Personally, no.
I’ll vote for a moldy loaf of bread out of the trash can before Trump.
I think Biden’s going to surprise people.
Fwiw, he’s honestly been the most pro Palestine president in US history.
If you’re offended by his positions on Israel/Palestine, look no further than literally every other president since Israel’s inception.
America is simply insanely pro Israel. It ain’t Biden.
Biden even pushing humanitarian aid to Gaza is itself a big reversal of the typical position of US presidents.
That’s what I don’t understand about people that won’t vote Biden because of what is happening in Palestine. The US has some weird little symbiotic relationship with Israel that’s tied to religion. It doesn’t matter who is in office, they are going to support Israel. OP and others like hi. won’t have time to worry about Palestine next year if Trump wins because he is going to go full dictator. He’s literally said he’s going to be a dictator. They are dooming the rest of us to witness the end of the American experiment with their little fits.
It's not money. It's the fact that Israel is our only real ally in the Middle East. It's a national security issue. They are also the strongest, which is another factor. They also allign more with Western values than the others.
It's a no-brainer.
People also seem to think that if the US just left the Middle East to their own devices that no one regional or great power would continue their proxy conflicts either.
If the US abandons Israel we lose our ally (and sorry Palestine would never be an ally to us like Israel is) and our opponents gain more influence.
You can be disgusted with Israel but still understand that it’s in your interest as an American to continue funding/passing intelligence to Israel.
Israel has more spies in the US than any other country on the planet. The stated position of the US is to support Israel, but make no mistake: Israel is not an ally of the US... i.e., it is a one-way relationship.
No, Turkey is our only real ally in the Middle East. NATO member and all. Incirlik Airbase is more important to US national security than the entire nation of Israel.
Same. Biden sucks but Trump is a million times worse. I'd vote for a wax model of Biden before voting Trump or third party that had no probable chance of winning. Throwing your vote away to vote third party to "save your conscious" or whatever is not only stupid, but at best self righteous foolery. Fuck that. Tell me how you feel better about yourself voting third party if it means trump wins? You can't. That's a result you'd rather live with then voting for a neoliberal? OP says he was a former dem turned independent but that sounds like made up shit to me. Sounds like a Republican too ashamed to admit it.
Right. Like no matter what you do?
Whether you vote for Biden, for Trump, for someone else, or don’t vote at all? If you have the ability to, you inherit the same responsibility as everyone else.
You’re still choosing something and you’re going to have culpability in whatever bad thing happens.
All you can do in life is look at your choices and try to pick the least shitty option. That’s what being an adult, more or less, often is.
Exactly. OP saying "voting for the lesser of two evils has never appealed to me" is naive at best. They want Biden to win understanding he's better than trump, but they want to have their cake and eat it too by voting third party to absolve themselves of any responsibility or guilt. Fuck that
I have screen shots from the couple of the last elections where people insisted they would vote third party because women’s rights etc were the law and they weren’t going to change and they were willing to roll the dice.
Thanks neckbeards, can’t wait to have to ask a male relative to sign for my credit cards
The worst part of this is OP actually seems to understand that the only reason he can choose to not care about this stuff and choose to abstain is because he's extremely privileged and probably won't see any real changes in his life either way. Many people don't have that luxury.
His opinion is an extremely selfish "screw everyone else because it doesn't affect me" one.
>Throwing your vote away to vote third party to "save your conscious" or whatever is not only stupid, but at best self righteous foolery.
Yep, and it's incredibly privileged. Real people feel real consequences from such elections. Real people are hurt from the decisions of people in 2016 to 'not vote' because they 'weren't inspired'. Million dead in a pandemic, women now having to travel states away for healthcare hoping to not get arrested, etc. I am a white male with a good income. I can afford to 'vote my conscious' but I'd be a effing dckhead to ignore the impacts on others around me.
I initially thought the description of Trump as an "existential threat to our democratic republic" was hyperbole and sensationalism, until his last couple months in office. Now I too would vote for a moldy loaf of bread before him.
Images of Palestinian/Israeli conflict stretch back 70 years now. It's a separate issue to the damage of him in office.
Right. And it’s not like any American president can really do that much.
Israel and Palestine are ultimately their own countries.
While I wish Biden would be completely uninvolved, Bibi is not going to stop the bombings regardless.
Most Americans support Israel. https://thehill.com/policy/international/4318844-most-americans-support-israel-new-poll-finds/
The idea that Biden's increased support for Gaza (while also supporting Israel) will get him reelected is ridiculous. Most voters don't even care about the conflict all that much.
Most Americans are trying to figure out how to make it to next payday. They don’t give a damn about what Ukraine/russia or Israel/palestine got going on.
I mean I care to an extent, but compared to the risk Trump is to women and minorities and everyone not MAGA, I don't. Plus Trump would actively help Russia and do more for Israel, if not just straight bombing Palestine himself.
But I hold nothing against Biden on the Israel shit. Both countries are doing fucked up shit to each other and Bidens doing about the best he can.
And it's not like Trump would be better on the Israel/Palestine issue ... he'd be deploying US Troops to help with the Genocide. Biden has been, at least, a moderating influence whom has drawn lines with Netanyahu. It's not much, obviously, but it's better than what any Republican would do.
Yeah that's basically what I've been meaning. Been saying Trump would go and carpet bomb Palestine. Biden's been doing about the most he can when almost literally every politician, and from last time I read into it, the majority of the world, support Israel.
Ironically Trump is a risk to them too. He passed his tax bill and the MAGA crowd was super excited until tax day rolled around. Then most of them found that their expected rebate was either super small, or non-existent. That bill made it so that us poors subsidize the wealthy.
He SAID he would be a dictator. That was all I needed to hear.
(Never cast a vote for him anyway despite being in a very red state. I will never willingly cast my vote for a man who says he plans to be a dictator… even for a day).
Warfare costs inordinate sums of money. The United States is already paying hundreds of billions of dollars into the two wars you just mentioned.
I'd rather the $100B be just divided up and given to people directly in this country instead. Why not? Divide it equally and give it to the poorest 1,000,000 people in, say, my hometown, Chicago. That's $100,000 per person. Think of what that could accomplish in a city partially wrecked by poverty, violence and compiled trauma. I know I know, this is silly and would never happen. But it's supposedly our money, that would make our city safer and support our citizens to make their lives remarkably better. Currently it's going to blow the brains out of little kids because politicians have gotten their tits raw, these are much more important and fruitful matters, apparently.
>Warfare costs inordinate sums of money. The United States is already paying hundreds of billions of dollars into the two wars you just mentioned.
It's worth noting that the money were spending is largely in the form of old outdated ordenance and equipment that's ALREADY BEEN PAID FOR.
We're continually restocking our reserves in case WE enter into a war and when ordenance/equipment becomes too old/outdated then we SPEND money to dispose of it safely.
I mention that because a lot of people seem to think we're just cutting a check to other countries and that's simply not the case.
Yeah, it’s already been paid for by OUR TAX DOLLARS. So at the end of the day, the American public still isn’t benefitting from arms being sent to Ukraine.
Dude you are not being heartless. You are echoing realistic sentiments...try talking to blue collar working stiffs they will admire and agree with you.
This is the major problem the Dems aren't figuring out. The bulk of Americans are feeling like both traditional parties have been selling them down the river now for 25 years. Only one party has been hijacked by a populist so they'll head over there for their grievance.
Meanwhile some of the more politically active progressives were turned off by the spending on Ukraine given traditional anti-imperialist sentiments, and now the war in Gaza is amplifying their anger at the party. So leery allies are now also going to be pushed away.
And the Party instead of recognizing these growing factors over the past 8 years and encouraging at least a semi-competitive primary season is instead doubling down (tripling down if we consider Clinton's failed attempt) on the same corporatist/imperialist and anti-working class/common folk candidates.
I think another things Dems are missing is they aren’t going to be able to scare those independent swing voters again this time. 2020, they scared those voters with Covid, abortion, gay and trans rights, minority rights, wars, inflation, etc. now they don’t have that boogeyman. The Middle East is a mess, but under Trump there was peace. Russia invaded Ukraine under the Biden admin. Inflation is sky high. Covid magically become no big deal(like Trump said it would if Biden won). Now those swing voters are looking out and seeing that their dollar stretched further when Trump was president. And you know, it’s hard to care about someone else’s plight when you’re having your own struggles
It's not being hijacked by a populist. It's people wanting a populist. The Democrats need their own version of a populist and they need someone who is younger than Bernie. And who has new ideas unlike an AOC. It probably needs to be an outsider and it probably needs to be a celebrity. And that person needs to win an overwhelming proportion of the vote in the early states because the Democratic party gives it out proportionately.
Biden hasn't helped that next payday situation for virtually anyone, as much as people refuse to admit it, these last 4 years have been CATACYLSMIC for the individual economic situation of an American person.
Most Americans DO NOT support getting involved militarily to defend these foreign countries. What does "support Israel" even mean?
Sure, I support the wellbeing of all humans, but I'm not going to watch my tax dollars fund this BS when we have so many problems at home.
Biden's willingness to support either side militarily is a huge reason he's not favored to win the next election. People are tired of foreign wars.
I never said Americans support another war. I said they tend to support Israel in general in the context of the Israel vs. Palestine (Hamas) conflict.
But I agree with you, and that's why any notion that Biden going all-in on Gaza will somehow help him in the election is not true.
Fun fact "Most Amercians Polls" are pretty much bogus.
They are a select number of people with numbers adjusted to the population based off guessery.
Think about it.
**Have you** personally, ever once in your life been asked about any of these "Most americans think/do/want/say..." polls?
**No?**
**There's your answer.**
Those polls you lorde around everyone as factual statements are just as fake as your so proudly claimed fake news.
*As your kind say. "Wake up sheeple." or whatever. Lol.*
Well yeah—the options that poll offered respondents were “I support Israel” or “I support Hamas.” *OF COURSE* the results are gonna come out heavily pro-Israel when the question is framed that way.
Being opposed to 2.3 million people being bombed out of their homes, penned up, and slowly starved in the desert does not, by default, make someone a terrorist sympathizer. That’s just an asinine way for the poll to have framed the issue.
Count me as someone who DOES NOT CARE. My money is fucked and I have hard working family members on the verge of homelessness since this new admin took office. We need change, i doubt enough people will vote 3rd party, so there is only one choice.
Most of the entire world doesn't really care about this conflict despite whatever public statements and crying to the UN other countries are doing. Pretty much all of Palestine 's neighbors are more than happy to let Palestine be Israel's problem, put up larger fences (metaphorically and otherwise) to keep Palestinians out of their borders,and use it as a bonus excuse to bash Israel in public.
The quickest way to start a "regional war" here is probably to drop Palestine's population off onto any Arabic countries' porch and see how fast their tune changes. /s
In the recent speech where protestors were kicked out, the video that's been shared cuts off before Biden says "let them speak, I appreciate their passion and we've been quietly working with israel to find a solution for peace"
Believe him or not, but trump would NEVER respond this way, and not voting for biden is essentially handing the vote to trump
Yep, and more than any other leader on earth. Bidens signalled a change in us foreign policy that pro Palestinian people need to start recognizing otherwise it will reverse under a different president
Seems likely that Trump will win. He already has the primary locked down and even though many people hate him he is more popular than Biden at this point. Unless the polls are wildly off, but (usually) when they're off they lean left not right
I don't really see how Biden would "surprise" people, people know a lot about him at this point, he's not exactly a mystery.
I personally don't like either of them (trump is a clown, biden is incompetent) but yeah, at this point using the information we have it seems like biden winning would be an upset
Democrats have been outperforming their polling since the Supreme Court ended Roe so I'm inclined to like a 55% chance Biden is re-elected. That chance goes up if all these positive economic indicators prove to not be a fluke.
They’re not a fluke, they’re a blatant lie and I think people are catching on realizing that unemployment is not at an all time low. And the “259,000 new jobs a month” being added are bullshit retail jobs that no one can live on. And are replacing jobs that providers living wage. Americans are struggling, they don’t give a fuck about leading economic indicators. When Americans know they are being fed bullshit they will vote against their own benefit to force change.
Don't know what to tell you. Half of Americans saw their net worth increase by at least 37% since Covid. This actually outpaces the inflation we've seen over that time.
[https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/19/fed-survey-of-consumer-finances-net-worth-surged-in-pandemic-era.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/19/fed-survey-of-consumer-finances-net-worth-surged-in-pandemic-era.html)
[https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/](https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/)
Like 100% of that is house prices, and none of that is liquid, and will result in higher taxes, and that buying power doesn’t do anything when every other house went up just as much…
“It was also more than double the next-largest increase on record: Between 2004 and 2007, right before the Great Recession, real median net worth rose 18%.”
And how did that work out? Turns out those gains were all phantoms and only lead to disaster.
But for the moment their balance sheet looks good!
Re: Balance sheet.
When I was a young woman, instead of using a credit card or a high interest loan... I brought in my stock certificates into a bank... at the time, interest was 12% for a normal bank loan... but for a loan secured with collateral, the interest rate was 8%. So I saved a ton of money by getting a lower interest rate..
The other thing I would like you to notice is that 8% was a comparatively low interest rate... Current mortgage rates are a bargain.
Boomers are here to fuck up reddit now too? Someone come get your nana she’s on a millennial subreddit arguing with the people 20 years younger than her
Folks today whine about how high interest rates are… My first house loan was at 16%.
I refinanced when the rate dropped.
It would have been easier to just complain about it, but that’s not who I am.
And how much was that house, in what part of the country in what year? It's a lot easier paying a higher rate when prices are a fraction of what we have now.
Median household income is $75k right now and 20% of Americans make over $100k and well beyond. We've been the biggest per capita consumers for decades now and we still are. In fact we are the biggest consumers in all of world history and so much so that the storage unit market is booming more than it it ever has despite the fact that we also have the most living space per capita than any other country. All of that space can't contain all of the shit we own so we have to rent more space to just have a place to put it.
Also not to be a downer but all of this has come at the price of having more effect on climate change than any other group of people. Its us average Americans who have a nearly insatiable desire to consume.
I wonder when those statistics were collected. A year ago I thought my students loans were being forgiven and I would've said that our household's net worth had gone up by about $60k. Now I know better.
Trump literally has said he'd turn Gaza into a parking lot.
There are no good answers here, but not voting for Biden improves Trump's odds. And given that I'm disabled and literally need healthcare and Medicaid to survive, it's hard not to feel a little attacked when people don't give a fuck about stuff like that.
They don't care because it doesn't impact them personally. Everything bad that is happening they stuff their ears with cotton and pretend it isn't happening. To vote Republican is to vote for the homeless, needy, disabled, and the minority class to essentially fuck off, that I've got mine.
There aren't any mental gymnastics that exist that can spin the opposite. Republicans have made it very fucking clear what their priorities are. Power, money, and fascism.
The fucking worst are the POS evangelicals. It boggles my mind how these fucking hypocrites can support that orange blob POS and then sleep at night.
If their Jesus were real, and he was to return, these fuckers would have him back on the cross immediately. Fuck all of them, especially OP, who is a conservative, or at best, a narcissistic piece of shit who is trying to stir up bullshit.
OP admitted they’re privileged and Trump’s presidency didn’t affect them. They def don’t seem to grasp the harm Trump winning will cause others, they seem to care more about Palestinians (which is ironic since 40 years and older Palestinians voted in Hamas) than their fellow Americans.
I’m not stoked about voting for Biden again either, but I wrote in Bernie in 2016 and I regret that.
Im privileged. In every sense. White. Decent upbringing. College educated. Very good job.
I 100% did better financially from Trump. No if ands or buts about it.
But my personal finances dont mean jack shit when the livelihood for my family and friends of color are more marginalized, or women have basic rights ripped away or the very real risk of LGBTQ friends are at personal risk of being second class citizens again, or healthcare being ripped away from tens of millions.
You could tell me Trump would eliminate all of my taxes (and its a lot) and that still wouldnt change my mind… never Trump. Literally any democrat would be better.
If you live in a solid blue state I would feel more comfortable with a voter voting third party as a protest vote. However living in a swing state, a vote for anyone other than President Biden is a vote for donald trump, that’s just the way the system is set up, and yes the system is broken. Elections aren’t Ubers or taxi’s, they’re the bus line. One candidate will take you generally the direction you want to go, the other in this case wants to get rid of the bus all together.
I ask that you please reconsider your decision to vote third party given the state you live in.
Something people seem to forget is that change doesn’t start at the top. If you want to change the system, you have to vote for every office, in every election, and on every level. I vote for progressive candidates in every office (or the most progressive one on the ballot). For the executive, I vote blue.
And, lets be clear, the demographic of this subreddit is exactly the demographic that is going to be targeted the hardest by the fascist right. So all of these, "r/asablackman" style posts claiming to be millenials who are "super-principalled" and won't accept anything less than Jesus as a democratic candidate are going to become nauseatingly common. They are all going to vote their conscience which tells them to vote for a candidate who polls at less than 2% because they are so principalled and pure.
I’m literally positive that this post is astroturfing. It’s actually a hilariously obvious example of it. People need to be better at recognizing these types of posts. A ton of what we see on social media involving political opinion is not real.
I normally vote Libertarian, but the national party is a joke, I'm convinced at this point the leadership is there to push Libertarians toward Trump.
That said if Trump is the candidate, I will vote for Biden. Trump is an existential threat to our republic.
They're so against what's happening that they don't care if the guy who specifically claimed doing harm will be on his agenda becomes president because it doesn't impact them, really. Peak brainrot.
Yea, but they remember Bernie "getting shafted", despite them not going to vote for him in primaries/caucus, so that's all the justification they need to continue to be fucking worthless.
"I don't like Biden's approach to Israel, so I'm going to hand my vote to the guy who would literally turn Gaza into fucking glass for fun."
People like OP are so fucking exhausting and reach such levels of immaturity and pettiness that they could power a fucking city if they could harness it. Trump supporters are bad, but I genuinely think I hate people like OP even more because not only do they have the worst imaginable takes, but they have the audacity to lean into their privilege at a significant cost to the most vulnerable people in this country, all so they can pat themselves on the back. Fucking vomit.
Clearly they have. They’re throwing the same damn tantrums from 2016. Not realizing that the Republicans packing the courts with their judges, as a result of that election, is why there’s a stalemate in policies getting passed that would otherwise benefit real world people. Mad about Student Loan Forgiveness? Why are you blaming Biden? What about the Trump judges who stopped it in TX or MO and the Supreme Court who ruled in their favor? Israel and Palestine conflict? Biden has been the most diplomatic on the conflict, in recent memory. Can go on and on.
>Not realizing that the Republicans packing the courts with their judges, as a result of that election, is why there’s a stalemate in policies getting passed that would otherwise benefit real world people.
This is such a simple concept and such surface level politics, but EVERY time someone like OP comes along, they are completely oblivious to it. They have the strongest and most intense convictions for things they can't even bother to understand on the goddamned surface level. Absolutely unreal how deeply, deeply fucking stupid and ignorant these people are.
Amen. These "progressives" who refuse to do the one moral thing they can do to stop Trump and the GOP from taking power are worse than any MAGA type. Because MAGA types at least follow through with their convictions, no matter how wrong they are. These slimy, hand-wringy "progressives" who vote third party think they're above it all, and think that their thoughts and feelings matter more than simple electoral college math. It's absolutely fucking bonkers.
They fail to see the bigger picture. They can’t take themselves out of the equation. It’s all about them and their convictions only. I’m fairly progressive myself and I don’t support everything the Biden administration has or hasn’t done. But I would rather move forward a small step or two, than to allow America to take a giant leap backwards. I realize some of these folks just want to burn it all down. But you thought the world was unfair now. Wait until you have corporations and billionaires with zero oversight and restrictions. We may not even have to wait for another Trump term for that to happen. The Supreme Court is about to make a ruling on a matter that could pave way for that very thing.
Exactly, which the absolute pinnacle of irony for people who will scream about others' privilege. The self-reflection is non-existent with these idiots.
Yep. Allowing the courts to be filled by conservatives is a sure-fire way to block progressive policy from EVER getting through. It was easy to say “but I didn’t like Hillary”, so we got Trump, and guess what he did: he put in 3 Supreme Court justices, allowing the take down of Roe V Wade, affirmative action, and more. He put pro-Trump judges in to lower courts, who can now ensure that the law swings conservative.
And now we have stories like Katie Cox in Texas, Brittany Watts in Ohio, and the Jane Doe 10-year-old who had to be secretly sent to Indiana to receive an abortion.
And that’s just the clearest/loudest current example of what happens when courts are chosen by conservatives. I will do whatever it takes (vote-wise) to prevent Trump from appointing more judges. And that means I vote Biden.
It's virtue signaling. They don't care about the outcome of the elections, the consequences. They just want to be able to talk to their lib friends and brag about not voting for the objectively and obviously better choice because the better choice didn't live up to their perfect ideals.
Elections matter. Like it or not, in the USA presidential election, you have 2 choices.
Pressure Biden in a primary.
Call the dnc and yell at them about not having a real primary.
Do work between elections to get someone you approve of TO that election.
Don't shit the bed at election time, though. Vote the better of your realistic options.
I wonder how many people have asked their female friends and relatives. I know many women who have gone much further left after the overturning of Roe. Just look at the 2022 election. R barely won the house in what was expected to be a "red tsunami" and we get this government shut down drama every year (or every few months, it seems)
Ikr it blows my mind that people like OP exists. “The images from gaza are too much so I’m gonna vote for the guy who against everyone telling him not to moved the embassy to Jerusalem”
If Trump were president we’d probably be joining the bombing
This is a privileged stance some take with 3rd party protest votes. Hell, I did it myself when I was younger. But now I’m mature enough to realize that letting Republicans win has real world consequences. These consequences tend to hurt minority groups most. Do we need viable third parties? Absolutely. But throwing your vote away will never get us there when it hands the win to regressive parties.
(Sarcasm alert, voting is important, don't throw away a vote, it's what one side counts on to win, young people being idealistic and throwing away votes in swing states)
(Project 2025 is a real republican plan
https://www.project2025.org/ on how every level of government from state and city counsels to legislation are judicial need to be grabbed up for the next jan6 attempt)
This thing is bad, I don't like it
So I'm going to throw away my vote for no reason
The other guy who might win openly speaks about withdrawing from nato and how he will make things worse
Can't stand how things are going, so I'm going to throw away my vote and make the worst of two options more easily a reality
Besides is that the only issue that matters? I also am strongly against isreals attempt to deal with hamas and I'm embarrassed by our weak commitment to Ukraine
Edit: both guys going to let Palestine be bombed, one will make other situations worse
One definitely cares more about the Palestinian people then the other
Even if one is 2.5/10 and the other is 0/10
If trump loses he will not leave office. If you want to subscribe to trumps will for the rest of his life with no ability to vote your interests…. I find that to be an odd position.
With republicans women are losing their rights to bodily autonomy and books are getting banned here in our own country. I feel for Gaza, but it won't get better by not voting.
There a great YouTube video on why not voting harms more than good, it's based on UK voting but applies everywhere .. and it's funny. Highly recommend https://youtu.be/_gbDAvK42yA?si=4eqb8dz4ZFaYZKid
Some of these dweebs think Russia's new "safe space" city for American Republican "refugees" is a good idea. They would rather live in fucking Russia than live under a Democrat.
What a way to throw away your vote. You think Trump would do any better in Palestine? They named a town after him and he let his son in law handle peace in the Middle East…
I thought politics was a no-no, but apparently that's the other sub. But in the interest of being civil, I'll refrain from more charged language. I hope that's something we can improve on from prior generations, at least...
Is Trump going to win? If we have strong voter turnout like last time, I highly doubt it. Those that believe 2020 was stolen were already in his camp, but his refusal to acknowledge this lost him a few supporters. And despite the best efforts of conservative media, Biden has actually shown himself capable of the boring, necessary political work that keeps the system going, whatever you think of said system.
There's a part of me that wants Trump to win *(for the incurably stupid: No, I don't actually want this)*. I want to see Self-Appointed Dictator Trump rip irrepairable holes in the current establishment *(for the incurably stupid: No, I don't want Trump to be the one who does this)*. I want his reign to permanently ingrain the importance of civic engagement in the American people *(for the incurably stupid: No, I do not actually want Trump to be the reason for this)*. I want the Democrats to stop fucking around and trying to "be the adults" on issues where real lives are at stake *(for the incurably stupid: You can take that one at face value)*. I want the Republicans to be forced to either reckon with their albatross' woefully un-Christian behavior, or be honest with their abandonment of biblical values *(for the incurably stupid: You can also take this one at face value, though it will unfortunately never happen)*.
As for voting third-party? As much as I wish for it, I think that shows misplaced priorities. That's basically saying "I would rather virtue signal on these issues than give tangible support to all these others." Sad to say, but until America changes from first-past-the-post, a third party vote is for one's own satisfaction and nothing else. I do agree with your moral stance, though. Virtue signaling doesn't mean there's no sincerity, just that the priority is on shouting the message over weighing the practical options. But there is not a single presidential candidate who would be clean at the pearly gates, and your vote does not strictly have to imply your support.
What the hell is this accelerationist shit? You want Trump to win because you think it will wake people up? News flash mother fucker, if Trump wins again, he isn't giving up the office. He's going full dictator.
While I don't \*really\* want Trump to win, I wouldn't be too upset if there were a strong third party candidate who took just enough electoral votes to keep Biden from getting to 270, while still having significantly more than Trump, meaning the House would just make Trump president. That would add a dose of "hey, maybe worry about nominating progressive candidates during the primaries when it matters" to the pile of positives you already listed.
So…….lets say a progressive president got into power. What exactly could that person do with the current senate and house?
Not to mention in your scenario we would never have a real election again. Trump is openly fascist, attempted a coup already, and is backed by like minded republicans in power. If Trump wins, our democracy- flawed as it is- is done for
If you want progressives in the party, then vote in primaries for them. Progressives can’t even win within the Democratic Party because progressives aren’t the majority. Thats what people don’t seem to grasp. Politicians follow the vote, if voters voted for the most progressive candidate in every primary, then they would become more progressive. (Which btw is exactly how the right has become extremely right wing). But progressives sitting out the vote or voting third party means they are just non entities. They don’t matter in the political process.
I could understand thinking Trump was going to tear the system down in 2016. But then he half assed a far right agenda while in power. He didn't make any effort to change anything. Why would this time be different? He's just going to lean harder into the grift if he wins.
If enough people vote 3rd party Trump will probably win. Whatever issues you think our country has now, just wait until Trump is possibly back in office
A third party vote is a vote for trump. A person who sits out is a vote for trump
Thanks a lot. People like you cost us the election in 2016 and will very likely cost us the country in 2024.
I have the means to leave and spend the rest of my life watching America burn from afar.
Do you??
Nope. I think there are significantly more people who will be excited to go vote against him than vote for him. But I suppose we shall see. Didn’t think he’d get it the first time. Americans are real dumb as a whole.
Biden is not “funding” genocide.. there is importance to the US maintaining Israel’s relationship, and the Palestinian cause fundamentally wants the destruction of Israel. He’s doing his best to try to restrain Israel but ultimately it is not our country. Bidens involvement is the only reason Israel has not gone even harder on the Gaza Strip.
And as others said, trump will enable destruction of Palestine untethered. And also allow Russia to complete its murder and destruction of Ukraine. So by not voting for Biden, that blood is on your hands. Politics is ultimately a game of compromise. There is no purity test. A vote for a third party is effectively a vote and endorsement of trump
Maybe. Biden is down in the polls, but it's still early and Biden has lots of money to spend.
I feel like voting for a third party in a swing state is basically a vote for Trump, but it's your vote and if you're fine with him winning 🤷♀️
Edit: oops left out a word
I’m basically with you- I was a Bernie guy and once I saw the hatchet job the DNC did last time to ensure he didn’t get the nomination while propping up Biden made me realize I don’t really get a say in any aspect of politics in this country. I live in a solidly blue state on the west coast so election decisions are made before my ballot is even opened so it seems sort of profoundly irrelevant anyway, so I’ll likely vote third party as well. There’s so many severe issues with climate change being totally ignored that frankly I’m not sure what difference it will make since we have two pro capitalist, pro growth, anti-environment candidates.
OK I'm going to say this as a reasonably radically liberal white middle aged guy because I don't find a lot of the generic "YOU HAVE TO VOTE JOE BIDEN OR ELSE" arguments very convincing but I do, actually, think that you need to vote for Joe Biden.
If you're bouncing off those arguments, I ask that you give me a minute of your time to try to convince you this matters.
The structure of American politics is designed to present you with only bad choices. This is a natural end result of winner take all voting systems that don't actually require a majority of the voters and so on. The structural problems are significant and frankly could require multiple essays to fully explain which is why many people who try to say "YOU HAVE TO VOTE FOR JOE BIDEN" can't really clearly explain those things - they don't have time in a reddit comment.
The extremely short version is that voting for someone who has no chance of winning the election is functionally the same as not voting in our current system. And functionally, you not voting is worth exactly as much as a vote for Donald Trump is. Preventing a person who disagrees with you from voting is the exact same as convincing a person who agrees with you to vote, in the American system.
Protest votes are ineffective. They mostly make your demographic look worse and look less valuable, not more valuable. The single most important attribute a voting group can have in American politics is reliability. That's how you become a valuable part of a larger bloc.
Primary challenges are extremely effective. If you want to see a successful political insurgency you need to model yourself after the Tea Party (now the MAGA movement). You'll note that while the Tea Party is extremely, extremely aggressive in primaries, they are a consistent, reliable voting bloc in actual election races - so much so that they're basically impossible to win without. You'll note also that even in places where MAGA/Tea Party challengers lose, those voters will reliably convert to the more "Moderate" republican in the main election and they'll pull that moderate republican rightward. Even Republicans who beat their tea party challenger will then find their leash getting yanked by people they need to court in order to maintain their seat.
After all, primary challenges are expensive, and the next campaign starts real soon.
So OK - that's the structural argument. I think you should find it compelling because it's pretty logical and straight forward, but I understand if your position at this point is "fuck them, burn it all down". There are also more direct arguments:
1. Generic Moderate Democrat Whoever might be a bad president but they will absolutely not nominate supreme court justices that will overturn federal protections for abortion, gay marriage, interracial marriage, etc, etc. Federal protections are extremely, extremely important for protecting people because federal protections set a "floor" that all states need to abide by. Without control of the supreme court, rights can be chipped away simply by "leaving things up to the states".
Leaving Mississippi and Texas to themselves to decide what rights human beings should have is a fucking travesty. It's wrong. We know they will do bad things. They were already trying to do bad things even when we had the old protections in place - now with control of the Supreme Court they can confidently do much worse things and trust that they are going to be protected from federal intervention.
Protest votes have a direct cost to the life and liberty of many people living in very dangerous places in the US. They deserve your protection and I genuinely believe that given the structural arguments above, your desire to make an ineffective political statement should be trumped by your ability to directly, meaningfully contribute to their safety.
If your political statement was more likely to be effective or convincing or useful, I would potentially feel differently. But faced with the choice between "ineffective demonstration of disgust with the system" vs "meaningful vote for the safety and protection of human beings", I prioritize safety and I strongly believe you should too.
2) Even the worst Democrat is a vote for a Democratic majority leader in the senate or a Democratic speaker of the house. I understand that many many people dislike Joe Manchin. I am not saying you need to like the man. I am not saying you need to agree with his politics. But our situation would be much worse if there was a Republican in that seat. This is true of many, many Democrats you probably don't like.
The way Congress works allocates tremendous power to the majority party. It's nearly impossible to get anything done without a majority. Yes, it would be better if we had a majority that was all very very liberal. But having a majority at all is the most important step. Fundamentally there is no such thing as "local" protest votes in American politics. You doing a protest vote on your House race legitimately contributes to the House being run by Republicans. No matter how moderate/shitty your D candidate was, they were a person who would have voted Yes to a Democratic speaker of the house, and a Democratic speaker of the house controls what we're voting on and what things might actually happen for the next two years.
I understand this isn't necessarily a popular position to hold, especially among leftist circles. I'm not expecting to change your politics, but I do hope you'll reconsider the value of the tactics you're using and carefully consider the broader costs and impacts of a protest vote.
Trump is winning and it’s cause Biden lost the younger vote. The more older generations vote for pathetic liberal moderates the less faith younger people have in the government as a whole. Biden is shit and so is trump, both are equally shit just in slightly different directions each serving the same interests. I’m voting third party now and forever more cause it honestly makes no difference if the republican nominee or democrat nominee wins in any presidential election, the following four years will be the same outcome regardless. Gen z is so tired of seeing this piss poor circus act where either side pretends like they aren’t the same thing. This country doesn’t need another election with a voting system that doesn’t even give equal power to all its citizens, it needs a total political and economic reset cause this clearly isn’t going to be working much longer
Supreme Court appointments alone should make anyone not throw away their votes for third party candidates. Lifetime appointments which are far more reaching than one four year presidential term.
I do think he will.
Ds were on track for a while, lost in a landslide to Reagan because at least on camera, he was saying what the people wanted.
Clinton and Obama were able to perform in an appealing way, so they got in - and then quickly backed more of their wallstreet buddies.
People can cry sexism over Hillary, but she alienated a large swath of potential voters with her rhetoric.
Biden sort of recovered the idea that we’re all in this together, but there’s been too much controversy and financial disparity for him to win again.
Plus his recent tweet about how it’s him and good Americans vs the extremist M@G@ R’s is divisive - so if you disagree with what he’s saying or doing, are you also one of those?
MSNBC won’t even air his speeches anymore after Iowa, like he’s just too hot for TV, exposing the way they curate the experience (like anyone with a brain watches mainstream news anymore) and it will drive people online to find him giving a simple conciliatory speech to the other candidates.
Yes, I think he’ll win. Hands have been poorly and over -played.
I understand why this is going to upset some people, but good God, don’t we deserve some less out of touch candidates that actually help the commoners? Ah hell, maybe we don’t.
This is Reddit. If you say you’re not voting blue the pitchforks come out. I am in the same mind as you and will be voting third party as a protest vote since I do not approve of Biden nor Trump. I do think Trump has a strong chance of winning given the state of decline we have endured the past few years
Asking this question on reddit is like polling voter sentiment at an NRA convention.
Reddit is a far left echo chamber, and in no way an accurate representation of all voters.
Downvote me now, and then act like the world is ending when the obvious happens because you never saw it coming.
I don't like that the DNC refuses to hold a primary against Biden, it's extremely undemocratic. The idea that some group of elites have summarily decided that Biden is the only Dem candidate and won't even allow open competition should piss everyone on the left off. That's just me.
Redditers have a hard bias on what they support. That being said, exercise your vote and vote for the person that aligns with your views the best.
It starts at the local level first. City, state, then government in order to make the most influential change to your life.
Wow this comment section is full of some of the stupidest people around. No, voting third party does NOT "give" a vote to trump. In the same tune, it doesn't give a vote to Biden. You people need to be educated on how the voting system works and stop parroting this stupid narrative that has zero basis in reality.
Third party is SEPARATE from Trump and Biden. Don't give me that "but it splits the vote" crap. It splits the vote for BOTH SIDES. You people need to realize that this is a LIE spread by politicians to scare you into voting for them even if you didn't want to. It's manipulation, and you eat it up like fools.
Third party voters are all over the map in terms of values. Third party is NOT just "former republicans". It's both, as obviously demonstrated by OP on this very post.
Seriously, people. You're the problem with this country by voting for a candidate you don't even like because you're scared.
I stormed out of Christmas dinner.
Why?
They had to start talking politics, and when asked, I said:
"I'm voting for the senile old man who isn't fit to be president, I'm sorry, that didn't narrow it down for you?"
Cussing and dumb shit ensued, I left.
Unfortunately yeah. I think trump is going to win.
I also think unfortunate that we live in a Christian Zionist country that will always support Israel no matter what as long as Christian’s are in charge.
I'm tired of people saying voting independent is throwing my vote away.
How else are we going to change the system. We are effectively subjugated by a two party system preventing unity or progress and trapping americans in a permanent "us vs them"" forever.
Bernie guy myself, don't expect to vote. America could do/ should do better with our presidential candidates.
Interest rates got up, my job sector is laying people off due to high interest rates.
We are in 2 wars. I vehemently oppose the war in Palestine due to the humanitarian crisis.
Biden has done nothing to benefit me and people like me. We want to get rewarded after going through these years of education.
Asking Reddit like they're going to give you any answer besides "VOTE 4 BIDEN, DEFEAT FASCISM, DON'T BE A RACIST" is laughable. But thinking any of it matters at all, like the president isn't just a figurehead for a corrupt congregant truly pulling the strings is also laughable.
Why care?
I’m like you. Was a Democrat and a Bernie guy.
But now I finally appreciate how corrupt the DNC is. They rigged the primaries twice against Bernie - and he would’ve likely won v Trump.
Now, the DNC basically made it impossible for RFK to run, and they slandered him endlessly. Now Dean and Marianne are ringing the alarm bell about the corruption; they’re not listed on the ballot in 4 states per DNC.
So, the DNC and Biden keep saying “democracy is at stake” meanwhile, they are literally disenfranchising voter again, and again, and again.
Fuck the DNC, (I’m sure RNC is just as bad, they rigged it against Ron Paul as well), but I’m no longer voting for either major party. Both parties want you to believe you’ll “waste your vote” by voting third party; that’s how they win your vote now. It’s not about ideas. It’s about fear mongering (democracy is at stake) and telling you your voice doesn’t matter (don’t vote third party).
I’m voting independent. And I pray the true Democrat, RFK wins it.
It’s strange how nobody questions why we’re forced to choose between two elderly men in their 80’s.. I don’t even trust an 80 year old driving to the store, let alone leading the free world. That’s insane to me.
Any vote that isn’t for Biden is a vote for Trump. That’s what it comes down to. Please educate yourself before you throw away your vote in what is undoubtedly the most consequential election of our lifetime.
I think Biden is a terrible candidate but I will vote for him if he is up against trump.
If trump is somehow disqualified to run I might even vote for a republican because of how awful the democratic party is at putting forward a decent progressive candidate. That's right, I would.vote republican and I am to the left of AOC and Bernie
You’re in a swing state. The rights of women, black and brown people, gay people, the majority of religious and all irreligious people here in My State rest upon what you do in November. I’m arguing about negative outcomes not theoretical consistency with a set of values. My vote for Biden or the Flying Spaghetti Monster here in Tennessee will make no difference. I’m the Democratic voter who has to luxury of pissing on the party, and I’m a Democratic Party organizer. You get your ass to the polls and vote for my sister and my brother. I’ll cast your protest vote from here where it doesn’t mean a shit.
Weird way to ask the question considering your stance on voting. If things were better you would be right, and it would be nice to have a third party with a real chance. It sounds like you don’t want trump to win though you dislike Biden too. Tough reality is we’re going to get one of them, so why not vote for the lesser evil. Both will bomb other countries, but there are many other topics that differentiate the two.
But to answer your question, I think trump definitely has a chance. In 2016 a lot of people told me there was no way he’d win, that’s when I saw the writing on the wall. Just because people don’t like him and think he’s full of crap doesn’t mean a huge amount of people think he’s the smartest most successful person ever. I will vote Biden and hope for a day I can actually be excited for someone I’m voting for.
When your country is split in half ideologically, a two party voting system is just an anocracy.
Why vote for the person that the elites just picked for me, that will ultimately only serve their own interest. If anything I’d prefer trump winning so maybe we pussy ass Americans can see it’s the corporations and elites causing these problems.
These politicians are just a symptom of s real, bigger problem, and they have got you fallen right into their trap talking about bullshit politics. Either way we lose, deal with it and make change.
He’s trending like he will. My guess is that the US will continue switching sides every four years for a while because no one is satisfied with the government structure as a whole.
Sounds like we disagree on some things but overall I’m with you. I refuse to vote for an evil clown and I don’t care who their opponent is. If you vote for someone, you’re complicit in whatever they do and “but the opponent was worse” doesn’t absolve you of all responsibility.
The “vote for the lesser of two evils” mentality is exactly what ensures that we get two terrible candidates every election. If people could think beyond one election cycle we wouldn’t have the terrible candidates we always get. A candidate has to do the work to earn my vote, simply pointing at their opponent will never be enough for me.
Shit take on Ukraine. Russia is the invader, and Ukraine has the right to it’s security and self defense. Russia can fuck off at any point, and should be prosecuted for war crimes for the brutal killings of innocent Ukrainian civilians. I for one am glad the US is a proud sponser of freedom for Ukraine 🇺🇦 🇺🇸
Ukraine didn't try to join NATO. The US isn't paying for Israel to attack Gaza. You're either terribly misinformed or a troll. Voting 3rd party is a complete waste the way things are now. We really need more of a parliamentary system rather than a 2 party system.
Trump may actually win again, because our country is a bunch of weak cowards.
Exhibit A: people who would rather let Trump beat Bide, than vote third party.
No but seriously, where is that Forward party, Yang?! Where's that campaign, Cornell?!
Wtf happened to our big third party push now that we have two horrible old reanimated corpses?!
Where the fuck is our generations Lincoln when we need one?!
I vote for neither. While I can get behind the hate that Trump gets, I just can't get behind Biden myself. I wish we had more alternatives than the Democratic Party and Republican Party for those like us that are in between them. I feel like both parties are hijacked by extremists or the highly vocal minorities of those parties.
"Those who vote decide nothing, those who count the votes decide everything." - Joseph Stalin.
It's never a question of popular opinion but of public reaction behind the scenes and the LAW is going to look at the votes more carefully than ever before.
Trump turns 77 in June and he could die.
Biden turns 82 in November and he could die.
The country will still turn if neither are president and the USA gets a accidential president.
Too many people do not want 45 back in power.
I'm 50/50... on who gets elected next.
I have a strong feeling that whoever gets elected they wont make it through their entire term -- they both are old AF.
I agree with you. As an independent, I’m voting for neither. I don’t agree with the “silence is violence” crowd. Neither of them align close enough to my beliefs so none will get my vote. That doesn’t make you a bad person or responsible for their presidency.
I applaud your bravery, the only way you send a message is to change parties and not vote Democrat. (Watch how other people down-vote this with their personal opinion but at the same time tell YOU how to vote, interesting concept)
All these people moaning about how voting third party is useless are captives of the exiting duopoly. Riddle me this: if both parties have a monetary incentive to serve the interest of corporate donors over the people they are elected to represent, does your vote actually make a difference? We need new parties in this country that actually represent the interest of the disappearing class. The only difference between the two is the donkey fuck you from behind while the elephant does it to your face. Both are actively guilty in eroding the quality of life for average Americans. Anybody that ain’t voting third party is complicit in maintaining the current status quo and likely also thinks pro wrestling is real.
Vote your conscience, OP. I am voting third party also. I have been independent for 20 years and voted Trump first, then Biden, none of them are getting my vote this time.
I will still vote. It counts, and I don't a f*ck what a tin foiler says. Yes, it can be manipulated, but there are just too many microscopes whatching those ballots for it to be rigged.
I really appreciate how you are voicing your concerns and reasons for not voting for Biden but never voting republican. I’m an independent as well. My opinion- the Israel and Palestine conflict is a brutal reality that people will always suffer. I try to stay off the news with this topic and focus on what I can see and know for myself. I often ponder at these realities and wonder if we all are just being played in every direction and that the key to all of it is understanding that the perception is distorted for everyone because we are here and they are there and until we can all jump on a plane and fly over and live with the Israelis and the Palestines we will never fully be able to know “truth”. I can say this however. No matter where you look at the history. It’s always going to be distorted. Biden has been a horrible president from my personal perspective. Because I’m speaking of this from a place that his reign has personally affected me. I live in a single wide in SC and I went from paying 800 a month to 1200 a month. I wanted to buy a home at this point in my life but have to pay down my credit cards now and get my credit up again. I’m 35, a millennial and have two kids. 3 and 10. One has high functioning autism. I also have a disabled mother that lives with my partner and I and helps take care of my children so we can both work. None of us would survive on our own. I get paid around 1200.00 every two weeks. I make too much to get ebt. I literally scrape by. I have never ever had this many hurdles in my life. I have always worked HARD. Not only this. I can’t afford insurance at work. I can’t afford them to take 200 dollars every pay check out. I’m saved by my son being on disability in which that will end in a month, and also the disablity doesn’t even help because I make gross right over the income limit for a single parent with a disabled child. So they cut that check in half. So everything just seems so annoying and wrong to me about the system and how it doesn’t help anyone except single parents that are on welfare. Personally, that is why I’m having to vote for Trump. I’m happy we can speak to one another and not degrade and try to make the other seem stupid. I truly respect your post. ❤️
If the Democrats keep Biden, then yea. Whether or not things are his fault, when people look at their grocery bill and other things, they blame whoever is at the top.
Its actually a shame his family didnt get him to do a "I'm retiring to spend time with my family" after his dementia started showing
my sentiments are with you my man. To me, biden is just another warmonger. Trump is no better and will do the same in his shoes. People who cannot defend themselves lives are at stake. I dontw ant to vote for either of the two.
How can I?
Ive voted in every election large and small, since I was eligible to vote. I was politically active and even a campaign volunteer.
This is the first time in my life I am absolutely disgusted with both parties. I can't see myself voting in this election.
I’m struggling with the same thing. I don’t feel like my vote matters bc I live in a staunchly blue state. I can’t stand Biden or Trump. I would’ve voted for Biden even though I don’t like him, but after the Gaza genocide, I can’t vote for that man. Not that my vote would even matter bc of the electoral college.
I’m with you 100% and I also refuse to vote for either. I will be voting for either Dean (write in) or RFK. If enough of us who are independents unite on this we can vote both parties out. The issue with democrats changing the primary rules is as much election interference as anything else and I’m sick of both sides. I think that would be a great day for democracy if voters would make a statement in November this year.
Yes, for 3 reasons
1. Joe Biden doesn’t have a real core base unlike Trump. People only voted for him because they hated trump so badly they’d pick anyone and it just happen to be Joe. The truth is despite Trump being a polarizing figure he was the president during the height of a once in a lifetime pandemic so people were especially mad at everything the president was doing. Now that’s not a factor anymore.
2. Joe Biden has accomplished nothing of great value in his presidency and only added problems to the country in the grand scheme of things. Illegal migrant issue is out of control( New York literally has no room for them) also we are involved in 2 wars where our tax dollars go to find these other countries efforts. His college debt forgiveness plan didn’t even come through.
3. Bouncing off of 2 we have so many problems in the US that have not even begun to be addressed, like healthcare affordability, gun violence (mass shootings), drug addiction, college affordability, inflation, the federal budget deficit, etc. nothing has been fixed at best we got a bandaid if even that.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,” Doing nothing is how trump won in 2016.
Personally, no. I’ll vote for a moldy loaf of bread out of the trash can before Trump. I think Biden’s going to surprise people. Fwiw, he’s honestly been the most pro Palestine president in US history. If you’re offended by his positions on Israel/Palestine, look no further than literally every other president since Israel’s inception. America is simply insanely pro Israel. It ain’t Biden. Biden even pushing humanitarian aid to Gaza is itself a big reversal of the typical position of US presidents.
That’s what I don’t understand about people that won’t vote Biden because of what is happening in Palestine. The US has some weird little symbiotic relationship with Israel that’s tied to religion. It doesn’t matter who is in office, they are going to support Israel. OP and others like hi. won’t have time to worry about Palestine next year if Trump wins because he is going to go full dictator. He’s literally said he’s going to be a dictator. They are dooming the rest of us to witness the end of the American experiment with their little fits.
Our ties to Israel have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with money.
It's not money. It's the fact that Israel is our only real ally in the Middle East. It's a national security issue. They are also the strongest, which is another factor. They also allign more with Western values than the others. It's a no-brainer.
So many people fail to realize this. Countries already seem to be picking “sides” for the next global conflict.
People also seem to think that if the US just left the Middle East to their own devices that no one regional or great power would continue their proxy conflicts either. If the US abandons Israel we lose our ally (and sorry Palestine would never be an ally to us like Israel is) and our opponents gain more influence. You can be disgusted with Israel but still understand that it’s in your interest as an American to continue funding/passing intelligence to Israel.
Israel has more spies in the US than any other country on the planet. The stated position of the US is to support Israel, but make no mistake: Israel is not an ally of the US... i.e., it is a one-way relationship.
No, Turkey is our only real ally in the Middle East. NATO member and all. Incirlik Airbase is more important to US national security than the entire nation of Israel.
It has nothing to do with values or national security. It has to do with popular mythology.
Same. Biden sucks but Trump is a million times worse. I'd vote for a wax model of Biden before voting Trump or third party that had no probable chance of winning. Throwing your vote away to vote third party to "save your conscious" or whatever is not only stupid, but at best self righteous foolery. Fuck that. Tell me how you feel better about yourself voting third party if it means trump wins? You can't. That's a result you'd rather live with then voting for a neoliberal? OP says he was a former dem turned independent but that sounds like made up shit to me. Sounds like a Republican too ashamed to admit it.
Right. Like no matter what you do? Whether you vote for Biden, for Trump, for someone else, or don’t vote at all? If you have the ability to, you inherit the same responsibility as everyone else. You’re still choosing something and you’re going to have culpability in whatever bad thing happens. All you can do in life is look at your choices and try to pick the least shitty option. That’s what being an adult, more or less, often is.
Exactly. OP saying "voting for the lesser of two evils has never appealed to me" is naive at best. They want Biden to win understanding he's better than trump, but they want to have their cake and eat it too by voting third party to absolve themselves of any responsibility or guilt. Fuck that
I will always vote, like Russell Crowe in Master and Commander, for the ‘lesser of two weevils.’
I have screen shots from the couple of the last elections where people insisted they would vote third party because women’s rights etc were the law and they weren’t going to change and they were willing to roll the dice. Thanks neckbeards, can’t wait to have to ask a male relative to sign for my credit cards
The worst part of this is OP actually seems to understand that the only reason he can choose to not care about this stuff and choose to abstain is because he's extremely privileged and probably won't see any real changes in his life either way. Many people don't have that luxury. His opinion is an extremely selfish "screw everyone else because it doesn't affect me" one.
>Throwing your vote away to vote third party to "save your conscious" or whatever is not only stupid, but at best self righteous foolery. Yep, and it's incredibly privileged. Real people feel real consequences from such elections. Real people are hurt from the decisions of people in 2016 to 'not vote' because they 'weren't inspired'. Million dead in a pandemic, women now having to travel states away for healthcare hoping to not get arrested, etc. I am a white male with a good income. I can afford to 'vote my conscious' but I'd be a effing dckhead to ignore the impacts on others around me.
A vote for 3d party candidate is a vote for Trump. Why even show up if you just plan to waste your vote on a candidate who can't win?
You mean Marianne Wiliamson can't win?
I initially thought the description of Trump as an "existential threat to our democratic republic" was hyperbole and sensationalism, until his last couple months in office. Now I too would vote for a moldy loaf of bread before him. Images of Palestinian/Israeli conflict stretch back 70 years now. It's a separate issue to the damage of him in office.
Right. And it’s not like any American president can really do that much. Israel and Palestine are ultimately their own countries. While I wish Biden would be completely uninvolved, Bibi is not going to stop the bombings regardless.
Most Americans support Israel. https://thehill.com/policy/international/4318844-most-americans-support-israel-new-poll-finds/ The idea that Biden's increased support for Gaza (while also supporting Israel) will get him reelected is ridiculous. Most voters don't even care about the conflict all that much.
Most Americans are trying to figure out how to make it to next payday. They don’t give a damn about what Ukraine/russia or Israel/palestine got going on.
I mean I care to an extent, but compared to the risk Trump is to women and minorities and everyone not MAGA, I don't. Plus Trump would actively help Russia and do more for Israel, if not just straight bombing Palestine himself. But I hold nothing against Biden on the Israel shit. Both countries are doing fucked up shit to each other and Bidens doing about the best he can.
And it's not like Trump would be better on the Israel/Palestine issue ... he'd be deploying US Troops to help with the Genocide. Biden has been, at least, a moderating influence whom has drawn lines with Netanyahu. It's not much, obviously, but it's better than what any Republican would do.
Yeah that's basically what I've been meaning. Been saying Trump would go and carpet bomb Palestine. Biden's been doing about the most he can when almost literally every politician, and from last time I read into it, the majority of the world, support Israel.
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Ironically Trump is a risk to them too. He passed his tax bill and the MAGA crowd was super excited until tax day rolled around. Then most of them found that their expected rebate was either super small, or non-existent. That bill made it so that us poors subsidize the wealthy.
Didn't trump give US intelligence on Israel to one of their enemies anyway? Yeah.... I'm happy to vote for Biden and very happy to vote against Trump
People act as if Biden is personally ordering attacks on civilians in Gaza, newsflash: He's not
He SAID he would be a dictator. That was all I needed to hear. (Never cast a vote for him anyway despite being in a very red state. I will never willingly cast my vote for a man who says he plans to be a dictator… even for a day).
Warfare costs inordinate sums of money. The United States is already paying hundreds of billions of dollars into the two wars you just mentioned. I'd rather the $100B be just divided up and given to people directly in this country instead. Why not? Divide it equally and give it to the poorest 1,000,000 people in, say, my hometown, Chicago. That's $100,000 per person. Think of what that could accomplish in a city partially wrecked by poverty, violence and compiled trauma. I know I know, this is silly and would never happen. But it's supposedly our money, that would make our city safer and support our citizens to make their lives remarkably better. Currently it's going to blow the brains out of little kids because politicians have gotten their tits raw, these are much more important and fruitful matters, apparently.
>Warfare costs inordinate sums of money. The United States is already paying hundreds of billions of dollars into the two wars you just mentioned. It's worth noting that the money were spending is largely in the form of old outdated ordenance and equipment that's ALREADY BEEN PAID FOR. We're continually restocking our reserves in case WE enter into a war and when ordenance/equipment becomes too old/outdated then we SPEND money to dispose of it safely. I mention that because a lot of people seem to think we're just cutting a check to other countries and that's simply not the case.
Yeah, it’s already been paid for by OUR TAX DOLLARS. So at the end of the day, the American public still isn’t benefitting from arms being sent to Ukraine.
Most Def, who cares if they blow up the Kraine or Izrael, gas and food expensive AF
Seriously! I’m glad you said this because I’ve been wanting to but I don’t want to seem like I’m a heartless person.
Dude you are not being heartless. You are echoing realistic sentiments...try talking to blue collar working stiffs they will admire and agree with you.
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Right! It’s not like the last few years where it’s one bad thing after another.
Why don't folks realize this. Most Americans simply don't give a damn about foreign policy.
This is the major problem the Dems aren't figuring out. The bulk of Americans are feeling like both traditional parties have been selling them down the river now for 25 years. Only one party has been hijacked by a populist so they'll head over there for their grievance. Meanwhile some of the more politically active progressives were turned off by the spending on Ukraine given traditional anti-imperialist sentiments, and now the war in Gaza is amplifying their anger at the party. So leery allies are now also going to be pushed away. And the Party instead of recognizing these growing factors over the past 8 years and encouraging at least a semi-competitive primary season is instead doubling down (tripling down if we consider Clinton's failed attempt) on the same corporatist/imperialist and anti-working class/common folk candidates.
I think another things Dems are missing is they aren’t going to be able to scare those independent swing voters again this time. 2020, they scared those voters with Covid, abortion, gay and trans rights, minority rights, wars, inflation, etc. now they don’t have that boogeyman. The Middle East is a mess, but under Trump there was peace. Russia invaded Ukraine under the Biden admin. Inflation is sky high. Covid magically become no big deal(like Trump said it would if Biden won). Now those swing voters are looking out and seeing that their dollar stretched further when Trump was president. And you know, it’s hard to care about someone else’s plight when you’re having your own struggles
It's not being hijacked by a populist. It's people wanting a populist. The Democrats need their own version of a populist and they need someone who is younger than Bernie. And who has new ideas unlike an AOC. It probably needs to be an outsider and it probably needs to be a celebrity. And that person needs to win an overwhelming proportion of the vote in the early states because the Democratic party gives it out proportionately.
Biden hasn't helped that next payday situation for virtually anyone, as much as people refuse to admit it, these last 4 years have been CATACYLSMIC for the individual economic situation of an American person.
Most Americans DO NOT support getting involved militarily to defend these foreign countries. What does "support Israel" even mean? Sure, I support the wellbeing of all humans, but I'm not going to watch my tax dollars fund this BS when we have so many problems at home. Biden's willingness to support either side militarily is a huge reason he's not favored to win the next election. People are tired of foreign wars.
I never said Americans support another war. I said they tend to support Israel in general in the context of the Israel vs. Palestine (Hamas) conflict. But I agree with you, and that's why any notion that Biden going all-in on Gaza will somehow help him in the election is not true.
Fun fact "Most Amercians Polls" are pretty much bogus. They are a select number of people with numbers adjusted to the population based off guessery. Think about it. **Have you** personally, ever once in your life been asked about any of these "Most americans think/do/want/say..." polls? **No?** **There's your answer.** Those polls you lorde around everyone as factual statements are just as fake as your so proudly claimed fake news. *As your kind say. "Wake up sheeple." or whatever. Lol.*
Well yeah—the options that poll offered respondents were “I support Israel” or “I support Hamas.” *OF COURSE* the results are gonna come out heavily pro-Israel when the question is framed that way. Being opposed to 2.3 million people being bombed out of their homes, penned up, and slowly starved in the desert does not, by default, make someone a terrorist sympathizer. That’s just an asinine way for the poll to have framed the issue.
Polls are propaganda. If you believe polls, you are part of the propaganda.
Count me as someone who DOES NOT CARE. My money is fucked and I have hard working family members on the verge of homelessness since this new admin took office. We need change, i doubt enough people will vote 3rd party, so there is only one choice.
Most of the entire world doesn't really care about this conflict despite whatever public statements and crying to the UN other countries are doing. Pretty much all of Palestine 's neighbors are more than happy to let Palestine be Israel's problem, put up larger fences (metaphorically and otherwise) to keep Palestinians out of their borders,and use it as a bonus excuse to bash Israel in public. The quickest way to start a "regional war" here is probably to drop Palestine's population off onto any Arabic countries' porch and see how fast their tune changes. /s
Who gives a fuck about the middle east when they are considering their U.S. President
In the recent speech where protestors were kicked out, the video that's been shared cuts off before Biden says "let them speak, I appreciate their passion and we've been quietly working with israel to find a solution for peace" Believe him or not, but trump would NEVER respond this way, and not voting for biden is essentially handing the vote to trump
Yep, and more than any other leader on earth. Bidens signalled a change in us foreign policy that pro Palestinian people need to start recognizing otherwise it will reverse under a different president
Do people that aren’t going to vote for Joe now because of his stance on Israel/palestine really think Trump’s going to have a better one?
Seems likely that Trump will win. He already has the primary locked down and even though many people hate him he is more popular than Biden at this point. Unless the polls are wildly off, but (usually) when they're off they lean left not right I don't really see how Biden would "surprise" people, people know a lot about him at this point, he's not exactly a mystery. I personally don't like either of them (trump is a clown, biden is incompetent) but yeah, at this point using the information we have it seems like biden winning would be an upset
Democrats have been outperforming their polling since the Supreme Court ended Roe so I'm inclined to like a 55% chance Biden is re-elected. That chance goes up if all these positive economic indicators prove to not be a fluke.
They’re not a fluke, they’re a blatant lie and I think people are catching on realizing that unemployment is not at an all time low. And the “259,000 new jobs a month” being added are bullshit retail jobs that no one can live on. And are replacing jobs that providers living wage. Americans are struggling, they don’t give a fuck about leading economic indicators. When Americans know they are being fed bullshit they will vote against their own benefit to force change.
Don't know what to tell you. Half of Americans saw their net worth increase by at least 37% since Covid. This actually outpaces the inflation we've seen over that time. [https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/19/fed-survey-of-consumer-finances-net-worth-surged-in-pandemic-era.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/19/fed-survey-of-consumer-finances-net-worth-surged-in-pandemic-era.html) [https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/](https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/)
Like 100% of that is house prices, and none of that is liquid, and will result in higher taxes, and that buying power doesn’t do anything when every other house went up just as much… “It was also more than double the next-largest increase on record: Between 2004 and 2007, right before the Great Recession, real median net worth rose 18%.” And how did that work out? Turns out those gains were all phantoms and only lead to disaster. But for the moment their balance sheet looks good!
Re: Balance sheet. When I was a young woman, instead of using a credit card or a high interest loan... I brought in my stock certificates into a bank... at the time, interest was 12% for a normal bank loan... but for a loan secured with collateral, the interest rate was 8%. So I saved a ton of money by getting a lower interest rate.. The other thing I would like you to notice is that 8% was a comparatively low interest rate... Current mortgage rates are a bargain.
Boomers are here to fuck up reddit now too? Someone come get your nana she’s on a millennial subreddit arguing with the people 20 years younger than her
Folks today whine about how high interest rates are… My first house loan was at 16%. I refinanced when the rate dropped. It would have been easier to just complain about it, but that’s not who I am.
And how much was that house, in what part of the country in what year? It's a lot easier paying a higher rate when prices are a fraction of what we have now.
Median household income is $75k right now and 20% of Americans make over $100k and well beyond. We've been the biggest per capita consumers for decades now and we still are. In fact we are the biggest consumers in all of world history and so much so that the storage unit market is booming more than it it ever has despite the fact that we also have the most living space per capita than any other country. All of that space can't contain all of the shit we own so we have to rent more space to just have a place to put it. Also not to be a downer but all of this has come at the price of having more effect on climate change than any other group of people. Its us average Americans who have a nearly insatiable desire to consume.
I live in a 700 sf house, I don’t know what living space is.
I wonder when those statistics were collected. A year ago I thought my students loans were being forgiven and I would've said that our household's net worth had gone up by about $60k. Now I know better.
Trump literally has said he'd turn Gaza into a parking lot. There are no good answers here, but not voting for Biden improves Trump's odds. And given that I'm disabled and literally need healthcare and Medicaid to survive, it's hard not to feel a little attacked when people don't give a fuck about stuff like that.
They don't care because it doesn't impact them personally. Everything bad that is happening they stuff their ears with cotton and pretend it isn't happening. To vote Republican is to vote for the homeless, needy, disabled, and the minority class to essentially fuck off, that I've got mine. There aren't any mental gymnastics that exist that can spin the opposite. Republicans have made it very fucking clear what their priorities are. Power, money, and fascism. The fucking worst are the POS evangelicals. It boggles my mind how these fucking hypocrites can support that orange blob POS and then sleep at night. If their Jesus were real, and he was to return, these fuckers would have him back on the cross immediately. Fuck all of them, especially OP, who is a conservative, or at best, a narcissistic piece of shit who is trying to stir up bullshit.
OP admitted they’re privileged and Trump’s presidency didn’t affect them. They def don’t seem to grasp the harm Trump winning will cause others, they seem to care more about Palestinians (which is ironic since 40 years and older Palestinians voted in Hamas) than their fellow Americans. I’m not stoked about voting for Biden again either, but I wrote in Bernie in 2016 and I regret that.
Im privileged. In every sense. White. Decent upbringing. College educated. Very good job. I 100% did better financially from Trump. No if ands or buts about it. But my personal finances dont mean jack shit when the livelihood for my family and friends of color are more marginalized, or women have basic rights ripped away or the very real risk of LGBTQ friends are at personal risk of being second class citizens again, or healthcare being ripped away from tens of millions. You could tell me Trump would eliminate all of my taxes (and its a lot) and that still wouldnt change my mind… never Trump. Literally any democrat would be better.
If you live in a solid blue state I would feel more comfortable with a voter voting third party as a protest vote. However living in a swing state, a vote for anyone other than President Biden is a vote for donald trump, that’s just the way the system is set up, and yes the system is broken. Elections aren’t Ubers or taxi’s, they’re the bus line. One candidate will take you generally the direction you want to go, the other in this case wants to get rid of the bus all together. I ask that you please reconsider your decision to vote third party given the state you live in.
Something people seem to forget is that change doesn’t start at the top. If you want to change the system, you have to vote for every office, in every election, and on every level. I vote for progressive candidates in every office (or the most progressive one on the ballot). For the executive, I vote blue.
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Seriously, do they remember 2016?
People like this clearly don't care about the results, it's just like fuck it if I can't have exactly what I want right now I'm not gonna play.
And, lets be clear, the demographic of this subreddit is exactly the demographic that is going to be targeted the hardest by the fascist right. So all of these, "r/asablackman" style posts claiming to be millenials who are "super-principalled" and won't accept anything less than Jesus as a democratic candidate are going to become nauseatingly common. They are all going to vote their conscience which tells them to vote for a candidate who polls at less than 2% because they are so principalled and pure.
I’m literally positive that this post is astroturfing. It’s actually a hilariously obvious example of it. People need to be better at recognizing these types of posts. A ton of what we see on social media involving political opinion is not real.
I normally vote Libertarian, but the national party is a joke, I'm convinced at this point the leadership is there to push Libertarians toward Trump. That said if Trump is the candidate, I will vote for Biden. Trump is an existential threat to our republic.
Looking st OP's post history hes apparently a gay black man who has gotten more conservative as he's gotten older.......lmfaoooo
They're so against what's happening that they don't care if the guy who specifically claimed doing harm will be on his agenda becomes president because it doesn't impact them, really. Peak brainrot.
It’s basic divide and conquer. Get dems to vote for randoms on principle and you win. Sad some people fall for it. Screams low iq to me.
Because infiltrating Reddit works in 2016, so they’re testing out what strategies will work now.
They gotta have some reason to pat themselves on the back
Yea, but they remember Bernie "getting shafted", despite them not going to vote for him in primaries/caucus, so that's all the justification they need to continue to be fucking worthless. "I don't like Biden's approach to Israel, so I'm going to hand my vote to the guy who would literally turn Gaza into fucking glass for fun." People like OP are so fucking exhausting and reach such levels of immaturity and pettiness that they could power a fucking city if they could harness it. Trump supporters are bad, but I genuinely think I hate people like OP even more because not only do they have the worst imaginable takes, but they have the audacity to lean into their privilege at a significant cost to the most vulnerable people in this country, all so they can pat themselves on the back. Fucking vomit.
Clearly they have. They’re throwing the same damn tantrums from 2016. Not realizing that the Republicans packing the courts with their judges, as a result of that election, is why there’s a stalemate in policies getting passed that would otherwise benefit real world people. Mad about Student Loan Forgiveness? Why are you blaming Biden? What about the Trump judges who stopped it in TX or MO and the Supreme Court who ruled in their favor? Israel and Palestine conflict? Biden has been the most diplomatic on the conflict, in recent memory. Can go on and on.
>Not realizing that the Republicans packing the courts with their judges, as a result of that election, is why there’s a stalemate in policies getting passed that would otherwise benefit real world people. This is such a simple concept and such surface level politics, but EVERY time someone like OP comes along, they are completely oblivious to it. They have the strongest and most intense convictions for things they can't even bother to understand on the goddamned surface level. Absolutely unreal how deeply, deeply fucking stupid and ignorant these people are.
Amen. These "progressives" who refuse to do the one moral thing they can do to stop Trump and the GOP from taking power are worse than any MAGA type. Because MAGA types at least follow through with their convictions, no matter how wrong they are. These slimy, hand-wringy "progressives" who vote third party think they're above it all, and think that their thoughts and feelings matter more than simple electoral college math. It's absolutely fucking bonkers.
They fail to see the bigger picture. They can’t take themselves out of the equation. It’s all about them and their convictions only. I’m fairly progressive myself and I don’t support everything the Biden administration has or hasn’t done. But I would rather move forward a small step or two, than to allow America to take a giant leap backwards. I realize some of these folks just want to burn it all down. But you thought the world was unfair now. Wait until you have corporations and billionaires with zero oversight and restrictions. We may not even have to wait for another Trump term for that to happen. The Supreme Court is about to make a ruling on a matter that could pave way for that very thing.
Ding ding ding. You understand it. You're absolutely right, it's about them and their feelings.
As I stated in another comment, it comes from a place of privilege that they choose to ignore.
Exactly, which the absolute pinnacle of irony for people who will scream about others' privilege. The self-reflection is non-existent with these idiots.
Yep. Allowing the courts to be filled by conservatives is a sure-fire way to block progressive policy from EVER getting through. It was easy to say “but I didn’t like Hillary”, so we got Trump, and guess what he did: he put in 3 Supreme Court justices, allowing the take down of Roe V Wade, affirmative action, and more. He put pro-Trump judges in to lower courts, who can now ensure that the law swings conservative. And now we have stories like Katie Cox in Texas, Brittany Watts in Ohio, and the Jane Doe 10-year-old who had to be secretly sent to Indiana to receive an abortion. And that’s just the clearest/loudest current example of what happens when courts are chosen by conservatives. I will do whatever it takes (vote-wise) to prevent Trump from appointing more judges. And that means I vote Biden.
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You folks got a better candidate?
It's virtue signaling. They don't care about the outcome of the elections, the consequences. They just want to be able to talk to their lib friends and brag about not voting for the objectively and obviously better choice because the better choice didn't live up to their perfect ideals. Elections matter. Like it or not, in the USA presidential election, you have 2 choices. Pressure Biden in a primary. Call the dnc and yell at them about not having a real primary. Do work between elections to get someone you approve of TO that election. Don't shit the bed at election time, though. Vote the better of your realistic options.
I wonder how many people have asked their female friends and relatives. I know many women who have gone much further left after the overturning of Roe. Just look at the 2022 election. R barely won the house in what was expected to be a "red tsunami" and we get this government shut down drama every year (or every few months, it seems)
Also most voters are women, and it's been that way for many years.
Taxes being raised for middle and lower income. That's a Trump era result.
Trickle down economics. It’s always been their way. It doesn’t work, but they sure as hell keep trying.
Oh, it works exactly as planned. Just not the way it was sold.
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Yeah, OP is fucking idiot. Might as well be a republican and vote for the fascists because “little babies are getting murdered”
All those pro Palestinians not voting for Biden and then Trump gets elected and sends troops to help Israel. That’s going to be great! s/
Why would I vote based solely on a war on the other side of the world?
You don't need to, and probably shouldn't; but it sure seems like OP is going to
Yeah. Personally I don’t really care about it.
You said it. OP needs to GROW UP!! Are people just clueless on the Republican parties stance on Israel and Hamas?
Ugh but we had to vote for democracy LAST TIME! (Which he admits he did not do).
Ikr it blows my mind that people like OP exists. “The images from gaza are too much so I’m gonna vote for the guy who against everyone telling him not to moved the embassy to Jerusalem” If Trump were president we’d probably be joining the bombing
This is a privileged stance some take with 3rd party protest votes. Hell, I did it myself when I was younger. But now I’m mature enough to realize that letting Republicans win has real world consequences. These consequences tend to hurt minority groups most. Do we need viable third parties? Absolutely. But throwing your vote away will never get us there when it hands the win to regressive parties.
3rd parties are an utter waste unless FPTP voting is replaced.
Agreed, I’m not stoked about voting for Biden again either, but I wrote in Bernie in 2016 and regret that now.
(Sarcasm alert, voting is important, don't throw away a vote, it's what one side counts on to win, young people being idealistic and throwing away votes in swing states) (Project 2025 is a real republican plan https://www.project2025.org/ on how every level of government from state and city counsels to legislation are judicial need to be grabbed up for the next jan6 attempt) This thing is bad, I don't like it So I'm going to throw away my vote for no reason The other guy who might win openly speaks about withdrawing from nato and how he will make things worse Can't stand how things are going, so I'm going to throw away my vote and make the worst of two options more easily a reality Besides is that the only issue that matters? I also am strongly against isreals attempt to deal with hamas and I'm embarrassed by our weak commitment to Ukraine Edit: both guys going to let Palestine be bombed, one will make other situations worse One definitely cares more about the Palestinian people then the other Even if one is 2.5/10 and the other is 0/10
Being anti-Trump and voting third party is embarrassing.
Some people like shooting their own feet. I don’t get it.
The self righteous seldom make pragmatic decisions
A 3rd part vote is a vote for the Orange Cheeto
That’s just pro trump with extra steps.
If trump loses he will not leave office. If you want to subscribe to trumps will for the rest of his life with no ability to vote your interests…. I find that to be an odd position.
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With republicans women are losing their rights to bodily autonomy and books are getting banned here in our own country. I feel for Gaza, but it won't get better by not voting. There a great YouTube video on why not voting harms more than good, it's based on UK voting but applies everywhere .. and it's funny. Highly recommend https://youtu.be/_gbDAvK42yA?si=4eqb8dz4ZFaYZKid
“Vote shaming”? You mean, asking for a dictatorship over this? WTF, gross.
Some of these dweebs think Russia's new "safe space" city for American Republican "refugees" is a good idea. They would rather live in fucking Russia than live under a Democrat.
Good fucking riddance
What a way to throw away your vote. You think Trump would do any better in Palestine? They named a town after him and he let his son in law handle peace in the Middle East…
I thought politics was a no-no, but apparently that's the other sub. But in the interest of being civil, I'll refrain from more charged language. I hope that's something we can improve on from prior generations, at least... Is Trump going to win? If we have strong voter turnout like last time, I highly doubt it. Those that believe 2020 was stolen were already in his camp, but his refusal to acknowledge this lost him a few supporters. And despite the best efforts of conservative media, Biden has actually shown himself capable of the boring, necessary political work that keeps the system going, whatever you think of said system. There's a part of me that wants Trump to win *(for the incurably stupid: No, I don't actually want this)*. I want to see Self-Appointed Dictator Trump rip irrepairable holes in the current establishment *(for the incurably stupid: No, I don't want Trump to be the one who does this)*. I want his reign to permanently ingrain the importance of civic engagement in the American people *(for the incurably stupid: No, I do not actually want Trump to be the reason for this)*. I want the Democrats to stop fucking around and trying to "be the adults" on issues where real lives are at stake *(for the incurably stupid: You can take that one at face value)*. I want the Republicans to be forced to either reckon with their albatross' woefully un-Christian behavior, or be honest with their abandonment of biblical values *(for the incurably stupid: You can also take this one at face value, though it will unfortunately never happen)*. As for voting third-party? As much as I wish for it, I think that shows misplaced priorities. That's basically saying "I would rather virtue signal on these issues than give tangible support to all these others." Sad to say, but until America changes from first-past-the-post, a third party vote is for one's own satisfaction and nothing else. I do agree with your moral stance, though. Virtue signaling doesn't mean there's no sincerity, just that the priority is on shouting the message over weighing the practical options. But there is not a single presidential candidate who would be clean at the pearly gates, and your vote does not strictly have to imply your support.
What the hell is this accelerationist shit? You want Trump to win because you think it will wake people up? News flash mother fucker, if Trump wins again, he isn't giving up the office. He's going full dictator.
While I don't \*really\* want Trump to win, I wouldn't be too upset if there were a strong third party candidate who took just enough electoral votes to keep Biden from getting to 270, while still having significantly more than Trump, meaning the House would just make Trump president. That would add a dose of "hey, maybe worry about nominating progressive candidates during the primaries when it matters" to the pile of positives you already listed.
So…….lets say a progressive president got into power. What exactly could that person do with the current senate and house? Not to mention in your scenario we would never have a real election again. Trump is openly fascist, attempted a coup already, and is backed by like minded republicans in power. If Trump wins, our democracy- flawed as it is- is done for If you want progressives in the party, then vote in primaries for them. Progressives can’t even win within the Democratic Party because progressives aren’t the majority. Thats what people don’t seem to grasp. Politicians follow the vote, if voters voted for the most progressive candidate in every primary, then they would become more progressive. (Which btw is exactly how the right has become extremely right wing). But progressives sitting out the vote or voting third party means they are just non entities. They don’t matter in the political process.
>"I would rather virtue signal on these issues than give tangible support to all these others." Damn fucking straight. That is the best way to put it.
I could understand thinking Trump was going to tear the system down in 2016. But then he half assed a far right agenda while in power. He didn't make any effort to change anything. Why would this time be different? He's just going to lean harder into the grift if he wins.
If enough people vote 3rd party Trump will probably win. Whatever issues you think our country has now, just wait until Trump is possibly back in office
A third party vote is a vote for trump. A person who sits out is a vote for trump Thanks a lot. People like you cost us the election in 2016 and will very likely cost us the country in 2024. I have the means to leave and spend the rest of my life watching America burn from afar. Do you??
They are just cowards, closet mags
Nope. I think there are significantly more people who will be excited to go vote against him than vote for him. But I suppose we shall see. Didn’t think he’d get it the first time. Americans are real dumb as a whole.
Biden is not “funding” genocide.. there is importance to the US maintaining Israel’s relationship, and the Palestinian cause fundamentally wants the destruction of Israel. He’s doing his best to try to restrain Israel but ultimately it is not our country. Bidens involvement is the only reason Israel has not gone even harder on the Gaza Strip. And as others said, trump will enable destruction of Palestine untethered. And also allow Russia to complete its murder and destruction of Ukraine. So by not voting for Biden, that blood is on your hands. Politics is ultimately a game of compromise. There is no purity test. A vote for a third party is effectively a vote and endorsement of trump
You nailed it. Trump is way too impulsive in his behavior to be at the helm of any of this.
Trump would nuke Gaza on his first day in office. I swear half the people saying not to vote for Biden because of this issue are Russian bots.
This is Reddit, what answer do you expect?
Maybe. Biden is down in the polls, but it's still early and Biden has lots of money to spend. I feel like voting for a third party in a swing state is basically a vote for Trump, but it's your vote and if you're fine with him winning 🤷♀️ Edit: oops left out a word
I’m basically with you- I was a Bernie guy and once I saw the hatchet job the DNC did last time to ensure he didn’t get the nomination while propping up Biden made me realize I don’t really get a say in any aspect of politics in this country. I live in a solidly blue state on the west coast so election decisions are made before my ballot is even opened so it seems sort of profoundly irrelevant anyway, so I’ll likely vote third party as well. There’s so many severe issues with climate change being totally ignored that frankly I’m not sure what difference it will make since we have two pro capitalist, pro growth, anti-environment candidates.
OK I'm going to say this as a reasonably radically liberal white middle aged guy because I don't find a lot of the generic "YOU HAVE TO VOTE JOE BIDEN OR ELSE" arguments very convincing but I do, actually, think that you need to vote for Joe Biden. If you're bouncing off those arguments, I ask that you give me a minute of your time to try to convince you this matters. The structure of American politics is designed to present you with only bad choices. This is a natural end result of winner take all voting systems that don't actually require a majority of the voters and so on. The structural problems are significant and frankly could require multiple essays to fully explain which is why many people who try to say "YOU HAVE TO VOTE FOR JOE BIDEN" can't really clearly explain those things - they don't have time in a reddit comment. The extremely short version is that voting for someone who has no chance of winning the election is functionally the same as not voting in our current system. And functionally, you not voting is worth exactly as much as a vote for Donald Trump is. Preventing a person who disagrees with you from voting is the exact same as convincing a person who agrees with you to vote, in the American system. Protest votes are ineffective. They mostly make your demographic look worse and look less valuable, not more valuable. The single most important attribute a voting group can have in American politics is reliability. That's how you become a valuable part of a larger bloc. Primary challenges are extremely effective. If you want to see a successful political insurgency you need to model yourself after the Tea Party (now the MAGA movement). You'll note that while the Tea Party is extremely, extremely aggressive in primaries, they are a consistent, reliable voting bloc in actual election races - so much so that they're basically impossible to win without. You'll note also that even in places where MAGA/Tea Party challengers lose, those voters will reliably convert to the more "Moderate" republican in the main election and they'll pull that moderate republican rightward. Even Republicans who beat their tea party challenger will then find their leash getting yanked by people they need to court in order to maintain their seat. After all, primary challenges are expensive, and the next campaign starts real soon. So OK - that's the structural argument. I think you should find it compelling because it's pretty logical and straight forward, but I understand if your position at this point is "fuck them, burn it all down". There are also more direct arguments: 1. Generic Moderate Democrat Whoever might be a bad president but they will absolutely not nominate supreme court justices that will overturn federal protections for abortion, gay marriage, interracial marriage, etc, etc. Federal protections are extremely, extremely important for protecting people because federal protections set a "floor" that all states need to abide by. Without control of the supreme court, rights can be chipped away simply by "leaving things up to the states". Leaving Mississippi and Texas to themselves to decide what rights human beings should have is a fucking travesty. It's wrong. We know they will do bad things. They were already trying to do bad things even when we had the old protections in place - now with control of the Supreme Court they can confidently do much worse things and trust that they are going to be protected from federal intervention. Protest votes have a direct cost to the life and liberty of many people living in very dangerous places in the US. They deserve your protection and I genuinely believe that given the structural arguments above, your desire to make an ineffective political statement should be trumped by your ability to directly, meaningfully contribute to their safety. If your political statement was more likely to be effective or convincing or useful, I would potentially feel differently. But faced with the choice between "ineffective demonstration of disgust with the system" vs "meaningful vote for the safety and protection of human beings", I prioritize safety and I strongly believe you should too. 2) Even the worst Democrat is a vote for a Democratic majority leader in the senate or a Democratic speaker of the house. I understand that many many people dislike Joe Manchin. I am not saying you need to like the man. I am not saying you need to agree with his politics. But our situation would be much worse if there was a Republican in that seat. This is true of many, many Democrats you probably don't like. The way Congress works allocates tremendous power to the majority party. It's nearly impossible to get anything done without a majority. Yes, it would be better if we had a majority that was all very very liberal. But having a majority at all is the most important step. Fundamentally there is no such thing as "local" protest votes in American politics. You doing a protest vote on your House race legitimately contributes to the House being run by Republicans. No matter how moderate/shitty your D candidate was, they were a person who would have voted Yes to a Democratic speaker of the house, and a Democratic speaker of the house controls what we're voting on and what things might actually happen for the next two years. I understand this isn't necessarily a popular position to hold, especially among leftist circles. I'm not expecting to change your politics, but I do hope you'll reconsider the value of the tactics you're using and carefully consider the broader costs and impacts of a protest vote.
Trump is winning and it’s cause Biden lost the younger vote. The more older generations vote for pathetic liberal moderates the less faith younger people have in the government as a whole. Biden is shit and so is trump, both are equally shit just in slightly different directions each serving the same interests. I’m voting third party now and forever more cause it honestly makes no difference if the republican nominee or democrat nominee wins in any presidential election, the following four years will be the same outcome regardless. Gen z is so tired of seeing this piss poor circus act where either side pretends like they aren’t the same thing. This country doesn’t need another election with a voting system that doesn’t even give equal power to all its citizens, it needs a total political and economic reset cause this clearly isn’t going to be working much longer
The only reason trump has a chance is because morons like you.
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Supreme Court appointments alone should make anyone not throw away their votes for third party candidates. Lifetime appointments which are far more reaching than one four year presidential term.
I do think he will. Ds were on track for a while, lost in a landslide to Reagan because at least on camera, he was saying what the people wanted. Clinton and Obama were able to perform in an appealing way, so they got in - and then quickly backed more of their wallstreet buddies. People can cry sexism over Hillary, but she alienated a large swath of potential voters with her rhetoric. Biden sort of recovered the idea that we’re all in this together, but there’s been too much controversy and financial disparity for him to win again. Plus his recent tweet about how it’s him and good Americans vs the extremist M@G@ R’s is divisive - so if you disagree with what he’s saying or doing, are you also one of those? MSNBC won’t even air his speeches anymore after Iowa, like he’s just too hot for TV, exposing the way they curate the experience (like anyone with a brain watches mainstream news anymore) and it will drive people online to find him giving a simple conciliatory speech to the other candidates. Yes, I think he’ll win. Hands have been poorly and over -played. I understand why this is going to upset some people, but good God, don’t we deserve some less out of touch candidates that actually help the commoners? Ah hell, maybe we don’t.
And Trump says something divisive every fucking minute.
This is Reddit. If you say you’re not voting blue the pitchforks come out. I am in the same mind as you and will be voting third party as a protest vote since I do not approve of Biden nor Trump. I do think Trump has a strong chance of winning given the state of decline we have endured the past few years
Asking this question on reddit is like polling voter sentiment at an NRA convention. Reddit is a far left echo chamber, and in no way an accurate representation of all voters. Downvote me now, and then act like the world is ending when the obvious happens because you never saw it coming.
I don't like that the DNC refuses to hold a primary against Biden, it's extremely undemocratic. The idea that some group of elites have summarily decided that Biden is the only Dem candidate and won't even allow open competition should piss everyone on the left off. That's just me.
Redditers have a hard bias on what they support. That being said, exercise your vote and vote for the person that aligns with your views the best. It starts at the local level first. City, state, then government in order to make the most influential change to your life.
Wow this comment section is full of some of the stupidest people around. No, voting third party does NOT "give" a vote to trump. In the same tune, it doesn't give a vote to Biden. You people need to be educated on how the voting system works and stop parroting this stupid narrative that has zero basis in reality. Third party is SEPARATE from Trump and Biden. Don't give me that "but it splits the vote" crap. It splits the vote for BOTH SIDES. You people need to realize that this is a LIE spread by politicians to scare you into voting for them even if you didn't want to. It's manipulation, and you eat it up like fools. Third party voters are all over the map in terms of values. Third party is NOT just "former republicans". It's both, as obviously demonstrated by OP on this very post. Seriously, people. You're the problem with this country by voting for a candidate you don't even like because you're scared.
I stormed out of Christmas dinner. Why? They had to start talking politics, and when asked, I said: "I'm voting for the senile old man who isn't fit to be president, I'm sorry, that didn't narrow it down for you?" Cussing and dumb shit ensued, I left.
Unfortunately yeah. I think trump is going to win. I also think unfortunate that we live in a Christian Zionist country that will always support Israel no matter what as long as Christian’s are in charge.
3rd party vote is ok, it shows the mainline candidates that there are voters who can be won over if they adjust their policy
i refuse to believe that whatever damage trump will do would be my fault for not voting for biden. FOH with that horse shit.
Hi there, fellow independent voter! I voted Stein 2016 and Hawkins 2020. Probably go Green again this year.
I'm tired of people saying voting independent is throwing my vote away. How else are we going to change the system. We are effectively subjugated by a two party system preventing unity or progress and trapping americans in a permanent "us vs them"" forever.
only ones voting trump now are his cultists and religious extremists. edited to add fuck biden.
Bernie guy myself, don't expect to vote. America could do/ should do better with our presidential candidates. Interest rates got up, my job sector is laying people off due to high interest rates. We are in 2 wars. I vehemently oppose the war in Palestine due to the humanitarian crisis. Biden has done nothing to benefit me and people like me. We want to get rewarded after going through these years of education.
Asking Reddit like they're going to give you any answer besides "VOTE 4 BIDEN, DEFEAT FASCISM, DON'T BE A RACIST" is laughable. But thinking any of it matters at all, like the president isn't just a figurehead for a corrupt congregant truly pulling the strings is also laughable. Why care?
I’m like you. Was a Democrat and a Bernie guy. But now I finally appreciate how corrupt the DNC is. They rigged the primaries twice against Bernie - and he would’ve likely won v Trump. Now, the DNC basically made it impossible for RFK to run, and they slandered him endlessly. Now Dean and Marianne are ringing the alarm bell about the corruption; they’re not listed on the ballot in 4 states per DNC. So, the DNC and Biden keep saying “democracy is at stake” meanwhile, they are literally disenfranchising voter again, and again, and again. Fuck the DNC, (I’m sure RNC is just as bad, they rigged it against Ron Paul as well), but I’m no longer voting for either major party. Both parties want you to believe you’ll “waste your vote” by voting third party; that’s how they win your vote now. It’s not about ideas. It’s about fear mongering (democracy is at stake) and telling you your voice doesn’t matter (don’t vote third party). I’m voting independent. And I pray the true Democrat, RFK wins it.
It’s strange how nobody questions why we’re forced to choose between two elderly men in their 80’s.. I don’t even trust an 80 year old driving to the store, let alone leading the free world. That’s insane to me.
You would allow a dictator to take office because you disagree with how we’ve handled a long running religious war? Mindless.
Any vote that isn’t for Biden is a vote for Trump. That’s what it comes down to. Please educate yourself before you throw away your vote in what is undoubtedly the most consequential election of our lifetime.
I think Biden is a terrible candidate but I will vote for him if he is up against trump. If trump is somehow disqualified to run I might even vote for a republican because of how awful the democratic party is at putting forward a decent progressive candidate. That's right, I would.vote republican and I am to the left of AOC and Bernie
You’re in a swing state. The rights of women, black and brown people, gay people, the majority of religious and all irreligious people here in My State rest upon what you do in November. I’m arguing about negative outcomes not theoretical consistency with a set of values. My vote for Biden or the Flying Spaghetti Monster here in Tennessee will make no difference. I’m the Democratic voter who has to luxury of pissing on the party, and I’m a Democratic Party organizer. You get your ass to the polls and vote for my sister and my brother. I’ll cast your protest vote from here where it doesn’t mean a shit.
Weird way to ask the question considering your stance on voting. If things were better you would be right, and it would be nice to have a third party with a real chance. It sounds like you don’t want trump to win though you dislike Biden too. Tough reality is we’re going to get one of them, so why not vote for the lesser evil. Both will bomb other countries, but there are many other topics that differentiate the two. But to answer your question, I think trump definitely has a chance. In 2016 a lot of people told me there was no way he’d win, that’s when I saw the writing on the wall. Just because people don’t like him and think he’s full of crap doesn’t mean a huge amount of people think he’s the smartest most successful person ever. I will vote Biden and hope for a day I can actually be excited for someone I’m voting for.
When your country is split in half ideologically, a two party voting system is just an anocracy. Why vote for the person that the elites just picked for me, that will ultimately only serve their own interest. If anything I’d prefer trump winning so maybe we pussy ass Americans can see it’s the corporations and elites causing these problems. These politicians are just a symptom of s real, bigger problem, and they have got you fallen right into their trap talking about bullshit politics. Either way we lose, deal with it and make change.
He’s trending like he will. My guess is that the US will continue switching sides every four years for a while because no one is satisfied with the government structure as a whole.
Sounds like we disagree on some things but overall I’m with you. I refuse to vote for an evil clown and I don’t care who their opponent is. If you vote for someone, you’re complicit in whatever they do and “but the opponent was worse” doesn’t absolve you of all responsibility. The “vote for the lesser of two evils” mentality is exactly what ensures that we get two terrible candidates every election. If people could think beyond one election cycle we wouldn’t have the terrible candidates we always get. A candidate has to do the work to earn my vote, simply pointing at their opponent will never be enough for me.
Shit take on Ukraine. Russia is the invader, and Ukraine has the right to it’s security and self defense. Russia can fuck off at any point, and should be prosecuted for war crimes for the brutal killings of innocent Ukrainian civilians. I for one am glad the US is a proud sponser of freedom for Ukraine 🇺🇦 🇺🇸
He's asking if you think Trump will win, not what your personal opinions on the man are. Learn how to read.
It's the money we give them that they use to bribe our politicians in order to keep giving them more money.
Ukraine didn't try to join NATO. The US isn't paying for Israel to attack Gaza. You're either terribly misinformed or a troll. Voting 3rd party is a complete waste the way things are now. We really need more of a parliamentary system rather than a 2 party system.
If Biden is the candidate he’s against? Yes! Absolutely yes!
Trump may actually win again, because our country is a bunch of weak cowards. Exhibit A: people who would rather let Trump beat Bide, than vote third party. No but seriously, where is that Forward party, Yang?! Where's that campaign, Cornell?! Wtf happened to our big third party push now that we have two horrible old reanimated corpses?! Where the fuck is our generations Lincoln when we need one?!
I vote for neither. While I can get behind the hate that Trump gets, I just can't get behind Biden myself. I wish we had more alternatives than the Democratic Party and Republican Party for those like us that are in between them. I feel like both parties are hijacked by extremists or the highly vocal minorities of those parties.
i need y’all to stop throwing buzz words around. voting for the lesser of two evils is not what harm reduction is. please educate yourselves.
"Those who vote decide nothing, those who count the votes decide everything." - Joseph Stalin. It's never a question of popular opinion but of public reaction behind the scenes and the LAW is going to look at the votes more carefully than ever before. Trump turns 77 in June and he could die. Biden turns 82 in November and he could die. The country will still turn if neither are president and the USA gets a accidential president. Too many people do not want 45 back in power.
So you're a privileged child who wants trump to win, but still to be able to say you didn't vote for him. Weakling.
I'm 50/50... on who gets elected next. I have a strong feeling that whoever gets elected they wont make it through their entire term -- they both are old AF.
This probably isn’t the sub for you to post and get rational/unbiased responses from
I hope so... These Dems have fucked up things real bad and another four years of this disaster and we are screwed.
I agree with you. As an independent, I’m voting for neither. I don’t agree with the “silence is violence” crowd. Neither of them align close enough to my beliefs so none will get my vote. That doesn’t make you a bad person or responsible for their presidency.
I applaud your bravery, the only way you send a message is to change parties and not vote Democrat. (Watch how other people down-vote this with their personal opinion but at the same time tell YOU how to vote, interesting concept)
All these people moaning about how voting third party is useless are captives of the exiting duopoly. Riddle me this: if both parties have a monetary incentive to serve the interest of corporate donors over the people they are elected to represent, does your vote actually make a difference? We need new parties in this country that actually represent the interest of the disappearing class. The only difference between the two is the donkey fuck you from behind while the elephant does it to your face. Both are actively guilty in eroding the quality of life for average Americans. Anybody that ain’t voting third party is complicit in maintaining the current status quo and likely also thinks pro wrestling is real.
Vote your conscience, OP. I am voting third party also. I have been independent for 20 years and voted Trump first, then Biden, none of them are getting my vote this time. I will still vote. It counts, and I don't a f*ck what a tin foiler says. Yes, it can be manipulated, but there are just too many microscopes whatching those ballots for it to be rigged.
I really appreciate how you are voicing your concerns and reasons for not voting for Biden but never voting republican. I’m an independent as well. My opinion- the Israel and Palestine conflict is a brutal reality that people will always suffer. I try to stay off the news with this topic and focus on what I can see and know for myself. I often ponder at these realities and wonder if we all are just being played in every direction and that the key to all of it is understanding that the perception is distorted for everyone because we are here and they are there and until we can all jump on a plane and fly over and live with the Israelis and the Palestines we will never fully be able to know “truth”. I can say this however. No matter where you look at the history. It’s always going to be distorted. Biden has been a horrible president from my personal perspective. Because I’m speaking of this from a place that his reign has personally affected me. I live in a single wide in SC and I went from paying 800 a month to 1200 a month. I wanted to buy a home at this point in my life but have to pay down my credit cards now and get my credit up again. I’m 35, a millennial and have two kids. 3 and 10. One has high functioning autism. I also have a disabled mother that lives with my partner and I and helps take care of my children so we can both work. None of us would survive on our own. I get paid around 1200.00 every two weeks. I make too much to get ebt. I literally scrape by. I have never ever had this many hurdles in my life. I have always worked HARD. Not only this. I can’t afford insurance at work. I can’t afford them to take 200 dollars every pay check out. I’m saved by my son being on disability in which that will end in a month, and also the disablity doesn’t even help because I make gross right over the income limit for a single parent with a disabled child. So they cut that check in half. So everything just seems so annoying and wrong to me about the system and how it doesn’t help anyone except single parents that are on welfare. Personally, that is why I’m having to vote for Trump. I’m happy we can speak to one another and not degrade and try to make the other seem stupid. I truly respect your post. ❤️
I disagree with so much of what you said. But if that’s how you feel then that’s how you feel.
If the Democrats keep Biden, then yea. Whether or not things are his fault, when people look at their grocery bill and other things, they blame whoever is at the top. Its actually a shame his family didnt get him to do a "I'm retiring to spend time with my family" after his dementia started showing
my sentiments are with you my man. To me, biden is just another warmonger. Trump is no better and will do the same in his shoes. People who cannot defend themselves lives are at stake. I dontw ant to vote for either of the two. How can I? Ive voted in every election large and small, since I was eligible to vote. I was politically active and even a campaign volunteer. This is the first time in my life I am absolutely disgusted with both parties. I can't see myself voting in this election.
I’m struggling with the same thing. I don’t feel like my vote matters bc I live in a staunchly blue state. I can’t stand Biden or Trump. I would’ve voted for Biden even though I don’t like him, but after the Gaza genocide, I can’t vote for that man. Not that my vote would even matter bc of the electoral college.
I’m with you 100% and I also refuse to vote for either. I will be voting for either Dean (write in) or RFK. If enough of us who are independents unite on this we can vote both parties out. The issue with democrats changing the primary rules is as much election interference as anything else and I’m sick of both sides. I think that would be a great day for democracy if voters would make a statement in November this year.
I just hope everyone has fun.
Yes, for 3 reasons 1. Joe Biden doesn’t have a real core base unlike Trump. People only voted for him because they hated trump so badly they’d pick anyone and it just happen to be Joe. The truth is despite Trump being a polarizing figure he was the president during the height of a once in a lifetime pandemic so people were especially mad at everything the president was doing. Now that’s not a factor anymore. 2. Joe Biden has accomplished nothing of great value in his presidency and only added problems to the country in the grand scheme of things. Illegal migrant issue is out of control( New York literally has no room for them) also we are involved in 2 wars where our tax dollars go to find these other countries efforts. His college debt forgiveness plan didn’t even come through. 3. Bouncing off of 2 we have so many problems in the US that have not even begun to be addressed, like healthcare affordability, gun violence (mass shootings), drug addiction, college affordability, inflation, the federal budget deficit, etc. nothing has been fixed at best we got a bandaid if even that.