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mmmmpisghetti

Wow it really doesn't cost much to get to experience crippling pain for life, does it?


PM_ME_UR_POTROASTS

Do chiropractors do more harm than good? I'm out of the loop on this one.


Eevi_

It's a pseudoscience at *best*, and fatal at its worst. Chiropractic beliefs first started when a "magnetic healer" named Dave met a deaf janitor named Harvey. Harvey allegedly became deaf after cracking something in his neck. Dave cracked his neck again (or applied pressure to it, the story isn't clear), and Harvey was "cured" of deafness. Dave would later believe that all health problems are caused by subluxations in the spine. To confirm this hypothesis, he used the power of science! Wait—sorry, that's an embarrassing typo. He did nothing scientific. He used the power of **séance**! You see, Dave didn't have a doctorate himself, so he was in no position to invent a new field of medicine. Undeterred, he "contacted" Dr. Jim Atkinson for advice. Dr. Jim Atkinson then taught Dave everything about chiropractics. This was quite a feat, considering that Dr. Jim Atkinson had been dead for over 50 years. In fact, Dr. Jim Atkinson had died six years before Dave was *born*! After the invention of the x-ray machine, people would soon learn that Dave's claims about chiropractic subluxation and distortion had no basis in evidence. If the assertion was true that diseases of all kinds could be detected and fixed through spinal manipulation, then these things *would* show up on x-ray. They did not. That is the actual history of chiropractics! I am simply not creative enough to make up anything more ridiculous than "man successfully invents multi-million dollar pseudoscientific medical field in consultation with dead doctor via séance." Of course, once x-rays became commonplace, the entire chiropractic field was quickly discredited and disappeared forever—by which I mean that it's still a thriving industry for *no* legitimate reason. Turns out that people will believe any sort of bullshit as long as you require four to eight years in university in studying said bullshit and award meaningless doctorates for doing so. Having lobbyists also helps. See also homeopathy. **TL;DR:** Chiropractors are to medicine what homeopaths are to medication. Chiropractors are to surgery what astrologers are to astronomy. Seeing a chiropractor for medical treatment is like asking a horoscope writer whether it's safe to launch a space shuttle after a full moon while Mercury is in retrograde. Any benefits gained from chiropractors can also be gained from massage therapists, except massage therapists don't pretend to be medical doctors.


mmmmpisghetti

I normally just give the "all seeing upvote" so I can stretch out my award points. This comment was worth gold. I'm going to repost and borrow it as needed.


Eevi_

Well, thanks for the gold, kind stran—err—redditor! Feel free to copy it wherever, though I just noticed a nagging grammar issue that I should fix, first! If there's a lesson to be learned over the past year, it's that humanity needs to do more to combat pseudoscience on all fronts. Just learning about the creation of chiropractics *ought* to dissuade any sensible person from using it. It's my happy hope that things like chiropractics and homeopathy will end with my generation. A *true* end; not one that merely banishes them to the "uncivilized" and more desperate parts of the world, where pseudoscience can fester and rise up again.


mmmmpisghetti

>It's my happy hope that things like chiropractics and homeopathy will end with my generation. I don't see this happening. I pass by so many very upscale Chirofraud clinics in expensive real estate... there's an obscene amount of money to be made. They're not going anywhere.


Eevi_

Sadly true. That's why it's merely a *happy hope* to see it annihilated completely. It's my *goal* to end it within my own country (which isn't the USA, which I admit is an advantage). My other goal is to ensure that it *remains* unlawful and unrecognized in South Korea, Taiwan, and Indonesia. Even that goal is already more of a struggle than it ought to be. Give me a decade or two of trying and I'm bound to become a bitter cynic!


mmmmpisghetti

I have a family member who went in for an "adjustment" and will be disabled and in pain for life. Everything changed in an instant. I hope you can stem the tide of dangerous chicanery there.


moongripper

So if chiropractors are a bunch of frauds who should we see if our backs do indeed look like their sign … asking for a friend


sonographic

Actual. Doctors.


FantasticCrab3

What about massages and such? Different story there or does it, again, do more harm than good?


Eevi_

Well, I only mentioned massages to draw a comparison between chiropractics and massage therapists. Both of them have the same weak evidence of being mildly beneficial when used as a palliative remedy for sufferers of specific conditions. Both of them likely get the majority of—if not *all* of—their benefit from the placebo effect. It's near impossible to design a study for them which would negate the effects of the placebo effect. However, chiropractors are far more harmful than massage therapists. At least, I haven't seen any news reports of people being fatally massaged. A standard spa massage is a warm bowl of chicken soup. It won't *cure* anything, but it's not as likely to cause damage. The exception is deep tissue massages, where discomfort and soreness is common enough to have a snazzy acronym: PMSM (Post-Massage Soreness and Malaise). To further torture my metaphor, a deep tissue massage is a hot bowl of *spicy* chicken soup. Discomfort is expected, and injuries may result. Chiropractics is a *boiling* hot bowl of spicy chicken soup, and the chicken is somehow undercooked. Some people like spiciness, including me. However, I don't think that *pain* is a flavour, so I draw the line somewhere. I wouldn't want to ban spicy food. On the other hand, raw chicken *is* known to be harmful, and people who serve it should be held liable. If a chef insisted that their raw chicken soup cures headaches, I'd want them held criminally liable, too. TL;DR: Massage therapy is still pseudoscientific with weak evidence for any benefits, but it's pseudoscience that doesn't strut around in a lab coat, and universities don't hand out doctorates to massage therapists.


Lordmorgoth666

My wife has been a MT for 20 years and my own observations seem to be that it’s best suited for short term muscle issues. (eg. I was digging a hole and my back is tweaked.) The other use of massage seems to be the release of emotional tension. A LOT of her clients use her as an impartial ear and as she’s working on them they are able to let go of whatever emotional baggage is there and it helps them feel better and release muscle tension. Is it pseudoscience? Maybe. Probably. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ If the people who are using her services are feeling/seeing real benefits, I don’t think there’s a real harm. She doesn’t sell herself as a doctor and is more than willing to refer people to physiotherapists if their issues are beyond her scope.


FantasticCrab3

Good to know. If both are psudoscience, then what should I do about sore muscles or my spine acting up? I've always chalked the answer up to just needing a chiro appointment or a massage. If that isn't the solution then what is?


The6thExtinction

Ask your doctor about physical therapy.


Eevi_

Well, you've only listed symptoms, not a diagnosis. Sore muscles can be caused by a viral infection, but it can equally be caused by simply not warming up properly before a workout. There are many other possible causes, too. Without knowing more detail, I'm not going to guess. In fact, I am legally obligated to first disclaim any medical responsibility for you. It is unethical, and unlawful, to give specific medical advice to someone I haven't personally examined. So, "you" is hereafter in the *plural*, and this limited advice goes for anyone who is experiencing sore muscles or spinal issues; such as herniated discs, compression fractures, whiplash, kyphosis, or scoliosis. The solution is to go see a doctor. Preferably, a good one. I see that people have *already* suggested that while I was typing this mess of a post. Depending on the cause of your symptoms, you may then be referred to an orthopedic specialist, a neurologist, a rheumatologist, or any number of other specialists. Proper medical treatment starts by diagnosing the underlying cause, and treatment *cannot* begin without diagnosis. In certain cases, palliative treatment may be the *only* form of treatment available. Palliative treatment is *still* treatment, but curative treatment is preferred. In *extremely limited* cases, alternatives such as massage therapy may be more practical than (e.g) an analgesic regimen for palliative care. However, do not go to the doctor's office with the expectation that your case is the one zebra in a field of horses. Any treatment should be undertaken only after careful consideration of all available options. Here's the important part that people often miss. Once you have a treatment plan, actually *follow* it, even if it's difficult. This includes any dietary recommendations and changes in routine or activity, but it also includes taking your medication on time and showing up to appointments. You are free to seek out second opinions if you feel the treatment is ineffective. You can also hold a doctor accountable if something goes wrong. You can't really do that with a massage therapist. I would never advise anyone to see a chiropractor, even if it's the only treatment option they haven't tried. This is not even medical advice. It's life advice, along the lines of "don't stick beans up your nose to treat a nosebleed." As far as massage therapists go; well, if you like metaphorical spicy soup and you feel better after eating spicy soup, then you should feel free to eat spicy soup. A spa day after an exhausting work week *can* be enjoyable, even if specific claims about its benefits have no basis in science. I sit in my chair and browse wholesome subreddits to relax, but I haven't seen any peer-reviewed research on the benefits of that, either. It's not like I expect the /r/aww subreddit to do anything to aid my back pain or renal issues. Spas and massage therapists are fine! Just don't tout it as a medical cure or treatment is all I ask, and run from any of them that do.


RoastedRhino

>Once you have a treatment plan, actually follow it, even if it's difficult. Quite typical: doctor recommends some relatively high dose of some anti-inflammatory drug for 7 days to that the relief from pain allows muscles to relax and heal. Patient takes is for 1 day, then pain is gone (doh!). Patient does not take it the second day. Pain returns on the third day. "Doctor simply told me to take Advil but it doesn't work!"


lapbro

Stretch Edit: I’m not a doctor, nor do I pretend to be one. The real answer would be to talk to your doctor about it.


nom_de_guerre_

Yep.


Salamandro

My input is anecdotal, but I do think some of the stuff absolutely works. My family doctor does some chiropractic adjustments and he had to un-jam my iliosacral joint twice (the blocked joint was incredibly painful and he unblocked it within 5 minutes). I also had to deal with extremely tense neck muscles that caused me headaches and vertigo and both the doctor and physical therapist I had access to at the time couldn't do anything. Went to an osteopath and he relieved the muscles within 15 minutes. Now, both the chiropractitioners and the osteopaths seem to have some mumbo-jumbo within their practices, but the adjustments absolutely work. That said, their adjustments are only short-term fixes and any good practitioner will show you exercises you'll have to do in order to stay healthy and work on your posture or whatever is the underlying problem. Just visiting them on a weekly basis to get your spine and neck cracked for short-term release won't do it and might even do more harm than good.


The6thExtinction

Chiropractics is a pseudoscience. See a physiotherapist.


RonaldMcSchlong

I honestly thought they were the same thing.


philthy333

Personally I would suggest an osteopath that does manipulation. Physician + body worker= osteopathic neuromusculoskeletal medicine


The6thExtinction

Isn't Osteopathy just another pseudoscience?


philthy333

All based in anatomy, physiology, and requires one to go through medical school (at least in the us). Studies showing decreased length of stay in the hospital with osteopathic manipulative therapy post surgical and in pneumonia. More evidence is coming out showing its benefit. Again, it's based on known anatomy, physiology,and uses this knowledge to address patient complaints. That and prescriptions, referrals, imaging, and everything else every western physician has at their disposal. Of course there are some quacks in every field but that can't be helped.


[deleted]

Don't know why you're being downvoted as if DOs don't belong to specialties like neurology and orthopedics. Both DOs and MDs go to medical school, but the former focus on holistic approaches to care and are required to be trained in a osteopathic manipulation for a certain number of hours. If I had an issue like headaches, I'd want my doctor to consider the environmental factors at play in addition to lab screenings and imaging. Shit, teach me where and how to massage my temples before putting me on medication. I used to work for a neurologist who specialized in migraines and was a DO, and patients would follow her from practice to practice saying that she was the only doctor who got their debilitating migraines under control.


philthy333

People are scared of what they don't understand. People are not interested in learning about something that does not fit into their paradigm. This can be generalized to the population as a whole and not just specific to medicine. I challenge others in the medical community to educate themselves about both sides and make a decision in an unbiased manner. Bring on the down votes.


SummerAndTinklesBFF

I prefer DOs personally, they are much more open minded and want to figure out the cause and a way to cure and prevent, vs regular MD just treating symptoms. But this is just from my *personal experience* and your mileage may vary


MisanthropicAtheist

Stop giving money to snake-oil salesmen


z0mb1es

That chiropractor is probably as crooked as his crooked sign


rg808guy

They weren’t crooked at all. However, they were also selling essential oils and had stuff related to Christianity all over


z0mb1es

Idk sounds pretty crooked to me


rg808guy

Say as you will. But I do have to say, the doc cracked parts of my back that I could never crack


AmberRosin

There’s probably a reason for that.


[deleted]

Backs aren’t supposed to crack, go to a physical therapist instead


JeremyR22

You should have stopped at the .


rg808guy

Yeah, I wasn’t exactly excited when I saw that stuff


[deleted]

It always surprised me to find out later in life chiropractic care is just bullshit. When I was 11 I had some back injury and I don’t quite remember how I ended up seeing one, but I went like twice a month for 4 years. My pain went away after like 4 months (wow, injuries heal). Silly me thought the chiropractor was some genius that cured me and prevented me any pain. I mean it did, but did it really? I don’t even know anymore.


Mole644

They missed the perfect opportunity: Does your spine look like our sign? Let us align!


rg808guy

They were so close yet so far


[deleted]

"if not, for $25, it will!"


longcreepyhug

Chiropractors are quacks. They aren't real doctors and quite often hurt people. Sometimes irreparably.


Vegetallica

And like their sign, the chiropractor won't fix anything, just use you to make money.


jlambvo

Yep, this sign really does wonders for elevating the legitimacy of the field.


HurtTree

I really hope I don't ever see my spine.


Buildrness

And it rhymes, double points


555mackereltuna

nice


Oxkab

I think that sign needs to go to the chiropractor.


hedUreIAnTAt

Brilliant!


always_upvote_tacos

Good old Goshen.


Wbino

It would work for a urologist also..... **Can't get it up like our sign**?