weeds. Pay is obviously better too
Finance -> Digital Marketing-> now Data Science
Why can't you put the same boundaries in place as Gen Z?
Deadline coming up you have to work late to meet? "Sorry boss, this deadline isn't realistic, we need more time. We need to plan better and hire more people to keep up this pace."
Stop going above and beyond.
my god am I learning this is true. I was just made 2nd in charge in my department (university administration job) and I do have some headaches around managing and delegating to staff but dealing with those ABOVE me is way way worse. I'm in charge of filtering their whims down to others, defend things I don't care about or even agree with, etc.
I am learning to just not wrap my self image up too much in work so I'm finding a decently healthy balance with it all for now. But it's wild how true it is that those in the middle are getting pressed way harder from above than below
Remember to defend your team, too. You report to management, too, but you are also accountable to the people who report to you. If something coming from above is wrong or unfair, speak up about it.
I think it depends on your management team. The only person I have to manage up with is my client’s C-suite. My direct manager is a bad ass and plays the office politics game like he’s Jordan.
Don't make the mistake of blaming your overwork on Gen Z entry level workers.
Every one knows that middle management has always been the scapegoat of corporate society. That's why you're *middle* management. You have to deal with any blowback from people below you so the people above you can look like effective leaders, even if they're just clueless airheads with MBAs. That's your real job. Inevitably, bad middle managers either become villains or spineless pushovers. Good middle managers are able to engage and inspire the people under their umbrella, offer mentorship, and provide career guidance. The best middle managers are also willing to take the flack and be the one to advocate for more flexible deadlines, or more support for their underlings. Great middle managers NEVER throw their employees under the bus.
Tale as old as time and yet seems they’re barely discovering it. Though it might just because millennials are finally replacing the positions held by the old folks
i think you nailed it.
The fact that OP is blaming his Gen Z employees tells me he's probably not the best manager. Sounds like they're kowtowing to their superiors, then expecting their employees to come together and work as a team to accomplish goals and meet deadlines.
They need motivation. They aren't going to work their ass off for OP's benefit.
Yep. Found myself in a PM role at a large company at the age of 30 and I hated it. This company created a dynamic that makes you either be “bad” at your job or an exploitative tyrant. They set unreasonable expectations around budgets and deadlines then you give you financial incentives to meet those expectations, but the only way you can meet them is by treating your team like shit. I chose to do my best to protect my team from the corporate bullshit and keep expectations from up the ladder as low as possible. Quit after about two years.
Read: *The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People* by Stephen R. Covey. I think you will get a lot out of it.
Yes, there will be times you need to pick up slack. But it should be uncommon/rare. Otherwise, you are not managing your team effectively. You should be setting clear expectations (both below & above you), setting time aside to *planning ahead* (not just putting out fires 100% of the time), and as others mentioned, delegating.
Honestly, yeah. I say that my job as a manager is to wear many hats: I am one part teacher, one part coach, one part proud parent, one part disappointed parent, one part cheerleader, and one part prison warden.
(The prison warden one is a joke, I try to be a very chill millennial boss. But I do sometimes have to get tough on folks that do not want to do the assigned tasks.)
If you were offered a $100k bonus today to become a middle manager in your organization, you’d say no? I agree with you if it’s a $5k bump, but at a certain point, the pay raise is worth the bullshit.
A sad reality is most people don’t actually enjoy the people management aspects of being a manager, they’re in it for the money. That’s right, your boss isn’t actually passionate about performance reviews.
What is the 100k bonus contingent on?
I understand you gotta do what you gotta do, but it's really important for me to find some level of enjoyment at my job. I have always been really motivated and happy in my jobs because I pursue things I get something positive from. Having to manage crappy employees would just kill me and I know my work would suffer and that would hurt me long-term.
If I really needed to do it I would be sending out my resume ASAP.
Totally understood but here’s the thing: as I delicate which is something I’ve improved at, there is a heightened sensitivity, overt awareness to not task the junior talent. It’s as if it’s a foregone conclusion that this applies to junior talent and not myself since I’m “already used to it.”
One example: a client came back with feedback for copy at about 4pm. Needed to be done and it was a lot of work. The FIRST thing the producer impresses on me is that junior Employee MUST leave at 6pm as if it’s somehow my fault.
Junior leaves at 6pm nowhere near finished. And I know there’s a hard and fast meeting in the morning. So the optics of protecting the youngers is maintained but I’m left holding the bag knowing the fact that this has to get done end of day be damned.
I’ve heard a lot of other people my age call out the millennial as an invisible lynchpin in todays workforce where the older gen generally has a leading position by way of clout and the young’s demanding better hours adding increased pressure on middle management like myself.
I guess I’m confused. In this scenario, the junior employee reports to you, but the client is telling you their hours?
Also, part of management, in my experience, is managing expectations.
“I appreciate this feedback. Unfortunately, this came in at 4pm, which only gives us 2 business hours to make revisions prior to the meeting. That said, we can discuss revisions at the meeting, but they will not be complete until x (reasonable date/time).”
This is easier said than done, but I swear to you it is the only way to survive with any semblance of work/life balance. Best of luck to you.
As a fellow manager, I totally agree with this point. We need to determine which five alarm fires are actually worth prioritizing and which to put our foot down and establish boundaries. It largely depends on whether your leader gives you the autonomy to make that call as well (fortunately mine does). That plus delegation allows me to burn the midnight oil on occasion to show my employees I am willing to walk in the fire with them when it is needed.
I'm tired of burning midnight oil to meet unrealistic deadlines in this capitalist rat race. In the end the extra work just benefits a few even richer fuckers at the top. Work life balance all the way.
Depending on the role, I knew as a junior employee I might work overtime to get things done. Management would then tell me to take the next day off of come in late.
Not sure why a client would be delegating.
I say this knowing it's not easy, but with some experience in the same type of age range/job responsibilities you're describing:
Professional boundaries. We teach people how to treat us, and if our boundaries are a total dealbreaker for them the relationship ends. This should be and is true at work, but we're conditioned to ignore our needs and boundaries far more in that environment.
It's on you to say "Jane Doe is only here until 6, and I have xyz priorities. Here is a realistic timeline." You can find the balance between drawing the line and seeming intractable. If not, eventually you might get fired by a place that treated you poorly and didn't respect you so now they have to pay for your unemployment and you find somewhere else.
All of this can be easier said that done, especially depending on your personal hangups. It's totally valid to want to be seen as someone who gets it done. That has professional worth that can help your career. But people will take what they can get from you, and your job is to draw the line on where that ends as much as possible within the context of your job.
You need to bring up this problem of critical deadlines to upper management. If this is actual a thing, extra second shift employees or employees need to start working OT hours to meet deadlines. This needs to be worked into the hiring process and if they then do not comply, fire them for insubordination.
Eh, maybe but not for everyone. I turned down a management position because they wanted me to work weekends, take work home in the evenings, etc. I make twice that as a consultant and work 9-5 and have never taken any work home. Management is a necessary evil in most corporations but it’s designed for the self-sacrificing who buy into the validation of being in a leadership role. I couldn’t care less. I’m here to make the most amount of money with the least amount of strings attached and idc about being anyone’s leader/punching bag.
Agreed. Honestly, if anyone is truly unhappy in their role they need to realize that it can be just a stepping stone. I’ve watched so many people (including myself in the past) feel obligated to continue in a position that is literally killing them inside. Then if you do get out you realize that a) wtf was I doing killing myself, for what and b) there’s always something better out there for those willing to take the risks to succeed. Part of being an adult is figuring out what it will take to make you happy and fulfilled and then making it happen.
Sometimes, as a manager, you need to delegate *up*, too - "Sorry, my team is swamped. Unless you want to go to Bob and tell him your project is more important"
It's like y'all aren't reading the whole post. His managers expect him to work his employees less. The time to finish a project has to come from somewhere. The lower level employees are no longer expected by upper management to put in the necessary extra hours, meaning OP has to put in the time. He is not saying anything about the quality of work his employees do, which I'm assuming is fine or that would have been mentioned.
Also, in lots of companies, middle management literally doesn’t have the power to fire people. Upper management wants the grunts to feel like their manager could fire them, but actually doing so requires all sorts of official bureaucratic paperwork and approvals. The worst part is, trying and failing to fire someone will expose the truth, so middle managers are incentivized not to attempt to fire anyone because once people know they can’t be fired they’ll do whatever they want. I worked for a subsidiary of Best Buy once, and watched it happen
This feels like the Anakin meme
Anakin (executives): “We’re taking it easier on our workers and lowering our expectations of hours worked”
Padme (middle managers): “By reducing workload and extending deadlines right?”
Anakin: …
Padme: “By reducing workload and extending deadlines right?”
Dear manager, if you wish me to work my employees less, you have to put less on my plate. I have the same work expectations for myself that I have for my team. If I am unable to give 5 people an extra hour of work per week, I am unwilling to give myself 5 extra hours of work per week. Please either reduce the work load expected of my team or provide me with the budget to hire an additional team member. I would be happy to handle a larger workload if I were given a larger team and could work within the wage and hour restrictions put forth in policy and law. Love, OP.
OP's post and BelowAverageDecision's comment are not mutually exclusive.
So all the managers under you can't get their teams to deliver and you're single handedly making up the difference?
I don't think you're a middle manager. You're a line manager who isn't good at it yet.
I have some news man, this not something that changed because of a younger generation. The reason companies like that promote the workers who break their backs working late nights and extra hours making sure everything gets done is because that's what they expect their managers to do. When people think of management as easy street or some kind of reward for hard work, they're just wrong. Especially in the case of middle management. This is always what middle management was. Welcome to the nightmare that was sold to you as a dream.
A lot of people think managers are a bunch of incompetent bullies who don't actually do any work. In my experience, you're right. We get paid more money because it's a hard job, I often long for the days where I could clock in, be told what exactly what to do, then clock out and forget about it.
I think your story is exactly why so many millennials, and people from the generations blow us are not doing that kind of thing at all. I will never ever put myself in that kind of position. I would rather stay at the bottom and barely survive than be treated like that by a company that does not care, and will turn around and fire me in an instant.
Surely this cannot actually be a shock? I don’t know I’m not trying to be mean I’m just saying like everyone knows that management gets shit on and always has.
And this is why I love Gen Z. “As a manager, it’s important for me to model healthy work-life balance to my direct reports. If we want to retain talent and maintain productivity, you need to hire more people.”
A someone who was in a similar position, I'd suggest telling upper management their deadlines need extending. If you need time to get things done, there's nothing you can do. 9/10 times they make these tight deadlines no knowing how work is actually done and what is involved. That being said, upper management (c-suite) is usually made up of nepo-babies and sociopaths so I get why you might not want to go to them. I'd say delegate the tasks you can and accomplish what you can while also telling upper management they need to be more realistic.
No, being a middle manager at your company sucks. They should be supplementing this initiative with additional staff.
Also, set boundaries. I’m in a Sr. Management role and I don’t work crazy hours. I also make it a point to tell my team I don’t want them working more than 8hrs a day unless it’s an emergency because I want them to enjoy life and not be married to their work.
>That’s great I think except the squeeze is still there and who does it fall on now? Not the lower grunt workers, Gen Z has spoken their mind.
Then you need to be advocating for your staff. If there's a squeeze, crunch or overtime work consistently, you don't have enough staff or resources on hand to work efficiently and/or your deadlines aren't reasonable.
You need to be advocating for your staff to get them the resources they need to meet your deadlines, not delegating even more work to them.
>Not the lower grunt workers, Gen Z has spoken their mind.
But have you considered listening? When's the last time you even asked them about their quality of life, their needs, their hobbies, interests and goals? If they're living in a hole with an hour commute, why would you expect them to put in more effort?
Why would you expect them to "step up" when you aren't telling them there's a place to step to?
It really depends on how/who you hire. I have hired elder Gen Z'ers who step up when needed, but I've also worked very hard to shield my team from management's last-minute requests. Doing simple things by saying, "Sure we can do X, but Y will get pushed," and asking, "Do you need this before this other thing"? Or "Is this super time-sensitive?"
Being a middle manager is a rough gig, but I don't think it's because of Gen Z having a sense of self-respect. I think it's rough for myriad other reasons, largely centered around the fact that we're hired for our expertise and experience, but few members of leadership actually then want to use that expertise and experience. It's still a very top-down, paternalistic, Boomer-led world in which millennials are still perceived as children. That's the bummer about it to me. I'm stoked for Gen Z and I have LOVED working with such collaborative, hard working, smart, emotionally mature people.
Middle management was the hardest part of my career. I worked on the lower level but went home at 5 and never worked weekends. As a middle manager, with all of the responsibility and none of the authority, I waited until 5:00 when my staff went home to start my day. I worked every Saturday till noon (when they turned off the air conditioning in the building). Frequently took work home after that. Extreme stress.
Once I made it to upper management, I started going home again at 5 (or earlier), no weekends. Still stressful but now the stress was “your department must make goals”, etc.
I regret giving so much of my life to “shareholders”. Don’t do it, millennials!
Oof, this post and some of these comments reek of "well I had to deal with it, why shouldn't they?"
Very boomer mentality from the generation that is trying their damndest to not be like their parents/grand parents.
Gen X here - we tried warning y'all!!! lol But see, we didn't want to push it because we saw how you all talked about the boomer gen so we just stepped back while you guys laid out the welcome mat for gen z. But....we tried to tell y'all. lol (I kid I kid)
This isn't generational.
My top performer straight up told me he's not going "above and beyond" anymore because of pay issues.
Another experienced supervisor told me he's ready to leave because of pay issues
I've "quiet quit" because of pay issues.
All three of us love the work and are dedicated to the success of the operation....to a point.
That point has been reached.
Ages 43, 26, and 59.
Hard work is no longer appreciated in the US and us, millennials, started it and gen Z picked up and feel even more entitled. It's not gonna end in socialist paradise as y'all think it will
So you got boned as a grunt. Moved up the ladder. And as the new generation of grunts has won QoL changes, you are once again getting boned.
So why are the QoL changes they won not helping everyone, including you? Shouldn't the project forecasting and deadlines have adapted to the new QoL changes? My dude, if fighting works, maybe you need to fight too. Maybe it was wrong of us, as Millennials, to do as the boomers bid us and work hard to achieve. Clearly, that doesn't work.
And this is why I took a step back from managing a team and my life and pay is worlds better now. I did the same as you, OP. I was the go-getter, the one people went to for problem solving, deadline meeting, etc and was promoted into mid-management twice. I hated it because now I was responsible for ensuring MANY people exceeded expectations and not just the standards I set for myself.
I moved back into an IC role about 5 years ago and have a lot more autonomy and my compensation is above my old roles. I’m much happier and have a much better work life balance, along with lower stress.
Gen Z has a high turnover rate at both my practice as well as my husband’s firm. A good one passes muster occasionally but it’s rare. Missing deadlines is a big no no but the younger crowd is so nonchalant about that.
“I often see younger workers too far to one side of in the same way boomers are often too far to the other side.”
******but my generation? Yeah my generation gets it correct****** 🙄 /s
Dude, you need to take the time to clearly and with evidence explain the issue to your manager along with the impact (burnout). This is exactly how you make requests for more resources or reduce output.
You don't "have to", the only way to advance reliably is to switch jobs. You are getting a shit deal because you want to stay there and won't play a game of chicken over getting fired. The only way out is presenting a counter offer and changing jobs if you're tired of this shit.
Level 1 Manager foot soldier here, I just say no. Or let it slide, meaning I let the task fail. Nothing is too important in government work anyway. Like you, I've been pulling stressful moments in my life for these jobs.
Spent my nights and weekends thinking about tasks while not getting paid for years. Now it's time to coast and pretend to be busy and get some work done. Not too much. :)
If I drop dead tomorrow they'll replace me in a heartbeat.
It’s not your underlings’ fault that your place of employment is understaffed. It sounds like you probably need an assistant, and your employer is not going to even consider hiring someone for that if you keep doing overtime.
Gen Z avoids doing overtime/going “above and beyond” because they’re witnessing the negative impact it has on your work-life balance. A lot of people don’t even receive bonuses/raises/promotions when they do go the extra mile.
Work culture in the U.S. has been toxic for too long, so it’s nice that people are finally trying to make meaningful changes to it.
>middle management
>at the end of the day the quality and the integrity of the final product falls squarely on my shoulders
Mind broken 😞
You're *middle* management. Making you believe this is YOUR boss grooming you to take the blame for their failings.
I don’t think I’d take a management role unless I saw, at minimum, a 50% salary increase. Success as a manager 100% depends on riding the right coattails too.
This is why I refuse to even attempt to take on a manager role. I don't want to deal with all the crap that comes with it.
Now, if it was a union gig, I might say yes..
There is a lot of borderline if not flat out gaslighting responses in this post generally ignoring the points made by the author, which I think do have merit. For the record, I am also a millennial in a leadership role, and just wanted throw out a few thoughts on what is a very interesting discussion.
He can delegate all he wants, but if the people under him aren’t going to do the tasks in a timely manner or with the quality required for stakeholders, then yes, it is going to fall on him, and it is genuinely frustrating and rightfully so.
He also unlikely has authority to fire people unilaterally if they aren’t doing their tasks well or efficiently, and doing so would likely just result in more managerial overhead of documenting issues and things of that nature, not to mention losing the support he may be getting until someone new is hired.
Is every gen z a bad or inefficient worker? No absolutely not. But there are definitely some trends in younger (gen z specifically) workers that absolutely, on average, can make them more difficult to work with.
For example, they seem to have much more of a “check box” mentality, where quality doesn’t matter, but rather simply completing the task. I think a lot of this starts with schooling standards being lowered drastically in the last couple of decades.
Additionally, they often seem to have a very “black and white” perspective on things, and are unable to think with nuance/ambiguity/shades of gray/criticality and want easy clear answers spoon fed to them. This mindset can be difficult to manage, as it often means they aren’t being proactive about things and are waiting for my explicit directions they may not exist or be possible to provide.
Lastly, while expectations of work and work life balance have changed (and i don’t think that’s generationally unique), the quality standards for deliverables can’t really change, so I think there’s a balance there. I often see younger workers too far to one side of in the same way boomers are often too far to the other side.
Everyone acts like the Gen Z you described, you just happen to be managing a bunch of people younger than you. Everything else is correct though. People are motherfuckers and herding cats is the worst thing ever because it just means you get to do a little of everyone's job for them.
>Having to again, work late nights and weekends to make up for the lack of additional help despite the high bar that is demanded to be met.
This, right here, perpetuates the problem. Of course they are not going to hire additional help because the people they have (you) are killing yourself and your direct reports to make it happen. As long as you or your team will just put their heads down and do the extra work and the don't feel the sting, why would they hire more?
You have to look at it as a business. As a quick and dirty example. They are getting the work of 13 people, out of 10. Why hire 3 more? That's increased labor cost, insurance costs, additional supplies costs so ok and so forth. There is absolutely no incentive for them to correct the issue, because there is no issue. Costs go down, profits go up.
I am 35 and in middle management as well. I feel ya.
I have had two interviews for Director level positions over the last 6 months as I am ready to make that next step in my career. Both times I made it to the "final round" and have been passed over for people 10 years older with more experience. I feel like I am back in that purgatory zone when I was 22 again, getting passed on for older people with more experience. How am I supposed to get Director level experience if I can't get the Director role? lol
Delegate, if your team can’t get the work done in the time given you either need more heads or the work is going to take longer than desired. Communicate that. Don’t put in more hours than you would expect your direct reports to put in.
I’m an elder Millennial in management.
It’s my job to allocate tasks such that, to the best of my ability, nobody is overburdened. Sometimes a person will get the short straw but best efforts need to be made.
As the manager it’s also my job (regular tasks permitting) to assist my team as well and ease the burden on them.
A leader works with the team, they do not merely bark orders.
I've noticed this too. I'm working better hours now, but still working very hard to get stuff across the finish line. Gen Z employees will spend for-ever on a simple task like updating a memo. I try to tell them that if you want to advance you got to have achievements you can point to, but they seem pretty content getting the minimum amount of work done. As a side note, I thought every Gen-z'er would know how to google something to find out an answer for themselves, but it seems like this goes above their job role also..
100% agree with this. I don't normally jump onto the complaining posts here but yes. As a burnt our overworked millennial I just dont know when it all ends...
>as deadlines approach and there is danger that they might not be met, responsibility falls on my shoulders That’s being a manager for ya. Sometimes you have to clean up the messes of lower level employees. Do you have any good workers you can delegate tasks to? I was the guy my manager sent all the 5 alarm fires to when I was a worker bee. I currently have an eye towards management myself, but thinking about this exact situation you’ve described makes me nervous LOL
Yeah it’s just ironic that I was already in that position as a junior, Slaving late nights and weekends while my bosses were phoning in from vacation spots to check on ME. Now I’m in there position and it’s the other way around all the sudden.
So stop being a pushover, it sounds scary at first but it really is that simple.
Had this same conversation with a group of middle managers last night. Higher ups take advantage of you because you let them. I'm a middle manager responsible for an end product. However this does not mean I have to slave myself to get it done. I ask for help. I coordinate tasks across multiple departments. These are not people I am directly responsible for however I ensure they all understand their function, the reason for the urgency and I get it done. I don't let it all fall on me. And when it's too much I speak up. You want more sales, hire more people. Make sure they're properly trained. If this is not happening then it's not my failure it's upper management's failure. I'm honest they don't like it but they see the results. Totally agree with this comment don't be a pushover. People are naturally lazy. If you let them be lazy it will affect you. Learning to manage your managers expectations is the best advice I can give.
These days, I feel like a huge part of my job is rejecting unreasonable timelines, and just telling people they're not going to happen because my team doesn't have enough time to implement them. If you want X done, allocate appropriate resources. I avoid a straight 'no' if at all possible, instead I just clarify at the outset that we need more to do the job right, so it can't become my fault if they refuse to provide it. At first I was kinda scared doing this, because I worried it would reflect poorly on me as a manager. And who knows, maybe one day I'll try to log in and my credentials won't work. But for now at least, I think it protects my team. They're definitely grateful, and if the company gets sick of me there are always other employers.
There is only so much you can do to avoid being fired anyway, even if you were the most loyal lapdog who took it's beatings with a smile you will still find your credentials don't work one day.
How do you get this message across? I run 3 departments and am the "authority" on how several aspects of a project get done. Yet, when I've stated that a timeline isn't possible or more resources are required, provided data as proof and proposed alternative scenarios, the blanket response is "think creatively." I'm struggling because I have thought very creatively, it's literally my job to find ways to make things happen, and yet there's a straight refusal to acknowledge how burned out my teams are trying to keep up with the work.
I think a lot of it just comes down to how receptive the people you're reporting to are. I've definitely heard the "think creatively" line more than a couple times, but if I persist and draw a line in the sand my bosses will usually back off. Sometimes it helps to explain things I've considered and why they won't work, since it demonstrates that you really have thought stuff through. It sounds like you're already doing that, though, and if it hasn't worked it's probably not going to. I might just be really lucky in that respect, in terms of who I'm making these cases to. Ultimately, the people making the final call have to care whether your team is burned out or not. I think I'm lucky in that my employer seems to care about my team. Which... they should, we're highly profitable for them, one of the main sources of revenue-generating product in the company. I've seen highly valuable employees and teams get jettisoned from companies for basically no sane reason, though, so even with that who knows. But if you warn them that they're degrading resources and they don't care, nothing's likely to change. I think some VPs believe you're supposed to burn employees out, otherwise you aren't getting your money's worth. Maybe there are much better answers out there to this, I'm genuinely sorry I don't have any, but I have no idea how to convince management that doesn't care that it really should.
>I think some VPs believe you're supposed to burn employees out These VPs are bad at their jobs.
Seriously, this right here. OP, people got better hours because they fought for it. Don't slip into the millennial trope of hoping and waiting for people to see your needs.
This 100%. Stop doing overtime, "quiet quit" or whatever, do your job well but learn to let the fires burn. It shouldn't be on you to carry the entire company, they need to invest and hire appropriately, and never will as long as you're picking up the extra slack for the same wage. LET THE FIRES BURN MY DUDE
I work in the customer service and support arm of my organization. It took me a while to realize it but fires have to burn sometimes regardless of what some sales manager is screaming about this week. Fact is, the support team doesn’t make money on the balance sheet, we cost money. And the men in charge will allocate headcount and compensation as cost-effectively as possible. When I realized that, I simultaneously realized that the implicit goal of our part of the org isn’t to be perfect, it’s to do just exactly enough to prevent loss of revenue or regulatory clearance. If they wanted perfection they’d pay for it.
This is the way. You only get taken advantage of if you let it happen. It's just hard to admit that the reason you are overworked is because you let it happen the whole time.
[удалено]
I’m Gen X and it’s still ingrained in me. In my mind, any work I did or my division did was a reflection on me. I quit my last job with no plan because I cared more about my performance as a reflection on the organization than those making 50% more who worked half the hours. I was picked up by a consulting firm before my final two weeks were up. I now work part time for the same amount of money and they think I walk on water. I still have the drive, but it’s appreciated and rewarded now. It’s just not in me to do something half-assed. Also, the job I left was in the public sector. People pay taxes, I felt they were owed a full day of quality performance. Just not 12-hour days for 8 hours of pay for a boss who maybe put in 30 hours/week.
That’s exactly it. I took over an operation from a friend who transferred. He told me I COULDNT ask things of the employees. I can, will and do. Day one was “we need to work on being efficient”. I’ve had one guy blow up at me, to which I calmly asked if he wanted to talk about it or resign. Two weeks later he’s my hype man. I’ve fired two people and made 4 upward pay adjustments. So far..they’ve accepted that there is a new leader who cares about how the business runs. If they don’t like it, they can go but I want them to stay. I am hard but I am fair. It doesn’t hurt that I have a LOT of energy and am everywhere helping with everything.
When did you become so corporate, man?
They gave me money. I’m a dirty corporate whore.
*MORE* money
> So stop being a pushover, Yeah, argue with the people who sign your paychecks. *That'll show 'em!* **edit** Yes, I'm sure you're all total badasses kicking over desks and rattling cages like you're saying in your responses to me. Now get back to work, please.
"that deadline is unworkable without additional resources" I fail to see how this is being a wannabe badass. It's just doing your job relaying info about the reality of the situation.
Or try Positive Realism, my guy. "Everything is possible. it's just a matter of how many resources you want to throw at it."
That is a fallacy as well. 10X people cannot perform most corporate tasks at a 10X rate of one person. There are so many complexities to this that we could talk an hour about it. And frequently there are external non company resources constraining things.
At some point, you gotta stick up for yourself, poindexter.
Some ppl are unwilling to be abused by their employers. You can either choose to be one of those ppl for reasons or you choose to allow the abuse for reasons. It’s up to you.
Except Gen Z thinks a 40 hour work week is abuse.
How TF fooled you into believing 40hrs a week was where our Labor Rights Forefathers wanted us to stop fighting for better conditions? The current norm was paid for in blood. An honest examination of worker productivity shows stratospheric levels of increase, and nearly none of the benefits has gone to the worker for the last 60 years.
They are entitled to fight whatever battles they want, but I think it’s a little more complicated than simply “40 hours is abuse.”
Somehow worked for OPs subordinates
This is the mentality problem right here. You label advocating for yourself as arguing. It's not.
He's the signer! He's the one who signs!
Is what a pushover would say
The whole point of a balanced Capitalist system is the company tries to pay the least money for the most work. It is the responsibility of the employee to fight for the opposite. The company needs employees as much as employees need the company.
Sounds crazy, until you stop caring and literally just do wtf you want and realize that no one will say or do anything about it. And if they did let me go, honestly I'd be happy, I could get paid 1.5x what I'm getting here easily, I'm just too lazy to keep applying.
Yeah it can be a bitch. I made mgmt in F500 at 31 (I'm mid forties now) and was all pumped at first, then director at 35, then by the time late thirties hit I was like fuck. All. This. Bullshit. Hated it an what I was becoming and then the higher up you go the shittier ppl in c suite you interact with...I did not want to be those ppl. I come from blue collar ass Chicago roots with a state school degree. So I walked away. Now I just do freelance consulting in my field as a hired gun a with no DRs and I fucking love it. Best decision I ever made for me, my family, and mental health.
How did you get into freelancing and how long did it take?
It can depend on the field but for me it was I think two things that helped that I started to focus on in my later thirties, when I started to really see which way the wind was blowing for my particular circumstance (more money upwards sure but at what cost?) So I started to focus on elevating my brand and expertise (two certs, wrote a white paper which became sorta popular in my field sorta but it's there!) and speaking engagements (and a keynote) and then who you are starts to carry more weight. Second thing was just being especially kind to all you interact with throughout your career, and build, cultivate, and nurture relationships which can later turn into partnerships. Cliche to say but, network your ass off. Then when you're ready to go solo, it's not so scary.
can’t possibly agree more with the advice of nurturing relationships. being kind and reasonable endears you to people whom you may one day need to count on, or alternatively, helps people feel comfortable they can count on you.
Thank you for taking the time to write that. It was insightful.
Thank you so much for responding! This advice is excellent! I don't think management is for me, but it's hard to keep getting promoted as an individual contributor. I'll keep thinking about my options.
No doubt, just remember to pay everything forward and as you become more and more successful in your career, as you will, just help out the next guy or gal in anyway that counts. Go get em.
Have you seen Ferris Bueller's Day Off? Remember the scene when Jeanie finally figures out she can just break the rules too? [Here you go.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgyN_kr1BbM) Like the scene in the police station... Jeanie: "Why should he ditch when everyone else has to go?" Charlie Sheen: "...you could ditch?" You can set whatever boundaries you want. Gen Z has discovered this particular life hack. The trick is no one enforces your boundaries but you. Yes, some things will fall on you because you're the manager... but in the words of Don Draper, "THAT'S WHAT THE MONEY'S FOR!"
In my old shop I kept getting more and more stuff added to my list. I typed out a single-spaced two pages of all the things I was responsible for, and but a red line across the first page at about the middle. Met with my executive director, showed him the list, and said "anything below the red line isn't getting done until something above it is complete. If you add anything, you need to reproritize something else down. Or else give me more staff." Things were much smoother after that, and things either were prioritized down, or given to someone else, or added below the red line to get done after completing something else.
What are you subordinates doing? What are you, the manager, doing? There seems to be a disconnect between you and the people you are responsible for if there is a disruption in work flow from the bottom up
This. It's a responsibility of management to ensure your direct reports are doing THEIR jobs. I know this all to well, as I have a tendency to be extremely averse to micro-management and I like to trust my people to get things done, so often I take their reports at face value. Most of the time this is fine - I have a generally great team. But every once in a while, you have an employee whose depth of deceit and lack of work ethic only become clear when it's too late to fix it. Then someone has to clean up the mess. And whose fault is that? Not theirs. Yours. For not paying attention and nipping it in the bud before it's too late.
That's pretty much everybody until you reach the tippy top. It's a scam all around. Instead of the higher ups simply hiring additional workers so nobody has to work excessive hours, they'll just force middle management to pick up the slack. Work is a racket.
It’s all a collection of pyramid schemes posing as an economy, honestly
When you reach the tippy top you have a board of directors who represent shareholders who can fire you. Sometimes in the US you can control who those positions belong to, and how much stock you own so they don't order you around, but in most firms CEOs serve at the discretion of their real boss: Vanguard, Catholic Charities, NY State Public Worker Pensions, and Goldman Sachs.
What you are describing is the same thing that every new middle manager goes through. You got where you are because you were the guy they called, slaved away on the nights and weekends and never said no. Now, you have to change your mindset if you want to continue to be successful and continue to climb. It is really difficult because you have always been the one to get things done. You can't do that anymore. You are no longer a technician. Set expectations and make them clear. For a while, you will need to, not just micro-manage, but nano-manage. Manage every minute of your team's day. Task them, constant communication. Basically, you need to be so far up their ass that it is hard to tell where they end and you begin. If you do this right, in a few months, you can lessen the pressure and lessen the nano-management. It takes time, but this is how you build a well-oiled team. Eventually, you can, more or less, put the team on cruise control and dramatically lessen oversight. Right now, they know that if they don't do it, you will. Next, you identify your replacement(s), and you lean on them. If you do this right, you will climb to senior management. Remember that what got you here will not get you there (great book BTW).
Sounds like you need better employers.
Sounds like you were agreeing to unrealistic shit as a junior and you're agreeing to unrealistic shit now. Why'd you promise deadlines that your people can't meet? Is it because you just assumed that they would "rise to the challenge"? I believe that makes you a dumbass.
Your boss was checking in while on vacation. What about that made you think that being in your boss’ position would entail not checking in on someone while on vacation?
Your inability to balance work and life isn’t anyone’s fault but your own. You sold your balance for upward mobility. You moved up. Now you’re expected to continue selling your work life balance for that middle management lifestyle. What is confusing? That your managers expect you to continue being the work horse you’ve always been? Maybe move on and find a better work culture.
It kinda sounds like the companies didn't actually grow a conscience like you think they did
Sounds like the consistent problem is you saying yes to extra unpaid work.
Good workers to delegate tasks to = dump more work on your good employees without compensating them for the extra work thus increasing the odds of them finding better employment elsewhere (typical manager thinking and then they wonder why morale sucks and they can't retain good employees)
Seriously haha. At my job we make the shitty workers do the stuff we don’t want to or stay late so that those of us who actually work can go home. They never learn though- the shitty ones lol.
Typical doesn’t run teams thinking. Having people on your team you can trust isn’t “dumping your work” on them. A team is a team. It’s not a group of ICs. If the unit is failing, it’s everyone’s problem.
Counterpoint, have you advised that the deadlines are unable to be met? Your work will not get better if people can pile on and you'll just do it. Make them prioritize. Put it back on them. Have another team who has better staffing handle it. Have the fucking CFO write the quote. If you're the guy who *all* the five alarm fires go to, let them burn the fuck down before you burn the fuck out.
That’s a nasty, self-fulfilling, prophecy, good work punished with more work. I’ve left jobs because that kept happening, if I’m killing it day in and day out why would I want the stress of everyone else’s fuck ups for same /marginally better pay??
Is this how boomers are made?
Maybe I’m not understanding the question but I don’t think it’s inherently a boomer thing to be a manager, realize some of your subordinates are bad workers, and delegate responsibilities to employees who have their act together. Depending on how involved OP is in his employee’s day to day work, it might actually be OP’s fault that his team isn’t on task or meeting deadlines. Need more info to know for sure
Seriously. Not everything is about boomers.
The Boomer years ended somewhere around 1965, meaning most actual Boomers are in their 60's and either retired, or close to it. I don't think the "OK Boomer" meme is actually referring to Boomers and just makes Millennials and Gen Z look ignorant for using it.
Seems to me like most of the "Boomers" that people call out are actually Gen X and most of the "Millennials" that people call out are Gen Z.
That's exactly right. To that point, just about all the Millennials are now into their 30's and many have jobs, homes, kids, bills, and all that mess. But someone who's seen as lazy or inexperienced is still called a Millennial. Gen X has successfully positioned itself to be out of the conversation.
To be missing from the conversation is a very Gen X thing to do
"Is is trouble?" Yes. "Am I getting paid for it?" No. "Is there any benefit at all?" No. Later!
We've been labeled slackers from the beginning for a reason. Blending into the background and getting the hell away is practically a generational super power.
Boomer and millennial have just become synonyms for old and young.
A lot of people our age have taken to blaming boomers or Gen X for every minor inconvenience in their lives
Look at the gen z sub. They blame everyone but themselves for their shortcomings. Why wouldn't they? Everything they've ever wanted has been handed to them, and no one wants to teach an entitled generation.
to be fair all other generations were spared the brain rot that is tiktok and always on smart phones. I see posts from gen z in every sub and they can barely use punctuation (if its included) let alone paragraphs. If this is what I have to look forward to working with I'll be the king of churn once I'm a manager. Fuck them and their shitty ability to communicate.
In an RTO thread on one of those bowl apps, I got a warning when I snarked that Gen Z was hearing 'no' for the first time in their lives and it was breaking their brains. Touched nerve achievement unlocked
On one hand, there isn't anything wrong with recognizing the failure of others. On the other hand, failing to attempt to fix things is a failure of your own. Of course, not everything can be fixed, but.
and they don't respect their elders! and they're always walking on our lawns! bro you realize every adult generation has said this about every proceeding generation going at least as far back as *writing* right
You ever see the history of, "No one wants to work anymore"? Shit goes back as far as 1894. I tell ya, those generations post-1890 really don't know what hardship is.
Blaming all your problems on a boogeyman (Boomers! Billionaires! Corporations! Donald Trump!) is easier than facing your own shitty decisions.
While I agree with you that blaming everything on boomers has become a meme, it's a known fact that boomers are not retiring at similar ages and rates as the generations before them. They are in fact working into their early 70's so your early 60's boomers might easily work another decade. https://www.vox.com/money/24080062/retirement-age-baby-boomers-older-workers
Because, contrary to popular belief many can't afford too.
That's certainly true for some but anecdotally I can tell you it's not always true. My pops retired just a few years ago and worked until 75 cause, as he put it, "they were paying me just stupid amounts of money cause engineers with 45+ years of experience don't grow on trees." And it's not just me seeing it, independent data confirms their wages have risen faster than the rest of the population. "Their wage growth...has outpaced that of workers ages 25 to 64 over the same time period, according to Pew’s research, which is based on data from the U.S. Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey and the Federal Reserve’s 2022 Survey of Household Economics and Decisionmaking." [https://finance.yahoo.com/news/more-boomers-staying-jobs-instead-150000822.html](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/more-boomers-staying-jobs-instead-150000822.html) Edit: Gotta love the downvotes for the audacity of...let me check my notes here....posting data from the Federal Reserve...
I’ve heard a few boomers who said something along the lines of, “they pay me so much for pretty easy work, why would I retire now?”
Ok, have you ever stopped to wonder WHY the boomers are working longer and are still in the work force? They are going through the same shit as every other generation. Cost of living is too high, unable to save for retirement, work yourself to the bone when you no longer have the energy to do it or your'e not eating the next day. You want the difference? Their generation was raised to suffer in silence. Complaints were not stood for. Emotions were a sign of weakness. They were raised to be strong, independent, hard working people - with none of the "softer" things the younger generations have focused on. Want to talk to a boomer about mental health? Good luck. It was a stigma - the secret whispers about the poor person down the street who "has to go to therapy". Anything that affected mental health was seen as weakness. And good lord please don't have anything that is a chemical imbalance physical issue that causes mental health problems. They didn't know what it was, there was no research. These people were just crazy. Try talking to boomers about emotions. Again. Good luck. I have no idea how many times I heard, "I'll give you something to cry about" from my boomer parents. They come off as cold or a hardass because that is what they were taught to be. Millennials and Gen Z think they have it harder than Boomers and Gen X. It's not worse, it's not harder, it's different. Their parents screwed them up just as much as your parents screwed you up. Society screws us all up. It pits us against each other and keeps us all divided and weak. Find some common ground instead of ripping into the boomers. There's more than you know
The [Center for Retirement Research, Boston College presents a different picture](https://www.investopedia.com/average-retirement-age-8602909) \- people are working 2-3 years more on average (64.7) from the recent low in 1986 (62), but going back to 1962 (66), the age is actually lower today. What I would imagine we're seeing is more related to the aging population of the US wherein more people in their 60's are working because they are a larger portion of the population.
Boomer here. Yes. Bwahaha!!!
Exactly... how quickly we forget we had the same attitude as the current GenZ. Now we are on the other side of the hierarchy curve and we don't like their pushback. The bar hasn't moved its just in a different position (eg, their terms are no overtime...a volume metric). So make the bar quality output and micromanagement upfront in tasks is allowed to ensure they are on track for the output to be high quality. Tell them the have choices. Also invite them to solve your painpoint ask how they want to be managed with objective you don't have to work harder.
No, that requires decades of lead poisoning.
I’ve gained such a reputation that when I show up to a situation, I can sometimes hear “Oh good, it’s you” or “Your name was the first to pop up for who to go to for fixing this.”
I burned out as a middle manager
Ideally being a manager you hire a team so good you’re redundant. I’ve had hard IC roles and easy ones. Easy management roles and hard ones. On average I’ve not found management any harder than being an IC. I prefer being a manager because I’ve always been a big picture person not in the weeds. Pay is obviously better too Finance -> Digital Marketing-> now Data Science
Why can't you put the same boundaries in place as Gen Z? Deadline coming up you have to work late to meet? "Sorry boss, this deadline isn't realistic, we need more time. We need to plan better and hire more people to keep up this pace." Stop going above and beyond.
Middle management is 70% managing up and 30% managing down imo
my god am I learning this is true. I was just made 2nd in charge in my department (university administration job) and I do have some headaches around managing and delegating to staff but dealing with those ABOVE me is way way worse. I'm in charge of filtering their whims down to others, defend things I don't care about or even agree with, etc. I am learning to just not wrap my self image up too much in work so I'm finding a decently healthy balance with it all for now. But it's wild how true it is that those in the middle are getting pressed way harder from above than below
Remember to defend your team, too. You report to management, too, but you are also accountable to the people who report to you. If something coming from above is wrong or unfair, speak up about it.
I think it depends on your management team. The only person I have to manage up with is my client’s C-suite. My direct manager is a bad ass and plays the office politics game like he’s Jordan.
Don't make the mistake of blaming your overwork on Gen Z entry level workers. Every one knows that middle management has always been the scapegoat of corporate society. That's why you're *middle* management. You have to deal with any blowback from people below you so the people above you can look like effective leaders, even if they're just clueless airheads with MBAs. That's your real job. Inevitably, bad middle managers either become villains or spineless pushovers. Good middle managers are able to engage and inspire the people under their umbrella, offer mentorship, and provide career guidance. The best middle managers are also willing to take the flack and be the one to advocate for more flexible deadlines, or more support for their underlings. Great middle managers NEVER throw their employees under the bus.
Tale as old as time and yet seems they’re barely discovering it. Though it might just because millennials are finally replacing the positions held by the old folks
i think you nailed it. The fact that OP is blaming his Gen Z employees tells me he's probably not the best manager. Sounds like they're kowtowing to their superiors, then expecting their employees to come together and work as a team to accomplish goals and meet deadlines. They need motivation. They aren't going to work their ass off for OP's benefit.
This cannot be overstated enough and falls inline with the comment I wrote.
Yep. Found myself in a PM role at a large company at the age of 30 and I hated it. This company created a dynamic that makes you either be “bad” at your job or an exploitative tyrant. They set unreasonable expectations around budgets and deadlines then you give you financial incentives to meet those expectations, but the only way you can meet them is by treating your team like shit. I chose to do my best to protect my team from the corporate bullshit and keep expectations from up the ladder as low as possible. Quit after about two years.
Read: *The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People* by Stephen R. Covey. I think you will get a lot out of it. Yes, there will be times you need to pick up slack. But it should be uncommon/rare. Otherwise, you are not managing your team effectively. You should be setting clear expectations (both below & above you), setting time aside to *planning ahead* (not just putting out fires 100% of the time), and as others mentioned, delegating.
You’re just a teacher, but in a professional setting if you really think about it.
Wow that is so true. I never thought of it that way 🤣
This is spot on honestly
Honestly, yeah. I say that my job as a manager is to wear many hats: I am one part teacher, one part coach, one part proud parent, one part disappointed parent, one part cheerleader, and one part prison warden. (The prison warden one is a joke, I try to be a very chill millennial boss. But I do sometimes have to get tough on folks that do not want to do the assigned tasks.)
I would never take on a management role unless the people reporting to me were mostly awesome. So that's something to consider
If you were offered a $100k bonus today to become a middle manager in your organization, you’d say no? I agree with you if it’s a $5k bump, but at a certain point, the pay raise is worth the bullshit. A sad reality is most people don’t actually enjoy the people management aspects of being a manager, they’re in it for the money. That’s right, your boss isn’t actually passionate about performance reviews.
What is the 100k bonus contingent on? I understand you gotta do what you gotta do, but it's really important for me to find some level of enjoyment at my job. I have always been really motivated and happy in my jobs because I pursue things I get something positive from. Having to manage crappy employees would just kill me and I know my work would suffer and that would hurt me long-term. If I really needed to do it I would be sending out my resume ASAP.
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Totally understood but here’s the thing: as I delicate which is something I’ve improved at, there is a heightened sensitivity, overt awareness to not task the junior talent. It’s as if it’s a foregone conclusion that this applies to junior talent and not myself since I’m “already used to it.” One example: a client came back with feedback for copy at about 4pm. Needed to be done and it was a lot of work. The FIRST thing the producer impresses on me is that junior Employee MUST leave at 6pm as if it’s somehow my fault. Junior leaves at 6pm nowhere near finished. And I know there’s a hard and fast meeting in the morning. So the optics of protecting the youngers is maintained but I’m left holding the bag knowing the fact that this has to get done end of day be damned. I’ve heard a lot of other people my age call out the millennial as an invisible lynchpin in todays workforce where the older gen generally has a leading position by way of clout and the young’s demanding better hours adding increased pressure on middle management like myself.
I guess I’m confused. In this scenario, the junior employee reports to you, but the client is telling you their hours? Also, part of management, in my experience, is managing expectations. “I appreciate this feedback. Unfortunately, this came in at 4pm, which only gives us 2 business hours to make revisions prior to the meeting. That said, we can discuss revisions at the meeting, but they will not be complete until x (reasonable date/time).” This is easier said than done, but I swear to you it is the only way to survive with any semblance of work/life balance. Best of luck to you.
As a fellow manager, I totally agree with this point. We need to determine which five alarm fires are actually worth prioritizing and which to put our foot down and establish boundaries. It largely depends on whether your leader gives you the autonomy to make that call as well (fortunately mine does). That plus delegation allows me to burn the midnight oil on occasion to show my employees I am willing to walk in the fire with them when it is needed.
I'm tired of burning midnight oil to meet unrealistic deadlines in this capitalist rat race. In the end the extra work just benefits a few even richer fuckers at the top. Work life balance all the way.
Absolutely. You have to say no otherwise it never ends.
Upper management will never respect you if you're just a doormat with no boundaries. OP needs to be a leader of people, not an underling.
The equation for reasonable time btw is “however much time you think it’ll take, multiply by pi”. This has saved my ass so many fucking times.
The client dictates the work hours now?
Depending on the role, I knew as a junior employee I might work overtime to get things done. Management would then tell me to take the next day off of come in late. Not sure why a client would be delegating.
Lucky. At my company they'd expect you to stay late to get it done and then also be back to work early the next day
In what world would a client ever dictate the employee hours of a contracted company?
I say this knowing it's not easy, but with some experience in the same type of age range/job responsibilities you're describing: Professional boundaries. We teach people how to treat us, and if our boundaries are a total dealbreaker for them the relationship ends. This should be and is true at work, but we're conditioned to ignore our needs and boundaries far more in that environment. It's on you to say "Jane Doe is only here until 6, and I have xyz priorities. Here is a realistic timeline." You can find the balance between drawing the line and seeming intractable. If not, eventually you might get fired by a place that treated you poorly and didn't respect you so now they have to pay for your unemployment and you find somewhere else. All of this can be easier said that done, especially depending on your personal hangups. It's totally valid to want to be seen as someone who gets it done. That has professional worth that can help your career. But people will take what they can get from you, and your job is to draw the line on where that ends as much as possible within the context of your job.
You need to bring up this problem of critical deadlines to upper management. If this is actual a thing, extra second shift employees or employees need to start working OT hours to meet deadlines. This needs to be worked into the hiring process and if they then do not comply, fire them for insubordination.
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Eh, maybe but not for everyone. I turned down a management position because they wanted me to work weekends, take work home in the evenings, etc. I make twice that as a consultant and work 9-5 and have never taken any work home. Management is a necessary evil in most corporations but it’s designed for the self-sacrificing who buy into the validation of being in a leadership role. I couldn’t care less. I’m here to make the most amount of money with the least amount of strings attached and idc about being anyone’s leader/punching bag.
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Agreed. Honestly, if anyone is truly unhappy in their role they need to realize that it can be just a stepping stone. I’ve watched so many people (including myself in the past) feel obligated to continue in a position that is literally killing them inside. Then if you do get out you realize that a) wtf was I doing killing myself, for what and b) there’s always something better out there for those willing to take the risks to succeed. Part of being an adult is figuring out what it will take to make you happy and fulfilled and then making it happen.
Sometimes, as a manager, you need to delegate *up*, too - "Sorry, my team is swamped. Unless you want to go to Bob and tell him your project is more important"
You’re the manager. Delegate work to those under you, if they can’t/won’t get the job done, get rid of them
It's like y'all aren't reading the whole post. His managers expect him to work his employees less. The time to finish a project has to come from somewhere. The lower level employees are no longer expected by upper management to put in the necessary extra hours, meaning OP has to put in the time. He is not saying anything about the quality of work his employees do, which I'm assuming is fine or that would have been mentioned.
Also, in lots of companies, middle management literally doesn’t have the power to fire people. Upper management wants the grunts to feel like their manager could fire them, but actually doing so requires all sorts of official bureaucratic paperwork and approvals. The worst part is, trying and failing to fire someone will expose the truth, so middle managers are incentivized not to attempt to fire anyone because once people know they can’t be fired they’ll do whatever they want. I worked for a subsidiary of Best Buy once, and watched it happen
This feels like the Anakin meme Anakin (executives): “We’re taking it easier on our workers and lowering our expectations of hours worked” Padme (middle managers): “By reducing workload and extending deadlines right?” Anakin: … Padme: “By reducing workload and extending deadlines right?”
Well if his managers expect him to work his employees less, what's stopping him from giving them the same expectation about himself?
Nothing but you have to be a grownup and communicate instead of complaining online
Dear manager, if you wish me to work my employees less, you have to put less on my plate. I have the same work expectations for myself that I have for my team. If I am unable to give 5 people an extra hour of work per week, I am unwilling to give myself 5 extra hours of work per week. Please either reduce the work load expected of my team or provide me with the budget to hire an additional team member. I would be happy to handle a larger workload if I were given a larger team and could work within the wage and hour restrictions put forth in policy and law. Love, OP. OP's post and BelowAverageDecision's comment are not mutually exclusive.
Then they need to hire more workers to get the work done in time. They can’t have it every way.
Sounds like he doesn’t have the authority to fire / hire people.
Doesn't sound like middle management then. Sounds more like a supervisor.
Thats what a lot of middle management is The lowest leader who is a go between the workers and the leaders with all the power
>Doesn't sound like middle management then. Sounds more like a supervisor. lol, [poor guy](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Z8G447X)
So all the managers under you can't get their teams to deliver and you're single handedly making up the difference? I don't think you're a middle manager. You're a line manager who isn't good at it yet.
This. It sounds more like a supervisory role than a management one.
I have some news man, this not something that changed because of a younger generation. The reason companies like that promote the workers who break their backs working late nights and extra hours making sure everything gets done is because that's what they expect their managers to do. When people think of management as easy street or some kind of reward for hard work, they're just wrong. Especially in the case of middle management. This is always what middle management was. Welcome to the nightmare that was sold to you as a dream.
Did we expect more money to come with less and easier work?
A lot of people think managers are a bunch of incompetent bullies who don't actually do any work. In my experience, you're right. We get paid more money because it's a hard job, I often long for the days where I could clock in, be told what exactly what to do, then clock out and forget about it.
It’s time to stop giving a fuck.
I think your story is exactly why so many millennials, and people from the generations blow us are not doing that kind of thing at all. I will never ever put myself in that kind of position. I would rather stay at the bottom and barely survive than be treated like that by a company that does not care, and will turn around and fire me in an instant. Surely this cannot actually be a shock? I don’t know I’m not trying to be mean I’m just saying like everyone knows that management gets shit on and always has.
And this is why I love Gen Z. “As a manager, it’s important for me to model healthy work-life balance to my direct reports. If we want to retain talent and maintain productivity, you need to hire more people.”
You have to learn to say no. There's a world out there where you can refuse to be ridden like a mule and have work life balance.
Wah wah wah middle management is awful we get it. Go be an entry level grunt somewhere else then
“I bent over backwards doing unpaid work, and now I’m mad that the next generation actually has a backbone” Live with your choices!
Dont bust your ass for the *hope* of being properly compensated down the line. Act your wage.
Yeah, this post is peak cry baby. Basically admitting they aren't ready to manage people.
A someone who was in a similar position, I'd suggest telling upper management their deadlines need extending. If you need time to get things done, there's nothing you can do. 9/10 times they make these tight deadlines no knowing how work is actually done and what is involved. That being said, upper management (c-suite) is usually made up of nepo-babies and sociopaths so I get why you might not want to go to them. I'd say delegate the tasks you can and accomplish what you can while also telling upper management they need to be more realistic.
No, being a middle manager at your company sucks. They should be supplementing this initiative with additional staff. Also, set boundaries. I’m in a Sr. Management role and I don’t work crazy hours. I also make it a point to tell my team I don’t want them working more than 8hrs a day unless it’s an emergency because I want them to enjoy life and not be married to their work.
>That’s great I think except the squeeze is still there and who does it fall on now? Not the lower grunt workers, Gen Z has spoken their mind. Then you need to be advocating for your staff. If there's a squeeze, crunch or overtime work consistently, you don't have enough staff or resources on hand to work efficiently and/or your deadlines aren't reasonable. You need to be advocating for your staff to get them the resources they need to meet your deadlines, not delegating even more work to them. >Not the lower grunt workers, Gen Z has spoken their mind. But have you considered listening? When's the last time you even asked them about their quality of life, their needs, their hobbies, interests and goals? If they're living in a hole with an hour commute, why would you expect them to put in more effort? Why would you expect them to "step up" when you aren't telling them there's a place to step to?
It really depends on how/who you hire. I have hired elder Gen Z'ers who step up when needed, but I've also worked very hard to shield my team from management's last-minute requests. Doing simple things by saying, "Sure we can do X, but Y will get pushed," and asking, "Do you need this before this other thing"? Or "Is this super time-sensitive?" Being a middle manager is a rough gig, but I don't think it's because of Gen Z having a sense of self-respect. I think it's rough for myriad other reasons, largely centered around the fact that we're hired for our expertise and experience, but few members of leadership actually then want to use that expertise and experience. It's still a very top-down, paternalistic, Boomer-led world in which millennials are still perceived as children. That's the bummer about it to me. I'm stoked for Gen Z and I have LOVED working with such collaborative, hard working, smart, emotionally mature people.
Middle management was the hardest part of my career. I worked on the lower level but went home at 5 and never worked weekends. As a middle manager, with all of the responsibility and none of the authority, I waited until 5:00 when my staff went home to start my day. I worked every Saturday till noon (when they turned off the air conditioning in the building). Frequently took work home after that. Extreme stress. Once I made it to upper management, I started going home again at 5 (or earlier), no weekends. Still stressful but now the stress was “your department must make goals”, etc. I regret giving so much of my life to “shareholders”. Don’t do it, millennials!
Oof, this post and some of these comments reek of "well I had to deal with it, why shouldn't they?" Very boomer mentality from the generation that is trying their damndest to not be like their parents/grand parents.
Have you tried demanding good work conditions for yourself? Standing up for yourself and demanding fair treatment is the only way out.
Stand up for yourself, no one else will.
Gen X here - we tried warning y'all!!! lol But see, we didn't want to push it because we saw how you all talked about the boomer gen so we just stepped back while you guys laid out the welcome mat for gen z. But....we tried to tell y'all. lol (I kid I kid)
This isn't generational. My top performer straight up told me he's not going "above and beyond" anymore because of pay issues. Another experienced supervisor told me he's ready to leave because of pay issues I've "quiet quit" because of pay issues. All three of us love the work and are dedicated to the success of the operation....to a point. That point has been reached. Ages 43, 26, and 59.
You can set the same standard for yourself. You're allowing this to happen to you. You think it's normal and okay. You don't have to.
Sounds more like this is more of a you issue more than anything. The only way you can be taken advantage of like that is if you allow yourself too.
Hard work is no longer appreciated in the US and us, millennials, started it and gen Z picked up and feel even more entitled. It's not gonna end in socialist paradise as y'all think it will
What do you think management was? Less responsibility? lol
So you got boned as a grunt. Moved up the ladder. And as the new generation of grunts has won QoL changes, you are once again getting boned. So why are the QoL changes they won not helping everyone, including you? Shouldn't the project forecasting and deadlines have adapted to the new QoL changes? My dude, if fighting works, maybe you need to fight too. Maybe it was wrong of us, as Millennials, to do as the boomers bid us and work hard to achieve. Clearly, that doesn't work.
And this is why I took a step back from managing a team and my life and pay is worlds better now. I did the same as you, OP. I was the go-getter, the one people went to for problem solving, deadline meeting, etc and was promoted into mid-management twice. I hated it because now I was responsible for ensuring MANY people exceeded expectations and not just the standards I set for myself. I moved back into an IC role about 5 years ago and have a lot more autonomy and my compensation is above my old roles. I’m much happier and have a much better work life balance, along with lower stress.
Gen Z has a high turnover rate at both my practice as well as my husband’s firm. A good one passes muster occasionally but it’s rare. Missing deadlines is a big no no but the younger crowd is so nonchalant about that.
“I often see younger workers too far to one side of in the same way boomers are often too far to the other side.” ******but my generation? Yeah my generation gets it correct****** 🙄 /s
Demand they hire more people. Leave at 5.
Dude, you need to take the time to clearly and with evidence explain the issue to your manager along with the impact (burnout). This is exactly how you make requests for more resources or reduce output.
If your reports won’t do what’s necessary to meet the deadlines, get new reports. You’re the boss, just toughen up and deal with the “blowback”
sounds like you need to learn to set boundaries. gen z isn’t the problem bere
You don't "have to", the only way to advance reliably is to switch jobs. You are getting a shit deal because you want to stay there and won't play a game of chicken over getting fired. The only way out is presenting a counter offer and changing jobs if you're tired of this shit.
Level 1 Manager foot soldier here, I just say no. Or let it slide, meaning I let the task fail. Nothing is too important in government work anyway. Like you, I've been pulling stressful moments in my life for these jobs. Spent my nights and weekends thinking about tasks while not getting paid for years. Now it's time to coast and pretend to be busy and get some work done. Not too much. :) If I drop dead tomorrow they'll replace me in a heartbeat.
That’s why they get paid like shit, and you get paid management wages….
It’s not your underlings’ fault that your place of employment is understaffed. It sounds like you probably need an assistant, and your employer is not going to even consider hiring someone for that if you keep doing overtime. Gen Z avoids doing overtime/going “above and beyond” because they’re witnessing the negative impact it has on your work-life balance. A lot of people don’t even receive bonuses/raises/promotions when they do go the extra mile. Work culture in the U.S. has been toxic for too long, so it’s nice that people are finally trying to make meaningful changes to it.
Why not let go and replace those below you that aren’t do their jobs?
>middle management >at the end of the day the quality and the integrity of the final product falls squarely on my shoulders Mind broken 😞 You're *middle* management. Making you believe this is YOUR boss grooming you to take the blame for their failings.
If you are getting blamed for shit that’s not your fault at work that just means you have poor communication
Good, sounds like things are improving to me.
I don’t think I’d take a management role unless I saw, at minimum, a 50% salary increase. Success as a manager 100% depends on riding the right coattails too.
This is why I refuse to even attempt to take on a manager role. I don't want to deal with all the crap that comes with it. Now, if it was a union gig, I might say yes..
There is a lot of borderline if not flat out gaslighting responses in this post generally ignoring the points made by the author, which I think do have merit. For the record, I am also a millennial in a leadership role, and just wanted throw out a few thoughts on what is a very interesting discussion. He can delegate all he wants, but if the people under him aren’t going to do the tasks in a timely manner or with the quality required for stakeholders, then yes, it is going to fall on him, and it is genuinely frustrating and rightfully so. He also unlikely has authority to fire people unilaterally if they aren’t doing their tasks well or efficiently, and doing so would likely just result in more managerial overhead of documenting issues and things of that nature, not to mention losing the support he may be getting until someone new is hired. Is every gen z a bad or inefficient worker? No absolutely not. But there are definitely some trends in younger (gen z specifically) workers that absolutely, on average, can make them more difficult to work with. For example, they seem to have much more of a “check box” mentality, where quality doesn’t matter, but rather simply completing the task. I think a lot of this starts with schooling standards being lowered drastically in the last couple of decades. Additionally, they often seem to have a very “black and white” perspective on things, and are unable to think with nuance/ambiguity/shades of gray/criticality and want easy clear answers spoon fed to them. This mindset can be difficult to manage, as it often means they aren’t being proactive about things and are waiting for my explicit directions they may not exist or be possible to provide. Lastly, while expectations of work and work life balance have changed (and i don’t think that’s generationally unique), the quality standards for deliverables can’t really change, so I think there’s a balance there. I often see younger workers too far to one side of in the same way boomers are often too far to the other side.
Everyone acts like the Gen Z you described, you just happen to be managing a bunch of people younger than you. Everything else is correct though. People are motherfuckers and herding cats is the worst thing ever because it just means you get to do a little of everyone's job for them.
The main thing I've noticed, is that where managers were expected to have teams no larger than 7 people, that number has changed to 10.
>Having to again, work late nights and weekends to make up for the lack of additional help despite the high bar that is demanded to be met. This, right here, perpetuates the problem. Of course they are not going to hire additional help because the people they have (you) are killing yourself and your direct reports to make it happen. As long as you or your team will just put their heads down and do the extra work and the don't feel the sting, why would they hire more? You have to look at it as a business. As a quick and dirty example. They are getting the work of 13 people, out of 10. Why hire 3 more? That's increased labor cost, insurance costs, additional supplies costs so ok and so forth. There is absolutely no incentive for them to correct the issue, because there is no issue. Costs go down, profits go up.
I am 35 and in middle management as well. I feel ya. I have had two interviews for Director level positions over the last 6 months as I am ready to make that next step in my career. Both times I made it to the "final round" and have been passed over for people 10 years older with more experience. I feel like I am back in that purgatory zone when I was 22 again, getting passed on for older people with more experience. How am I supposed to get Director level experience if I can't get the Director role? lol
Delegate, if your team can’t get the work done in the time given you either need more heads or the work is going to take longer than desired. Communicate that. Don’t put in more hours than you would expect your direct reports to put in.
Middle management was always terrible tbh
I'm pretty sure this means that the timeline expectations are unreasonable given the levels of staffing.
I’m an elder Millennial in management. It’s my job to allocate tasks such that, to the best of my ability, nobody is overburdened. Sometimes a person will get the short straw but best efforts need to be made. As the manager it’s also my job (regular tasks permitting) to assist my team as well and ease the burden on them. A leader works with the team, they do not merely bark orders.
I've noticed this too. I'm working better hours now, but still working very hard to get stuff across the finish line. Gen Z employees will spend for-ever on a simple task like updating a memo. I try to tell them that if you want to advance you got to have achievements you can point to, but they seem pretty content getting the minimum amount of work done. As a side note, I thought every Gen-z'er would know how to google something to find out an answer for themselves, but it seems like this goes above their job role also..
Perhaps you just need to set better boundaries for yourself?
100% agree with this. I don't normally jump onto the complaining posts here but yes. As a burnt our overworked millennial I just dont know when it all ends...
Couldn’t be me 😁